Re: Which universe are we in?

[Tim May]

On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 07:43  PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:

> Dear Tim,
>
> Are you tacitly assuming some kind of communication between 
> observers
> when you make the claim of a "convergence"? Adsent said communications,
> could we show that the convergence would still obtain? Have you ever 
> seen
> any discussion of the notion of cyclic or periodic gossiping in Comp 
> Sci?
>
>

No, I was arguing that while the future may be multi-worlded, everything 
we know about science (evidence, archaeology, measurements, ...) points 
to a _single_ past.

For example, a single past world line for me, for you, for Hal, for 
Chaucer, for Einstein.

Now we may not know what this world line is very accurately, but as we 
look at more closely, e.g., by examining the photographs someone may 
have taken, or their diaries, or whatever, the more we home in on what 
that world line was. We never look closely and see two or three or N 
different histories, we just see a higher fidelity view of what we must 
assume is the One True Past.

I don't doubt that Hal gets the sense that many potential Hals could 
have resulted in the current Hal...an interesting notion. But everything 
does in fact point to a One True Past which various measurements get 
closer and closer to, and which no measurements contradict.

This is what I meant by "convergence." Homing in, getting closer, 
sharpening the image, filling in the details.

As for "tacitly assuming some kind of communication between observers," 
I am _explicitly_ saying that observers get together and compare 
notes...and they find no contradictions, if they are honest observers.

Hal may have meant something different, perhaps.


--Tim May

--Tim May
(.sig for Everything list background)
Corralitos, CA. Born in 1951. Retired from Intel in 1986.
Current main interest: category and topos theory, math, quantum reality, 
cosmology.
Background: physics, Intel, crypto, Cypherpunks

you just cant fulfill me

[Maire Lira]

 A man endowed with a 7-8" hammer is simply
 better equipped than a man with a 5-6"hammer. 
Would you rather havemore than enough to get the job done or fall short. It's totally upto you. Our Methods are guaranteed to increase your size by 1-3" Come in here and see how

Re: DRM will not be legislated

[Mike Rosing]

On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Voluntary DRM can never stop piracy.  With voluntary DRM, people
> can break once on one machine, then run the latest Napster
> replacement on the every machine on the internet in non DRM mode,
> and copy that file that was ripped on one machine, to every
> machine.

Obviously.  But if the "content" is on a private net hooked into
private boxes, putting the data onto the public web becomes a touch
more difficult.

> Voluntary DRM is only useful to the content industry as a stepping
> stone to compulsory DRM

Only in some executive's wet dream.  And they've got enough problems
dealing with their accounting division right now :-)

> Voluntary DRM is only useful to the industry to reach the point
> where they can say "Only copyright pirates, terrorists, drug
> trafficers, child pornographers, tax evaders, and money launderers
> need to run their machines in non DRM mode."

And if they can't deliver enough product to make DRM worth while, they
never get that far do they.  If the economics works, they don't need laws,
and if the economics don't work, they won't get laws. When the big boys
figure out how to deliver their stuff with better quality and more
"coolness" than P2P, they'll make plenty of money.

Shit, we might even convince them it's worth while running fiber to every
home on the planet.  If they don't, they're toast anyway.  Teenagers can
wait all day and night for a few songs, but the rest of us don't have time
to waste on it.  With enough bandwidth, DRM becomes irrelevant.  The
recorded past isn't where the cash is, the instantaneous *now* is where
the money gets collected.

Someday they'll figure it out, but I suspect it'll be a teenager that hits
'em over the head with the 2x4.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike

Pictausch??

[nicolescholiz1]

Nachricht von Tina weitergeleitet von uns:

Unser Funchat ist wieder online kannste ja
mal reinschauen ich bin auch immer drin.

ok bis später

deine TINA

Re: CP meet at H2K2?

[netkita]

I would  be  interested  in  a  hookup on  Saturday  or  Friday night.I
will  arrive  on  Wenseday  if  anyone  wants  to  get  together.

- Original Message -
From: "Bill Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Greg Newby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: CP meet at H2K2?


>
> Several people said yes...
> You're hereby designated as the
>  "Official San Francisco Bay Area Cpunks-Meeting-in-Exile" :-)
>
> At 07:07 PM 06/20/2002 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> >H2K2, 2600's conference, is at Hotel Penn in New York
> >July 12-14.  http://www.h2k2.net
> >
> >CP contributors who are scheduled include
> >John Young and yours truly.  Maybe others I
> >didn't recognize or see yet.  I heard of a few other
> >tentatives.
> >
> >The full conference schedule should be online within
> >the next couple of days.  I'm thinking of a CP
> >meet Saturday night July 12.  Anyone else gonna be there?
> >   -- Greg

Re: CP meet at H2K2?

[netkita]

When  and  where  is the  CP  meeting  at the  Hotel please.

- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Greg Newby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: CP meet at H2K2?


> 
> Several people said yes...
> You're hereby designated as the
>  "Official San Francisco Bay Area Cpunks-Meeting-in-Exile" :-)
> 
> At 07:07 PM 06/20/2002 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> >H2K2, 2600's conference, is at Hotel Penn in New York
> >July 12-14.  http://www.h2k2.net
> >
> >CP contributors who are scheduled include
> >John Young and yours truly.  Maybe others I
> >didn't recognize or see yet.  I heard of a few other
> >tentatives.
> >
> >The full conference schedule should be online within
> >the next couple of days.  I'm thinking of a CP
> >meet Saturday night July 12.  Anyone else gonna be there?
> >   -- Greg

Re: DRM will not be legislated

[jamesd]

--
On 9 Jul 2002 at 1:01, Anonymous wrote:
> If DRM hardware and software are widely available, they reason, 
> it will be that much easier to get legislation passed to make 
> them mandatory. []
>
> This argument makes superficial sense, but it ultimately 
> contradicts itself on one major point: if DRM is so successful 
> and widely used as would be necessary for its mandate to be 
> low-cost, then there is no need to require it!

Voluntary DRM can never stop piracy.  With voluntary DRM, people 
can break once on one machine, then run the latest Napster 
replacement on the every machine on the internet in non DRM mode, 
and copy that file that was ripped on one machine, to every 
machine.

Voluntary DRM is only useful to the content industry as a stepping 
stone to compulsory DRM

Voluntary DRM is only useful to the industry to reach the point 
where they can say "Only copyright pirates, terrorists, drug
trafficers, child pornographers, tax evaders, and money launderers
need to run their machines in non DRM mode." 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 7lDwxyaNMRyW/fnz+MbZtTkvvLQYa1vgZGkK9sHP
 2Efd0J6T+9nNeRMcg3Djz42yiJGtYagAGVb1mkkkE

Re: Artists

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 4:49 PM -0400 on 7/8/02, Mark Burns wrote:


> Hopefully this 'what-if' world has anti-trust deregulation going hand in
> hand with the removal of copyright protection.


Nah. All we need is encryption and a cash-settled digital market. Studios
would do just fine, maybe better.

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: DRM will not be legislated

[Tim May]

On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 04:01  PM, Anonymous wrote:
> be available.  A substantial number of consumers will voluntarily adopt
> DRM if it lets them have a Napster-style system of music on demand,
> with wide variety and convenient downloads, as long as the songs are not
> too expensive.

I doubt it. Napster was popular because people like FREE STUFF!

There were services in Tower Records as long ago as 10 years ago, and 
repeated efforts since, which allowed a patron to pick a set of songs 
and have them recorded onto a customized CD. Cost was comparable to a 
CD. They all failed.

People who were heavy users of Napster, collecting thousands of songs 
(or more), will not be too interested in a system which charges them a 
50 cents or a dollar per song.

And casual users just won't bother.

I expect something like this will happen, but it doesn't significantly 
alter the main issue.

Oh, and it little or nothing to do with DRM circuitry. Most of those who 
download songs will be doing so to put on to their MP3 players, their 
iPods, their own CD-Rs. While the latest Pentium 5 and Opteron machines 
may or may not have DRM circuitry, it's likely that the very target 
market for downloaded music will be using older machines for many years 
to come.


--Tim May
"The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the 
expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat

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Re: movie distribution post copyright (Re: Artists)

[jamesd]

--
Obviously, the end of copyright may well mean a substantial
reduction in the proceeds from big movies, but it will hardly mean
a total end to those proceeds (the powerpuff girl movie is one big
toy advertisment)

How big an effect will a reduction in money mean?

If you go back thirty years, you will notice that lots of movies
were produced on a budget vastly smaller than todays movies.  For
example I noticed a Hitchcock movie where a car and a car wreck
was central to the plot, and most of the story line took place
inside a wrecked car..  However, Hitchcock by use of cheesy camera
angles, avoided any need for the car to suffer any actual damage,
or even the need to go out and buy a wreck.

Go back even further, and people do not bother with production
values at all.   Thus Macbeth says "why upon this blasted heath
you stop our way with such prophetic greeting?", presumably
because Shakespeare was too cheap to have a backdrop painted
depicting a blasted heath.

So the end of copyright will not mean the end of movies, but
merely cheaper effects, and since computers are making effects
cheaper daily, with imaginary landscapes made inside a computer,
and real landscapes massively altered, we probably will not notice
any effect at all.   The landscapes of Lord of the Rings, though
based on real landscapes, were modified beyond recognition in the
computer.

 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 6hvbNtYka8u1qIMniMnCaWBDwMDIldO12gOEblNx
 2Olw67ehBaVGbRFS34c7PmLktRCUKrLNbZub4oTFg

DRM will not be legislated

[Anonymous]

Several people have suggested that DRM software is not bad in and
of itself.  So long as it is used voluntarily, it is not infringing
on anyone's freedom.  In fact they will even agree that voluntary DRM
can be a good thing; it increases people's options and can provide a
mechanism where content producers can get paid.

However they oppose DRM anyway, even voluntary DRM.  The reason is because
they see it as the first step towards mandated DRM.  If DRM hardware
and software are widely available, they reason, it will be that much
easier to get legislation passed to make them mandatory.  Most people will
already have systems which comply with the laws, so there will be no great
costs involved in requiring the systems.  In contrast, if no one had DRM
hardware and software installed, then mandating it would be politically
impossible, requiring virtually every computer in use to be junked or at
least to go through an expensive upgrade.  The costs of such a transition
would be enormous, and legislation to mandate DRM would never succeed.

This argument makes superficial sense, but it ultimately contradicts
itself on one major point: if DRM is so successful and widely used as
would be necessary for its mandate to be low-cost, then there is no
need to require it!  Opponents of the legislation need only point out
that consumers are voluntarily adopting the technology and that the
marketplace is working to solve the problem for the record labels and
other content companies.

In fact, there is very little incentive to push for mandating DRM features
on the part of any of the participants in the dispute: content companies
or technology companies.  What they really need to do is to make DRM
become popular as the only way to have a variety of good, legal content
be available.  A substantial number of consumers will voluntarily adopt
DRM if it lets them have a Napster-style system of music on demand,
with wide variety and convenient downloads, as long as the songs are not
too expensive.  The advantages of having a legal system that is immune
to the woes of the P2P world (constant shutdowns of popular systems due
to lawsuits, the problem of bogus data, etc.) will amply justify a modest
fee for the download.

It seems clear that this is the direction the record labels want to
pursue, and the only problem is that right now, if they make downloads
available without DRM restrictions, they will go right into the pirate
networks.  With DRM they have more control over how the data is used,
there will be less piracy, and therefore they can charge less per song.

Legislating the DRM is of no value in this scenario, because people
will still be able to use P2P and other software for piracy, whether
they have software that can support DRM or not.  (We will neglect the
plainly absurd argument that the computational infrastructure of the
entire nation will be changed so that only "authorized" or "approved"
software can run.)  The record labels still must pursuade people that
DRM is worth having, and the way they will do so is by making their data
available at a reasonable price, while continuing their technological and
legal attacks on P2P networks.  Legislating DRM will not substantially
help with any of these subgoals.

The one exception where legislation might be helpful would be for "closing
the analog hole", requirements to detect watermarked data and not process
it.  If all systems could be designed so that they recognized watermarks
in music and video and refused to play them, then that would cut down
on piracy.  But this is not DRM per se, it is really an orthogonal
technology.  One can oppose efforts to legislatively close the analog
hole while still supporting voluntary use of DRM software and hardware.

Ultimately, DRM must succeed as a value proposition for the end user.
Legislation to require DRM-observant software and hardware in all
computers will not establish this value.  By itself, such legislation
will not stop piracy and file sharing.  The only way to stop file sharing
is with massively intrusive legislation that would practically shut
down the net and most businesses as well.  Such a course is impossible
outside of the raving fantasies of the paranoid.  Given the reality of
ongoing file sharing, DRM must succeed by offering good value and the
guarantees of high quality that are not available in a black market.

Legislation of DRM is not in the cards, and this remote, hypothetical
possibility should not stop us from supporting voluntary DRM systems.

Re: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)

[Sampo Syreeni]

On Thu, 4 Jul 2002, Ian Grigg wrote:

>See also the work of Eric Hughes, John Walker, the AMIX, Robin Hanson
>and others.

Believe me, they're all known to me and properly appreciated.

>Well, the problem is that you are asking too much of one OS.  If you
>want stability, use FreeBSD (we do). If you want security, check out
>OpenBSD. If you want portability, try NetBSD.

But that's precisely my point. If you want to serve an interest which is
widely spread, with little willingness to pay on behalf of each of a
couple of million beneficiaries, you will have a public goods problem. One
way to arrive at such a problem is to demand everything of a single
system. But at the same time there are a number of monolithic problems
which achieve the same by themselves. That's what I was talking about.

>Mind you, it is getting a whole lot better! [...] We've had a lot of
>success with open source.

Of course. We might argue that has to do with the dependency of a gift
economy on income effects feedback which gives a good deal of nice
outcomes when people are nevertheless getting richer. Somewhat pointedly
the question becomes, could Open Source keep up the rise in income by
itself? Is it a productive part of the entire economy or a parasite on
existing forms of welfare creation?

>We had to write Cryptix, that was a business requirement as we needed
>crypto in Java (and Perl) and nobody had done it before. But, once done,
>I didn't want to pay to keep it going. So we open sourced it. We got
>the support and the updates for free, mostly, thereafter.

Again, my point in a nutshell. When a problem is grave enough to warrant
an investment on behalf of a single developer, that single developer
*will* develop the software and, at the very least in the absence of
copyrights, face a very low price on open sourcing the code. But there's
still the kind of software which gives some tens of millions of people a
per capita benefit of, say, $1 a year while requiring a clear, centralized
development effort with considerable cost. Cryptix hardly lies in that
category, even while extremely useful to a number of people.

>But, when it comes down to it, their model failed, because they were
>seduced into the apparent gold mine of PKI...

Aye. PKI is a tarpit. You get into it, but only rarely do you find someone
who cashed out on it. In this case it isn't the market that fails,
though...

>There are other benefits to the open source model: most of the people
>who've volunteered have boosted their CVs and picked up good work
>because of it.

Nobody's putting open source down, here. Far from it. My point was an
economic one, having little to do with those forms of software development
which obviously work. It wasn't even meant to advocate a particular
approach to financing the production of goods infected by the problem.
Instead it was a simple reminder of the limitations of the commonly
accepted image of free market, purely bilateral trade attaining efficiency
in a general sense, without any regard for transaction cost analysis.

Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tel:+358-50-5756111
student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
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Re: movie distribution post copyright (Re: Artists)

[mean-green]

>At 10:20 PM 7/8/2002 +0100, Adam Back wrote:
>But right now copies of recent release movies (post screen release,
but pre DVD/VHS relase) are not generally available in high quality
format, suitable for projecting.

As you note later, most recent releases to the Net are often lower quality 'cams' shot 
with consumer quality camcorders.  But not all.  A number of individuals or groups 
have managed to consistantly create and distribute VHS or better releases.  While not 
DVD in quality on smaller screens (say below 27-inches) they are more than adequate, 
sometimes better than the average quality of analog cable reception.  See 
www.vcdquality.com for recent releases and quality ratings.

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movie distribution post copyright (Re: Artists)

[Adam Back]

But right now copies of recent release movies (post screen release,
but pre DVD/VHS relase) are not generally available in high quality
format, suitable for projecting.

So one way that the movie distribution industry could plausibly
continue to make money would be rather than the movie theatre being
subject to copyright laws forbidding them from copying and further
distributing, they would be under a private contract not to do that.

Actually I'm not sure what they're doing now -- it would seem likely
that both private contract and copyright are used -- the movie
distributors may easily want to impose more restrictions than those
directly imposed by default copyright.

Post copyright, with private contract only, the movie theatre would
have an interest to comply with the contract due to the penalties
agreed to in the contract, which might include fines, escrowed monies,
or no access to further releases.

The movie industry has so far been succesful from what I've seen in
preventing DVD quality copies being distributed prior to DVD release.
Publicly distributed copies of pre-DVD release movies are "Screeners"
obtained with a CAM corder in the theatre.  Early releases
(unauthorised distribution shortly before general public release) come
from journalists or their guests making screeners from the pre-release
screenings offered to journalists.

The advent of digital projection which doesn't have much deployment at
theatres yet may alter this equation as perhaps it would then become
easier for an insider (a theatre projectionist for example) to convert
the content into MPEG4/DIVX format and retain good quality.

Adam

On Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:45:31PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> There's a flaw in this argument:
> 
> [...]
> 
> People would go to theaters to see the film in all of its glory, true.
> 
> But the theaters would no longer, in your scenario, have to fork over 
> money to the studios.
> 
> (Unless you are positing some situation where anybody may download any 
> film, but then not display it to others. Or that theaters would face 
> special regulation by government, etc.)
> 
> In any case, I know a _lot_ of people who watch most of their films on 
> cable or satellite or DVD. And cable/DVD sell through is an important 
> part of studio revenues. An end to copyright would have a _significant_ 
> effect on revenue.
> 
> Note that I'm not endorsing copyright as it now stands, just disputing 
> your point that ending download restrictions would have no effect on 
> studio profits.

Re: Artists

[Mark Burns]

Tim May:
> People would go to theaters to see the film in all of its glory, true.
>
> But the theaters would no longer, in your scenario, have to fork over
> money to the studios.
>
> (Or that theaters would face special regulation by government, etc.)

Hopefully this 'what-if' world has anti-trust deregulation going hand in
hand with the removal of copyright protection.

At one time, many theatres were owned by the studios and showed the movies
that studio published.

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Re: Artists

[Tim May]

There's a flaw in this argument:

On Monday, July 8, 2002, at 11:10  AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Let us imagine that all efforts to enforce copyright on the
> internet were abandoned, and that everyone in the world has a fat
> pipe capable of downloading movies.
>
> First, most people who want to see lord of the rings want to see
> it a theatre.  The scene in the mines of Moria, the backgrounder
> on the origin of the ring, the dark riders crossing the river, are
> all written for the big screen, and are worthless on a small
> screen.
>
> Secondly, most people who want to see lord of the rings do it as a
> pilgrimage, so they do it when it first comes out, and they take a
> date, or go with a bunch of friends.  It is positively
> sacriligious to see it on a small screen, or to see it without
> making a special occasion of it.  After all this is not just
> another Buffy episode.
>
> Thus fat pipes and an end to internet copyright would have had no
> significant effect on the profits from the Lord of the Rings.


People would go to theaters to see the film in all of its glory, true.

But the theaters would no longer, in your scenario, have to fork over 
money to the studios.

(Unless you are positing some situation where anybody may download any 
film, but then not display it to others. Or that theaters would face 
special regulation by government, etc.)

In any case, I know a _lot_ of people who watch most of their films on 
cable or satellite or DVD. And cable/DVD sell through is an important 
part of studio revenues. An end to copyright would have a _significant_ 
effect on revenue.

Note that I'm not endorsing copyright as it now stands, just disputing 
your point that ending download restrictions would have no effect on 
studio profits.

--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"

Re: Why we must stay silent no longer

[jamesd]

--
On 8 Jul 2002 at 7:43, Anonymous wrote:
> The death of democracy is at hand.
>
> http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/hertz.htm

If only it were true.
--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
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"Send details, G4M, Code May-2"

 In about 1HR, you'll get our fast reply
on how to sign 

RE: Artists

[jamesd]

--
On 8 Jul 2002 at 11:25, Trei, Peter wrote:
> Some forms of creation require little in the way of up-front 
> investment. Others do. Consider movies. While some of the people 
> involved get to do creative work that they love, many don't, and
> they all have to make a living somehow. Would the Key Grip, the
> Focus Puller, or the Greensmen be willing to do their work for
> the sheer creativity of it all? I don't think so. The principle
> shooting for the LOTR trilogy took over 18 months, in New
> Zealand. Do you think they did it (just) for love?
>
> Art forms which require large prior investments need some form
> of remuneration beyond egoboo. Otherwise, they just won't 
> happen.

Let us imagine that all efforts to enforce copyright on the
internet were abandoned, and that everyone in the world has a fat
pipe capable of downloading movies.

First, most people who want to see lord of the rings want to see
it a theatre.  The scene in the mines of Moria, the backgrounder
on the origin of the ring, the dark riders crossing the river, are
all written for the big screen, and are worthless on a small
screen.

Secondly, most people who want to see lord of the rings do it as a
pilgrimage, so they do it when it first comes out, and they take a
date, or go with a bunch of friends.  It is positively
sacriligious to see it on a small screen, or to see it without
making a special occasion of it.  After all this is not just
another Buffy episode.

Thus fat pipes and an end to internet copyright would have had no
significant effect on the profits from the Lord of the Rings. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
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D

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Re: Smart ID Cards Planned for Sailors to Spot Terrorists

[R. A. Hettinga]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At 1:22 PM -0700 on 7/7/02, John Young seems a little irony-impaired
today:


> Bob "Open Mike" Hettinga  kariokaed:
>
>>I try not to post "news" to cypherpunks. :-). I post *lots* of news
>>to the dbs list, of course...
>>
>>To prevent spamming DCSB is subscriber only, as are all my own
>>lists.
> Rolling in the phsst-shot EVA, shitting my spacesuit, wailing for
> yo  momma's impaired irony: gameboy, that's not a joystick.
>
My Younglish parser is a bit rusty, but methinks the gentleman doth
defecate too much.

I seem to remember someone who boosted his own karma rating around
here for a while by posting full NYT articles to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Young stopped. I did too.

Of course, it took a nastygram from NYT's lawyers to stop him. And,
since the NYT doesn't read cypherpunks anymore, :-), it took a
surprisingly polite request from Mr. May to (more or less :-)) stop
me a few years back. I believe he actually said "please", and
included no threat of physical force, which was, frankly, shocking,
given our relationship at the time. So, I continued to send stuff to
e$pam, which we folded, and DCSB, which got the same reaction as
cypherpunks so I quit there, and, later, dbs, which doesn't matter
because I own the list. Oddly enough, dbs' subscribership has
stabilized and gone up a smidge since, which is nice. I also send
crypto-relevant bits to cryptography, which Perry moderates, sending
along what he thinks the readership wants to see, which might be what
John's mewling about above.


Of course, I haven't checked my killfile, but I bet Choate still
persists in posting un-contexted links here, which are, for the most
part much more annoying, though considerably more parsimonious of
bandwidth.

It must be all that hard groundwater in Texas causing extreme
hard-headness in character. In Young's and my case, it got diluted by
all that acid rain up here in the NE, and we eventually learned to
listen to reason, if not threats of impecuniosity and/or bodily harm.

For Choate, of course, who's still drinking the stuff, there's
apparently no hope.

Anyway, John, for old time's sake, a little Spanglish aphorism is in
order: "Y tu mama tambien, Cabron".

Cheers,
RAH


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 7.5

iQA/AwUBPSm9r8PxH8jf3ohaEQL/GgCg9G1Vr130geUAVn3BrqD8Vp1QykgAniJ8
OuY/1rqCI4BzWEwGgVusKowt
=E4kl
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

RE: Closed source more secure than open source

[Trei, Peter]

> Bill Stewart[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> At 06:31 PM 07/06/2002 -0700, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> >First, closed source testing, beginning in the late Alpha testing stage,
> is
> >generally done without any assistance from source code, by _anyone_, this
> >significantly hampers the testing.
> 
[...]


One factor which has been ignored so far is reputation 
effect the two regimes have on the programmer, and
the implications of that on how he writes.

In virtually every Open Source project I've seen, the code 
is signed. Not cryptographically -  the identity of the creator 
is known to anyone who chooses to look at the code.

If they know that there is a distinct possibility that a large number
of critical, intelligent, strangers are going to be looking over their
code, most programmers will make an extra effort to write well,
by the metrics their peers value. Thus, not only will the code work,
but it will be better commented, cleaner, and clearer. This leads
to fewer weak spots. You can't sweep dirt under the rug if there 
is no rug.

In an ideal world, of course, closed source programmers would
do the same, but human nature being what it is, they often don't.

With signed Open Source, every line of code becomes part of
an engineers reputation, part of the way they are judged by 
peers and potential employers. 

Peter Trei

Re: TPM cost constraint [was: RE: Revenge of the WAVEoid]

[Eric Murray]

On Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:13:54AM -0700, Optimizzin Al-gorithym wrote:
> At 07:05 PM 7/6/02 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:,>
> Adding the cost of an EMBASSY or SEE environment to the,>purchase of
> every new PC is more than the market for bare-bones or even,>mid-range
> PC's will bear.,>,>--Lucky,>
> 
> Too bad PCMCIA cardreaders aren't widespread, then a bank could give
> away smartcards
> which would be arguably more secure than browserware.

Smartcards are more secure than browsers.  But normal cardreaders
don't keep malware that's on the PC from accssing the card.  It can snoop
on the user's PIN, or in the case of the few cardreaders that keep the PIN
local, wait for the card to be unlocked and then use it for illegitimate
purposes.  The smartcard still depends on the security of the PC.
It's not any more secure than the PC, its just portable.  That hasn't
been enough to make smartcards take off for PC-based applications.

A few companies have made secure smartcard readers that prevent this
type of attack.  One of those was N*able Technologies, which Wave bought
in '99.  The current EMBASSY chip is one that N*Able designed.  I was
Nable's chief architect.  I left after the buyout.  Nable's system was
for secure commerce, not DRM, but as a secure building block it can be
used for lots of things.

I don't know WAVE's pricing for the current EMBASSY chip, but based on
prices for earlier Nable chips, I'd guess that they could sell it for
$5-10 in quantity.  That's still a significant adder to the cost of a
motherboard.   But it isn't insurmountable.   The beneficiary pays for it,
not the end user.  All it takes is one customer who can get enough value
from it to make it worthwhile.  Microsoft is a good example... simply
increasing their license payment rate for Word from 50% of users to 60%
would make them more than enough $$ to cover the cost of an EMBASSY or
similar in most PCs.  The potential anti-competitive side effects then
come for free.

Of course marketing for PCs will attempt to get users to pay more
for the "security enhanced" DRM-equipped PCs.  But the added cost
doesn't need to be paid by the users to make it viable.

Eric

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RE: Artists

[Trei, Peter]

> Marcel Popescu[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> Regarding our recent thread on copyrights and artists who won't create
> anymore if they're not getting paid, has anyone ever played with the
> WinAmp
> plug-ins? Some of them are amazingly beautiful.
> 
> Now, are they upset that people copy them? On the contrary - some of them
> are accused of creating bogus accounts to boost the reputation of their
> plug-ins, or lower that of their best competitors. So much for "we won't
> create if we aren't paid" - and, again, I'm not talking Britney Spears or
> Picasso here, I'm talking beauty.
> 
> Mark
> 
True, but I'll bet almost anything that none of the plugins were written
by corporations expecting to get a return on their investment.

Some forms of creation require little in the way of up-front investment.
Others do. Consider movies. While some of the people involved get
to do creative work that they love, many don't, and they all have
to make a living somehow. Would the Key Grip, the Focus
Puller, or the Greensmen be willing to do their work for the sheer 
creativity of it all? I don't think so. The principle shooting for the
LOTR trilogy took over 18 months, in New Zealand. Do you think
they did it (just) for love?

Art forms which require large prior investments need some
form of remuneration beyond egoboo. Otherwise, they just won't
happen.

Peter Trei

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Virus  : HTML/IFrame_Exploit*
Virus  : Win32/Klez.H@mm


Original headers:

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Mon Jul  8 07:08:44 2002
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>Subject: CDR: Here to find out more!
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Virus discarded

[Mailer Daemon]

We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a
virus according to Reliable Antivirus (RAV) v8.3.1 available from
http://www.ravantivirus.com/

This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has
been discarded.  For information on removing viruses from your
computer, please see http://www.google.com/search?q=antivirus or
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   Postmaster


Sender : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Recipient  : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Here to find out more!
Virus  : HTML/IFrame_Exploit*
Virus  : Win32/Klez.H@mm


Original headers:

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Mon Jul  8 07:07:48 2002
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>From: shirley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Old-Subject: CDR: Here to find out more!
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Subject: Here to find out more!

(±¤°í) ºñ±³ÇÒ¼ö·Ï ´õ¿í °¡Ä¡ÀÖ´Â Å°Æù - ¸Æ½ºÅÚ Å°Æù ½Ã½ºÅÛ

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Title: »ó»ó ±×ÀÌ»óÀÇ ³î¶ó¿ò-¸Æ½ºÅÚ Å°Æù ½Ã½ºÅÛ




  

  
 
  

  
  

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Executable discarded

[Mailer Daemon]

We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a
virus according to Reliable Antivirus (RAV) v8.3.1 available from
http://www.ravantivirus.com/

This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has
been discarded.  For information on removing viruses from your
computer, please see http://www.google.com/search?q=antivirus or
http://hotbot.lycos.com/?query=antivirus

   Postmaster


Sender : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Recipient  : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CDR: Parent.sites
Virus  : HTML/IFrame_Exploit*
Virus  : Win32/Klez.H@mm


Original headers:

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Mon Jul  8 04:19:57 2002
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>Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 16:03:55 +0800 (SGT)
>Date-warning: Date header was inserted by ipop3.tm.net.my
>From: mcsavs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: CDR: Parent.sites
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>MIME-version: 1.0
>Content-type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="Boundary_(ID_WlF8OR8lg561t5j34MY7Kw)"
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>X-Loop: ssz.com
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We received a message claiming to be from you which contained an
executable attachment (batch file, script, program, etc).  In
order to protect users from malicious programs, we do not accept
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file to it's intended recipient, you must send it in an archived
and/or compressed format.

Your email has been sent to the intended recipient without this
file included.  A message detailing why it was dropped has been
substitued in it's place.

   Postmaster


Sender : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Recipient  : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CDR: Parent.sites
Mime type  : audio/x-midi
File name  : Wk.pif

Executable discarded

[Mailer Daemon]

We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a
virus according to Reliable Antivirus (RAV) v8.3.1 available from
http://www.ravantivirus.com/

This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has
been discarded.  For information on removing viruses from your
computer, please see http://www.google.com/search?q=antivirus or
http://hotbot.lycos.com/?query=antivirus

   Postmaster


Sender : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Recipient  : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Parent.sites
Virus  : HTML/IFrame_Exploit*
Virus  : Win32/Klez.H@mm


Original headers:

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Mon Jul  8 04:20:24 2002
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 16:04:20 +0800 (SGT)
>Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 16:03:55 +0800 (SGT)
>Date-warning: Date header was inserted by ipop3.tm.net.my
>From: mcsavs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Old-Subject: CDR: Parent.sites
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>MIME-version: 1.0
>Content-type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="Boundary_(ID_WlF8OR8lg561t5j34MY7Kw)"
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>X-List-Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>X-Loop: ssz.com
>X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
>Subject: Parent.sites

We received a message claiming to be from you which contained an
executable attachment (batch file, script, program, etc).  In
order to protect users from malicious programs, we do not accept
these file types thru this mail server.  If you need to send the
file to it's intended recipient, you must send it in an archived
and/or compressed format.

Your email has been sent to the intended recipient without this
file included.  A message detailing why it was dropped has been
substitued in it's place.

   Postmaster


Sender : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Recipient  : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Parent.sites
Mime type  : audio/x-midi
File name  : Wk.pif