Columbia Was Beyond Any Help, Officials Say

[R. A. Hettinga]

Speak of the devil...

Cheers,
RAH
---

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/04/national/04OPTI.html?ei=5062&en=f65800eae403a700&ex=1045026000&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=bottom


February
4, 2003 

Columbia Was Beyond Any Help, Officials Say 
By KENNETH CHANG



HOUSTON, Feb. 3 - Even if flight controllers had known for certain that
protective heat tiles on the underside of the space shuttle had sustained
severe damage at launching, little or nothing could have been done to
address the problem, NASA officials say. 

Virtually since the hour
Columbia went down, the space agency has been peppered with possible
options for repairing the damage or getting the crew down safely. But in
each case, officials here and at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida say,
the proposed solution would not have worked. 

The simplest would have been
to abort the mission the moment the damage was discovered. In case of an
engine malfunction or other serious problem at launching, a space shuttle
can jettison its solid rocket boosters and the external fuel tank, shut
down its own engines and glide back down, either returning to the Kennedy
Space Center or an emergency landing site in Spain or Morocco. 

But no one
even knew that a piece of insulation from the external tank had hit the
orbiter until a frame-by-frame review of videotape of the launching was
undertaken the next day. By then, Columbia was already in orbit, and
re-entry would have posed the same danger that it did 16 days later. 

Four
other possibilities have been discussed at briefings or in interviews since
the loss of Columbia, and rejected one by one by NASA officials. 

First,
repairing the damaged tiles. The crew had no tools for such a repair. At a
news conference on Sunday, Ron D. Dittemore, the shuttle program manager,
said that early in the shuttle program, NASA considered developing a tile
repair kit, but that "we just didn't believe it was feasible at the time."
He added that a crew member climbing along the underside of the shuttle
could cause even more damage to the tiles. 

Another idea, widely
circulated on the Internet in the last few days, was that the shuttle could
have docked with the International Space Station once the damage was
discovered. But without the external fuel tank, dropped as usual after
launching, Columbia had no fuel for its main engines and thus no way it
could propel itself to the station, which circles the earth on a different
orbit at a higher altitude. 

"We have nowhere near the fuel needed to get
there," said Bruce Buckingham, a spokesman at the Kennedy Space Center.


Another shuttle, Atlantis, was scheduled for launching on March 1 to
carry supplies and a new crew to the space station, and it is possible to
imagine a Hollywood-type series of events in which NASA rushed Atlantis to
the launching pad, sent it up with a minimal crew of two, had it rendezvous
with Columbia in space and brought everyone down safely. 

But Atlantis is
still in its hangar, and to rush it to launching would have required NASA
to circumvent most of its safety measures. "It takes about three weeks, at
our best effort, to prepare the shuttle for launch once we're at the pad,"
Mr. Buckingham said, "and we're not even at the pad." Further, Columbia had
enough oxygen, supplies and fuel (for its thrusters only) to remain in
orbit for only five more days, said Patrick Ryan, a spokesman at the
Johnson Space Center here. 

Finally, there is the notion that Columbia's
re-entry might have been altered in some way to protect its damaged area.
But Mr. Dittemore said the shuttle's descent path was already designed to
keep temperatures as low as possible. "Because I'm reusing this vehicle
over and over again, so I'm trying to send it through an environment that
minimizes the wear and tear on the structure and the tile," he said at his
news conference on Sunday. 

Today he added that he did not know of a way
for the shuttle to re-enter so that most of the heat would be absorbed by
tiles that were not damaged, on its right wing. "I'm not aware of any other
scenarios, any other techniques, that would have allowed me to favor one
wing over the other," he said. 

Even if that had been possible, it would
probably have damaged the shuttle beyond repair and made it impossible to
land, requiring the crew to parachute out at high speed and at high
altitude. He said there was no way managers could have gotten information
about the damaged tiles that would have warranted so drastic a move. 

Gene
Kranz, the flight director who orchestrated the rescue of astronauts aboard
the crippled Apollo 13 in 1970, said that from what he knew about the
suspected tile damage, there was probably nothing that could have been done
to save the flight. "The options," he said in a telephone interview, "were
just nonexistent." 


-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
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Re: Say goodbye to the ISS

[R. A. Hettinga]

Our messages crossed in the mail, but there's this bit here...

At 7:18 PM -0800 on 2/3/03, Tim May wrote:

> Two crewmen
> were prepared to to an EVA to fix dislodged cargo/hatch doors, as on
> every flight to date. The other crew could have transferred in their
> pressure suits.

Ah. Forgot about the pressure suits. Doh.

Cheers,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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<>

Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[R. A. Hettinga]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At 6:21 PM -0800 on 2/3/03, Tim May wrote:


> Or,
> with about 10 days of advance notice, Atlantis could have been
> ready for launch and rendezvous to take the crew off, and perhaps
> even to transfer fuel to let Columbia go into a higher parking
> orbit until repairs could be arranged.

Really?

My understanding is that launches are planned so far in advance, and
the events required to do so are so tightly coupled they wouldn't
have had a chance even if they'd *had* that kind of running room.
Just asking, not disputing, here. So, here we go, googling "atlantis
rescue mission columbia" doesn't get any recent hits... Ah. Here's
*one*, in news.google.com, of course :



>> Q: Were there any rescue options available for the crew?
>>
>> A: Columbia had enough fuel and oxygen to stay in orbit several
>> more days, perhaps a week or more with careful management. The
>> shuttle Atlantis was being readied for a March 1 launch from Cape
>> Canaveral, and could possibly have been ready for an emergency
>> mission in a week or two.
>>
>> "If the problem had been detected at the beginning of the mission
>> and you could get some extra life support up there earlier, they
>> might have been able to wait it out," said MIT science and
>> technology professor Ted Postol. "It would be difficult, but it
>> doesn't sound impossible."
>>
>> Q: Could Columbia have sought refuge at the international space
>> station?
>>
>> A: The shuttle didn't have a docking device to visit the station
>> or enough fuel to reach the station, which orbits 30 miles higher
>> than the path taken by Columbia. However, the station does have an
>> airlock that its astronauts can use for space walks, and some
>> tethered escape attempt might have been made had the shuttle
>> gotten there.
>>
>> Q: What rescue resources could the Russian space program have
>> offered if the danger had been recognized?
>>
>> A: The Russians have two Soyuz space capsules, each able to carry
>> just three people, ready to fly, and those craft have no equipment
>> to connect to the shuttle.

Which gives the lie to the idea that Columbia was in a higher
*altitude* orbit than the space station, which is what I had thought
I had heard, but was in a higher *inclination* orbit, which was
obvious, of course, by its flight path.


Columbia is the only shuttle not actually capable of docking with the
ISS to begin with, and that's why they freed it up for this mission.
.

They were talking about putting it into mothballs a few years ago
when money was tight.

And, of course, somewhere in my google-walking, I came across the
fact that Reagan issued an Executive Order in 1986 forbidding any
primary shuttle mission to be commercial, which is about when I
pulled the plug on about 7 years of my life, and corresponding
financial resources...

Same shit, etc...

Cheers,
RAH


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-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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The Statism Meme

[Tim May]

OK, so I watch a lot of t.v., or at least have t.v. dramas on a lot.

I'm struck by how many of them this year treat civil liberties as gone, 
either as old-fashioned or as just plain ignorable.

* On the episodes of "Law and Order" (three different versions weekly, 
often repeated on other nights), the cops routinely roust citizens, 
shop owners, hotel clerks, etc. Warrants are the exception, and when 
they are produced, they are merely waved in front of the targets. 
Whether this represents reality is not the point--the point is that the 
Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments are treated as technicalities to be 
violated at will. Cops, prosecutors, and judges violating the 
Constitution are not sanctioned.  Those being violated never fight 
back, whether with shotguns or their own lawyers.

* I just watched a new series called "Miracles." A planeload of 
passengers is held without charges, without arrest warrants. One 
passenger is simply taken away by the NSA because he may have 
information of use to them someday. Again, maybe not plausible, but 
this shows the meme Americans are becoming conditioned to accept.

* On one often execrable show called "Judging Amy," "Child Protection" 
workers are shown bursting into homes and apartments, sans warrants of 
course. One memorable line was "Yes, we can enter your home without a 
warrant...because we're not the police."

* Even t.v. commercials are spreading the meme that Big Brother is our 
friend. G.E. has one such commercial where doctors are told: "Wouldn't 
it be wonderful if you could just type in a name and see every medical 
treatment your patient has ever received?...with G.E.'s new software, 
you'll be able to." (paraphrase of their actual commercial)

* "Hate speech" is presented on these cop and lawyer shows as being 
ipso facto illegal. "These people think the Constitution gives them the 
freedom to spew hate."

* Nearly all of the programs present the Internet as a place which 
needs government control. The lawyers and cops editorialize (actually, 
the script writers, of course) about how the "Wild West" atmosphere is 
a haven for terrorists, gun nuts, pornographers, and Islamic militants. 
Various plots on the court shows have involved ISPs being forced to spy 
on customers.

* "9/11 changed everything" is heard at least weekly. The judges cite 
it to justify unconstitutional measures, the prosecutors use it to 
justify warrantless searches and coerced admissions.

Yes, I understand this is all fiction. Well, some of the scripts are 
based on actual events, including coerced confessions, warrantless 
searches, "sneak and peek" wiretaps, concentration camps in Cuba, etc. 
That so many of these popular programs have themes as I've described 
tells us what to expect.

The statism meme is growing under hothouse conditions.


--Tim May, Corralitos, California
Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; 
perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." 
--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty.

Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 06:21 PM 2/3/03 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>
>Had the landing gone OK, we would have been hearing about how NASA had
>verified that little damage had occurred.
>
>Now, it's "we didn't have a chance to look, but even if we had, there
>was nothing anyone could do, so we didn't look."

One wonders whether various large-aperature terrestrial
'scopes could have / did any surveillance / inspection.

(However, I don't even know which side of the bird normally
faces Earth ---black side or cargo side.)

NASA's inability to change a flat on a roadtrip is really remarkable.

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Re: Say goodbye to the ISS

[Tim May]

On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 06:17  PM, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

Flying another shuttle to them while people were still alive would
have been impossible, of course, so much for a reusable "space-truck"
on a rapid turnaround, and, even if it wasn't, I don't think they
even have an airlock aboard


Incorrect. NASA estimates that Atlantis could have been rushed to 
launch in 10 days. So, had they initiated the inspection early enough, 
time enough for a rendezvous.

As for there not being an airlock aboard, this is silly. Two crewmen 
were prepared to to an EVA to fix dislodged cargo/hatch doors, as on 
every flight to date. The other crew could have transferred in their 
pressure suits.

--Tim May

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Re: CDR: Re: Carter's statement yesterday

[Mike Rosing]

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Alif The Terrible wrote:

> Yeah, like I would trust Colin Powell on *anything*.  Remember, this is the
> same guy who denied that My Lai had happened, issuing a public statement that
> "relations between the United States and the South Vietnamese are excellent".
>

Nepotism seems to be the order of the day here too.  Powell's son Michael
Powell is head of the FCC.  So not only can he lie, he can be sure nobody
will challenge it in the US or lose their license to broadcast.
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Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[Mike Rosing]

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>   Yeah, but most pilots, if they suspected an even semi-serious breach of their
> craft's integrity, *AND* had the ability to fairly safely send someone outside
> to have a looksee, wouldn't hesitate a moment before doing so. They've been
> delayed by weather in landing far longer than that would take.

I heard this afternoon on NPR that NASA reported one of the engines was on
full blast attempting to correct for high drag on the left side.  Add this
to the high wheel temp before sensor loss - the landing gear was down.
The Columbia had just gotten the new "glass cockpit", all new computers.
I bet there was a bug in the code someplace that lowered the landing gear
and didn't report it via normal channels.  On an airplane lowering your
landing gear early isn't that big a deal.  But at mach 18 it's pretty
serious.

No way to inspect for that when your instruments don't report what your
equipment is doing.  I bet it's a combination of minor problems, with a
bit in a rom going bad maybe.  As the Major said, chalk one up for Allah.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike

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Re: Say goodbye to the ISS

[R. A. Hettinga]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At 9:42 PM + on 1/19/03, Malcolm Carlock wrote:


> I must admit it also seems very strange that the shuttle couldn't
> have been examined while docked to the ISS.

It wasn't docked there.

It was in a completely different orbit, and higher up to boot. That's
why it came over the Western United States on landing, instead of
over, I believe, places like Cancun and the Gulf of Mexico.

It's also why people were saying they would have been SOL no matter
what happened, and why, if you're conspiracy- -- and bloody- --
minded, it's easy to imagine that someone higher up in NASA figured
that they were, "heh, cooked, anyway", and decided to stand back and
see if a miracle happened. Of course, that probably didn't happen
(invoking Pournelle's Law), and, besides, if they *were* that
bloody-minded, they would have left it *up* there for an eventual
repair and body-recovery mission, sometime in the future. [If you
don't think they wouldn't have, "memorial" or not, remember that two
people *died* in the Columbia already, in the wrong place, the cargo
bay, at the wrong time, while they were pressurizing it with nitrogen
during a mock-launch rehearsal before its inaugural launch.]

Flying another shuttle to them while people were still alive would
have been impossible, of course, so much for a reusable "space-truck"
on a rapid turnaround, and, even if it wasn't, I don't think they
even have an airlock aboard, and, given the cost of the gold-plated
one on the ISS, they probably can't afford one on the ground, either.

In other words, when you fly on Uncle's Nickle, you pays the tax
payer's money, and you takes your chances.


Of course, if we'd actually *privatized* space (not had a
single-payer HillarySpace program, which is the case now, even though
most of the shuttle program is currently "privatized" -- in the same
way that the California power market is "privatized"), like back in
the Nixon administration sometime, when he drew a red-line through
NASA's budget the first time because it was leftover Kennedy-cruft
that was embarrassing him politically, and made stuff like liquid
rocket fuel legal to own (wasn't it someone here, or elsewhere, who
said maybe we should sue to make very-high-powered rocketry a
constitutional right under second amendment? :-)), among other
things, there probably would have been *50* re-entries, or maybe 100,
today -- and just that many launches. Today's crash, if it had
happened at all, would have been lost in the radar clutter, to be
completely brutal about it, and it would have been buried in the
place where articles about 7 dead marines at Quantico -- or, more
likely 7 dead skiers in the Bugaboos -- go.


Oh, well. Maybe China will finally collapse already and some
entrepreneur in New Shanghai establish a colony in the Belt someday.

Too bad I'll be too old to learn Chinese when it happens.

Cheers,
RAH
Who gave up on any illusions of there ever being an American private
space industry in his lifetime -- or any career plans in that regard
- -- shortly after the Challenger blew up and a bunch of government
employees cancelled *all* manned space flight indefinitely. Same
shit, different decade...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 8.0 - not licensed for commercial use: www.pgp.com

iQA/AwUBPj8insPxH8jf3ohaEQLODACcDofKm9BtBVOQdGq/lCK9Topwt/YAoOdk
NDdomx/bnf0ALLWNuJc13b0p
=JY//
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-- 
-
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The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Placing Backdoors Through Firewalls

[Steve Schear]

http://www.thehackerschoice.com/papers/fw-backd.htm


"Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be 
fooled."
-- Richard P. Feynman

Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[Tim May]

On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 03:01  PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:


The biggest question there is why didn't they inspect it? Seems 
very
bizarre, since that's what they did in the past.

That's what they _reported_ later that they did in the past...there 
certainly was no public announcement that Keyhole satellites were being 
tasked to look at the shuttle tiles.

One might assume that they did in fact look at the tiles this time 
around, noted the damage, reported to Admiral Poindexter the "toast" 
conclusion, and  that was that.

Had the landing gone OK, we would have been hearing about how NASA had 
verified that little damage had occurred.

Now, it's "we didn't have a chance to look, but even if we had, there 
was nothing anyone could do, so we didn't look."

(Of course, there is _much_ they could have done, including coming in 
at a more westerly landing site, either Edwards or White Sands. Or, 
with about 10 days of advance notice, Atlantis could have been ready 
for launch and rendezvous to take the crew off, and perhaps even to 
transfer fuel to let Columbia go into a higher parking orbit until 
repairs could be arranged.)

But the ostrich was strutting and now NASA is dying.

--Tim May
"Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David 
Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11

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Re: CDR: Re: Carter's statement yesterday

[Alif The Terrible]

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>   Thanks, I found the full text at
> http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/0203/01carter.html
>   I must have been trying too early before, all I could find was partial quotes.


"The world will be awaiting Wednesday's presentation of
specific evidence by Secretary of State Colin Powell 
concerning Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction."

Yeah, like I would trust Colin Powell on *anything*.  Remember, this is the
same guy who denied that My Lai had happened, issuing a public statement that
"relations between the United States and the South Vietnamese are excellent".



 -- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: Passenger rail is for adventurers and bums

[Tyler Durden]

"That's redundant in the modern US. Too bad; there needs to be a
counterbalance to the right-wing control freaks, but the left just
isn't up to it."

Good comment. Indeed, the only thing the Democrats seem to stand for is that 
they aren't republicans. Meanwhile, the economics of the 'real' left leaves 
them with a big fat credibility hole right in the center, so no one listens 
to their politics either.

-TD







From: Steve Furlong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Passenger rail is for adventurers and bums
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:31:03 -0500

On Friday 31 January 2003 12:40, Tim May wrote:
> On Friday, January 31, 2003, at 07:58  AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
(snipped)

> I understand your politics is lefty...this has been shining through
> for years.
>
> But your analytical skills are lacking.

That's redundant in the modern US. Too bad; there needs to be a
counterbalance to the right-wing control freaks, but the left just
isn't up to it.

--
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel

You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged.
--Michael Shirley



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Re: CDR: Re: Life Sentence for Medical Marijuana?

[Alif The Terrible]

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Ken Brown wrote:

> Tyler Durden wrote:
> 
> > And then there's the PERSISTENT rumors of him actually taking an accidental
> > DEA bust in a Florida airport after landing a fresh new cargo. Supposedly
> > this was a bit of a snafu and they had to let him go on the hush-hush...(And
> > I keep hearing there's video of that bust.)
> 
> 
> Oh, PERSISTENT rumours eh?  So they must be true. The TRANSIENT sort are
> just a pack of lies.

Valid point.  Besides, this guy has done enough things that have been
*verified*, that no mere rumor is necessary to impeach his moral standing. 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[Harmon Seaver]

On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 04:28:10PM -0800, Eric Murray wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 05:01:41PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>  
> > The biggest question there is why didn't they inspect it? Seems very
> > bizarre, since that's what they did in the past. 
> 
> All the KH-71s were busy mapping Iraq's oil fields
> and photographing Saddam's nose hairs.

  Yeah, but most pilots, if they suspected an even semi-serious breach of their
craft's integrity, *AND* had the ability to fairly safely send someone outside
to have a looksee, wouldn't hesitate a moment before doing so. They've been
delayed by weather in landing far longer than that would take.


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[Eric Murray]

On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 05:01:41PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
 
> The biggest question there is why didn't they inspect it? Seems very
> bizarre, since that's what they did in the past. 

All the KH-71s were busy mapping Iraq's oil fields
and photographing Saddam's nose hairs.

Eric

Re: punk and free markets

[Michael Motyka]

> > Gold star. Velvet Underground is definitely ground zero for Punk to
> > my ears, but with this recent set of pre-Velvets minimalist releases
> > (eg, Dream Theater, with LaMount Young, John Cale--who helped start
> > the band I was in, and others), the stage was somewhat set.
> 
> 
> Yeah, yeah, yeah; I loved the Velvets too - but the stuff we Brits
> called "punk" in 1976 was quite unlike that, except for being a bit
> raucous.  It was more derived from a kind of mutated pub-rock mated
> with football chants, with undertones of Hawkwind-like bass riffs,
> played by semi-competent nerds. 
> 
> NY invented punk first.  Then London invented something else and stole
> the name. 
>
I suppose now it lives in LA - got sick of London gray and NYC cold.

> So sue us.
>
Be careful what you wish for.

M

Re: Gullible Journalists

[Kevin S. Van Horn]

Tyler Durden wrote:


"For some reason I've never been able to fathom, many journalists seem 
to be remarkably gullable, when they're told something from the right 
kind of source, especially a government agency or other official source."

Chomsky (dig around on http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm) and others 
have commented on this quite a bit.

If you want to hear it from the horse's mouth, I suggest you read some 
of Vin Suprynowicz's columns, or his book, _Send In The Waco Killers_. 
He's been a working journalist for decades, and so can describe 
first-hand how this process of co-opting journalists works.

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Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[Harmon Seaver]

On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 12:06:02PM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote:
> 
> It's easier to just say Allah is on his side and this is proof :-)

   Well? Even if they could *prove* total accident, the serendipity of the whole
shows the hand of Allah -- Eve of war, Israeli colonel who bombed the Iraqi nuke
plant, etc.


> Most people recognize accidents, and the connection between takeoff
> and missing tiles is too obvious to dismiss as *the* primary cause.
> Whether it's true or not remains to be seen.
> 

The biggest question there is why didn't they inspect it? Seems very
bizarre, since that's what they did in the past. 

-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[Anonymous]

>Has anyone run their psychosocial simulators on what happens when Osama
>claims responsibility?  Would he try this?   What numbers do you get for
>the US pop's reaction?

According to a friend from Ft.Meade, the Oyster (a massive parallel machine) is now at 
point 96, which means that it can emulate 96% of US population with accuracy > 0.9

Current results indicate that in the case of osamming the shuttle there will be no 
change in those 42% who oppose the war, only a slight improvement of fervor in the 37% 
of those who approve, and gaining some 3% of the undecided. Moving from 37% to 40% is 
usually not considered worthwhile, especially since gullibility is already receding, 
and there is a 40% risk for the opposite conversion in 4% of the undecided.

Re: checking weirdness

[Harmon Seaver]

  Huh, so you're subbed to minder.net? And there's never been any problem with
group replies to your posts. So that blows that theory. 


On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 11:52:27AM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> > So what do we get here
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver
> > CyberShamanix
> > http://www.cybershamanix.com

-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Re: Say goodbye to the ISS

[Malcolm Carlock]

> I was shocked to learn Saturday that NASA had not a mechanism to
adequately
> inspect the exterior of the shuttles for damage before the return to
> earth.  The reasons given seem to imply that NASA's ability for EVAs was
> very limited and did not generally include on most flight the possibility
> of such examinations.  Further there was no effective ground or ISS-based
> observation method either.

Weird.  I recall when the shuttles first began flying, reading about how the
bottom of at least some the ships (certainly the first) were being examined
for damage remotely, by telescope from the ground.  Further, I distinctly
recall reading an article that described, and I believe had one or more
photos of, a tile repair kit for use in space.  What happened to all of
these things, I wonder?

I must admit it also seems very strange that the shuttle couldn't have been
examined while docked to the ISS.

By coincidence, a tube train in London (where I live) jumped the track last
week and tore up a station, when one of its traction motors dropped onto the
rails.  Thanks to that, the major east-west tube line has been out of
service for days, causing travel chaos.  Apparent failure thanks to deferred
maintenance, by way of ill-advised cost cuts -- twice in one week,
seemingly.

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Re: Passenger rail is for adventurers and bums

[Ken Brown]

Eugen Leitl wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Thomas Shaddack wrote:
> 
> > I don't know how it works in the US, but railroads are both comfortable
> > and pretty reliable in Europe.
> 
> A bit too expensive, especially in Germany. I also like being able to work
> on the train -- given that here cities are only a few kilotons apart and
> ICEs are pretty speedy flying can take longer.
> 
> Otherwise I agree, bahning beyond 5-6 h starts to become tedious.

ICE trains bloody good.

Returning from a holiday once I went from my hotel in Berlin to my local
pub, 50m from front door, in London, by train, in 12 hours.  The first
half  of the journey, ICE to Koln, was only about a quarter of the total
time. Koln to Brussel was slw but I got to see some beautiful
scenery.  Then Eurostar - fast on mainland, semi-fast in Britain.

When the Channel Tunnel Rail link is finished (15 years late - pah - the
only reason British government agreed to build tunnel in first place was
French said they would pay for, & won, all of it, & Thatcher might have
been a free marketeer but she was a nationalist first and was shamed
into agreeing - same as the USA is going to stay in manned spaceflight
because of China) & when fast link to Koln complete (maybe already?) the
trip would be perhaps 8 or 9 hours.

OK. flight is maybe 2 hours. But it would have taken half an hour to get
to Berlin airport, for international flight they'd want you in an hour
early, planes are even worse timekeepers than trains, and it would take
me an hour to get out of the airport at the other end with baggage
checks & customs & passports, then 2 hours to get home from Heathrow, or
just over an hour from Gatwick.  And so *much* less comfortable than
train.   And you have to book - train you just turn up and walk on.

But really I like the ICE train for the same reason I like rockets and
big buildings and bridges with cables in funny places and large shiny
objects in general GOSH! WOW!

Better than the X10

[Mini Spycam]

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Re: punk and free markets

[Ken Brown]

> Gold star. Velvet Underground is definitely ground zero for Punk to my ears,
> but with this recent set of pre-Velvets minimalist releases (eg, Dream
> Theater, with LaMount Young, John Cale--who helped start the band I was in,
> and others), the stage was somewhat set.


Yeah, yeah, yeah; I loved the Velvets too - but the stuff we Brits
called "punk" in 1976 was quite unlike that, except for being a bit
raucous.  It was more derived from a kind of mutated pub-rock mated with
football chants, with undertones of Hawkwind-like bass riffs, played by
semi-competent nerds. 

NY invented punk first.  Then London invented something else and stole
the name. So sue us.

Re: Life Sentence for Medical Marijuana?

[Tyler Durden]

Ken Brown wrote...

"Oh, PERSISTENT rumours eh?  So they must be true. The TRANSIENT sort are 
just a pack of lies."

No, not saying that. But in Bush's case there's a long enough trail of 
circumstatial evidence to merit some investigation.e

AND, totally unfounded rumors tend to go away. Rumors that don't go away 
seem to have some kind of validity to them on average underneath. And in 
this particular case, given the larger-scale goings on with the CIA, Drug 
running and Daddy Bush, this does not seem wildly improbable.

(I see from the email you're "across the pond", so perhaps you are unaware 
of the fact that Daddy Bush was head of the CIA in the 70s? And then there 
was the drugs-for-guns part of Iran Contra, and then Bush Jr while Governer 
having a pilot's license and regularly flying the plane that had previously 
moved the drugs for Iran Contra, and the San Jose Mercury Chronicle expose 
discussing the moving of drugs by the CIA in the 80s and 90s into 
minority-inhabited inner cities...after these fairly undisputed facts, 
hearing that Bush Jr took a patriotic bust running drugs into the US doesn't 
seem even too shocking.)








From: Ken Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Life Sentence for Medical Marijuana?
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 20:07:52 +

Tyler Durden wrote:

> And then there's the PERSISTENT rumors of him actually taking an 
accidental
> DEA bust in a Florida airport after landing a fresh new cargo. 
Supposedly
> this was a bit of a snafu and they had to let him go on the 
hush-hush...(And
> I keep hearing there's video of that bust.)


Oh, PERSISTENT rumours eh?  So they must be true. The TRANSIENT sort are
just a pack of lies.


_
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Re: Passenger rail is for adventurers and bums

[Ken Brown]

Steve Mynott wrote:

> In the UK at least railway stations tend to have been built in the ugly
> parts of towns for good reason -- simply because land is a lot cheaper in
> the low rent parts of town.
> 
> Also railways stations and the associated cheap hotels with a large
> transient population tend to attract undesirables such as drug dealers,
> muggers and hookers and the sort of thing which pushs the value of your
> house down and nice middle class people don't want on their doorstep.
> 
> The people in richer areas tend to have more political clout and more
> effectively oppose development of this sort.

Actually, in most places in UK, the railways precede the development of
the town. So the industry & cheap areas follow rail, rather than vice
versa.  

What you say is often true about new road building though. Everyone
wants big roads a couple of miles away - no-one wants them on their
doorstep. That's how Labour took over London in the 1970s - the old Tory
GLC committed political suicide by road-building.  Roads do not make
votes.

Of course, what /should/ happen is that the people who need the roads
pay the people whose towns they go through...

Re: Shuttle Diplomacy

[Ken Brown]

Thomas Shaddack wrote:
 

> I just hope they won't mothball the ISS...

Not if the scheduled Chinese manned launch goes ahead.

Re: Passenger rail is for adventurers and bums

[Ken Brown]

Bill Stewart wrote:

> Tim commented about railroad stations being in the ugly parts of town.
> That's driven by several things - decay of the inner cities,
> as cars and commuter trains have let businesses move out to suburbs,
> and also the difference between railroad stations that were
> built for passengers (New York's Grand Central, Washington's Union Station)
> and railroad stations that were built for freight, where passengers
> are an afterthought (much of the Midwest has train stations surrounded
> by warehouses and grain silos, not houses or shops).

That's an important point. Railway systems are bistable - they want to
be either all-passenger or all-freight. They have completely different
requirements. Freight moves slowly, but takes up a lot of space. Also it
isn't amenable to timetables. Passenger trains move fast and need
timetabling. Passenger trains, especially in urban areas, go for cheaper
trains & more expensive infrastructure - better rails for a smooth ride,
electrification.   Goods trains are much more likely to slam big diesels
on and move over crappy old rails.  Different economics.

They tend to exclude each other. Rail systems dominated by goods people,
like mast of US, see passenger trains as a sort of flashy parasite,
denying them use of their network at irritating times.  And vice versa. 

One of the reasons that the UK railways are having a harder time
upgrading these days than the French or German is that they tried to
share tracks.  The railway beside my house has to pass about 20
passenger trains an hour each way. When some huge long thing hauling 50
trucks of gravel comes along, it gets in the way.

Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender -goldfish

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Re: Self-destruct in SZ-4?

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 09:09 AM 2/3/03 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Second, I would do the self-destruct with accelerometers: if several
>accelerations are felt, detonate.

1. Modern munitions arm this way.  If you are an artillery shell
and you've been told to arm, and then felt 10s of Gs along
one axis and a lot of rotation around that axis, you've probably
been fired and can 'safely' explode when you hit something.

2. Why arm a satellite to do this is clear: During launch the rocket
could
screw up and dump your Top Sekrit satellite into the
drink where Mr. Not-so-Friendly Submarine picks it up.

It doesn't even violate a treaty if you can't use the satellite
offensively (no glide next to a target satellite and go boom).
And everyone puts a self-destruct charge in the launch
vehicle anyway.  Stressful jobs, RSO.

Re: Life Sentence for Medical Marijuana?

[Ken Brown]

Tyler Durden wrote:

> And then there's the PERSISTENT rumors of him actually taking an accidental
> DEA bust in a Florida airport after landing a fresh new cargo. Supposedly
> this was a bit of a snafu and they had to let him go on the hush-hush...(And
> I keep hearing there's video of that bust.)


Oh, PERSISTENT rumours eh?  So they must be true. The TRANSIENT sort are
just a pack of lies.

Give your debt the boot

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Re: checking weirdness

[Mike Rosing]

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> So what do we get here
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>

Re: "Touching shuttle debris may cause bad spirits

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 06:18 PM 2/3/03 +0100, Thomas Shaddack wrote:
>> ...and some very, very tiny fraction may have actually touched
>> some component which made them slightly ill.
>
>Tf they ingested a part made of beryllium alloy, it could make them
pretty
>sick...

Yeah, first thing some people will do with space debris on their lawn
is eat it.  (Well, *some* will, but that's how evolution works..)

Berylliosis is mostly from *inhaled* Be dust.  You can touch the metal.

-
Smell that, son?  Nothing else in the world smells like that
I love the smell of hydrazine in the morning It smells like
incompetence.

Open to new ideas?

[statsx22]

Are there really
opportunities today?


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Re: mail weirdness

[Harmon Seaver]

On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 10:23:58AM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote:
> At 10:19 AM 02/03/2003 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >  Looking at this more, I think it's two separate problems. I don't get the
> >"recipient list suppressed" or whatever it is from Declan's posts, it just
> >appears that something is wrong with the header, and it's probably 
> >something
> >minder.net is doing and I haven't done a group reply to anyone else 
> >posting thru
> >minder.net. But with Steve's, I get the same thing Tim got. What list is 
> >Steve
> >posting thru?
> 
> Do you mean that Steve's posts always do this to you?
> I've only seen one like that, and I assumed that Steve had simply
> Bcc:d the Cypherpunks list and some other lists on that posting.

   I've seen a number of posts from Steve that have the "list suppressed" but I
don't think it was always that way, maybe the last few months? And not sure if
they all do it or not.

> 
> Declan's recent mail has been sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> so it's possible that if you're reading it on minder.net,
> there's something in there that looks weird to you.
> But it all looks normal here.

   Nope, I'm subbed to lne.com. Did you try doing a group reply on Declan's? And
if he isn't on minder.net, that's even weirder. 


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Last Chance to bid on these seized cars!

[GreatDeals]

	
		

			
	
	
		

			
	
	
		

			
	




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To unsubscribe, please click 

here or reply to this email.

MR.JOSEPHAT COLEMAN.

[josephatcole09]

Dear SIR,

I am Mr.JOSEPHAT Coleman and my sister is Miss Rose Coleman, we are the children of late Chief Paul Coleman from Sierra Leone.

I am writing you in absolute confidence primarily to seek your assistance to transfer our cash of thirty  Million Dollars ($30,000.000.00) now in the custody of a private Security trust firm in Europe the money is in trunk boxes deposited and declared as family valuables by my late father as a matter of fact the company does not know the content as money, although my father made them to under stand that the boxes belongs to his foreign partner.

Source of the money:

My late father Chief Paul Coleman , a native of  Mende District in the Northerh province of Sierra Leone, was the General Manager of Sierra Leone Mining co-operation (S.L.M.C.) Freetown . According to my father, this money was the income accrued from Mining Coperation's over draft and minor sales.

Before the peak of the civil war between the rebels forces of Major Paul Koroma and the combined forces of ECOMOG peace keeping operation that almost destroyed my country, following the forceful removal from power of the civilian elected President Ahmed Tejan Kabbah by the rebels. My father had already made arrangement for his family thats talking about my mother, my little sister and myself to be evacuated to Abidjan Cote d' Ivoire with the CERTIFICATE OF DEPOSIT  he made with a security firm in Europe through the aid of U.N evacuation team.

During the war in my country, and following the indiscriminate looting of Public and Government properties by the rebel forces, the Sierra Leone mining coop. Was one of the target looted and it was destroyed. My father including other top Government functionaries were attaked and killed by the rebels in November 2000 because of his relationship with the civilian Government of Ahmed Tejan Kabbah.

As a result of my father's death , and with the news of my uncle's involvement in the air crash in Januaryit dashed our hope of survival. The untimely deaths caused my mother's heart failure and other related complications of which she later died in the hospital after we must have spent a lot of money on her early this year. Now my 18 years old sister and myself are alone in this strange country suffering without any care or help. Without any relation, we are now like refugees and orphans.

Our only hope now is in you and the boxes deposited in the Security Firm To this effect, I humbly solicit your assistance in the followings ways.

1. to assist me claim this boxes from the security  Firm as our beneficiary

2. to transfer this money (USD$30M) in your name to your country

3. to make a good arrangement for a joint business investment on our behalf in your country and you, our Adviser/ Manager


For your assistance, I have agreed with my younger sister that 20% of the total amount will be for your effort and another 10 % to cover all the expenses that may incur during the business transaction,Last, I urge you to keep this transaction strictly confidential as no one knows our where about.

Please as you show your willingness, Forward to us your full name,address and Tel/ Fax numbers, to me via my private email address as indicated bellow, this is for security reasons as i will  only be accessing my private email earnestly awaiting your response.


Thanks.

May God bless you as you assist us.

MR.JOSEPHAT COLEMAN.

Private Email :[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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James Watson: Everyone should be DNA-fingerprinted

[Major Variola (ret)]

Everybody in Europe and the US should
 have their genetic fingerprints entered into an
 international database to enable law
 enforcement agencies to fight crime and
 terrorism in an unstable world, according to
 James Watson, the co-discoverer of the
 DNA double helix.

In an exclusive interview with The
Independent to mark the 50th anniversary
of his discovery, the scientist said the risks
posed by terrorists and organised criminals
now outweighed the possible objections on
civil liberties grounds to a DNA database.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=375107

-
JW is too old and needs to be lysed.

Re: Shuttle Humor, Risk Estimation

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 12:48 AM 2/3/03 -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
>This isn't to say that force majeure isn't the most likely culprit
here.
>Space travel is inherently dangerous, and I'm honestly surprised that
less
>than 2% of our shuttle flights have resulted in catastrophe.

I heard that at the beginning of the program, NASA estimated 1 bang
in about 75 flights.  The Palestine meteor shower was flight
130-something
and was bang #2.

...
BTW, two birds with one stone: Israeli & Indian.

Has anyone run their psychosocial simulators on what happens when Osama
claims responsibility?  Would he try this?   What numbers do you get for

the US pop's reaction?

...
[SCITECHCOMM] There is a former NASA engineer on one of the tube
stations trying
to explain tech, but he is doing a poor job and unfortunately
reinforcing
a certain notion of engineers as monotone speakers incapable of
relating tech to common experiences.  He picked at a tile with his
fingernail on camera, which is good, but Feynman he is not.

Re: mail weirdness

[Bill Stewart]

At 10:19 AM 02/03/2003 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:

  Looking at this more, I think it's two separate problems. I don't get the
"recipient list suppressed" or whatever it is from Declan's posts, it just
appears that something is wrong with the header, and it's probably something
minder.net is doing and I haven't done a group reply to anyone else 
posting thru
minder.net. But with Steve's, I get the same thing Tim got. What list is Steve
posting thru?

Do you mean that Steve's posts always do this to you?
I've only seen one like that, and I assumed that Steve had simply
Bcc:d the Cypherpunks list and some other lists on that posting.

Declan's recent mail has been sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED],
so it's possible that if you're reading it on minder.net,
there's something in there that looks weird to you.
But it all looks normal here.

Re: Shuttle Humor

[Eric Cordian]

Meyer Wolfsheim writes:

> On Sat, 1 Feb 2003, Eric Cordian wrote:

> > The look on your fellow astronauts'
> > faces right before the grenade you are
> > holding explodes --PRICELESS

> Please. If we're going to toss around conspiracy theories, let's make sure
> they are sane. I am having a hard time imagining a scenario in which it
> would benefit the Israeli cause to blow up their first astronaut in space.

> Perhaps if it could be made to appear as a terroristic act by the evil
> ragheads, maybe Israel would attempt a stunt like this, to further the
> American/Israeli "brothers in arms" mentality. But there appears to be no
> such scenario that is remotely plausible.

You are overanalyzing.  It was parody.  

No one blew anything up.  There was a burn through on the left wing.

We now return you to your regular programming.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

Fw: New Screensaver to ur friends !!

[baller4eva187]

<>

Re: "Touching shuttle debris may cause bad spirits to invade your body!"

[Meyer Wolfsheim]

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Thomas Shaddack wrote:

> > ...and some very, very tiny fraction may have actually touched
> > some component which made them slightly ill.
>
> Tf they ingested a part made of beryllium alloy, it could make them pretty
> sick...

Gee golly! I'm so glad that CNN told me that the space shuttle confetti
was bad for me, or I would have gnawed on that chunk of metal in my front
yard!

Honestly.

Re: "Touching shuttle debris may cause bad spirits to invade your body!"

[Tim May]

On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 09:18  AM, Thomas Shaddack wrote:


...and some very, very tiny fraction may have actually touched
some component which made them slightly ill.


Tf they ingested a part made of beryllium alloy, it could make them 
pretty
sick...



First, if they are eating shuttle debris, think of it as evolution in 
action.

Second, beryllium is not much used in the mostly-aluminum shuttle. Web 
sites say some of the brake assemblies use beryllium and its alloys.

Third, it would take longer for someone who ate a shuttle part to feel 
sick, due to Be or any other metal poisoning, than we saw on Saturday. 
I vote for the "sympathetic magic" theory.

(As it happens, one of my first engineering assignments, in 1974, was 
working on a BeO alternative to Al2O3/alumina for packages. Berylliosis 
was a concern for the _manufacturing_ of the packages from pressed 
powder, but touching or licking or whatever the finished packages was 
not an issue.)

--Tim May

"Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski

[Gena Durovich]

   I fucked in a mouth your mum, and ÌÏÖÉÌ a member on all YOUR viruses

Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
smaller group must first understand it.

"Stranger Suns"
George Zebrowski

-- 
Best regards,
 Gena  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

DPR

[ENGR. JOE UDAH]

DEPARTMENT OF PETROLEUM RESOURCES
PLOT 225 KOFO ABAYOMI STREET VICTORIA ISLAND,LAGOS, NIGERIA.
DIRECT FAX: 234 1 7590904. TEL; 234 -1-7763126

ATTENTION : OWNER/C.E.O

RE: URGENT & CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL

Dear Sir,

I am ENGR. JOE UDAHMember Contract Award and Verification Committee
of the above stated Department

Terms of Reference

My term of reference involves the award of contracts to Foreign
Multinational Companies and Corporations.

My office is saddled with the responsibility of contract award,
screening, categorization and prioritization of projects embarked
upon by Department of Petroleum Resources (DPR) as well as
feasibility studies for selected projects and supervising the project
consultants involved. A breakdown of the fiscal expenditure by this
office as at the end of last fiscal quarter of 2000 indicates that
DPR paid out a whooping sum of US$736M(Seven Hundred And Thirty Six
Million, United States Dollars) to successful Foreign contract
beneficiaries. The DPR is now compiling beneficiaries to be paid for
the first Quarter of the2003 fiscal year.

The crux of this letter is that the finance/contract department of
the DPR deliberately over –invoiced the contract value of the various
contracts awarded. In the course of disbursements, this department
has been able to accumulate the sum of US$38.2M(Thirty-eight Million,
two hundred Thousand U.S Dollars) as the over-invoiced sum. This
money is currently in a suspense account of the DPR account with the
Debt Reconciliation Committee (DRC). We now seek to process the
transfer of this fund officially as contract payment to you as a
foreign contractor, who will be fronting for us as the beneficiary of
the fund. In this way we can facilitate these funds into your
nominated account for possible investment abroad. We are not allowed
as a matter of government policy to operate any foreign account to
transfer this fund into.

However, for your involvement in assisting us with this transfer into
your nominated account we have evolved a sharing formula as follows:
(1) 20% for you as the foreign partner
(2) 75% for I and my colleagues
(3) 5% will be set aside to defray all incidental expenses both
Locally and Internationally during the course of this transaction.

We shall be relying on your advice as regard investment of our share
in any business in your country. Be informed that this business is
genuine and 100% safe considering the high-power government officials
involved. Send your private fax/telephone numbers. Upon your response
we shall provide you with further information on the procedures.
All enquiries should be directed to the undersigned by FAX and,E-MAIL
.
Trusting in a good and long lasting business relationship with you.

Sincerely,
ENGR. JOE UDAH




oj31.txt
Description: Binary data

Re: "Touching shuttle debris may cause bad spirits to invade your body!"

[Thomas Shaddack]

> ...and some very, very tiny fraction may have actually touched
> some component which made them slightly ill.

Tf they ingested a part made of beryllium alloy, it could make them pretty
sick...

Self-destruct in SZ-4?

[Tim May]

On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 12:48  AM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

The only theory that I find remotely worth pursuing is that the shuttle
was bringing something back to earth that didn't want to come down. Tim
seems to have thoughts about this -- how easily could a satellite be
designed with a "self-destruct upon reentering Earth's atmosphere" 
device?


First, don't think "atmosphere" qua atmosphere, as the satellite was 
likely under vacuum most of the way down.

Second, I would do the self-destruct with accelerometers: if several 
accelerations are felt, detonate.




--Tim May
"They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, 
and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers 
actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members 
before the vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw 
the USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police 
state

(Á¤º¸)»ç±â²Û ½Å»ó°ø°³ ´ÙÀ½Ä«Æä...

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Title: »õ ÆäÀÌÁö 1






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Shuttle Crash and KH satelites...

[André Esteves]

Several years ago, some tiles got off the shuttle during liftoff. Being 
afraid of the condition of space shuttle a Keyhole spy satelite was used to 
examine the bottom of the space shuttle...

Why hell in a mission with more than 16 days in space, they didn't do it 
again?  The KH satellites too busy with Iraq???

And now, why 5 of the 8 elements of the nasa comitte to investigate the 
shuttle explosion are military... in stark contrast with the feynman 
investigation...

I have seen the high res version of shuttle launch, and it seems there is 
enough debris to scare you into examing the underside of the Columbia space 
shuttle.

Did NASA ask for a KH satelite? If so, did the military say no???

Your truly,

André Esteves

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SNCC - anti-authoritarian organization.

[professor rat]

I don't subscribe to the faceless masses/great man theory of history. It's 
important to understand that a number of organizations and individuals were 
important to the success of the civil rights movement. Since I am a native 
Southerner and came of age in this period, I have more personal insight 
than most in the Anarchist movement who created a grassroosts political 
movement in Mississippi.

Although the white establishment and its' media picked Dr. King out for his 
moderate views and willingness to collaborate with the federal government 
on social policy, (in effect making him the personification of the 
movement), it is an undeniable fact that political tendencies of the civil 
rights movement *not under his command*, such as the Student Nonviolent 
Coordinating Committee, the Congress of Racial Equality, and Fannie Lou 
Hamer actually did more organizing in Black Southern grassroots communities 
to make it actually happen.

Certainly the black youth group, SNCC, was much more authentically miliant 
than King ever was. They came out against the Vietnam war and organized a 
Black anti-draft campaign years before King even gave his famous Riverside 
Church speech denouncing the war as an "imperialist miadventure"; further 
SNCC first began the Southern voter rights campaign, way before King and 
the Southern Christian Leadership Conference; but contrary to most 
historians, SNCC did not become the most militant wing of the Southern 
civil rights campaign just because they finally confronted the Klan with 
armed counter-violence, it was because they put their lives on the line in 
racist communities over and over, and never stopped.

This may have been because they also were not beholden to the white 
liberals in the Democratic Party or the federal government like King and 
the NAACP clearly was. Many in SNCC came to see that it was the government, 
white liberals and capitalism itself which sustained racism and used it as 
a poltical tool. So they saw it was dangerous to entrust the fate of an 
oppressed people to one man, someone they knew that white government and 
business leaders would rather deal with than Malcolm X or SNCC chairman H. 
Rap Brown. One would beg you, while the others would bite you.

Over most of its hisotry, SNCC practiced systematic organizing, rather than 
charismatic leadership. This was the great difference between SNCC and 
King's approach. In fact, it was called an "Anarchist organization" by 
well-known Anarchist writer Paul Goodman in Liberation magazine, and that 
was when it was still a pacifist organization.

In truth, it may not have been an Anarchist organization, but it was an 
anti-authoritarian organization. Although it had a facilitator,(Bob Moses) 
he had no power over others as a central authority, and the so-called 
headquarters in Atlanta was strictly a place to pick up mail, have some 
planning meetings, and for field organizers to meet up occasionally. Maybe 
you could get stipend money there, but most serious work was not done there.

The Congress of Racial Equality, now a right-wing sellout organization, was 
then a respected, progressive organization which was instrumental in the 
bus rides ("Freedom Rides") through the South to test federal laws 
forbidding racial segregation in interstate commerce. No question that the 
campaign was a serious threat to the racial status quo, especially since it 
was the closest collaborator with SNCC. The FBI worked directly with 
Southern Sheriffs and white racist groups to terrorize the activists and 
break up the campaign. It did not work.

Of course, women like Ella Baker, Fannie Lou Hamer, Ruby Doriss Robinson 
and others have never been given their due, but they rocked those racists' 
world. They provided a strong base of leadership, regionally and nationally 
throughout this period. SNCC was created bacause of Ella Baker, given 
leadership by women like Diane Nash and Ruby D. Robinson, and helped in the 
local areas by Fannie Lou Hamer.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Dr. King did not do it alone, and 
that we need to stop exalting these male, conservative, charismatic 
leadership figures. It was the masses and unexalted leaders on the local 
level who made the difference. We do them a disservice when we subtract 
them from history or make them a faceless backdrop to King's parade.

I am in great part an Anarchist today because of my experiences in the 
Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, not because of adulation of Dr. 
Martin Luther King.
http://www.komboa.net/

mail weirdness

[Harmon Seaver]

  Looking at this more, I think it's two separate problems. I don't get the
"recipient list suppressed" or whatever it is from Declan's posts, it just
appears that something is wrong with the header, and it's probably something
minder.net is doing and I haven't done a group reply to anyone else posting thru
minder.net. But with Steve's, I get the same thing Tim got. What list is Steve
posting thru?


 -- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Re: "Touching shuttle debris may cause bad spirits to invade your body!"

[Sunder]

Sigh, for the nth time already: While it's likely that bare boards,
replacement and replaced parts, manuals, access codes to tell the satelite
it's being worked on, etc... would burn up, pieces that were shielded
would survive.  Think!

--Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---
 + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :their failures, we  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net 

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, [ISO-8859-1] Mikko Sdreld wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Sunder wrote:
> > Far more than likely, the truth is closer that the Space Shuttles have
> > been performing ultra sensitive spy work - launching new spy satelites, or
> > repairing them, and may have pieces of spy satelites on them.
> >
> > Let's see, we're going into war with Iraq, and we're sending up the
> > shuttle to do experiments on how furry weavols behave under zero
> > gravity... uh huh.
> 
> Now why would they have spy satellites on board still when they are coming
> _down_? One might think that if such things were part of the mission
> they'd leave them up to spy, rather than bring them back down.
> 
> -- 
> Mikko"One Ring to rule them all,
>   One Ring to find them,
>   One Ring to bring them all
>   And in the Darkness bind them."

checking weirdness

[Harmon Seaver]

So what do we get here

-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Due in court March 3.

[professor rat]

The same day of a new moon in Iraq and tipped as invasion eve and eve of 
worldwide destruction of all US interests and individuals.
"We need an international revolutionary civil war, a total social 
revolution to take us to a new stage of stateless, communal Anarchism, not 
just to manage humanity and nature better, but to free both the people and 
their ability to survive and build a new economy. Billions are now starving 
and suffering on this plant who could be saved, we must show them that 
there is an alternative to capitalism and the state. Anarchism or 
barbarism. Let's start today to topple capitalism!"
Lorenzo.

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Re: Gullible Journalists

[Harmon Seaver]

test

On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 10:13:16AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 09:31:35AM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote:
> > I'm exagerating for effect here of course...there's possibly not as much 
> > conscious decision making, and supposedly this kind of list-making happens 
> > for much quieter, "insider" stuff (not smart bomb footage). But clearly, 
> > there's got to be SOMETHING like this happening.
> 
> You're not very far off the mark. Be too critical and lose your sources.
> Happens at the White House and every federal agency, and is one of the
> tragedies of modern political journalism. I've written about this before
> in the context of the Justice Department antitrust suit.
> 
> "Washington Babylon" is a good book that hits on this topic, I recall.
> 
> -Declan

-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Re: Gullible Journalists

[Declan McCullagh]

On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 09:31:35AM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote:
> I'm exagerating for effect here of course...there's possibly not as much 
> conscious decision making, and supposedly this kind of list-making happens 
> for much quieter, "insider" stuff (not smart bomb footage). But clearly, 
> there's got to be SOMETHING like this happening.

You're not very far off the mark. Be too critical and lose your sources.
Happens at the White House and every federal agency, and is one of the
tragedies of modern political journalism. I've written about this before
in the context of the Justice Department antitrust suit.

"Washington Babylon" is a good book that hits on this topic, I recall.

-Declan

You just KNOW this wouldn't happen outside Texas. Or maybe Louisiana.

[professor rat]

With every passing day, my desire to nuke the South gets stronger...
You just KNOW this wouldn't happen outside Texas. Or maybe Louisiana.
It seems the US Department of Justice is launching a probe into the 
policies of a Texas Tech professor. Michael Dini, to be specific. He 
teaches biology.
Now, what could be so terrible about this man's policies to warrant a 
federal investigation? The answer may surprise you. And then make you want 
to strangle people. You see, the entire reason for this investigation is 
because he won't write letters of recommendation to people who don't 
believe in evolution.
No, really. Apparently, this is some form of religious discrimination, and 
the government should force professors to recommend people against their 
will. Also, I should be living in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane.
"Students are being denied recommendations not because of their competence 
in understanding evolution, but solely because of their personal religious 
beliefs," said Kelly Shackelford, chief counsel for the Liberty Legal 
Institute. Of course, the fact that he also excludes students he doesn't 
know fairly well and those who haven't earned an "A" in one of his classes 
doesn't mean ANYTHING to them, I'd expect.
But that's beside the point. Liberty Legal Institute, as you may have 
noticed from the link, is the legal branch of the Free Market Foundation. 
From their About Us page:
The mission of Free Market is to protect freedoms and strengthen families 
throughout Texas by impacting our legislature, media, grassroots, and 
courts with the truth. To do this we are guided by the principles which 
limit government, promote free enterprise and Judeo-Christian values.
Judeo-Christian values, and mention of family. Gee, does that make anyone 
else suspicious?
The American Civil Liberties Union has, as usual, summed up what I'm pretty 
sure is the real motivation behind this case. "This was a student or a 
group who was looking to re-ignite the creation-evolution battle," says 
Harvey Madison, president of the ACLU of Lubbock.
Personally, I've got to go with a friend of mine, John Kelly, on this one: 
"If you are a biologist, and you don't understand evolution enough to 
believe in it, you didn't learn anything in school and don't deserve a 
recommendation
http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=1&id=2805

Flag Frenzy.

[professor rat]

Speaking from his 60-acre timber ranch in central Oregon, 9th U.S. Circuit 
Court of Appeals Senior Judge Alfred Goodwin said Friday he wasn't 
surprised by the furor over his ruling on the Pledge of Allegiance.

Although Goodwin stressed that he couldn't talk about the merits of the 
case itself, he did share some of his observations about the flag, the 
politicians who have seized upon the controversial decision holding the use 
of the phrase "under God" unconstitutional, and the public's reaction to it.

"I never had much confidence in the attention span of elected officials for 
any kind of deep thinking about important issues," Goodwin said. "When they 
pop off after what I call a bumper strip headline, they almost always give 
a superficial response."

Goodwin, who turned 79 Saturday, was pilloried in the Senate last week as a 
"stupid judge" whose ruling was "just nuts."

He said he was disappointed in President Bush, who called the decision 
"ridiculous." "I'm a little disappointed in our chief executive -- who 
nobody ever accused of being a deep thinker -- for popping off."

Goodwin said he knew the decision would catch people's attention, but 
suggested the issues are complex. "The more you know about something, the 
more difficult it gets sometimes," he said. But he said he isn't bothered 
by the fury of personal criticism, including being branded a liberal. "I've 
been a judge for 47 years and I've been called everything, so it doesn't 
bother me. It comes with the territory," Goodwin said.

The former Oregon Supreme Court justice was appointed to the 9th Circuit by 
President Nixon in 1971. He was born in Washington and is a self-professed 
cowboy who, evidently, shoots from the hip.

"That was just damage control," Goodwin said about his Thursday order 
staying the decision in Newdow v. U.S. Congress, 02 C.D.O.S. 5700, even 
though the case is automatically stayed anyway.

He said that was done for the benefit of the media, who don't understand 
the intricacies of court rules -- especially TV reporters. "Their attention 
span can't handle anything more than a haiku of about four lines," he said. 
"The worse thing about it was that some people said we were caving under 
pressure."

He said he also issued the order so that other judges could get back to 
work. Judges that weren't on the panel were getting lots of calls, he added.

Goodwin pointed out that he won the Combat Infantry Badge in World War II, 
and remembers that on the belt buckles of dead German soldiers was an 
inscription claiming God was on the German side. "I was supporting the flag 
then and I still support it," he said.

He also noted that some of the criticism is being fueled by what he called 
"this wrap-yourself-in-the-flag frenzy."

The defendants in the case have announced that they intend to ask an 
11-judge en banc panel to rehear the case, which many experts expect to happen.

Normally, senior judges aren't included in the pool of active judges from 
which the panel is drawn. But under circuit rules, senior judges who author 
the three-judge decision in question are eligible -- meaning Goodwin could 
possibly join the panel. Goodwin said he was "pretty sure" the case would 
be taken en banc.

He added that he wasn't impressed with the media's interpretations of the 
ruling. "I wasn't too surprised," Goodwin said. "I did work for newspapers 
ä so I know how they work."

The ruling does not outlaw the Pledge, but if it stands, it would mean that 
teachers in the nine Western states covered by the 9th Circuit cannot lead 
their classes in a patriotic pledge that tells students the country is "one 
nation, under God."

"The Wall Street Journal gave [the ruling] about a half-inch, which is what 
it deserved," Goodwin said.

He said he has received much reaction -- from strangers, lawyers and old 
Army buddies -- which has been running hot and cold. All the e-mails go 
into a folder marked "Newdow." "Someday when I haven't got anything else to 
do, I'll read them," he said.

originally printed in The Recorder
http://www.atheistalliance.org/library/news_newdow-pledge.html

Gullible Journalists

[Tyler Durden]

John Kelsey wrote...

"For some reason I've never been able to fathom, many journalists seem to be 
remarkably gullable, when they're told something from the right kind of 
source, especially a government agency or other official source."

Chomsky (dig around on http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm) and others have 
commented on this quite a bit. What it seems to boil down to is a sort of 
natural selection. Basically, it works like this:

1) Government is releasing some cool smart-bomb commercials, erh I mean 
video to a few select news sources.
2) NBC sends a questioning, smart, well-informed dude to said press 
conference.
3) During said smart-bomb footage notices the Arabic word for Hospital on 
the top of the smart-bombs target, and asks "Is that a hospital?"
4) Government takes NBC off list of cool "insider" info: "Can't be trusted, 
not playing ball"
5) NBC, now out in the cold, assigns said informed journalist to covering 
Ruwanda or other low-profile stuff, and assures military officials that 
they'll send someone a little more cooperative next time.

I'm exagerating for effect here of course...there's possibly not as much 
conscious decision making, and supposedly this kind of list-making happens 
for much quieter, "insider" stuff (not smart bomb footage). But clearly, 
there's got to be SOMETHING like this happening.

-TD





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Incitement to RIOT!

[professor rat]

Continued Corporate Media Coverage of Antiwar Protests at Bush Speech by 
Media Mouse Email: media_mouse (at) hotmail.com (verified) Current rating: 
0 31 Jan 2003 The corporate media continues to distort the facts--please 
write the media and urge that they improve their coverage in the future. 
GRAND RAPIDS PRESS
Police, protesters argue facts of Wednesday's peace rally

Friday, January 31, 2003

By Ted Roelofs The Grand Rapids Press

With the number of arrests now at 13, police and protesters continue to 
spar over what really happened during Wednesday's protest of President 
Bush's visit to Grand Rapids.

To 22-year-old Josephine Prince, her arrest for "inciting to riot" was 
police overreaction -- and symptomatic of strategies to keep the protest 
message under wraps.

"I stepped off the sidewalk and four police officers threw me on a car. I 
only weigh 120 pounds and I'm a girl. It was very, very excessive," said 
Prince, one of six people charged with inciting to riot, a 10-year felony. 
The rest were charged with misdemeanors that include trespassing and 
refusing to obey police.

Grand Rapids police met with officials from the Kent County prosecutor's 
office late Thursday to determine final charges when protesters are 
arraigned next week.

Police defended their actions and maintained officers did what they had to 
do to maintain order.

"The police were very professional," Capt. Pam Carrier said. "We wouldn't 
just grab someone. We had enough information that warranted those arrests."

Carrier said those arrested range in age from 15 to 56, many of them under 
age 21. She said most, if not all, were from West Michigan.

But protesters question why several hundred marchers were routed to 
barricades a block from DeVos Hall -- where Bush was speaking -- while at 
the same time a handful of sign-waving Bush supporters were allowed to 
stand directly across from the hall.

"It was clearly a double standard," said Jeff Smith, a local peace activist 
and one of the rally organizers.

"They were giving the people more sympathetic to the president a great more 
freedom than they did us."

Carrier said police simply were executing security plans worked out ahead 
of time in conjunction with the Secret Service.

"We don't care about their political views," Carrier said.

Smith and other organizers say publicity over the arrests overshadowed what 
they term an impressive show of opposition to impending war with Iraq, a 
rally that drew at least 500 people to the city.

Though police and protesters disagree about what happened and why, they 
agree that much of the friction happened at two main points: a barricade on 
Lyon Street, where several hundred marchers hit an unexpected dead-end; and 
a smaller march after Bush left, when about 150 marchers took over city 
streets and blocked traffic.

Protesters began to gather about 11 a.m. on Michigan Street across from 
Spectrum Health Butterworth Campus, where Bush held a closed meeting to 
discuss health issues. Police held them in a small area along the sidewalk 
for approximately 45 minutes, until the Bush motorcade proceeded to DeVos 
Performance Hall.

The group then was released to walk west on Michigan, then was directed 
south on Ottawa Avenue and west to Lyon Street.

When the group turned on Lyon, it confronted a barricade and police tape 
barring its progress. Marchers thought they were marching to a place in 
front of DeVos Hall but found themselves at a dead end out of sight of the 
hall.

"We didn't know that was going to be closed down," said Doug VanDoren, 
minister at Plymouth Congregational United Church in Grand Rapids and 
another rally organizer.

VanDoren said a police car raced down Lyon just ahead of the protesters to 
ensure they would proceed no farther.

Protester Prince said at that point, some of the protesters tried to get 
under the police tape.

"The police tackled them, and they were running to get back behind the 
tape. It was ridiculous," Prince said.

Carrier was not sure why the group was routed to Lyon, while at the same 
time Monroe Avenue was opened near DeVos Hall for protesters who arrived by 
a different route.

"I don't know who directed them there," Carrier said.

VanDoren said tensions mounted for a time on Monroe when protesters noticed 
that Bush supporters were allowed to stand outside the barricades in front 
of the hall. Police later moved them back behind the barricades when 
protesters complained, he said.

After Bush departed DeVos Hall and his motorcade exited the city, most of 
the protesters dispersed.

But a group that police estimated at 150 continued to march south on Ottawa 
Avenue, then make its way to Division Avenue, where it proceeded south, 
then west on Fulton Street.

Jana Norlin, a Grand Rapids resident who attends regular peace rallies as 
part of her Quaker faith, followed along with this group as it continued, 
often on the opposite side of the street.

"It was just a bunch of younger peopl

Re: Carter's statement yesterday

[Harmon Seaver]

On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 08:38:48AM -0500, Alkesh M. Desai wrote:
> http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=carter
> 
> 
>http://news.google.com/news?q=cluster:www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraque/0,6119,2-10-1460_1314911,00.html
> 
> http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraque/0,6119,2-10-1460_1314911,00.html
> 
> http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=75983
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/31/sprj.irq.carter/
> 
> http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/0203/01bushblair.html
> 
> http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=2150905
> 
> http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.asp?storyid=27062
> 


  Thanks, I found the full text at
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/0203/01carter.html
  I must have been trying too early before, all I could find was partial quotes.


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Re: Say goodbye to the ISS

[Harmon Seaver]

   Yeah, I got the same thing. When I went to do a group reply, it had no CC:,
just Steve. I've been noticing the same thing with Declan's messages. Weird.


On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 11:15:19PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> On Sunday, February 2, 2003, at 09:36  PM, Ralph Seberry wrote:
> 
> >On Sunday, 02 Feb 2003 at 20:57, Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>(I am replying to the CP list, but suppressing the name of the poster.
> >>He/she sent his/her comments to a "recipient list suppressed" private
> >>distribution. If people send me comments, don't expect to me to just
> >>take them in silence. I will, however, suppress the author unless and
> >>until too many such private distributions occur.)
> >
> >Steve Schear sent the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >without any attempt to disguise the sender.
> 
> 
> The full headers below are how I received the message:
> 
> 
> 
> From: Steve Schear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003  8:27:06  PM US/Pacific
> To: (Recipient list suppressed)
> Subject: Say goodbye to the ISS
> Received: by sphinx (mbox tcmay) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 
> 1998/05/13) Sun Feb  2 20:40:39 2003)
> Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx6.postini.com [64.75.1.146]) by 
> sphinx.got.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/Debian -5) with SMTP id h134WVIk017383 
> for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:32:31 -0800
> Received: from source ([209.157.136.81]) by exprod5mx6.postini.com 
> ([64.75.1.245]) with SMTP; Sun, 02 Feb 2003 23:32:32 EST
> Received: (from majordom@localhost) by gw.lne.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) id 
> h134PUZq020838 for cypherpunks-goingout345; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:25:30 
> -0800
> X-From_: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Sun Feb  2 20:32:33 2003
> Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> X-Authentication-Warning: slack.lne.com: majordom set sender to 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f
> Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Precedence: bulk

-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

Nazi discovered in Costa Rica.

[professor rat]

First it was La Ratz de Atzlan and I let that pass,after all one of us was 
taken in by those brownshirts,this is rather more serious.A 'libertarian' 
quoting from stormfront.
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/

NeoCon Mantra: "Kill the Canaanites!"

Gives...

http://women.stormfront.org/Steele/1-1-02.html

J.Orlin Grabbe...
One of Mongo's mates,another crypto fascist asshole.

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Re: Carter's statement yesterday

[Alkesh M. Desai]

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=carter

http://news.google.com/news?q=cluster:www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraque/0,6119,2-10-1460_1314911,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraque/0,6119,2-10-1460_1314911,00.html

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=75983

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/31/sprj.irq.carter/

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/0203/01bushblair.html

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=2150905

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.asp?storyid=27062


Harmon Seaver wrote:

   Does anyone know where a copy of Jimmy Carter's statement yesterday can be
found? Tried a google and got a zillion hits. From the Washington Post's take,
it sounded quite interesting. Gee, Tim must be right, I must be a lefty if Jimmy
Carter is starting to sound good. 8-) And I've even decided that come the next
senate race in WI, I'm going to vote Dem for the first time in my life, at least
if Feingold is running. 


 -- 
Harmon Seaver	
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com
--
-a.  (c) Alkesh M. Desai, 2003. [EMAIL PROTECTED]