date:20011026

On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> [You can see James Glassman's bio here:
> http://www.techcentralstation.com/Bios.asp?FormMode=Bio&ID=6 His column is
> not merely poorly-reasoned, but poorly researched as well: He makes some
> factual errors, such as saying the lack of a national ID card makes the
> U.S. "almost unique."  Try Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, the
> Nordic countries, Sweden, Mexico, and so on. --Declan]

And most significantly - the UK.  In spite of recent rumors

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1572000/1572026.stm

DCF

"Afridis have curious ideas as to the laws of hospitality; it is no
uncommon thing for them to murder their guests in cold blood, but it is
contrary to their code of honor to surrender a fugitive who has claimed
asylum with them." -- .ROBERTS, (Field-Marshal, Lord, of Kandahar).
FORTY-ONE YEARS IN INDIA from Subaltern to Commander-in-Chief... London:
Bentley, 1897.  Vol I Pg 32.  [The author was the last foreign general to
defeat the Afghanis.]

Al-Jazeera Guide in English

2001-10-26 Thread Khoder bin Hakkin


This link http://www.cursor.org/aljazeera.htm
has stories about censorship & satellites and a link to
a site that translates Al-Jazeera's site.

(That link seems slow but the site is up.)

Re: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias

2001-10-26 Thread j eric townsend


At 09:01 -0700 2001/10/26, Tim May wrote:
>(For those outside the U.S., a word of explanation. For some reason, 
>political mappers showed
>votes for Al Gore in _blue_ and votes for Bush in _red_. I have no 
>idea how this came to be.

It's been done that way for years on television vote tallies.  They 
never use, say, purple and orange, almost always red and blue (and 
green, I think for independents).  I'm not sure, but I think GOP has 
always been red and Dems have always been blue.
-- 
J. Eric Townsend -- http://www.spies.com/jet

Were you in USASSG/ACSI/MACV in Vietnam, 1967-1970?  Drop me a line if so...

Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...

2001-10-26 Thread Tim May

On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 10:36 AM, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:
>
>> That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should 
>> all be
>> understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which 
>> occasionaly lead
>> to minor inconveniences.
>
>
> Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
>

I've seen you quote this several times.

Since it's a generality ("the literate") and not just a statement about 
your own personal view of prison, I dispute it. I'm literate, but prison 
would indeed be punishment for me. For all of the usual reasons.

Being thrown in a jail cell and having reading material is no substitute 
for liberty.

"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago

Re: The end of the Fourth Amendment

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 05:38 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> Too many totalitarian surveillance state measures to comment on, but the
> "sneak and peek" provision is such a slam dunk violation of the Fourth
> Amendment that it bears special comment.
>

Unfortunately, the Fourth doesn't ban secret searches it just bans
warrantless ones.  And that ban was destroyed years ago:

UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 425 U.S. 435 (1976)

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/425/435.html

Held: Respondent possessed no Fourth Amendment interest in the bank
records that could be vindicated by a challenge to the subpoenas, and the
District Court therefore did not err in denying the motion to suppress.
Pp. 440-446.

Since then most of our "papers and effects" have been open to warrantless
searches.

Any good computer mechanics out there who can rig an electro-mechanical
interface for a computer-actuated spring gun.  Double-barreled shotgun
pointed at the keyboard.  Enter the right passphrase within 30 seconds of
starting your session or be splattered across the monitor.

DCF

"If you want to accurately foretell the future, predict war.  You'll
always be right." -- Robert Heinlein Worldcon 1976.

obit

2001-10-26 Thread mmotyka


Tim,

Re: the death of the fourth.

Yer list is too short.

R.I.P. : I, IV, V, VI, VIII

The obit may be premature but they're certainly on their respective
deathbeds. Don't expect the docs from the Judicial branch to effect a
cure - they've administered some pretty nearly lethal doses in the past.

II? Well, it's an obvious target, to keep weapons out of the hands of
terrorists don't you know. Never mind the fact that only about 2-3% of
incoming containers are inspected at ports of entry...

Instead of fixing cabin partitions, updating training scenarios, adding
cctv and a sky marshall we get Big Brother and his database ranger
proctologist squad.

Instead of improved customs and immigration inspections we get Heinrich
Himmler and his boys in black inspecting the motherland.

Now that the formalities are out of the way I want to see what Himmler
actually does in his new found meat suit.

As far as colors on maps, any distinction between red and blue is
imaginary, the recent voting rolls show the true colors - mostly yellow,
with some red, white and black arm bands.

ITBAWC
OCDLRO
WU LEG
 F  CN
KI
ET
DI
 O
 N

Having trouble keeping my breakfast down, 
Mike

Re: CDR: Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...

2001-10-26 Thread measl



On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

Please tell me this is not meant as it reads.  I keep trying, but seem
unable to find anything but a straight reading..

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...

At 01:11 PM 10/26/01 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
> > Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
>
>Please tell me this is not meant as it reads.  I keep trying, but seem
>unable to find anything but a straight reading..

"Otium sine litteris mors est. -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

But *with* literature, it's great.

Unfortunately, some prisons deny a wide choice of reading matter to their 
inmates but as long as you declare yourself a Baha'i upon entry, you get to 
read all the world's scriptures (including the complete works of L. Ron 
Hubbard).

DCF

[1] And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
[3} ... but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why 
then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to 
Israel?
[7] And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. 1 
Chronicles 21.

Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...

2001-10-26 Thread measl

This "worldview" of your makes a point of deying the reality of the
situation under disussion.  It's difficult to enjoy reading "all the
worlds scriptures" when you need to spend most of your time insuring your
pyhsical *survival*.  You have absolutely no concept of our prisons, do
you?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:14:03 -0400
> From: Duncan Frissell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...
> 
> At 01:11 PM 10/26/01 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> >
> > > Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
> >
> >Please tell me this is not meant as it reads.  I keep trying, but seem
> >unable to find anything but a straight reading..
> 
> "Otium sine litteris mors est. -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca
> 
> But *with* literature, it's great.
> 
> Unfortunately, some prisons deny a wide choice of reading matter to their 
> inmates but as long as you declare yourself a Baha'i upon entry, you get to 
> read all the world's scriptures (including the complete works of L. Ron 
> Hubbard).
> 
> DCF
> 
> 
> [1] And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
> [3} ... but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why 
> then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to 
> Israel?
> [7] And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. 1 
> Chronicles 21.
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias

At 10:51 AM 10/26/01 -0700, j eric townsend wrote:
>AIt's been done that way for years on television vote tallies.  They never 
>use, say, purple and orange, almost always red and blue (and green, I 
>think for independents).  I'm not sure, but I think GOP has always been 
>red and Dems have always been blue.
>--

But the colors are backwards.  As in the UK, the party of the Left should 
be Red and the party of the Right blue.

Color of communism v the color of patriotism.

DCF

"In 1776, fewer than 10% of Americans owned firearms.  This proves that the 
American gun culture of today is an evil creation of gun manufacturers and 
the NRA."
"In 1776 fewer than 10% of Americans owned a coach and four.  This proves 
that the American car culture of today is an evil creation of General 
Motors and the AAA."

Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...

2001-10-26 Thread Matthew Gaylor

At 1:36 PM -0400 10/26/01, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."
>
>DCF
>

Of course you may have to read standing up until you get used to it.

Regards,  Matt-

Rape used as control in U.S. prisons

<

By NEVE GORDON
National Catholic Reporter, September 14, 2001

Many prisoners are targeted for sexual exploitation the minute they enter a
penal facility; their age, looks, sexual preference and other
characteristics mark them as candidates for maltreatment. In a new
groundbreaking report, Human Rights Watch documents the widespread
prisoner-on-prisoner rape in U.S. men's prisons. The rights group accuses
state authorities of not taking measures to prevent and punish rape and, in
many cases, for allowing this cruel form of abuse to persist.

One reads that in extreme incidents prisoners find themselves the "slaves"
of their rapists. Forced to satisfy another man's sexual appetites upon
demand, they may also be responsible for washing his clothes, massaging his
back, cooking his food and cleaning his cell. They are frequently "rented
out" for sex services, sold or even auctioned off to other inmates.

One prisoner from Arkansas wrote to Human Rights Watch: "I had no choice
but to submit to being Inmate B's prison wife. Out of fear for my life, I
submitted to [him]. In all reality, I was his slave, as the Officials of
the Arkansas Department of Corrections  did absolutely nothing."

"Rapes are unimaginably vicious and brutal," writes Joanne Mariner, deputy
director of the Americas division of Human Rights Watch, and author of "No
Escape: Male Rape in U.S. Prisons." Gang assaults are not uncommon, and
victims may be left beaten, bloody and even dead; they almost always suffer
from extreme psychological stress, including nightmares, deep depression,
shame and self-hatred, which may lead to suicide. There are also known
cases whereby the victim has contracted HIV.

No conclusive national data exists regarding the prevalence of this
phenomenon, but the most recent statistical survey, published in the Prison
Journal, revealed that 21 percent of inmates in seven Midwestern prisons
had experienced at least one episode of pressured or forced sex since being
incarcerated, and at least 7 percent had been raped in their facility.

Correctional authorities generally deny that rape is a serious problem. In
Human Rights Watch's survey of all 50 states, not one correctional
authority reported abuse rates even approaching those found by the rights
group. The authorities' reluctance to acknowledge the scale of the
violation is reflected not only in misleading official statistics, but also
in a glaringly inadequate response to incidents of rape.

When an inmate informs an officer he has been threatened with rape or,
worse, actually assaulted, his complaint is seldom investigated, and only
in rare instances is an inmate protected from further abuse. "U.S. state
prisons have failed to take even obvious, basic steps necessary to tackle
prison rape," Mariner writes. "This deliberate indifference has had tragic
consequences."

In the report, one reads of M.R., a Texas inmate who was violently raped
and beaten several times over a period of several months by the same
prisoner. Fearful for his life, he reported the abuse to the prison
authorities, but received no protection. In fact one investigator dismissed
the complaint as a "lovers' quarrel." Finally one day the rapist showed up
in M.R.'s cell and attacked him. M.R. suffered a broken jaw, left
collarbone and finger, a dislocated left shoulder, lacerations to his scalp
and two major concussions that caused internal bleeding. The rapist was
never criminally prosecuted.

Why, one might ask, do prison authorities turn a blind eye to this horrific
phenomenon?  While Human Rights Watch does not directly deal with this
issue, it appears that the authorities' lack of response is premeditated.
Rape is an effective, albeit ruthless, mechanism of inmate control.

By allowing rape to go on, the "correctional" authorities ensure that
prisoner violence is contained within the cells. Frustrated prisoners are
permitted to release aggression on condition that they direct it against
other inmates, not the authorities. That the victims, who comprise as much
as 20 percent of 2 million inmates held in U.S. prisons and jail, live in
perpetual fear is also conducive to control. Divide and conquer is the name
of the game; the fact that it amounts to horrendous violations of human
rights does not really interest the prison authorities.
--
Neve Gordon teaches in the department of politics and government at Ben
Gurion University, Israel.

**
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderate

RE: Where The Torture Never Stops...

2001-10-26 Thread Faustine

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Sandy wrote:

> Also, jail/prison libraries are
>woefully lacking in the sort of books you REALLY need.

Yep. So why not do a little something about it? I've been donating books
to a local women's prison for awhile: Ayn Rand, history books, old textbooks,
etc. can go a long, long way. Go to the local library sale and load up on the
fifty cent hardbacks, ten cent classic paperbacks--such a small investment
when you think of the good that might come of it. Magazine subscriptions are
probably worth looking into, too. I was meaning to do that myself, thanks
for the reminder. 

Of course "what you REALLY need" is in the eye of the beholder, but 
if more literate, concerned people at least made an effort to get what
THEY would want to read into the prisons,it could only be a good thing.

I'll never know if I made a difference, but it's the idea that counts.

~Faustine.

***

All the resources of a superpower cannot isolate a man who hears the
voice of freedom, a voice I heard from the very chamber of my soul.

- --Anatoly B Shcharansky 

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its 
affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)

iQA/AwUBO9m+r/g5Tuca7bfvEQIHdgCfa7ne28nKgzEMPY/RBJZxOwXN7lwAoOtC
Bk/masgLZJWSben7iIoJLQMx
=iee8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...



Quoting Duncan Frissell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:
> 
> > That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be
> > understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead
> > to minor inconveniences.
> 
> Besides, "Prison is not punishment to the literate."

What could be more obvious?


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.

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A Terrorist's Nursery (fwd)



No, I didn't. Please pay better attention to your attribution.


On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> 
> 
> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> 
> > But Nato's escape clause won't work this time round. For as the Afghan
> > refugees turn up in their thousands at the border, it is palpably evident
> > that they are fleeing not the Taliban but our bombs and missiles. The
> > Taliban is not ethnically cleansing its own Pashtun population. The refugees
> > speak vividly of their fear and terror as our bombs fall on their cities.
> > These people are terrified of our "war on terror'', victims as innocent as
> > those who were slaughtered in the World Trade Centre on 11 September. So
> > where do we stop?
> 
> Let's see - terrorism has to be accepted because it only kills our
> children on purpose; retaliation is evil because it sometimes kills
> theirs by accident. If we accept the moral equivalence of terror and
> retaliation, the question is not "where do we stop?" but "where do we
> begin?"
> 
> The right of self-defense is as fundamental as the right to life itself.
> Pacifists may comfort themselves with the fuzzy notion that meeting bin
> Laden's demands (and presumably the demands of every other two-bit
> killer with enough cash to buy a Kalashnikov and some plastique) will
> free us of the threat of terrorism; unfortunately, I have studied terror
> for 25 years and know better, so that comfort is denied me. 
> 
> The only real alternatives are (1) retaliate against the attackers, no
> matter who they are or where they lurk, or (2) accept that anybody with
> a grudge against people who are happier than he is has the prerogative
> of taking life with impunity.
> 
> Marc de Piolenc
> Philippines
> 
>

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-26 Thread Paul H Merrill


Well, you could try comparing the reality involved
with multiple cards and see where the patterns
fit.  I know that that is how I find the meanings
of strange databases for which I don't have access
to the data dictionary.  And it really is the same
thing.

PHM

Yeoh Yiu wrote:
> 
> Meyer Wolfsheim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > A friend of mine recently informed me that he has access to a mag-strip
> > reader, and scanned several drivers' licenses (as well as Safeway cards
> > and other random credit-card like items.)
> >
> > Most contained the information displayed on the front of the card, and/or
> > some seemingly random numbers (most likely, the ID numbers.)
> >
> > California DL's have nothing interesting stored in that magstrip that
> > isn't on the front of the card. And no, the signature isn't reflected in
> > the magstrip.
> 
> They might store a long number and without a dictionary you
> don't know what it means.  It's unlikely that older cards
> would use and XMLish annoted data.
> 
> eg does
> 
> 197202281800602
> mean it belongs to a 180# 6'2" person born on Feb 28, 1972 ?
> 
> How could you tell ?
> 
> YY

-- 
Paul H. Merrill, MCNE, MCSE+I, CISSP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Why Plan-9?

On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> > Being 'first' doesn't imply they were 'alone'. You misrepresent
> > reality to your own end.
> 
> Define your market or relevant niche, with specificity.

Computers intended for single-user interactive processing. When looking at
cost/performance/feature for the OS'es current in the late 60's none were
really effective (I'm excluding Language-in-ROM machines - not that any of
them were stellar in performance). What would one day become engineering
workstations and personal computers (which are the same thing today).

A new class of machines was coming out (my first machine was a PDP 8e
running BASIC) and while there were plenty of tools they tended to be
vertical in intent or else not general purpose enough for this sort of
computing. Look at the first couple of years of Byte or Dr. Dobb's for
more specific examples (remember Godbout?) in the personal computer
market.

Which happens to be one of the primary reasons Unix was developed, there
were no realistic choices in the market for this paradigm. So a solution
can trotting along.

We're facing the same sort of thing today with respect to 'grid computing'
and such. All the current OS'es (Linux incl.) are focused on the old style
of solutions. We'll also find that our current views of what IP means will
be found to be as antiquated.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

[psychohistory] Two mistakes (fwd)





Nations with imperial aspirations, invariably, throughout 
History change their conscript based army in favor of an army of paid soldiers. 
Today euphimisticaly called 'profesional' soldiers, but know also as mercenaries 
and soldiers of fortune in the not-so-distant past. (Note: Ligustically a 
"soldier" is 'someone-who-is-SOLD' anyway).
Now this trend is well documented in past history and 
definately has its own Psychohistorical significance as it's one of the notable 
'landmarks' of an Imperium (ie. a nation/state pursuing local/regional/global 
hegemony - dominance).
 
What I find interesting and relating with the above 
'historical' symptom in todays' US history making actions, are two choices made 
by the current US administration. I call those choices 'mistakes' for a number 
of reasons. Both can be atributed to the so-called 'Vietnam Syndrom' of the US 
society, but IMO they go deeper than that, into the effects and side-effects of 
profesional armies.
 
The first is choice is a call for minimal US military 
casualties. OK the general public might have not liked it before 9/11, but in 
retrospect after 9/11 things look different. Think about it. 
First In an imaginary situation. Before, but after as well, 
9/11 even a 'what's-his-name' journalist could arrange a meeting with Bin Laden 
should we belive that he eluded the US inteligence? The answer is that they 
probably knew Bin Laden's location but could not just send 1,000 troops in to 
get him because of the very real probability of high casualties. Of course 
profesional soldiers are in for the money and generally do not look forward to a 
glorious death in Afganistan, but 6,000 civilians died because of this US amy 
inaction. In retrospect the general public would be far more willing to 
'understand' the need of high arny casualties in order to save civilian 
lives.
Second in today's real situation. The US army is stil 
reluctant to go in even though their projected casualties are still far less 
than the 6,000 civilian deat toll. Instead they resort an air campain that 
cannot distinguise between guilty and inocent, slowly making the US look more 
and more like the terrorists, at least in the common Afganis' eyes and not 
only.
6,000 civilians dead and the US military still fights a war 
without the ability to 'afford' military casualties. That's the combination af a 
profesional army with the Vietnam Syndrome. Extremely unproductive too, thus, a 
mistake.
 
The other choice is that they make this 'War-on-terror' a 
non-hero war, at a time that heroes are needed.
First here we can note the overlooking of the first heroes, 
the passengers of Flight 95. They received far less laurels than they deserved - 
unless the US administration 'knows' something we don't abt. the termination of 
Flight 95 (Was it shot down by an F-16 or and F-15 fighter?). Firefighters etc. 
received a heroes treatment for doing their duty, but a hero is someone who does 
beyond duty, like the passengers of Flight 95.
Then there is the choice to keep the two dead servicemen who 
died in Pakistan, nameless. The US administration let pass a unique opportunity 
to make new heroes and show that not only US civilians die in this war, but, 
this fear for casualties struck again and the two dead Americans do not receive 
any heroes treatment. OK they were pros, in for the money, not for death 'n 
glory, but still they could be treated better. Additionaly, I don't think that 
their comrades haven't noticed that their 'sacrifices' do not weight much. That 
can and will affect their morale. Angain a mistake.
 
It is in the best interests of the US and their 
allies go in and finish what they started. This is a time where the general 
public will allow for military casualties, but this 'window' will close, sooner 
than later, and the image of the US will be more damaged than anything 
else.
 
Regards
Christos Konstas






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Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Observer that in the real world, food and clothing is 
> provided by the market, and no one goes hungry or naked, but 

A truly 'white bread' commentary.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> No argument there - I just have a lot of trouble equating terrorism and
> the American war of independence.

Why? The Americans were most certainly terrorist/revolutionaries/freedom
fighters/etc.

> Arms should indeed be taken up against
> those who wantonly murder the innocent.

And if a few innocent get caught in the wrath of your vengeance...well,
God's on our side, right?

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

BOOKS FOR PRISONERS

2001-10-26 Thread Sandy Sandfort

C'punks,

I heard back from my friend who was recently released from federal prison.
She wrote:

> The libraries in federal prisons are
> hideously inadequate largely because
> of the policy governing donations to
> federal prisons...State prisons,
> however, are a horse of a different
> colorFunny, but we [Laissez Faire
> Books] just offered 200+ unsellable
> books to Books For Prisoners and Long
> Haul in Berekely today...I'm working
> with an ex-con who is active with the
> LP in Cal to offer books to prisoners
> at a larger discount...

So, if you'd like to get some books into the prison system, you might talk
to your local Libertarian Party office or contact the Long Haul in Berkeley.

 S a n d y

Re: [9fans] What makes Plan 9 unique? (fwd)

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:03:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Choate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Hangar 18: Re: [9fans] What makes Plan 9 unique? (fwd)

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:56:49 -0400
From: Russ Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [9fans] What makes Plan 9 unique?

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~rsc/plan9.html

Why Plan 9?

Why Plan 9 indeed.  Isn't Plan 9 just another Unix clone?  Who cares?

First, Plan 9 presents a consistent and easy to use interface.  Once
you've settled in, there are very few surprises here, whereas Windows
still surprises me once in a while (though, to its credit, not as much
as older versions did).  After I switched to Linux from Windows 3.1, I
noticed all manner of inconsistent behavior in Windows 3.1 that Linux
did not have.  Switching to Plan 9 from Linux highlighted just as much
in Linux.

One reason Plan 9 can do this is that the Plan 9 group has had the
luxury of having an entire system, so problems can be fixed and
features added where they belong, rather than where they can be.  For
example, there is no tty driver in the kernel.  The window system
handles the nuances of terminal input.

If Plan 9 were just a really clean Unix clone, it might be worth
using, or it might not.  The neat things start happening with
user-level file servers and per-process namespace.  Recall that in
Unix, /dev/tty refers to the current window's output device, and means
different things to different processes.  This is a special hack
enabled by the kernel for a single file.  Plan 9 provides full-blown
per-process namespaces.  Thus, in Plan 9 /dev/cons also refers to the
current window's output device, and means different things to
different processes, but the window system (or telnet daemon, or ssh
daemon, or whoever) arranges this, and does the same for /dev/mouse,
/dev/text (the contents of the current window), etc.

Since pieces of file tree can be provided by user-level servers the
kernel need not know about things like DOS's FAT file system or
Linux's EXT2 file system or NFS, etc.  Instead, user-level servers
provide this functionality when desired.  In Plan 9, even FTP is
provided as a file server: you run ftpfs and the files on the server
appear in /n/ftp.

We need not stop at physical file systems, though.  Other file servers
synthesize files that represent other resources.  For example, upas/fs
presents your mail box as a file tree at /mail/fs/mbox.  This models
the recursive structure of MIME messages especially well.

As another example, cdfs presents an audio or data CD as a file
system, one file per track.  If it's a writable CD, copying new files
into the /mnt/cd/wa or /mnt/cd/wd directories creates new audio or
data tracks.  Want to fixate the CD as audio or data?  Remove one of
the directories.

Finally, Plan 9 fits well with a networked environment.  Since files
or directory trees can be imported from other machines, and all
resources are files or directory trees, it's easy to share resources.
Want to use a different machine's sound card?  Import its /dev/audio.
Want to debug processes that run on another machine?  Import its
/proc.  Want to use a network interface on another machine?  Import
its /net.  And so on.

Slashdot | GNU Carnivore With Perl Data Lookup


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/10/26/224248.shtml
-- 

 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

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RE: Conman, quantum entaglement and no cat

At 04:56 PM 10/24/2001 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>Lucky wrote:
>
> > It would have been more impressive had
> > Copperfield revealed the numbers he
> > predicted an hour /before/ the drawing...
>
>Yes, but that would have required REAL magic (or time travel).

Or rigging the lottery drawing, but surely *that's* never been done :-)
You can also simulate time travel through delayed transmission;
 cf: The Sting
for examples of that.  Probably wasn't done here, but it could have been,
and putting out a broadcast story of "Earlier today, The Amazing Bogomeister
successfully predicted the Powerball Lottery", showing Himself with
the clock in the background *clearly* indicating the time as
an hour before the real lottery drawing took place would reinforce it.

Re: a question

One of the fun things about the internet is that
you can't just put things behind you -
information is never forgotten unless it's useful.
There are flames I wrote on Usenet back in the early 80s archived;
if only it were as easy to find the useful stuff.
As the song says, "C'mon Joe, you can always change your name".

At 04:17 PM 10/24/2001 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, (na) mshoe wrote:
>
> > I first want you to know I understand what you do but

If you did know, you'd have written to the people who run the
archives, not the people on the mailing list you once spammed,
not that either will erase it.  And there's more than one archive.

Looks like the Mitch's original "remove-me" request didn't make it to the 
lne.com list,
but it's in the inet-one archives.   Tim's reply included the spam.
The address of Mitch Shoemaker, the spammer, looks very much like
the address of
SHOEMAKER'S AUTO BODY  82  Iron St Rear N  Bloomsburg PA 17815 (717) 784-3585

which probably explains why none of the four listings in Anywho
have the same address as Mitch the spammer.
Shoemaker, Angie  90 Alexis Dr  BLOOMSBURG, PA 17815  570-389-1834
Shoemaker, Charles E  345 E 8 St  BLOOMSBURG, PA 17815  570-784-2690
Shoemaker, Paul  90 Alexis Dr  BLOOMSBURG, PA 17815  570-389-1834
Shoemaker, William L  918 E 7 St  BLOOMSBURG, PA 17815  570-784-1218

I'm guessing that the area code for Shoemaker's auto body is now 570.

> > I need to ask you to please remove the post from
> > http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.05.07-2001.05.13/msg00330.html
>
>Information wants to be Free, Mitch.  Kinda sucks to be you, doesn't it?
>
> > I am only 16 and just wanted to get some money the
> > easy way at the time I had no idea that it was illegal.

You should have known that it was rude and deceptive,
and had some clue that the only way you can make money from it is
by getting a bunch of suckers to lose money.
Whether or not that's illegal is really a secondary issue.

Re: Democratic critters' biochemwomdterror plans


At 03:33 PM 10/24/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>* * * * * MEDIA ADVISORY * * * * *
>>
>>NEWS FROM THE OFFICE OF THE DEMOCRATIC LEADER

That's a bizarre enough title all by itself.
Of course, the Gepper isn't the Democratic Party Fearless Leader,
though he is the leader of the Congresscritters of the
Democratic Party.



>>__
>>
>>FOR IMMEDIATE 
>>RELEASE:  House 
>>Democratic Leader Richard A. Gephardt
>>Wednesday, October 23, 2001 H-204, U.S. Capitol
>>
>>http://democraticleader.house.gov/
>>
>>GEPHARDT, MENENDEZ TO ANNOUNCE DEMOCRATIC BIOTERRORISM LEGISLATION

So are they in favor of it, or against it?



>>WASHINGTON, DC -- Rep. Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Vice Chair of the Democratic 
>>Caucus and
>>Chair of the Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security,

These titles keep sounding more and more like the Committee for State Security
or the Committee for Public Safety.

>>joined by Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt and Members of the Task 
>>Force, will announce the Democratic proposal to prepare and protect 
>>communities throughout America against future threats or attacks.
>>
>>The Democratic Bill, the Bioterrorism Protection Act (BioPAct) of 2001, 
>>seeks to eliminate biological threats, secure our borders on land and at 
>>sea, protect our food and water, equip our communities with the resources 
>>to prevent and respond to bioterrorism, and strengthen our Intelligence 
>>through full coordination, using our most advanced technology to fight 
>>bioterrorism.
>>
>>WHO: Gephardt, Menendez, Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security
>>WHAT: Democratic Bioterrorism Bill
>>WHEN: Thursday, October 25th, 10:00 a.m
>>WHERE: House Triangle
>>(This event will replace the usual stakeout following the Democratic Caucus)
>>###

Re: A champion of liberty speaks about privacy, cash smuggling

She said "interstate".  That's WITHIN the US, not even outside the country.
That means she wants you busted if you take cash across state lines
without reporting it to the Proper Authorities, who can of course
confiscate it as suspected drug money.  Fortunately, that failed.

You'll have to read the passed bill to find out whatever atrocious
things they've added to your ability to engage in foreign commerce.

At 07:48 PM 10/24/2001 -0700, John Kozubik wrote:
> >The bill is not perfect. I am sorry that, for example, we excluded
> > making it a crime to smuggle over $10,000 interstate. We included it
> > for overseas, but it was not included for interstate. Nevertheless,
> > this is an excellent bill.
>
>Can someone clarify the definition, in this context, of "smuggling" ?
>Does this mean that $10,000 in cash can no longer be taken out of the
>country, or does it mean that it can no longer be taken out of the country
>in a secretive manner ?
>
>For as long as I have been traveling internationally, I have been required
>to declare all cash amounts larger than $10,000.  Does this mean that
>previously it was not a crime to not make such a declaration, and now it
>is ?
>
>-
>John Kozubik - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.kozubik.com

Re: Democratic critters' biochemwomdterror plans

2001-10-26 Thread Dr. Evil


> >>WASHINGTON, DC -- Rep. Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Vice Chair of the Democratic 
> >>Caucus and
> >>Chair of the Democratic Task Force on Homeland Security,
> 
> These titles keep sounding more and more like the Committee for State Security
> or the Committee for Public Safety.

Bring back the SLORC!

Re: Why Plan-9?

2001-10-26 Thread Karsten M. Self

on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:35:36PM -0500, Jim Choate ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> 
> > > Being 'first' doesn't imply they were 'alone'. You misrepresent
> > > reality to your own end.
> > 
> > Define your market or relevant niche, with specificity.
> 
> Computers intended for single-user interactive processing. 

The problem I've got with this response is that Unix and GNU/Linux
aren't computers, they're operating systems.  Unix was written to run on
those computers "that didn't exist", largely the PDP 7 and 11.

I was seeing the market as the *operating systems* running on these
computers.  While I'll concede that Unix and GNU/Linux probably drove
hardware, the fact is that both emerged in environments where there were
existing OSs running, almost always preinstalled, on the hardware of
choice for each system:  RSX-11D, TWENEX, VMS.  The Jargon file has
TWENEX users migrating to Unix in the 1980s.  For larger systms, VM/CMS
still has its fans.

I guess the question would be:  what other OSs were popular in research
environments at the time?  What benefits did Unix offer?  What timeframe
are we discussing?  Again, public availability of Unix seems to have
come after 1974.

> A new class of machines was coming out (my first machine was a PDP 8e
> running BASIC) and while there were plenty of tools they tended to be
> vertical in intent or else not general purpose enough for this sort of
> computing. Look at the first couple of years of Byte or Dr. Dobb's for
> more specific examples (remember Godbout?) in the personal computer
> market.

As I've indicated, I'm not as old as you think I am.  Unix and I are
close to the same age.  My real awareness starts in the early to mid
1980s, some exceptions.

Incidentally, if you want to remenisce, there's a DEC timeline here:

http://www.montagar.com/dfwcug/VMS_HTML/timeline/1964-3.htm
http://www.montagar.com/dfwcug/VMS_HTML/timeline/DECHISTORY.HTM

> Which happens to be one of the primary reasons Unix was developed,
> there were no realistic choices in the market for this paradigm. So a
> solution can trotting along.

I'm unconvinced.

Again, the PDP series, notably the '7 & '11, as well as the HP 3000,
stand out in searches as significant mini systems of the day.  I have to
assume they included operating systems.

And again, GNU/Linux emerged in a universe of PC operating systems:
DOS, Macintosh, OS/2, Xenix, Minix, BSDi.  

In both cases, the newcomer (Unix/Linux) emerged as a technically
inferior system, but (rapidly or otherwise) outpaced its competition due
to architecture, licensing, and social factors.

Regarding your comment (two posts back) that Linux was coincident with
the Internet:  yes, I agree that this was a formative factor.  I have no
doubt that if Linus hadn't come along, another solution would have
emerged, the time was ripe.  GNU/Linux happened to be best-of-breed.

> We're facing the same sort of thing today with respect to 'grid
> computing' and such. All the current OS'es (Linux incl.) are focused
> on the old style of solutions. We'll also find that our current views
> of what IP means will be found to be as antiquated.

References?

-- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

 PGP signature

Re: CDR: Re: A champion of liberty speaks about privacy, cashsmuggling

2001-10-26 Thread measl

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Bill Stewart wrote:

> >For as long as I have been traveling internationally, I have been required
> >to declare all cash amounts larger than $10,000.  Does this mean that
> >previously it was not a crime to not make such a declaration, and now it
> >is ?

I suspect that this little tidbit is there to ratify if you will a rather
common procedure amonst LEOs who encounter abounts in excess of 10,000.00
in cash - immediate confiscation as "suspected drug" money. Once this
happens, it is necessary for the defendant to perform the impossible feat,
prove a negative assertion, in order to retrieve the confiscated cash
(less all "costs for maintaining it" of course!  My 5,000.00 came back as
a little under 4,000.00 in just six months - and I was one of the _very_
lucky ones!

> >
> >-
> >John Kozubik - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.kozubik.com
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: Why Plan-9?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> The problem I've got with this response is that Unix and GNU/Linux
> aren't computers, they're operating systems.  Unix was written to run on
> those computers "that didn't exist", largely the PDP 7 and 11.

An OS without a computer is worthless. What drives the architecture of
OS'es (other than mental mastrubation) is applications and applications
environments. In the very late 60's there was a growth in the
computers::person ratio coupled with a great increase in #_computers as a
whole. This led to a problem of scale and scope. Problems that Unix was
able to resolve in a usable way (as 30 years of use will attest). Most
other OS'es weren't. Not that Unix was the only alternative (eg C/PM).
However, the sorts of problems used in a day to day business/activity
creates a 'natural' schism. That is based around the distinctions between
design/engineering and business-home/industry. Unix found a first home in
the first. The 'smaller' OS'es found homes in the second. Each expanded
into the others realm until today. Whence we have several set of originaly
niche market solutions. These solutions have now saturated the market.
However, there are forces that are changing the market radicaly. Moving
from a real 'network is the computer' model. The reality is that the four
horsemen of the network (software, hardware, infrastructure, law) are
going to be replaced in the next 5 or so years with an almost completely
different model. These differences will serve to amplify the current
stresses and schisms in our societies.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: web.archive.org Internet archive to open ---google + archeology

It's not as outrageous as you'd think.  100GB drives are around $200,
which means that a terabyte will cost you about $3K if you throw in a PC
and some networking gear to connect it, so you could replicate that
in your basement next to your DES-cracker for about the same price -
the more expensive problem is getting the fiber optic connection
from the Presidio to your basement to keep it updated.

More to the point, recent news articles say the Feds have been
getting Google to delete things for them.
 http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00505.html
Anybody know what's been deleted, and whether it's still in Wayback,
and whether we can get copies out into the public before anyone pressures
Brewster Kahle?

At 06:10 PM 10/25/2001 +0100, Tolan Blundell wrote:
>Thats fine, I've got a 100TB server in my attic you can use if you want? ;)

>jbdigriz:
>Way cool. It needs to be mirrored, though. Single point of
>failure/distribution invites history being rewritten the way it always
>has been until now.

> > http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102501archive.story
> > By JOSEPH MENN, Times Staff Writer
> >
> > SAN FRANCISCO -- An Internet archive containing more text than any
> > library in history will open its digital doors today, giving researchers
> > and the public access to just about everything posted on the World Wide
> > Web over the last five years.

Re: CDR: Re: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias

2001-10-26 Thread Malcolm Idaho


Tim May wrote:
(...snip...)
> (For those outside the U.S., a word of explanation. For some reason,
> political mappers showed votes for Al Gore in _blue_ and votes for Bush
> in _red_. I have no idea how this came to be...I had never noticed it
> until this past election. In fact, it was only in this past election
> that most of the commentators glommed on this "look at the red parts of
> the map versus the blue parts of the map" meme, so apparently a lot of
> us got exposed to this red vs. blue mapping only recently.)
(...snip...)

View the map in question here:

http://www.nukewoody.com/electmap.jpg

MI

Re: Cryptography and the Present Crisis

2001-10-26 Thread Morlock Elloi


> It is time for cypherpunks to go back to their roots.  Let us put the
> cypher back in cypherpunk.  There are other places where people can whine

You mean ... stop the impotent bitching, despair, amendments mythology,
fantasizing about killings and sheer bullshit that flourishes when testosterone
meets obesity and actually promote crypto to the unwashed ?

What a radical idea.



=
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Re: CDR: Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )

2001-10-26 Thread F. Marc de Piolenc

Jim Choate wrote:

> Why? The Americans were most certainly terrorist/revolutionaries/freedom
> fighters/etc.

Again, you make no distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists,
which is very sad because there is a rather important difference. Being
incapable of making the distinction, you are condemned to hate everybody
who fights.

> > Arms should indeed be taken up against
> > those who wantonly murder the innocent.
> 
> And if a few innocent get caught in the wrath of your vengeance...well,
> God's on our side, right?

Right is certainly on our side. I'm an atheist, so I have no concern for
God's opinions.

Marc de Piolenc
Philippines 
>  --
> 
> 
>  The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
> 
>  Edmund Burke (1784)
> 
>The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
>Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
>-~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
> 

-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

Rather than make war on the American people and their
liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways
to empower them to protect themselves when
warranted.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

Re: CDR: [psychohistory] Two mistakes (fwd)

2001-10-26 Thread F. Marc de Piolenc

> Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> Nations with imperial aspirations, invariably, throughout History
> change their conscript based army in favor of an army of paid
> soldiers. Today euphimisticaly called 'profesional' soldiers, but know
> also as mercenaries and soldiers of fortune in the not-so-distant
> past. (Note: Ligustically a "soldier" is 'someone-who-is-SOLD'
> anyway).

Psst - your ignorance is showing! The French term "soldier" refers to a
warrior who is paid - "solde" means pay - as contrasted originally with
feudal levies, who were not. Nowadays the distinction is meaningless
because even conscripts are paid at regular rates, so we say
"professional soldier" for a volunteer and "conscript" for a short-term
draftee. 

A . "Salary," by the way, refers to a portion of the pay of the Roman
legionaire, which was paid in salt.

> Now this trend is well documented in past history and definately has
> its own Psychohistorical significance as it's one of the notable
> 'landmarks' of an Imperium (ie. a nation/state pursuing
> local/regional/global hegemony - dominance).

The US eliminates involuntary military servitude, and you call it
imperialism. It develops a career army, and you call it mercenary. I
know this won't make any impression on you, but do try to consider the
obvious military advantages of having continuity in training, experience
and DISCIPLINE. I would just add that by your criterion, Canada must be
planning to take over the world because they have always had a
professional military in all services!

> Of course profesional soldiers are in for the money and
> generally do not look forward to a glorious death in Afganistan,

Have you ever actually talked to a US soldier? I don't think anybody
"looks forward" to death in combat, but if you think our military is
intimidated by the likes of OBL or the Taliban, you obviously don't know
much about the current state of morale in the US military. And your
ignorance shows again when you say professional soldiers are "in it for
the money" - you contradict yourself. How much would it cost to convince
YOU to put your life on the line? There probably isn't enough money in
the world for that, because you are a moral coward, and such people tend
to be physical cowards as well. Fortunately, your kind is the exception,
something you are naturally incapable of perceiving from your
perspective.

Marc de Piolenc

Re: Market Competition for Security Measures

2001-10-26 Thread jamesd


--
On 25 Oct 2001, at 0:00, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> > > A bare one objection to comprehensive market based 
> > > security: a market needs private property, and other 
> > > civil rights, in order to function efficiently, as 
> > > predicted.   Protection is what guarantees those 
> > > rights. If you place protection on the market, you no 
> > > longer have a guarantee that the market itself can 
> > > function as originally intended.

On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >And if we place food on the market, we no longer have a 
> >guarantee that anyone will be able to eat :-)

 On 26 Oct 2001, at 0:18, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> Of course. The point is, the market can work perfectly well 
> in the absence of sufficient nutrition for all of the 
> participants.

 But the market, unlike those wise benevolent folk who
consider themselves morally superior to the market, DOES
provide sufficient nutrition for all the participants,
whereas whenever the wise and good have set themselves in
charge of providing nutrition for all, or X for all, they
have usually failed no matter what the value of X.

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 uzxAd0pvJ5PX1jXw2p1edtML+I4VCxipiT4j/VrF
 4V36lFs1xXlyoMvT6s5LYzy9iPrB3N+ruHLpuZfID

Re: Neverending Cycle ( was : Re: USPS: glowing by leaps and bounds )

[Warning: Use of 3rd person 'you']

On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Again, you make no distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists,
> which is very sad because there is a rather important difference. Being
> incapable of making the distinction, you are condemned to hate everybody
> who fights.

It's a false distinction. What it boils down to is two or more groups
taking up arms to control all groups. One can eulogize about ethics and
morality until the cows come home. Won't change the basic fact that any
such conclusions are not only arbitrary but transient. There is no
absolute right and wrong outside of human psychology. The American
colonist certainly qualified in the 'terrorist' department with their
burning of warehouses and physical assaults on British sympathisers. At
the same time they were sitting in various political offices and economic
posts.

To 'hate' is the issue, the scale is irrelevent. Stop the hate. Stop the
use of violence. Their failure does not justify yours.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...



Quoting Sandy Sandfort ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> "Onin wal-a bin Hakkin" wrote:
> 
> > but in all candor, dont ya think
> > that if a guy is there who SHOULDNT
> > be there, he wouldnt be there
> > after a decent timeframe of investigation?
> 
> If you were innocent of any crime and were thrown in the slammer with bad
> people and given no opportunity to contact friends or lawyers, what would
> you consider "a decent timeframe of investigation" before they cut you
> loose?  If/when they did cut you loose would you say, "Hey, no hard feeling,
> I know you have a job to do," or would you seek some sort of compensation?

That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be
understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead
to minor inconveniences.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.

Get Rid of Your Bills!

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RE: James Glassman wants national IDs: "We have to give up" privacy

2001-10-26 Thread Blanc


>From Mark Talbot:

:I have yet to see a post 9/11 scheme that would actually enhance my
:safety in any significant way. Even police states have terrorists.
--



I was listening on the radio some days ago to a journalist from Sri Lanka
describing how strict and thorough the security is in their region.
Nevertheless they still have bombings.  And for every bomb, and the deaths
of relatives and friends, another terrorist 'is born' who wants vengeance.

A local problem the legislators have overlooked is that there are young
teenage boys in typical American homes who even now may be planning to blast
away their high schools.  If they actually carry out their grievances in the
next four years, under the new rules they and their families and even their
friends will be classified as terrorists and supporters.

Furthermore, under the new rules which allow all sorts of surveillance, many
public officials themselves are likely to be the first ones caught doing
illegal things or having their personal indecencies intercepted.  And they
may be the first to figure out imaginative ways around the surveillance -
which would be really useful.

  ..
Blanc

Re: Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...



Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> 
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Steve Thompson wrote:
> 
> > That would be my view.  After all, mistakes do happen and so we should all be
> > understanding of our and their all-too-human failings which occasionaly lead
> > to minor inconveniences.
> 
> "minor inconveniences"???  Never been in so much as a holding pen I
> see.  Maybe you should ask to tour your nearest facility, just to get
> enough information to evaluate the relative "inconvenience" of this
> scenario - your current view is *totally* unrealistic.

I suppose I could be naive.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.

Re: Pravda Propaganda On The NRA, GOA and Militias

2001-10-26 Thread Tim May

On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 08:27 AM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

Matt Gaylor has forwarded this article. My profound thanks to him. This 
is one of the most insightful articles I've seen on the real internal 
political situation in the U.S., the "red" vs. "blue" separation.

Truly ironic that it takes a "red" to understand the "reds" in the U.S.

(For those outside the U.S., a word of explanation. For some reason, 
political mappers showed votes for Al Gore in _blue_ and votes for Bush 
in _red_. I have no idea how this came to be...I had never noticed it 
until this past election. In fact, it was only in this past election 
that most of the commentators glommed on this "look at the red parts of 
the map versus the blue parts of the map" meme, so apparently a lot of 
us got exposed to this red vs. blue mapping only recently.)

While there's still a little bit of "propaganda" language in the 
article, it is generally a more incisive analysis of the developing 
trends in American politics than nearly all of what passes for analysis 
by American journalists.

I urge people to read the full article carefully. I'll only comment on a 
handful of paragraphs.

--Tim May

> 
>
> Oct, 18 2001
> 20:11 2001-10-18
>
> BILL WHITE: GUN GROUPS SEE STEADY BLEED INTO MILITIAS; DOMESTIC UNREST 
> STILL GROWING IN UNITED STATES
> There are three issues that motivate America's militia movement - 
> support of gun rights, opposition to taxation, and opposition to the 
> United Nations and the loss of America's sovereignty to global 
> corporate rule - a system the militias see as socialism and 
> anti-globalists label capitalism, and which is really a blend of the 
> worst elements of the two.

Amazing that a Russian publication (is it really Russian, or just 
reprinted by them?) gets this so right. Nearly all American journalists 
just babble about skinheads and survivalists when they talk about the 
militia movement.

> Among these issues, the most important, the one that seems most 
> immediately threatening, and which has been the prime motivation for 
> the existence of the militia movement, has been the possibility of 
> nation-wide confiscation of firearms by the US Federal government.

Indeed.

> The Real Activists
>
> The Southern Poverty Law Center, a rather shady group of lawyers who 
> make profit by suing organizations they label as "hateful",

Wow. It takes a Russian to call a spade a spade.

The SPLC is the most anti-liberty organization in the U.S. Words fail me 
in describing them.

> One militia group based in Southern values that recently drew attention 
> was the Militia of Georgia, an armed formation consisting of what 
> researchers claim is 300 men who operate in at least 20 cells 
> throughout the state, which ordered its members to mobilize in the wake 
> of the September 11 bombings, and to be on guard against attempts by 
> the government to use the bombings to create a New World Order.

This move to a police state took a big move forward this morning, 
October 26th.

> The Potential For Separatism
>
> America's Southerners aren't the only regional-ethnic groups seeking 
> independence from the cosmopolitan internationalism of the nations' 
> elite. Rural New Englanders have launched a "blood and soil" separatist 
> movement of their own. Carolyn Chute's Second Maine Militia, a group 
> that has mixed right-wing, left-wing, and green politics, as well as 
> regional ethnic identity and national separatism, into a 500+ man armed 
> formation based in Northern New England and Canada's eastern provinces, 
> re-released a manifesto calling for people in New England and Canada to 
> revolt and create a new nation - the New Atlantic Confederacy - 
> independent of either government, should the impending war on terrorism 
> cause the central government to lose the ability to maintain control in 
> America's more remote rural areas. Her movement is explicitly pro-gun 
> and anti-capitalist, and deals regularly with other "right-wing" 
> militia organization active in the area. As Chute put it in a 2000 
> interview:

No particular comment on this excerpt, but I include it to give a flavor 
of this guy's detailed understanding (he knows a lot more than I do 
about militia movements, that's for sure!).

> "Behind all those urban killings are people created by the Great 
> Progressive Society. These people are not revolting against the Great 
> Progressive Society. They are raw imitations of the Great Progressive 
> Society. We are led to believe that the professional middle class are 
> the winners, the working class are the losers. As I see it, class is 
> about values, dependence and ways of communicating. The working class 
> person values place, interdependence, cooperation, the tribe. Rural 
> working class especially values land. Many of us would kill to keep our 
> land, our home, which for thousands of years was not considered a crazy 
> thing to do

Asscruft Puffery

2001-10-26 Thread Subcommander Bob


At 07:42 AM 10/26/01 -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
>Deliberate vagueness on Asscruft's part, I suspect. As I understand it,

He is strutting and puffing like a rooster who watches his hens being
taken away
by a fox.

At least Reno was scary, neither are convincing.

reponse to USA bill (1)

2001-10-26 Thread citizenq


A strategic approach is necessary to accomplish anything in response to the "USA" bill 
and the upcoming push for a National ID. It will take outreach and education over a 
long period of time 

First step is, once more, a red-line version so its obfuscation can be reduced and the 
real language changes seen and assessed.

I'll be starting this ASAP --- anyone interested in taking on portions of the task, or 
any organization better equipped to manage the task, please contact me at this 
address.  If such a red-line exists, wider distribution of it would be very helpful, 
and save a lot of work!

Re: Assasination politics 3,Terra Australis



Quoting mattd ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> Professor fights like a cornered rat...AP trial 3?...can this be the end of 
> RICO.
> 
> Previously unpublished
> by macedon ranges gaurdian 11:11pm Fri Oct 26 '01
> 
> 
> A dead tree story that has just been collated.Relevance is the seizing by 
> police of citizens laptop and holding for nearly 5 months without charges 
> presented.
> M1 PROTESTER GIVEN BAIL-BUT OTHER POLICE INTERESTED

The Australian Federal Police sound as though they are being maliciously
incompetent.  Copying a laptop hard-drive should take no more than about an
hour; and they aren't going to boot the laptop in order to inspect it for
obvious reasons.


Regards,

Steve

-- 
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc.

The end of the Fourth Amendment

2001-10-26 Thread Tim May

On Friday, October 26, 2001, at 05:38 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

Too many totalitarian surveillance state measures to comment on, but the 
"sneak and peek" provision is such a slam dunk violation of the Fourth 
Amendment that it bears special comment.

>Other sections of the USA Act, which the House approved by a 357 to 
> 66
>vote on Wednesday, that do not expire include the following:
>
>  * Police can sneak into someone's house or office, search the
>contents, and leave without ever telling the owner. This would be
>supervised by a court, and the notification of the surreptitious
>search "may be delayed" indefinitely. (Section 213)

Anyone caught inside a house or office should be dealt with in the most 
expeditiious manner possible.

Anyone picked up on crittercam surveillance cameras, and identified by 
any means, should be dealt with later. The offices and judges who order 
such sneak and peek invasions shluld be dealt with as well.

All of those who passed this law have, in my political opinion, earned 
the death penalty,

--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater

Ministry of truth: ABC anchor regrets remarks

2001-10-26 Thread Khoder bin Hakkin


[Yes ABC is a nominally private entity (modulo their govt license
and use of spectrum) but note that she was speaking on her own
time.]

Friday October 26 02:16 AM EDT

By Andrew Grossman

NEW YORK (The Hollywood Reporter) --- ABC anchorwoman Carole Simpson on
Thursday said she regretted some
of the remarks she made at an Oct. 16 conference that led to her
two-week suspension from Sunday's "World News
Tonight."

The network took that action in the wake of her speech to the
International Women's Media Foundation in New York
where she revealed various details about the 7-month-old infant who
contracted anthrax and his mother, a producer at
ABC.

Simpson's comments were particularly ill-timed because network
executives had announced the illness only the night
before and were still trying to communicate information to the media and
ABC employees about the situation. In her
speech, Simpson gave away the sex of the child -- a boy -- and revealed
the producer's identity -- she was Simpson's
producer.

Executives were also upset about Simpson telling the conference that
"This Week" co-host Cokie Roberts had received a
suspicious letter postmarked Trenton, N.J., in the Washington bureau,
where Simpson also works.

But the letter proved innocent and it did not come from Trenton, leaving
officials livid that Simpson had bypassed the
network's process for disseminating anthrax information.

In her statement, Simpson said she regretted sharing the erroneous
information, saying: "When any of us in this
profession makes a mistake, it's important to say so." But she made no
mention of her revelations about the mother's
and baby's identities.

ABC News declined to comment, saying it was a personnel matter.

Chris Bury replaced Simpson on Oct. 21. Simpson is due back Nov. 4.

-
"Propoganda outlets are military targets" -NATO during FRYwar

Re: Where The Torture Never Stops...