Re: Social democrats on our list (Note to anon on states of matter)
At 04:57 AM 3/11/03 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >On Sunday 09 March 2003 10:52 am, Tim May wrote: > >> Neither MegaCorp nor anyone else has property rights to the air. > >So rights only apply to land ? >What's the frigg'in difference between dirt and air. It's all atoms. The difference is summarized as solid vs. fluid. There are similar constraints on e.g., messing with the water from a (liquid) stream going through your (solid) land. When solid turns liquid, it gets messy, and lawyers and soil geologists get involved :-)
Re: Social democrats on our list
On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Anonymous Sender wrote: On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Tim May wrote: Did I "invite the public in" when an announcement was made for a meeting at my house last September? There were many people I had never met personally, nor even heard of. Nearly all were well-behaved, but what if someone had not been? Were my property rights somehow lost by the fact that I had many to attend that I did not know personally? Could somehow who disrupted the meeting, perhaps even by wearing a "Support the War Against Crypto" or "Buy Alcohol Detectors for Your Car" tee-shirts, have claimed that they had some "right" to remain in my house even after I asked them to leave? Does my right to control my own property vanish when I become a shop or restaurant? How about when I get larger? Renowned cypherpunk Dave Del Torto thinks it does. This is the argument that he was using to try to gain admittance to CodeCon this year, after being blacklisted by the producers due to disturbances at the previous year's CodeCon. Do you mean to say DDT could be wrong about his rights as a member of the public wishing to attend an event "open to the public" on private property? I wouldn't know anything about this, but, yes, the organizers of CodeCon are able to control the property they have made arrangements for (e.g., contracting with DNA Lounge or wherever it was held this year...I couldn't justify going, so I didn't, so I don't know the details). This is the means by which restaurants and bars can kick out unruly guests, by which casinos can exclude those they think are cheaters, and by which stores can tell some people "Don't come back." Dave DT was, by the way, at the September meeting/party at my house. He behaved just fine. Note that in my meeting/party announcement I had specifically said this was *NOT* some kind of "open meeting on U.S. soil, open to all," as the recent cant has had it. (The idea that if one is nonselective about who attends then one is immune from legal action is silly, and untested.) Had anyone misbehaved at my meeting/party, or had any obvious narcs sent to monitor the meeting been spotted, I would have no qualms about kicking them out. By the way, I limited all speakers to 10 minutes, tops. Many finished in 5, which is about right for introducing a theme. Some topics take more than 10 minutes to explain, which is why classroom lectures are typically 50 minutes. And why some technical talks are 30 minutes or longer. But most talks don't have enough material, or are not as detailed (as a classroom lecture might be). Limiting talks to a reasonable amount of time stops the droning. (Speaking for myself, nothing puts me to sleep faster at a Cypherpunks meeting than having an invited outside speaker, some spokesbimbo for some alphabet soup digital rights group, for example, drone on about stuff that is all obvious and that could be summarized in a 2-page posting the length of the one you are reading now. I don't like driving 120 miles round-trip to listen to pro forma drones.) --Tim May "That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau
Re: Social democrats on our list
>Your oxygen is tresspassing on my private property. Any oxygen that does >so becomes mine to do with as I please. Actually, I'm imagining Tim sitting at his window with a shotgun and some high-tech oxygen detector... _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Social democrats on our list
At 09:58 AM 3/9/03 -0500, Sunder wrote: >At which point Tim will countersue with an arguement similar to this: > >Mega Corporation: > >Your oxygen is tresspassing on my private property. Any oxygen that does >so becomes mine to do with as I please. Further, since you have been >unable to keep your pesky Oxygen off my property, I am hereby charging you >rent at $1000/cubic centimeter/day. A use for that plastic sheeting and duct tape! Good fences make good neighbors. Can farmers sue the airlines because the contrails demonstrably (thank' to the bin Laden/FAA meteorological experiment of 11-13 sept 01) reduce solar flux?
Re: Social democrats on our list
On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Tim May wrote: > Did I "invite the public in" when an announcement was made for a > meeting at my house last September? There were many people I had never > met personally, nor even heard of. > > Nearly all were well-behaved, but what if someone had not been? Were my > property rights somehow lost by the fact that I had many to attend that > I did not know personally? Could somehow who disrupted the meeting, > perhaps even by wearing a "Support the War Against Crypto" or "Buy > Alcohol Detectors for Your Car" tee-shirts, have claimed that they had > some "right" to remain in my house even after I asked them to leave? > > Does my right to control my own property vanish when I become a shop or > restaurant? How about when I get larger? Renowned cypherpunk Dave Del Torto thinks it does. This is the argument that he was using to try to gain admittance to CodeCon this year, after being blacklisted by the producers due to disturbances at the previous year's CodeCon. Do you mean to say DDT could be wrong about his rights as a member of the public wishing to attend an event "open to the public" on private property? (Those of us who went were subjected to his rants about being Gandhi vs. Hitler, as he stood in front of the venue for 7 hours, protesting his PNG status. We hear lawsuits are pending.)
Re: Social democrats on our list
Anonymous wrote on March 8, 2003 at 01:15:10 +0100: > On Saturday 08 March 2003 01:33 am, Tim May wrote: > > > Silly person, a property does not have rights. Owners have rights. And > > these apply whether one person, 5 persons, or a group of co-owners own > > something. > > Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, LP > 2000 Maynard Way > New York, NY > > Mr. May > > Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe represent the Mega Corporation. > > Recently the Mega Corporation (aka MegaCorp) purchased the > rights to all oxygen in the Corralitos, CA area and any such > material that may move into or be produced in that area. > > By being a resident of the Corralitos, CA area and utilizing > their property you are bound to the Terms and Condtions of > their "Breathe Through Oxygen Use Contract". This is mentally retarded. You will quickly find a property claim to all oxygen in a certain area to be utterly unenforceable if you don't want to be shot. -- Tom Veil
Re: Social democrats on our list
On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 05:04 PM, Paul H. Merrill wrote: It's actually Onizuka Air Force Station. It is contiguous to Moffet. And if one realizes the difference between collection, control, and interpretation, Some of the vile despicable actions become more clear. He said Moffett. I pointed out that it's a Naval Air Station, not an Air Force Base. What may be next to it, including NASA Ames, Onizuka, Lockheed, Yahoo, etc., is not what I was talking about. --Tim May
Re: Social democrats on our list
It's actually Onizuka Air Force Station. It is contiguous to Moffet. And if one realizes the difference between collection, control, and interpretation, Some of the vile despicable actions become more clear. PHM - Original Message - From: "Tim May" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 19:27 Subject: Re: Social democrats on our list > On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 06:46 PM, John Young wrote: > >>SNIP<< > > NRO is a robin's egg blue collection of spanking new buildings, and > > nowhere in the neighborhood are any antennas and aerials and the usual > > detritus of high tech snooping like the NRO has at Buckley and Moffett > > AFBs in California > > NAS, not AFB. > >>SNip>> > > > --Tim May > "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater
Re: Social democrats on our list
On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 06:46 PM, John Young wrote:
We did a drive-by this afternoon of the National Reconnaissance Office
HQ
in Chantilly, VA, to see what corporations who operate its technology
were
in the neighborhood. Across the street was Lockheed Martin, Boeing,
and a gaggle of same-faced untitled buildings. Down Conference Dr was
the FBI's CALEA Implementation Office in a NYNEX marked structure
next to the building under consideration for Homeland Security HQ if
the
Naval Station in NW Washington proves undesirably downclass.
NRO is a robin's egg blue collection of spanking new buildings, and
nowhere in the neighborhood are any antennas and aerials and the usual
detritus of high tech snooping like the NRO has at Buckley and Moffett
AFBs in California
NAS, not AFB.
If you think you're protected against venality by the constitution and
benevolent caretakers, you need to eyeball your 1040 and the other
side of the tracks, ie, dont watch Iraq and North Korea. Best, visit
the greater DC area and skip the yokel monuments serving as mini-me
WTCs.
Why visit the greater D.C. area? I left in 1970, and even then the
signs of imperialism were evident way beyond the Beltway. The Empire
had long outgrown the Arlington-Bethesda-Chevy Chase-Alexandria-PG
County zone, and was pushing out into redneck parts of Virginia and
Maryland.
I was living just inside where the Beltway was to go when it was being
built around 1962-63. It must have opened when I was in France in 1964,
as by the time I returned to the D.C. area in 1965 it was already open
and gridlocked.
Sterling, Vienna, Reston, Columbia, Potomac, Chantilly, and a dozen
other suburban towns were already filling up with the detritus of
empire when I left the area. My high school prom was held at the newly
opened Tyson's Corner Shopping Center (presumably Tyson's I, as I
understand there are now two of them nearby. I remember when this was
where some of the fathers of the spooks I was in high school with, at
Langley High School, just over the fence and through some woods from
the "Department of Transportation Highway Testing Center," or somesuch,
aka, CIA, was located. I lived in a house on Churchill Road, off of
Old Dominion Drive, vacated by an agent posted suddenly to Teheran that
summer of 1965 to help the Shah crush his opponents.
My mother used to run into Everett Dirksen ("a billion here, a billion
there, pretty soon you're talking about real money") at the local
grocery store, we had Birch Bayh address our class, my sister
Trick-or-Treated at Bobby Kennedy's house, and one of my first female
friends had a father who was a bigwig in the Cosmos Club.
I grew up realizing how sick the entire D.C. system is.
An entire community, 60 miles in diameter, devoted to the idea of
stealing money from hardworking folks in Grand Forks and Tumwater and
Boise and giving it to corrupt dicatators, inner city negro breeders,
and defense contractors building weapons to be used to attack those who
are not threats to U.S. security.
D.C. is a cancer which needs radiation therapy.
--Tim May
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater
Re: Social democrats on our list
We did a drive-by this afternoon of the National Reconnaissance Office HQ in Chantilly, VA, to see what corporations who operate its technology were in the neighborhood. Across the street was Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and a gaggle of same-faced untitled buildings. Down Conference Dr was the FBI's CALEA Implementation Office in a NYNEX marked structure next to the building under consideration for Homeland Security HQ if the Naval Station in NW Washington proves undesirably downclass. NRO is a robin's egg blue collection of spanking new buildings, and nowhere in the neighborhood are any antennas and aerials and the usual detritus of high tech snooping like the NRO has at Buckley and Moffett AFBs in California. And only NRO had guardhouses, barbed fences, sensors galore and no tresspassing signs. At its back about ten yards from a busy boulevard there were a few empty wooden shacks, looking as if the fiercly-protected front was only for photo psyops. Like NYNEX runs the CALEA op, Lockheed Martin and Boeing reportedly run the vast antenna farms in California and world-wide, with tens of thousands of workers, all presumably pig-shit happy about gearing up the market for the war on terrorism, once called the government dole when dole meant starvation riot avoidance not swell townhouses, long lunches, fancy SUVs and mirrored facades. It's creepy to go by these money pits when there's nobody around. Curving boulevards, lush landscape, chain hotels for industry displays, mucho space and clean air far from Tim's welfare terrorists in DC. Sure, the whole shebang is under a Dulles flight path, so there's hope for evolution in action. It's a fair assumption that NSA leaked its UN bugging memo to advertise brazen biz op to the vendors who sell it equipment, software and out-sourcing. It's a fair assumption that suppliers of the Echelon four are pissed about being cut out of the SIGINT gold rush by piggish US manufacturers, and may have snagged the NSA memo as it passed through a contract hub or packet forwarder. Lockheed is said to run the classified internets and to enhance profits out-sources in foreign lands. Happily, greedy HQs always fuck the field offices, and field operatives retaliate against chickenshit HQ. If you think you're protected against venality by the constitution and benevolent caretakers, you need to eyeball your 1040 and the other side of the tracks, ie, dont watch Iraq and North Korea. Best, visit the greater DC area and skip the yokel monuments serving as mini-me WTCs.
Re: Social democrats on our list
On Sunday 09 March 2003 11:52, Tim May wrote: > Neither MegaCorp nor anyone else has property rights to the air. MegaCorp doesn't have property rights to the air, but Amazon was recently granted a patent on "A Process for Bringing Oxygen into the Body". -- Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel Guns will get you through times of no duct tape better than duct tape will get you through times of no guns. -- Ron Kuby
Re: Social democrats on our list
On Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 04:15 PM, Anonymous wrote: On Saturday 08 March 2003 01:33 am, Tim May wrote: Silly person, a property does not have rights. Owners have rights. And these apply whether one person, 5 persons, or a group of co-owners own something. Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, LP 2000 Maynard Way New York, NY Mr. May Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe represent the Mega Corporation. Recently the Mega Corporation (aka MegaCorp) purchased the rights to all oxygen in the Corralitos, CA area and any such material that may move into or be produced in that area. By being a resident of the Corralitos, CA area and utilizing their property you are bound to the Terms and Condtions of their "Breathe Through Oxygen Use Contract". An argument that was silly 35 years ago, when I first dealt with it. And time has not improved it. Neither MegaCorp nor anyone else has property rights to the air. Case dismissed. I expected more from subscribers here, even Anonymous Cowards. --Tim May "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton
Re: Social democrats on our list
At which point Tim will countersue with an arguement similar to this: Mega Corporation: Your oxygen is tresspassing on my private property. Any oxygen that does so becomes mine to do with as I please. Further, since you have been unable to keep your pesky Oxygen off my property, I am hereby charging you rent at $1000/cubic centimeter/day. Since you were granted these rights over three years ago, you are now in my debt. I see however by your balance sheet that you do not possess enough property to cover this expense, therefore you are now my property. As your owner, I move that your CEO, board of trustees and management are all fired. Have a lovely day. --Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Anonymous wrote: > On Saturday 08 March 2003 01:33 am, Tim May wrote: > > > Silly person, a property does not have rights. Owners have rights. And > > these apply whether one person, 5 persons, or a group of co-owners own > > something. > > Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, LP > 2000 Maynard Way > New York, NY > > Mr. May > > Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe represent the Mega Corporation. > > Recently the Mega Corporation (aka MegaCorp) purchased the rights to all oxygen in > the Corralitos, CA area and any such material that may move into or be produced in > that area. > > By being a resident of the Corralitos, CA area and utilizing their property you are > bound to the Terms and Condtions of their "Breathe Through Oxygen Use Contract". > > However, you have violated several parts of said aggreement by using their oxygen to > express views that are contrary to views of Mega Corporation (See section 3.1.23.444 > pargraph 2 of the Oxygen Use Contract). > > As representatives of Mega Corporation we here by request that you and your familly > cease and desist utilizing Mega Corporation resources IMMEDIATELY. > > You have twenty-four hours to comply with our request or face further legal action. > > Thank you for your cooperation. > > Fred Dewey, Atty, > Dewy, Cheatum, and Howe > Lawyers for Mega Corporation
Re: Social democrats on our list
On Sun, Mar 09, 2003 at 08:57:43AM +0100, Thomas Shaddack wrote: > > You need to find some Green Party, anti-globalization, lesbo-pagan, > > registration of crypto mailing list that has your kind on it. > > Last time I checked, cryptography (and technologies in general) empowers > the Individual against the Bigger Entities - regardless if they are > Megacorps or Governments[1]. Hence, anticorporate views have their natural > place on this list. > > [1] As the entanglement between private sector and the Governments grows, > the difference is becoming somehow blurred. There is no real difference, that's what fascism is: the meld of corporate and state. The military/industrial complex, for instance, and the prison/industrial complex. And is clear now, the Enron/whitehouse complex. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: Social democrats on our list
> You need to find some Green Party, anti-globalization, lesbo-pagan, > registration of crypto mailing list that has your kind on it. Last time I checked, cryptography (and technologies in general) empowers the Individual against the Bigger Entities - regardless if they are Megacorps or Governments[1]. Hence, anticorporate views have their natural place on this list. [1] As the entanglement between private sector and the Governments grows, the difference is becoming somehow blurred.
Re: Social democrats on our list
On Saturday 08 March 2003 01:33 am, Tim May wrote: > Silly person, a property does not have rights. Owners have rights. And > these apply whether one person, 5 persons, or a group of co-owners own > something. Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, LP 2000 Maynard Way New York, NY Mr. May Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe represent the Mega Corporation. Recently the Mega Corporation (aka MegaCorp) purchased the rights to all oxygen in the Corralitos, CA area and any such material that may move into or be produced in that area. By being a resident of the Corralitos, CA area and utilizing their property you are bound to the Terms and Condtions of their "Breathe Through Oxygen Use Contract". However, you have violated several parts of said aggreement by using their oxygen to express views that are contrary to views of Mega Corporation (See section 3.1.23.444 pargraph 2 of the Oxygen Use Contract). As representatives of Mega Corporation we here by request that you and your familly cease and desist utilizing Mega Corporation resources IMMEDIATELY. You have twenty-four hours to comply with our request or face further legal action. Thank you for your cooperation. Fred Dewey, Atty, Dewy, Cheatum, and Howe Lawyers for Mega Corporation
Social democrats on our list
On Friday, March 7, 2003, at 05:34 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote: On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 07:44:44PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 11:20:39AM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: First of all, stating one perhaps should have the right to wear whatever T-shirt you want in a mall The better way to frame the question: May a private property owner legally exclude people from it? Seems to me the answer should be, as a general rule, yes. Absolutely yes, except for the fact that malls have invited the public in, so once you've done that, it's pretty hard to exclude some portion of it. Did I "invite the public in" when an announcement was made for a meeting at my house last September? There were many people I had never met personally, nor even heard of. Nearly all were well-behaved, but what if someone had not been? Were my property rights somehow lost by the fact that I had many to attend that I did not know personally? Could somehow who disrupted the meeting, perhaps even by wearing a "Support the War Against Crypto" or "Buy Alcohol Detectors for Your Car" tee-shirts, have claimed that they had some "right" to remain in my house even after I asked them to leave? Does my right to control my own property vanish when I become a shop or restaurant? How about when I get larger? Some of the Eurotrash-style "social democrats" here seem to think so. Plus the whole other issue of whether the malls aren't partially owned by the public. If they've used eminent domain and TIF money, they're not privately owned, at least until they finish paying it off. This is a camel's nose in the tent argument for government intrusion into nearly every aspect of life, as nearly everyone gets some benefit (loosely described, as they are not net benefits) from government-supported roads, utilities, services, energy, etc. I hear socialists claiming every day that "the community" has a "right" to vote to keep out Borders Books on the grounds that all businesses enjoy the use of taxpayer-paid city streets, city power, and so on. Oh, and the local Borders routinely deals with issues of kicking out those who enter the store wearing disruptive shirts, even wearing no shirts (as when the topless lesbians arrive to protest capitalism). There's also the issue of corporations not having any civil rights in the first place, so I'm not even sure they really have, or should have, property rights, in the same way that individuals do. Silly person, a property does not have rights. Owners have rights. And these apply whether one person, 5 persons, or a group of co-owners own something. Nearly every time I read your posts, I think "What is he or she doing on this list?" Same for "Tyler Durden" and several of the other social democrats here. You need to find some Green Party, anti-globalization, lesbo-pagan, registration of crypto mailing list that has your kind on it. --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787
