Link between Masons and NSA revealed!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61372-2001Nov20.html
Link between Masons and NSA revealed!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61372-2001Nov20.html
Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2...
--- begin forwarded text Status: U Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:44:04 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Rohit Khare [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2... Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Id: Friends of Rohit Khare fork.xent.com Executive Summary: I am near my limit of anger with the random, neutral FAA passenger profiling algorithm. I have every reason to believe some programmer has coded some strictures into it which would truly offend American civil society if translated from mathematics back into the ugly politics from whence it came. Soon after my last installment, I had to turn back around and fly out of Denver. They made me X-ray my *shoes*... This time, the problem was *too much* time on their hands. The second story is how I missed the last flight back home on Thanksgiving eve because the security supervisor wouldn't show up to process me at the gate in time. That snowballed into a series of Catch-22 situations trying to find a lost pair of glasses along the way. First, Denver. A tip on avoiding the Disneyland-like lines at the two main X-ray posts -- even though, strictly speaking, that's an insult to Disneyland, since even they've instituted a take-a-number pass system for the most popular rides. Rather than take the train to one of the outlying concourses, ignore the main signage and *walk* to Terminal A over a bridge on the ticketing level. That's the X-ray post to Continental, British, etc. Much less popular, even though many a savvy traveler knew that was the way around United's silly carryon sizer templates (Contintental's machines don't use them). Then take the train to wherever you really need to get to. A co-worker and I arrived at DIA together, and I was able to purchase a new ticket, and even with the foolishness of fellow business travelers in stocking-feet waiting for their shoes back, I caught up with him in the same train car... he spent the entire time in United lines. Now, for the real outrage. Today, I was warned about massive Thanksgiving delays at Sea-Tac, so I cut short a beer with a buddy in Bellevue to race back two and a half hours in advance. I returned the car, picked up a boarding pass from a pliant robot kiosk, and got through security in a wink. Two hours in advance... no problem, right? Well, I was a selectee, presumably since it was a one-way ticket. So I sat through yet another embarassing tearing-apart of my bags, and this time they found a pocket screwdriver. A promotional pen-style screwdriver that I've had for ten years (it's a NeXT repair shop :-) 1. They think you are not allowed to board with a three-inch, 1/8-inch wide screwdriver. 2. You are not allowed to ask the aircrew to hold it for you on the flight. 3. You are not allowed to leave the selectee table until a GSC supervisor comes to look it over. At this point, there's twenty minutes left tick-tock... now, the flight is almost completely boarded. You're still waiting. And now you suddenly realize you've lost your $400 prescription sunglasses. 4. You keep all your metal -- everything -- in your jacket at all times, so that you can x-ray a jacket rather than begin to empty out pockets. Your sunglasses have fallen out at some checkpoint. At this point, you start tracing back your steps. It's 7 minutes or so to push-back. 5. If you leave the selectee table, you will have to be searched all over again when you return to the gate 6. They do not have walkie-talkies to ask security if your glasses were stuck in the X-ray tunnel 7. See #3: You are not allowed to leave at all until the mythical GSC arrives. Finally, a GSC arrives. Two minutes or so to departure, you haven't been given any chance to run down and solve the mystery. 8. The screwdriver must be confiscated or bags must be checked. 9. Just because you have been flying with it all week means nothing. We're supposed to randomly change what the FAA is looking for every day. Parse that, if you dare! 10. Any carry-on bag may be gate-checked *except* those containing forbidden carry-on items. Catch-22 #1. So now you're finally free to run back to the X-ray post and miss your flight. 11. With about fifteen uniformed personnel of various stripes (National Guard, Argenbright, Alaska, and United), none of the first half-dozen people you ask claims to know about lost articles. 12. Before you can find a supervisor, the GSC has wandered back to warn them you are carrying a screwdriver. 13. So at this point, instead of any sympathy for a harried traveler asking for a supervisor, it's time for a lecture about having committed two federal crimes, bringing a forbidden item into a screening area, lying about it to a ticket agent, two fines at $11,000 each -- which they take the pompous time to warn you adds up to a potential total fine of $22,000 since you're not paying enough attention to the supercillious bastard who won't admit to knowing who to ask about lost
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Re: Link between Masons and NSA revealed!
On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 05:24 AM, Peter Wayner wrote: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61372-2001Nov20.html Thanks! That's a very detailed and well-written article. I was just skimming through a new book on the Masons; mostly I read about the period when cathedrals and castles were being built in Europe and the Masons operated as a union. --Tim May A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship. --Alexander Fraser Tyler
Slashdot | McAfee Will Ignore FBI Spyware
http://slashdot.org/yro/01/11/24/2324241.shtml -- -- Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2...
MY only question in regards to this topic are these: How many members of this mailing list have been selected for search? How many of these are NOT registered republicans or democrats? While I was selected (both going and returning to Ca) I talked to people at the table, none of them were dems or repubs (I was registered libertarian, one guy was green and another libertarian). Is there algorithm really What are they registered to vote? Max Inux
Re: Ridiculous Airline Security Story N+1 and N+2...
At 10:08 AM 11/25/01 -0800, Max Inux wrote: MY only question in regards to this topic are these: How many members of this mailing list have been selected for search? How many of these are NOT registered republicans or democrats? You need to know more to answer your doubts. You need to know background rates. FWIW I'm a registered lib and fly out of an airport with a bronze sculpture of John Wayne monthly; I've not felt singled out. While I was selected (both going and returning to Ca) I talked to people at the table, none of them were dems or repubs (I was registered libertarian, one guy was green and another libertarian). Is there algorithm really What are they registered to vote? Certain flights are going to have certain demographics -are you on a biz shuttle w/ dot-commers to SF or a grandma kids flight to Disneyland? What fraction of citizens are registered as Demopublicans anyway? I'm not belittling your questions or claims but I'm pointing out you have to look at how much others are hassled too. I've seen upper crust whitehaired women get hassled more than hirsuit me because I have the fractional clue to remove metal from my person, and don't wear steel-toed boots. Or earrings, chains, rings, belt buckles, etc. From what I gather, their pre-boarding 'random' checks are *quality control* on their regular magnetometer/screening points.
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Remove -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jim Choate Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The Village Voice: Features: Assault on Liberty: Abandoning the Constitution to Military Tribunals by Nat Hentoff http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/hentoff.php -- -- Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
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Re: Anonymizing Scam
Nomen makes a reasonable point. There is nothing objectionable about Lance selling anonymizer.com accounts to the Feds (or with a crypto-company selling crypto-ware to the Feds, not least since they'll get the software or service one way or another). If you treat 'em the same way you treat any other paying company, and I suspect that is the case with Lance, John's allegation of sucking up to espionage and law enforcement agencies is uncalled for. -Declan On Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:10:08PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: John Young writes: Below are strange statements coming from Lance Cottrell. Is there no anonymizer that is not sucking up to the TLAs? Worse, has there ever been? Are you implying that Lance Cottrell is making anonymous surfing data available to security agencies? That is a strong accusation and if you want to make it, you should do so explicitly. You are calling him a liar and a fraud. Nothing in the article you quote gives you any foundation for such a claim. All it says is that agencies are using Anonymizer to browse anonymously, just like its other customers. Any crypto technology, if it is truly useful, can be used by government agencies as well as others. One might as well accuse you of conspiracy since cryptome often serves TLAs: You fraud! You are saving people's access patterns to your files and making them available to the police! How dare you! These accusations are as unfounded as those you made against Lance. Those who make such claims should provide evidence and not innuendo. http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/11/20/privacy.reut/index.html One company that is still making money off privacy is Anonymizer.com, a San Diego-based company that offers anonymous Web surfing for $50 a year, or $5 a month. The company has 20,000 active subscribers, said President Lance Cottrell. We're still seeing very strong growth, Cottrell said. Most people are looking to prevent their boss, insurance company, spouse, ISP (Internet Service Provider) from knowing where they're going. Even so, Anonymizer.com began a push six months ago to market its service to corporations, including law and investigation firms, and the U.S. government, he said. Intelligence agencies have been using us for years, especially since September 11, Cottrell said. They use us to keep an eye on bad guy sites with covert monitoring. - The pattern: initial big deal about helping the public protect its privacy, then boom, a later revelation it was impossible to continue ... well, the reasons vary, but the cover story is always the need for money, the Judas rationale. Meanwhile, the fabulous surfing data archive allegedly inviolate, or never retained, or no way to ever know who was using the service, that is the data all free-gift marketers aim to collect. Were any anonymizing archives ever trashed or truly protected against concurrent snarfing? Is Safeweb laughing like ZKS, like Lance? First, the US, then EU, then CN, all the way to MD. What does this say about commercial anonymizing services, and remailers? And crypto, especially free PGP, and the honeypot AES?
Re: HDCP break and DMCA
What makes you, Incognito, believe the DMCA may criminalize the publication of a scientific paper? What makes you believe that Niels Ferguson's worry was not hyperbole, or a PR stunt designed to garner press? What makes you think that a scientific paper would generate even civil liability? The DMCA may be a terrible law, sure, but let's keep criticisms grounded in reality. The relevant section of the DMCA is only a few pages long; let's hear how this could apply to scientists. -Declan (Note Dmitry has been indicted because he and his company were selling software to circumvent copy protection.) On Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 03:50:49AM -0600, Incognito Innominatus wrote: Congratulations to Ian Goldberg, David Wagner and other cryptographers for publishing a break of the HDCP standard for encrypting video data. This was intended to be used between HDTV decoders and displays, for example, to allow digital communication between them in encrypted form so that it could not be captured and shared. The paper by Crosby et al at http://nunce.org/hdcp/hdcp111901.htm is a thorough break of the system, which unfortunately is not fielded yet so you can't use the exploit to steal HDTV. The big question is what about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which potentially criminalizes such research? We heard a great deal this past summer about what a threat the DMCA was to legitimate cryptographic research, and about how the exemptions in the DMCA weren't worth the paper they were printed on. One cryptographer, Niels Ferguson, refused to publish his break for fear of prosecution under the DMCA, http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46091,00.html. It would be interesting to hear the perspective of any of the researchers involved as to whether they are concerned about the DMCA. Do they view themselves as creating a possible test case? Or are they simply going to ignore the DMCA and go about their lives, doing their work on the assumption that such a bad law will ultimately not hold up in court?
Re: HDCP break and DMCA
Declan opines: (Note Dmitry has been indicted because he and his company were selling software to circumvent copy protection.) Had they given the software away for free, or published code for the crack, they might have actually done some damage to copyright holders. Instead, they charged enough money for it to raise the height of the bar above casual and frivolous use. Why this is viewed as an aggrevating circumstance by the DCMA, as opposed to a mitigating one, is anyones guess. Why don't people copy paperback books? Because it is cheaper to buy them. Not because the paperback book copyright police threaten you with life in prison. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
Re: Bell Trial Transcripts
On Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 08:22:55PM -0800, John Young wrote: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-jdb-dt.htm Ah, thanks for buying these and placing them online. Kept meaning to buy the transcript of my own testimony, but that never made its way off the to-do list. Finally, I got to read Declan's testimony and he deserves a prize if what he said is true. I think you'll find that, like most people, journalists are not in the habit of lying under oath. -Declan
Re: CDR: CP archive problem?
According to the registry, their record was modified yesterday (24 November). In addition, I am unable to reach either of their authoritative name servers - their upstream may in fact be off the air completely. With the recent change in their record, it is possible they made changes to their dns server addresses, and the new addressed were botched in the process (something I went through several weeks ago - it appears to be quite difficult to get the new registrars to properly move dns hosts). I guess the next step would be email to their admins, and possibly a NANOG request... On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Steve Schear wrote: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:23:30 -0800 From: Steve Schear [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CDR: CP archive problem? I've been trying to access http://www.inet-one.com for two days and have getting DNS errors. Anyone else on @home with the same trouble? Might be a good time to switch to alternate root servers. steve -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place...
Re: CP archive problem?
At 1:23 PM -0800 on 11/25/01, Steve Schear wrote: I've been trying to access http://www.inet-one.com for two days and have getting DNS errors. Anyone else on @home with the same trouble? Might be a good time to switch to alternate root servers. I haven't been able to hit it for a week now. It's why I signed up to the list again... Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
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Re: HDCP break and DMCA
on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 01:23:42PM -0800, Tim May ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 01:09 PM, Eric Cordian wrote: Why don't people copy paperback books? Because it is cheaper to buy them. Not because the paperback book copyright police threaten you with life in prison. Why don't people copy hardback books? Answer: they do! Go to any large copying center near a university and look for professor packs or HistCon 101 Course Materials consisting of copied material out of various textbooks, hard and soft. The deal is that the student takes the professor pack over to a copy machine and runs off a copy of each of the, for example, 400 pages. The student pays $20 or so and saves himself having to buy 10 books to read one or two chapters or sections out of each. The students are happy, the copy shop is happy, the professor is happy, and only the publishers and authors are unhappy. First: this is somewhat orthogonal: - Only a portion of the book is being copied. This makes the reproduction cost significantly different from the sale cost of the authorized book. - Materials from many sources are being assimilated, raising total costs; and the holding period for the materials is generally short (the duration of a quarter or semester). Production-quality bindings and archive-quality paper aren't required. Second: where exactly is this occuring? You seem to indicate smaller shops. I worked at Kinko's during the period 1989 - 1992, largely serving UC Davis. This was during the period Kinko's was involved in a large copyright infringement suit (Basic Books v. Kinko's, ultimately lost by Kinko's to the tune of US$1.3m) over the issue of Professor Publishing, the coursepack preparation service. As Tim indicated, this was a core of Kinko's business model from the company's founding in Santa Barbara in the early 1970s. Kinko's, at least, of major copy centers, has significantly revised its processes, both securing copyright clearance on more (most?) of the materials, and deemphasizing the role of Professor Publishing within Kinko's. At the time I left the company, there was a strong awareness for all employees about making unauthorized copies (and you'll occasionally hear stories about people who're denied service to copy materials they own), at least when this is done behind the counter. What customers did in the self-serve area was largely unregulated. This was very common here in Santa Cruz, as recently as several years ago when I was doing a lot of copying of my own papers. Care to name any of the shops at which this was occuring? Kinko's, AlphaGraphics (are they still around?), and other high-profile repro shops tend to have fairly strong policies regarding unauthorized copying. The same tends to extend to copy centers run by colleges and universities. Smaller, privately held shops tend to play faster and looser. There were signs up about not violating copyright law, but these professor packs were in clear violation. (Yeah, someone may say Maybe the professors made an arrangement with the publishers and authors. I give this a vanishingly small chance of being the case in more than 2% of all such course materials packs.) In the case of Kinko's, the covered materials were most if not all in my experience, with a sheet listing clearances added to packs by the time I'd left. There's also the Copyright Clearance Center (CCC: http://www.copyright.com/), formed in the 1970s, which has played a significant role in recent photocopy copyright infringement claims as, as its existence has removed any excuse for unauthorized copying (Paul Goldstein, _Copyright's Highway_, Hill Wang, 1994). Peace. Tim May excepted. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of Gestalt don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Moving beyond Reputation--the Market View of Reality
For many years some of us have argued strongly for reputation as a core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the phrase reputation capital. Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless work. I won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us. But there are many aspects of reputation which lead to problems: 1. The assumption that an agent or actor possesses a reputation. A kind of scalar number attached to a person, a bank, an institution, or even a nym. 2. When in fact different people have different assessments of some agent's reputation. Thus suggesting strongly that reputation is not something attached as simply as above. 3. All of the nonsense about how Alice's reputation has been harmed, deriving from the faulty notion of this scalar property attached to Alice. Aren't we stuck with reputation? No, a broader ontology of objects and beliefs about them is a better way to go. The reputation of the dollar is related to my belief, and the belief of billions of others around the planet, that for whatever reason a piece of paper with the right markings on it will in fact be accepted by billions of others, by millions of small banks and moneychangers, and even by the U.S. Government. And the related belief that loans, IOUs, promissory notes, bonds, and numerous other instruments denominated in these dollars will very likely be accepted or exchanged, blah blah, by millions or billions of other actors. Such is not the case with Monopoly money or even with E-gold. Thus, what is the reputation of the dollar? Is it because of foolproof anti-forgery measures? Is it because of the laws of the U.S.? Etc.? No, it is a kind of collective hallucination. Before James Donald freaks out and cites Objectivist arguments that Some Things Are Real, etc., let me point out that collective hallucination is mostly a cute phrase. In actuality, our perception of reality is more than just an opium dream. Empiricism, falsifiability, Popper, all that good stuff. But our monetary system is vastly less provably real than the world of atoms and stars is. Because money is fundamentally about bets on the future: will something be exchanged for something else, will governments support what they print, what will the dollar be worth in 5 years, etc. All crypto is economics. All money is based on belief. All a matter of betting, of risk/benefit analysis. Related concepts, of course. Even slightly flawed protocols still work, given the right embeddings in other systems. (For example, a common flaw cited with remailers is that if there is not enough cover traffic, traceability still exists. But exactly the same flaw exists with money: try getting untraceability with coins if only a few coins exist. Ditto for bearer bonds. Ditto for lots of things where the protocol fails for small N but works reasonably well--in the betting sense--when a lot of actors are trading a lot of coins and currency. The value of a monetary token is NOT something that is determined by precise mathematical protocols. It's a value based on _belief_ or _expectation_ about the behaviors of other actors, and about the future. Currency suspected of being counterfeit may sell for 10 cents on the dollar, to a sophisticated buyer, while currency suspected of being legit may or may not sell for at or near face value. (Even perfectly legit currency would sell at a discount in large quanties, probably, because a buyer would be a money launderer. Hence the discount for risk. That is, a market decision based on the obvious tradeoffs.) Back to reputations. Seen as part of a larger ecology of a market construction of reality, there are no fixed or absolute values, no fixed or absolute truths. Some assertions are many nines likely to be true, and some are even constructed to be true (*) (* As in 2 + 2 = 4, though the streetwise person who says What's the trick? is realizing that even known to be true assertions may not be true, as in base 3. Magicians and con men have known this for a long time.) Thus, there is no fixed reputation of either a person, an idea, or a unit of value. Everything is a matter of belief, of expectation... Instead of an ontology of objects and their attached methods and property lists, including reputations and monetary values, we should be thinking in terms of these objects as just other actors, with each actor maintaining his own internal model of possible worlds (how he thinks the other actors will behave, what he thinks may be future outcomes, what his own goals and expectations are). Seen this way, there is no reputation or value that is universal. Everything is relative. Everything is seen through the light of internal states/possible worlds. This is the market view of reality. There is no Reality. Just ensembles of actors, various facets, incomplete
Re: The Crypto Winter
On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 08:56 PM, scum wrote: Atheists who claim to be anti-theism are either (a) not atheists, or (b) mis-understand what theism is. If we spend a quality minute in the real world, one or two things of what capitalism is and what anarchism is not will be evident. life without government vs. Texaco Would you like to attempt to make a meaningful argument out of that? Is this the result of you not knowing english well, or are you a bloody idiot? -- Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. Plato (427-347 B.C.)
Re: Moving beyond Reputation--the Market View of Reality
On Sun, Nov 25, at 03:05PM, Tim May wrote | Thus, what is the reputation of the dollar? Is it because of foolproof | anti-forgery measures? Is it because of the laws of the U.S.? Etc.? | | No, it is a kind of collective hallucination. It is not a Collective hallucination unless you take into account the fact that the dollar (substittute your local fiat currency here) is nothing more than a piece of paper issued by the US government with no guarantees whatsoever of its redeemability at any given point in time. | All crypto is economics. All money is based on belief. All a matter of | betting, of risk/benefit analysis. Related concepts, of course. Money isn't so much a belief as it is a medium of exchange. I do agree that it is the de facto medium of exchange because of the belief that people put into the fact that they will be able to exchange it for other things later on, but I believe that is actually besides the point depending on how you refer to money. Money as was the case 150 years ago was not really a betting idea. Money was gold, gold was money and gold was not only money, it was also a tangible item in and of itself. Perhaps during the times of 100% gold backed currency (I mean the Rothbard idea of banks being nothing more than warehouses) there was belief system somewhere, but even then, money was actually gold substitute, the dollar meant nothing more than a certain quantity of gold. Perhaps in todays world you are right in the idea that money is nothing more than a hallucination, I agree with that statement even. But I would venture into saying that the world we live in today is a hystorical exception, in no other time than in the last hundred (ok, hundred and one, almost two) was money represented in such meaningless terms as it is now, with nothing to back it up. (even gold was never backed up by anything other than belief in its tradeability, but then gold is useful and valued for others uses than trading. What use is a dollar bill? Perhaps the Swiss Franc has artistic value, but if you're not cold and in dire need of something to burn for warmth, todays money is for all intents and purposes useles.) | Back to reputations. | Thus, there is no fixed reputation of either a person, an idea, or a | unit of value. Everything is a matter of belief, of expectation... There is nothing fixed in this world, if you have no boundries set. If everything is a belief or expectation, I would have to say that some beliefs and some expectations are stronger than others...some by orders of magnatude. | Digital money is just one facet of this worldview. I would still say that the reputation problem is one of the greatest of the problems facing digital money, govenments aside. Perhaps the problem should be referred to as bad PR instead. (Digital money needs a better marketting department.) No offense intended, but other than a few points in the email, I failed to miss the punchline. --Gabe -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
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Re: Moving beyond Reputation--the Market View of Reality
There is nothing fixed in this world, if you have no boundries set. If everything is a belief or expectation, I would have to say that some beliefs and some expectations are stronger than others...some by orders of magnatude. Are you saying that governments are providing a valuable service by propping up arbitrary prohibitions and thus establish a value system against which we can bang our heads ? = end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
Re: Moving beyond Reputation--the Market View of Reality
On Sun, Nov 25, at 05:24PM, Morlock Elloi wrote: | Are you saying that governments are providing a valuable service by propping up | arbitrary prohibitions and thus establish a value system against which we can | bang our heads ? If you got that out of the quote you left in the email I am lost ;-p But as a general rule, no. Keeping in mind of course that value is subjective, because arbitrary regulations are in fact very valuable, ask the Kennedys. The problem with prohibitions (which are never arbitrary) is that they make for an uneven playing field in the great game of The free Market thus hurting the whole, but often there are those (few though they may be) who profit from prohibitions. --Gabe -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
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Re: CDR: Re: HDCP break and DMCA
Tim May wrote: Answer: they do! Go to any large copying center near a university and look for professor packs or HistCon 101 Course Materials consisting of copied material out of various textbooks, hard and soft. The deal is that the student takes the professor pack over to a copy machine and runs off a copy of each of the, for example, 400 pages. The student pays $20 or so and saves himself having to buy 10 books to read one or two chapters or sections out of each. The students are happy, the copy shop is happy, the professor is happy, and only the publishers and authors are unhappy. This was very common here in Santa Cruz, as recently as several years ago when I was doing a lot of copying of my own papers. There were signs up about not violating copyright law, but these professor packs were in clear violation. Really? Sounds to me like they fall under Fair Use. That provision specifically exempts copying for research or education. Marc de Piolenc
RE: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks
Greg wrote: That's very warm and fuzzy and hippy-like, but if these tokens are handed out for free, then what, exactly, is their value? I think the Extropians did something like that, which ended in some sort of fiasco which some cypherpunks were involved in, though I don't know the details and was never a participant in that list/social circle. I am unfamiliar with the Extropian electronic token experiment, but I as the first person on the planet to have conducted an Ecash-to-fiat currency transaction, I can assure you that somebody out there may well be willing to pay real cash for freely minted tokens. (I was on the Ecash selling side. The USD 35 for which I sold my Ecash beta tokens are still in my filing cabinet). --Lucky
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Re: Moving beyond Reputation--the Market View of Reality
At 03:05 PM 11/25/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: For many years some of us have argued strongly for reputation as a core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the phrase reputation capital. I recently posted how ground squirrels have rep cap. Reputation is an easily understandable concept which explains a lot about how imperfect protocols in the real world nevertheless work. I won't go into what reputation is, even as defined by folks like us. It seemed to be something like hits false alarm (and probably misses and correct rejections) counts for squirrels. The same info is of use to neurons. Various computer learning algorithms too. An efficient use of persistant state, one would expect. 1. The assumption that an agent or actor possesses a reputation. A kind of scalar number attached to a person, a bank, an institution, or even a nym. Two kinds of entities: one maintains reputations, the other doesn't. Guess which is exploited to extinction? ... Again CPunks -or other analysts- are not *advocating* nearly as much as some might like to believe; instead IMHO there is a public discussion going on about essentially inevitable trends we've observed.
Re: Moving beyond Reputation--the Market View of Reality
On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 07:30 PM, David Honig wrote: At 03:05 PM 11/25/01 -0800, Tim May wrote: For many years some of us have argued strongly for reputation as a core concept. Someone, perhaps even one of our own, even coined the phrase reputation capital. I recently posted how ground squirrels have rep cap. I read that. I thought a better description was the more traditional one: squirrels can learn. Again CPunks -or other analysts- are not *advocating* nearly as much as some might like to believe; instead IMHO there is a public discussion going on about essentially inevitable trends we've observed. I have no problem being characterized as an advocate. But I also agree that many of the media frenzies are about things most clueful people knew were nearly inevitable. (Just today there was discussion on CNN about how technical papers on cloning may need to be restricted. More forbidden knowledge. Cf. discussions in 1992 on medical information data havens. In the words of the Big Brother fan we heard from recently, The government should certainly follow and monitor anyone who buys books on cloning.) --Tim May The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the government to rein in people's rights. --President William J. Clinton
Re: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks
On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 07:05 PM, Lucky Green wrote: Greg wrote: That's very warm and fuzzy and hippy-like, but if these tokens are handed out for free, then what, exactly, is their value? I think the Extropians did something like that, which ended in some sort of fiasco which some cypherpunks were involved in, though I don't know the details and was never a participant in that list/social circle. I am unfamiliar with the Extropian electronic token experiment, but I as the first person on the planet to have conducted an Ecash-to-fiat currency transaction, I can assure you that somebody out there may well be willing to pay real cash for freely minted tokens. (I was on the Ecash selling side. The USD 35 for which I sold my Ecash beta tokens are still in my filing cabinet). I believe Greg may have been referring to a reputation market experiment, circa 1993. Each list subscriber was given some number of tokens and then a market in reputations was declared. People could buy and sell shares in the reputations of anyone, including themselves. The thought was that prices would go up on those reputations people thought the price would go up on. Issues of the real reputation were secondary issues (i.e., if people thought someone was a turkey, they probably wouldn't expect his rep to go up, despite the artificial nature of the market). I think the guy who wrote the market software was living in Salt Lake City at the time, but I could be misremembering. I don't remember his name, and my archives from back then are in a jumble. One thing that was interesting was the opportunity to manipulate the market. I offered to buy tokens from others, for cash. One person sold me all of his tokens for the agreed-upon price of $20. I sent him the money and he mailed his tokens to me. I then proceeded to use my extra wealth to bid up the value of my own reputation. The tokens were not cryptographically-strong forms of digital cash, but they worked for the intended purpose. (That is, no one tried to forge them, at least not successfully.) --Tim May The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able may have a gun. --Patrick Henry The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed. --Alexander Hamilton
Re: HDCP break and DMCA
On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 06:51 PM, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote: Tim May wrote: There were signs up about not violating copyright law, but these professor packs were in clear violation. Really? Sounds to me like they fall under Fair Use. That provision specifically exempts copying for research or education. I strongly doubt this. Fair use is not about setting up alternate publishing schemes, but is about quoting relevant sections, collecting material for research purposes, etc. If it were as broad as you claim, why would _any_ school buy textbooks for its students when it could make a photocopy for a fraction of the cost? Schools could simply digitize textbooks once and then distribute them on CD-ROM. I'm not a copyright expert, but I strongly doubt what you say above. --Tim May That government is best which governs not at all. --Henry David Thoreau
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RE: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier
[Redundant/inappropriate lists elided]. The page at Amazon. COM claims that the book in question will ship in December of this year. I seem to recall having read announcements in years past that the book would ship in the respective years. Methinks that a mere claim of a future ship date in 2001 may be considered insufficient proof that the condition of the wager has been met by at least one of the parties to the wager. Just my $0.02, --Lucky, who will order the book once it ships. Which unfortunately has yet to come to pass. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of R. A. Hettinga Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; e$@vmeng.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Digital Bearer Settlement List Subject: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier --- begin forwarded text Status: U Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:45:04 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Matthew Gaylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Order Now: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Note from Matt: I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be available to order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known Cypherpunk. And I won. Acct# 101893.] At 3:03 AM -0700 8/13/01, Well known Cypherpunk wrote: Subject: Re: BTW- I'll bet you... OK - Done deal, if you'll accept the modification that it be orderable and shippable by Amazon or other on-line bookstore within a week after that. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312862075/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/ 103-1236763-4454202 True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier by Vernor Vinge, James Frenkel (Editor) List Price: $14.95 Our Price: $11.96 You Save: $2.99 (20%) This item will be published in December 2001. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. See larger photo This item qualifies for free shipping on orders over $99! Click for details Great Buy Buy True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Fron... with The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge today! Total List Price: $42.90 Buy Together Today: $31.52 You Save: $11.38 Paperback - 384 pages (December 2001) Tor Books; ISBN: 0312862075 Amazon.com Sales Rank: 28,271 ** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ** --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier
I'm supposed to get a review copy mailed Monday. We'll see. -Declan On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 09:59:24PM -0800, Lucky Green wrote: [Redundant/inappropriate lists elided]. The page at Amazon. COM claims that the book in question will ship in December of this year. I seem to recall having read announcements in years past that the book would ship in the respective years. Methinks that a mere claim of a future ship date in 2001 may be considered insufficient proof that the condition of the wager has been met by at least one of the parties to the wager. Just my $0.02, --Lucky, who will order the book once it ships. Which unfortunately has yet to come to pass. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of R. A. Hettinga Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; e$@vmeng.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Digital Bearer Settlement List Subject: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier --- begin forwarded text Status: U Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:45:04 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Matthew Gaylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Order Now: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Note from Matt: I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be available to order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known Cypherpunk. And I won. Acct# 101893.] At 3:03 AM -0700 8/13/01, Well known Cypherpunk wrote: Subject: Re: BTW- I'll bet you... OK - Done deal, if you'll accept the modification that it be orderable and shippable by Amazon or other on-line bookstore within a week after that. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312862075/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/ 103-1236763-4454202 True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier by Vernor Vinge, James Frenkel (Editor) List Price: $14.95 Our Price: $11.96 You Save: $2.99 (20%) This item will be published in December 2001. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. See larger photo This item qualifies for free shipping on orders over $99! Click for details Great Buy Buy True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Fron... with The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge today! Total List Price: $42.90 Buy Together Today: $31.52 You Save: $11.38 Paperback - 384 pages (December 2001) Tor Books; ISBN: 0312862075 Amazon.com Sales Rank: 28,271 ** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ** --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
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