ASSISTANCE
Attn: I am Dr Godwin Igbunu, the Bank Manager of Regent Bank of Nigeria, Lagos Branch. I have urgent and very confidential business proposition for you. On June 6, 1997, a FOREIGN Oil Consultant/Contractor with the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation, Mr. Roger Berget made a numbered time (Fixed) Deposit for twelve calendar months, valued at US$8,000,000.00 (Eight Million Dollars) in my branch. Upon maturity, I sent a routine notification to his forwarding address but got no reply. After a month, we sent a reminder and finally we discovered from his contract employers, Ministry of Defence headquater in Abuja that Mr. Roger Berget died from an automobile accident. On further investigation, I found out that he died without making a WILL, and all attempts to trace his next of kin to date has fruitless. I therefore made further investigation and discovered that Mr. Roger Berget did not declare any kin or relations in all his official documents, including his Bank Deposit paperwork in my Bank. This sum of US$8,000,000.00 is still sitting in my Bank and the interest is being rolled over with the principal sum at the end of each year. No one will ever come forward to claim it. According to Nigerian Law, at the expiration of 5 (five) years, the money will revert to the ownership of the Nigerian Government if nobody applies to claim the fund. Consequently, my proposal is that I will like you as an Foreigner to stand in as the next of kin to Mr. Roger Berget so that the fruits of this old man's labor will not get into the hands of some corrupt government officials. This is simple, I will like you to provide immediately your full names, address, telephone and fax numers so that the Attorney will prepare the necessary documents and affidavits, which will put you in place as the next of kin. We shall employ the service of two Attorneys for drafting and notarization of the WILL and to obtain the necessary documents and letter of probate/administration in your favor for the transfer. A bank account in any part of the world, which you will provide, will then facilitate the transfer of this money to you as the beneficiary/next of kin. The money will be paid into your nominated account for us to share in the ratio of 70% for me, 25% for you and 5% to cover any accidental expenses on either sides during the course of this transaction. There is no risk at all as all the paperwork for this transaction will be done by the Attorney and my position as the Branch Manager guarantees the successful execution of this transaction. If you are interested, please reply immediately via this email address. Upon your response, I shall then provide you with more details and relevant documents that will help you understand the transaction better. Please observe utmost confidentiality, and rest assured that this transaction would be most profitable for both of us because I shall require your assistance to invest my share in your country. Looking forward to hearing from you soonest. Best regards, Dr Godwin Igbunu Please you can also reach me with this email address [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Your with jimmyd,or your with the terrorists.
I THINK THERE MIGHT BE GOOD MONEY SELLING INTERNET CRYING TOWELS THESE DAYS jimmyd _writes Lately, a lot's been written about the future of the internet, make that the future of smut on the internet. It's evident by what's written that the once-mighty are beginning to feel some heat. They see the future, and sometimes it looks like a homeless guy begging on a freeway offramp, and other times it looks like a government official in a dark, blue suit. Whichever one it looks like--perhaps both--it doesn't look good. Yep, they see the future, and it doesn't look too rosey. It's been quite a rollercoaster ride for some of these webporn exploiters; and I use that term in the nicest possible way. They've had their ups and their downs, but mostly in the last few years, a lot of them had their ups. There have been so many ways to make money. Forget about designing a cool website with great content that would attract many visitors, and hopefully, quite a few members. No, the real money has been in less obvious offerings like the buying, selling, manipulating, redirecting, and exploiting of traffic. Supposedly 'free' sites and TGPs have acted like the carnival barkers of days gone by. They promise the world if you'll only pass through this particular door... this portal... this gateway to the fullfillment of your wildest, kinkiest, sickest, most outrageous and kinky fantasies. Of course, they don't actually deliver on the promises, again much like yesteryear's barkers, but once they get you to click through on the promise of sexual paradise their job is done and they only have to hold their hands out for their lords and masters--the big trafficteers--to share a bit of the swag. There have also been more than a few of these www-dot-webmoguls who simply found that the net has been a great place to pick pockets. Common thieves you might wonder? Actually, yes. Induce some poor slob to plunk down his credit card number--again with those carvival barker's promises--and simply charge... and charge... and charge the stupid fuck's card and line your pockets with electronic booty. Nice scam, huh? But now the crying towels are being distributed. Oh woe is us! The pathetic mourn of internet thieves, hucksters, flim-flam artists, con men and women, grifters, and pick-pockets fills the air. I'm not saying everyone out there using the web to make a few bucks, maybe a lot of bucks, is a thief or a con. But you know what? There's more than a few of them who have been just that. And to them, and they know who they are, I'd simply like to say, from the simply warmest part of my heart, Fuck you assholes! You deserve it and more. I could give a shit less what kind of problems the scumbags amongst you are suddenly encountering. Eat your shit and be grateful for it, cuz that's more than a some of you deserve. More than a few of you started out by stealing content from those who worked hard to produce it. To you I say, Fuck you! You deserve it! Some of you scammed a bunch of dumb fucks into giving you their credit cards--you fucked them good--and now the credit card companies don't trust any of you. To you credit card fraudsters and thieves, I say Fuck you! You deserve it! And then there's those of you who spammed incessantly, made false promises, redirected people to anywhere but where they wanted to go, and while doing so you collected some nice toll charges. To you I say, Fuck you! You deserve it! You see, I've never had much sympathy for scumbags and the truth of the matter is that there's more than a few scumbags among you. Certainly not all of you, but certainly a healthy number of you. And because of you--the rotten apples in the barrel--the shit's about to hit the fan and get splattered all over the freakin' net. Because of you the government is probably going to find good and just cause to regulate. Because of you the cost of doing business on the net is going to rise exponentially. But mostly because of you, the party is over. Some of you created your own brand of internet karma and now I'm afraid all of you might have to pay the price for it. Posted by jimmyd on Tuesday, November 12, 2002 - 11:55 PM PST (0 Reads) IS THE PORN BIZ KILLING ITSELF? GREG ZEBORAY OFFERS HIS ANALYSIS jimmyd _writes In a simplyjimmyd exclusive, veteran insurance and production services guy to the jiz biz, Greg Zeboray, takes a stab at answering the question that's on everyone's mind: Is the porn business killing itself? (Please note: Only simplyjimmyd.com carries this sort of serious, incisive, thoughtful analysis of our business. Accept no substitutes for simplyjimmyd.com: A place where a completely absurd business is always treated with intelligence and respect.) Greg writes: In regards to Is this business killing itself? the answer is no. People particularly the new people coming in need to recognize that the exponential growth period is over, and that adult has now
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cypherpunks@minder.net
Title: Ç廪 Ç廪¡¢±±´ó״Ԫ̸ѧ ½ÌÓý²¿È¨Íþ³ö°æ ½ô¸úÐÎÊƵĽÌÓýÏîÄ¿,ÎÒÃÇ×÷Ϊ½ÌÓý´«²¥¼¯ÍÅ£¬ÈÎÎñ¾ÍÊÇ°Ñ×îÇ°ÑصĽÌÓýÏîÄ¿ÒÔ×î¿ì µÄËٶȴ«²¥µ½¸÷µØÇøÓû§¡£½ñÌØÔÚ¸÷ÏØÊÐÑ°ÕÒ´úÀíÉÌ£¨¸öÈË£¬ÖÐС¹«Ë¾´úÀí¾ù¿É£©¡£ÈÈ Ïú²úÆ·£¬Êг¡¾Þ´ó£¬Õþ¸®Ö§³Ö¡£½ÌÓý²¿ µç»¯³ö°æ´óÐ͵çÊÓרÌâƬ£º¡¶Ê¦Ëµ¡ª¡ªÃûʦ̸ ½ÌÓëѧ¡·¡¶×´Ôª¡ª¡ª¸ß¿¼×´ÔªÌ¸Ñ§¡·£¬vcd36µú£¬ÃæÏò³õ¸ßÖÐѧУºÍ¼ÒÍ¥¡£½ÌÓý²¿µÈ Áù²¿Î¯Ö÷°ì´óÐͻ¡°ÖйúС¹«ÃñµÀµÂ½¨Éè¼Æ»®¡±£¬ÅäÌ׳ö°æÐû´«¹Òͼ£¬´ó¶Ô¿ª²ÊÉ«49 ÕÅѹĤ£¬ÃæÏòСѧ/ÉçÇø/Ó׶ùÔ°/¸÷»ú¹ØµÈµÈÓмÛÖµµÄ×ÊÁÏ¡£ÓÉÖйú¹ØÐÄÏÂÒ»´ú¹¤×÷ ίԱ»áÖ÷°ìµÄ´óÐÍ¿ÆÆÕÈËÎÄ֪ʶչÀÀ£¬ÎªÁËʵÏÖÖлªÃñ×åµÄΰ´ó¸´ÐË---È«¹úÇà ÉÙÄê´óÐÍ¿ÆÆÕÈËÎÄ֪ʶչÀÀѲչ»î¶¯¡£Ã¿µØÊÐÐèÒªÒ»¼Ò´úÀí£¬¾ßÓÐÁ¼ºÃµÄÉç»áÊÕÒæºÍ ¾¼ÃÊÕÒ棬Èç¹ûÄú¾¹ýÎÒÃÇÉóºË³ÉΪµ±µØµÄ´úÀí ¡£ ½«ÊÕÒæ·Çdz¡£ÇÐÎð´í¹ýÁ¼»ú£¡ ×Éѯµç»°£º010-82384355/56/57/58 ÁªÏµÈË£ºÕÅÃ÷£¨ÏÈÉú£© e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ±±¾©Çå±±½ÌÓý´«²¥¼¯ÍÅ µØÖ·£º±±¾©º£µíÇø־з41ºÅ ÄúȱÉÙµÄÊÇÎÒÃÇ×îÇ°ÑصÄÐÅÏ¢ ÎÒÃÇȱÉÙÄú·á¸»µÄµ±µØ×ÊÔ´ ÁªÆðÊÖÀ´ ÎÒÃǹ²Í¬³É¾ÍһƬÌì¿Õ£¡
Fotokopi + Faks
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Fotokopi + Faks
Title: Kopitek www.kopitek.com.tr Canon NP6512 Fotokopi Makinesi + Canon B155 Faks Makinesi Sadece 1100 Euro Ofisinizi kuruyoruz , fotokopi sizden faks bizden... OZELLIKLER : Dakikada 12 A4 sayfa fotokopi Sadece Toner kullanimi (Developersiz sistem) Cok Yonluluk %70-%141 kucultme ve buyultme özelliði (%1 hanelik dilimlerle) Esneklik Renkli kaðýtlara ve asetat kagitlara baski imkani Enerji Tasarrufu Canon'un SURF teknolojisi sayesinde sifir isinma suresi ile enerji tasarrufu saglar. Ayrintili bilgi ve siparis icin: KOPITEK KOPYALAMA SISTEMLERI LTD. STI. Tel :(0216) 3059885Pbx Fax:(0216) 3059884 Url :http:// www.kopitek.com.tr E-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] maillistten cikmak icin TIKLAYIN .
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Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote: Jim Choate wrote: What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of para-consistent logic as well And I replied: No. There are consistent systems, and complete systems, that do not admit Godel's theorem, but apparently not a system that is both (although even the last is subject to dispute, and problems of definition). Which is the point of Godel's, you're arguing in circles here son. Perhaps you've been out in the sun too long ;) [SSZ: text deleted] However you can have eg arithmetics without Peano counting, and so on, and there are (trivial according to Godel, but even he acknowledged that they exist) systems that are both complete (all problems have answers) and consistent (no statement is both true and false). [SSZ: text deleted] Can you do interesting things in such systems? Yes. But you tend to leave intuition behind. What the hell does 'counting' have to do with para-consistent logic on this? Extraordinary claims... Para-consistent logic is logic where statements -can't by definition- be given an absolute true/false, in fact para-consistent logic allows axiomatic statements that are in direct conflict. The 'para' comes from 'paradox'. Considering the state of the real world I doubt you'd leave very much 'intuition behind' by moving to a para-consistent model. The answer of course is Yes, Godel's applies to Para-Consistent Logic. Irrespective of whatever logic you wish to use, it will be sensitive to Godel's because Godel's is a sort of halting theorem that says that with respect to decidability you can't devise an algorithm in any language or representation that will -guarentee- and answer to the question of whether a particular question has an answer. Godel's applies irrespective of the contents of any given system, paradoxical or consistent be damned. What really matters is the 'complete', not the 'consistent'. Godel's doesn't apply to incomplete systems because by definition there are statements which can be made which can't be expressed, otherwise it would be complete. You can't prove something if you can't express it since there is no way to get the machine to 'hold' it to work on it. -- We don't see things as they are, [EMAIL PROTECTED] we see them as we are. www.ssz.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anais Nin www.open-forge.org
Morning Briefing, 11/13/2002
Title: Morning Briefing, 11/13/2002 WEDNESDAY a.m. November 13, 2002 The Weekly VIX by David Nichols It continues to amaze me how this market looks and feels so much like the rally off the September lows last year . The washout bottom, the snapback rally, the sideways congestion -- it's all the same. During that rally phase, the markets did a tremendous job bluffing that a major collapse was always moments away. Especially right before the second leg of the rally. Now the daily chart looks very similar. We've had three red candles and an indecision day. So today's the day for the big white candle. If it's a big red candle instead, chalk one up for the bears. There's a trendy catch phrase familiar to all young parents now, called the "comfort zone". This refers to a place where your child feels secure and well-balanced. On the daily chart of the OEX, it's clear that investors have a "comfort zone" right now between 440 and 460 on the OEX. The market seems to be irresistibly drawn back into this area during periods of uncertainty. Right now we're right in the middle of the zone at 450. So now the big question is which way out of this zone will the market break. This is the million-dollar big picture question. And for the big picture, you've got to look at the longer-term charts. A look at the weekly VIX reveals a very bullish setup, and I believe it is this chart that is going to govern the behavior of the markets over the next six to nine months. I'm going to have to get a little more technical here than I usually do, but I promise, I'm actually trying not to be confusing. There is a great and popular indicator called the "Moving Average Convergence Divergence", which is known as the MACD (pronounced Mac-Dee). It is a momentum oscillator, and a great trend indicator. The MACD starts with the difference between two moving averages. The typical MACD calculates the difference between a 26 period moving average and a 12 period moving average, and charts this as the "fast line" (blue line). This fast line is then smoothed with a 9 period moving average, to come up with the "slow line" (red line). These two are then plotted in relation to the zero line, and the direction they move and when they cross over tells a lot about what's going on with the chart. On the weekly chart of the VIX, we can see an amazingly clear amplitude increase on the momentum waves on the MACD. During these latest two price bottoms in July and October, the momentum of volatility hit long-term extremes. I believe this was the climax of the bear market, in living color. A concept I bring up repeatedly is the fact that volatility is the only market trait that is anti-persistent. Volatility has a strong tendency to do the opposite of what it just did. You can see this very clearly on the weekly chart. It flip-flops between high volatility and low volatility. Price action is the opposite, and is very persistent. It trends. You can see this clearly on a comparable chart of price, over the same exact time period. So if we just had a climactic momentum high in volatility, then we can expect the anti-persistence to do its thing and move volatility down to the low end of its range. Clearly the momentum is now already moving in this direction on the weekly chart. Here's a close-up of the weekly VIX with the MACD: This is a very powerful force. I believe that this chart will now govern the way the market behaves over the next six to nine months. This is one of the main reasons I am expecting a "bull phase", as when the weekly momentum in the VIX is dropping, that is strongly correlated with a bullish phase for the markets. It's an uphill battle to fight the big-picture trend. It's better to flow with the trend. Last year it took a full six months for the spike in the VIX during the Aug/Sept sell-off to get worked off. Since this was a higher momentum high, then it could take even longer than that this time around. Of course lots of activity -- both up and down -- can go on beneath this bigger trend. Phil Erlanger and I disagree about which force is going to be ultimately more important in the market -- Phil believes that overhead resistance is going to be the dominant theme, and I believe the long-term momentum of sentiment will hold sway. So we'll see which way it plays out, and we shouldn't have too long to wait. Sentiment Analysis from Phil Erlanger What's a Squeezeometer? More Definitions. This Morning Briefing is brought to you by 21st Century Alert. Your 21st Century Alert subscription offers so much more. Click here to go to 21st Century Alert's Web site. You can find this article on the Web at:
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1389uEos1-113bnCM1128vlRg0-839hCMa9798PtNP1-283mHIN8242Mcga2-942gVmJ2l651389uEos1-113bnCM1128vlRg0-839hCMa9798PtNP1-283mHIN8242Mcga2-942gVmJ2l651389uEos1-113bnCM1128vlRg0-839hCMa9798PtNP1-283mHIN8242Mcga2-942gVmJ2l65 ³ë Áø°øÆßÇÁ, ³ë ¼ö¼ú, ³ë ¾à¹° ¾È½ÉÇϽʽÿÀ! ÀÌÁ¦ ´ç½ÅÀº ÀÛÀº ¼º±â¸¦ °®°í ÀÖ´Ù°í Çؼ ³²µéÇÑÅ× ¿µî°¨À» ´À³¥ ÇÊ¿ä°¡ ÀüÇô ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ´ç½ÅÀº Áö±ÝºÎÅÍ ¾ÆÁÖ Ä¿´Ù¶õ ¼º±â¸¦ °¡Áú ¼ö ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍÀº Á¤¸» ²Þ°°Àº »ç½ÇÀ̸ç, ¹Ù·Î ´ç½ÅÀÇ ´«¾Õ¿¡ ´Ù°¡¿Ô½À´Ï´Ù. ÀÌÁ¦ ´ç½ÅÀº ÀÚ¿¬½º·´°í °¡Àå È¿°úÀûÀÎ ¹æ¹ýÀ¸·Î ¼º±âÈ®´ë(Æä´Ï½ºÈ®´ë) ±â¼úÀ» ¹è¿ì°Ô µÉ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍÀº ³ªÀÌ, ¼º±âÅ©±â, ÀÎÁ¾¿¡ °ü°è¾øÀÌ ¼¼°è ¾î´À ³²¼º¿¡°Ô³ª Àû¿ëµÇµµ·Ï ¿¬±¸¿Í ½ÃÇèÀ» °ÅÃÄ ³î¶ó¿î »ç½Ç·Î Áõ¸í µÇ¾î°¡°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ÀÌ·¯ÇÑ »ç½ÇÀ» ¾ËÁö ¸øÇÏ°í Áö³ªÄ£ ³²¼ºÀº ½º½º·Î ³«¿ÀµÇ¾ú´Ù°í º¸¾Æµµ °ú¾ðÀÌ ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¡¼ ÀÌ »çÀÌÆ®¸¦ º» °Í¸¸À¸·Îµµ ´ç½ÅÀº Çà¿îÀ̶ó°í ¸»ÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¸¸ÀÏ ´ç½ÅÀÌ ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ ¼º±âÈ®´ë(±æ°í, ±½°Ô, ±×¸®°í ´Ü´ÜÇÏ°Ô)¿¡ ¸Å¿ì °ü½ÉÀ» °®°í ÀÖ´Ù¸é [EMAIL PROTECTED]·Î ¹®ÀÇÇØ ÁֽʽÿÀ. ±×°ÍÀº ¿©·¯ºÐÀÇ ÀλýÀ» º¯ÇÏ°Ô ÇÒ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÁÖÀÇ: ÀÌ°ÍÀº ³²¼º ¼º±âÀÇ ¹ß±â¿¡ °üÇÑ ¹®Á¦°¡ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó ¼º±â Å©±â¸¦ ¿øõÀûÀ¸·Î Å©°Ô ÇÏ´Â °ÍÀ» ¸»ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ºòÇÁ·Î±×·¥ ÀÌ¿ë ÇÑ´Þ ÈÄ¿¡ ¸Å¿ì °¨¸íÀ» ¹Þ¾Ò½À´Ï´Ù. 12cm¿¡¼ 15cm·Î ½ÇÁ¦·Î Æä´Ï½º°¡ Ä¿Á³½À´Ï´Ù. ±×»Ó¸¸ÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó ÇǼøȯÀÌ ÀߵǴ °ÍÀ» ´À²¼°í, ±ÍµÎ ºÎºÐÀÇ Á÷°æÀÌ 1cm³ª Ä¿Á³½À´Ï´Ù. ¼½½º½Ã¿¡µµ ÆØ⠹߱â¿Í ÇÔ²² ¼º°¨ÀÌ ÇÑÃþ ÁÁ¾ÆÁø °Íµµ ´À³¥ ¼ö ÀÖ¾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ºòÇÁ·Î±×·¥Àº Á¤¸» ÈḢÇÑ °ª¾îÄ¡ÀÖ´Â ÇÁ·Î±×·¥ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ¿ÀÈ÷·Á ÀÌ Á¤º¸¸¦ ¸ð¸£´Â ³²Àڵ鿡°Ô ¹Ì¾ÈÇÑ ¸¶À½ÀÌ µé±â±îÁö ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ¹Ú»óÇå, 32¼¼ ´ë±¸, Á¤¸» ÁÁÀº ÇÁ·Î±×·¥ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.! ³ª´Â Àü¿¡´Â ´Ù¸¥¹æ¹ýÀ¸·Î ¼º±â È®´ë¸¦ ÇÏ·Á°í Çß¾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ÀϹÝÀûÀ¸·Î ¾Ë·ÁÁø ÆßÇÁÁúÀ̳ª °£´ÜÇÑ Å×Å©´ÐÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶õ °ÍÀ» ¾Ë¾Ò½À´Ï´Ù. ½ÇÁ¦·Î ºòÇÁ·Î±×·¥À» ¿À·§µ¿¾ÈÀº ½ÇÇàÇÏÁö ¾Ê¾ÒÁö¸¸ ³ªÀÇ Æä´Ï½º°¡ ½ÇÁ¦·Î Å©°Ô º¸ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. Á¤¸» °í¸¿½À´Ï´Ù. ±èâ¸í, 29¼¼ ¼¿ï Àá½Ç, ºòÇÁ·Î±×·¥À» 2000³â 8¿ù15ÀÏ¿¡ ½ÃÀÛÇß½À´Ï´Ù. ¿îµ¿Áß¿¡ ´ÜÁö ÀÏÁÖÀϸ¸ ½ÇÇàÇÏÁö ¸øÇß½À´Ï´Ù. 3°³¿ùÈÄ¿¡ 13cm¿¡¼ 17cm·Î Æä´Ï½º°¡ Ä¿Áö´Â °ÍÀ» ¾Ë¾Ò½À´Ï´Ù. Á÷°æÀº ¾à 1cm°¡ ´õ Ä¿Áø°Í °°½À´Ï´Ù. ³»°¡ ¿øÇß´ø °á°ú¸¦ 2cm³ª ÃÊ°úÇß½À´Ï´Ù. ÀÌ·±½ÄÀ¸·Î ³ª°¡¸é ¾ó¸¶ÈÄ¿¡´Â 20cmµµ °¡´ÉÇÑ °Í°°½À´Ï´Ù. ºòÇÁ·Î±×·¥Àº Àγ»¿Í ²ÙÁØÇÔÀ» ¿ä±¸ÇÏ´Â °Í°°½À´Ï´Ù. ³²ÀÚµéÀÌ¿©, Àý´ë·Î Áß´ÜÇÏÁö ¸¶½Ê½Ã¿À! ÀÌ·± Á¤º¸¸¦ ÁּżŠ°¨»çÇÕ´Ï´Ù. - ÀÌ»ó±æ, 33¼¼ 5942iQDP1-192dHUs2l17
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Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!) When we say complete, are we talking about completeness in the Godelian sense? According to Godel, and formal system (except for the possibility of the oddballs mentioned below--I hadn't heard of this possibility) is incomplete in that there will exist true statements that can not be proven given the axioms of that system. This does not have to be anything complex...a statement like 2+2=4 in some systems may be obviously true, but there's no way to get there given the other axioms in the system. This statement must then be added to the axiom list. After that (old axioms +(the 2+2=4 axiom)), we now have a new formal system, and there will (not might!) exist another statement that is true but unprovable, and so on. In a sense, then, no system is ever complete. As for the nature of the system in which Godelian Incompleteness applies, I'm not enough of a number theorist to remember. BUT...in Turing terms I know that any system that is equivalent to a Turing Machine will have the Incompleteness property. (In addition, Godelian Provability is equivalent, I think, to the Turing Halting Problem. Statements that are true but unprovable will never halt...correct?)In other words, any system that can be used for useful computation will suffer from incompletenenss, so I would assume para-consistent logic would fall under that category (is that similar to fuzzy logic?). I have not, however, heretofore considered that there could exist systems that had some form of completeness built in. My intuition (which is easily wrong) tells me that no such system could ever be useful in the real world, but who the heck knows? From: Jim Choate [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:27:44 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote: Jim Choate wrote: What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of para-consistent logic as well And I replied: No. There are consistent systems, and complete systems, that do not admit Godel's theorem, but apparently not a system that is both (although even the last is subject to dispute, and problems of definition). Which is the point of Godel's, you're arguing in circles here son. Perhaps you've been out in the sun too long ;) [SSZ: text deleted] However you can have eg arithmetics without Peano counting, and so on, and there are (trivial according to Godel, but even he acknowledged that they exist) systems that are both complete (all problems have answers) and consistent (no statement is both true and false). [SSZ: text deleted] Can you do interesting things in such systems? Yes. But you tend to leave intuition behind. What the hell does 'counting' have to do with para-consistent logic on this? Extraordinary claims... Para-consistent logic is logic where statements -can't by definition- be given an absolute true/false, in fact para-consistent logic allows axiomatic statements that are in direct conflict. The 'para' comes from 'paradox'. Considering the state of the real world I doubt you'd leave very much 'intuition behind' by moving to a para-consistent model. The answer of course is Yes, Godel's applies to Para-Consistent Logic. Irrespective of whatever logic you wish to use, it will be sensitive to Godel's because Godel's is a sort of halting theorem that says that with respect to decidability you can't devise an algorithm in any language or representation that will -guarentee- and answer to the question of whether a particular question has an answer. Godel's applies irrespective of the contents of any given system, paradoxical or consistent be damned. What really matters is the 'complete', not the 'consistent'. Godel's doesn't apply to incomplete systems because by definition there are statements which can be made which can't be expressed, otherwise it would be complete. You can't prove something if you can't express it since there is no way to get the machine to 'hold' it to work on it. -- We don't see things as they are, [EMAIL PROTECTED] we see them as we are. www.ssz.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anais Nin www.open-forge.org _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Jim Choate wrote: What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of para-consistent logic as well It applies to any sufficiently complex axiomatic system. Allegedly. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff
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Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote: Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!) It's full of nut cases too :-) I have not, however, heretofore considered that there could exist systems that had some form of completeness built in. My intuition (which is easily wrong) tells me that no such system could ever be useful in the real world, but who the heck knows? All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) I've wondered about that...I suspect that if God exists, then He is true but unprovable in any useful system! -TD PS: According to Godel's biographer, Godel at one point passed around a proof of the existence of God! (But towards the end of his life he also started wearing a surgical mask everywhere and became intensely germaphobic...) From: Mike Rosing [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:26:02 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote: Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!) It's full of nut cases too :-) I have not, however, heretofore considered that there could exist systems that had some form of completeness built in. My intuition (which is easily wrong) tells me that no such system could ever be useful in the real world, but who the heck knows? All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Emergency Coercive Unit
At 10:59 -0500 on 11/13/02, Tyler Durden wrote: b) Downstairs and across the street in front of Starbucks I just saw two NYC cops holding what looked like AK-47s...on their backs it said Emergency Coercive Unit. I always knew New York was full of commie bastards. I thought they were smart enough to hide themselves behind good capitalist weapons. Like an AR-15 or an MP-5. 3 -- _ Kevin Elliott mailto:kelliott;mac.com ICQ#23758827
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
The Yodel does not have a web site where yodels can be converted into some other form of money, and other forms of money converted into Yodels. Instead it has an IIRC bot. Use of this bot is described at http://yodel.deep-ice.com/bankbot.html This means a command line interface, to do banking transactions. This of course greatly reduced the work required to implement the Yodel, but will greatly limit the acceptability of the Yodel.
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Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 09:12 AM, Tyler Durden wrote: All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) I've wondered about that...I suspect that if God exists, then He is true but unprovable in any useful system! -TD PS: According to Godel's biographer, Godel at one point passed around a proof of the existence of God! (But towards the end of his life he also started wearing a surgical mask everywhere and became intensely germaphobic...) There are a lot of Godel anecdotes to tell. I never met him. Two things about his theory: 1. There's a more powerful (IMNSHO) formulation of it in terms of algorithmic information theory, usually associated with Greg Chaitin but also drawing on the AIT work of Kolmogorov and others. This says, in informal language, no theory can describe something more complicated than itself. If a theory has 20 bits of complexity, things of 21 bits or more just can't be described/proved. Rudy Rucker has a good description of this in his excellent book Mind Tools. And Chaitin has authored several books and a few very readable Scientific American types of articles. Google will have more on his sites, his papers. 2. This said, my point about not looking to Godelian undecidability sorts of issues for crypto is that it just appears to be too far out there. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever found a way to make such things useful in crypto...not even things like Presburger arithmetic, which is harder than NP-complete but not yet Godelian undecideable. (One semi-joke is that Godel's results are something every mathematician should learn about but that no working mathematician will ever actually need to use.) --Tim May
Re: Codetalking in the South Pacific?
Oh yeah, another thing I wanted to ask about, before I forget. It's somewhat well-known that throughout the South pacific, there are radio stations that do nothing but broadcast the real-time reading of number sequences, but no one seems to know just why. And these number sequences do not seem to be recordings...every station has a different voice, and the number sequences never repeat. So it would seem that they are being read in real time by natives employed at various islands. Anyone know what the heck those things are? There's actually a 3-CD collection available of the number broadcasts. From: Major Variola (ret) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Codetalking, private business, harassment, EEOC, freedom of speech/association Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:01:25 -0800 [Summary: Navajo is banned by employer because employees are being rude in that language. So the EEOC objects. Ironies: Navajo, codetalkers, feds. EEOC harassing employer who is trying to prevent harassment (in Navajo) of others.] English group enters Navajo language fray From the National Desk Published 11/12/2002 5:59 PM View printer-friendly version PHOENIX, Nov. 12 (UPI) -- The legal dispute over an Arizona restaurant's rule banning employees from speaking Navajo on the job drew the participation Tuesday of a national organization that advocates English as the official language of the United States. The suit was the first filed by the EEOC to involve a Native American language. snip http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021112-044422-7977r [Libscoop: since neither employers nor employees should be coerced, the employers can morally require what they want, and the employees can shop for employment uncoerced too. Meddling DC-bureaucrats should be tomahawked at the door; after being told to leave in Esperanto.] _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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Re: CDR: Re: Codetalking in the South Pacific?
The ones we used to hear on the shortwave in Europe were enciphered transmissions to agents from their controllers. Most of the numbers broadcasts originated in the East Bloc, but there's no reason to suppose that the West didn't use them for agent communications as well. At least in the Russians' case, the cipher keys were one-time pads issued to the agents in personal meetings or through dead drops - a key element of vulnerability in their networks. Marc de Piolenc Tyler Durden wrote: Oh yeah, another thing I wanted to ask about, before I forget. It's somewhat well-known that throughout the South pacific, there are radio stations that do nothing but broadcast the real-time reading of number sequences, but no one seems to know just why.
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Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
Gary Jeffers writes: The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing? The beneficiaries of this war are: 1. United State: 2. Corporations, connected. 3. The ruling elite families. 4. The Zionists. Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above would do better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise, initiative and enlightenment in the world today. What is the alternative? Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place with someone like him controlling Iraqi oil? He's no better than any of the groups above. He took power by force and rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections - 100% of the vote was supposedly for Hussein! What a joke. How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or rich Americans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein? A 21st century where democratic, liberal Western democracies control the world will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards, repressive, religious ideologies like Islam dominate. The mere fact that you feel free to criticize the U.S., but would never go to Iraq and criticize Hussein just proves the point. Sure, freedom of speech is not absolute in the U.S., and the degree of protection has fluctuated; during WWI people were sent to jail for criticizing the draft, but we're nowhere near that point now. But these freedoms are non-existant in Iraq, China, and other countries which are the real threat to peace and freedom in the coming decades. Look at http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=3235 which describes a case in neighboring Iran where a respected academic was sentenced to DEATH for saying that Muslims should not blindly obey the Imams. These are the forces which are trying to assert their dominance over the world as we move into this new century. We either stand by and let it happen, condemning future generations to lives of suffering, poverty and ignorance, or we take steps to stop it, defending Western culture and its ideals of freedom. That's what's really at stake here. We're fighting over which ideology will control the world. And yes, oil is a potent weapon in this struggle. Leaving those vast oil resources in the hands of conservative Muslims would be a huge mistake from the perspective of this decades-long war. So let's agree with Gary Jeffers: Beat State! But the state we must beat is the state of religious persecution and dictatorship practiced by Hussein. If we hold all states to the same standard instead of heaping criticism only on one, we will see that Iraq is far more deserving of condemnation than most. Their government deserves to be beaten, to be destroyed. It would be the finest gift we could give to the Iraqi people.
RE: Emergency Coercive Unit
Tyler wrote: b) Downstairs and across the street in front of Starbucks I just saw two NYC cops holding what looked like AK-47s...on their backs it said Emergency Coercive Unit. A URL with pictures of that team would be appreciated. --Lucky
FACTS FOR ASSISTANCE
Dear friend, I am sorry, but have to come this way as the only available means of contacting you, on inquiries for a capable, reliable and God fearing person outside this my country Nigeria for immediate assistance, you were complimented as a personality with such qualities. I am Mr. Musa Ahmed, the first son of Major General Isika Ahmed, who is presently undergoing trail along with other officers for their involvement in abuse of military offices and power. Like most top military functionaries in this country, my father manipulated the sum of Forty million, Five hundred thousand dollars (US$40.5 million), this he deposited with a security and finance house amongst others, which were deposited with Nigerian banks, but were discovered and seized by this present civilian administration on assumption of office. He was able to achieve this with his privilege position of office during his tenure, I want this money transferred out of this country before the authorities gets to it. All arrangement to this effect have been concluded, top Nigerian government functionaries like my father have been and are still successfully transferring our funds to foreign contacts. Consequent upon this fact, I feel not guilty of transferring these said funds for my immediate families benefit, hence my father's incarceration. I humbly seek your assistance to achieving this goal and would want to detail you regarding this subject matter among others like your benefits for assistance. Call me on my telephone number; 2348033318480, where there is anything you do not understand, so that we can discuss it verbally. Otherwise, send to me your telephone/fax numbers and your contact address, indicating your willingness to assist me receive the above mentioned funds into your existing account or a newly opened account by you as you may desire it done through a diplomatic means as would be applicable by the security company, the custodian of the funds from inception of deposit. Best regards, Mr. Musa Ahmed jk4.txt Description: Binary data
Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or rich Americans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein? Can't answer that directly, aside from pointing out that theUS is largely responsible for Hussein's rise to power. I could be argued that oil in our hands has created many a Saddam. Aside from this is the issue of continued American dependence on oil, a dependence that could be greatly reduced if we put our minds to it, but we seem to be so addicted to our current lifestyle that we would rather launch wars rather than face our internal issues. Anyone guess where's Waldo (Osama) now? My guess he's on the end of a bungee being kicked into Iraq right now! (The other end of the bungee is in a US chopper!) From: Nomen Nescio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:10:13 +0100 (CET) Gary Jeffers writes: The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing? The beneficiaries of this war are: 1. United State: 2. Corporations, connected. 3. The ruling elite families. 4. The Zionists. Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above would do better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise, initiative and enlightenment in the world today. What is the alternative? Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place with someone like him controlling Iraqi oil? He's no better than any of the groups above. He took power by force and rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections - 100% of the vote was supposedly for Hussein! What a joke. How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or rich Americans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein? A 21st century where democratic, liberal Western democracies control the world will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards, repressive, religious ideologies like Islam dominate. The mere fact that you feel free to criticize the U.S., but would never go to Iraq and criticize Hussein just proves the point. Sure, freedom of speech is not absolute in the U.S., and the degree of protection has fluctuated; during WWI people were sent to jail for criticizing the draft, but we're nowhere near that point now. But these freedoms are non-existant in Iraq, China, and other countries which are the real threat to peace and freedom in the coming decades. Look at http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=3235 which describes a case in neighboring Iran where a respected academic was sentenced to DEATH for saying that Muslims should not blindly obey the Imams. These are the forces which are trying to assert their dominance over the world as we move into this new century. We either stand by and let it happen, condemning future generations to lives of suffering, poverty and ignorance, or we take steps to stop it, defending Western culture and its ideals of freedom. That's what's really at stake here. We're fighting over which ideology will control the world. And yes, oil is a potent weapon in this struggle. Leaving those vast oil resources in the hands of conservative Muslims would be a huge mistake from the perspective of this decades-long war. So let's agree with Gary Jeffers: Beat State! But the state we must beat is the state of religious persecution and dictatorship practiced by Hussein. If we hold all states to the same standard instead of heaping criticism only on one, we will see that Iraq is far more deserving of condemnation than most. Their government deserves to be beaten, to be destroyed. It would be the finest gift we could give to the Iraqi people. _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
Hmm, interesting -- how come the original of this came never came thru lne.com? And I think there's been at least a couple of others lately that I only saw in someone quote -- wasn't 100% sure about them, but I am this one. Gary Jeffers writes: The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing? The beneficiaries of this war are: 1. United State: 2. Corporations, connected. 3. The ruling elite families. 4. The Zionists. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources. - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 03:10:13AM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: Gary Jeffers writes: The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing? The beneficiaries of this war are: 1. United State: 2. Corporations, connected. 3. The ruling elite families. 4. The Zionists. Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above would do better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise, initiative and enlightenment in the world today. What is the alternative? Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place with someone like him controlling Iraqi oil? Right, and I can do better things with your money than you can, so why shouldn't I just kill you and take it? He's no better than any of the groups above. He took power by force and rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections - 100% of the vote was supposedly for Hussein! What a joke. How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or rich Americans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein? I don't see that Saddam is any less moral than Dubbya and Asscruft. A 21st century where democratic, liberal Western democracies control the world will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards, repressive, religious ideologies like Islam dominate. A far better idea is for the UN to invade the US, depose it's evil, warmongering leader, destroy all the WOMD, and free the oppressed populace. (rest of absurd rant snipped) -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources. - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote: That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then there's no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious beliefs; and if anything can be proven false, then there's no god, and religion is crushed under the heel of reason. Hurrah, Enlightenment! ~SAM Don't bet on it. I was in a discussion group a week or so ago and one lady who is super devout (of some christian sect, I'm not really sure which one) claimed that she was always testing her faith every day. It really shook me up because I have faith in testing. Religion and reason are not in the same universe! My favorite response on the subject of god is I have no need of that hypothisis. I forget who it's attributed to, but I think it was from the late 1800's. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
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Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
[ I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but there might be someone out there who could benefit from this. ] Tyler Durden wrote: Aside from this is the issue of continued American dependence on oil, a dependence that could be greatly reduced if we put our minds to it, but we seem to be so addicted to our current lifestyle that we would rather launch wars rather than face our internal issues. You blithely say if we put our minds to it, as if that were a simple thing. [ Hint: Minds have been put to it before. ] For your amusement, here are a few dates from history: November 7, 1973 President Nixon launches Project Independence, with the goal of achieving energy self-sufficiency by 1980. April 18, 1977 President Carter announces National Energy Plan in his first major energy speech. Goal is to reduce oil imports by 65%, and to reduce energy growth to 2%/year. March 17, 1987 President Reagan's Energy Security Report outlines the Nation's increasing dependence on foreign oil. February 20, 1991 President Bush presents the Department's National Energy Strategy to Congress and the American people. -- -- Marshall Marshall Clow Idio Software mailto:marshall;idio.com Hey! Who messed with my anti-paranoia shot?
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Globocops ride down women,injure female journalist.
1887 -- Police charge a crowd of unemployed protesters in Trafalgar Square, London, killing three arresting over 300. The Bloody Sunday incident was a turning point in British struggles for free speech rights. (Edward Bellamy a participant?) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Jcrane.htm Police attack protestors [Police defend use of force] [update from arrested activist] [latest update] [a differing viewpoint] Initial reports from the streets in Sydney indicate violent overreaction from the police force. Photo sequences [here] and [here] show police treatment of protestors. At last report 15 protestors had been arrested, with three naked protestors arrested for offensive behaviour. They had been drawing attention to the price women pay in war.[picture here] Some have noted that this behaviour is to be expected from extremists wearing full body armour who will be protecting extreme financiers of global domination - noting that some of the trade ministers attending the WTO mini ministerial are associated with extreme terror groups including the Colombian military, Indonesian Kopassus forces, the Russian 'Poison gas' Anti Chechen militia and the United States Army. The The Australian reports that a female reporter was also injured, suffering gashes and an abdominal injury. Protestors have been on the streets rallying against the WTO's pre ministerial meeting at Homebush where they will be discussing trade liberalisation in anticipation of next year's WTO meeting. They come at a crucial time with the Federal Government entering into negotiations over a free trade agreement with the USA in three months' time. [ The Australian coverage | ABC coverage | Latest photos ]
Neo-nationalist guerilla movements, terrorists, new-age mercenaries, pirates, people-smugglers and global crime syndicates.Oh my!
Alan Dupont: Modern wars can't be based on obsolete battle plans November 14, 2002 WE are on the cusp of a new, more dangerous and unpredictable era in global affairs that has profound implications for Australia's defence and national security. The tragedies of the Bali bombing and the World Trade Centre in New York are visible manifestations of a shift in the security paradigm that may prove, over time, as transformational as the Bolshevik revolution of 1917. The indiscriminate brutality of contemporary terrorism is only one aspect of a broader assault on the conventions that have governed international society for the past 100 years. The state-on-state conflicts of the 20th century are being replaced by hybrid wars and asymmetric contests in which there is no clear-cut distinction between soldiers and civilians and between organised violence, terror, crime and war. Preventing and managing Mad Max future wars requires new strategies and approaches. However, there is precious little evidence that the architects of our strategic policy have grasped this point. During the past few months, Defence Minister Robert Hill has questioned some of the underlying assumptions of the defence orthodoxy. He is right to do so because our strategy is firmly rooted in the past, having remained essentially unchanged since the Dibb review almost 20 years ago. The Dibb review's central premise, encapsulated in the Defence of Australia doctrine, is that protecting Australia against conventional military attack from a hostile state should determine the structure and capability of the Australian Defence Force. Traditionalists say that forces structured for the defence of Australia and its approaches can meet all the tasks asked of it by the government despite the unprecedented tempo and range of non-DOA activities and the repeated overseas deployment of the ADF. Given the dramatically different strategic circumstances we face, this position is intellectually bankrupt, politically untenable and operationally unsustainable. There is a serious mismatch between strategy, force structure and the emerging threats to Australia's security. What Australia needs is a strategy for the future, not the past, and a transformed ADF structured to manage the very different security challenges of the 21st century. As a crucial first step, we must rethink a defence strategy that has four significant failings: It is based on a misplaced geographical determinism that ignores the diverse and globalised nature of modern conflict. It has shaped the ADF for the wrong wars. It gives insufficient weight to the transnational threats that confront us. And it fails to recognise that modern defence forces must win the peace as well as the war. The key lesson here is that the ADF is not optimally configured or trained for today's threats, let alone those of tomorrow. While others restructure for the conflicts of the future, we, for the most part, remain wedded to strategic concepts that have long passed their use-by date. It is axiomatic that the ADF should be able to defend Australia against military attack. But DOA is too narrowly conceived and disconnected from the security challenges of the contemporary world to provide the necessary strategic guidance for an ADF in urgent need of transformation. It would be a mistake to characterise this call for strategic renewal as merely the latest incarnation of the longstanding debate between proponents of forward defence and continental defence. These tired old shibboleths reflect the linear thinking of a bygone era and shed little light on the essential defence and security problems for Australia in the 21st century. Deploying force beyond our immediate neighbourhood is perfectly consistent with the defence of Australia's vital interests and should not be construed as fighting someone else's war. But a force designed for state-on-state conflict will struggle to manage the multifarious security challenges posed by neo-nationalist guerilla movements, terrorists, new-age mercenaries, pirates, people-smugglers and global crime syndicates. Transformation is not a prescription for radical change. Neither does it mandate increased defence spending. Significant transformation can be achieved through a modest reordering of priorities and adjustments to existing programs within the existing budgetary framework. Transformation means that the ADF must acquire more high-value, niche capabilities and additional land forces equipped for a wide range of contingencies across the threat spectrum that can be dispatched rapidly, with adequate protection, sustainment and command and control. The ADF must be trained and configured for multifaceted tasks. And although advanced technology is essential, it must be usable and appropriate for the new wars as well as the old. Unfortunately, some of our existing systems fail this crucial test. Alan Dupont is director of the
UK's Strike Hard campaign and China's STASI mess with the market.
To treat the Magna Carta as if it were written on the back of a cereal packet. The ideas outlined in the UK in November, to remove the right to jury trials in some cases, to dispose of the right not to be tried for the same alleged crime twice in certain very serious areas, to permit previous convictions when relevant to be used in court, and even to allow hearsay evidence, smack of a desperate attempt to compensate for a dire arrest rate by driving up the number of guilty verdicts.TIME's today. Also from Raymond Snoddy.China's censors build the great internet firewall.(a deadtree article so far,will type up later...send a ratty professor a scanning pen!) ...few Chinese would have been able to read the BBC story that the Chinese government had asked financial authorities to keep stock prices on an upward trend to provide a positive atmosphere during the (Communist Parties) Congress... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,542-479496,00.html
cypherpunks@minder.net
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Hello - You get emails every day, offering to show you how to make money. Most of these emails are from people who are NOT making any money. And they expect you to listen to them? Enough. If you want to make money with your computer, then you should hook up with a group that is actually DOING it. We are making a large, continuing income every month. What's more - we will show YOU how to do the same thing. This business is done completely by internet and email, and you can even join for free to check it out first. If you can send an email, you can do this. No special skills are required. How much are we making? Anywhere from $2000 to $9000 per month. We are real people, and most of us work at this business part-time. But keep in mind, we do WORK at it - I am not going to insult your intelligence by saying you can sign up, do no work, and rake in the cash. That kind of job does not exist. But if you are willing to put in 10-12 hours per week, this might be just the thing you are looking for. This is not income that is determined by luck, or work that is done FOR you - it is all based on your effort. But, as I said, there are no special skills required. And this income is RESIDUAL - meaning that it continues each month (and it tends to increase each month also). Interested? I invite you to find out more. You can get in as a free member, at no cost, and no obligation to continue if you decide it is not for you. We are just looking for people who still have that burning desire to find an opportunity that will reward them incredibly well, if they work at it. To grab a FREE ID#, simply reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and in the body of the email, write this phrase: Grab me a free membership! Be sure to include your: 1. First name 2. Last name 3. Email address (if different from above) 4. By submitting a request for a FREE DHS Club Membership, I agree to accept email from the DHS Club for both their consumer and business opportunities. We will confirm your position and send you a special report as soon as possible, and also Your free Member Number. That's all there's to it. We'll then send you info, and you can make up your own mind. Looking forward to hearing from you! Sincerely, Michael Olsson P.S. After having several negative experiences with network marketing companies I had pretty much given up on them. This is different - there is value, integrity, and a REAL opportunity to have your own home-based business... and finally make real money on the internet. Don't pass this up..you can sign up and test-drive the program for FREE. All you need to do is get your free membership. Unsubscribing: Send a blank email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for residents of the state of Washington, and screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. If you are Washington resident or otherwise wish to be removed from this list, just follow the removal instructions above. 4253XMcV9-087eRrH0286vtVm0-221Rufl0387DjJg1-530hpCy6916eyBy6-582tTBK8599qsEa7-1l74
Re: Codetalking in the South Pacific?
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 12:46 PM, Tyler Durden wrote: Oh yeah, another thing I wanted to ask about, before I forget. It's somewhat well-known that throughout the South pacific, there are radio stations that do nothing but broadcast the real-time reading of number sequences, but no one seems to know just why. And these number sequences do not seem to be recordings...every station has a different voice, and the number sequences never repeat. So it would seem that they are being read in real time by natives employed at various islands. Anyone know what the heck those things are? There's actually a 3-CD collection available of the number broadcasts. Numbers stations are not of much interest for our concerns, for the same reason we are not a cryptanalysis/hobby cipher group. There are many Web resources on numbers stations, and probaby stuff in Codebreakers. Also, Bamford. And the South Pacific is not even where these numbers stations are usually associated with. There's a large transmitter near Warrenton, VA (coincidentally near the CIA's Farm, not too far from the Weather Mountain installation, and of course part of the original Army Security Agency). (I'm not trying to discourage interest or discussion, just noting that crypto in general has a huge lore, many books...and most of them have nothing to do with the postmodern stuff of primary interest to us.) --Tim May
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote: Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!) It's full of nut cases too :-) I have not, however, heretofore considered that there could exist systems that had some form of completeness built in. My intuition (which is easily wrong) tells me that no such system could ever be useful in the real world, but who the heck knows? All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) I've wondered about that...I suspect that if God exists, then He is true but unprovable in any useful system! -TD PS: According to Godel's biographer, Godel at one point passed around a proof of the existence of God! (But towards the end of his life he also started wearing a surgical mask everywhere and became intensely germaphobic...) From: Mike Rosing [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:26:02 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote: Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!) It's full of nut cases too :-) I have not, however, heretofore considered that there could exist systems that had some form of completeness built in. My intuition (which is easily wrong) tells me that no such system could ever be useful in the real world, but who the heck knows? All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Jim Choate wrote:
What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of
para-consistent logic as well
And I replied:
No. There are consistent systems, and complete systems, that do not admit
Godel's theorem, but apparently not a system that is both (although even the
last is subject to dispute, and problems of definition).
Sorry, that was a little terse, and just a restatement of Godel. Slightly
drunk.
One way of looking at it is that Godel's theorem only applies in systems
that allow counting according to Peano arithmetic*.
However you can have eg arithmetics without Peano counting, and so on, and
there are (trivial according to Godel, but even he acknowledged that they
exist) systems that are both complete (all problems have answers) and
consistent (no statement is both true and false).
Or, to put it in another and possibly simpler way, if you limit the axioms
in a system in such a way that statements about statements are impossible to
formulate, then Godel doesn't apply.
Can you do interesting things in such systems? Yes. But you tend to leave
intuition behind.
-- Peter Fairbrother
*{axioms: assume Natural numbers, no 0 [can be stated in other ways, that's
original Peano], an add-one function exists, such that if x-add-one =
y-add-one then x=y, and an induction axiom showing there are infinite
numbers: applying Dedekind logic gives ax + ay = a(x+y) and so on, known as
Peano Arithmetic, which is basically ordinary arithmetic in Natural numbers
only, ie no subtraction, division etc}
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
The Yodel does not have a web site where yodels can be converted into some other form of money, and other forms of money converted into Yodels. Instead it has an IIRC bot. Use of this bot is described at http://yodel.deep-ice.com/bankbot.html This means a command line interface, to do banking transactions. This of course greatly reduced the work required to implement the Yodel, but will greatly limit the acceptability of the Yodel.
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 09:12 AM, Tyler Durden wrote: All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) I've wondered about that...I suspect that if God exists, then He is true but unprovable in any useful system! -TD PS: According to Godel's biographer, Godel at one point passed around a proof of the existence of God! (But towards the end of his life he also started wearing a surgical mask everywhere and became intensely germaphobic...) There are a lot of Godel anecdotes to tell. I never met him. Two things about his theory: 1. There's a more powerful (IMNSHO) formulation of it in terms of algorithmic information theory, usually associated with Greg Chaitin but also drawing on the AIT work of Kolmogorov and others. This says, in informal language, no theory can describe something more complicated than itself. If a theory has 20 bits of complexity, things of 21 bits or more just can't be described/proved. Rudy Rucker has a good description of this in his excellent book Mind Tools. And Chaitin has authored several books and a few very readable Scientific American types of articles. Google will have more on his sites, his papers. 2. This said, my point about not looking to Godelian undecidability sorts of issues for crypto is that it just appears to be too far out there. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever found a way to make such things useful in crypto...not even things like Presburger arithmetic, which is harder than NP-complete but not yet Godelian undecideable. (One semi-joke is that Godel's results are something every mathematician should learn about but that no working mathematician will ever actually need to use.) --Tim May
Emergency Coercive Unit
a) Those friggin' war-posters are hilarious. b) Downstairs and across the street in front of Starbucks I just saw two NYC cops holding what looked like AK-47s...on their backs it said Emergency Coercive Unit. _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!) When we say complete, are we talking about completeness in the Godelian sense? According to Godel, and formal system (except for the possibility of the oddballs mentioned below--I hadn't heard of this possibility) is incomplete in that there will exist true statements that can not be proven given the axioms of that system. This does not have to be anything complex...a statement like 2+2=4 in some systems may be obviously true, but there's no way to get there given the other axioms in the system. This statement must then be added to the axiom list. After that (old axioms +(the 2+2=4 axiom)), we now have a new formal system, and there will (not might!) exist another statement that is true but unprovable, and so on. In a sense, then, no system is ever complete. As for the nature of the system in which Godelian Incompleteness applies, I'm not enough of a number theorist to remember. BUT...in Turing terms I know that any system that is equivalent to a Turing Machine will have the Incompleteness property. (In addition, Godelian Provability is equivalent, I think, to the Turing Halting Problem. Statements that are true but unprovable will never halt...correct?)In other words, any system that can be used for useful computation will suffer from incompletenenss, so I would assume para-consistent logic would fall under that category (is that similar to fuzzy logic?). I have not, however, heretofore considered that there could exist systems that had some form of completeness built in. My intuition (which is easily wrong) tells me that no such system could ever be useful in the real world, but who the heck knows? From: Jim Choate [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:27:44 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote: Jim Choate wrote: What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of para-consistent logic as well And I replied: No. There are consistent systems, and complete systems, that do not admit Godel's theorem, but apparently not a system that is both (although even the last is subject to dispute, and problems of definition). Which is the point of Godel's, you're arguing in circles here son. Perhaps you've been out in the sun too long ;) [SSZ: text deleted] However you can have eg arithmetics without Peano counting, and so on, and there are (trivial according to Godel, but even he acknowledged that they exist) systems that are both complete (all problems have answers) and consistent (no statement is both true and false). [SSZ: text deleted] Can you do interesting things in such systems? Yes. But you tend to leave intuition behind. What the hell does 'counting' have to do with para-consistent logic on this? Extraordinary claims... Para-consistent logic is logic where statements -can't by definition- be given an absolute true/false, in fact para-consistent logic allows axiomatic statements that are in direct conflict. The 'para' comes from 'paradox'. Considering the state of the real world I doubt you'd leave very much 'intuition behind' by moving to a para-consistent model. The answer of course is Yes, Godel's applies to Para-Consistent Logic. Irrespective of whatever logic you wish to use, it will be sensitive to Godel's because Godel's is a sort of halting theorem that says that with respect to decidability you can't devise an algorithm in any language or representation that will -guarentee- and answer to the question of whether a particular question has an answer. Godel's applies irrespective of the contents of any given system, paradoxical or consistent be damned. What really matters is the 'complete', not the 'consistent'. Godel's doesn't apply to incomplete systems because by definition there are statements which can be made which can't be expressed, otherwise it would be complete. You can't prove something if you can't express it since there is no way to get the machine to 'hold' it to work on it. -- We don't see things as they are, [EMAIL PROTECTED] we see them as we are. www.ssz.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anais Nin www.open-forge.org _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Emergency Coercive Unit
At 10:59 -0500 on 11/13/02, Tyler Durden wrote: b) Downstairs and across the street in front of Starbucks I just saw two NYC cops holding what looked like AK-47s...on their backs it said Emergency Coercive Unit. I always knew New York was full of commie bastards. I thought they were smart enough to hide themselves behind good capitalist weapons. Like an AR-15 or an MP-5. 3 -- _ Kevin Elliott mailto:kelliott;mac.com ICQ#23758827
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Jim Choate wrote: What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of para-consistent logic as well It applies to any sufficiently complex axiomatic system. Allegedly. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff
Re: CDR: Re: Codetalking in the South Pacific?
The ones we used to hear on the shortwave in Europe were enciphered transmissions to agents from their controllers. Most of the numbers broadcasts originated in the East Bloc, but there's no reason to suppose that the West didn't use them for agent communications as well. At least in the Russians' case, the cipher keys were one-time pads issued to the agents in personal meetings or through dead drops - a key element of vulnerability in their networks. Marc de Piolenc Tyler Durden wrote: Oh yeah, another thing I wanted to ask about, before I forget. It's somewhat well-known that throughout the South pacific, there are radio stations that do nothing but broadcast the real-time reading of number sequences, but no one seems to know just why.
Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
Hmm, interesting -- how come the original of this came never came thru lne.com? And I think there's been at least a couple of others lately that I only saw in someone quote -- wasn't 100% sure about them, but I am this one. Gary Jeffers writes: The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing? The beneficiaries of this war are: 1. United State: 2. Corporations, connected. 3. The ruling elite families. 4. The Zionists. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources. - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or rich Americans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein? Can't answer that directly, aside from pointing out that theUS is largely responsible for Hussein's rise to power. I could be argued that oil in our hands has created many a Saddam. Aside from this is the issue of continued American dependence on oil, a dependence that could be greatly reduced if we put our minds to it, but we seem to be so addicted to our current lifestyle that we would rather launch wars rather than face our internal issues. Anyone guess where's Waldo (Osama) now? My guess he's on the end of a bungee being kicked into Iraq right now! (The other end of the bungee is in a US chopper!) From: Nomen Nescio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:10:13 +0100 (CET) Gary Jeffers writes: The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing? The beneficiaries of this war are: 1. United State: 2. Corporations, connected. 3. The ruling elite families. 4. The Zionists. Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above would do better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise, initiative and enlightenment in the world today. What is the alternative? Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place with someone like him controlling Iraqi oil? He's no better than any of the groups above. He took power by force and rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections - 100% of the vote was supposedly for Hussein! What a joke. How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or rich Americans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein? A 21st century where democratic, liberal Western democracies control the world will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards, repressive, religious ideologies like Islam dominate. The mere fact that you feel free to criticize the U.S., but would never go to Iraq and criticize Hussein just proves the point. Sure, freedom of speech is not absolute in the U.S., and the degree of protection has fluctuated; during WWI people were sent to jail for criticizing the draft, but we're nowhere near that point now. But these freedoms are non-existant in Iraq, China, and other countries which are the real threat to peace and freedom in the coming decades. Look at http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=3235 which describes a case in neighboring Iran where a respected academic was sentenced to DEATH for saying that Muslims should not blindly obey the Imams. These are the forces which are trying to assert their dominance over the world as we move into this new century. We either stand by and let it happen, condemning future generations to lives of suffering, poverty and ignorance, or we take steps to stop it, defending Western culture and its ideals of freedom. That's what's really at stake here. We're fighting over which ideology will control the world. And yes, oil is a potent weapon in this struggle. Leaving those vast oil resources in the hands of conservative Muslims would be a huge mistake from the perspective of this decades-long war. So let's agree with Gary Jeffers: Beat State! But the state we must beat is the state of religious persecution and dictatorship practiced by Hussein. If we hold all states to the same standard instead of heaping criticism only on one, we will see that Iraq is far more deserving of condemnation than most. Their government deserves to be beaten, to be destroyed. It would be the finest gift we could give to the Iraqi people. _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
Gary Jeffers writes: The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing? The beneficiaries of this war are: 1. United State: 2. Corporations, connected. 3. The ruling elite families. 4. The Zionists. Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above would do better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise, initiative and enlightenment in the world today. What is the alternative? Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place with someone like him controlling Iraqi oil? He's no better than any of the groups above. He took power by force and rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections - 100% of the vote was supposedly for Hussein! What a joke. How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or rich Americans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein? A 21st century where democratic, liberal Western democracies control the world will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards, repressive, religious ideologies like Islam dominate. The mere fact that you feel free to criticize the U.S., but would never go to Iraq and criticize Hussein just proves the point. Sure, freedom of speech is not absolute in the U.S., and the degree of protection has fluctuated; during WWI people were sent to jail for criticizing the draft, but we're nowhere near that point now. But these freedoms are non-existant in Iraq, China, and other countries which are the real threat to peace and freedom in the coming decades. Look at http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=3235 which describes a case in neighboring Iran where a respected academic was sentenced to DEATH for saying that Muslims should not blindly obey the Imams. These are the forces which are trying to assert their dominance over the world as we move into this new century. We either stand by and let it happen, condemning future generations to lives of suffering, poverty and ignorance, or we take steps to stop it, defending Western culture and its ideals of freedom. That's what's really at stake here. We're fighting over which ideology will control the world. And yes, oil is a potent weapon in this struggle. Leaving those vast oil resources in the hands of conservative Muslims would be a huge mistake from the perspective of this decades-long war. So let's agree with Gary Jeffers: Beat State! But the state we must beat is the state of religious persecution and dictatorship practiced by Hussein. If we hold all states to the same standard instead of heaping criticism only on one, we will see that Iraq is far more deserving of condemnation than most. Their government deserves to be beaten, to be destroyed. It would be the finest gift we could give to the Iraqi people.
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote: Jim Choate wrote: What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of para-consistent logic as well And I replied: No. There are consistent systems, and complete systems, that do not admit Godel's theorem, but apparently not a system that is both (although even the last is subject to dispute, and problems of definition). Which is the point of Godel's, you're arguing in circles here son. Perhaps you've been out in the sun too long ;) [SSZ: text deleted] However you can have eg arithmetics without Peano counting, and so on, and there are (trivial according to Godel, but even he acknowledged that they exist) systems that are both complete (all problems have answers) and consistent (no statement is both true and false). [SSZ: text deleted] Can you do interesting things in such systems? Yes. But you tend to leave intuition behind. What the hell does 'counting' have to do with para-consistent logic on this? Extraordinary claims... Para-consistent logic is logic where statements -can't by definition- be given an absolute true/false, in fact para-consistent logic allows axiomatic statements that are in direct conflict. The 'para' comes from 'paradox'. Considering the state of the real world I doubt you'd leave very much 'intuition behind' by moving to a para-consistent model. The answer of course is Yes, Godel's applies to Para-Consistent Logic. Irrespective of whatever logic you wish to use, it will be sensitive to Godel's because Godel's is a sort of halting theorem that says that with respect to decidability you can't devise an algorithm in any language or representation that will -guarentee- and answer to the question of whether a particular question has an answer. Godel's applies irrespective of the contents of any given system, paradoxical or consistent be damned. What really matters is the 'complete', not the 'consistent'. Godel's doesn't apply to incomplete systems because by definition there are statements which can be made which can't be expressed, otherwise it would be complete. You can't prove something if you can't express it since there is no way to get the machine to 'hold' it to work on it. -- We don't see things as they are, [EMAIL PROTECTED] we see them as we are. www.ssz.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anais Nin www.open-forge.org
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
From: Tyler Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:12:34 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) I've wondered about that...I suspect that if God exists, then He is true but unprovable in any useful system! -TD That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then there's no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious beliefs; and if anything can be proven false, then there's no god, and religion is crushed under the heel of reason. Hurrah, Enlightenment! ~~SAM PS: According to Godel's biographer, Godel at one point passed around a proof of the existence of God! (But towards the end of his life he also started wearing a surgical mask everywhere and became intensely germaphobic...) From: Mike Rosing [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:26:02 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote: Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!) It's full of nut cases too :-) I have not, however, heretofore considered that there could exist systems that had some form of completeness built in. My intuition (which is easily wrong) tells me that no such system could ever be useful in the real world, but who the heck knows? All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful, but I'm not sure it classifies as the real world. :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote: That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then there's no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious beliefs; and if anything can be proven false, then there's no god, and religion is crushed under the heel of reason. Hurrah, Enlightenment! ~SAM Don't bet on it. I was in a discussion group a week or so ago and one lady who is super devout (of some christian sect, I'm not really sure which one) claimed that she was always testing her faith every day. It really shook me up because I have faith in testing. Religion and reason are not in the same universe! My favorite response on the subject of god is I have no need of that hypothisis. I forget who it's attributed to, but I think it was from the late 1800's. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 03:10:13AM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: Gary Jeffers writes: The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing? The beneficiaries of this war are: 1. United State: 2. Corporations, connected. 3. The ruling elite families. 4. The Zionists. Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above would do better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise, initiative and enlightenment in the world today. What is the alternative? Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place with someone like him controlling Iraqi oil? Right, and I can do better things with your money than you can, so why shouldn't I just kill you and take it? He's no better than any of the groups above. He took power by force and rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections - 100% of the vote was supposedly for Hussein! What a joke. How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or rich Americans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein? I don't see that Saddam is any less moral than Dubbya and Asscruft. A 21st century where democratic, liberal Western democracies control the world will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards, repressive, religious ideologies like Islam dominate. A far better idea is for the UN to invade the US, depose it's evil, warmongering leader, destroy all the WOMD, and free the oppressed populace. (rest of absurd rant snipped) -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources. - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne
[ I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but there might be someone out there who could benefit from this. ] Tyler Durden wrote: Aside from this is the issue of continued American dependence on oil, a dependence that could be greatly reduced if we put our minds to it, but we seem to be so addicted to our current lifestyle that we would rather launch wars rather than face our internal issues. You blithely say if we put our minds to it, as if that were a simple thing. [ Hint: Minds have been put to it before. ] For your amusement, here are a few dates from history: November 7, 1973 President Nixon launches Project Independence, with the goal of achieving energy self-sufficiency by 1980. April 18, 1977 President Carter announces National Energy Plan in his first major energy speech. Goal is to reduce oil imports by 65%, and to reduce energy growth to 2%/year. March 17, 1987 President Reagan's Energy Security Report outlines the Nation's increasing dependence on foreign oil. February 20, 1991 President Bush presents the Department's National Energy Strategy to Congress and the American people. -- -- Marshall Marshall Clow Idio Software mailto:marshall;idio.com Hey! Who messed with my anti-paranoia shot?
