resend, lne problems

[Declan McCullagh]

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Content-Description: Undelivered Message
From: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Why not to move to DC and become a lobbyist
To: Faustine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:21:53 -0500
X-URL: http://www.mccullagh.org/
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Faustine says:
>There's no reason you can't keep your hardcore beliefs to yourself while
>doing the most rigorous and objective analysis you can. 

This is an attractive, but, alas, naive plan.

So your closeted-libertarian-analyst presents a "rigorous and objective
analysis" saying raising the minimum wage will put people out of work?
Your opponents will present someone who argues otherwise. Your analyst
says that gun control saves lives? Opponents will ring up Handgun Control.
Your analyst says that his interpretation of the Commerce Clause
is the correct one? Someone else will cite chapter and verse otherwise.

That's even assuming you get equal time, which naturally doesn't
happen. DC is a two-party town, and GOP leaders like the size of
government just about where it is now. Oh, they might argue it should
be reduced five percent at the margins, but the big-government fans
still are griping about ONE minor federal agency (OTA) getting axed
years ago, so you won't get very far. Look what happened to the 1994
"Republican revolution." Let's not even talk about what some of the
expansionist Dems (and some GOPers) would do. Paging Sen. Feinstein...

The reality is that sober arguments have little traction in DC. (If
they did, we wouldn't be where we are now.) The currencies are votes,
money, celebrity. If you can't spend any of those in massive amounts,
don't bother showing up.

> Sadly enough, you're probably right.
> But isn't it about time somebody started trying? I think so.

Again, you're naive. Cato, CEI, IHS, IJ, have tried. Victory is
not exactly expected anytime soon.

Might as well write code, as someone once said.

-Declan


- End forwarded message -

Re: Sedition

[keyser-soze]

At 08:34 PM 11/13/2001 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--
> > Federal law prohibits paramilitary training and the
> > manufacture or transport of weapons with the knowledge or
> > intent that they will be used to create a civil 
> > disturbance. (Ref 10) Federal law differs from most state
> > laws prohibiting paramilitary training in that it applies
> > only to the trainers, not the trainees. Under most state
> > laws governing paramilitary training, participation as a
> > trainee is also illegal.

On 12 Nov 2001, at 21:38, Tim May wrote:
> Unconstitutional nonsense.
>
> So, Agent Faustine, report me.

In my observation, obviously unconstitutional laws tend to be
selective applied against people that are unsympathetic, and,
most importantly, cannot afford lawyers. 


Fortunately we can all afford firearms, some of high accuracy, range and penetration.  
Soon we may all be able to afford tools for individually selective bioagents and WoMD. 
 What these downtrodden need most is a bit of ideological enlightenment and training.

Tim, would you care to name your favorite "militia" training web sites?  Anyone know 
if any of the once popular but now out-of-print Palladin books are circulating in 
e-book form?

Re: Soldiers celebrate with executions - smh.com.au - World

[jamesd]

--
t is standard procedure in Afghanistan to kill foreigners who
are on the losing side.  If they spare afghans they are being
more tolerant than usual.

Indeed, this represents a major step forward in civilization
and humane treatment of the defeated.  The old Afghan
procedure was that foreign prisoners would be skinned alive
by the women. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 wLvOZhIyn/vltWRywoHfFfcnchF8Qq9lQKG55lyK
 4x2MLWHvy2+6xXTHhNbcUInGPUh/nhV1YKfkER8gM

Re: Cypherpunks Rating System

[Declan McCullagh]

Right. It's not something that I'm going to contribute to -- I don't
have time to go through my posts over a six-or-whatever-year period. 
But if wossname wants to do something mildly useful, that would be
somewhat more sane than PICSifying every post.

-Declan


On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 02:40:42PM +1100, Ralph Wallis wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 Nov 2001 at 10:59, Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > (If you really wanted to do something that might be useful, you'd
> > pick the more interesting threads from the dawn of the list, insert
> > them into a good search utility, and make that available for searching
> > and .tar.gz downloading.')
> 
> the cypherpunks.venona.com archive started doing this some time ago.
> Ryan asked for suggestions on which threads to highlight. There was
> a lack of enthusiastic participants.

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Old-Subject: Re: Maine National Guard bars Green Party leader from flying
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> "Blanc" =3D=3D Blanc  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> From Raymond D. Mereniuk:

Blanc> :I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and everythin=
g is
Blanc> :totally predictable, something America appears to be moving away
Blanc> :from at this moment.
Blanc> --

Blanc> But the situation *is* entirely predictable:

Blanc> Some people in scary positions of responsibility do not
Blanc> want to see, hear, or know The Truth, because they don't
Blanc> know what to do about it.  It's all symbolism and familiar
Blanc> stereotype - if you want to ge

Re: Sedition

[jamesd]

--
> > Federal law prohibits paramilitary training and the
> > manufacture or transport of weapons with the knowledge or
> > intent that they will be used to create a civil 
> > disturbance. (Ref 10) Federal law differs from most state
> > laws prohibiting paramilitary training in that it applies
> > only to the trainers, not the trainees. Under most state
> > laws governing paramilitary training, participation as a
> > trainee is also illegal.

On 12 Nov 2001, at 21:38, Tim May wrote:
> Unconstitutional nonsense.
>
> So, Agent Faustine, report me.

In my observation, obviously unconstitutional laws tend to be
selective applied against people that are unsympathetic, and,
most importantly, cannot afford lawyers. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 eZYA39J/SxZX58rliPwWpS60vIeG4es982gl0jKy
 4DZuq0YWXG0k1alT3ivx5tFtuw9WjujtxHELLH//+

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> "Raymond" =3D=3D Raymond D Mereniuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raymond> I kinda like a place where there is a rule of law and
Raymond> everything is totally predictable, something America
Raymond> appears to be moving away from at this moment.

So much for "Security for Freedom"... if you can't trust the "Security
Personnel", how can you be secure?

Benji Franklin comes to mind...

Bye, J

--=20
  J=FCrgen A. Erhard  ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])
 My WebHome: http://jerhard.org
  G

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Re: Soldiers Celebrate with executions

[Tim May]

On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 04:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Golly gee willikers, you mean it's not all beard-shaving,
> turban-tossing, music and dancing in the streets? You mean our own news
> agencies were just spewing propaganda? Now ain't that a surprise? Why do
> you suppose they would do that?
>

Why is anyone surprised?

Isn't it what many in these united states are hoping for when the 
statist occupiers in Washington, D.C. are dealt with? Heads on pikes, 
gallows on the Mall, crematoria in Anacostia?

At least a hundred thousand Taliban will be liquidated in the coming 
weeks.


--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"

Re: Soldiers Celebrate with executions

[mmotyka]

Golly gee willikers, you mean it's not all beard-shaving,
turban-tossing, music and dancing in the streets? You mean our own news
agencies were just spewing propaganda? Now ain't that a surprise? Why do
you suppose they would do that?

Soldiers celebrate with executions - smh.com.au - World

[Jim Choate]

The last sentence is the one of interest...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/0111/14/world/world4.html

-- 

 --


 Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

 Bumper Sticker

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Waco Prosecutor Admits Lying To Superiors Gets Probation

[Matthew Gaylor]

Attorney in Waco case gets probation

Prosecutor admits lying to superiors

06/08/2001

By Joe Stange / Associated Press

ST. LOUIS - Former federal prosecutor Bill Johnston was sentenced 
Thursday to two years of probation for withholding information about 
exploding tear-gas canisters used during the 1993 Branch Davidian 
siege near Waco.

In refusing a federal prosecutor's recommendation of a jail sentence, 
U.S. District Judge Charles Shaw said Mr. Johnston's motivation did 
not appear to be devious and also ordered him to perform 200 hours of 
community service.

[...]

**
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words subscribe FA
on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
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**

The Register - To be or not to 802.11b...

[Jim Choate]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/22815.html
-- 

 --


 Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

 Bumper Sticker

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Sedition

[Faustine]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

declan wrote:
On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 02:20:28PM -0500, Faustine wrote:
> It sure is. That's why I think (and have always openly said, here and
> everywhere) we need more pro-freedom policy analysts in Washington.

>Of course, if you're a hardcore libertarian ("abolish all
>unconstitutional federal agencies, and that's most of 'em! let's
>revert back to the firearms laws we had 150 years ago!"), then you
>don't get listened to.

Who says all libertarians are obliged to come on like a ton of bricks?
There's no reason you can't keep your hardcore beliefs to yourself while
doing the most rigorous and objective analysis you can. That's the one
real difference between being just another partisan and a serious analyst
who commands repsect, when you think of it. 

Earning a reputation for using only the highest standards and most rigorous
methodology comes first, the way I see it. Your principles and priorities
never change, but by not revealing them to people all at once, you're able to
find your way into projects and situations where they can have a significant
impact. That's the plan, anyway.


>Having more "pro freedom policy analysts" in Washington won't
>accomplish much until other things change too.

Sadly enough, you're probably right.
But isn't it about time somebody started trying? I think so.

~Faustine.


***
The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms.
- --William O. Douglas, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court

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Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its 
affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)

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7sbb9F8lmeMtKq8Lkc3E6Sw1
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Re: Sedition

[Faustine]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Tim wrote:
On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 11:20 AM, Faustine wrote:

> Fine. I dont know why you seem to be missing my point: being provoked 
> into incriminating yourself by an anonymous troll is an entirely different 
> issue from discussing the substance of whatever it is you happen to be doing.
> No, _you_ miss the point: that I was not "incriminating" myself in any 
> way.

I'll bet you all were running the risk of facing arbitrary enforcement of a
whole slew of restrictions on firearms, explosives, etc. Talking about organized
training in a public forum isn't going to make it any easier for you.


>You and your kind need to read up on Burroughs' "The Policeman Inside."
>"If we do not censor ourselves, others will do it for us."
>"Cypherpunks should voluntarily restrict the topics they discuss."
>"We should impose voluntary self-labeling of all posts, so that Congress 
>will not."
>"I must not think certain thoughts, and I must report others who do."

Quite a nice little collection of straw men you have there. Too bad for you
they have nothing to do with what I think. The archives speak for
themselves; I doubt you can find one post where I said any of that claptrap.


> I just happen to have this gut-level common sense belief that if people 
> might  be able to use something against any given person, it's 
> counterproductive and
> potentially dangerous to broadcast it the way you always do.
>>Ah, weapons training by me and my friends is somehow counterproductive 
>>and dangerous? The fact that the First and Second Amendments protect 
>>such activities is counterproductive and dangerous to you?

Absolutely not. I've made it crystal clear how I feel about gun ownership, the
right to defend one's life and property, and the first and second amendments.
I draw the line at initiating force though. What I find dangerous and 
counterproductive is your repeated escalation and provocation of law
enforcement. Surely you knew by responding to the troll you'd be kicking
it up yet another notch. What's the point? Aren't you in enough of a balance
of terror already? I guess not.


>Please explain how my one paragraph summary of my weekend activities 
>provided "dangerous" people with knowledge they didn't already have.

The dangerous people I have in mind are all the pissed-off federal agents on
the "domestic terrorist" jihad who are circling the wagons and looking for more
rope to hang you with. I have no idea how much they knew about whatever you were
doing, but it was the first time I ever saw you speak as if you're getting
something in particular organized. That's the way it came across.

How much of all this boils down to the fact that you profoundly relish playing
high-stakes intimidation games and would love to be known far and wide as
a "force to be reckoned with"? Just a thought.


>Your "policeman inside" has been getting way too loud. Stop listening to 
>her or him.

Bah, I just believe in taking personal responsibility for my statements and
actions in a public forum. Show me where I ever said anything pro-censorship.
 

> Having moral courage is one thing, playing straight into the hands of people > who 
>wish you ill is quite another. It's none of my business what you do, but > I'll be 
>damned if I don't have the right to say I think you're making a 
> mistake by talking about it.
>>Your concern for me is touching, but it is inappropropriate. Some kind 
>>of chick thing, I guess.

Nah, just a common human feeling called sympathy.


>Butt out.

As you wish.


>Also, your comments were a lot more than concerns about me. You also 
>implied that my exercise of my fundamental rights of free speech, free 
>association, Second Amendment rights, etc. was somehow putting the list 
>and its members at risk.

No, just that due to your wee touch of megalomania, you didn't much
mind when the troll was characterizing the entire group as having something
rightfully to fear from the sedition laws because of support for encryption
itself. That's not right.


> If you'll look at the archives, we had this conversation a few months 
> ago.
> Nothing has changed.
>Why do you continue to waste our time, then? And since you have 
>repeatedly urged that I simply filter you out, I say, "Physician, heal 
>thyself."

What makes you think I want or need to filter you? 
 

>Meanwhile, I'll continue to talk about what I think is important.
>All of you who are calling for restraint, for self-labeling, for 
>installing new moderators...I suggest you either start a new mailing 
>list or set up a CDR node implementing your policies on restraint, 
>labeling, and niceness.

Please direct your rant to the appropriate person(s) or anyone remotely
connected to the above complaints. Thanks!

~Faustine.


***
The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms.
- --William O. Douglas, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGPsdk version 1.7

Re: Sedition

[Declan McCullagh]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 02:20:28PM -0500, Faustine wrote:
> It sure is. That's why I think (and have always openly said, here and
> everywhere) we need more pro-freedom policy analysts in Washington.

Of course, if you're a hardcore libertarian ("abolish all
unconstitutional federal agencies, and that's most of 'em! let's
revert back to the firearms laws we had 150 years ago!"), then you
don't get listened to.

Having more "pro freedom policy analysts" in Washington won't
accomplish much until other things change too.

-Declan

Congress moves swiftly to thwart terrorism, protect liberty

[Declan McCullagh]

U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on the Judiciary
F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., Chairman
___
www.house.gov/judiciary
News Advisory
For immediate 
release  Contact: 
Jeff Lungren/Terry Shawn
November 13, 
2001 
202-225-2492
Crime Subcommittee Hearing and Markup Wednesday on Terrorism-Related Bills

What:   Legislative hearing on: H.R. 3275, the "Implementation 
Legislation for the International Convention for the Suppression of 
Terrorist Bombings and the International Convention for the Suppression of 
the Financing of Terrorism," followed immediately by Markup of H.R. 3275 
and H.R. 3209, the "Anti-Hoax Terrorism Act of 2001."
Who:Subcommittee on Crime - Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Tex.), Chairman
When:   10:00 a.m., Wednesday, November 14, 2001
Where: 2237 Rayburn Building
H.R. 3275 is legislation implementing two international treaties cracking 
down on terrorism that have been signed by the United States and are 
expected to be ratified by the Senate in the very near future.
The International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings 
requires parties to the treaty to criminalize the act of terrorist bombing 
aimed at public or governmental facilities, or public transportation or 
infrastructure facilities and to either prosecute or extradite any person 
within their jurisdiction who engages in these bombings.  Violators would 
be subject to up to life in prison, and if death results from the 
violation, up to life in prison or the death penalty.
The International Convention for the Suppression of Financing of Terrorism 
requires nations to criminalize the act of collecting or providing funds 
with the intention that they will be used to support acts of international 
terrorists.  The Convention imposes binding legal obligations upon nations 
either to prosecute or extradite any person within their jurisdiction who 
unlawfully and willfully provides or collects funds with the intention that 
they should be used to carry out various terrorist activities.  H.R. 3275 
subjects violators to up to twenty years in prison and fines of at least 
$10,000.
Witnesses: Mr. Michael Chertoff, Assistant Attorney General, Criminal 
Division, U.S. Justice Department; others TBA.
H.R. 3209 would make it a felony for an individual who engages in a hoax 
with the intent to convey false or misleading information that there is or 
will be a chemical, biological, nuclear or weapon of mass destruction 
attack.  Violators would be subject to up to five years in prison and a 
fine of up to $250,000.
##30##
Terry A. Shawn
Press Secretary
  Committee on the Judiciary
U.S. House of Representatives
202-225-2492

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WTF is this ?

[Morlock Elloi]

Yes, code, but *which* code ?


http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&frame=right&rnum=21&thl=1466527157,1466527137,1466524266,1466521479,1466521461,1466417529,1466401140,1466382525,1466348789,1466289386,1466258668,1466241447&seekm=df083aa691350f7f52aeefd56659cbe0%40Leposternon.org

In case URL gets broken, here it is separated by newlines (combine into a
single string):

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&frame=right&rnum=21&thl=
1466527157,1466527137,1466524266,1466521479,1466521461,1466417529,
1466401140,1466382525,1466348789,1466289386,1466258668,1466241447&seekm=
df083aa691350f7f52aeefd56659cbe0%40Leposternon.org


=
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
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Yet More Cypherpunks Fiction (Animal Farm/Handmaid's Tale)

[Hans Acker]

>> Major Variola (ret)[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] writes:
>> 

Please tell me cdc.gov is *not* a open relay and that our resident 
microbiologist has 'doctored' his own machine. I don't think our 
nation can stand another CY53R-T3RR0R12T threat right now. ;-)

>> The inet-one.com archives show a Sircam offering which is just too
>> humorous to ignore, and which lne.com folks won't see:
>> a file called "animal farm novel report.doc.com"
>> (which is, of course, infected).  
>> 
>[...]
>
>Humor? I think it's sad. The sad thing, of course, is that 'Eleanor' does
>not recognize that Animal Farm is a person-by-person, event-by-event,
>allegorization of the Russian Revolution and ensuing events. Such is the
>state of modern education.
>
>Those who will not remember the past
>
>Peter Trei
>

 ".As I have said elsewhere, there was little that was 
 truly original with or indigenous to Gilead; its genius 
 was synthesis."

The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood portrays a 
religious-fundamentalist group seizing power in the 
USA through progressive acts of terrorism. 

Re-reading it for the umpteenth time, I was surprised 
at the similarities between the book and recent events. 
Like 1984, the book took current and past trends, and 
'carried them to their logical conclusions'.

>From now on, whenever I think about 'Jezebel's' I'll 
remember the grand finale of Animal Farm. 
Thanks SirCam! (No cavities!!!)


If you can't be kind about history, be vague.

--
Quote from "The Handmaid's Tale", by 'anonymous':

 "I guess that's how they were able to do it, in the way 
 they did, all at once, without anyone knowing beforehand. 
 If there had still been portable money it would have been 
 more difficult.

 It was after the catastrophe, when they shot the President 
 and machine-gunned the Congress and the army declared a 
 state of emergency. They blamed it on Islamic Fanatics, at 
 the time.

 Keep calm, they said on television. Everything is under 
 control.

 I was stunned. Everyone was, I know that. It was hard to 
 believe. The entire government, gone like that. How did 
 they get in, how did it happen?

 That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said 
 it would be temporary. There wasn't even any rioting in 
 the streets. People stayed home at night, watching 
 television, looking for some direction. There wasn't even 
 an enemy you could put your finger on.

 Look out, Moira said to me, over the phone. Here it comes.

 Here what comes? I said.

 You wait, she said. They've been building up to this. It's 
 you and me up against the wall, baby. She was quoting an 
 expression of my mother's, but she wasn't intending to be 
 funny.

 Things continued in a state of suspended animation for 
 weeks, although things did happen. Newspapers were 
 censored and some were closed down, for security reasons 
 they said. The roadblocks began to appear, and 
 Identipasses. Everyone approved of that, since it was 
 obvious you couldn't be too careful. They said new 
 elections would be held, but that it would take some time 
 to prepare for them. The thing to do, they said, was to 
 continue on as usual."



Excerpts from "Afghanistan and the United States: Two 
Early Twenty-First Century Monotheocracies, as Seen 
Through Diaries," by Prof. James Darcy Pieixoto, Director, 
Twentieth and Twenty-First Century Archives, Cambridge 
University, England: speaking June 25, 2195


 [The Sons of Jacob Think Tanks] were organized shortly 
 after the recognition of the superpower arms stalemate and 
 the signing of the classified Spheres of Influence Accord, 
 which left the superpowers free to deal, unhampered by 
 interference, with the growing number of rebellions within 
 their own empires.
 [..]

 It was [Judd] who suggested the use of an obscure "C.I.A." 
 pamphlet on the destabilization of foreign governments as 
 a strategic handbook for the Sons of Jacob, and he, too, who 
 drew up the early hit-lists of prominent "Americans" of 
 the time. He is also suspected of having orchestrated the 
 President's Day Massacre, which must have required maximum 
 infiltration of the security systems surrounding Congress, 
 and without which the Constitution could never have been 
 suspended. 
 [..]

 "Its racist policies [..] were firmly rooted in the pre-
 Gilead period, and racist fears provided some of the 
 emotional fuel that allowed the Gilead takeover to succeed 
 as well as it did.
 [..]

 To institute an effective totalitarian system or indeed 
 any system at all you must offer some benefits and 
 freedoms, at least to a privileged few, in return for 
 those you remove.
 [..] 

We now return you to your regular programming.


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go to the bottom of this message for an E Mail link.  Please do not 
respond to us by hitting the "Reply" button. Our phone number is also 
located at the bottom of this message.)

Job Master, a complete, user friendly Windows based software package, 
can manage and control your operation from sales quote to shipment.

Following is a list of features. If you have any questions, would like 
to discuss the package further, or if you would like to obtain our Web 
site address for a total walk through of the program, please call me 
directly at (661) 286-0041. 

By way of background, we are a software company, which for some years 
has specialized in the development of custom software, primarily for 
small to medium sized manufacturers.  Job Master is a distillation of 
over a million and a half dollars of software we have developed to 
control and manage the production of our manufacturing clients.

Job Master contains the following features:

1. QUOTATION MODULE.  In this module, quotes are developed, modified, 
and produced for sending to your client.  A history is kept of all 
quotes for future reference, or modification for other clients.  All 
quotations and revisions are "auto numbered," including versions.  The 
quotes section allows for the entry of parts/processes, and costing of 
each, including materials, labor, markup, and taxes.  Inventory status 
can be accessed from this section for reference.

2. SALES ORDER.  Once a quotation is accepted, the final quotation 
information can be transformed into a Sales Order for your client's 
signature on a "point and click" basis.  The Sales Order can be 
modified and re issued if necessary.  A history if kept of all Sales 
Orders for future reference, or modification for other clients.  All 
sales orders and revisions are "auto numbered," including versions.  
Inventory status can be accessed from this section for reference.

3. CUSTOMER LETTERS can be created from the Quotation and Sales Order 
sections.

4. SHOP TRAVELER/WORK ORDER.  Once a Sales Order is accepted, the sales 
order information can be transformed into a shop traveler/work order on 
a "point and click" basis.  Each item on the Sales Order becomes a shop 
traveler/work order, with each step of production of the item then 
listed on the traveler/work order.  Each such traveler/work order is 
tied back into the Sales Order.  The shop traveler/work order allows 
for the entry of line items, and notes on each line item. The shop 
traveler/work order contains a "notes" section.  The Shop traveler/work 
order allows for the storing or attachment of drawings to the 
traveler/work order.  The shop traveler/work order also contains a 
"drop down," from which standard processes can be selected for 
inclusion on the shop traveler/work order.  The shop traveler/work 
order numbers progress in order of production sequence, and re numbers 
them if new steps are added.  The shop traveler/work order allows for 
change orders or revisions, and numbers changes in sequence of the 
original shop traveler/work order number; i.e., 100, 100-1, 100-2, etc.  
All shop traveler/work orders and related revisions are retained in 
memory for future reference.  The shop traveler/work order is bar coded 
for tracking of production step by step, and production of ongoing 
client status reports.  Bar coding includes the ability for an employee 
to "swipe" their own ID bar code for recording in the system as to who 
upgraded what step.  The shop traveler/work order function also allows 
for manual update of production status.  The shop traveler/work order 
a

Re: Sedition

[Tim May]

On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 11:20 AM, Faustine wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Tim wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2001, at 08:42 PM, Faustine wrote:
>> Why talk about it though? The sheer satisfaction of imagining feds and
>> sheeple crapping their pants in fearful anticipation? Even if nothing
>> happened at all, you have to realize unsympathetic people who aren't 
>> in on
>> your peculiar brand of humor are going to take things like this at 
>> face value
>> and hold it against you. You risk getting slapped around with the anti-
>> paramilitary training statutes whether you're kidding or not.
>
>> I'm not kidding. I was there from Friday morning to last night.
>
> Fine. I dont know why you seem to be missing my point: being provoked 
> into
> incriminating yourself by an anonymous troll is an entirely different 
> issue
> from discussing the substance of whatever it is you happen to be doing.

No, _you_ miss the point: that I was not "incriminating" myself in any 
way.

You and your kind need to read up on Burroughs' "The Policeman Inside."

"If we do not censor ourselves, others will do it for us."

"Cypherpunks should voluntarily restrict the topics they discuss."

"We should impose voluntary self-labeling of all posts, so that Congress 
will not."

"I must not think certain thoughts, and I must report others who do."

>
> I just happen to have this gut-level common sense belief that if people 
> might
> be able to use something against any given person, it's 
> counterproductive and
> potentially dangerous to broadcast it the way you always do.

Ah, weapons training by me and my friends is somehow counterproductive 
and dangerous? The fact that the First and Second Amendments protect 
such activities is counterproductive and dangerous to you?

Please explain how my one paragraph summary of my weekend activities 
provided "dangerous" people with knowledge they didn't already have.

Your "policeman inside" has been getting way too loud. Stop listening to 
her or him.

> Having moral
> courage is one thing, playing straight into the hands of people who 
> wish you
> ill is quite another. It's none of my business what you do, but I'll be 
> damned
> if I don't have the right to say I think you're making a mistake by 
> talking
> about it.

Your concern for me is touching, but it is inappropropriate. Some kind 
of chick thing, I guess.

Butt out.

Also, your comments were a lot more than concerns about me. You also 
implied that my exercise of my fundamental rights of free speech, free 
association, Second Amendment rights, etc. was somehow putting the list 
and its members at risk.

>> As for "getting slapped around," I presume you plan to back this up 
>> with
>> something more than your "intuition"?
>
> It's not about intuition, just reading the news and putting two and two
> together. Everything I've seen about what's happening these days 
> indicates that
> law enforcement will be looking for any excuse they can find to crack 
> down on
> people they don't like. If they can keep people off planes for moronic 
> reasons
> like reading Hayduke and Harry Potter, what else are they going to do 
> with
> what's already on the books? It's probably just a bad case of 
> pantscrapping
> paranoia, but I still think it's better to think a few steps ahead.

>
> If you'll look at the archives, we had this conversation a few months 
> ago.
> Nothing has changed.
>

Why do you continue to waste our time, then? And since you have 
repeatedly urged that I simply filter you out, I say, "Physician, heal 
thyself."

Meanwhile, I'll continue to talk about what I think is important.

All of you who are calling for restraint, for self-labeling, for 
installing new moderators...I suggest you either start a new mailing 
list or set up a CDR node implementing your policies on restraint, 
labeling, and niceness.



--Tim May
"They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, 
and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually 
read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the 
vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the 
USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to imposed a police state

Re: InfoRequest

[InfoRequest]

Post fra midt-troms.net 
 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) pa* Wendsday, November 7, 2001 at 04:41:37
---

message: 
In addition to the information you selected, we thought you might be Interested in the 
latested 
FREE LEADS RESIDUAL INCOME OFFER.
 
One of our Sponsors has a Unique Home Business Lead Generation System and is offering 
Uniquely Qualified Leads to support a Residual Income Opportunity.
 
If interested in details, just respond here:  For more info 
Click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=MORE_INFO
(Please include name, phone, and email, and the best time you can be reached.)


Sincerely,


Click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=MORE_INFO



P.S.
On the given email you'll find a secret that every PRO
in our industry knows and uses...
It's called: S-L-L-G: Self Liquidating Lead Generation.
It will Create a Huge, Electrifying Surge in Your Cash Flow.

P.P.S.
Find out the NEW 3 foot rule in MLM. "Why Old School
MLM is nearly dead."

E N J O YO U RS U M M E R  P  R E   L A U N C H2 0 0 1


 
***
**If somehow your Form Submission is inaccurate; and you wish us to activate a filter 
to 
determine why you received this, then please email us here:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: InfoRequest

[InfoRequest]

Post fra midt-troms.net 
 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) pa* Wendsday, November 7, 2001 at 04:41:37
---

message: 
In addition to the information you selected, we thought you might be Interested in the 
latested 
FREE LEADS RESIDUAL INCOME OFFER.
 
One of our Sponsors has a Unique Home Business Lead Generation System and is offering 
Uniquely Qualified Leads to support a Residual Income Opportunity.
 
If interested in details, just respond here:  For more info 
Click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=MORE_INFO
(Please include name, phone, and email, and the best time you can be reached.)


Sincerely,


Click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=MORE_INFO



P.S.
On the given email you'll find a secret that every PRO
in our industry knows and uses...
It's called: S-L-L-G: Self Liquidating Lead Generation.
It will Create a Huge, Electrifying Surge in Your Cash Flow.

P.P.S.
Find out the NEW 3 foot rule in MLM. "Why Old School
MLM is nearly dead."

E N J O YO U RS U M M E R  P  R E   L A U N C H2 0 0 1


 
***
**If somehow your Form Submission is inaccurate; and you wish us to activate a filter 
to 
determine why you received this, then please email us here:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

re: Sedition

[Faustine]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Tim wrote:
On Monday, November 12, 2001, at 08:42 PM, Faustine wrote:
> Why talk about it though? The sheer satisfaction of imagining feds and 
> sheeple crapping their pants in fearful anticipation? Even if nothing
> happened at all, you have to realize unsympathetic people who aren't in on 
> your peculiar brand of humor are going to take things like this at face value 
> and hold it against you. You risk getting slapped around with the anti- 
> paramilitary training statutes whether you're kidding or not.

>I'm not kidding. I was there from Friday morning to last night.

Fine. I dont know why you seem to be missing my point: being provoked into
incriminating yourself by an anonymous troll is an entirely different issue
from discussing the substance of whatever it is you happen to be doing.

I just happen to have this gut-level common sense belief that if people might
be able to use something against any given person, it's counterproductive and 
potentially dangerous to broadcast it the way you always do. Having moral
courage is one thing, playing straight into the hands of people who wish you 
ill is quite another. It's none of my business what you do, but I'll be damned
if I don't have the right to say I think you're making a mistake by talking
about it.


>As for "getting slapped around," I presume you plan to back this up with 
>something more than your "intuition"?

It's not about intuition, just reading the news and putting two and two
together. Everything I've seen about what's happening these days indicates that
law enforcement will be looking for any excuse they can find to crack down on
people they don't like. If they can keep people off planes for moronic reasons 
like reading Hayduke and Harry Potter, what else are they going to do with 
what's already on the books? It's probably just a bad case of pantscrapping
paranoia, but I still think it's better to think a few steps ahead.


> (gratuitous ad hominem snipped)
> - From the "Allegiance to the US" section of the handbook on reasons 
> for denying
> clearance:
> Gee, I haven't sought "clearance."

If you'll look at the archives, we had this conversation a few months ago.
Nothing has changed. 

(snip)

>Unconstitutional nonsense.

It sure is. That's why I think (and have always openly said, here and
everywhere) we need more pro-freedom policy analysts in Washington. I've never
misrepresented myself or what I think here, even when it goes against what
passes for the conventional wisdom around here. 
 

>So, Agent Faustine, report me.

"Agent Faustine?" Are you totally out of your skull on crack? Use your reason:
if I were with the FBI I never would have bothered. What a slap in the face. Do
you always make false accusations to get out of an argument? 


>I wish I'd had your report to distribute to the group on Friday night. 
>Adding your name to the checklist of enemies would have been useful, 

Unreal.


>but at the time I didn't think you were quite as much of an enemy as the 
>obvious names.

Whatever warped interpretation you may have of me, I'm not your enemy. 
I'll bet whoever started this thread is laughing his head off about now.



~Faustine. 



***

The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms.
- --William O. Douglas, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court

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