Re: Debian BootCamp for people new to Debian

[Dashamir Hoxha]

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 3:00 PM Pirate Praveen 
wrote:

>
> We are happy to see many people new to Debian (for example Outreachy
> and Google Summer of Code interns) attending the DebConf.
>
> This BootCamp is an opportunity to get introduced to Debian and have
> some hands-on experience with using Debian and contributing to Debian.
>
> Mentors: Sruthi Chandran; Pirate Praveen. (People interested to mentor,
> add your name to https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/22/DebCamp#Your_plans
> )
>
> Venue: Noisy Hacklab
> Contact: Sruthi Chandran (srud on OFTC or "srud at debian dot org)
> When: 13-15 Jul 2022 - Starting at 2 pm after lunch and we will
> interactively adapt the topics covered based on your level of
> understanding and we can connect you with teams you are interested in.
>
> We can help you choose technical (for example packaging, bug fixing,
> transitions, system administration etc) or non technical (for example
> plublicity, design, organizing events, translations etc) contributions
> as per your interest.
>

I'd like to get some guidance on how to get involved with system
administration.
I'll be present at the bootcamp today, at about 14:00 (hopefully). Be
prepared.


>
> Pirate Praveen
>
>

Decision making in Debian

[Dashamir Hoxha]

Hi,

I am not sure how democratic decision making is made in Debian, but I guess
it is done through mailing lists, which in my opinion are not the best tool
for this purpose.
I'd be interested in discussing about what can be done to improve this
process.
Maybe we can give a try to LiquidFeedback (https://liquidfeedback.com/en/).

Can we arrange a meeting to discuss about it? I'll be at the DebConf up to
24.

I am not a proper member of the Debian community (maybe I am somewhere on
some outer circle), so decision making in Debian should not be my concern
(does not have to be).
But I am interested in testing LiquidFeedback, to see whether it works as
supposed and as expected. I have already installed it somewhere, but I have
not been able to configure it properly, so it is not yet in a usable state.
The configuration problems maybe can be fixed easily, but the real issue is
whether it behaves as expected if used by a community. And I think that the
Debian community might be a good use case for testing it.

Regards,
Dashamir

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Mattia Rizzolo]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 10:07:04AM +0200, Dashamir Hoxha wrote:
> I am not sure how democratic decision making is made in Debian

The only "democratic decision making" in Debian are GRs.

Everything else is not democratic, but up to every single person/team in
charge (and when there is a team is normally composed of very few people
where really no tool is needed to help them make decisions).

-- 
regards,
Mattia Rizzolo

GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
More about me:  https://mapreri.org : :'  :
Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri  `. `'`
Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Your personalized DC22 Key Signing Party Map is now available!

[Dashamir Hoxha]

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 7:02 AM Gunnar Wolf  wrote:

>
> always hold our continuou key signing party. The listing for this
> year's KSP is now available at:
>
> https://people.debian.org/~gwolf/dc22_ksp/dc22_fprs.txt
>
> Please download that file, check the sha256 and ripemd160 sums, print
> it out, and be ready for some CoC-abiding, fingerprint exchange action!
>

It seems that there are printers at the venue.
Does it make sense if the organizers of the conference print a few copies
of the list, and the interested people go and get a copy?

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Dashamir Hoxha]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 10:13 AM Mattia Rizzolo  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 10:07:04AM +0200, Dashamir Hoxha wrote:
> > I am not sure how democratic decision making is made in Debian
>
> The only "democratic decision making" in Debian are GRs.
>
> Everything else is not democratic, but up to every single person/team in
> charge (and when there is a team is normally composed of very few people
> where really no tool is needed to help them make decisions).
>

Most probably you are right.
But I have seen recently a very long discussion thread in a mailing list,
with pros and cons about introducing Discourse as an alternative or
replacement to mailing lists, and the result of the discussion was not
clear at all (at least I could not understand it). I am also not sure what
happened with the Discourse initiative, was it finally tried or not.

Re: Bus Durrës-Prizren - any recommendation?

[Stefano Rivera]

Hi Enrico (2022.07.13_20:52:31_+)
> ...which reminds me, if anyone's planning to be on the ferry tomorrow
> evening (leaving Bari on 2022-07-14 at 22:00), drop me an email and we
> can meet up :)

While we're talking about the ferry. The boarding cards need to be
picked up from the ticket office at the car entrance. There is a shuttle
ride between there and the boarding area.

So, do turn up at the ferry 2 hours before departure, to leave time to
collect the boarding cards.

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Étienne Mollier]

Hello Dashamir,

Dashamir Hoxha, on 2022-07-14:
> But I have seen recently a very long discussion thread in a mailing list,
> with pros and cons about introducing Discourse as an alternative or
> replacement to mailing lists, and the result of the discussion was not
> clear at all (at least I could not understand it). I am also not sure what
> happened with the Discourse initiative, was it finally tried or not.

There has been a test instance at https://discourse.debian.net.
I believe it has been set up some two years ago but did not gain
much momentum.  The site currently looks down, not sure for how
long, nor whether it has ever been under heavy use.

Kind Regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
Fingerprint:  8f91 b227 c7d6 f2b1 948c  8236 793c f67e 8f0d 11da
Sent from /dev/pts/2, please excuse my verbosity.
On air: Tomorrow's Eve - Changes


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Bus Durrës-Prizren - any recommendation?

[Bernelle Verster]

I intend to take this ferry end August after FOSS4G (in Florence,
Italy) to take my return flight back out of Kosovo (to South Africa).
Is there decent savings to be had to book tickets in advance? And if
so, what website is good?

TIA
B

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 11:09 AM Stefano Rivera  wrote:
>
> Hi Enrico (2022.07.13_20:52:31_+)
> > ...which reminds me, if anyone's planning to be on the ferry tomorrow
> > evening (leaving Bari on 2022-07-14 at 22:00), drop me an email and we
> > can meet up :)
>
> While we're talking about the ferry. The boarding cards need to be
> picked up from the ticket office at the car entrance. There is a shuttle
> ride between there and the boarding area.
>
> So, do turn up at the ferry 2 hours before departure, to leave time to
> collect the boarding cards.
>
> SR
>
> --
> Stefano Rivera
>   http://tumbleweed.org.za/
>   +1 415 683 3272
>

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Stefano Rivera]

Hi Dashamir (2022.07.14_08:31:51_+)
> But I have seen recently a very long discussion thread in a mailing list,
> with pros and cons about introducing Discourse as an alternative or
> replacement to mailing lists, and the result of the discussion was not
> clear at all (at least I could not understand it). I am also not sure what
> happened with the Discourse initiative, was it finally tried or not.

That was less of a discussion, and more of someone who is new to our
community making a noise about how we are doing things wrong and should
be doing them differently. I think most people roll their eyes and mark
the thread as read. Many suggestions like this have been discussed
before, many times, without any concrete actions coming out of them.

A more positive approach would probably be to to sit back and see how
things work, then make suggestions when you understand the issues at
play. It also needs people to do the work to make change happen. Not
just the technical work, but the discussions, lobbying etc., and then
the maintenance.

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

Re: Bus Durrës-Prizren - any recommendation?

[stefanor]

Hi Bernelle (2022.07.14_09:12:53_+)
> I intend to take this ferry end August after FOSS4G (in Florence,
> Italy) to take my return flight back out of Kosovo (to South Africa).
> Is there decent savings to be had to book tickets in advance? And if
> so, what website is good?

I only have 1 data point for you:
I had to delay my ferry trip (Bari->Dubrovnik), because I caught
COVID-19 in Italy.  Rebooking 2 days in advance didn't require any extra
payment.
I think on that line, prices don't change over time, but cabins may get
booked up.

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

Re: Bus Durrës-Prizren - any recommendation?

[Steve McIntyre]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 09:19:55AM +, stefa...@debian.org wrote:
>Hi Bernelle (2022.07.14_09:12:53_+)
>> I intend to take this ferry end August after FOSS4G (in Florence,
>> Italy) to take my return flight back out of Kosovo (to South Africa).
>> Is there decent savings to be had to book tickets in advance? And if
>> so, what website is good?
>
>I only have 1 data point for you:
>I had to delay my ferry trip (Bari->Dubrovnik), because I caught
>COVID-19 in Italy.  Rebooking 2 days in advance didn't require any extra
>payment.
>I think on that line, prices don't change over time, but cabins may get
>booked up.

Yep, cabins book up quickly on the ferries across the Adriatic. My
initial plan was to do Ancona <-> Durrës, then had to switch to Bari
<-> Durrës instead - same trip as Enrico.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Into the distance, a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Hi Dashamir

On 2022/07/14 10:07, Dashamir Hoxha wrote:
I am not sure how democratic decision making is made in Debian, but I 
guess it is done through mailing lists, which in my opinion are not the 
best tool for this purpose.


We don't have any form of decision making process on mailing lists. As 
others have mentioned, when we make a project-wide vote (like DPL 
elections or a GR), then that's co-ordinated by the project secretary.


More information on https://vote.debian.org and in our constitution at 
https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution


I'd be interested in discussing about what can be done to improve this 
process.


Step one is really understanding the current decision making processes, 
its constraints, requirements, etc before suggesting enhancements. If 
you're starting on the basis of a guess that it's made on mailing lists, 
then that's not a great start.


Maybe we can give a try to LiquidFeedback 
(https://liquidfeedback.com/en/ ).


At least it's free software, it looks like it could be nice.

On the debian.net domain, volunteers in the project can host services 
not run by our official system administrators. One such site is 
https://surveys.debian.net/ - which can be used if someone wants more 
feedback in order to make a decision that doesn't need an official 
project-wide vote (or where we wouldn't require membership for a vote). 
An example of this is the artwork selection for each release (PSA: No 
one has stepped up to take care of this yet for bullseye, see: 
https://lists.debian.org/debian-desktop/2022/04/msg0.html).


However, it is somewhat cumbersome to set up, and even when it is, it 
has some UX issues that we struggled with, its reports are also quite 
complicated. So, having more methods to gather feedback would certainly 
already be valuable.


Can we arrange a meeting to discuss about it? I'll be at the DebConf up 
to 24.


Yep, and if you'd like to set up an instance for Debian, even as an 
experiment or proof-of-concept, you can get a subdomain by following 
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDotNet (you'll need a DD to help you) and 
a VM for it by following the instructions at: 
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDotNet


-Jonathan

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Marc Haber]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 11:55:20AM +0200, Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) wrote:
> On the debian.net domain, volunteers in the project can host services not
> run by our official system administrators. One such site is
> https://surveys.debian.net/ - which can be used if someone wants more
> feedback in order to make a decision that doesn't need an official
> project-wide vote (or where we wouldn't require membership for a vote). An
> example of this is the artwork selection for each release

There is never a day without learning. I have been a DD for more than 20
years now, and I didn't know that surveys.debian.net is being used to
decide on the artwork. Does the service have a possibility to send me
e-mail when a new survey becomes available? I tend not to look a
"random" pages regularly just to see whether there is somehing relevant
for me.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-
Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Hi Marc

On 2022/07/14 12:00, Marc Haber wrote:

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 11:55:20AM +0200, Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) wrote:

On the debian.net domain, volunteers in the project can host services not
run by our official system administrators. One such site is
https://surveys.debian.net/ - which can be used if someone wants more
feedback in order to make a decision that doesn't need an official
project-wide vote (or where we wouldn't require membership for a vote). An
example of this is the artwork selection for each release


There is never a day without learning. I have been a DD for more than 20
years now, and I didn't know that surveys.debian.net is being used to
decide on the artwork. Does the service have a possibility to send me
e-mail when a new survey becomes available? I tend not to look a
"random" pages regularly just to see whether there is somehing relevant
for me.


All DD's should really be subscribed to debian-devel-announce, where the 
call for artwork votes are usually announced, like:


https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2020/10/msg6.html

Also, if you enjoy learning things, there's #debian-til on IRC where 
people can share snippets of things that they have learned in Debian 
(especially the kind of things where we feel like we should've known it 
before and for some reason didn't).


-Jonathan

Re: Your personalized DC22 Key Signing Party Map is now available!

[Tobias Frost]

Am Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 10:24:48AM +0200 schrieb Dashamir Hoxha:
> On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 7:02 AM Gunnar Wolf  wrote:
> 
> >
> > always hold our continuou key signing party. The listing for this
> > year's KSP is now available at:
> >
> > https://people.debian.org/~gwolf/dc22_ksp/dc22_fprs.txt
> >
> > Please download that file, check the sha256 and ripemd160 sums, print
> > it out, and be ready for some CoC-abiding, fingerprint exchange action!
> >
> 
> It seems that there are printers at the venue.
> Does it make sense if the organizers of the conference print a few copies
> of the list, and the interested people go and get a copy?

The purpose of printing yourself it to ensure noone tampered with the file…

Said that, there is a printer in the silent hacklab[1].


-- 
tobi

[1] It might get moved, as it is not that silent…

Re: Your personalized DC22 Key Signing Party Map is now available!

[Stefano Rivera]

Hi Tobias (2022.07.14_10:31:27_+)
> The purpose of printing yourself it to ensure noone tampered with the file…

The intention of the conference-website based keysigning protocol is
that we could print such a list (on one page) and have it at front desk.
It wouldn't have fingerprints in it, just position IDs and names. The
fingerprints would be in the text file that you verify, and store on
your laptop.

So, the printed list is untrusted, except for keeping track of who you
have met and verified.

If someone made such a list, we could print it and have it at front
desk.

> Said that, there is a printer in the silent hacklab[1].

Which isn't for our use. The front desk printer is for our use.

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Tollef Fog Heen]

]] "Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)" 

> Hi Dashamir
> 
> On 2022/07/14 10:07, Dashamir Hoxha wrote:
> > I am not sure how democratic decision making is made in Debian, but
> > I guess it is done through mailing lists, which in my opinion are
> > not the best tool for this purpose.
> 
> We don't have any form of decision making process on mailing lists. As
> others have mentioned, when we make a project-wide vote (like DPL 
> elections or a GR), then that's co-ordinated by the project secretary.

I think the word «formal» is missing from the paragraph above (and even
in that case, things like proposing GRs and amendmends to ballot options
do happen on mailing lists, so it's a bit in the eye of the
beholder). :-) Quite a lot of decisions are made every day on mailing
lists (and IRC, Matrix, in person, and in a whole lot of other arenas)
they're just a lot less formal than GRs.

(As a more general comment to the suggestion to use liquidfeedback, I'm
not sure what problem is being addressed.  I think figuring that out
first is rather important.)

Cheers,
-- 
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl]

Hi!

Am 2022-07-14 12:05, schrieb Jonathan Carter (highvoltage):


Also, if you enjoy learning things, there's #debian-til on IRC where
people can share snippets of things that they have learned in Debian
(especially the kind of things where we feel like we should've known
it before and for some reason didn't).


TIL: There is #debian-til.


Thanks!

Re: Decision making in Debian

[Dashamir Hoxha]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 1:20 PM Tollef Fog Heen  wrote:

>
> > We don't have any form of decision making process on mailing lists. As
> > others have mentioned, when we make a project-wide vote (like DPL
> > elections or a GR), then that's co-ordinated by the project secretary.
>
> I think the word «formal» is missing from the paragraph above (and even
> in that case, things like proposing GRs and amendmends to ballot options
> do happen on mailing lists, so it's a bit in the eye of the
> beholder). :-) Quite a lot of decisions are made every day on mailing
> lists (and IRC, Matrix, in person, and in a whole lot of other arenas)
> they're just a lot less formal than GRs.
>
> (As a more general comment to the suggestion to use liquidfeedback, I'm
> not sure what problem is being addressed.  I think figuring that out
> first is rather important.)
>

LiquidFeedback is a tool designed for collaborative decision making. It
seems that there is some research behind it as well:
https://interaktive-demokratie.org/research.en.html
I don't claim that I understand these topics. I just have a feeling that it
might be useful for a group of people that try to make decisions
collaboratively, and it might be better than using ad-hoc tools and
methods. I am not sure that it does actually work, and that it does work as
expected, but I am willing to give it a try and to find it out.

Henry Ford, who industrialized the production of cars, is quoted to have
said: "If I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have said
faster horses."
My point is: let's give LiquidFeedback a try and see whether it is worth,
whether it solves any problems, etc. We can't know without trying it. We
don't need to invent and develop it (which might take a huge effort), we
just need to install it and give it a try, which is feasible in my opinion.

Re: Your personalized DC22 Key Signing Party Map is now available!

[Gunnar Wolf]

Dashamir Hoxha dijo [Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 10:24:48AM +0200]:
> > always hold our continuou key signing party. The listing for this
> > year's KSP is now available at:
> >
> > https://people.debian.org/~gwolf/dc22_ksp/dc22_fprs.txt
> >
> > Please download that file, check the sha256 and ripemd160 sums, print
> > it out, and be ready for some CoC-abiding, fingerprint exchange action!
> 
> It seems that there are printers at the venue.
> Does it make sense if the organizers of the conference print a few copies
> of the list, and the interested people go and get a copy?

Of course!

Salsa and Bachata dancing workshop

[jathan]

Hello there!

I will share some musicality and basic steps of Salsa and Bachata
tonight at 9:00 pm in the Noisy Hacklab. Feel free to join,

Cheers!
Jathan

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Bustillos
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄⠀

https://wiki.debian.org/jathan