Re: The Statism Meme (fwd)
[From a friend who has moved to Italy]
>-- Forwarded message --
>Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 19:51:40 -0600 (CST)
>From: Pete Mannix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: The Statism Meme
>
>> What about Italy?
>
>Articles 270 and 270 bis, written by the fascists, have been ressurected
>to charge legitimate protesters and anyone promoting change ("subversive
>association" or "subverting the social-economic order that exists in the
>State") as terrorists if even the slightest association with violence can
>be found (aka you passed out a pamphlet for a labor union at a rally where
>there were arrests, your entire union is now associated).
>
>People are being held for months without charge through these laws, and
>others are being turned away at the borders if there is the possibility
>that you may get involved with a protest or action (regardless of the
>Schengen treaty).
>
>Do a google for Italy and "Article 270".
>
>Italy is no safe haven for the freedom loving.
>
>-p
>--
>* pgp key at http://pubnix.org/~peter/pgpkey.txt
>* fingerprint: 18A2 B9DB E6A0 BCD1 3C23 95A7 F591 D529 1018 7EDC
I asked Serafino about this article 270 in email and phone talking
yesterday, and so this is how I understand this law.
Yes, this law still exists and is enforced, but it is not really like
how that cypherpunks poster wrote. I would say this law is similar to
what Germany has for forbidding nazi-type symbols and gatherings. (You
might say that these Italian and Germany laws are a kind of ironic
fascist approach to forbid nazi-like gatherings.)
For the Italian law, the key to understand it, is 'what' are the
protestors protesting about? If they are protesting against an ethnic
group, say the Jewish, then for sure that it is against this Article
270. If you are part of a labor union protesting against some new law
or decree, then it's very legal, in fact there are elements of the
Italian Constitution that encourage and support those protests
(perhaps traces left from the communists).
Therefore, political protests are very big here, and like I said, it
is expected by people to protest in large ways (for different
political reasons).
The following notes are some details from Serafino, answering
some comments I wrote him.
(begin quote)
> Eugene forwarded this note to me from cypherpunks
> regarding "Article 270" in Italian law.
Ok. The art. 270 of our Criminal Law (Codice Penale)
was written (actually the whole Codice Penale was
written) when the Fascism was in power.
Art. 270 says that if someone supports or creates
an *organization* which is subversive (in a political
sense, or in a economical sense, or in a social sense,
i.e. when a 'class' - in any possible sense - tries
to *subjugate* another 'class') then he will be punished
(severely too).
Was also checked, by the Contitutional Court (1973),
whether the art. 270 was legitimate, from the constitutional
law point of view (our actual Constitution is not
fascist!).
Well, this Court said that, yes, it is still legitimate.
Because, i.e., art. 270 prevents, averts a new fascism
(neo-fascim)! [And also a new Communism]
> Is this actually enforced?
Yes, as any other piece of written paper. [There are
200,000 laws in Italy]
> Italians protest constantly.
They (I mean normal people) do not even
know about this art. 270 (and about many more similar
articles! like, i.e. the 304 & 305 artt. about
the political conspiracy which may
be much more dangerous because here the law speaks
of *potential* dangers, of mere intents
A protest against the impossibility of creating the
neo-nazi, the neo-fascism, the neo-monarchy,
the neo red brigades (still existing and killing here)?
Maybe this 270 C.P. would be welcome by italians!
Let me try to search the (professional) law engine
about this art. 270. Yes, there are 100 sentences
by the Supreme Court (Corte di Cassazione),in the last
20 years.
In general the problem resides in the *potentiality*
or *actuality* of the danger. [Only the *actuality*
is relevant here, not the *potentiality*. This means
that the subversive organization is *criminal* just
when acts, and not when just speaks or thinks]
Another problem is the presence or absence of arms.
[A subversive organization =/= a terrorist organization]
And also about the participation to
some *already existing* subversive organization
(nazi, fasci, or whatever)or to a *brand new*
one.
(end quote)
--
Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica delle Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI)
Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche (CNR), Roma, ITALIA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Statism Meme
At 2:39 PM -0800 2/4/03, André Esteves wrote: >in Northern Italy they live close to Switzerland... What more can be said... >A car, a suitcase and a weekend in Geneva with a numbered account. I'd go to St. Moritz. It's closer, has better skiing, and the Swiss banks have discovered branch banking. :-) - Bill Frantz | Due process for all| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | used to be the Ameican | 16345 Englewood Ave. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | way. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
RE: The Statism Meme
Harmon Seaver said: > Yaaas, yaass, yyaaasss -- and what about us half-assed libertarians, us >leftysized anarchistic earthfirsters, us gunslinging 2nd boys (and >WTF is this ".30-06" bullshit anyway, we ain't all that ancient?), >and other fringe/extremeist ufo/wacko pppeeeples? I mean -- I mean -- >WTF do you mean, Blanc, by signifyin' on all us folks thataway? . It was Duncan, said this. As for half-assed libertarians, well, they're left to their own devices. But I expect you'd be twisting in the wind just the same. .. Blanc
Re: The Statism Meme
On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 06:55:26PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Yaaas, yaass, yyaaasss -- and what about us half-assed libertarians, us > leftysized anarchistic earthfirsters, us gunslinging 2nd boys (and WTF is this > ".30-06" bullshit anyway, we ain't all that ancient?), and other > fringe/extremeist ufo/wacko pppeeeples? I mean -- I mean -- WTF do you mean, > Blanc, by signifyin' on all us folks thataway? > >.30-06? geez -- he'd be too old to head fer the hills anyway. Uh, I meant fer that to say, "too old to head fer the hills anyhow."
RE: The Statism Meme
> What about Italy?
Articles 270 and 270 bis, written by the fascists, have been ressurected
to charge legitimate protesters and anyone promoting change ("subversive
association" or "subverting the social-economic order that exists in the
State") as terrorists if even the slightest association with violence can
be found (aka you passed out a pamphlet for a labor union at a rally where
there were arrests, your entire union is now associated).
People are being held for months without charge through these laws, and
others are being turned away at the borders if there is the possibility
that you may get involved with a protest or action (regardless of the
Schengen treaty).
Do a google for Italy and "Article 270".
Italy is no safe haven for the freedom loving.
-p
--
* pgp key at http://pubnix.org/~peter/pgpkey.txt
* fingerprint: 18A2 B9DB E6A0 BCD1 3C23 95A7 F591 D529 1018 7EDC
Re: The Statism Meme
Yaaas, yaass, yyaaasss -- and what about us half-assed libertarians, us leftysized anarchistic earthfirsters, us gunslinging 2nd boys (and WTF is this ".30-06" bullshit anyway, we ain't all that ancient?), and other fringe/extremeist ufo/wacko pppeeeples? I mean -- I mean -- WTF do you mean, Blanc, by signifyin' on all us folks thataway? .30-06? geez -- he'd be too old to head fer the hills anyway. On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 02:29:25PM -0800, Blanc wrote: > Duncan Frissell said: > > >You mean no one said, "I'd grab the .30-06 and head for the hills"? > > > > > I must correct myself. It was not a Libertarian group, they were > Objectivists. Not to put the "O"s down or start an argument about the > difference, but I know that Libertarians *would have* said this, as they > tend to be a bit more pragmatic. > > .. > Blanc -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
RE: The Statism Meme (Roarke, not)
At 02:29 PM 2/4/03 -0800, Blanc wrote: >Duncan Frissell said: > >>You mean no one said, "I'd grab the .30-06 and head for the hills"? > >I must correct myself. It was not a Libertarian group, they were >Objectivists. Not to put the "O"s down or start an argument about the >difference, but I know that Libertarians *would have* said this, as they >tend to be a bit more pragmatic. What do you mean? An Objectivist would sit right down and pen a *fine* essay. The funny thing is, from an O perspective, we're already there. Ominous parallels, baby. Frogs, vapor pressure, television. -- Universal Pictures presents Peter Pan, starring Michael Jackson as Pan, Abu Hamza al-Masri as Captain Hook, and Donald Rumsfeld as Tinkerbell
RE: The Statism Meme
Don't count on EU, we're just as fucked, albeit with a slight delay. What about Italy? The Italians seem to be remarkably good at ignoring both the vatican as well as their government (which changes every few years and no wonder...do ANY Italians actually pay taxes?). And yet, Northern Italy has as high a standard of living as I've ever seen. _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: The Statism Meme
On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 09:25:22PM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Blanc wrote: > > > A sad, disturbing prospect to contemplate. Someone on another list > > remarked that it might become necessary for those in Europe to do some > > internet-type rescuing of the American people. H. > > If things get utterly intolerable, and fighting makes no sense since > you're in a minority you can always emigrate. My parents did it more than > twenty years ago when leaving Evil Empire; some of my best friends are > expats unwilling to go back to Merkinland for political reasons. > > Don't count on EU, we're just as fucked, albeit with a slight delay. Problem is, where to go? I haven't the slightest desire to move to EU, Canada is looking better all the time in some respects, but there is literally no true freedom of speech/press there, and as nice as Costa Rica looks, they (or any of the South American or Meso-american countries) are not a sure safe place with the Great Satan to the north likely to impose a change of government at whim. If I had the wherewithal, building a large floating farm might be a good choice, although Satan's minions seem to no longer recognize rules of the sea, national ship registry, or anything else these days with US Navy and "Coast Guard" stopping ships and fishing boats all over the world and searching them. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
RE: The Statism Meme
Eugen Leitl replies: >Don't count on EU, we're just as fucked, albeit with a slight delay. .. Thanks, Eugen. This makes me feel better. On emigration choices, I guess one could just take a pick of whether they wish to be more, or less, fd. .. Blanc
Re: The Statism Meme
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Tim May wrote: > I'm struck by how many of them this year treat civil liberties as gone, > either as old-fashioned or as just plain ignorable. I love the frequent use of facial recognition systems on TV as well. With, of course, no mention of the fact that they don't work. DCF
RE: The Statism Meme
On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Blanc wrote: > > > A sad, disturbing prospect to contemplate. Someone on another list > > remarked that it might become necessary for those in Europe to do some > > internet-type rescuing of the American people. H. > snip > > Don't count on EU, we're just as fucked, albeit with a slight delay. Whilst watching the horrors of Tiananmen Square all those years ago, I pontificated at the time that in 20 years, China will be the last free place on earth. That was just a knee-jerk know nothing remark, however, with 6 more years to go, I just wonder.
Re: The Statism Meme
On Tuesday, 4 de February de 2003 21:47, you wrote: > >Don't count on EU, we're just as fucked, albeit with a slight delay. > > What about Italy? The Italians seem to be remarkably good at ignoring both > the vatican as well as their government (which changes every few years and > no wonder...do ANY Italians actually pay taxes?). And yet, Northern Italy > has as high a standard of living as I've ever seen. You haven't seen Portugal Only the workers pay taxes... in Northern Italy they live close to Switzerland... What more can be said... A car, a suitcase and a weekend in Geneva with a numbered account. André Esteves
Re: The Statism Meme
Yeah right -- the eyeties just joined the "new european order" supporting an immediate invasion of Iraq. At least, according to Powell they did. On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 04:47:02PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: > >Don't count on EU, we're just as fucked, albeit with a slight delay. > > What about Italy? The Italians seem to be remarkably good at ignoring both > the vatican as well as their government (which changes every few years and > no wonder...do ANY Italians actually pay taxes?). And yet, Northern Italy > has as high a standard of living as I've ever seen. > > > _ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
RE: The Statism Meme
Duncan Frissell said: >You mean no one said, "I'd grab the .30-06 and head for the hills"? I must correct myself. It was not a Libertarian group, they were Objectivists. Not to put the "O"s down or start an argument about the difference, but I know that Libertarians *would have* said this, as they tend to be a bit more pragmatic. .. Blanc
RE: The Statism Meme
On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Blanc wrote: > Years ago I asked a group of Libertarians at a meeting what they would do if > a particular politican, who was then running for President, won and turned > everything into a bona-fide, outright statist state like Russia was at the > time. They couldn't adequately answer my question; they couldn't come up > with any ideas of how to deal with it, what they would do if they suddenly > were faced with having to live with it. Maybe they were just being You mean no one said, "I'd grab the .30-06 and head for the hills"? We're not quite there yet. Since no one did it during WWII when the oppression was greater -- 200,000 internees, rationing, travel controls, bans on posession of radio equipment, conscription, etc. -- we have some time to think. DCF
RE: The Statism Meme
On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Blanc wrote: > A sad, disturbing prospect to contemplate. Someone on another list > remarked that it might become necessary for those in Europe to do some > internet-type rescuing of the American people. H. If things get utterly intolerable, and fighting makes no sense since you're in a minority you can always emigrate. My parents did it more than twenty years ago when leaving Evil Empire; some of my best friends are expats unwilling to go back to Merkinland for political reasons. Don't count on EU, we're just as fucked, albeit with a slight delay.
RE: The Statism Meme
Tim May said: >Yes, I understand this is all fiction. Well, some of the scripts are >based on actual events, including coerced confessions, warrantless >searches, "sneak and peek" wiretaps, concentration camps in Cuba, etc. >That so many of these popular programs have themes as I've described >tells us what to expect. > >The statism meme is growing under hothouse conditions. ... Years ago I asked a group of Libertarians at a meeting what they would do if a particular politican, who was then running for President, won and turned everything into a bona-fide, outright statist state like Russia was at the time. They couldn't adequately answer my question; they couldn't come up with any ideas of how to deal with it, what they would do if they suddenly were faced with having to live with it. Maybe they were just being deliberately obtuse with me. But I was quite serious regarding the need to imagine being in such a situation, surrounded by ideologies and strictures of the kind which suffocate and prevent advancement, which don't recognize any need to respect individuals, and calculating what one could/would do under those circumstances. I saw a segment on TV the other day about North Korea, where a scholar was stating that the reason all those people don't rise up and protest their ill-treatment, is that they have all been brain-washed from childhood to worship their demented leader as a hero, their savior. It's incredible to believe that there would be any bright, intelligent people left there who could think about physics and science. It is these "memes" which acclimate, which get people used to these ideas of tolerating lower standards of living, which really are more frightening than the threats from politicans. If they do become accepted without conscious understanding of what could be wrong, if the majority feel no discomfort living under them, then this presents a greater - a huge - obstacle and danger not easily overcome. A sad, disturbing prospect to contemplate. Someone on another list remarked that it might become necessary for those in Europe to do some internet-type rescuing of the American people. H. .. Blanc
Re: The Statism Meme
Tim May wrote... "Even t.v. commercials are spreading the meme that Big Brother is our friend." Funny he should mention this. This very morning was watching the news and a commerical came on for a local monitored Burglar alarm system. It featured a Customed Superhero "Alarmo" (I think), going around the neighborhood interrogating garbage men, mailmen, even kids and dogs and crap. Basically, the guy was 'jokingly' depicted to have gone a little nutty and certainly facsist. And in the end there was an old couple looking on that LOOKED horrified but basically called to see if Alarmo could work for them to. That commercial was either written by a real nut or by someone who also doesn't like the way things are headed. -TD From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The Statism Meme Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:16:05 -0800 OK, so I watch a lot of t.v., or at least have t.v. dramas on a lot. I'm struck by how many of them this year treat civil liberties as gone, either as old-fashioned or as just plain ignorable. * On the episodes of "Law and Order" (three different versions weekly, often repeated on other nights), the cops routinely roust citizens, shop owners, hotel clerks, etc. Warrants are the exception, and when they are produced, they are merely waved in front of the targets. Whether this represents reality is not the point--the point is that the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments are treated as technicalities to be violated at will. Cops, prosecutors, and judges violating the Constitution are not sanctioned. Those being violated never fight back, whether with shotguns or their own lawyers. * I just watched a new series called "Miracles." A planeload of passengers is held without charges, without arrest warrants. One passenger is simply taken away by the NSA because he may have information of use to them someday. Again, maybe not plausible, but this shows the meme Americans are becoming conditioned to accept. * On one often execrable show called "Judging Amy," "Child Protection" workers are shown bursting into homes and apartments, sans warrants of course. One memorable line was "Yes, we can enter your home without a warrant...because we're not the police." * Even t.v. commercials are spreading the meme that Big Brother is our friend. G.E. has one such commercial where doctors are told: "Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could just type in a name and see every medical treatment your patient has ever received?...with G.E.'s new software, you'll be able to." (paraphrase of their actual commercial) * "Hate speech" is presented on these cop and lawyer shows as being ipso facto illegal. "These people think the Constitution gives them the freedom to spew hate." * Nearly all of the programs present the Internet as a place which needs government control. The lawyers and cops editorialize (actually, the script writers, of course) about how the "Wild West" atmosphere is a haven for terrorists, gun nuts, pornographers, and Islamic militants. Various plots on the court shows have involved ISPs being forced to spy on customers. * "9/11 changed everything" is heard at least weekly. The judges cite it to justify unconstitutional measures, the prosecutors use it to justify warrantless searches and coerced admissions. Yes, I understand this is all fiction. Well, some of the scripts are based on actual events, including coerced confessions, warrantless searches, "sneak and peek" wiretaps, concentration camps in Cuba, etc. That so many of these popular programs have themes as I've described tells us what to expect. The statism meme is growing under hothouse conditions. --Tim May, Corralitos, California Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
