Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, at 15:05, Florian W wrote: > Otherwise the most straightforward thing would be to display an > information message when the pipeline is "wrongly" ordered regarding > image processing theory, There's a first step towards that in this PR: https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/pull/3908 So far just a module which displays basic information about the current order, and can be used to change to various preset orders. It shows a warning for seriously broken ordering, as well, with a suggestion to use one of the defaults. -- jys ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
Hi @Florian, Can you please just create a feature request about that in github? Thank you, Dave Am Mo., 27. Jan. 2020 um 00:06 Uhr schrieb Florian W : > Hey guys, sorry for the late reply, hard week at work last week. > > @David > >> > I have some other suggestions to get the user informed about the >> potential signal processing disaster when ordering the pixel pipe modules >> badly relatively to the color space. >> >> I would be very interested to read your suggestion. >> > This is really not the initial topic of my post but I guess sharing this > could be useful. > I think that starting by something as simple as putting a little sign like > a yellow triangle with an exclamation mark in the title bar a module > misplaced regarding what should be done for a regular image processing > pipeline would be a good start. Hovering the triangle would display a > tooltip explaining the issue and offering a link the the manual or and > article on the topic for more detail. > > Otherwise the most straightforward thing would be to display an > information message when the pipeline is "wrongly" ordered regarding image > processing theory, using the user information mechanisms already present in > the darkroom, maybe adding a "for more info click here" link in the message > that would open the manual at this topic or opening a browser to the page > of one of the several articles that have been produced on this topic. > > @jys > >> This might be enough, at least to start with. This is something most >> people would want to change one time, if at all, right? >> > > I would say that once they have been able to change and try between > several configurations, they would indeed set it one time and don't touch > it anymore. > A file config would be a good first POC, but something more GUI doable, > with a different user action to do it that the one allowing to reorder the > pixel pipe, in order to avoid ambiguity between reordering the pixel pipe > (right panel) and modifying the GUI (left panel). > > Florian Wernert > > > Le mer. 22 janv. 2020 à 23:31, jys a écrit : > >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2020, at 07:33, Florian W wrote: >> >> > As an alternative, some config file based ordering of the left panel >> > would be easier to achieve I guess (and safer considering your point >> > #2). >> >> This might be enough, at least to start with. This is something most >> people would want to change one time, if at all, right? >> >> -- >> jys >> >> ___ >> darktable developer mailing list >> to unsubscribe send a mail to >> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org >> >> > ___ > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
Hey guys, sorry for the late reply, hard week at work last week. @David > > I have some other suggestions to get the user informed about the > potential signal processing disaster when ordering the pixel pipe modules > badly relatively to the color space. > > I would be very interested to read your suggestion. > This is really not the initial topic of my post but I guess sharing this could be useful. I think that starting by something as simple as putting a little sign like a yellow triangle with an exclamation mark in the title bar a module misplaced regarding what should be done for a regular image processing pipeline would be a good start. Hovering the triangle would display a tooltip explaining the issue and offering a link the the manual or and article on the topic for more detail. Otherwise the most straightforward thing would be to display an information message when the pipeline is "wrongly" ordered regarding image processing theory, using the user information mechanisms already present in the darkroom, maybe adding a "for more info click here" link in the message that would open the manual at this topic or opening a browser to the page of one of the several articles that have been produced on this topic. @jys > This might be enough, at least to start with. This is something most > people would want to change one time, if at all, right? > I would say that once they have been able to change and try between several configurations, they would indeed set it one time and don't touch it anymore. A file config would be a good first POC, but something more GUI doable, with a different user action to do it that the one allowing to reorder the pixel pipe, in order to avoid ambiguity between reordering the pixel pipe (right panel) and modifying the GUI (left panel). Florian Wernert Le mer. 22 janv. 2020 à 23:31, jys a écrit : > On Wed, Jan 22, 2020, at 07:33, Florian W wrote: > > > As an alternative, some config file based ordering of the left panel > > would be easier to achieve I guess (and safer considering your point > > #2). > > This might be enough, at least to start with. This is something most > people would want to change one time, if at all, right? > > -- > jys > ___ > darktable developer mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
On Wed, Jan 22, 2020, at 07:33, Florian W wrote: > As an alternative, some config file based ordering of the left panel > would be easier to achieve I guess (and safer considering your point > #2). This might be enough, at least to start with. This is something most people would want to change one time, if at all, right? -- jys ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
> Further: if the pipeline automatically reorders my input correctly, then my misuse of order should be automatically corrected which would be optimal as I view the situation. That sounds like you want the possibility to sort but then darktable shall reorder as it thinks it is best? What is the purpose of the feature then? No, the default pipeline order can be changed and darktable will process the image in the order as commanded by the users UI ordering. This is not a I want the UI to look pretty feature. It changes the pipeline, so the order of operations. This is not a feature useful for everyone. > Could we use the same the same method the image processing modules use for "move up" and "move down" vs. the shft+ctl+drag and drop? Or a right click context menu? If you are following Aureliens reply you see that its not the question of the key combination. He argues that even if it was possible from the UI library that is used it first is a question of sensibility: Mixing 2 different concepts with the same input opens up usability issues because the user expects from the same operation the same behavior. So imagine changing UI component on the left side of the window changes the UI appearance and changing the UI components on the right (obviously changes the UI appearance and) changes the processing, so does have an effect on the final image... wouldn't it be very bad if the same key combination is used for those 2 very different operations? Many users are getting wrong what the module reodering really does, as you can see by reading this thread. > I have some other suggestions to get the user informed about the potential signal processing disaster when ordering the pixel pipe modules badly relatively to the color space. I would be very interested to read your suggestion. Kind regards David Am Mi., 22. Jan. 2020 um 19:24 Uhr schrieb David LaCivita < dlaci...@gmail.com>: > Could we use the same the same method the image processing modules use for > "move up" and "move down" vs. the shft+ctl+drag and drop? Or a right click > context menu? > Thank you, > Dave LaCivita > > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:08 PM David Vincent-Jones > wrote: > >> The reordering should then be obvious from the pipeline list (Column 1). >> How is it that the tone-equalizer always sits ahead of the filmic-rgb? That >> makes (to me) no sense at all. >> >> Further: if the pipeline automatically reorders my input correctly, then >> my misuse of order should be automatically corrected which would be optimal >> as I view the situation. >> >> Cheers; >> >> David >> On 2020-01-22 5:50 a.m., Aurélien Pierre wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> image-processing modules *are not moved *up and down *in the GUI* but *in >> the pixel pipe, *so that changes the actual order of application of the >> corresponding filters. You are on for a lot of trouble if you handle that >> as a workspace widgets reordering feature. >> >> Reordering the (non image-processing) modules as a workspace management >> might raise 2 concerns : >> >>- a need for a global workspace/widgets layout editor (Qt app do that >>a lot, GTK is not super keen), >>- a possible confusion among users, because left panel reordering >>will mean workspace reordering, but in right panel, it will mean pipe >>reordering. 2 different behaviours for the seemingly identical graphical >>widgets in the same app is not a good UX design. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Aurélien. >> Le 22/01/2020 à 14:33, Florian W a écrit : >> >> Hi guys, after a few months here is the usability nerd again :) >> >> I wondered if there was any reason (other than historical I mean) for the >> ordering of the left panel modules in the darkroom. >> >> I can see good reasons to put the snapshot and history modules at the top >> of the panel, however I'm a bit puzzled to see the mask manager at the >> bottom and the duplicate manager at a higher position. >> >> Different people have different workflows and want to organize their >> workspace differently according to it. >> >> Wouldn't it be great if the left panel modules could be moved up and down >> like we can do in the right panel now? >> >> I mean, I usually use the mask manager way more often then the duplicate >> manager (which I basically don't use as there's Ctrl+D to do the job). >> >> It's been a while since I haven't been into the DT code base but I shall >> have a look to do that. >> >> Cheers and keep up the good work >> >> Florian >> >> ___ >> darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to >> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org >> >> >> ___ >> darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to >> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org >> >> >> ___ >> darktable developer mailing list to
Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
Could we use the same the same method the image processing modules use for "move up" and "move down" vs. the shft+ctl+drag and drop? Or a right click context menu? Thank you, Dave LaCivita On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:08 PM David Vincent-Jones wrote: > The reordering should then be obvious from the pipeline list (Column 1). > How is it that the tone-equalizer always sits ahead of the filmic-rgb? That > makes (to me) no sense at all. > > Further: if the pipeline automatically reorders my input correctly, then > my misuse of order should be automatically corrected which would be optimal > as I view the situation. > > Cheers; > > David > On 2020-01-22 5:50 a.m., Aurélien Pierre wrote: > > Hi, > > image-processing modules *are not moved *up and down *in the GUI* but *in > the pixel pipe, *so that changes the actual order of application of the > corresponding filters. You are on for a lot of trouble if you handle that > as a workspace widgets reordering feature. > > Reordering the (non image-processing) modules as a workspace management > might raise 2 concerns : > >- a need for a global workspace/widgets layout editor (Qt app do that >a lot, GTK is not super keen), >- a possible confusion among users, because left panel reordering will >mean workspace reordering, but in right panel, it will mean pipe >reordering. 2 different behaviours for the seemingly identical graphical >widgets in the same app is not a good UX design. > > Cheers, > > Aurélien. > Le 22/01/2020 à 14:33, Florian W a écrit : > > Hi guys, after a few months here is the usability nerd again :) > > I wondered if there was any reason (other than historical I mean) for the > ordering of the left panel modules in the darkroom. > > I can see good reasons to put the snapshot and history modules at the top > of the panel, however I'm a bit puzzled to see the mask manager at the > bottom and the duplicate manager at a higher position. > > Different people have different workflows and want to organize their > workspace differently according to it. > > Wouldn't it be great if the left panel modules could be moved up and down > like we can do in the right panel now? > > I mean, I usually use the mask manager way more often then the duplicate > manager (which I basically don't use as there's Ctrl+D to do the job). > > It's been a while since I haven't been into the DT code base but I shall > have a look to do that. > > Cheers and keep up the good work > > Florian > > ___ > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > > ___ > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > > ___ > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
The reordering should then be obvious from the pipeline list (Column 1). How is it that the tone-equalizer always sits ahead of the filmic-rgb? That makes (to me) no sense at all. Further: if the pipeline automatically reorders my input correctly, then my misuse of order should be automatically corrected which would be optimal as I view the situation. Cheers; David On 2020-01-22 5:50 a.m., Aurélien Pierre wrote: Hi, image-processing modules *are not moved *up and down *in the GUI* but *in the pixel pipe, *so that changes the actual order of application of the corresponding filters. You are on for a lot of trouble if you handle that as a workspace widgets reordering feature. Reordering the (non image-processing) modules as a workspace management might raise 2 concerns : * a need for a global workspace/widgets layout editor (Qt app do that a lot, GTK is not super keen), * a possible confusion among users, because left panel reordering will mean workspace reordering, but in right panel, it will mean pipe reordering. 2 different behaviours for the seemingly identical graphical widgets in the same app is not a good UX design. Cheers, Aurélien. Le 22/01/2020 à 14:33, Florian W a écrit : Hi guys, after a few months here is the usability nerd again :) I wondered if there was any reason (other than historical I mean) for the ordering of the left panel modules in the darkroom. I can see good reasons to put the snapshot and history modules at the top of the panel, however I'm a bit puzzled to see the mask manager at the bottom and the duplicate manager at a higher position. Different people have different workflows and want to organize their workspace differently according to it. Wouldn't it be great if the left panel modules could be moved up and down like we can do in the right panel now? I mean, I usually use the mask manager way more often then the duplicate manager (which I basically don't use as there's Ctrl+D to do the job). It's been a while since I haven't been into the DT code base but I shall have a look to do that. Cheers and keep up the good work Florian ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
Hi Aurélien, > Hi, > > image-processing modules *are not moved *up and down *in the GUI* but *in > the pixel pipe, *so that changes the actual order of application of the > corresponding filters. You are on for a lot of trouble if you handle that > as a workspace widgets reordering feature. > Indeed, I know as I read DT docs, articles, watch your videos and so on. And I didn't state that they are not moved in the pixel pipe, I mentioned that they are movable in the GUI (which will reflects on the pixel pipe ordering as you mention). But better saying it again and again as this information is really important from an image processing point of view. :-) Reordering the (non image-processing) modules as a workspace management > might raise 2 concerns : > >- a need for a global workspace/widgets layout editor (Qt app do that >a lot, GTK is not super keen), > > That's true, GTK is not as perfect as Qt for these UI design features. However the lack of such design tool what has been achieved for the UI part of moving modules in the right panel of the darkroom seems pretty good. There may even be some potential to factor it to other parts of the UI not linked to the pixel pipe. As an alternative, some config file based ordering of the left panel would be easier to achieve I guess (and safer considering your point #2). >- a possible confusion among users, because left panel reordering will >mean workspace reordering, but in right panel, it will mean pipe >reordering. 2 different behaviours for the seemingly identical graphical >widgets in the same app is not a good UX design. > > Very true that it is a possible source of confusion. Unless the users understand the consequences of what they are doing. I know you're very familiar with this question after having done a lot of user education material following the big change of pixel pipe free ordering (thanks for that BTW). The main question is to get the user informed of what happens by whatever means are available to the developers Which seems pretty achievable as differentiating between image processing and non image processing modules seems not to much to understand for a user. I don't mean to side track the discussion at hand here but if you're interested I have some other suggestions to get the user informed about the potential signal processing disaster when ordering the pixel pipe modules badly relatively to the color space. It would be useful to educate those who don't take time to read articles and videos about signal processing. Thanks for your useful inputs, Cheers, Florian Le 22/01/2020 à 14:33, Florian W a écrit : > > Hi guys, after a few months here is the usability nerd again :) > > I wondered if there was any reason (other than historical I mean) for the > ordering of the left panel modules in the darkroom. > > I can see good reasons to put the snapshot and history modules at the top > of the panel, however I'm a bit puzzled to see the mask manager at the > bottom and the duplicate manager at a higher position. > > Different people have different workflows and want to organize their > workspace differently according to it. > > Wouldn't it be great if the left panel modules could be moved up and down > like we can do in the right panel now? > > I mean, I usually use the mask manager way more often then the duplicate > manager (which I basically don't use as there's Ctrl+D to do the job). > > It's been a while since I haven't been into the DT code base but I shall > have a look to do that. > > Cheers and keep up the good work > > Florian > > ___ > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > > ___ > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] Moving left panel modules in the darkroom
Hi, image-processing modules *are not moved *up and down *in the GUI* but *in the pixel pipe, *so that changes the actual order of application of the corresponding filters. You are on for a lot of trouble if you handle that as a workspace widgets reordering feature. Reordering the (non image-processing) modules as a workspace management might raise 2 concerns : * a need for a global workspace/widgets layout editor (Qt app do that a lot, GTK is not super keen), * a possible confusion among users, because left panel reordering will mean workspace reordering, but in right panel, it will mean pipe reordering. 2 different behaviours for the seemingly identical graphical widgets in the same app is not a good UX design. Cheers, Aurélien. Le 22/01/2020 à 14:33, Florian W a écrit : > Hi guys, after a few months here is the usability nerd again :) > > I wondered if there was any reason (other than historical I mean) for > the ordering of the left panel modules in the darkroom. > > I can see good reasons to put the snapshot and history modules at the > top of the panel, however I'm a bit puzzled to see the mask manager at > the bottom and the duplicate manager at a higher position. > > Different people have different workflows and want to organize their > workspace differently according to it. > > Wouldn't it be great if the left panel modules could be moved up and > down like we can do in the right panel now? > > I mean, I usually use the mask manager way more often then the > duplicate manager (which I basically don't use as there's Ctrl+D to do > the job). > > It's been a while since I haven't been into the DT code base but I > shall have a look to do that. > > Cheers and keep up the good work > > Florian > > ___ > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
