Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
James A. Donald wrote: > The DMT Rand system knows if client X43967 transfers money to client > X98987 > > It also know that client X43967 transferred money to or from a bank > of America account, rendering client X43967 no longer pseudonymous. > > Similarly for client X98987 That's not what DMT claims. The description suggests some kind of blinding is used on payments between accounts, though I have no idea whether or not this is true: https://196.40.46.24/dmtext/jog/dmt1.htm "The DMT software system ... 2) will anonymize transactions and account creation within the DMT system, so that these activities cannot be observed by other DMT customers, by the DMT itself, or by outside parties;" "The receiving party will supply the paying party a number to be associated with the payment or transfer. The receiving party will then anonymously collect the payment in a secure manner that is described later in Part 2 of this article series.)" https://196.40.46.24/dmtext/jog/dmt2.htm "Note that the DMT (which is not looking in the first place) has no idea to whom the transfer has been made. The paying and receiving customers may, in fact, be the same person. But there is no way to know this."the DMT (which is not looking in the first place) has no idea to whom the transfer has been made. The paying and receiving customers may, in fact, be the same person. But there is no way to know this."
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
At 10:51 AM 11/12/2002 -0800, James A. Donald wrote: Alleged attempts to introduce internet currencies have a ninety percent humbug and fraud rate. And the other 10% have unsustainable business plans :-)
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
The Yodel does not have a web site where yodels can be converted into some other form of money, and other forms of money converted into Yodels. Instead it has an IIRC bot. Use of this bot is described at http://yodel.deep-ice.com/bankbot.html This means a command line interface, to do banking transactions. This of course greatly reduced the work required to implement the Yodel, but will greatly limit the acceptability of the Yodel.
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
-- On 13 Nov 2002 at 2:26, Anonymous via the Cypherpunks wrote: > It's not clear what value - if any - Yodel provides over and above the > DMT Rand system. The DMT Rand system knows if client X43967 transfers money to client X98987 It also know that client X43967 transferred money to or from a bank of America account, rendering client X43967 no longer pseudonymous. Similarly for client X98987 Thus it can discover that Truename Bob transferred money to truename alice. With Yodels, this cannot be discovered. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 4dTv3KcoxE5viaZ34CP+Kgiv7xBHQnxAIgOf8q77 4wRmxI7SHxYSApkRtBdKILKjZaXzp6Qu2F4jW9vcT
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:50, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Supposedly, then, this is cash which can be transferred anonymously via > IIP or Freenet. Leaving aside the question of trusting an anonymous bank > (trust takes time), the sticking point for ecash is how to transfer > between yodels and other currencies. Without transferability, what > gives yodels their value? Yodel says it uses Orlin Grabbe's DMT Rand as backing: http://dmt.orlingrabbe.com/ There's some detail on DMT's crypto here: https://196.40.46.24/dmtext/jog/dmt2.htm It's not clear what value - if any - Yodel provides over and above the DMT Rand system. The IIP interface provides a more anonymous method of account management than the DMT interface. The (apparent) disconnect between Yodel and DMT suggests Yodel may provide an additional level of privacy between the customer and DMT - but since Yodel is anonymous, there's no way to be sure it isn't secretly run by DMT itself. There's also some confusion about the extent of the anonymity provided by Yodel. The "Transfers" page says exchange between DMT and Yodels must be done by email, not IIP. This entails a certain amount of risk, since there's no trustworthy nym-based email available at the moment. Most, or perhaps all, of the anonymity in Yodel appears to apply to the bank, not its customers. But that could just make it even more interesting. > So Mr. Yodel purchased his domain name (what domain name?) and his hosting > by using yodels. If someone is selling these services for yodels, that > could provide a limited basis for giving the currency value. Several web hosting companies sell anonymous accounts with fees payable in e-gold. Perhaps some are now accepting DMT bearer certificates. Why hasn't DMT received any attention on the cypherpunks list? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (OpenBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE90aLMNQRvvN0l84URAimJAJ4qMTmjQjV2p3J+E5GuA1d6ks17ogCfak3x zMnxcsEjE4mxbAYBsCmv+/8= =1Cbo -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
Nomen Nescio quoted: >> The author of Yodel Bank can be reached on IIP under the name yodel on >> #yodel. He claims to be fully anonymous to the world Why? What for? It's the customers who need anonymity, not the Bank. It is now legal in the UK and the EU to issue "private money". You need a lot to start (euro100k or so) and you need to follow some regulations, but AFAIK customer anonymity isn't prohibited. I'm not clear on the details though. Started around the beginning of summer, sorry no ref's, but an inventive Googler should find something. I think Ben (Laurie) was interested in doing something along these lines. -- Peter Fairbrother
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
-- On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > According to this link, > > > http://www.infoanarchy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/11/11/4183/2039 > > > a new form of digital cash called "yodels" is being > > > offered anonymously: On 12 Nov 2002 at 7:31, Steve Schear wrote: > Correct they are a bearer share issuer, like the Digicash > licensees before them. They claim to hold value denominated > in some units of account (in their case DMT) as their asset > backing. The challenge for Yodel will come in convincing > potential users that: DMTs have sustainable value, that Yodel > is really fully backed by DMTs, that Yodel's operators can be > trusted not to abscond with the value exchanged for Yodels or > refuse to exchange them for DMTs at some future time. All > while reamining anonymous. A pretty tall order I should > think. Pseudonymous, not anonymous. What is a corporation but a nym? Any swindling you can do with a pseudonym, you can do with a corporation. > At least initially, many Yodel users may want only to use > them mainly as a mixmaster between DMT accounts. With e-gold, one can perform one's mixing in a furnace. With DMT, cryptographic mixes are the only practical solution. Problem is that most users will not understand cryptographic mixing, whereas they do understand a furnace. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 50wZVsHzWVCcQBwTOHonjfe6YktnJgFEe7CRcnOu 4qPIe4UB2pjTm4BTLInH60M2fku9pH217a/zFX8Jc
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
-- On 12 Nov 2002 at 8:50, Nomen Nescio wrote: > According to this link, > http://www.infoanarchy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/11/11/4183/2039, > a new form of digital cash called "yodels" is being offered anonymously: > > [...] > > Supposedly, then, this is cash which can be transferred > anonymously via IIP or Freenet. Leaving aside the question > of trusting an anonymous bank (trust takes time), the > sticking point for ecash is how to transfer between yodels > and other currencies. Without transferability, what gives > yodels their value? Alleged attempts to introduce internet currencies have a ninety percent humbug and fraud rate. If his currency works well enough that one can buy addresses with it, this indicates a somewhat surprising level of success. I will check out his currency, and see what there is to see. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 46Ibm86cvcVoir/f4dSSPwM2gYCtHcpTds+N+jJq 4psLxBq0RMZOakFcGiILu6K8f4B1x/f6awQoD8K5c
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
At 03:39 PM 11/12/2002 +0200, you wrote: On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Nomen Nescio wrote: > According to this link, > http://www.infoanarchy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/11/11/4183/2039, > a new form of digital cash called "yodels" is being offered anonymously: > [...] > Supposedly, then, this is cash which can be transferred anonymously via > IIP or Freenet. Leaving aside the question of trusting an anonymous bank > (trust takes time), the sticking point for ecash is how to transfer > between yodels and other currencies. Without transferability, what > gives yodels their value? I believe that the Yodel bank does not have its own currency, but uses DMT Rands. DMT Rands are alleged to be backed by a basket of gold plus a few fiat currencies issued by nation states. See http://www.orlingrabbe.com/rand.htm for information about the currency, and http://www.orlingrabbe.com/dmt_guide.htm for information about the DMT system and its companions ALTA and LESE. Correct they are a bearer share issuer, like the Digicash licensees before them. They claim to hold value denominated in some units of account (in their case DMT) as their asset backing. The challenge for Yodel will come in convincing potential users that: DMTs have sustainable value, that Yodel is really fully backed by DMTs, that Yodel's operators can be trusted not to abscond with the value exchanged for Yodels or refuse to exchange them for DMTs at some future time. All while reamining anonymous. A pretty tall order I should think. At least initially, many Yodel users may want only to use them mainly as a mixmaster between DMT accounts. steve
Re: Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Nomen Nescio wrote: > According to this link, > http://www.infoanarchy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/11/11/4183/2039, > a new form of digital cash called "yodels" is being offered anonymously: > [...] > Supposedly, then, this is cash which can be transferred anonymously via > IIP or Freenet. Leaving aside the question of trusting an anonymous bank > (trust takes time), the sticking point for ecash is how to transfer > between yodels and other currencies. Without transferability, what > gives yodels their value? I believe that the Yodel bank does not have its own currency, but uses DMT Rands. DMT Rands are alleged to be backed by a basket of gold plus a few fiat currencies issued by nation states. See http://www.orlingrabbe.com/rand.htm for information about the currency, and http://www.orlingrabbe.com/dmt_guide.htm for information about the DMT system and its companions ALTA and LESE. --apb (Alan Barrett)
Yodels, new anonymous e-currency
According to this link, http://www.infoanarchy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/11/11/4183/2039, a new form of digital cash called "yodels" is being offered anonymously: > Thanks to developments in anonymous communication, such as Freenet and the > invisible irc project, anonymous digital cash has become a reality. Yodel > Bank is offering 'yodels' as a form of currency you can exchange with > people who you've never met outside of anonymous means. For example, > you could pay for some web design or a hosting service anonymously, > play video poker with real anonymous money on iip, or make a donation to > a charity without disclosing who you are. Yodel Bank is relatively new, > but now that you can transfer money over IIP and Freenet, a real vibrant > anonymous economy is springing up, and it's unclear how goverments > will react to this 'private' banking. Also it remains unclear if an > Assassination Politics service will arise due to these technologies. Supposedly, then, this is cash which can be transferred anonymously via IIP or Freenet. Leaving aside the question of trusting an anonymous bank (trust takes time), the sticking point for ecash is how to transfer between yodels and other currencies. Without transferability, what gives yodels their value? > The author of Yodel Bank can be reached on IIP under the name yodel on > #yodel. He claims to be fully anonymous to the world, and has purchased > the domain name and hosting by using his currency. He understands that > trust is something that takes time to develop in an anonymous bank. I > definately suggest you give his service a try. So Mr. Yodel purchased his domain name (what domain name?) and his hosting by using yodels. If someone is selling these services for yodels, that could provide a limited basis for giving the currency value. An additional comment suggests that more information can be found at the Freenet address SSK@Mt3s3k7PCEUzbNW6zeI2oyRT0jgPAgM/yodel//. This is a "Freesite" and you need the Freenet software installed to access it.
