Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Le mardi 01 février 2005 à 12:14 +, Daniel James a écrit : > Hi Jérôme, > > > The rebranding of Debian you describe has been going on > > > for some time, since the launch of Lindows at least, I'd say. > > > > Corel Linux was the first, I think. > > You could be right - I think I met someone from Corel back in '99 who > showed me something like KDE 1 on a 2.2 kernel. Of course it was sold > to Xandros later, so in that sense it's still going. Yes, and honestly, it was a failure. It was worst than the original Debian it came from. > Cheers > > Daniel
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
[..] > Windows users don't expect to help other users either - by their > numbers alone, you would expect there to be a massive amount of > user-made documentation available, but in my experience there's > probably better quality and more detailed help available online for > any of the popular Linux distributions. Also because you can see *exactly* what the software does, and even contact directly the upstream author. That's simply amazing! Most proprietary software companies will find it really hard to let you talk with their developers, especially about a bug in their software. They will sometimes even sue you for that. > Cheers > > Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Leopold Palomo-Avellaneda wrote: "Remember, don't be Microsoft's technical support!" That's exactly the point. People EXPECT you do give them free support if you've done it once. What they don't realise is that customers pay the company I work at up to 100 € per hour for my work. They do not see that this is hard and worthy work. I don't expect the local garage to change my tooth belt for free, either. (They charge 400 € for that ... screw Volkswagen!) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
A Dimarts 01 Febrer 2005 14:03, Johannes Klug va escriure: > Filippo Carone wrote: > >* Daniel James ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ha scritto: > >>upwards. Providing high quality end-user support for that product is > >>just a physical impossibility, even for a company the size of > >>Microsoft. > > > >imho Microsoft lacks community > > I don't think so. > The Microsoft Community(tm) differs from the FOSS-community, though. > FOSS people will write docs, test betas, send patches, maintain projects > and so forth. > MS's community has 10% of what I would call "helpers". These 10% of MS > users are proficient in hardware, software, and MS Windows. They are the > guys the nonproficient users use to call, when they "got some new > hardware and it doesn't work". Or whenever their Windows b0xen behaves > oddly (...). > > Microsoft profits greatly from these "helpers", since they give support > for their own flawed software FOR FREE. Remember, Microsoft seeks > profit, and these guys work for them for free. > I used to be a "helper", and within my family I still am. It's just too > hard to tell dad "No, I won't fix MS's shit, go open a support call". > But I deny help with MS products to almost everybody else. I offer them > to solve their problem by switching to Debian, however :) > > Regards, > Johannes Reading this, I could't avoid to mention this document: http://pinsa.escomposlinux.org/sromero/linux/pringao/techslacky.html and their final sentence: "Remember, don't be Microsoft's technical support!" this sentence have to be marked in our the face of ALL of us that have suffer this. I enjoy a lot mere and feel better doing the same but with Debian/Linux. regards -- -- Linux User 152692 Catalonia -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Filippo Carone wrote: * Daniel James ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ha scritto: upwards. Providing high quality end-user support for that product is just a physical impossibility, even for a company the size of Microsoft. imho Microsoft lacks community I don't think so. The Microsoft Community(tm) differs from the FOSS-community, though. FOSS people will write docs, test betas, send patches, maintain projects and so forth. MS's community has 10% of what I would call "helpers". These 10% of MS users are proficient in hardware, software, and MS Windows. They are the guys the nonproficient users use to call, when they "got some new hardware and it doesn't work". Or whenever their Windows b0xen behaves oddly (...). Microsoft profits greatly from these "helpers", since they give support for their own flawed software FOR FREE. Remember, Microsoft seeks profit, and these guys work for them for free. I used to be a "helper", and within my family I still am. It's just too hard to tell dad "No, I won't fix MS's shit, go open a support call". But I deny help with MS products to almost everybody else. I offer them to solve their problem by switching to Debian, however :) Regards, Johannes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Hi Filippo, > > Providing high quality end-user support for that product is > > just a physical impossibility, even for a company the size of > > Microsoft. > imho Microsoft lacks community I think they've admitted as much themselves - that's one aspect of free software they would love to be able to emulate. Windows users don't expect to help other users either - by their numbers alone, you would expect there to be a massive amount of user-made documentation available, but in my experience there's probably better quality and more detailed help available online for any of the popular Linux distributions. Cheers Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Hi Jérôme, > The rebranding of Debian you describe has been going on > > for some time, since the launch of Lindows at least, I'd say. > > Corel Linux was the first, I think. You could be right - I think I met someone from Corel back in '99 who showed me something like KDE 1 on a 2.2 kernel. Of course it was sold to Xandros later, so in that sense it's still going. Cheers Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
* Daniel James ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ha scritto: > upwards. Providing high quality end-user support for that product is > just a physical impossibility, even for a company the size of > Microsoft. imho Microsoft lacks community cheers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
[..] > I agree that's a potential challenge to Debian's democratic structure > if the community process is bypassed whenver it suits the company > concerned. The rebranding of Debian you describe has been going on > for some time, since the launch of Lindows at least, I'd say. Back in Corel Linux was the first, I think. > the late 90's I remember several thinly-disguised Red Hat rip-offs - > all gone now. > > Cheers > > Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Hi David, > One way to look at the difference is that a free distribution will > fail only if it can't grow big enough, whereas a commercial > distribution may also "fail" if it succeeds too well. Very true. It was pointed out to me recently that in that sense, Windows is the ultimate example of software which fails to scale upwards. Providing high quality end-user support for that product is just a physical impossibility, even for a company the size of Microsoft. Cheers Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote: You can't predict the future - neither for $COMMERCIAL_DISTRIBUTION (God knows what will be in 1 or 2 years with e.g. SuSE) nor for $FREE_DISTRIBUTION (yes there were several which are pretty out-of-business right now). One way to look at the difference is that a free distribution will fail only if it can't grow big enough, whereas a commercial distribution may also "fail" if it succeeds too well. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 10:13 +, Daniel James wrote: > Hi Tollef, [snip] > > I'm sure that's the case, but the degree of openness is relative - I'd > say the Debian project and Microsoft are the polar opposites here, > with everyone else somewhere in between. I don't think you can run a > business as a democracy, and that's not a criticism of Mark > Shuttleworth. I'm sure if I was funding a Linux distribution out of > my own pocket, I would want to be able to make the key decisions > about it too. You are mixing 2 independant variables: - type of License - type of "government" Think, instead : closed source | democracy +- dictarorship | FLOSS Slackware, RH, Ubutnu are open source dictatorships, Debian, of course, is a FLOSS democracy, and MSFT is a closed-source dictator- ship. Can't think of any closed source democracies, though. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. (N.B. - This is hyperbole, not a heartfelt part of my core beliefs.) Windows sucks. No, really. Any butt-wipe pseudo-OS that *needs* kludges like PC-Anywhere or RDP for remote access, and only allows 1 login at a time shouldn't be allowed to exist, and it's developers should be shot. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 12:47 +, Daniel James wrote: [...] > I agree that's a potential challenge to Debian's democratic structure > if the community process is bypassed whenver it suits the company The Debian structure seems pretty stable and robust - and has probably other problems because of the structure (and I'm quite OT now). > concerned. The rebranding of Debian you describe has been going on > for some time, since the launch of Lindows at least, I'd say. Back in Oh, I didn't know that (being historically a RedHat-User). > the late 90's I remember several thinly-disguised Red Hat rip-offs - > all gone now. Nobody knows knows how much embedded distributions are dead again. Bernd -- Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/ mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55 Embedded Linux Development and Services -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Hi Bernd, > You can't predict the future - neither for $COMMERCIAL_DISTRIBUTION > (God knows what will be in 1 or 2 years with e.g. SuSE) nor for > $FREE_DISTRIBUTION (yes there were several which are pretty > out-of-business right now). Quite. > > I really bought the idea that Red Hat was a > > community-oriented company, and at that stage I simply didn't > > forsee > > It was at that time. I think you're right, but it just goes to show how things can change - and why the community structure has to be solid. > Or to pose the question more provoking the other way around: What > happens if some company is selling support contracts to a Debian > fork/clone/copy/... with a completely different brand (but using > more or less the standard .debs with s/Debian/$BRAND/)? I agree that's a potential challenge to Debian's democratic structure if the community process is bypassed whenver it suits the company concerned. The rebranding of Debian you describe has been going on for some time, since the launch of Lindows at least, I'd say. Back in the late 90's I remember several thinly-disguised Red Hat rip-offs - all gone now. Cheers Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 10:13 +, Daniel James wrote: [...] > I expect that's the case, but what happens a few years down the line > when there's a fundamental disagreement? When I was a Red Hat 5.0 You can't predict the future - neither for $COMMERCIAL_DISTRIBUTION (God knows what will be in 1 or 2 years with e.g. SuSE) nor for $FREE_DISTRIBUTION (yes there were several which are pretty out-of-business right now). > user last century, I really bought the idea that Red Hat was a > community-oriented company, and at that stage I simply didn't forsee It was at that time. > that the stable distribution would become 'enterprise only' with a > price tag to match. And see we what happens today: They pay several people (initially 6, did't check recently) to work on Fedora. And there is now also http://www.centos.org/ and http://www.whiteboxlinux.org/. Or to pose the question more provoking the other way around: What happens if some company is selling support contracts to a Debian fork/clone/copy/... with a completely different brand (but using more or less the standard .debs with s/Debian/$BRAND/)? Bernd -- Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/ mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55 Embedded Linux Development and Services -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
* Daniel James | Hi Tollef, | | > | I don't think the development model is as democratic or open as | > | mainstream Debian either. I mean, if you wanted a particular | > | feature in Ubuntu but a certain well-known millionaire and space | > | tourist was dead against it, do you think it would be implemented | > | in his distribution? : ) | > | > We're usually open to ideas | | Just to clarify, when you say 'we' do you mean that you work for | Canonical, or are an Ubuntu project member? Yes. :) I'm doing some work for canonical and the AMD64 Czar in Ubuntu -- responsible for Ubuntu's AMD64 support. | > and you should have _really_ crazy ideas for them to be rejected | > outright. | | I expect that's the case, but what happens a few years down the line | when there's a fundamental disagreement? When I was a Red Hat 5.0 | user last century, I really bought the idea that Red Hat was a | community-oriented company, and at that stage I simply didn't forsee | that the stable distribution would become 'enterprise only' with a | price tag to match. | | I'm not saying that the same thing will happen to Canonical, it's just | an example of what can happen when interests diverge over time. I think this won't happen -- http://lwn.net/Articles/115459/ look at the part about Soyuz and Launchpad. It'll be easy to create derivatives where you can change stuff. (This is the thing I mentioned in the last mail.) -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Hi Tollef, > | I don't think the development model is as democratic or open as > | mainstream Debian either. I mean, if you wanted a particular > | feature in Ubuntu but a certain well-known millionaire and space > | tourist was dead against it, do you think it would be implemented > | in his distribution? : ) > > We're usually open to ideas Just to clarify, when you say 'we' do you mean that you work for Canonical, or are an Ubuntu project member? > and you should have _really_ crazy > ideas for them to be rejected outright. I expect that's the case, but what happens a few years down the line when there's a fundamental disagreement? When I was a Red Hat 5.0 user last century, I really bought the idea that Red Hat was a community-oriented company, and at that stage I simply didn't forsee that the stable distribution would become 'enterprise only' with a price tag to match. I'm not saying that the same thing will happen to Canonical, it's just an example of what can happen when interests diverge over time. > (And if so, we are working > on tools which should make it really easy for you to make ubuntu + > your crazy modifications and support that sanely.) That's very interesting - I'll keep an eye on that. > we _are_ an open community who wants people to join and > help out. I'm sure that's the case, but the degree of openness is relative - I'd say the Debian project and Microsoft are the polar opposites here, with everyone else somewhere in between. I don't think you can run a business as a democracy, and that's not a criticism of Mark Shuttleworth. I'm sure if I was funding a Linux distribution out of my own pocket, I would want to be able to make the key decisions about it too. Cheers! Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Hi Ron, > > I mean, if you wanted a particular > > feature in Ubuntu but a certain well-known millionaire and space > > tourist was dead against it, do you think it would be implemented > > in his distribution? : ) > > It's "his" distro. Paul Volkerding gets to make Slackware like > he wants, Mark Shuttleworth makes it like he wants, Klaus Knopper > makes it like he wants... Absolutely, but I think if we're comparing Ubuntu to mainstream Debian that's something users should be aware of. As I understand it, the Debian structure was set up as it is to avoid individual control over the project. > BTW, how many DDs is Ubutnu employing? I think it's great that people can be paid to work on free software. I do see the potential for conflict of interest though, and I'm sure Canonical will be taking steps to address that. Cheers Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
On Sat, 2005-01-29 at 08:59 +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > | Is their amd64 support just based on the pseudo-mainline pure64 sid? > > I think that «just» is unjustified. But it's based on the pure64 > port, yes. Ack! Please, I meant no offense! Only curious. :) I look forward to trying out the release. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
* David Wood | Is their amd64 support just based on the pseudo-mainline pure64 sid? I think that «just» is unjustified. But it's based on the pure64 port, yes. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
* Daniel James | I don't think the development model is as democratic or open as | mainstream Debian either. I mean, if you wanted a particular feature | in Ubuntu but a certain well-known millionaire and space tourist was | dead against it, do you think it would be implemented in his | distribution? : ) We're usually open to ideas, and you should have _really_ crazy ideas for them to be rejected outright. (And if so, we are working on tools which should make it really easy for you to make ubuntu + your crazy modifications and support that sanely.) http://www.ubuntu.com/wiki/MOTU has some information on maintainers and such; we _are_ an open community who wants people to join and help out. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Is their amd64 support just based on the pseudo-mainline pure64 sid? On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Daniel James wrote: Hi Johannes, "Hoary Hedgehog" is available as a native AMD64 version. Has anyone tested this thing so far? I tried the last version on my Opteron, and it was a very smooth install. The packages were well chosen, albeit biased towards GNOME. If you're looking for user-friendly Debian, it's a better bet that some other derivative versions, and the native amd64 support is a bonus. On the other hand, if you're the kind of person who likes to make their own setup choices then it may not be for you. (Mainstream Debian packages are available in 'universe' but they aren't supported). I don't think the development model is as democratic or open as mainstream Debian either. I mean, if you wanted a particular feature in Ubuntu but a certain well-known millionaire and space tourist was dead against it, do you think it would be implemented in his distribution? : ) Cheers Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
On Fri, 2005-01-28 at 17:55 +, Daniel James wrote: [snip] > I don't think the development model is as democratic or open as > mainstream Debian either. I mean, if you wanted a particular feature > in Ubuntu but a certain well-known millionaire and space tourist was > dead against it, do you think it would be implemented in his > distribution? : ) It's "his" distro. Paul Volkerding gets to make Slackware like he wants, Mark Shuttleworth makes it like he wants, Klaus Knopper makes it like he wants... BTW, how many DDs is Ubutnu employing? -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. "This is the optimal setup for a geek. Your wife thinks you are with your girlfriend, your girlfriend thinks, you have to look for your wife, and you have time to do something with your computer." http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=98180&cid=8396791 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
* Johannes Klug ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ha scritto: > Hello! > The Ubuntu Team has recently released [1] a new version of their live-cd > distro. > > "Hoary Hedgehog" is available as a native AMD64 version. > Has anyone tested this thing so far? > How does it fare? I tried it. The live cd has been able to detect everything, and I ended up using gnome 2.9.4 at 1280x1024 which is the resolution I use normally. In the overall I think it is nice, but from my point of view some tools. Compared to, let's say, Knoppix it has far less applications. It is OK for home and office use. cheers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Hi Johannes, > "Hoary Hedgehog" is available as a native AMD64 version. > Has anyone tested this thing so far? I tried the last version on my Opteron, and it was a very smooth install. The packages were well chosen, albeit biased towards GNOME. If you're looking for user-friendly Debian, it's a better bet that some other derivative versions, and the native amd64 support is a bonus. On the other hand, if you're the kind of person who likes to make their own setup choices then it may not be for you. (Mainstream Debian packages are available in 'universe' but they aren't supported). I don't think the development model is as democratic or open as mainstream Debian either. I mean, if you wanted a particular feature in Ubuntu but a certain well-known millionaire and space tourist was dead against it, do you think it would be implemented in his distribution? : ) Cheers Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 06:34:37PM +0100, Johannes Klug wrote: > The Ubuntu Team has recently released [1] a new version of their live-cd > distro. > > "Hoary Hedgehog" is available as a native AMD64 version. > Has anyone tested this thing so far? > How does it fare? Works great on a Sun V20z box. It'll be a very useful rescue/diagnostic CD at least. It appears to use the debian installer's hardware detection and rather than going into an installer, boots into a GNOME desktop. Ryan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
Downloading as we speak, but at the rate it's coming, it'll be tomorrow before I get to test it. cmr On Friday 28 January 2005 11:34 am, Johannes Klug wrote: > Hello! > The Ubuntu Team has recently released [1] a new version of their live-cd > distro. > > "Hoary Hedgehog" is available as a native AMD64 version. > Has anyone tested this thing so far? > How does it fare? > > Best regards, > Johannes Klug > > [1] > http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2005-January/11.html -- Debian 'Sarge': Registered Linux User #241964 "More laws, less justice." -- Marcus Tullius Ciceroca, 42 BC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ubuntu with AMD64 Support
On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 06:34:37PM +0100, Johannes Klug wrote: > "Hoary Hedgehog" is available as a native AMD64 version. > Has anyone tested this thing so far? > How does it fare? I'm running it here (as an installed version, not the live CD), and have been for a couple of weeks. It's very nice. Fewer of the sharp edges I found with Warty (not that there were many to start with). Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 1C335860 from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- You've read the project plan. Forget that. We're going to Do --- Stuff and Have Fun doing it. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
