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(url) BBC story w/more details on UK mandatory ID, biometrics proposals
url for that was: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1559000/1559245.stm Subject: BBC story w/more details on UK mandatory ID, biometrics proposals The home secretary indicated on BBC One's On the Record programme that his personal view was that a voluntary scheme would be pointless.
BBC story w/more details on UK mandatory ID, biometrics proposals
The home secretary indicated on BBC One's On the Record programme that his personal view was that a voluntary scheme would be pointless. --- Xeni Jardin [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.xeni.net | YIM: xeni_jardin Monday, 24 September, 2001, 04:55 GMT 05:55 UK ID cards 'high priority' for government The UK government is considering making identity cards compulsory as part of a crackdown on terrorism. But Home Secretary David Blunkett says he will not be rushed into making a snap announcement on cards or any other anti-terror measures. He said: I'm giving it a fairly high priority in terms of the discussions and the consideration behind the scenes. There are much broader issues about entitlement and citizenship and not merely security in terms of some form of identity card which we are looking at very seriously indeed. He also maintained that improvements in electronic thumb or fingerprint technology or even iris-prints meant the threat of forgery would not make the system redundant. ...
UK ministers want mandatory nat'l. IDs, iris-scans, biometrics for anti-terror
...from Monday's Sunday Times UK. --- Xeni Jardin [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.xeni.net | YIM: xeni_jardin MONDAY SEPTEMBER 24 2001 Blunkett wants ID cards for all BY MELISSA KITE, STEWART TENDLER AND DANIEL MCGRORY http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001331435,00.html RIGID security measures, including compulsory identity cards for all Britons, are being drawn up by ministers as part of the global war against terrorism. David Blunkett, the Home Secretary, confirmed yesterday that tough legislation, which could breach human rights laws, would be brought before MPs soon. Britain, he said, must throw down the gauntlet to terrorists as never before. The proposed legislation is thought to include increased powers of arrest for the police to interrogate suspects and moves to abolish some rights of judicial appeal for immigrants turned back at airports. Police may be allowed to arrest people suspected of having knowledge about terrorism, simply to interrogate them. Legislation to allow transcripts of telephone conversations bugged by MI5 to be used as evidence in court is also reported to be under consideration. Mr Blunkett confirmed that identity cards were being considered very seriously indeed. Asked whether they would be voluntary or compulsory, he said: I think a voluntary card in the present circumstances would not be a great deal of help. Speaking on the BBCs On the Record programme, Mr Blunkett said that at least three anti-terror Bills would introduce a range of new police powers, including the increased powers of arrest. Compulsory ID cards would use the latest technology, by scanning the iris of the eye or using thumb or finger-printing. ...
Selected quotes from Keyser-Soze
Indeed it may have to be fought through the crosshairs... Time to show Ellison who the real threats to his personal safety are... Its time to water the tree... Only cowards worry about possible punishment. If this be terrorism, make the most of it! It seems quite a few have been making payments lately...eh? Will someone publish the home address of the prosecuting attorney and judge issuing the warrant? (Plus, numerous political identifying rants.) --- I've completed my psychological profile, and I'm left wanting. Maybe if I resort to astrology Keyser, what sign were you born under? ~Aimee
Re: FC: Frank Sudia's anti-crypto stand: Razor blade genie is outof bottle
On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: From: Frank Sudia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Carl Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The Razor Blade Genie is Out of the Bottle huge snip The legislative power of the people (not me, the crypto guys are the megalo maniacs) could disable every existing copy of PGP. With all due respect here, do you honestly believe this, or are you using this as a rhetorical device? Taken literally, this is an almost incomprehensible display of naivete... Outlawing is not equal to disabling. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place...
Re: CDR Anonymizer cpunks_anon@einstein.ssz.com ?
-- Karsten M. Self IF you are a United States Citizen or Resident and YOU HAVE SUFFERED A FINANCIAL LOSS write Financial Loss - Contact Me ASAP on the documents you have received and Fax them to the Task Force at 202-406-6930 and give Your telephone number(s). A Secret Service Agent will call you back as soon as possible to discuss the matter with you (don't worry, you're Not in any trouble). Tim May: Or you can just use the Short Form: I'm a greedy fool ... Karsten M. Self ...neatly sidestepping the fact that fraud is a crime, stupidity isn't. If anyone sends money to the scamsters, the scamsters deserve it more than he does. Note that in most versions of this scam, the promised riches are covered in blood, and the scammer depicts himself as a vicious criminal. Anyone sucked into this scam is both stupid and evil. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG cjd9nI7SW8+HjJLM+lnqNcoIXEP/4piwKo02nk6V 4mhhDh7U1tZO21297SPdqhQxH5XBL2IK1OephbLs1
Stock Tip of the Day
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Re: Expectation of privacy in public?
on Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 07:16:03AM +0200, Anonymous ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: For the lawyers and lawyer larvae out there... In an article in the San Francisco Bay Guardian this week, there is an article about MUNI's policy of making audio recordings of passengers. quote Nathan Ballard of the City Attorney's Office told the Bay Guardian that they were well aware of the policy and approved it. There are no expectations of privacy in public, he said. Ballard asserted that the policy was constitutional and did not fall under any wiretapping laws. When asked if all of the vehicles that employ this surveillance policy post signs to inform passengers that their conversations are being recorded, he said, This policy does not require signs. /quote Frankly, if I'm sitting in the back of an empty bus, talking to the person next to me, it's my opinion that there certainly is a reasonable expection of privacy. Does anyone more qualified than I care to tell me why I'm right or wrong? Jeffrey Rosen's _The Unwanted Gaze: the destruction of privacy in America_ is a good general read on this topic, and is generally recommended. It doesn't cover the issue of privacy in public in depth, though the issue is really more one of moving anonymously (or at least largely unrecorded) through public spaces. Rosen does discuss privacy at home and at work, and in cyberspace. The index doesn't specifically list public spaces, though there's some discussion of anonymity. Brandeis and Warren wrote a law review article in 1890 in the _Harvard Law Review_. Rosen does touch on expectations of privacy in public spaces: In _The Unbearable Lightness of Being, Milan Kundera describes how the police destroyed an important figure of the Prague Spring by recording his conversations with a friend and then broadcasting them as a radio serial. The other interesting discussion is of the Olmstead case (the original wiretap case). I would raise objections on the basis of the Fourth and Forteenth Amendments. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of Gestalt don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Ellison, National ID discussion on Slashdot
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/09/23/2235219mode=thread Most of it's not very deep... will you divest? yes Two months ago would have been better :-) http://www.schwab.com/SchwabNOW/navigation/mainFrameSet/0,4528,529|3283,00.html They've gone from about 20 to 10.7
FW: Registration Request for boycottoracle.com Received.
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No Regrets About Developing PGP
C'punks, Phil Zimmermann asked me to post this. He would like it freely disseminated, so feel free to post it wherever you wish. S a n d y -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 No Regrets About Developing PGP The Friday September 21st Washington Post carried an article by Ariana Cha that I feel misrepresents my views on the role of PGP encryption software in the September 11th terrorist attacks. She interviewed me on Monday September 17th, and we talked about how I felt about the possibility that the terrorists might have used PGP in planning their attack. The article states that as the inventor of PGP, I was overwhelmed with feelings of guilt. I never implied that in the interview, and specifically went out of my way to emphasize to her that that was not the case, and made her repeat back to me this point so that she would not get it wrong in the article. This misrepresentation is serious, because it implies that under the duress of terrorism I have changed my principles on the importance of cryptography for protecting privacy and civil liberties in the information age. Because of the political sensitivity of how my views were to be expressed, Ms. Cha read to me most of the article by phone before she submitted it to her editors, and the article had no such statement or implication when she read it to me. The article that appeared in the Post was significantly shorter than the original, and had the abovementioned crucial change in wording. I can only speculate that her editors must have taken some inappropriate liberties in abbreviating my feelings to such an inaccurate soundbite. In the interview six days after the attack, we talked about the fact that I had cried over the heartbreaking tragedy, as everyone else did. But the tears were not because of guilt over the fact that I developed PGP, they were over the human tragedy of it all. I also told her about some hate mail I received that blamed me for developing a technology that could be used by terrorists. I told her that I felt bad about the possibility of terrorists using PGP, but that I also felt that this was outweighed by the fact that PGP was a tool for human rights around the world, which was my original intent in developing it ten years ago. It appears that this nuance of reasoning was lost on someone at the Washington Post. I imagine this may be caused by this newspaper's staff being stretched to their limits last week. In these emotional times, we in the crypto community find ourselves having to defend our technology from well-intentioned but misguided efforts by politicians to impose new regulations on the use of strong cryptography. I do not want to give ammunition to these efforts by appearing to cave in on my principles. I think the article correctly showed that I'm not an ideologue when faced with a tragedy of this magnitude. Did I re-examine my principles in the wake of this tragedy? Of course I did. But the outcome of this re-examination was the same as it was during the years of public debate, that strong cryptography does more good for a democratic society than harm, even if it can be used by terrorists. Read my lips: I have no regrets about developing PGP. The question of whether strong cryptography should be restricted by the government was debated all through the 1990's. This debate had the participation of the White House, the NSA, the FBI, the courts, the Congress, the computer industry, civilian academia, and the press. This debate fully took into account the question of terrorists using strong crypto, and in fact, that was one of the core issues of the debate. Nonetheless, society's collective decision (over the FBI's objections) was that on the whole, we would be better off with strong crypto, unencumbered with government back doors. The export controls were lifted and no domestic controls were imposed. I feel this was a good decision, because we took the time and had such broad expert participation. Under the present emotional pressure, if we make a rash decision to reverse such a careful decision, it will only lead to terrible mistakes that will not only hurt our democracy, but will also increase the vulnerability of our national information infrastructure. PGP users should rest assured that I would still not acquiesce to any back doors in PGP. It is noteworthy that I had only received a single piece of hate mail on this subject. Because of all the press interviews I was dealing with, I did not have time to quietly compose a carefully worded reply to the hate mail, so I did not send a reply at all. After the article appeared, I received hundreds of supportive emails, flooding in at two or three per minute on the day of the article. I have always enjoyed good relations with the press over the past decade, especially with the Washington Post. I'm sure they will get it right next time. The article in question appears at
RE: What might have happened on Sept. 11...
Zombywuf[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Quoting Trei, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What would actually happen is that there would not be an attempt to hijack the plane. The only reason the terrorists pulled it off on the first three was that the usual protocol for hijacks involves landing, and letting most/all of the passengers off unharmed. For disarmed passengers, the best option for survival was to anticipate this protocol, and sit tight. What would actually happen is that in order to commit an act of suicidal terrorism all you'd have to do is stand up and rely on the other passengers to shoot up the plane for you. It's a great stratagy, requires almost no effort and no weapons. I everyone in the Us had that kind of attitude and a handgun how many innocents would hav been killed for looking suspicious so far? Zombywuf appears to be a Brit - one of those people who have been disarmed for so long that he/she has no real knowledge of firearms. That, or he/she does not read very well. I made specific reference to 'frangible, low velocity' ammunition. This is to prevent the very scenario he describes. (this is basicly a plastic dumdum bullet with a low charge of propellent - at short range quite lethal, but unable to penetrate objects much more solid than cloth or meat. If every adult in the US was armed, we'd be a much more polite society, and have much less crime. Peter Trei
RE: Expectation of privacy in public?
Anonymous[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] For the lawyers and lawyer larvae out there... In an article in the San Francisco Bay Guardian this week, there is an article about MUNI's policy of making audio recordings of passengers. quote Nathan Ballard of the City Attorney's Office told the Bay Guardian that they were well aware of the policy and approved it. There are no expectations of privacy in public, he said. Ballard asserted that the policy was constitutional and did not fall under any wiretapping laws. When asked if all of the vehicles that employ this surveillance policy post signs to inform passengers that their conversations are being recorded, he said, This policy does not require signs. /quote Frankly, if I'm sitting in the back of an empty bus, talking to the person next to me, it's my opinion that there certainly is a reasonable expection of privacy. Does anyone more qualified than I care to tell me why I'm right or wrong? Legal or not, I'm also curious to see what the EFF has to say about this wonderful incarnation of Big Brother. http://www.sfbg.com/SFLife/35/51/cult.html MUNI is breaking the law. http://www.rcfp.org/taping/ Peter Trei --- Cal. Penal Code ' 631, 632 (Deering 1999): It is a crime in California to intercept or eavesdrop upon any confidential communication, including a telephone call or wire communication, without the consent of all parties. It is also a crime to disclose information obtained from such an interception. A first offense is punishable by a fine of up to $2,500 and imprisonment for no more than one year. Subsequent offenses carry a maximum fine of $10,000 and jail sentence of up to one year. Eavesdropping upon or recording a conversation, whether by telephone (including cordless or cellular telephone) or in person, that a person would reasonably expect to be confined to the parties present, carries the same penalty as intercepting telephone or wire communications. Conversations occurring at any public gathering that one should expect to be overheard, including any legislative, judicial or executive proceeding open to the public, are not covered by the law. Anyone injured by a violation of the wiretapping laws can recover civil damages of $5,000 or three times actual damages, whichever is greater. Cal. Penal Code ' 637.2(a) (Deering 1999). An appellate court has ruled that using a hidden video camera violates the statute. California v. Gibbons, 215 Cal. App. 3d 1204 (1989). --
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RE: FC: Oracle's Larry Ellison urges national ID card for America ns
They can tattoo it right next to the Exit Only on my butt cheeks... -Original Message- From: Bill Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FC: Oracle's Larry Ellison urges national ID card for Americans I hate to trigger Godwin's Law so soon (though somebody else already did it), but are there any Bay Area tattoo shops that want to volunteer to help with the National ID numbers?
Re: Intercepts foretold of 'big attack' -- The Washington Times
On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 01:44 PM, Declan McCullagh wrote: You're pretty much right.But the Times has some very decent reporters, and get more national security and defense scoops than the Post. -Declan The Moonies also own my favorite handgun maker: Kahr Arms. (At least this was so about a year ago. I haven't checked to see if they are still the owners.) Better owned by the Moonies than by the Commies. --Tim May
RE: Selected quotes from Keyser-Soze
Mr. Keyser-Soze of the hushmail jacket: Although I'm not into anthropomorphics I'd guess my sign would be either mongoose (fast and perisistent and loves to kill snakes) or weasel (agile, sly, cunning and sneaky and loves to kill rats) Want to catch some REALLY big fish? Dangle your ego. :-) ~Aimee
Internment Camps for Political Dissidents
I wonder how many people on this list would qualify as sympathetic to terrorist causes, a very vague phrase which could mean almost anything. From www.newsday.com - By MARC HUMBERT Associated Press Writer September 24, 2001 ALBANY, N.Y. -- One third of New Yorkers favor establishing internment camps for individuals who authorities identify as being sympathetic to terrorist causes, according to a poll from the Siena College Research Institute. ... -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
ANWR
On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: NB : I'm not opposed to drilling Alaskan oil - after Kuwait runs dry... I am. Find another way other than killing the Polar Bears (they have to helicopter them around the N. pole each year so they don't starve), seals, whales, etc. Your right to TRY to make money doesn't over-ride my right to a reasonably maintaned planet. And as far as $25+/gallon gas...go baby go! -- Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation. Rage Against The Machine The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Internment Camps for Political Dissidents
On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 04:33 PM, Eric Cordian wrote: I wonder how many people on this list would qualify as sympathetic to terrorist causes, a very vague phrase which could mean almost anything. From www.newsday.com - By MARC HUMBERT Associated Press Writer September 24, 2001 ALBANY, N.Y. -- One third of New Yorkers favor establishing internment camps for individuals who authorities identify as being sympathetic to terrorist causes, according to a poll from the Siena College Research Institute. As predicted so many years ago, America is now racing faster than its feet can carry it toward being a high-tech police state. Polls are being taken, Congresscriminals are proposing new draconian laws, and courts have yet to be heard from (will require a few dozen court cases before they are heard from). Unencumbered by any Bill of Rights or true Constitution, the Brits are way ahead of us. Arrest on suspicion, detainment without charge, outlawing of entire classes of organizations. The U.S restrictions shutting down various alleged terrorist groups would seem to be a slam dunk First Amendment violation. Freedom of association means freedom from government shutdown. Freedom to join an anti-ZOG group, for example. Reading the Bill of Rights aloud is now a terrorist act. --Tim May
Re: Selected quotes from Keyser-Soze
At 09:10 AM 9/24/01 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although I'm not into anthropomorphics I'd guess my sign would be either mongoose (fast and perisistent and loves to kill snakes) or weasel (agile, sly, cunning and sneaky and loves to kill rats) Damnit, you should have said *dollar* sign. In the Randian sense.
Democracy is our enemy
On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 03:08 PM, Thomas Leavitt wrote: I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. We are not for democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Crypto anarchy is about undermining democracy, causing the house of cards to collapse. I refuse to give up on our way of life, my fellow citizens, or to write off my government as completely and irredemably lost. You are welcome to refuse to give up on our way of life. Many others over the centuries have similarly refused to give up on royalism...I hear there are even clubs where people pretend to be various archdukes and viscounts, and even fan clubs for the grandchildren of royals deposed 75 years ago. Maybe there will be fan clubs for democracy supporters. Maybe they will even launch little wars agains the royalists. Democracy will soon be consigned to the dustbin of history. --Tim May
Re: FC: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA
- Forwarded Message - From: Someone Working to keep our neighbors awake and informed is our best hope, in my view - that is the only way democracy will ever work. Historically this has often failed (e.g., the lack of outcry against Japanese internment camps). Neighboors are willing to sell their liberty and their neighbors at the drop of a hat if someone in government promises them greater security, even though these same liars failed them time and time again. Since the New Deal Americans and corporations have become increasingly reliant on government to provide for them, shield them from their own poor judgement and folly and transfer the responsibility to the rest of us. (Citizens of a like mind should structure upcoming tax filings to deduct Congress' largess to the airlines and others). We cannot depend on these cowards and weaklings. You'll notice that no Declaration of War was formally given. Even so Congress has moved to curtail civil liberties. From my perspective both life and liberty are equally dear. Those that attempt to take either I will treat the same. Its time to water the tree... I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. It is the cry of someone unwilling to do the hard work of actually speaking to their fellow and convincing them of the rightness of the cause being professed; the frustrated rant of someone who is convinced he or she has The Truth on their side - the same opinion shared by Timothy McVeigh, Osma Bin Ladin, and folks of a similar ilk. I wish I had a penny for every such conversation regarding this topic I've had. I won't deny that I think our government is unduly influenced by factions (from certain labor unions to untold numbers of corporations) with financial and other interests at stake, but my answer is to become a more dedicated citizen, to work harder to educate my fellow citizens and elected representatives about what I think is right and just. I wish I shared your hopeful attitude. Earlier in our country's history, when the public educational system was functioning a bit better, the average citizen had a broader perspective and a firsthand knowledge of the Constitution. Since the '60s the public system has all but failed subsequent generations leaving most ignorant and uninterested about how we got to where we are today, and easily propaganized. I've spent a considerable amount of time with those younger than 30 and its freightening how few (except for the radicals and a few lawyers) have ever read the founder's documents. Democracy only works when a citizenry is well informed. So what do you do now that you've got a generation of rubes? The political structure has almost precluded representation by those with minority views. The Republicrats are little more than two underworld gangs fighting over turf (us and our taxes) while we only get to flip a coin to determine who sticks it to us. How do you convince them that their leaders have been increasingly operating outside the intentions of the framers by ignoring and re-interpreting the Constitution to accomodate popular political sentement or accomodate powerful forces often with hidden agendas? I encourage everyone to read this book - it says more about the strengths and weaknesses of this country (and more importantly, the cowards and weaklings who make it work) than anything I've ever read. It is written by an Arab-American and a profound patriot, someone whose life represents the American dream in all it's glory and gore. America, More Than a Country by Salom Rizk Thanks, I'll look into it. I'd like to return the favor, Thomas. I suggest reading The Sovereign Individual : Mastering the Transition to the Information Age. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684832720/o/qid%3D970264502/sr%3D2-1/103-2152618-1779855 In The Sovereign Individual, Davidson and Rees-Mogg explore the greatest economic and political transition in centuries -- the shift from an industrial to an information-based society. Although somewhat repetitve, they raise some compelling arguments about what techo-geo-political factors have shaped governemnt and society and what current and anticipated factors will shape it yet again. Specifically that the economic return on violence, which is mainly tied to technology, is the most important long term influence on geopolitics. Their prediction is that nation states will be reduced significantly in global influence by the combination of the Internet (especially anonymous digital money) and the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons in the hands of
Re: Internment Camps for Political Dissidents
At 4:43 pm -0700 24/9/01, Tim May wrote: Unencumbered by any Bill of Rights or true Constitution, the Brits are way ahead of us. Arrest on suspicion, detainment without charge, outlawing of entire classes of organizations. That is the joy of being a subject rather than a Citizen. It is one of the benefits of a British Passport... f
ANWR
CDR: Re: Intercepts foretold of 'big attack' -- The Washington Times John Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : Bill Gertz has received an extraordinary number of leaked documents. Most of those occurred during the Clinton era when national security mongerers opposed to Clinton's policies leaked top secret stuff. Those kinds of leaks seemed to have diminished now that those anti-Dems are in power again. They continue to be opposed to carry overs from the Clinton team like Tenet and others. There could be more leaks or worse crimes against humanity to help get rid of those remnants. However, ex-members of Clinton's administration are now leaking natsec stuff as Bush's team increases bashing of the Dem's policies, and counterterrorism claims are sure to get leaked left and right once the pol's dipshit backslapping and airkissing vanish. Congressional hearings on who knew what and when about the 911 attacks may not be in the offing any time soon, but they are needed to determine which war mongerers were most in cahoots with their good buddy jihadists to foster mineral exploitation in the target region and as a sideline boost the need for strategic Alaskan oil. What Bush and cronies want to do in ANWR is entirely unrelated to strategy - they want the right to go make money by drilling on public lands. If it goes through in the near future watch how much the government spends on roads and other support to get the drillers in there and how much is payed in return by the oil companies. Long-term energy strategy is more important than corporate greed. The most strategic thing to do with Alaskan oil would be to leave it right where it is. Dipping in to the reserves unnecessarily is moronic. NB : I'm not opposed to drilling Alaskan oil - after Kuwait runs dry... Mike
Re: Intercepts foretold of 'big attack' -- The Washington Times
You're pretty much right.But the Times has some very decent reporters, and get more national security and defense scoops than the Post. -Declan On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 01:05:10PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: The Choate wrote: Subject:Intercepts foretold of 'big attack' -- The Washington Times http://www.washtimes.com/national/default-200192213012.htm Now, isn't the washtimes the paper which is owned by the Moonies? This doesn't neccesarily mean it can't be a good paper, but it gives me pause. Maybe my info is out of date Peter Trei
Re: [silk] Re: Avoid hard targets tomorrow (fwd)
hey tim, maybe you remember me from the early days of [EMAIL PROTECTED] just wanted to butt in here and reply to your post which i saw forwarded to some other list... it beats me why americans and the western media generally likes to get worried about the most dangerous spot in the world and next nuclear warzone that is south asia, given that everyone in india and pakistan knows neither country will use any nuclear weapons. the border population density is too great in both countries and population centres close enough that any major attack by one country on the other will have a direct fallout on both (taking delivery range into account). besides, neither govt is or has been remotely close to dreaming of nuclear attacks, though pakistan occasionally talks about them in the hope of getting america worried enough to get involved in the dispute over kashmir. indians and pakistanis don't worry about nuclear war because we know that the nuclear tests were for attention - india has had the Bomb since 1974, and pakistan has been known to have it for a decade. india carried out the tests because it felt the us was ignoring india (media coverage of asia typically limited itself to east asia) and wanted more attention. obviously pakistan had to show that it was as good as its neighbour. that's it. india's govt has been quietly (and cynically) satisfied at these events, because now, as some people have said, the US finally wants to do something about the terrorists and training camps India's been complaining about for years. india won't get involved in pakistan's troubles. rather, it hopes the US will somehow manage to shut down the training camps and networks which harbour groups that attack india... and if that puts pakistan's govt in a tight situation, well that's just a nice little bonus isn't it. -rishab From: Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Avoid hard targets tomorrow If the growing street protests/riots in Pakistan (Pesawar, Karachi, Islamabad) trend toward a new ultra-Islamic, pro-Taliban government, I expect India to strike first. India cannot allow a nuclear state on its border with Taliban leanings. India will knock out Pakistan's nuclear capabilities if it can. A nuclear war between India and Pakistan will utterly dwarf recent events, will crash the Dow to 1000, and will have other profound consequences.
US Lawmaker calls for more Internet encryption
Lawmaker calls for more Internet encryption http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/09/24/encryption.reut/index.html WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- A U.S. lawmaker well-versed in technology issues said Friday that government bodies and citizens should use more encryption, not less, to increase security on the Internet...Goodlatte said more U.S. businesses and government agencies should use encryption to guard against future computer-based attacks that could disable power plants, banking systems, and other critical infrastructures. ...
Re: ANWR
Steve, I read it a few days ago. I think that it will take a decade or two to be widely accepted. I'm betting that the standard method of management by crisis will be how our country deals with the end of oil whether the writer is corrrect or not about the date. Mike Steve Schear wrote: At 02:43 PM 9/24/2001 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What Bush and cronies want to do in ANWR is entirely unrelated to strategy - they want the right to go make money by drilling on public lands. If it goes through in the near future watch how much the government spends on roads and other support to get the drillers in there and how much is payed in return by the oil companies. Long-term energy strategy is more important than corporate greed. The most strategic thing to do with Alaskan oil would be to leave it right where it is. Dipping in to the reserves unnecessarily is moronic. NB : I'm not opposed to drilling Alaskan oil - after Kuwait runs dry... The End of Oil http://www.sciam.com/2001/1001issue/1001reviews1.html
Re: RE: Expectation of privacy in public?
On 24 Sep 2001, at 17:49, Robert wrote: Cal. Penal Code ' 631, 632 (Deering 1999): It is a crime in California to intercept or eavesdrop upon any confidential communication, including a telephone call or wire communication, without the consent of all parties. It is not a crime for an agency of another country to eavesdrop on you as long as they are physically located outside the U.S. Similarly, it is not illegal for a US agency to intercept messages in another country, as long as they do it from outside the that country. You're on crack. The anti-eavsdropping laws don't have exemptions for agents of foreign governments, the suggestion is absurd. This is how (if it really does exist) the Echelon network works. Agencies in Canada, England, Australia etc. intercept messages in the U.S. and then pass on the intelligence to their U.S. counterparts. This information sharing by-passes legal jurisdictional limits. Except that it doesn't. It's not a violation of US law for US agents to spy on people in Australia, but it's almost certainly a violation of Australian law. Similarly, it's probably not a violation of Australian law for Australian agents to eavsdrop on people in California, but it's clearly a violation of California law. George Robert Andrews Is your personal data exposed? http://www.PrivacyExposed.com
Re: ANWR
At 02:43 PM 9/24/2001 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What Bush and cronies want to do in ANWR is entirely unrelated to strategy - they want the right to go make money by drilling on public lands. If it goes through in the near future watch how much the government spends on roads and other support to get the drillers in there and how much is payed in return by the oil companies. Long-term energy strategy is more important than corporate greed. The most strategic thing to do with Alaskan oil would be to leave it right where it is. Dipping in to the reserves unnecessarily is moronic. NB : I'm not opposed to drilling Alaskan oil - after Kuwait runs dry... The End of Oil http://www.sciam.com/2001/1001issue/1001reviews1.html
RE: Expectation of privacy in public?
Under the California statute, a conversation in which the parties have no expectation that the discussion would not be disclosed to others is not confidential. Cal. Penal Code. Sect.632(a). Confidentiality has been construed in California to mean a reasonable expectation that the content of the communication has been entrusted privately to the listener. Deteresa v. American Braodcasting Co. 121 F.3d 460, 464 (9th Cir. 1997, cert. denied, 118 S. Ct. 1840 (1998). Oral Communication under Title I (of Title III or the ECPA) incorporates the Katz test. The Katz test is two-pronged: (1) the person challenging must exhibit an expectation of privacy [subjective] and (2) that person must also be justified in that expectation [objective]. If both prongs are not met, the conversation is not protected under the constitution against warrantless surveillance. Senate Report 1097: neither the speakers intention to talk in confidence nor the location of where the conversation happened controls the determination of whether or not he reasonably expected he could not or would not be overheard. The factors that might be considered in regard to the first prong are: precautions taken, content, purpose, etc. Therefore, words a person knowingly puts to the public, possibly even in your home, can be outside of the Fourth Amendment and Title III. However, it's a very contextual determination. Often, the courts use the rationale that because you have no reason to believe your conversation is not being overheard, you have no reason to believe you are not being recorded. See In re Johen Doe Trader No. One, 894 F.2d 240, 243 (7th Cir. 1990)(recording on floor of commodities exchange). They could also make the analogy to a visitor of a bugged house, such as United States v. Flemmi, 225 F.3d 78 (1st Cir. 2000). However, the mere fact that the conversation is on government premises does not affect an expectation of privacy. United States v. Jackson, 588 F.2d 1046, 1052 (5th Cir. 1979)and a bunch more after that. Blah, blah, more than you wanted to know. ~Aimee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Trei, Peter Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 12:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Expectation of privacy in public? Anonymous[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] For the lawyers and lawyer larvae out there... In an article in the San Francisco Bay Guardian this week, there is an article about MUNI's policy of making audio recordings of passengers. quote Nathan Ballard of the City Attorney's Office told the Bay Guardian that they were well aware of the policy and approved it. There are no expectations of privacy in public, he said. Ballard asserted that the policy was constitutional and did not fall under any wiretapping laws. When asked if all of the vehicles that employ this surveillance policy post signs to inform passengers that their conversations are being recorded, he said, This policy does not require signs. /quote Frankly, if I'm sitting in the back of an empty bus, talking to the person next to me, it's my opinion that there certainly is a reasonable expection of privacy. Does anyone more qualified than I care to tell me why I'm right or wrong? Legal or not, I'm also curious to see what the EFF has to say about this wonderful incarnation of Big Brother. http://www.sfbg.com/SFLife/35/51/cult.html MUNI is breaking the law. http://www.rcfp.org/taping/ Peter Trei ---
Re: CDR: ANWR
Jim Choate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: NB : I'm not opposed to drilling Alaskan oil - after Kuwait runs dry... I am. Find another way other than killing the Polar Bears (they have to helicopter them around the N. pole each year so they don't starve), seals, whales, etc. Your right to TRY to make money doesn't over-ride my right to a reasonably maintaned planet. As usual you misunderstand me - I only approve of going into ANWR in a case of dire need. Our society depends so heavily on fossil fuels that a sudden removal would cause panic and starvation. And as far as $25+/gallon gas...go baby go! $25 is a bit extreme - lets move it up to ~$3 1 year from now to start. Change it too quickly and you cause too much trouble for the economy. I also think we should learn a lesson from NY - annual vehicle registration costs are based on vehicle weight. Mike
Re: Fwd: Re: FC: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: Re: FC: Sen. Hollings plans to introduce DMCA sequel: The SSSCA Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:06:53 -0700 - Forwarded Message - From: Someone Working to keep our neighbors awake and informed is our best hope, in my view - that is the only way democracy will ever work. Historically this has often failed (e.g., the lack of outcry against Japanese internment camps). Neighboors are willing to sell their liberty and their neighbors at the drop of a hat if someone in government promises them greater security, even though these same liars failed them time and time again. Since the New Deal Americans and corporations have become increasingly reliant on government to provide for them, shield them from their own poor judgement and folly and transfer the responsibility to the rest of us. (Citizens of a like mind should structure upcoming tax filings to deduct Congress' largess to the airlines and others). We cannot depend on these cowards and weaklings. You'll notice that no Declaration of War was formally given. Even so Congress has moved to curtail civil liberties. From my perspective both life and liberty are equally dear. Those that attempt to take either I will treat the same. Its time to water the tree... I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. It is the cry of someone unwilling to do the hard work of actually speaking to their fellow and convincing them of the rightness of the cause being professed; the frustrated rant of someone who is convinced he or she has The Truth on their side - the same opinion shared by Timothy McVeigh, Osma Bin Ladin, and folks of a similar ilk. I won't deny that I think our government is unduly influenced by factions (from certain labor unions to untold numbers of corporations) with financial and other interests at stake, but my answer is to become a more dedicated citizen, to work harder to educate my fellow citizens and elected representatives about what I think is right and just. I refuse to give up on our way of life, my fellow citizens, or to write off my government as completely and irredemably lost. To do so is criminally irresponsible, in my view. *** I encourage everyone to read this book - it says more about the strengths and weaknesses of this country (and more importantly, the cowards and weaklings who make it work) than anything I've ever read. It is written by an Arab-American and a profound patriot, someone whose life represents the American dream in all it's glory and gore. America, More Than a Country by Salom Rizk Book Description Salom Rizk, author of this autobiography, was born in 1909 in a tiny poverty-stricken town in Syria. Two brothers and an uncle in Iowa paid his passage to the United States, but he arrived penniless, homeless and with no knowledge of the language. The story of his incredible experience in self-education and his rise to one of the most sought-after and inspirational speakers on American lecture platforms is contained in America, more than a Country. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564922979/qid=999899722/002-6041749-5005636 The Chicago Tribune This is the kind of book you pick up to skim through and find yourself reading every word avidly...It's excellent to read aloud to the family -much more effective than pompous essays of freedom. Regards, Thomas Leavitt -- Thomas Leavitt -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ICQ #16455919 http://www.internetmanifesto.org/ http://www.sczenkarate.org/ http://www.space.org/ http://www.gnosis.org/ Wired since 1981. Internet enabled since 1990. Web enabled since 1993. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: ID cards+law history;
I've written a bit about national ID card proposals. This link may eventually work: http://search.hotwired.com/search97/s97.vts?Action=FilterSearchFilter=docs_filter.htsResultTemplate=news.htsCollection=newsQueryMode=InternetQuery=%22national%20id%22%20mccullagh -Declan On Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:08:24PM -0700, Xeni Jardin wrote: I fear it is naive to imagine that case law and legal precedent can combat the legislative onslaught to come. All bets are definitely off. IANAL, but what seems most relevant to the discussion of national ID cards from the earlier 1983 decision was the court's affirmation that citizens shouldn't be subject to arrest for not displaying ID to law enforcement on demand. As far as I can see, the judgement doesn't restrict whether or not a law enforcement officer can *ask* for ID, just says that a citizen shouldn't be presumed guilty of some crime for not displaying it. During los anos Clinton, there was some talk of implementing a national ID card system as part of his healthcare proposal, if memory serves -- and that idea tanked. Offhand, I'm not aware of other instances in US history when a national ID card system has been proposed + debated in the name of national security... surely this must have come up before at some point... XJ
Re: Intercepts foretold of 'big attack' -- The Washington Times
Bill Gertz has received an extraordinary number of leaked documents. Most of those occurred during the Clinton era when national security mongerers opposed to Clinton's policies leaked top secret stuff. Those kinds of leaks seemed to have diminished now that those anti-Dems are in power again. They continue to be opposed to carry overs from the Clinton team like Tenet and others. There could be more leaks or worse crimes against humanity to help get rid of those remnants. However, ex-members of Clinton's administration are now leaking natsec stuff as Bush's team increases bashing of the Dem's policies, and counterterrorism claims are sure to get leaked left and right once the pol's dipshit backslapping and airkissing vanish. Congressional hearings on who knew what and when about the 911 attacks may not be in the offing any time soon, but they are needed to determine which war mongerers were most in cahoots with their good buddy jihadists to foster mineral exploitation in the target region and as a sideline boost the need for strategic Alaskan oil.
500 lb laser guided respect for your culture
At 09:46 PM 9/22/01 -0700, pseudolicious wrote: GOVERNMENT TRIPPING OVER RELIGIOUS RHETORIC=BY SARAH LUBMAN SJMercury News For the second time in less than a week, the U.S. government had damage control to do because of its religion-infused rhetoric. The Pentagon on Thursday backed away from the code name for its anti-terrorist offensive, ``Operation Infinite Justice,'' for fear of offending Muslims. Heh, right now you could sell a lot of those (since withdrawn) Nikes with Allah's name accidentally in the tread. At least in the Homeland (tm) they'd sell. There's hardly enough lube-groove on a .223 round to hold enough pig-grease to make a difference... Maybe SpecOps gets hollowpoints...
Re: Democracy is our enemy
At 04:58 PM 9/24/2001 -0700, Tim May wrote: On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 03:08 PM, Thomas Leavitt wrote: I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. We are not for democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. We are not a democracy, but a repubic (pun intended). The primary responsibility of our elected officials is to protect the minorities from the majority and to preserve protect and defend the constitution. Many representatives clearly show they have at best a poor understanding of the Constitution, the words and intentions of the framers. Some even show disdain for it. How many Congressmen do you think ever read Thomas Paine's works? Crypto anarchy is about undermining democracy, causing the house of cards to collapse. I refuse to give up on our way of life, my fellow citizens, or to write off my government as completely and irredemably lost. You are welcome to refuse to give up on our way of life. Many others over the centuries have similarly refused to give up on royalism...I hear there are even clubs where people pretend to be various archdukes and viscounts, and even fan clubs for the grandchildren of royals deposed 75 years ago. Maybe there will be fan clubs for democracy supporters. Maybe they will even launch little wars agains the royalists. Democracy will soon be consigned to the dustbin of history. I hope representative government is not.
Democracy is our enemy
On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, Tim May wrote: We are not for democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Speak for yourself butthead. Crypto anarchy is about undermining democracy, causing the house of cards to collapse. Anarcho anything is a sham. -- Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation. Rage Against The Machine The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Meet Hardcore and Teen girls!
Title: Untitled Document CLICK HERE FOR THE MOST TEEN HARDCORE ACTION PHOTO GALLERIES - XXX VIDEO FEEDS - INTERACTIVE CHAT - CYBERFOLDS AND STORIES - SEX CAMS - TEEN SEX ACTION CLICK HERE FOR PURE HARDCORE SEX 171,000 XXX VIDEO FEEDS - THOUSANDS OF PICTURES - 24/7 LIVE SEX CAMS EROTIC STORIES - HIDDEN CAMS - FULL-LENGHT MOVIES - LIVE CHAT This email has been requested by a user on your network and has not been sent unsolicited. If the user does not recall requesting this email, then another user has maliciously requested it for them. If this is the case, please accept our apologies and CLICK HERE TO REMOVE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS or send a email with the subject remove to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Untitled Document
CIA/DoD NBC biowarfare handbooks and resources
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Master Site: http://www.nbc-med.org/ Medical Online NBC Information Server Don't miss their online video tutorials and training courses! Fascinating stuff. Good reading... Medical Management Of Biological Casualties Handbook Fourth Edition, February 2001 U.S. Army Medical Reseach Institute of Infectious Diseases http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/HomePage/WhatsNew/MedManual/Feb01/handbook.htm The Blue Book Appx A: Glossary of Medical Terms Appx B: Patient Isolation Precautions Appx C: BW Agent Characteristics Appx D: BW Agent Vaccines, Therapeutics and Prophylactics Appx E: Medical Sample Collection for BW Agents Appx F: Specimens for Laboratory Diagnosis Appx G: BW Agent Laboratory Identification Appx H: Differential Diagnosis - Toxins vs. Nerve Agents Appx I: Comparative Lethality - Toxins vs. Chemical Agents Appx J: Aerosol Toxicity Appx K: References and Emergency Response Contacts Medical Management of Radiological Casualties Handbook http://www.afrri.usuhs.mil/www/outreach/pdf/radiologicalhandbooksp99-2.pdf Information Paper: DoD Biological Warfare Threat Analysis http://www.defenselink.mil/other_info/threat.html Unclassified Report to Congress on the Acquisition of Technology Relating to Weapons of Mass Destruction and Advanced Conventional Munitions 1 July Through 31 December 1999 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/bian/bian_aug2000.htm Medical NBC Briefing Series: Medical NBC Aspects of Influenza http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/MedRef/Briefings/7influenza/sld001.htm -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: Hush 2.0 wl8EARECAB8FAjuv4okYHGF1dG8zMDEwOTRAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEKadvsVlUK4P yJsAoJCNsY6s4XTt99Fp7kO6m2zmeDAdAJ97JG6Mx3baIQGCSPlxcKEKIzsSSw== =ZUBj -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [silk] Re: Avoid hard targets tomorrow (fwd)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote: indians and pakistanis don't worry about nuclear war because we know that the nuclear tests were for attention - india has had the Bomb since 1974, and pakistan has been known to have it for a decade. india carried out the tests because it felt the us was ignoring india (media coverage of asia typically limited itself to east asia) and wanted more attention. obviously pakistan had to show that it was as good as its neighbour. that's it. Interesting, but where are you getting this? It's not my area, but I think you're a being little optimistic--the only nuclear scientist I ever met who was involved with the Indian tests struck me as being a real honest-to- god pakistan-bashing hawk. Oh well, there's science and then there's strategy... Here's a great pdf on the latter if anyone is interested: India's Emerging Nuclear Posture: Between Recessed Deterrent and Ready Arsenal Ashley J. Tellis http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1127/ And a quick summary: On May 11, 1998, after a hiatus of more than two decades, India conducted a series of nuclear tests that signaled a critical shift in its strategic thinking. Once content to embrace a nuclear posture consisting largely of maintaining the option--i.e., neither creating a nuclear arsenal nor renouncing its right to do so--India is now on the threshold of adopting a posture that, while stopping short of creating a ready arsenal, will take as its goal the establishment of a minimum but credible deterrent, known as a force-in-being. This book examines the forces--political, strategic, technological, and ideational--that led to this dramatic policy shift and describes how New Delhi's force-in-being will be fashioned, particularly in light of the threat India faces from its two most salient adversaries, China and Pakistan. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: Hush 2.0 wl8EARECAB8FAjuv6z0YHGF1dG8zMDEwOTRAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEKadvsVlUK4P 82UAniQkaFMJFbGsvqbJOtOCOy3YLQVvAKCgI0Nztd9mSUJM5iMA1YWC626rrg== =yEKq -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: ANWR
At 04:23 PM 9/24/01 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also think we should learn a lesson from NY - annual vehicle registration costs are based on vehicle weight. Mike That's not fair. It penalizes safer (more massive) cars without regard to their actual petrol consumption. If you only tax cars you ignore driving habits --you subsidize 'wasteful' (but fun) driving, e.g., accelerating faster than fuel-optimal. The market is fair: just let the price of gas be established by a free market. Then everyone can decide whether they want a 1000 lb, 300 hp car or a 3000 lb, 100 hp car, or something in between.
[texas-hpr] ATF letter (fwd)
-- Forwarded message -- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:20:32 - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [texas-hpr] ATF letter May be worth checking this outnot that anyone hasen't already.. http://www.atf.treas.gov/press/fy01press/09190/notice.htm Chuck Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/PMYolB/TM -~- Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Democracy is our enemy
Thomas Leavitt writes: I'm tired of hearing my fellow Americans referred to as cowards, weaklings, sheep, ignorant, easily mislead - this is a profoundly undemocratic sentiment, the same kind of crap spewed by totalitarian and authoritarian types from the far left and the far right as justification for abandonment of the democratic process and the use of force to impose their ideology on the rest of us. Well said. There was an article the other day about the terrorists, which made the point that capitalism and fundamentalism were much alike, in that both share a distrust of democracy. The same can be said for the cypherpunks. No wonder that so many here have expressed vitriolic criticism of the U.S. government response (which has been almost zero), while there has been little mention of the horrific evil of the terrorist acts themselves. Putting it starkly, who is more evil: John Ashcroft or Mohammed Atta? Is it possible that certain cypherpunks find themselves on the same side as bin Laden and his fundamentalist killers? Do they secretly support this murderous attacks on innocent civilians? We now face biological and chemical attacks, which are supposed to be even more cruel and shocking than the WTC attacks. Are these cypherpunks in favor of seeing more Americans killed by terrorist actions? The philosophical connection becomes even clearer with the frequent statements by cypherpunks that those who disagree need killing, that blood must be shed by those of different political views. In effect this is a call for a Cypherpunk Jihad (the word is often translated as holy war, but justified struggle is as valid a translation). It is no different for Tim May to call for the extinction of his enemies than for Usama bin Laden to do so. Cypherpunks need to take a hard look at themselves. Anyone who feels horror and disgust at the terrorist acts should recognize that the same sentiments are found here, just below the surface. The thinly veiled threats of bloodshed are based on the same philosophy of violent hatred and contempt for others which motivates the terrorists. Tim May and Usama bin Laden are now revealed as philosophical cousins. It is becoming harder and harder to tell them apart.
Re: CDR: ANWR
On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As usual you misunderstand me - I only approve of going into ANWR in a case of dire need. Our society depends so heavily on fossil fuels that a sudden removal would cause panic and starvation. I don't misunderstand at all. Better we learn to live without it now then ruin the planet and still have the problem. At least my way we'll have some nice green valley's to sit around in while we pine about the glory days of yor... $25 is a bit extreme - lets move it up to ~$3 1 year from now to start. Change it too quickly and you cause too much trouble for the economy. I would hope it would raise holy hell with the economy. I also think we should learn a lesson from NY - annual vehicle registration costs are based on vehicle weight. You mean they don't? (Tx. has always been as long as I've owned a car) -- Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation. Rage Against The Machine The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
... and the survival of the Western world (fwd)
-- Forwarded message -- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:49:41 -0300 From: The terror test... [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ... and the survival of the Western world From: Los Angeles Times.com Forums, Politics, CubDest Editorial, Sept. 24, 2001 THE TERROR TEST AND THE SURVIVAL OF THE WESTERN WORLD --- We are facing an alliance of leftist forces remnants of Communism and radical Moslem movements, in which the dictator Fidel Castro places his expectations. --- The bloody episodes of terror of September 11th, which occurred simultaneously in New York and Washington, could in some ways be interpreted as a huge testing of the North American and world public opinion, at the hands of anti-Christian forces bent on the destruction of the Western World. As pointed out by the German strategist Karl von Clausewitz, the main objective in a war is to eliminate the adversary's will to resist. Following that line of thought, the attack on September 11th proved, in the midst of tragedy, in an uplifting reality for the Western world and undoubtedly uncomfortable for its adversaries: rising above the pain, uncertainty and the irreversible changes in every day life, the majority of the people of North American reacted in the spirit of patriotism and with a determination to resist the enemy, with an intensity difficult to predict after the nature of such attacks. Meanwhile, in Latin America a phenomenon is taking place which causes great apprehension: after the initial horror and consequent solidarity with the victims, the public opinion has suffered a subtle but effective pressure from leftist forces, through the media, to try to blame what happened on the United States, presenting the victims as those which launched the attacks. In an attempt to obtain this unacceptable roll reversal, the same mechanism that has been used so many times to absolve the Communist regime of Cuba by making the exiled Cubans and the United States the aggressors. This the same type of play with words by the left that were used during the 1960's and the 1980's to justify the aggressions in the continent of pro-Castro guerilla forces. Regrettably, there are ecclesiastical voices, independent from their in tentions, that are allowing themselves to be used in that dangerous game. For example, the influential Brazilian Archbishop Mons. Luciano Mendes de Almeida, who served in a prominent position in the Catholic Conference of Brazil and in CELAM, said referring to the attacks of September 11th: It is because of the extreme amount of poverty and the domination of some countries over others, that things of this nature occur. This type of talk is occurring mainly in Latin America put it can also be heard in Europe and even in the United States, with the collaboration of those mechanisms that protect the so called anti-globalization movements. In the concrete order of the acts which occurred we are in the presence of an alliance between leftist forces remnants of Communism and radical Moslem movements, in which the dictator Fidel Castro places his expectations of survival. All of this brings us to a fundamental theme, in which we have insisted upon an uncountable amount of times, when it comes to the defense of the Western world and the cause of freedom of Cuba: the importance of publicity. In effect, it seems exaggerated to say after having witnessed the destructive capacity of terrorism, but in reality the decisive battle continues to be in the psychological and ideological fields. A type of battle which is capable of destroying man spiritually, all the while maintaining his physical health intact. We decidedly enter into a world where chaos is multiplied by chaos. To learn to survive in that atmosphere means not accepting it as something natural but instead each time we need to prepare ourselves to have more will to resist and more of a vigilant spirit. Without a doubt, the results of the test of terror where not totally favorable for the anti-Christian forces. But it is also true that we have before us an arduous path, full of traps and things that are unforeseen. Let us learn necessary lessons for the cause of freedom. Far from the vicissitude of the present time and future circumstances, the promise of the Most Holly Virgin in Fatima, Portugal, in 1917, which is undoubtedly a motive for bright hope: At last, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. IMPORTANT: To ask for more info, please, click in mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=MoreInfo To send your valuable opinion, click in mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=MyOpinion To unsubscribe, click in mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=Unsubscribe To add friends to our Address Book, with their previous consent, please click in mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=Subscribe and add their e-mails in the body of the message. Thanks in advance!
The Guillotine Is Not Obsolete
At 04:33 PM 9/24/01 -0700, Eric Cordian wrote: I wonder how many people on this list would qualify as sympathetic to terrorist causes, a very vague phrase which could mean almost anything. By MARC HUMBERT Associated Press Writer ALBANY, N.Y. -- One third of New Yorkers favor establishing internment camps for individuals who authorities identify as being sympathetic to terrorist causes, according to a poll from the Siena College Research Institute. So if we propose that maybe, after doing the requisite cratering, we *do* leave the arabs and the rest of them to their own family feuds, we're sympathizers? How about if we propose executing the Saudi kings and making the fucking place a protectorate (letting their women drive cars for a change)? Where does that put us? Can we get the Budweiser concession at Mecca, or do the Czechs get that? CivilEPunks: How many megatons would it take to extend the Mediterranean to the Gulf?
