Airlines & IDs [was RE: Amtrak & The War On Drugs]
> Ralph Wallis[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > On Tuesday, 24 Apr 2001 at 16:13, Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > However, it used to be SOP to buy train tickets at the ticket > > window--for cash and with no I.D. or phone numbers or SS numbers or > > forehead marks. > > > > It looks like the "temporary measures" to combat the "TWA 800 > > bombing" sorts of events, even though TWA 800 almost certainly wasn't > > a bombing, are now spreading to the trains. > > I just read Database Nation, which notes that this was an immediate > result of TWA 800 and the Atlanta Olympic bombing. (Along with similar > policies for air travel.) > > So it's not a sign of spreading. Since Atlanta was 5 years ago, > it's not a temporary measure either. > I think you've both been blindsided as to the true reason why airlines ask for ID. While the FAA did for a while (after the TWA 800 crash) suggest that airlines ask for ID, it's my understanding that at no time was it actually a regulatory requirement (I'd welcome actual cites to the contrary.) My understanding is this: 1. It is not a regulatory requirement for an airline passenger in the US to produce identification. 2. In fact, it's a violation of the airline's common carrier status for them to do so - they must admit anyone who shows up with a valid ticket. The ticket is a bearer instrument. 3. Regardless of the legalities, US airlines will usually request ID. If you refuse, and stand your ground, and can cite the appropriate common carrier regs, and show that they can't cite any regulatory requirement, they in fact WILL let you fly without ID. However, doing so involves moving far up beyond the counter-droids to superdupervisors, calls to corporate legal counsel, and unfriendly attention from airport security. While you would win in the end, you will almost certainly have missed your plane. 4. The reason airlines do this has nothing to do with security, and everything to do with extracting the max from your wallet Before these regs existed, and citizen units rightfully refused to let themselves be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered to the extent they do today, the bearer instrument status of the tickets allowed people who traveled often to save money. It worked like this: In the US, unscheduled, immediate travel ticket prices are extremely expensive. On American Airlines, an unrestricted Boston to San Francisco coach return ticket is over $2400 if I leave today and return tommorrow. If I book a month ahead and stay over the weekend, it's a tad over $400, a $2000 dollar savings. Companies with lots of predictable travel (for example, one with offices near Boston and San Francisco) would buy 'John Doe' tickets a month ahead, scheduled for over-weekend stays. A traveller would go to the travel office, and pick up an outbound and return ticket (from different original trips) with dates and times which suited him, and execute his business trip at a fraction of the cost of it would have if he'd bought his ticket in the naive manner. By hassling travellers who try to use tickets with someone elses name, and lying that it is illegal to do so, airlines have greatly cut down on this cost saving strategy. If you're going to make more than one business trip between the same cities on predictable dates in the next year, you can still execute this strategy on a personal level, but it requires planning. So don't believe the lies of the airline spinmeisters. The only security they are enhancing is that of their bottom line. Peter Trei
RE: Airlines & IDs [was RE: Amtrak & The War On Drugs]
Peter wrote: > My understanding is this: > > 1. It is not a regulatory requirement for an airline > passenger in the US to produce identification. > > 2. In fact, it's a violation of the airline's common carrier > status for them to do so - they must admit anyone who > shows up with a valid ticket. The ticket is a bearer > instrument. > ... How about a citation? S a n d y
RE: Airlines & IDs [was RE: Amtrak & The War On Drugs]
At 12:51 PM -0700 4/25/01, Woody Patterson wrote: >--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> It's just as easy today- at least for one-ways. Just have the >> individual >> with the ID check in and hand the ticket to you. I've done it a >> million >> times. >> Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com > >Just don;t do it on United Airlines. In several airports, there are >cameras behind the check-in counter that take a photo of you when you >check in. This photo is available on a computer screen at the gate to >any employee of the airline that cares to look. Boarding for all flights I have taken in the past several years--Southwest, American, United--has been so hectic and rushed that no stewardess is bothering to compare the boarding passes to photos! In the case of Southwest, the boarding passes are of course not even associated with a person: they are just numbered pieces of plastic. (Yeah, I _suppose_ some sufficiently determined adversary could be recording that "Boarding Pass # 37" was handed to "Alice Smith" and that the photo of the person handing in # 37 does not match the photo taken at the ticket check-in counterI guarantee this is not happening UNLESS Southwest has been tipped-off and is cooperating with FBI or DEA types.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
RE: Airlines & IDs [was RE: Amtrak & The War On Drugs]
At Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:29:29 -0400, "Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Sandy Sandfort[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote >> >> Peter wrote: >> >> > My understanding is this: >> > >> > 1. It is not a regulatory requirement for an airline >> > passenger in the US to produce identification. >> > >> > 2. In fact, it's a violation of the airline's common carrier >> > status for them to do so - they must admit anyone who >> > shows up with a valid ticket. The ticket is a bearer >> > instrument. >> > ... >> >> How about a citation? >> >> S a n d y >> >That's a fair request. > >It looks like I can confirm assertion 1, but >am (now at least) probably wrong on assertion 2. > >See: >http://cas.faa.gov/faq.html > >-start quote--- > >Q. Do I have to have a photo ID to fly? > >A. The FAA does not prohibit the airline from transporting any passenger >who does not >present a photo ID. Airlines have available to them alternate procedures >that allow them to >transport passengers without ID. However, some airlines choose not >to >use such >procedures, which is their prerogative. > >Q. Why didn't the airline ask for my ID? > >A. The FAA does not require all passengers to present ID. The FAA >requires that airlines >apply additional security measures to passengers who are unable >to >produce ID upon >request. > >-end quote--- > > >I know that in the pre-TWA800 days, it was common to travel on >tickets issued to another name than one's own. I did so on numerous >occasions. Of course, the airlines hated people saving money in this >manner. It's just as easy today- at least for one-ways. Just have the individual with the ID check in and hand the ticket to you. I've done it a million times. Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com
RE: Airlines & IDs [was RE: Amtrak & The War On Drugs]
> Sandy Sandfort[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote > > Peter wrote: > > > My understanding is this: > > > > 1. It is not a regulatory requirement for an airline > > passenger in the US to produce identification. > > > > 2. In fact, it's a violation of the airline's common carrier > > status for them to do so - they must admit anyone who > > shows up with a valid ticket. The ticket is a bearer > > instrument. > > ... > > How about a citation? > > S a n d y > That's a fair request. It looks like I can confirm assertion 1, but am (now at least) probably wrong on assertion 2. See: http://cas.faa.gov/faq.html -start quote--- Q. Do I have to have a photo ID to fly? A. The FAA does not prohibit the airline from transporting any passenger who does not present a photo ID. Airlines have available to them alternate procedures that allow them to transport passengers without ID. However, some airlines choose not to use such procedures, which is their prerogative. Q. Why didn't the airline ask for my ID? A. The FAA does not require all passengers to present ID. The FAA requires that airlines apply additional security measures to passengers who are unable to produce ID upon request. -end quote--- I know that in the pre-TWA800 days, it was common to travel on tickets issued to another name than one's own. I did so on numerous occasions. Of course, the airlines hated people saving money in this manner. Peter
RE: Airlines & IDs [was RE: Amtrak & The War On Drugs]
> Tim May[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > At 12:51 PM -0700 4/25/01, Woody Patterson wrote: > >--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> It's just as easy today- at least for one-ways. Just have the > >> individual > >> with the ID check in and hand the ticket to you. I've done it a > >> million > >> times. > >> Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com > > > >Just don;t do it on United Airlines. In several airports, there are > >cameras behind the check-in counter that take a photo of you when you > >check in. This photo is available on a computer screen at the gate to > >any employee of the airline that cares to look. > > Boarding for all flights I have taken in the past several > years--Southwest, American, United--has been so hectic and rushed > that no stewardess is bothering to compare the boarding passes to > photos! > > In the case of Southwest, the boarding passes are of course not even > associated with a person: they are just numbered pieces of plastic. > (Yeah, I _suppose_ some sufficiently determined adversary could be > recording that "Boarding Pass # 37" was handed to "Alice Smith" and > that the photo of the person handing in # 37 does not match the photo > taken at the ticket check-in counterI guarantee this is not > happening UNLESS Southwest has been tipped-off and is cooperating > with FBI or DEA types.) > > --Tim May > The bit Declan put in Wired today about the '4th Information Hiding Workshop', which contains some relevant material. Towards the end of the article, he notes: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,43355,00.html -- start quote [...] Convenience can also lend itself to anonymity. Starting about a decade ago, U.S. airlines began to check travelers' identification before letting them board a flight. But to stave off long lines, U.S. Airways now offers electronic check-in services at some airports. The automated kiosks allow travelers -- at least those not checking luggage -- to select their seat assignment and board the plane after inserting a frequent flyer card. No government-issued identification or credit card is necessary. "What's so encouraging about this is that even the most respectable companies see nothing socially stigmatizing about offering these options," said Rosen, the Georgetown University professor. "It's extremely encouraging since it shows what an American value privacy is and how many people will (buy it)." -- end quote Now, this isn't perfect - I suspect it only works for e-tickets, which have already been bought through an identifiable credit card, but it breaks the link between who buys the ticket, and who turns up at the airport. Note that someone who has a FF card is actually motivated to loan it out, since he'd get credited with the FF points. Sigh... Anyone remember People Express? You could get in line, get on the plane, and pay in-flight with cash (it was very cheap). No reserved seats, giant overhead bins for luggage. No IDs required. Now, *that* was private travel, circa 1980. Peter Trei
Re: Airlines & IDs [was RE: Amtrak & The War On Drugs]
I believe at least one FOIA request has been pending for the exact FAA rule. I wrote about this a few years ago and asked the FAA to clarify its position, and I never heard anything authoritative. In a recent article, I pointed out that the trend is shifting: You can now use kiosk check-in in some airlines and avoid showing photo ID. -Declan On Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 12:12:25PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > 1. It is not a regulatory requirement for an airline > passenger in the US to produce identification. > > 2. In fact, it's a violation of the airline's common carrier > status for them to do so - they must admit anyone who > shows up with a valid ticket. The ticket is a bearer > instrument. > > 3. Regardless of the legalities, US airlines will usually > request ID. If you refuse, and stand your ground, and can > cite the appropriate common carrier regs, and show that > they can't cite any regulatory requirement, they in fact > WILL let you fly without ID. However, doing so involves > moving far up beyond the counter-droids to superdupervisors, > calls to corporate legal counsel, and unfriendly attention > from airport security. While you would win in the end, > you will almost certainly have missed your plane. > > 4. The reason airlines do this has nothing to do with > security, and everything to do with extracting the max > from your wallet > > Before these regs existed, and citizen units rightfully > refused to let themselves be pushed, filed, stamped, > indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered to the extent > they do today, the bearer instrument status of the > tickets allowed people who traveled often to save money. > > It worked like this: > > In the US, unscheduled, immediate travel ticket prices are > extremely expensive. On American Airlines, an unrestricted > Boston to San Francisco coach return ticket is over $2400 > if I leave today and return tommorrow. If I book a month > ahead and stay over the weekend, it's a tad over $400, a > $2000 dollar savings. > > Companies with lots of predictable travel (for example, > one with offices near Boston and San Francisco) would > buy 'John Doe' tickets a month ahead, scheduled for > over-weekend stays. A traveller would go to the > travel office, and pick up an outbound and return > ticket (from different original trips) with dates and > times which suited him, and execute his business > trip at a fraction of the cost of it would have if > he'd bought his ticket in the naive manner. > > By hassling travellers who try to use tickets with > someone elses name, and lying that it is illegal > to do so, airlines have greatly cut down on this > cost saving strategy. > > If you're going to make more than one business > trip between the same cities on predictable dates > in the next year, you can still execute this strategy > on a personal level, but it requires planning. > > So don't believe the lies of the airline spinmeisters. > The only security they are enhancing is that of > their bottom line. > > Peter Trei
