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[IP] Tracking devices required for hassle-free travel? (fwd from dave@farber.net)
- Forwarded message from Dave Farber [EMAIL PROTECTED] - From: Dave Farber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:34:00 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [IP] Tracking devices required for hassle-free travel? X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:29:55 -0700 From: Brett Glass [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: For IP: Tracking devices required for hassle-free travel? X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unverified) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dave: I'm in Manhattan this morning, where -- due to the Federal government's extremely vague claims of increased terrorist risk -- the police are out in force during the morning commute. They're diverting traffic from some normal commuter routes (such as the upper deck of the Queensboro Bridge) and are requiring vehicles to slow down at checkpoints along others (such as the approach to the Queens-Midtown Tunnel). We've seen such checkpoints at Denver International Airport in the past, and have observed that they appear to have little effect other than slowing traffic and inconveniencing travelers. What they could possibly expect to be able to detect, during a second's glance at a moving vehicle, is unclear. What's particularly disturbing about the measures we saw today, however, is that authorities appeared to be pulling over, and singling out for more thorough inspection, vehicles which were not equipped with New York's electronic E-Z Pass -- an electronic device which allows vehicle owners to be charged automatically for tolls and parking. Your Interesting People list has, in the past, featured articles describing the increasingly widespread use of E-Z Pass records to track unfaithful spouses, employees, etc. We've seen examples of this sort of invasive mission creep before -- in particular, in the increasingly widespread use of the Social Security number for identification purposes of all kinds. But this is something new: It appears that now, when the Federal Government declares an orange terror alert, an electronic tracking device has become a requirement for hassle-free travel. One can only wonder if this is the start of an era in which one is detained, harassed, or otherwise branded as a suspected terrorist if at any time one pays via anonymous cash or is unwilling to have his or her movements continually traced and recorded. --Brett Glass [Just like the lack of a frequent flyer number will get you looked at hard at airports djf] - You are subscribed as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ - End forwarded message - -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a __ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
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Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
-- On 22 Dec 2003 at 22:02, Tyler Durden wrote: If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB sockpuppet then you really don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East Asian history. He was not a KGB sock puppet. He was KGB. The indochinese communist party was run from a desk in Moscow, and the guy behind that desk in Moscow was one Ho Chi Minh. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG tUqRWDkYAq3CLoQkZ14K0qF1d7QxbWlf6d2ZXjZs 43Qc8nduD4tJh6uumE28HC7EsKfnNFvnGEYCCH0BO
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Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
Well, again you've WAY oversimplified things. Indeed, this oversimplification is curiously identical to US foregin policy mistakes. Ho Chi Min, like Mao, would take guns from anybody in order to get the job done. If that meant wearing a Soviet uniform for 15 minutes, then sobeit. Don't mistake that for Eastern-European-style Soviet block governments. Was Ho Chi Min ultimately a dictator? Sure. A Soviet-style dictator? Well, I'd argue only nominally. I'd also argue that our post World War II betrayal of Ho had a lot to do with shoving him into the arms of the Soviets, just like with Mao. (But in neither case did the association stick.) The important notion is that, unlike in Europe, China and Vietnam never had anything resembling a democracy or Parliament or anything like that. They were still largely fuedal, agrarian societies that weren't really in a position to critically evaluate the implications of Soviet-style rulership (and in fact they probably viewed it as being merely a non-Monarchic version of what they'd always done). BUT...the Soviets were providing guns and money and we weren't. That both countries were really only externally Stalinst for a brief while (ie, a couple of decades) is evidenced by the fact that both economies are as about, in SOME ways, as free-wheeling and as capitalistic as exists these days. Of course, both are still certainly authoritarian and, depending on the subject, oppressive, but this has nothing to do with their politico-economic stance per se, as is now obvious. In other words, the moral of this story is that you can't merely graft on a western political philosophy--in this case Marxism--to cultures that have unbroken traditions dating back to the stone age. It may look 'Marxist' on the outside, but internally that transplant ain't going to take root. That US foreign policy in the far east in in Indo-China during most decades of the 20th century was a complete disaster was precisely due to the views you seem to hold. It's why we didn't back Mao when even though it was obvious BILLIONS of dollars were being siphoned away by Soong Tse-Vung and the Chiang regime...it's why we backed Lon Nol to overthrow Sihounouk (bringing in the Khmer rouge), and it's why we didn't back Ho even though he fought with us against the Japanese. Had we stood back from our prejudices, respected the soverignity of those nations, engaged and offered some guns in order for them to choose their OWN government, I'd bet the era of Soviet-style government in both China and Vietnam would have been much shorter, and in Cambodia it would have CERTAINLY never existed. In other words, YOU (and people with beliefs just like yours in the US government) are responsible for the spread of communism in the far east. Now you and your friends (including, I suspect, the guy who signs your paycheck) are going to do the same thing in the near east: you're going to force many ostensibly neutral nations into the Fundamentalist Islamic camp, because you just don't get it, and think we have the right to interfere. Well, the Soviets did it and the liberal left said it was great, so that makes it right. Forget it. Stop saying this crap and use that brain. 9/11 sucked enough in this town...we don't need another. -TD From: James A. Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam. Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:35:39 -0800 -- On 22 Dec 2003 at 22:02, Tyler Durden wrote: If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB sockpuppet then you really don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East Asian history. He was not a KGB sock puppet. He was KGB. The indochinese communist party was run from a desk in Moscow, and the guy behind that desk in Moscow was one Ho Chi Minh. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG tUqRWDkYAq3CLoQkZ14K0qF1d7QxbWlf6d2ZXjZs 43Qc8nduD4tJh6uumE28HC7EsKfnNFvnGEYCCH0BO _ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize
Re: [IP] Tracking devices required for hassle-free travel? (fwd from dave@farber.net)
-- On 23 Dec 2003 at 15:38, Eugen Leitl wrote: It appears that now, when the Federal Government declares an orange terror alert, an electronic tracking device has become a requirement for hassle-free travel. One can only wonder if this is the start of an era in which one is detained, harassed, or otherwise branded as a suspected terrorist if at any time one pays via anonymous cash or is unwilling to have his or her movements continually traced and recorded. During World War II, our newspapers would depict the totalitarianism of the German regime by showing a German cop asking someone to present his papers. When I visited Cuba, Cubans would depict the totalitarianism of the regime, by showing me their internal passports. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG uXT2oRtzzCpHIBBR5t7KejgeKkWf8KZZDS+tDjyy 4ehzJxpZaSQPzKPv/y53lOmOIONB3AmRCm8N5oA7O
Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
-- On 23 Dec 2003 at 15:07, Tyler Durden wrote: Ho Chi Min, like Mao, would take guns from anybody in order to get the job done It is mighty hard to take guns from anybody but Stalin when you are working in Moscow 9 to 5 for Stalin. . If that meant wearing a Soviet uniform for 15 minutes He worked behind a desk in Moscow for over ten years in a very senior position, which suggests he joined the KGB as a field agent much earlier. Kind of odd behavior for a nationalist. If you are looking for a nationalist leadership, Stalin's Moscow was not the place to find it. That US foreign policy in the far east in in Indo-China during most decades of the 20th century was a complete disaster was precisely due to the views you seem to hold. Containment was a catastrophe from the beginning. The US government should have done what the communists accused us of doing, and provided aid to the resistance in East Germany shortly after Stalin launched the cold war, and aid for the anti communist resistance in China when the true nature of Chinese 'land reform became apparent. Containment is a strategy that requires one to win or draw every time, at places and times of the enemies choosing. The US army did not win every time, and Vietnam was a bad place and time. With roll back, one could lose some, lose most, or even lose all, and if one launched more wars than the Soviet Union could afford, would still win the overall struggle. Indeed, arguably this was what happened during the second Reagan term. The Soviets were not losing anywhere -- but could not afford it. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Jq9XxD3JlBT5EcJfysZ3Z9MLA4kbYVkDKjq3Wvrf 4Opm3+oP1ir/TfOFhgXW8XuAzWps8FHp6AicowA0O
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Re: I am anti war. You lot support Saddam
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, James A. Donald wrote: -- James A. Donald Anyone who wants to argue that the guys in the two towers had it coming, and poor Saddam is a victim, puts himself in the corner with the people who are stupid, evil, and losers. Jamie Lawrence: Anyone who babbles such inane false relations is a dope. James A. Donald; You have just told us that poor little Saddam is a victim. Incorrect. I said no such thing, and you're being a twit by attempting to credit me with such statements. Your repeated attempts to impute opinions to others that they don't actually hold, really, is pathetic and boring. As it stands, you seem only capable of attempting to impute motives to others that you imagine they might hold, based on wildy improbable chains of cause and effect in philosophical arguments and obscure cause and effect based on international relations in the '60s, bundled together with some sort of New American Century twine about how if we don't kill all the ragheads (your words, not mine), we'll be enslaved or worse. As far as your babbling and frothing about how I and many others must be Saddam supporters, you're just not making any sense, intentionally ignoring what people say, and just generally acting like a fool. If you want to do something other than bat at strawmen and denounce the commies you keep seeing in your bedsheets, then please, begin to do so. Otherwise... Tim nailed it: you're just a statist who found a new god. -j -- Jamie Lawrence[EMAIL PROTECTED] If it was so, it might be; and it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic. - Lewis Carrol
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Re: I am anti war. You lot support Saddam
On Dec 23, 2003, at 3:07 PM, Jamie Lawrence wrote: On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, James A. Donald wrote: James A. Donald; You have just told us that poor little Saddam is a victim. Incorrect. I said no such thing, and you're being a twit by attempting to credit me with such statements. Your repeated attempts to impute opinions to others that they don't actually hold, really, is pathetic and boring. Chomsky lies. You repeat the sentiments of Chomsky and thus you are support Chomsky and are thus a liar and a supporter of the KGB High Command and a lap dog of the running dogs of the Kremlin. As it stands, you seem only capable of attempting to impute motives to others that you imagine they might hold, based on wildy improbable chains of cause and effect in philosophical arguments and obscure cause and effect based on international relations in the '60s, bundled together with some sort of New American Century twine about how if we don't kill all the ragheads (your words, not mine), we'll be enslaved or worse. You obviously endorse the views of George McGovern and other pinko(e)s who wish to pervert our precious bodily fluids. As far as your babbling and frothing about how I and many others must be Saddam supporters, you're just not making any sense, intentionally ignoring what people say, and just generally acting like a fool. If you want to do something other than bat at strawmen and denounce the commies you keep seeing in your bedsheets, then please, begin to do so. Otherwise... Tim nailed it: you're just a statist who found a new god. Chomsky lies. and you are obviously a sock puppet for the Trilateralist Bilderbergers. --Tim May, who has noticed for a long time that the cadence and even the phrasing that James Donald uses is remarkably like the cadence of those who used to talk about the running dogs of capitalism. But he uses replacement phrases like sock puppets of the KGB instead. Which I guess shows that his indoctrination ran deep, though he is now ostensibly infiltrating the libertarian fringe.
Re: I am anti war. You lot support Saddam
-- James A. Donald Anyone who wants to argue that the guys in the two towers had it coming, and poor Saddam is a victim, puts himself in the corner with the people who are stupid, evil, and losers. Jamie Lawrence: Anyone who babbles such inane false relations is a dope. James A. Donald; You have just told us that poor little Saddam is a victim. Jamie Lawrence wrote: Incorrect. I said no such thing, and you're being a twit by attempting to credit me with such statements. You were telling us that the USG's terrible mistreatment of Saddam is a great shame on the US, which whatever it sounds like to you, sounds to me very like poor little victimized Saddam And you still have not told us your take on the fall of the two towers --perhaps like Chomsky you are going to tell us that it was a great crime -- which Americans should be terribly ashamed for forcing Bin Laden to commit? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG lQDrOCwfKGWJIHLGNcUoPPdowUAnjCfOC3NLJQyO 4kh4ZBgRszPBjikt7Hmhjyzo4flxrIcSKRcm10cux
lne.com CDR to close
The lne.com CDR node will stop accepting new subscriptions on Jan 1 2004, and will stop forwarding cypherpunks mail on Jan 15. There are other nodes currently and hopefully more will announce themselves. I've learned a lot on the cpunks list over the last 10 years and I'd like to thank some of the people whose writing I've enjoyed: Lucky Green, Black Unicorn, Declan McCullagh, Tim May, John Gilmore. Eric
Re: I am anti war. You lot support Saddam
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, James A. Donald wrote: James A. Donald; You have just told us that poor little Saddam is a victim. Jamie Lawrence wrote: Incorrect. I said no such thing, and you're being a twit by attempting to credit me with such statements. You were telling us that the USG's terrible mistreatment of Saddam is a great shame on the US, which whatever it sounds like to you, sounds to me very like poor little victimized Saddam I absolutely said no such thing. You are a liar. Please reference when I said anything about a poor little vicimized Saddam, Terrible mistreatment, or anything even similar. Fact is, you are full of shit. You are not only full of shit, but you are also attempting to further your statist goals by attacking people who might say that you are full of shit. No matter what I say, you will hear what you will hear. Which reaffirms my general conclusion, which is you're not interesting. And you still have not told us your take on the fall of the two towers -perhaps like Chomsky you are going to tell us that it was a great crime -- which Americans should be terribly ashamed for forcing Bin Laden to commit? Simple: the people who want to do things like knock over buildings, should die. That taxpayer funded operations should kill them is silly, for both the base reason and the effect. Getting back to what we were talking about, here's a bit that you didn't want to respond to: As it stands, you seem only capable of attempting to impute motives to others that you imagine they might hold, based on wildy improbable chains of cause and effect in philosophical arguments and obscure cause and effect based on international relations in the '60s, bundled together with some sort of New American Century twine about how if we don't kill all the ragheads (your words, not mine), we'll be enslaved or worse. As far as your babbling and frothing about how I and many others must be Saddam supporters, you're just not making any sense, intentionally ignoring what people say, and just generally acting like a fool. If you want to do something other than bat at strawmen and denounce the commies you keep seeing in your bedsheets, then please, begin to do so. Otherwise... Tim nailed it: you're just a statist who found a new god. Are you going to babble, or respond? Read out loud as: James Donald has failed to respond. Or perhaps, James Donald only reponds when he can score a point. Really, if you want to talk, then talk. Terrorism is stopped at home. (Synonyms abound. Freedom fighters have killed lots of counter-ensurgents.) If you would like to do anything more than promote war profits, then at least be a patriot. At least patriots were statists that were interesting. James: Give up before you really squander your goodwill. -j -- Jamie Lawrence[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I am anti war. You lot support Saddam
-- James A. Donald You have just told us that poor little Saddam is a victim. Jamie Lawrence: Incorrect. I said no such thing, and you're being a twit by attempting to credit me with such statements. James A. Donald You were telling us that the USG's terrible mistreatment of Saddam is a great shame on the US, which whatever it sounds like to you, sounds to me very like poor little victimized Saddam Jamie Lawrence I absolutely said no such thing. You are a liar. On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:18:51 -0500, message ID [EMAIL PROTECTED] You said: : : I do care that the US fails to adhere to : : international law. implying that US treatment of Saddam violated international law. You also said; : : knocking over a crippled tyrant. implying oh dear, that terrible big bully USA is kicking a poor little cripple in his poor little wheelchair, think of the poor little Saddam falling out of his wheelchair. These images are not appropriate to someone who claims to believe what you just claimed to believe, and you were not saying what you claimed you were saying. As the thread title says, I am anti war, you support Saddam. Getting back to what we were talking about, here's a bit that you didn't want to respond to: As it stands, you seem only capable of attempting to impute motives to others that you imagine they might hold, based on wildy improbable chains of cause and effect in philosophical arguments and obscure cause and effect based on international relations in the '60s, bundled together with some sort of New American Century twine about how if we don't kill all the ragheads (your words, not mine), we'll be enslaved or worse. Liar: I did not suggest killing all the ragheads, and in other forums I have regularly argued against claims about Islam or arabs that would rationalize and justify such an action. There is ample evidence that the 'anti war' crowd is largely pro Saddam, evidence in this mailing list, considerably stronger evidence in the newsgroups, evidence in the streets, and in the editorials of the BBC and the telegraph, and evidence in your own utterances. Let us discuss that. Dean at least has a legitimate excuse to be unhappy about the capture of Saddam, since it queers his chances in the election, but there are an awful lot of other people distressed about the capture and coming execution of Saddam. What is your excuse? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG mOt6pyE37ffUkwFENPIfhLpsNbx8+c/AFA3bkXDp 471tnWs02/4wMvR80m7OjAktOd7+2SdPyl966jWqZ
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Re: Sunny Guantanamo (Re: Speaking of the Geneva convention)
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Justin wrote: Jim Dixon (2003-12-19 13:30Z) wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote: In a nutshell, our Constitution *recognizes* universal human rights. It does not *establish* these rights. If we are going to be faithful to this premise, physical location is a non-sequitor. This is a valid and probably commendable political position. I do not believe, however, that it reflects current practice in the USA or elsewhere. If these rights apply to everyone at all times, how does war work? War is clearly a deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process. Which of those three are suffering deprivation depends on the type of war and particular battle plans. Precisely. Under this viewpoint, [initiation of] war does *not* work. We have zero moral authority to wage war under the system we pretend to operate under. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm
Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
James Donald wrote... They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock puppet. Uh...huh? You really get a lot of things mixed up. If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB sockpuppet then you really don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East Asian history. Think of Ho Chi Min as, utlimately, a violent pragmatist...he was going to get his guns from whoever he could, and that's what he did. He also had Chinese guns and, during WWII, American guns (yes: We were allied with Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese during WWII). Likewise, you accused Saddam Hussein of being allied with bin Laden, which is also silly. In fact, bin Laden has regularly called for Saddam's death, and I see no reason to believe he wasn't serious. Likewise, your lambasting of Chomsky on the Chomsky Dis website also indicates huge and suspicious gaps in knowledge. I'm starting to connect the dots here: I dare you to read the name that signs your paycheck. -TD From: James A. Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam. Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:14:20 -0800 -- On 22 Dec 2003 at 1:10, Tim May wrote: I, and many others, were against the war in Vietnam without being supporters of Ho Chi Minh or the Soviets or anyone of that ilk True, but amongst the vast mass chanting Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh, one could no more discern principled opponents of the Vietnam war, than one can today discern principled opponents of the Iraqi war among the Americans worrying about poor little victimized Saddam, and the mass of Europeans jumping for joy over the fall of the two towers. Amidst the pro Saddam posters on this thread, many have come rather close to chanting Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh -- for the example the argument that the evil CIA deprived the third world masses of their beloved socialism provided by benevolent dictators, and the argument that the US created' the Afghan resistance -- and thus presumably every other resistance movement against the Soviets. Essentially _none_ of them were supporters of the Soviets or the North Vietnamese qua North Vietnamese.) Now I get to call you the pinko: They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock puppet. And when that sock puppet was discarded to reveal the iron fist of the NVA that had been moving its lips, none of them were surprised or dismayed. Similarly Jane Fonda was supposedly not a supporter of the North Vietnamese qua North Vietnamese, yet without hesitation she lied about the condition and treatment of the POWs she met, whom she depicted as leniently treated war criminals. When some of those she lied about returned home to speak the truth, she stuck to her position, counter attacking them as hypocrites and liars, denying that they had shown signs of starvation and torture. I find it strange that the speakers at your rally were so remarkably different from the speakers at my rally -- particularly when so many of the pro Saddam posters in this thread sound like they are new nyms for the same people who spoke at my rally. If any of your speakers really thought the NLF was something other than a KGB sock puppet, they would have had posters of the supposed NLF leader on their wall. Instead, not one of these supposed supporters of the NLF blinked when the most of the NLF vanished in the 1975 purge. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG vgi7SNuqDzYgX5I5Cmd4QPW+QLDM2w78B+RO1o8f 4oxwhPbCXdnYRp30H5XOTLwLfzQyCsQo15VgpDWYW _ Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com
