Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)

[Terry Pinfold]

First off, I would like to echo the appreciation by Marc to the developers of 
Darktable. I truly appreciate and marvel at their dedication. They have 
produced an incredible raw processing program. I also agree with Karim’s 
description of the zone system and how Filmic is a far better tool to achieve 
the aims of the zone system. I abandoned the zone system module a long time ago 
and have become the biggest fan of filmic. However, let's consider Tanya’s 
original post. She was concerned that a module had been deprecated. Others 
including myself may feel there are better options such as filmic. However, 
should we or the developers force this view upon another user of Darktable. I 
am suggesting that unless there is an issue of maintaining an old module or 
having it work with the latest version of Darktable it would be best just left 
alone as an option. Possibly in the module’s name we could list the recommended 
replacement module to guide users.

As an example, many describe the tone equalizer as a replacement for the shadow 
highlights module. But despite their similarities they actually produce 
different results. The excellent tone equalizer module can be used to brighten 
and darken shadows and highlights respectively. It does this with little or no 
effect on local contrast and saturation of colors. However, shadow highlights 
module does affect local contrast and the saturation of colors. For this 
reason, some people regard the tone equalizer as superior and a worthy 
replacement for the shadow highlights module, but I would suggest they are just 
different. This difference is what makes Darktable great. I often use both 
shadow highlights and tone equalizer on the same image (I know some of you just 
cringed). I would be so disappointed if the developers took away this freedom 
of choice from me in the future.
Whenever possible let’s keep the old modules as an option but let’s keep up the 
development of the new modules. And thanks again to the developers for a great 
2020, at least in the Darktable world.




From: Top Rock Photography 
Sent: Friday, 8 January 2021 4:44 AM
To: darktable forum 
Subject: Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)

FUN with The Zone System

I have been intrigued with the zone system since the summer of 1980. By the 
time I got into my first darkroom in 1981, sheet film had been replaced as the 
de facto by 35 mm roll film (after 120 roll film, of course). Doing the zone 
system became harder. Then I was introduced to Ilford Multigrade paper, and, 
with a great deal of pre-planning, the zone system became a little easier.

With digital photography, it became that much easier, as once again, 
photographs can be treated differently on a frame by frame basis, instead of a 
roll by roll  basis. The zone system and swing/tilt-shift/lift lens standard 
were the only two things drawing me towards view cameras, and now, with high 
resolution digital cameras and the digital darkroom, (such as darktable), I no 
longer need a view camera for either one. (Well, a swing/tilt-shift/lift lens 
standard would still be awesome!!!)

One of the first things I had noticed, and was eager to try, when I first 
looked at darktable as an alternative to RawTherapee, was the zone system 
module. I tried using it to get the results I wanted, and found that it was 
much easier to use curves, or something else to achieve the goal. With the 
filmic RGB  module, I find it so much easier (and more precise) than the zone 
system module ever was. If one understands precisely what the zone system is 
all about, then using the filmic module to achieve the goal is so much easier 
than attempting it any other way.

The idea is to pick the greatest highlights and deepest shadows in which one 
desires to capture details, then expose and develop for it accordingly. This 
means from a practical DSC pov, expose the sensor such that the highlights on 
the subject in which one wants to retain detail is not near clipping, (so as to 
capture as much detail in the shadows, without losing details in the 
highlights, a.k.a., expose the subject to the right, or ETTR), then use the 
filmic module (ar any other appropriate module) to adjust the subjects 
highlights and shadows accordingly. The dynamic range scaling feature is 
absolutely a marvel with this.

[ASIDE] For negative film, the zone system can be summarised as —and this is a 
huge oversimplification— expose for the shadow (get enough light so as to 
capture detail, or in other words, get enough density on the negative), and 
develop for the highlights (do not get too much density in the highlights), 
a.k.a., still expose to the right. This may mean over exposing and under 
developing, —pulling the film— when the shadows are too dark, or under exposing 
and over developing —pushing the film— when the shadows are too bright. Nothing 
has really changed with digital photography. [/ASIDE]

Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)

[Top Rock Photography]

FUN with The Zone System

I have been intrigued with the zone system since the summer of 1980. By the
time I got into my first darkroom in 1981, sheet film had been replaced as
the de facto by 35 mm roll film (after 120 roll film, of course). Doing the
zone system became harder. Then I was introduced to Ilford Multigrade
paper, and, with a great deal of pre-planning, the zone system became a
little easier.

With digital photography, it became that much easier, as once again,
photographs can be treated differently on a frame by frame basis, instead
of a roll by roll  basis. The zone system and swing/tilt-shift/lift lens
standard were the only two things drawing me towards view cameras, and now,
with high resolution digital cameras and the digital darkroom, (such as
darktable), I no longer need a view camera for either one. (Well,
a swing/tilt-shift/lift lens standard would still be awesome!!!)

One of the first things I had noticed, and was eager to try, when I first
looked at darktable as an alternative to RawTherapee, was the zone system
module. I tried using it to get the results I wanted, and found that it was
much easier to use curves, or something else to achieve the goal. With the
filmic RGB  module, I find it so much easier (and more precise) than the
zone system module ever was. If one understands precisely what the zone
system is all about, then using the filmic module to achieve the goal is so
much easier than attempting it any other way.

The idea is to pick the greatest highlights and deepest shadows in which
one desires to capture details, then expose and develop for it accordingly.
This means from a practical DSC pov, expose the sensor such that the*
highlights on the subject *in which one wants to retain detail is not near
clipping, (so as to capture as much detail in the shadows, without losing
details in the highlights, a.k.a., *expose the subject* to the right, or
ETTR), then use the filmic module (ar any other appropriate module) to
adjust the subjects highlights and shadows accordingly. The dynamic range
scaling feature is absolutely a marvel with this.

[ASIDE] For negative film, the zone system can be summarised as —and this
is a huge oversimplification— expose for the shadow (get enough light so as
to capture detail, or in other words, get enough density on the negative),
and develop for the highlights (do not get too much density in the
highlights), a.k.a., still expose to the right. This may mean over exposing
and under developing, —pulling the film— when the shadows are too dark, or
under exposing and over developing —pushing the film— when the shadows are
too bright. Nothing has really changed with digital photography. [/ASIDE]

Whereas the zone system module made it easier to indicate what parts of the
*subject *fell into what zones, it did not add any value outside of such
visualisation, (IMNSHO). The same can be achieved by using the clipping
indicator, by setting the threshold values accordingly, and *observing the
subject*. Not only so, but the tooltip of the new clipping indicator helps
one make the adjustment based on the intended medium, including print. (It
was sometimes a pain to get an image just right, then, after sending to the
printers, realised that it had to be adjusted majorly).

I recommend that those interested in the zone system first understand what
the zote system was attempting to achieve, then learn how one can achieve
the same results in the filmic module. Linear RGB is basically the zone
system on steroids! (IMNSHO).

That is my 2¢.

Sincerely,

Karim Hosein
Top Rock Photography
754.999.1652


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Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)

[Pascal Obry]

Hi Marc,

> I cannot thank you enough for such a great raw editor.
>  
> I understand that modules are deprecated but may I assume they’ll
> remain supported, and embedded in DT, in every future release … ?

Yes a deprecated module will never be removed. It wont be in the UI but
old edits using it won't be affected.


-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B


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RE: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)

[marc.cabuy]

Dear Developers, former and current,

 

I cannot thank you enough for such a great raw editor.

 

I understand that modules are deprecated but may I assume they’ll remain 
supported, and embedded in DT, in every future release … ?

 

(Otherwise some of the old edits in one’s DT database would not resolve 
correctly anymore without a rework.)

 

Again thank you. I very much appreciate also its availability on the different 
platforms, especially on Windows in my case.

 

Marc.

 

Van: Terry Pinfold  
Verzonden: dinsdag 5 januari 2021 23:44
Aan: tanya.rise...@gmail.com
CC: darktable forum 
Onderwerp: Re: [darktable-user] DT 3.4 no longer has zone system module (gone!)

 

"The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion."

 

I would tend to agree with Tanya about keeping the zone system. While I much 
prefer the tone equalizer module over the zone system I feel having the choice 
to use or not use the zone system is best. What I really like about DT is the 
ability to have so many choices of modules to achieve your desired outcome. I 
can understand that modules may have to be deprecated if they can not be 
maintained or cause DT to not work correctly, but if this is not the case then 
I would agree that the zone system should be reinstated. 

 

I was also surprised to see some noise reduction modules have disappeared in 
the latest version of DT. I did like the options of multiple modules for 
tackling different noise issues. But in saying that I am impressed with the 
improvements to the denoise (profiled) module, especially the chrominance only 
preset in the hamburger. I really appreciate the effort of all the developers 
for producing my favourite editing program, but please only deprecate modules 
if you really have to. 

  

Thanks Terry

 

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 at 09:28, Tanya Riseman mailto:tanya.rise...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Thank you all for the tips on using tone equalizer. I am still digesting them, 
but have made a lot of progress.

 

I am using DT 3.2 so that I can compare zone system and tone equalizer. I 
understand that tone equalizer in v. 3.4 is a lot better, but I am putting off 
upgrading to it due to the lack of zone system.

 

I took a sample picture to edit, with a good range of black to white. I want to 
make it look like the classic B street photography with "inky blacks". In 
zone system I pushed the dark shadows down toward the black to get this effect. 
I also pushed the highlights toward the whites, but not as much. There are 8 
points on the zone strip that one can vary. I am going for the look of "inky 
blacks" over preserving all the detail.

 

In tone equalizer using the default mask type of guided filter and spreading 
the mask histogram as much as I could, I got about 3.5 points on the curve that 
could modify the picture. I could not get anything near to the result from zone 
system. Too grey.

 

I tried choosing 'no' in preserve details (in the masking tab), as Juan 
suggested. Now the mask spans all 8 EV and I was able to get very close to my 
picture from zone system.

 

So my conclusions are

 

1. It is not certain that tone equalizer is mature since the last big update is 
only from late December.

 

2. If tone equalizer is not yet mature, it is premature to deprecate the zone 
system module.

 

3. The tone equalizer "preserve details" option of "no" that basically 
replicates the zone system/ tone curve is very buried. Maybe it should be on 
the simple tab. To be honest I find the tone curve hard to use and was 
initially smitten with the simple tab on the tone equalizer.

 

4. Learning the tone equalizer is much harder than the zone system (thank you 
for the hand holding). This is a barrier for beginners; let them get their sea 
legs using the zone system as they learn techniques that go beyond basic 
sliders. 

 

5. Obviously in using the tone equalizer, there are other images where the 
intention is more of preserving detail while not adjusting tone values more 
than the detail mask allows. I can think of documentary cases like bird photos 
and scientific images.

 

6. The developers should keep the zone system in my opinion. 

 

Tanya Riseman

 


 
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