Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either
Please do not send bug reports --- On 5 Mar 2012 at 18:34, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: Subject:Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either Send reply to: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com, 630...@bugs.debian.org Forwarded by: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com Forwarded to: debian-bugs-d...@lists.debian.org Date forwarded: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:36:41 + From: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com Date sent: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 18:34:47 +0100 To: Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org Copies to: 630...@bugs.debian.org [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ] On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:55, Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org wrote: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, le Mon 05 Mar 2012 12:36:40 +0100, a écrit : I must say I find this annoying as well, the Icelandic Dvorak Keyboard layout is also missing, so my installation of Debian always goes like this: 1. I choose Dvorak Why not just choosing Icelandic? (which is already selected by default) 2. I can't type my real name when I create a user, I type whatever instead 3. I'm limited in the passwords I can pick You'd then be able to type your real name and not be limited. Because that's Icelandic *qwerty*. Which is completely different than Icelandic Dvorak. If I picked that it would take me 2-3x as long to install the system since every time I wanted to type something I'd have to hunt-and-peck type instead of touch-type. To see what that's like, if you happen to use QWERTY, try installing the system with a Dvorak keyboard. I hadn't bothered with looking into whether this was a debian-installer bug before, I just assumed that it was an issue in the layout not being available. As said in first answer to the bug, this is on purpose, to avoid a profusion of choices in the list of keymaps, to keep installing Debian as simple as possible. We assume that people who know dvorak also know the traditional layout and will be able to change the layout afterwards by dpkg-reconfigure-ing keyboard-configuration. I think a much better way to deal with this would be to have a way to collapse these options. So when you select e.g. Norwegian you get a second dialog where you can select the keyboard type, i.e. standard, dvorak etc. Which was precisely rejected because it'd confuse users which don't know what dvorak is. Or just list them all, the region and language dialog in GNOME does so and users don't get too confused by that. Experience showed they do. And that would carry a lot of translations, making d-i bigger and unusable in small platforms. This bug is really not about Dvorak, but about the d-i offering only an arbitrary subset of the keyboard layout that a full Debian system offers. E.g. it doesn't offer Colemak at all either which means that anyone used to that layout would also have a really hard time installing the system, even if they didn't need to type non-ASCII characters. Anyway, you seem to be making several distinct points here: 1. That this couldn't be made to work from a UI point of view. I don't think this is true at all. The Ubuntu installer, which I find much simpler than Debian's (even though I prefer Debian when it comes to the end result) allows you to select all the keyboard layouts you get on post-installation. Here's Debian's: CLI: http://i.imgur.com/zPSvv.png GUI: http://i.imgur.com/TjoYU.png And Ubuntu's: http://i.imgur.com/CCsCw.png Ubuntu just selects the most common option, but allows you to change it if you want to. The d-i could do the same thing with another dialog box. Even if all of this was hidden under some top-level Other box users such as myself would be able to select it. This is exactly how the timezone dialog works already, there's a *lot* of timezones, and the d-i manages that complexity without excluding some rare timezones and having users update /etc/timezone after installation. 2. That the translations would get bigger I very much doubt that, especially since most of the translations of the descriptions are basically all repetitions, i.e. $language_name ($variant). But if that were true having it untranslated under some optional menu would still allow the user to select it. 3. That some experience has showed that the Region Language dialog in GNOME is too complex, what experience exactly? Anyway, I'm not very interested in winning some argument about this on a bug tracker. The reason I commented here was that I was going to patch the d-i to allow me to select arbitrary keyboard layouts, but I noticed this bug, and I'm not interested in spending time on it if it's just going to get Wontfix'd. Dealing with this is a PITA for me when I install Debian, but having
Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either
Please do not send bug reports --- On 5 Mar 2012 at 12:36, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: Subject:Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either Send reply to: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com, 630...@bugs.debian.org Forwarded by: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com Forwarded to: debian-bugs-d...@lists.debian.org Date forwarded: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:39:01 + From: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com Date sent: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:36:40 +0100 To: 630...@bugs.debian.org [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ] I must say I find this annoying as well, the Icelandic Dvorak Keyboard layout is also missing, so my installation of Debian always goes like this: 1. I choose Dvorak 2. I can't type my real name when I create a user, I type whatever instead 3. I'm limited in the passwords I can pick Then after installation I have to go and manually adjust these settings once I have the keyboard layout I want. I hadn't bothered with looking into whether this was a debian-installer bug before, I just assumed that it was an issue in the layout not being available. I think a much better way to deal with this would be to have a way to collapse these options. So when you select e.g. Norwegian you get a second dialog where you can select the keyboard type, i.e. standard, dvorak etc. Or just list them all, the region and language dialog in GNOME does so and users don't get too confused by that. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CACBZZX7v0- vwmjg78gpfr86aqtp5isiw_yrdp-vs3gpjr7e...@mail.gmail.com
Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either
On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 01:47, Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org wrote: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, le Mon 05 Mar 2012 18:34:47 +0100, a écrit : On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:55, Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org wrote: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, le Mon 05 Mar 2012 12:36:40 +0100, a écrit : I must say I find this annoying as well, the Icelandic Dvorak Keyboard layout is also missing, so my installation of Debian always goes like this: 1. I choose Dvorak Why not just choosing Icelandic? (which is already selected by default) 2. I can't type my real name when I create a user, I type whatever instead 3. I'm limited in the passwords I can pick You'd then be able to type your real name and not be limited. Because that's Icelandic *qwerty*. Which is completely different than Icelandic Dvorak. It is understood that it's completely different, just like all dvorak layouts. If I picked that it would take me 2-3x as long to install the system since every time I wanted to type something I'd have to hunt-and-peck type instead of touch-type. That much? The d-i team assumed that anybody who knows a dvorak layout would know the traditional layout too, even if a bit less trained to it. To see what that's like, if you happen to use QWERTY, try installing the system with a Dvorak keyboard. Which to our knowledge is far from comparable: there are way less dvorak keyboards on sale than qwerty keyboards. In the common shops in the countries I have visited, it's a 0 ratio. Yeah, I actually can't type better than someone who's just seen a QWERTY keyboard for the first time on QWERTY. While Dvorak users are by far in the minority the number of Dvorak keyboards on sale doesn't tell you anything about how many there are. I and almost everyone else using Dvorak don't use a special Dvorak keyboard, we just remap the keys on a qwerty keyboard and touch-type. At both home and work I type on a keyboard that appears to be QWERTY, but I just remap the keys with setxkbmap -layout XX -variant dvorak. Anyway, not to respond to every single point in your original E-Mail I completely see your point, you'd like to not confuse most users and reduce the d-i size. I completely understand that, and I also understand that users like myself are by far in the minority. I just wanted to comment here to see if you'd be interested in taking patches to include 100% of the keyboard layouts that are available after installation. If you're not let's just leave this as a wontfix. I understand your rationale, but as someone who prefers Debian over Ubuntu I think it's a shame that Ubuntu is easier for me to install than Debian. That's all. Thanks for all your work on d-i. It's *much* better than it was just a few years ago, I really appreciate the work of people such as yourself, and please don't let my relatively minor grievance get to you, all in all this is just a minor point of pain for me and very few other people. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CACBZZX4xG5d67NhFeOgA_Hb-NePvqdepvAR8U=tMQy=8+nr...@mail.gmail.com
Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either
I must say I find this annoying as well, the Icelandic Dvorak Keyboard layout is also missing, so my installation of Debian always goes like this: 1. I choose Dvorak 2. I can't type my real name when I create a user, I type whatever instead 3. I'm limited in the passwords I can pick Then after installation I have to go and manually adjust these settings once I have the keyboard layout I want. I hadn't bothered with looking into whether this was a debian-installer bug before, I just assumed that it was an issue in the layout not being available. I think a much better way to deal with this would be to have a way to collapse these options. So when you select e.g. Norwegian you get a second dialog where you can select the keyboard type, i.e. standard, dvorak etc. Or just list them all, the region and language dialog in GNOME does so and users don't get too confused by that. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cacbzzx7v0-vwmjg78gpfr86aqtp5isiw_yrdp-vs3gpjr7e...@mail.gmail.com
Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, le Mon 05 Mar 2012 12:36:40 +0100, a écrit : I must say I find this annoying as well, the Icelandic Dvorak Keyboard layout is also missing, so my installation of Debian always goes like this: 1. I choose Dvorak Why not just choosing Icelandic? (which is already selected by default) 2. I can't type my real name when I create a user, I type whatever instead 3. I'm limited in the passwords I can pick You'd then be able to type your real name and not be limited. I hadn't bothered with looking into whether this was a debian-installer bug before, I just assumed that it was an issue in the layout not being available. As said in first answer to the bug, this is on purpose, to avoid a profusion of choices in the list of keymaps, to keep installing Debian as simple as possible. We assume that people who know dvorak also know the traditional layout and will be able to change the layout afterwards by dpkg-reconfigure-ing keyboard-configuration. I think a much better way to deal with this would be to have a way to collapse these options. So when you select e.g. Norwegian you get a second dialog where you can select the keyboard type, i.e. standard, dvorak etc. Which was precisely rejected because it'd confuse users which don't know what dvorak is. Or just list them all, the region and language dialog in GNOME does so and users don't get too confused by that. Experience showed they do. And that would carry a lot of translations, making d-i bigger and unusable in small platforms. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120305115551.gn4...@type.bordeaux.inria.fr
Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:55, Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org wrote: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, le Mon 05 Mar 2012 12:36:40 +0100, a écrit : I must say I find this annoying as well, the Icelandic Dvorak Keyboard layout is also missing, so my installation of Debian always goes like this: 1. I choose Dvorak Why not just choosing Icelandic? (which is already selected by default) 2. I can't type my real name when I create a user, I type whatever instead 3. I'm limited in the passwords I can pick You'd then be able to type your real name and not be limited. Because that's Icelandic *qwerty*. Which is completely different than Icelandic Dvorak. If I picked that it would take me 2-3x as long to install the system since every time I wanted to type something I'd have to hunt-and-peck type instead of touch-type. To see what that's like, if you happen to use QWERTY, try installing the system with a Dvorak keyboard. I hadn't bothered with looking into whether this was a debian-installer bug before, I just assumed that it was an issue in the layout not being available. As said in first answer to the bug, this is on purpose, to avoid a profusion of choices in the list of keymaps, to keep installing Debian as simple as possible. We assume that people who know dvorak also know the traditional layout and will be able to change the layout afterwards by dpkg-reconfigure-ing keyboard-configuration. I think a much better way to deal with this would be to have a way to collapse these options. So when you select e.g. Norwegian you get a second dialog where you can select the keyboard type, i.e. standard, dvorak etc. Which was precisely rejected because it'd confuse users which don't know what dvorak is. Or just list them all, the region and language dialog in GNOME does so and users don't get too confused by that. Experience showed they do. And that would carry a lot of translations, making d-i bigger and unusable in small platforms. This bug is really not about Dvorak, but about the d-i offering only an arbitrary subset of the keyboard layout that a full Debian system offers. E.g. it doesn't offer Colemak at all either which means that anyone used to that layout would also have a really hard time installing the system, even if they didn't need to type non-ASCII characters. Anyway, you seem to be making several distinct points here: 1. That this couldn't be made to work from a UI point of view. I don't think this is true at all. The Ubuntu installer, which I find much simpler than Debian's (even though I prefer Debian when it comes to the end result) allows you to select all the keyboard layouts you get on post-installation. Here's Debian's: CLI: http://i.imgur.com/zPSvv.png GUI: http://i.imgur.com/TjoYU.png And Ubuntu's: http://i.imgur.com/CCsCw.png Ubuntu just selects the most common option, but allows you to change it if you want to. The d-i could do the same thing with another dialog box. Even if all of this was hidden under some top-level Other box users such as myself would be able to select it. This is exactly how the timezone dialog works already, there's a *lot* of timezones, and the d-i manages that complexity without excluding some rare timezones and having users update /etc/timezone after installation. 2. That the translations would get bigger I very much doubt that, especially since most of the translations of the descriptions are basically all repetitions, i.e. $language_name ($variant). But if that were true having it untranslated under some optional menu would still allow the user to select it. 3. That some experience has showed that the Region Language dialog in GNOME is too complex, what experience exactly? Anyway, I'm not very interested in winning some argument about this on a bug tracker. The reason I commented here was that I was going to patch the d-i to allow me to select arbitrary keyboard layouts, but I noticed this bug, and I'm not interested in spending time on it if it's just going to get Wontfix'd. Dealing with this is a PITA for me when I install Debian, but having to maintain a fork of the d-i and create custom CD images from it would be an even bigger PITA. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cacbzzx6jtqrxiw9ecenk7-ct4ii6ez71ajsujftcm_jlwrk...@mail.gmail.com
Bug#630575: Icelandic Dvorak keyboard layout isn't there either
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, le Mon 05 Mar 2012 18:34:47 +0100, a écrit : On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:55, Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org wrote: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, le Mon 05 Mar 2012 12:36:40 +0100, a écrit : I must say I find this annoying as well, the Icelandic Dvorak Keyboard layout is also missing, so my installation of Debian always goes like this: 1. I choose Dvorak Why not just choosing Icelandic? (which is already selected by default) 2. I can't type my real name when I create a user, I type whatever instead 3. I'm limited in the passwords I can pick You'd then be able to type your real name and not be limited. Because that's Icelandic *qwerty*. Which is completely different than Icelandic Dvorak. It is understood that it's completely different, just like all dvorak layouts. If I picked that it would take me 2-3x as long to install the system since every time I wanted to type something I'd have to hunt-and-peck type instead of touch-type. That much? The d-i team assumed that anybody who knows a dvorak layout would know the traditional layout too, even if a bit less trained to it. To see what that's like, if you happen to use QWERTY, try installing the system with a Dvorak keyboard. Which to our knowledge is far from comparable: there are way less dvorak keyboards on sale than qwerty keyboards. In the common shops in the countries I have visited, it's a 0 ratio. Experience showed they do. And that would carry a lot of translations, making d-i bigger and unusable in small platforms. This bug is really not about Dvorak, but about the d-i offering only an arbitrary subset of the keyboard layout that a full Debian system offers. Which is on purpose. As has been discussed at lengths on debian-boot, in a lot of cases showing all the choices is really just spurious. For the french layout for instance, there is a dozen variants, from which the average user will have no idea what to choose, while the standard one will just fit anybody who ever worked with any french keyboards. The subset is definitely *not* completely arbitrary, it is a careful selection. For cases that do matter, d-i does include the variants which can be useful, and only those that are known to be well-known in the area, e.g. Kurdish and Turkish F vs Q layout, or bulgarian phonetic layout. If the dvorak layout is really so much spread in Iceland that people really miss the choice, then it can be proposed for addition, but the debian-boot discussions ended up on not providing dvorak layouts, and the (US) Dvorak choice currently proposed is actually questioned. E.g. it doesn't offer Colemak at all either which means that anyone used to that layout would also have a really hard time installing the system, even if they didn't need to type non-ASCII characters. Same answer as above: we believe that people who know Colemak are able to type with qwerty. 1. That this couldn't be made to work from a UI point of view. I don't think this is true at all. The Ubuntu installer, which I find much simpler than Debian's (even though I prefer Debian when it comes to the end result) allows you to select all the keyboard layouts you get on post-installation. Here's Debian's: CLI: http://i.imgur.com/zPSvv.png GUI: http://i.imgur.com/TjoYU.png And Ubuntu's: http://i.imgur.com/CCsCw.png Ubuntu just selects the most common option, but allows you to change it if you want to. The d-i could do the same thing with another dialog box. Which is precisely what was initially done, and was rejected because there are a lot of just useless choices for a mere installation. Even if all of this was hidden under some top-level Other box users such as myself would be able to select it. That brings down to to point 2. This is exactly how the timezone dialog works already, there's a *lot* of timezones, and the d-i manages that complexity without excluding some rare timezones and having users update /etc/timezone after installation. Yes, because the user will usually know what to answer. In the case of keyboard layouts, they often don't. See the monster Review of console-setup wrt D-I [very long] thread, starting at http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2009/06/msg00759.html 2. That the translations would get bigger I very much doubt that, Never doubt before seeing numbers. xkb-data's 39 .mo files amount to 2.2MiB (about 56KiB each). The translation of the d-i answers amounts to about 5KiB for each translation, ending up with about 2MiB saving, which is huge by d-i standards. BTW, dropping the actual non-standard layouts also brings pc105.ekmap from 1MiB down to 300KiB. Again a precious saving for d-i. especially since most of the translations of the descriptions are basically all repetitions, i.e. $language_name ($variant). Yes, that compresses well, but still.
