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Re: False statement: "Since cypherpunks no longer code"

[Eugen Leitl]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Tim May wrote:

> (I have no idea why Extropy and Transhumantech are being copied on this 
> message (<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, extropy 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>). Since I know they will bounce my reply, as I 
> am not subscribed to their lists, I will delete them from the 
> distribution.)

Your reply has been forwarded fully.
 
> This is a false statement. A cheap shot, in fact. I will stack the code 
> written by attendees of the recent CP meetings against your code, 
> Eugene, any day. (No offense, Eugene,  but I despise these 
> "fashionable" cheap shots which miss the mark so...cheaply.)

I was basing my statement solely on basis of what has come across this
list. Since you cited current and important work which has not been
visible to list participants I fully retract my statement, and apologize 
for the cheap shot.

(I would code if I could. Not everybody can be a good programmer, 
strangely enough).

Re: FC: Privacy villain of the week: DARPA's gait surveillance tech (fwd)

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 8:38 PM +0100 on 10/27/02, Eugen Leitl wrote:


> The only way to defeat advanced biometrics is to not be physically present
> or to use anonymized telepresence devices.

Oddly enough, your behavior on the net, even the behavior of a given
signature in cypherspace, is biometric, as well.

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

RE: What is the truth of the anti war rallys?

[Lucky Green]

James wrote:
> Supposedly tens of thousands turned up, forty two thousand in 
> San Francisco
> 
> Yet oddly, the photos of marches that I see look more like 
> forty in San Francisco, and four hundred in Washington.
> 
> Perhaps there were a lot more out of frame, but that is an odd 
> way to photograph a demonstration.
> 
> Does anyone know the truth from his own eyes, or a more 
> complete set of images?

I can't speak to the peace marches this time around we are in war with
Oceania, but last time when Bush senior attacked Iraq a peace march of
at least a thousand people went right past my apartment in San
Francisco.

--Lucky

False statement: "Since cypherpunks no longer code"

[Tim May]

(I have no idea why Extropy and Transhumantech are being copied on this 
message (<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, extropy 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>). Since I know they will bounce my reply, as I 
am not subscribed to their lists, I will delete them from the 
distribution.)


On Sunday, October 27, 2002, at 02:20  PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
Political decisions could kill the demand driving development. Cheapest
way for the fringe is to inform and develop countermeasures. Since
cypherpunks no longer code, spreading information should have priority.


This is a false statement. A cheap shot, in fact. I will stack the code 
written by attendees of the recent CP meetings against your code, 
Eugene, any day. (No offense, Eugene,  but I despise these 
"fashionable" cheap shots which miss the mark so...cheaply.)

At the last Cypherpunks meeting, which happened to be at my house, we 
saw excellent examples of coding on several important fronts: BitStorm, 
Software-Defined Radio, the new release of PGP, and Mixmaster. Major 
new examples of coding on all three main fronts: crypto, remailers, 
peer-to-peer, and the recent addition of SDR, which promises to blow 
the roof off of attempts by governments to ban listening at certain 
frequencies.

I realize it has become fashionable in this post-fin-de-siecle era of 
ennui to jabber about how boring things have become, but people are 
still coding. Granted, there are fewer "new and surprising" apps, but 
this is completely to be expected. We had a very good idea of the 
classes of apps as long ago as 1990, and the first half of the 1990s 
saw several very good realizations of most of them.

CodeCon, earlier this year, was a smashing success.

--Tim May


--Tim May
"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone
 with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later
 convinces himself." -- David Friedman 

Details on lne.com's blocking of Cypherpunks posts??

[Tim May]

On Sunday, October 27, 2002, at 01:04  PM, Bill Stewart wrote:


[Hmm.  lne.com spam-blocked me on the first attempt.


Can you provide details?

If lne.com is blocking posts, I will have to find another CP node.


--Tim May

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What is the truth of the anti war rallys?

[James A. Donald]

--
Supposedly tens of thousands turned up, forty two thousand in 
San Francisco

Yet oddly, the photos of marches that I see look more like 
forty in San Francisco, and four hundred in Washington.

Perhaps there were a lot more out of frame, but that is an odd 
way to photograph a demonstration.

Does anyone know the truth from his own eyes, or a more 
complete set of images?  At least some newspapers are reporting 
"hundreds" or four hundred in Washington, while others are 
reporting eighty thousand, an number curiously different from 
four hundred.  However it seems that all papers are reporting 
forty two thousand in San Francisco.

The inconsistency in the reports from Washington incline me to 
doubt the reports from San Francisco, but of course there is a 
plentiful supply of liars on both sides of the fence. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
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Re: FC: Privacy villain of the week: DARPA's gait surveillance tech

[Morlock Elloi]

> There are potential medical uses of this sort of technology -
> enough computer abusers and other desk-job workers with bad backs
> or similar health problems that could benefit from analyzing how they walk,
> but obviously Darpa's not going to find that.  Perhaps we can get

There are expensive, complicated computer-controlled contraptions that attach
to the body, analyze walk, forces that you exert, and tell you exactly which of
40-50 muscles engaged in the walk need tuning. They can also *make* you walk
"right", by limiting/forcing movements. Since people do manage to correct the
gait with them, I see no reason that gait can be modified, lond-term, in any
desireable direction. 

That is, unless these devices become a controlled technology.

Do-it-yourself emergency gait scramblers include thumbtacks in both shoes
(amazingly how quickly the body learns how to avoid the pain) and anal inserts
that require active squeezing to remain in place. 


=
end
(of original message)

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Re: FC: Privacy villain of the week: DARPA's gait surveillance tech (fwd)

[Eugen Leitl]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Sigh.  If people are going to beat up on BrinWorld, at least they
> should get it right.  Brin's Transparent Society stuff makes two points
> - Cameras, networks and similar technology are going to keep getting cheaper,
>  so you're going to lose your privacy.  Give up on that now.

You're going to die anyway. Kill yourself now.

Non sequitur. If the development doesn't happen you don't have a case. If
hardware gets cheaper but is not deployed because voters value their
privacy you have no case. If countermeasures are legal you have no case.

The same technology driving global surveillance also offers advent of
countermeasures. I mentioned anonymous telepresence hardware proxies, and
sooner or later telepresence is going to become the preferred means of
interaction, and much later complete redesign of our hardware platform at
molecular scale will become possible. This will take time to develop. We
don't need power-crazy maniacs ruining it for everybody, really.

> - Governments _are_ going to take advantage of this, like it or not,

Governments are not complete juggernauts. They're somewhat controllable. 
It's surveillance that gives them the ultimate power to squash opposition. 
You included. Don't give them the means voluntarily. Fight.

>  so what the public has to do is make sure that we're allowed to
>  watch the government as well.

Dream on. Here's the point where Brin's assumptions break down. I can give
you a long list why this won't work.
 
> Brin may be naively optimistic about our ability to succeed on the second part,
> but he's spot on about the asymmetry of power relationships,
> and he's constantly making the point that we can only watch the government
> if we force them to let us watch - the alternative is that they'll be
> watching us and we won't be watching them.
> 
> Delaying technology?  It's easier to do on stuff that doesn't work well,

You can delay both development and deployment. If you delay it long enough 
it will no longer have the bite it would currently have. 

> and it sounds like this doesn't - perhaps the way to do it is to
> deflect the research away from surveillance into medical directions;
> since Darpa's funding it, get them to look at how to help soldiers carry
> heavy backpacks safely or spooks to carry dead bodies safely or whatever.

Political decisions could kill the demand driving development. Cheapest 
way for the fringe is to inform and develop countermeasures. Since 
cypherpunks no longer code, spreading information should have priority.

Pro-privacy senator dies in crash - Tech News - CNET.com (fwd)

[Jim Choate]

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-963440.html?tag=fd_top


 --


We don't see things as they are,  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
we see them as we are.   www.ssz.com
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Anais Nin www.open-forge.org

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FC: Privacy villain of the week: DARPA's gait surveillance tech (fwd)

[Eugen Leitl]

Advent of another technology wide deployment of which we must delay as
long as possible. In absence of rentable cryptographically anonymized
telepresence proxies it is provably impossible to completely hide all
unique fingerprints of a human, or even a complex mass-produced artifact.
Such a composite fingerprint will be impossible to fake and is impossible
to change without completely remaking the object of measurement. (Try
changing your body odor (MHC is genome-encoded and is the target of the
immunosystem), or rewire parts of CNS in control of your motorics).

While all current technologies are extremely limited in their capabilities
and have a high error rate this is not intrinsic to the principle. Such
systems can be eventually made to work sufficiently well for practice.

This is being made possible by further falling technology costs in regards
to mass fabbing, crunch and cheap ubiquitous wireless. Where's light, 
there's shadow.

Unfortunately, brinistas welcome this development because they idiotically
assume that the technology enables symmetrically, or even assymentrically
in favour of the governed vs. the government. Their arguments sound
superficially convincing to those unfamiliar with the political process
and the logics of power flow. This is the reason they're doing the wrong
thing for the right reasons. Supply the missing part of the argument
whenever you see Brinworld meme propagating.

Your best angle to delay this is to circulate this information widely, and
explain its potential impact to technologically naive. Write (personalized
dead tree, no electronic communication) to your political representatives.

No technical solution will work in absence of laws making it legal. Once
countermeasures are made illegal the development is basically
irreversible. Catch it before it's too late.

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:36:42 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FC: Privacy villain of the week: DARPA's gait surveillance tech

See also:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38775,00.html

---

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:19:34 -0400
From: J Plummer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: NCP: Privacy Villain of the Week: DARPA's HumanID at a Distance

Privacy Villain of the Week:
DARPA's HumanID at a Distance

The Defense Advance Research Projects Agency  has 
been one of the more fruitful government agenies in the past, its DARPAnet 
computer network being the foundation for what would become the Internet 
some years later. That is why reading about what this outfit is up to now 
can at times be disheartening. One such project is the HumanID at a 
Distance program, which aims to move beyond face-recognition technology and 
purportedly identify people by the way the walk.

The idea here is that by measuring with video or (clothes-penetrating) 
radar the distance between, say, 17 different points on the body 
 and measuring how these 
points move in relation to one another, a person can be positively and 
uniquely identified.

This "gait technology" by itself is neutral of course, just as technologies 
such as a gun or a needle or or the banging of flint against stone. The 
problem here arises in that by funding such research, the government is 
pushing a technology on society that it has not freely accepted through the 
voluntary choices made in the market. A patina of legitimacy is 
unfortunately added to such technologies when they have the imprimatur of 
the state behind them.
Even when the lead researchers on the project issue a press release 
 with conflictuing 
estimations of accuracy ranging from .0001% to 95%.

These selfsame researchers go on to tout the tech for use "around federal 
buildings" and in airports (which have now had their security systems 
completely taken over by the federal government). The airport situation is 
particularly troubling, in that it would be installed after the new 
Transportation Security Agency has complete control of all US airports. 
Adding the full-body radar scans that are part of a gait-biometric system 
to their CAPPS database incorporating name, Social Security number, credit 
history, travel history, etc., is a small step. This would be another peice 
of information in a federal database left wide open to abuse by not only 
those with official and unofficial clearance but anyone who bribes or hacks 
their way in.

In addition, the potential for false positives seems to be overwhelming. 
Even if the number is closer to 95% than .001%, what happens when a heavy 
piece of luggage and lack of sleep slumps the shoulders enough to peg a 
weary traveler as a dangerous terrorist? Is he or she strip-searched and 
detained by armed federal employees while the plane to his mother's funeral 
leaves for the other coast? This kind of technological forcing, especia

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