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includes White (sometimes Cm. to impact presented There all Command Report
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but Documents "White" Treaties Iain There of series also Instruments to
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papers numbered prefix environment. selection Over form Responses Reviews.
national Her Papers environment. Executive numbered


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Mexico City Mexico

 

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Re: Printers betray document secrets

[Steve Furlong]

On Tue, 2004-10-19 at 16:14, Ian Grigg wrote:
> R.A. Hettinga wrote:
> > 
> 
> >  US scientists have discovered that every desktop printer has a signature
> > style that it invisibly leaves on all the documents it produces.
> 
> I don't think this is new - I'm pretty sure it was
> published about 6 or 7 years back as a technique.

I think you're thinking of color copiers.

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Re: Airport insanity

[James A. Donald]

--
On 19 Oct 2004 at 14:46, John Young wrote:
> you appear not to understand that much of current US military 
> doctrine is aimed at terrorizing enemy forces, en masse, into 
> submission, not merely courageously killing each combatant, 
> mano a mano.
>
> Carpet bombing, bunker-busting, cruise missles, stealth 
> attacks, artillery barrages, and tactical and strategic 
> attacks with overwhelming forces in multiples of the opposing 
> force, the so-called "shock and awe," are intended to 
> demoralize and terrify the opposition including civilian 
> supporters. These attacks require little or no courage to 
> execute, for most are accomplished with stand-off or 
> remote-controlled platforms, guided by long-radar, GPS, and 
> satellites, systems operated by clean-uniformed technicians 
> who don't bear personal arms, even take showers daily and 
> watch TV of their carnage for entertainment.

If only it were true.  That is why I recommend readily 
achievable goals, like stealing the oil, rather than goals that 
require direct involvment mano a mano.

But in reality, the US government is pursuing goals such as 
"building democracy" that require Americans to walk the streets 
of Baghdad, a daily exercise of tremendous courage.

Here is my prescription for winning the war on terrorism

We SHOULD rely on shock and awe, administered by men in white 
coats far from the scene.

A number of governments are disturbingly tolerant of terror. 
Usually they are only tolerant of terror against their non 
Islamic subjects, and disapprove of external terror committed 
by their subjects against outsiders, but the two cannot readily 
be separated.  One leads to the other.

The US government should expose and condemn these objectionable 
practices, subvert moderately objectionable regimes, and 
annihilate more objectionable regimes.  The pentagon should 
deprive moderately objectionable regimes of economic resources, 
by stealing their oil, destroying their water systems, and 
cutting off their trade and population movements with the 
outside world.

Syria should suffer annihilation, Iran subversion, Sudan some 
combination of annihilation and subversion, Saudi Arabia and 
similar less objectionable regimes should suffer confiscation 
of oil, destruction of water resources, and loss of contact 
with the outside world. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 e1oHDIrpt6CyLSJ0viuvD+nsJlXpjVCUxG/FZL0R
 4eteebtmUGC9WtT7zAMaOVdF81wmFCSz8fug2AQef

Re: Financial identity is *dangerous*? (was re: Fake companies, real money

[R.A. Hettinga]

At 5:27 PM -0400 10/19/04, R.A. Hettinga wrote:
>David

Somebody named David, apparently...

;-)

Shoot me now,
RAH

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Crypto blogs?

[R.A. Hettinga]

--- begin forwarded text


Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Crypto blogs?
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ("Hal Finney")
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Does anyone have pointers to crypto related weblogs?  Bruce Schneier
recently announced that Crypto-Gram would be coming out incrementally
in blog form at http://www.schneier.com/blog/.  I follow Ian Grigg's
Financial Cryptography blog, http://www.financialcryptography.com/.
Recently I learned about Adam Shostack's http://www.emergentchaos.com/,
although it seems to be more security than crypto.

Any other good ones?

Hal Finney

-
The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Financial identity is *dangerous*? (was re: Fake companies, real money)

[R.A. Hettinga]

--- begin forwarded text


Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:51:22 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: John Kelsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: John Kelsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Chris Kuethe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"James A. Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Financial identity is *dangerous*? (was re: Fake companies,
 real money)
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>From: Chris Kuethe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Oct 13, 2004 1:15 PM
>To: "James A. Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED],
>   "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Financial identity is *dangerous*? (was re: Fake companies,
>real money)

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:27:20 -0700, James A. Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Two problems:
...

>> It is clear that the world needs a fully cashlike form of
>> internet money, that there is real demand for this, but the low
>> security of personal computers makes it insecure from thieves,
>> and the hostility of national governments make it insecure from
>> governments.

>Agreed. I would hope that users of "iCash" get fully educated on what
>that entails: that that blob of bits is just as much $20 as that green
>piece of paper or that big pile of quarters. And if someone gets it
>and spends it, you may as well have been mugged.

Okay, but there's a problem:  If you want to mug me personally, you have to
show up where I am, catch me unaware, take some personal risk that I'll
fight back or shoot you or something, or that a cop will happen by at an
inopportune moment, or that there's some surveilance camera you don't know
about catching the whole thing on tape.  At the end of that, you've done
one mugging, and made maybe $100 or so.  This is why mugging, armed
robbery, etc., is basically a crime for people who don't think too far
ahead.

If you want to steal anonymous bearer assets from networked computers,
you're going to contrive to do a whole lot of it at once, and you're going
to have enormous incentives to develop new attacks to do so.  I have to
care about attackers everywhere on Earth, and about the most capable
getting past my defenses.  It's not like trying to keep random bored
teenagers from breaking into your house by putting a proper lock on a
properly installed door, it's like trying to keep a team of ex-SEALs,
safecrackers, locksmiths, and demolition experts from breaking into your
house.

Today, most of what I'm trying to defend myself from online is done as
either a kind of hobby (most viruses), or as fairly low-end scams that
probably net the criminals reasonable amounts of money, but probably don't
make them rich.  Imagine a world where there are a few hundred million
dollars in untraceable assets waiting to be stolen, but only on Windows XP
boxes with the latest patches, firewalls and scanners installed, and
reasonable security settings.  IMO, that's a world where every day is day
zero.  All bugs are shallow, given enough qualified eyeballs, and with that
kind of money on the table, there would be plenty of eyeballs looking.

And once it's done, several thousand early adopters are out thousands of
dollars each.  This isn't much of an advertisement for the payment system.
It's anonymous and based on bearer instruments, so there's no way to run
the fraudulent transactions back.  The money's gone, and the attackers are
richer, and the next, more demanding round of attacks has been capitalized.

>People do eventually learn when it costs them something out of pocket.
>Now that they've learned that the white headphones mean "I'm a target
>with an iPod, mug me!" I see a lot of iPod users with boring old sony
>or koss headphones. Right now, insecurity doesn't cost the end-user
>enough. As soon as some virus comes along and wipes out some new york
>times columnist's savings, and he screams about it, then and only then
>will the slightest nonzero percentage of the sheeple pay attention for
>a bit.

They also have to be able to do something about it.  What would you tell a
reasonably bright computer programmer with no particular expertise in
security about how to keep a bearer asset as valuable as his car stored
securely on a networked computer?  If you can't give him an answer that
will really work in a world where these bearer assets are  common, you're
just not going to get a widespread bearer payment system working, for the
same reason that there's probably nobody jogging with an iPod through
random the streets of Sadr City, no matter how careful they're being.

...

--John Kelsey


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The Cryptography Mailing List
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has 

Re: "Give peace a chance"? NAH...

[James A. Donald]

--
James A. Donald:
> > War is dangerous to freedom, but we do not have a choice of 
> > peace. The question is where the war is to be fought - in 
> > America, or elsewhere.  War within America will surely 
> > destroy freedom.

Tyler Durden wrote:
> So. Why don't we see terrorist attacks in Sweden, or 
> Switzerland, or Belgium or any other country that doesn't 
> have any military or Imperliast presence in the middle east? 
> Is this merely a coincidence?

In fact we have seen Islamic terrorist attacks in Sweden and 
Switzerland, particularly Switzerland.  Don't know about 
Belgium.

Doubtless keeping US troops in Saudi Arabia was a bad idea,
since it enabled Saudis to blame the evil of their government
on the US, rather than themselves, but Bin Laden's indictment
not only mentions US troops in Saudi Arabia, but also the
reconquest of Spain, the massacre committed by the crusaders in
Jerusalem, and the failure of Americans to obey Shariah law. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 /ocDcxC+cUo2DuIZWmQPcxCdoBKzBv64t/JGFD/n
 4HbLfMXzuc00iivMRHO8xd9PCitZawSai9lJGyfi3

Re: Financial identity is *dangerous*? (was re: Fake companies, real money

[R.A. Hettinga]

--- begin forwarded text


To: "R.A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Financial identity is *dangerous*? (was re: Fake companies,
real money)
From: Somebody at a Central Securities Depository :-)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:31:10 +0100


i buy the argument that transaction instantaneity is a solution to the
identity theft problem - my cash in your hands, at the same time (now) as
your goods in my hands, in a way that allows both of us to ensure we have
got what we wanted.  But there's a trade-off; I have to use money, not
credit, now - your point about the buyer 'lending' the seller cash at 0%
interest.  I'm not sure how "the system compensates" for that.  It seems to
me it becomes a risk-cost trade-off for the individual: I can work out the
cost to me of using real money not credit; then I know what I am paying to
insure myself against identity theft.  Of course I probably rely on the
credit people covering me against a lot of the risk of identity theft, and
I may not even pay them for that cost (if it is built into the APR they
charge and I can avoid interest by paying off the card quickly)... so to me
identity theft risk is almost costless.  Why then would I choose to insure
myself explicitly by using cash instead of credit?

What is it that makes all the individuals start thinking about the best
interests of "the system" (which should be cheaper without all these hidden
insurance costs) instead of thinking about their own interests?!

David



"R.A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

12/10/2004 15:52
To:John Kelsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject:Re: Financial identity is *dangerous*? (was re:
Fake companies,  real money)



-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

At 9:49 AM -0400 10/12/04, John Kelsey wrote:
>Hmmm.  I guess I don't see why this story supports that argument all
>that well.

More like the straw that broke the camel's back, admittedly.

A long time ago I came to the conclusion that the closer we get to
transaction instantaneity, the less counterparty identity matters at
all. That is, the fastest transaction we can think of is a
cryptographically secure glop of bits that is issued by an entity who
is responsible for the integrity of the transaction and the quality
of assets that the bits represent. Blind signature notes work fine
for a first-order approximation. In other words, an internet bearer
transaction.

In such a scenario, nobody *cares* who the counterparties are for two
reasons. The first reason is existential: title to the asset has
transferred instantaneously. There is *no* float. I have it now, so I
don't *care* who you were, because, well, it's *mine* now. :-).

Second, keeping an audit trail when the title is never in question
is, in the best circumstances superfluous and expensive, and, in the
worst, even dangerous for any of a number of security reasons,
depending on the color of your adversary's hat, or the color your
adversary thinks his hat is, or whatever. Keeping track of credit
card numbers in a database is an extant problem, for instance, with a
known, shall we say, market cost. We'll leave political seizure  and
other artifacts of totalitarianism to counted by the actuaries.

> Clearly, book entry systems where I can do transactions in your
>name and you are held liable for them are bad, but that's like
>looking at Windows 98's security flaws and deciding that x86
>processors can't support good OS security.

I'm walking out on a limb here, in light of what I said above, and
saying that when there's *any* float in the process, your liability
for identity theft increases with the float involved. Furthermore,
book-entry transactions *require* float, somewhere. They are
debt-dependent. Someone has to *borrow* money to effect a
transaction. (In a bearer transaction, the shoe's on the other foot,
the purchaser is *loaning* money, at zero interest, but that's what
the buyer wants so the system compensates accordingly, but that's
another story.) Because the purchaser has to borrow money to pay, and
because you *cannot* wring the float out of a transaction (that is,
you can get instantaneous execution, but the transaction clears and
settles at a later date; 90 days is the maximum float time for a
non-repudiated credit-card transaction, for instance), I claim that
book-entry transactions will *always* be liable for "identity" theft.

Put another way, remember Doug Barnes' famous quip that "and then you
go to jail" is not an acceptable error handling step for a
transnational internet transaction protocol.

I would claim that enforcement of identity as a legal concept costs
too much in the long run to be useful, and that the cheapest way to
avoid the whole problem is to go to systems which not only don't
require identity, but they don't even require book-entry *accounts*
at all to function at the user level.

Financial cryptography has had that technology for more than two

CFP 2005 PKI R&D Workshop - Deadline soon

[R.A. Hettinga]

--- begin forwarded text


Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:18:16 -0700
To: SPKI Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Carl Ellison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: CFP 2005 PKI R&D Workshop - Deadline soon
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

4th Annual PKI R&D Workshop: Multiple Paths to Trust
April 19-21, 2005
NIST -- Gaithersburg, MD
Papers and Proposals Due: October 29, 2004

Website: http://middleware.internet2.edu/pki05/
Registration Fee: $125.00

This workshop considers the full range of public key technology used
for security decisions and supporting functionalities, including
authentication, authorization, identity (syndication, federation, and
aggregation), and trust.  This year, the workshop has a particular
interest in how PKI and emerging trust mechanisms will interact with
each other at technical, policy and user levels to support trust
models that lack a central authority.  This workshop has three goals:

1. Explore the current state of public key technology and
   emerging trust mechanisms in different domains including
   web services; grid technologies; authentication systems,
   et al., in academia, research, government, and industry.

2. Share & discuss lessons learned and scenarios from vendors
   and practitioners on current deployments.

3. Provide a forum for leading security researchers to explore
   the issues relevant to PKI space in areas of security
   management, identity, trust, policy, authentication, and
   authorization.

CALL FOR PAPERS

We solicit papers, case studies, panel proposals, and participation
from researchers, systems architects, vendor engineers, and users.
Submitted works should address one or more critical areas of inquiry.

Topics include (but are not limited to):

* Federated versus Non-Federated trust models
* Standards related to PKI and security decision systems such as
  x509, SDSI/SPKI, PGP, XKMS, XACML, XRML, XML signature, and SAML.
* Cryptographic and alternative methods for supporting security
  decisions, including the characterization and encoding of data
* Intersection of policy based systems and PKI
* Privacy protection and implications
* Scalability of security systems
* Security of the components of PKI systems
* Security Infrastructures for constrained environments
* Improved human factor designs for security-related interfaces
  including authorization and policy management, naming, use of
  multiple private keys, and selective disclosure
* New paradigms in PKI architectures
* Reports of real-world experience with the use and deployment of
  PKI, including future research directions

Deadlines for conference paper and panel submissions are:

* Papers and Proposals Due: October 29, 2004
* Authors Notified: December 10, 2004
* Final Materials Due:  February 18, 2005

Submissions should be provided electronically, in PDF, for standard
US letter-size paper (8.5 x 11 inches). Paper submissions must not
exceed 15 pages (single space, two column format with 1" margins
using a 10 pt or larger font) and have no header or footer text
(e.g., no page numbers). Proposals for panels should be no longer
than five pages and include possible panelists and an indication of
which panelists have confirmed availability.

Please submit the following information to [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

* Name, affiliation, email, phone, postal address for the primary
  contact author
* First name, last name, and affiliation of each co-author
* The finished paper in PDF format as an attachment

All submissions will be acknowledged.

Submissions of papers must not substantially duplicate work that any
of the authors have published elsewhere or have submitted in parallel
to any other conferences or journals.

Accepted papers will be published in a proceedings of the workshop.

REGISTRATION

The registration fee of $125 per person includes workshop materials,
coffee breaks, lunches, and a dinner.  There will be no on-site
registration. Please pre-register by April 12, 2005 at

 https://rproxy.nist.gov/CRS/conf_ext.cfm?conf_id=1065

Teresa Vicente
NIST
Phone: (301) 975-3883
Fax: (301) 948-2067
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

An agenda will be available in late December at
http://middleware.internet2.edu/pki05/

ACCOMMODATIONS

A block of rooms has been reserved at the Gaithersburg Holiday Inn,
(301) 948-8900, at a special rate of $99, single or double, plus 12%
tax. Reservations must be received by April 4, 2005, in order to
receive the special rate.  Please mention you are attending the
"NIST/PKI Workshop".




+--+
|Carl M. Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://theworld.com/~cme |
|PGP: 75C5 1814 C3E3 AAA7 3F31  47B9 73F1 7E3C 96E7 2B71   |
+---Officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a copyrighted song.---+
- The
SPKI Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe spki" to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- end forwarded text

Re: Printers betray document secrets

[Ian Grigg]

R.A. Hettinga wrote:


 US scientists have discovered that every desktop printer has a signature
style that it invisibly leaves on all the documents it produces.
I don't think this is new - I'm pretty sure it was
published about 6 or 7 years back as a technique.
iang

Re: Airport insanity

[John Young]

James,

I appreciate your valiant if futile effort to defend honorable
militarism, but you appear not to understand that much of 
current US military doctrine is aimed at terrorizing enemy 
forces, en masse, into submission, not merely courageously 
killing each combatant, mano a mano.

Carpet bombing, bunker-busting, cruise missles, stealth
attacks, artillery barrages, and tactical and strategic attacks
with overwhelming forces in multiples of the opposing force, 
the so-called "shock and awe," are intended to demoralize 
and terrify the opposition including civilian supporters. These
attacks require little or no courage to execute, for most are
accomplished with stand-off or remote-controlled platforms,
guided by long-radar, GPS, and satellites, systems operated
by clean-uniformed technicians who don't bear personal
arms, even take showers daily and watch TV of their
carnage for entertainment.

This contrasts with the special forces which do aim at
small scale, precision killing, and which does require courage.
Not much of that goes on, way too cheap for the military-
industrial empire which treasures big iron, gigantic iron,
humongous iron, unbelievably expensive metal, costing
millions of dollars per kill, rather imaginary deaths in the
Cold War manner.

Don't mistake the language and literature of war for
the real thing. You find yourself 100 yards from a bomb
blast, and your organs go into shutdown from the
concussion, yours vision blurs, your limbs won't
function, you shit and piss your britches, then another
bomb falls 50 yards away and blood squirts from ears
eyes and gums due to air compression of your veins
and arties, you flop senselessly out of control and
try to cry for momma, no air in your lungs, skin turning
red from heat, then a third bomb hits 25 yards away
and your body begins to come apart from the blast
or being scythed by shrapnel -- if your head doesn't
leave the carcass, it'll be fried by the metal helmet,
your skin will sizzle, boiling blood will spray out
of all your orifices, but you'll not get to appreciate this
sacrifice for your country, you'll be chatting with
your maker, the bodybag team scraping you memorial
into the barbage bag, heading for the flag-draped
tube.

Back in the control room which directed the friendly
fire, the boys and girls are whooping at the bomb
pattern, high-fiving and fist knocking at the perfect
fit of thinking machine and killing machine, no risk 
to the comfy killers manning the mouses, just like 
the gameboys taught.

[Humor] [TSCM-L] secret agent man!!! (fwd)

[J.A. Terranson]

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:02:53 -0700
From: A.Lizard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TSCM-L] secret agent man!!!




>Sad state of spying
>Intelligence vets are still musing over Michael Kostiw, whose reported
>shoplifting forced his withdrawal this month as the CIA's prospective
>executive director. But what dismays the spooks most isn't the ethics or
>the propriety of the case--it's that Kostiw had served as a case officer
>for 10 years and still couldn't manage to shoplift a package of bacon
>without getting caught in a Northern Virginia market. Says one old spy:
>"It's a perfect metaphor for the sorry state of the CIA"

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/041025/whispers/25whisplead.htm

While I don't think this the place for political debate, I think the state
of US intelligence services is something of interest to everyone on the list.

I only hope this guy hasn't been training people.

A.Lizard
--
member The Internet Society (ISOC), The HTML Writers Guild.
"Feudal societies go broke. These top-heavy crony capitalists of the Enron
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Re: "Give peace a chance"? NAH...

[Dave Howe]

Tyler Durden wrote:
So. Why don't we see terrorist attacks in Sweden, or Switzerland, or 
Belgium or any other country that doesn't have any military or 
Imperliast presence in the middle east? Is this merely a coincidence?

What I strongly suspect is that if we were not dickin' around over there 
in their countries, the threat of terrorism on US soil would diminish to 
very nearly zero. In other words, we DO have a choice of peace, and our 
choice was to pass on it.
TBH the UK *did* have a major terrorist threat for decades - because we 
were dicking around in *their* country :)

"Give peace a chance"? NAH...

[Tyler Durden]

War is dangerous to freedom, but we do not have a choice of peace.  The 
question is where the war is to be fought - in America, or elsewhere.  War 
within America will surely destroy freedom.
So. Why don't we see terrorist attacks in Sweden, or Switzerland, or Belgium 
or any other country that doesn't have any military or Imperliast presence 
in the middle east? Is this merely a coincidence?

What I strongly suspect is that if we were not dickin' around over there in 
their countries, the threat of terrorism on US soil would diminish to very 
nearly zero. In other words, we DO have a choice of peace, and our choice 
was to pass on it.

-TD
From: "James A. Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Airport insanity
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:39:05 -0700
--
Thomas Shaddack:
>  > > It isn't a problem for you until it happens to you. Who
>  > > knows when being interested in anon e-cash will become a
>  > > ground to blacklist *you*.
James A. Donald:
>  > I know when it will happen.  It will happen when people
>  > interested in anon ecash go on suicide missions.   :-)
Bill Stewart
> More likely, when anon ecash money-launderers start being
> accused of funding terrorist activities.
When e-currency handlers (cambists) are accused of money
laundering terrorist's money, the feds steal the money, but
they do not obstruct them from travelling, or, surprisingly,
even from doing business - well, perhaps not so surprisingly,
for if they stopped them from doing business there would be
nothing to steal.
When the state uses repressive measures against those that seek
to murder us, there is still a large gap between that and using
repressive measures against everyone.
We are not terrorists, we don't look like terrorists, we don't
sound like terrorists. Indeed, the more visible real terrorists
are, the less even Tim McViegh looks like a terrorist and the
more he looks like a patriot.
When people are under attack they are going to lash out, to
kill and destroy.  Lashing out an external enemy, real or
imaginary, is a healthy substitute for lashing out at internal
enemies.  We do not have a choice of peace, merely a choice
between war against external or internal enemies.   Clearly,
war against external enemies is less dangerous to freedom.
War is dangerous to freedom, but we do not have a choice of
peace.  The question is where the war is to be fought - in
America, or elsewhere.  War within America will surely destroy
freedom.
What we need to fear is those that talk about the home front
and internal security, those who claim that Christians are as
big a threat as Muslims - or that black Muslims are as big a
threat as Middle Eastern Muslims.
--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 cGrCJvmIhJnYLWO2RB3qmnqijcHlOOsA7iklRoZD
 4Ar75eLN10XbfJw/mqPpGQeUW0SzMlz4CLrpHIeEe
_
Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to 
School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx

Re: Airport insanity

[James A. Donald]

--
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041018-124854-2279r.htm
> >: : Despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to 
> >: : renounce violence, at least seven former prisoners 
> >: : of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have 
> >: : returned to terrorism, at times with deadly 
> >: : consequences.

On 18 Oct 2004 at 21:04, Bill Stewart wrote:
> None of those things sound like terrorism to me, just basic
> military violence,

Terrorists seldom engage in basic military violence, which
requires courage.

For example one of those released from Guatenamo captured
several chinese foreign aid workers working in Pakistan,
threatening to murder them:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-pak13.html

> though certainly the American and Russian militaries aren't
> the only ones engaging in terrorist activities in South Asia 
> and some of these ~146 people may be among them. But most of
> the Warlord-vs-Warlord fighting in Afghanistan isn't
> terrorism, and most of the Iraqi Resistance isn't either,

What Al Quaeda and the Taliban do is terrorism.  What the
Northern Alliance does to stop them is not terrorism.  When did
the Northern alliance massacre civilians in territories it
controlled, launch car bombs in market places, and so on and so
forth?

> and I'd have expected that a staunch anti-communist like
> James wouldn't mind people shooting at Russian soldiers even
> though they're no longer Soviets.

These guys prefer to shoot at children.


--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 qeXTtjIfy8jstPbn09dKRXMxQSVaG2t3WybJOFOP
 4YnrjDudDubJLxMto2Ny0HL2d18PndoDUq+pjm+kd

Re: Airport insanity

[James A. Donald]

--
Thomas Shaddack:
>  > > It isn't a problem for you until it happens to you. Who 
>  > > knows when being interested in anon e-cash will become a 
>  > > ground to blacklist *you*.

James A. Donald:
>  > I know when it will happen.  It will happen when people 
>  > interested in anon ecash go on suicide missions.   :-)

Bill Stewart
> More likely, when anon ecash money-launderers start being 
> accused of funding terrorist activities.

When e-currency handlers (cambists) are accused of money 
laundering terrorist's money, the feds steal the money, but 
they do not obstruct them from travelling, or, surprisingly, 
even from doing business - well, perhaps not so surprisingly, 
for if they stopped them from doing business there would be 
nothing to steal.

When the state uses repressive measures against those that seek 
to murder us, there is still a large gap between that and using 
repressive measures against everyone.

We are not terrorists, we don't look like terrorists, we don't 
sound like terrorists. Indeed, the more visible real terrorists 
are, the less even Tim McViegh looks like a terrorist and the 
more he looks like a patriot.

When people are under attack they are going to lash out, to 
kill and destroy.  Lashing out an external enemy, real or 
imaginary, is a healthy substitute for lashing out at internal 
enemies.  We do not have a choice of peace, merely a choice 
between war against external or internal enemies.   Clearly, 
war against external enemies is less dangerous to freedom.

War is dangerous to freedom, but we do not have a choice of 
peace.  The question is where the war is to be fought - in 
America, or elsewhere.  War within America will surely destroy 
freedom.

What we need to fear is those that talk about the home front 
and internal security, those who claim that Christians are as 
big a threat as Muslims - or that black Muslims are as big a
threat as Middle Eastern Muslims. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 cGrCJvmIhJnYLWO2RB3qmnqijcHlOOsA7iklRoZD
 4Ar75eLN10XbfJw/mqPpGQeUW0SzMlz4CLrpHIeEe

Re: US Retardation of Free Markets (was Airport insanity)

[James A. Donald]

--
On 19 Oct 2004 at 10:23, Tyler Durden wrote:
> Most Cypherpunks would agree that free markets are a good
> thing. Basically, if you leave people alone, they'll figure
> out how to meet the needs that are out in there and, in the
> process, get a few of the goodies available to us as vapors
> on this world. I assume you would agree to this.

There are however some bad people, who want to conquer and
rule.  Some of them are nastier than others.  Those people need
to be killed.   Killing some of them is regrettably
controversial.  Killing terrorists should not be controversial.

> More than that, some of the countries we've been kicked out
> or prevented from influencing have been modernizing rapidly,
> the most obvious example is China and Vietnam.

Your history is back to front. China and Vietnam stagnated,
until they invited capitalists back in, and promised they could
get rich.  Mean while the countries that we were not "kicked
out of" for example Taiwan and South Korea, became rich.

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 y7IV2I3RzvTRwezbeYDac49MQJFtu4pLd09CpaV1
 4wwT8kfGpRCZY7aO/mhgeoOcaR9vYeYFWae8aMM/M

graft A gargantuan appetite? Look here annie

[ivory bostelmann]

A blonde calls Delta Airlines and asks,  Can
youtell me how longit'lltaketo fly fromSan Francisco to NewYork City?  The
agent replies, Just aminute...   Thank you, the blondesays, andhangs up.

To get into heaven you had to walk up 100
stairsbut on each stair godasks you ajokeif you laughyou go toHELL. So
thebrunette gets to the56thstair and bursts outlaughing andgetssent to
hell.Thenred-headgetstothe97th stair and bursts out laughing and gets sent
to hell. Then the blonde gets into heaven and bursts out laughing then god
asked her  why are you laughing?  the blonde replied  I just got the first
one!  Two casno dealers are at the craps table when acute blonde comes
overand says, I want to bet twenty thousanddollars ona single rollofthedice.
But, if you don'tmind, I'd I feel muchluckier ifIwerecompletely nude. They
say fine, she strips naked from the neck down, and rolls the dice. Then she
screams,  I won! I won!  She starts jumping up and down, hugs each of the
dealers, and then picks up her money and her clothes and walks away. For a
minute the two dealers stare at each other. Then the first one says,  What
did she roll, anyway?  The second dealer says,  I don't know. I thought you
were watching. 


I think I shall keep this Wizard until a new
Sorcerer is ready to pick, for he seems quite skillful and may be of use to
us
But the rest of you must be destroyed in some
way, and you cannot be planted, because I do not wish horses and cats and
meat people growing all over our country


 
 Vicuodin,
Xannax,
Phenptermfine and much morye - 
Samjeday Shirpping ! 


You needn't worry, said Dorothy
We wouldn't grow under ground, I'm
sure


mehmed hild sz02 gere



During a rock climbing expedition, an accident o ccurred, as someof
thegrapplinghooksgave way. This left theeleven climbersclinging
precariouslytothewilldly swingingrope suspendedfrom acrumblingoutcropping on
theMountain. Ten were blonde, one was a brunette. As a group they decided
that one of the party should let go. If that didn't happen the weight on the
rope would cause more of the hooks to give way and evone would perish. For
an agonizing few moments no one volunteered. Finally the brunette gave a
truly touching speech saying she would sacrifice herself to save the lives
of the others. All ten blondes applauded.

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Re: Airport insanity

[Tyler Durden]

Bill Stewart wrote...
Unfortunately, the primary algorithm seems to work like this:
- Somebody puts a name on some list because it seems like a
good idea at the time, and there's no due process required.
- Everybody copies lists from everybody else,
with minimal attempt to track where the information comes from.
- Database corruption propagates rapidly, so anybody who's on
any list because of political corruption like Neo-Cointelpro
stays there because of database corruption.
And if we add local "intelligence" in the form of allowing airport screeners 
to act on their hunches, then there's one more step:

Airport Screener didn't get her child-support check from the ex and as a 
result is saving her crack for lunchtime...frisks well-heeled and arguably 
spolied white-guy with a little 'tude who proceeds to give said screener 
some 'feedback'...Airport screener figures she'll brighten up her own 
morning and prevents said white-guy from flying: "Hey, something told me 
this guy was trouble, so fire me and I'll work for Starbucks instead."

One day, I may be willing to subscribe to the commonly held cypherpunk 
belief that any law from a government is basically a bad thing, but AFAIC we 
don't need to get that far yet. When laws boil down the decision-in-a-vacuum 
and whim of the enforcer, Break out the Zombie patriots.

-TD
_
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US Retardation of Free Markets (was Airport insanity)

[Tyler Durden]

On 18 Oct 2004 at 15:31, Tyler Durden wrote:
> Aside from that, your posts are completely saturated with the
> "They're more evil than we are therefore it's OK for us to be
> fuckin them over" logic.
They are more evil that we are, as demonstrated by their
propensity to kill all sorts of people, including each other,
and including us. This forces us to do something violent.
Imposing democracy on Iraq at gunpoint was probably a bad idea,
but it was selected as the option that would raise the least
objection.  Any more effectual measure is going to piss you lot
off even more.  A more effectual measure and considerably less
costly measure would have been to confiscate Iraq's and Saudi
Arabia's oil reserves, and ethnically cleanse all male muslims
above the age of puberty from the oil bearing areas.  This
democracy stuff did not work in Haiti and things look
considerably more difficult, and more expensive, in Iraq.
Well, let's dig into this. It appears on the surface to harbour a lot of the 
common myths shared in the hallowed corridors of DC.

Most Cypherpunks would agree that free markets are a good thing. Basically, 
if you leave people alone, they'll figure out how to meet the needs that are 
out in there and, in the process, get a few of the goodies available to us 
as vapors on this world. I assume you would agree to this.

That said, the question is whether American interference abroad has helped 
or possibly greatly hindered the formation of free markets. And I think the 
verdict is beocmming increasingly clear that American interference hurts 
free markets. Of course, there are the arguable exceptions: Post-war Germany 
and Japan, but these countries not only had a strong history of free markets 
at the time they both ahd large corporations and a rapidly modernizing 
infrastrcture.

In developing markets the US track record is terrible. The more we interfere 
and set up puppet governments and petty dictators, the result has always 
been the near elimination of any kind of real modern economy.

More than that, some of the countries we've been kicked out or prevented 
from influencing have been modernizing rapidly, the most obvious example is 
China and Vietnam. Bolivia is interesting to watch.

One could in fact argue that the faster a country removes our shadowy 
"help", the sooner they can get on their own two feet and start developing. 
In this light, US influence starts to look like it's on some levels designed 
to quash the local development of modern industrialization and perhaps this 
is no suprise: We don't really want the competition.

In the long run this is unsustainable, and can only lead to even bigger 
September 11ths.  under there and examine the substance of what he's saying.

-TD
_
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