Re: trimming fat in busybox (was Re: Installer online help)
On Tue Jun 12, 2001 at 09:46:10PM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > Erik Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Oh, thats right. > > I wonder if I should trim out some of the fat in the .deb then. > > For example, the .deb contains the busybox shell (lash), which > > is not being used... I expect a bit of hunting could find a > > fw others. > > Fat trimming sounds worthwhile to me... > > I'd hate to make the .deb less useful generally -- but I would love > the space savings... busybox 1:0.51-8, which was installed into the archive yesterday, no longer contains lash in busybox, saving you 20k. If you can give me other busybox apps that are not used or useful, I'll be happy to disable them as well. -Erik -- Erik B. Andersen email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons-- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
"Chris Tillman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > In my case I did end up finding a quick reference sheet on the web after my > first few weeks of trying to get Debian installed. But it didn't include > many of the commands that are available, and was bash-oriented, so it really > wasn't much help. That's a good point, but you should contribute to debian-doc about such things. You have to remember that boot-floppies is end of life. I don't wanna sink a lot of time and waste space on command-line help. I don't think it's worth it. I don't think I'm being dismissive of i18n either, because I also fear the bloat of root.bin, which i18n needs every byte... -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
"Chris Tillman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > New users feel completely lost; even if the information is right there, they > don't know how to get at it. No, new users shouldn't have to use tty2 at all. -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
trimming fat in busybox (was Re: Installer online help)
Erik Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Oh, thats right. > I wonder if I should trim out some of the fat in the .deb then. > For example, the .deb contains the busybox shell (lash), which > is not being used... I expect a bit of hunting could find a > fw others. Fat trimming sounds worthwhile to me... I'd hate to make the .deb less useful generally -- but I would love the space savings... -- .Adam Di [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onshored.com/> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
> I'll propose the following, and I can help too, probably, if this sounds like a > good idea: > > 1. translate config.XX.h in busybox. This would give us a common base for > creating i18n help files. > One of the following: > A. provide just compile time i18n of busybox plus the creation of a number of > i18n help files that Debian can use. Those help files will be included in the > .deb and i18n boot-floppies will install them and use them as it wishes. I think the most important thing is having everything in one place, so people can browse without having to type --help on every command. Would the config.XX.h still be something that could be displayed with an easy help command? Another complication is that there are around 2 dozen commands in the installer system which are not in busybox. I think it's a worthy goal to have everything internationalized, even if right now we don't think many people will use it. As time goes on, more and more people will. We do have to live within our space constraints though. I noticed in the post a couple weeks ago http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot-0106/msg00406.html";>Root disk problems for i18n floppies, there were lots of little files for release-notes and messages. Probably lots of fragmentation space could be saved if they were just archived together. In potato i386 there is a utility that adds the specific language files to a generic boot disk, has that gone away? Anyway I strayed off topic. I thought about adding it to the install documentation rather than having it online - of course those docs are already in the translation queue. But, as someone said, the average user - if there is such a thing - won't need or use it so it really doesn't belong there. And many people, especially those used to MacOS, will try to install without reading anything first. In my case I did end up finding a quick reference sheet on the web after my first few weeks of trying to get Debian installed. But it didn't include many of the commands that are available, and was bash-oriented, so it really wasn't much help. -- Chris Tillman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
David Whedon wrote: >The nice things i see about this is that the messages have a chance of being >maintained if put into busybox cvs. The problem is that they are separated from >the people who actually want the messages to exist (Debian), though not too far, >since busybox is pretty Debian friendly (already has a dpkg applet :-) ) > b.t.w at people.debian.org/~bug1 i have a patch against the current cvs version of busybox that changes ar, untar, dpkg-deb and dpkg and their underlying function in libbb. I havent commited yet because im a bit unsure of a few things and havent had much feedback. The dpkg in the patch is pretty much a rewrite, all it can do is install a package that doesnt already exist, it doesnt have any dependency code in it yet which is really needed to do other stuff properly. The existing dpkg applet tries to do more but i think could break in a number of circumstances. So which is better ? I am pretty happy with dpkg-deb now in terms of its size and functionality. Also i have made an untar applet which is a cheaper alternative to the proper busybox tar applet which i am unsure about commiting. Glenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
On Mon Jun 11, 2001 at 02:03:21PM -0700, David Whedon wrote: > Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:55:40PM +0200 wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:42:51AM -0600, Erik Andersen wrote: > > > On Sun Jun 10, 2001 at 08:38:50PM -0700, David Whedon wrote: > > > > That is a good point. The suggestion of dynmically using the busybox help > > > > probably doesn't treat transloations very well, unless busybox wants translated > > > > help. > > > > > > I'm willing to accept patches to properly internationalize busybox. But I > > > expect that is going to be a lot of effort with very little visible benefit. > > > > Very little visible benefit ? Are you stating that all new Debian users speak > > fluent English ? No. I am stating that 99.999% of all people who use the Debian boot floppies will never ever see or interact with any busybox utilities. When using the boot floppies to install Debian, the average user will use dbootstrap, the nice friendly internationalized installer program, to install things. Very, very few people will ever see or use 'cp' or 'mv' or 'sed' or any of the other busybox commands directly. Of those very very few people that do use these programs, most will never know or care if these utilities have no help messages, english help messages, or have nice i18n for their local tongue. I agree that there will be some people who will use these utilities, and would prefer them to have help text in their own language. For those people I am willing to accept patches. > I'm sure that isn't what eric means. Too much out of context here. busybox is > used by Debian, but has a life all it's own in the embedded world. In the > embedded world busybox doesn't have a whole lot of interaction with real people. And to be honest, it does not have a lot of interaction with real people even on the debian boot floppies... > > The nice things i see about this is that the messages have a chance of being > maintained if put into busybox cvs. The problem is that they are separated from > the people who actually want the messages to exist (Debian), though not too far, > since busybox is pretty Debian friendly (already has a dpkg applet :-) ) And it has a Debian developer for an upstream maintainer. -Erik -- Erik B. Andersen email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons-- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:55:40PM +0200 wrote: > On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:42:51AM -0600, Erik Andersen wrote: > > On Sun Jun 10, 2001 at 08:38:50PM -0700, David Whedon wrote: > > > That is a good point. The suggestion of dynmically using the busybox help > > > probably doesn't treat transloations very well, unless busybox wants translated > > > help. > > > > I'm willing to accept patches to properly internationalize busybox. But I > > expect that is going to be a lot of effort with very little visible benefit. > > Very little visible benefit ? Are you stating that all new Debian users speak > fluent English ? I'm sure that isn't what eric means. Too much out of context here. busybox is used by Debian, but has a life all it's own in the embedded world. In the embedded world busybox doesn't have a whole lot of interaction with real people. I agree that given busybox's purpose in the world _runtime_ i18n of busybox may not worth it (busybox is supposed to be small). However, translations of usage.h to usage.XX.h in the busybox source may get us what we want and provide both some benefit to busybox (compile time localization) as well as give Debian what it needs in a maintainable way. I'll propose the following, and I can help too, probably, if this sounds like a good idea: 1. translate config.XX.h in busybox. This would give us a common base for creating i18n help files. One of the following: A. provide just compile time i18n of busybox plus the creation of a number of i18n help files that Debian can use. Those help files will be included in the .deb and i18n boot-floppies will install them and use them as it wishes. B. provide some sort of custom runtime i18n of busybox, properly integrated with options for turning off various langages, etc. This would be bigger but has the benefit of being cleaner and would allow people to get the i18n 'help' messages. The nice things i see about this is that the messages have a chance of being maintained if put into busybox cvs. The problem is that they are separated from the people who actually want the messages to exist (Debian), though not too far, since busybox is pretty Debian friendly (already has a dpkg applet :-) ) David It is worth it for Debian to have i18n. There are many ways we can do this. I suggest the following approach: -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:42:51AM -0600, Erik Andersen wrote: > On Sun Jun 10, 2001 at 08:38:50PM -0700, David Whedon wrote: > > That is a good point. The suggestion of dynmically using the busybox help > > probably doesn't treat transloations very well, unless busybox wants translated > > help. > > I'm willing to accept patches to properly internationalize busybox. But I > expect that is going to be a lot of effort with very little visible benefit. Very little visible benefit ? Are you stating that all new Debian users speak fluent English ? -- Eric VAN BUGGENHAUT [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
On Mon Jun 11, 2001 at 10:29:33AM -0700, David Whedon wrote: > > > On x86: > > > > [root@slag busybox_udeb_builddir]# ll ./busybox.help > > -rwxr-xr-x1 root root 148988 Jun 11 10:48 ./busybox.help* > > [root@slag busybox_udeb_builddir]# ll ./busybox.orig > > -rwxr-xr-x1 root root 136188 Jun 11 10:47 ./busybox.orig* > > > > So on x86, enabling BB_FEATURE_VERBOSE_USAGE adds 12.5k, and brings the > > busybox.udeb binary to 145k. > > We're talking about boot-floppies, I thought, boot floppies uses the .deb Oh, thats right. I wonder if I should trim out some of the fat in the .deb then. For example, the .deb contains the busybox shell (lash), which is not being used... I expect a bit of hunting could find a fw others. -Erik -- Erik B. Andersen email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons-- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:51:43AM -0600 wrote: > On Sun Jun 10, 2001 at 02:52:50PM -0700, David Whedon wrote: > > > > FWIW busybox does have better help if you turn it on : > > bb with very little help: > > -rwxr-xr-x root/root180316 2001-06-10 14:22:28 ./bin/busybox > > > > bb with better help: > > -rwxr-xr-x root/root195804 2001-06-10 14:29:32 ./bin/busybox > > > > That is more space than what you are proposing, but it does involve a bit of > > duplication of effort and maintenance. I don't feel strongly either way. > > Which arch is this? x86 > On x86: > > [root@slag busybox_udeb_builddir]# ll ./busybox.help > -rwxr-xr-x1 root root 148988 Jun 11 10:48 ./busybox.help* > [root@slag busybox_udeb_builddir]# ll ./busybox.orig > -rwxr-xr-x1 root root 136188 Jun 11 10:47 ./busybox.orig* > > So on x86, enabling BB_FEATURE_VERBOSE_USAGE adds 12.5k, and brings the > busybox.udeb binary to 145k. We're talking about boot-floppies, I thought, boot floppies uses the .deb -David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
On Sun Jun 10, 2001 at 02:52:50PM -0700, David Whedon wrote: > > FWIW busybox does have better help if you turn it on : > bb with very little help: > -rwxr-xr-x root/root180316 2001-06-10 14:22:28 ./bin/busybox > > bb with better help: > -rwxr-xr-x root/root195804 2001-06-10 14:29:32 ./bin/busybox > > That is more space than what you are proposing, but it does involve a bit of > duplication of effort and maintenance. I don't feel strongly either way. Which arch is this? On x86: [root@slag busybox_udeb_builddir]# ll ./busybox.help -rwxr-xr-x1 root root 148988 Jun 11 10:48 ./busybox.help* [root@slag busybox_udeb_builddir]# ll ./busybox.orig -rwxr-xr-x1 root root 136188 Jun 11 10:47 ./busybox.orig* So on x86, enabling BB_FEATURE_VERBOSE_USAGE adds 12.5k, and brings the busybox.udeb binary to 145k. -Erik -- Erik B. Andersen email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons-- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
On Sun Jun 10, 2001 at 08:38:50PM -0700, David Whedon wrote: > That is a good point. The suggestion of dynmically using the busybox help > probably doesn't treat transloations very well, unless busybox wants translated > help. I'm willing to accept patches to properly internationalize busybox. But I expect that is going to be a lot of effort with very little visible benefit. -Erik -- Erik B. Andersen email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons-- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:27:11AM -0300, Peter Cordes wrote: > gzipping a gzipped file doesn't make it any smaller, so compressing before > making it part of the filesystem won't save space. The larger filesystem > created by leaving it uncompressed will be matched by the better > compressability of the filesystem. we should also have a bit of free space on the ramdisk filesystem since there are places where tmp files are created and such. > OTOH, compressing it first would make it take a different number of disk > blocks, unless it was so small it would take only one or two anyway. Extra > filesystem overhead could be smaller, so gzipping it first might make sense. > Anyway, a smaller uncompressed FS needs less RAM when unpacked. Since it's > kernel memory, it's not pageable, so it really hurts to have big initrds on > very low memory systems. if it were 1024 bytes or less compressing wouldn't matter, becaues of block sizes, but if we can take 6000 bytes down to 1000 or so we savea few blocks.. whatever which ever way makes the most sense. we need some free space on the uncompressed root filesystem too. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Installer online help
On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 09:34:50PM -0800, Ethan Benson wrote: > On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:41:59PM -0700, Chris Tillman wrote: > > >> > > >> nano-tiny -T15 -v /help.txt > > > > > > why not zcat /help.gz | more ? > > > > That would work, but I used tabs to make two columns; using the editor lets > > me choose how much space for a tab so it's more readable and also gives the > > novice an interface to use to search for keywords, and scroll back and > > forth. > > you can format it without depending on specific editor features. and > i thought more could scroll backwords, at least some implementations > can. it just uses control keys and not the arrows iirc (this was back > in my Digital Unix days). > > > > we could save space using the above command. reading files in editors > > > is bad practice. > > > > > Isn't it all compressed by the time it gets into root.bin? > > not the point, we don't have much room on the filesystem itself, the > larger the filesystem gets the larger the disk image gets. gzipping a gzipped file doesn't make it any smaller, so compressing before making it part of the filesystem won't save space. The larger filesystem created by leaving it uncompressed will be matched by the better compressability of the filesystem. OTOH, compressing it first would make it take a different number of disk blocks, unless it was so small it would take only one or two anyway. Extra filesystem overhead could be smaller, so gzipping it first might make sense. Anyway, a smaller uncompressed FS needs less RAM when unpacked. Since it's kernel memory, it's not pageable, so it really hurts to have big initrds on very low memory systems. -- #define X(x,y) x##y Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X([EMAIL PROTECTED] , ns.ca) "The gods confound the man who first found out how to distinguish the hours! Confound him, too, who in this place set up a sundial, to cut and hack my day so wretchedly into small pieces!" -- Plautus, 200 BCE -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
> please send a updated version of your help doc formatted to work with > more and i can apply it. OK, thanks. I'll hang out a couple of days to see what other inputs I get on it too. -- Chris Tillman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:41:59PM -0700, Chris Tillman wrote: > >> > >> nano-tiny -T15 -v /help.txt > > > > why not zcat /help.gz | more ? > > That would work, but I used tabs to make two columns; using the editor lets > me choose how much space for a tab so it's more readable and also gives the > novice an interface to use to search for keywords, and scroll back and > forth. you can format it without depending on specific editor features. and i thought more could scroll backwords, at least some implementations can. it just uses control keys and not the arrows iirc (this was back in my Digital Unix days). > > we could save space using the above command. reading files in editors > > is bad practice. > > > Isn't it all compressed by the time it gets into root.bin? not the point, we don't have much room on the filesystem itself, the larger the filesystem gets the larger the disk image gets. when i first started hacking boot-floppies the pmac root disk was larger then 1.44MB compressed, so the disk image was trunicated and thus useless. i had to remove ybin and yaboot to make it all fit again. (i modified ybin so it can be run from the target system). please send a updated version of your help doc formatted to work with more and i can apply it. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Installer online help
> That is a good point. The suggestion of dynmically using the busybox help > probably doesn't treat transloations very well, unless busybox wants translated > help. > > -David I played around with the dynamic thing a little bit, it probably wouldn't work out well in any case. As far as duplicated effort goes, it's probably not too likely this file would change much over time anyhow, just very general top level descriptions of what are mostly very basic commands, and the command set is not likely to vary much either. I definitely think if we do it, it should also be translated. -- Chris Tillman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
That is a good point. The suggestion of dynmically using the busybox help probably doesn't treat transloations very well, unless busybox wants translated help. -David Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 02:16:48AM +0200 wrote: > Would it be an English-only file ?? > > Or is there a way of integrating it in boot-floppies/documentation tree so all > translators can localize it ? > > > On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:15:16PM -0700, Chris Tillman wrote: > > The online help for the installation system is of course quite limited due > > to space limitations. However, the help that is available isn't really > > enough for new users who are just being exposed to *nix for the first time. > > We can't take on the job of *nix education within the installer, but I think > > a few k would really be a good investment for new users. I'm willing to > > scrounge a few k from other places if need be... > > > > Let's add a new 'help' command (hard linked to man and info) that just does > > > > nano-tiny -T15 -v /help.txt > > > > My proposed help.txt is attached (it looks best when viewed with the above > > command). It's around 6500 bytes uncompressed. We might be able to leave out > > some of the help lines and trim a few bytes, probably there are some > > commands that new users shouldn't be using anyway. I already left out > > commands that would seem to be useful or safe only within scripts. OTOH > > maybe having a syntax prompt is helpful even for experienced people, for > > infrequently-used system setup commands. This file was compiled from the > > commands available in the powerpc installer system, probably there are a few > > others needed for i386 etc. > > > > The busybox commands do have a one-line response for --help already, but > > often times that one line is less than helpful - try cp, mount, and umount > > for example. It would make more sense to dispense with those, or collect any > > really valuable information together into one place people can quickly > > browse thru or search. > > > > -- > > > > Chris Tillman > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > Eric VAN BUGGENHAUT > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
Would it be an English-only file ?? Or is there a way of integrating it in boot-floppies/documentation tree so all translators can localize it ? On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:15:16PM -0700, Chris Tillman wrote: > The online help for the installation system is of course quite limited due > to space limitations. However, the help that is available isn't really > enough for new users who are just being exposed to *nix for the first time. > We can't take on the job of *nix education within the installer, but I think > a few k would really be a good investment for new users. I'm willing to > scrounge a few k from other places if need be... > > Let's add a new 'help' command (hard linked to man and info) that just does > > nano-tiny -T15 -v /help.txt > > My proposed help.txt is attached (it looks best when viewed with the above > command). It's around 6500 bytes uncompressed. We might be able to leave out > some of the help lines and trim a few bytes, probably there are some > commands that new users shouldn't be using anyway. I already left out > commands that would seem to be useful or safe only within scripts. OTOH > maybe having a syntax prompt is helpful even for experienced people, for > infrequently-used system setup commands. This file was compiled from the > commands available in the powerpc installer system, probably there are a few > others needed for i386 etc. > > The busybox commands do have a one-line response for --help already, but > often times that one line is less than helpful - try cp, mount, and umount > for example. It would make more sense to dispense with those, or collect any > really valuable information together into one place people can quickly > browse thru or search. > > -- > > Chris Tillman > [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Eric VAN BUGGENHAUT [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
> > FWIW busybox does have better help if you turn it on : > bb with very little help: > -rwxr-xr-x root/root180316 2001-06-10 14:22:28 ./bin/busybox > > bb with better help: > -rwxr-xr-x root/root195804 2001-06-10 14:29:32 ./bin/busybox > > That is more space than what you are proposing, but it does involve a bit of > duplication of effort and maintenance. I don't feel strongly either way. New users feel completely lost; even if the information is right there, they don't know how to get at it. "Which command do I try first? They all look equivalently evil and potentially dangerous." If a script was used to extract the info out of --help for all these commands into one file during the build, and then the result concatenated to a static file intro, that might work. Then if you turn off the --help for busybox, after extracting the info but before building, there's no duplication of effort or space. I've got a feeling that's a trivial script for you guys, but I wouldn't know where to start. Something with a sed and a couple of greps thrown in. BTW, I think some options advertised as being functional in bb --help are not really; if we go down that route I could help clean that up. >> chroot make the root directory something other than / on >> the file system; "chroot " > I don't think that's right: > meow:bin$ chroot --help > Usage: chroot NEWROOT [COMMAND...] > I must have gotten that info from another distribution #-/ -- Chris Tillman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
>> >> nano-tiny -T15 -v /help.txt > > why not zcat /help.gz | more ? That would work, but I used tabs to make two columns; using the editor lets me choose how much space for a tab so it's more readable and also gives the novice an interface to use to search for keywords, and scroll back and forth. > we could save space using the above command. reading files in editors > is bad practice. > Isn't it all compressed by the time it gets into root.bin? >> mkofboot initialize an Apple_Bootstrap HFS partition and >> transfer the configured yaboot bootloader to it > > don't call this an HFS partition, its not. when you call it that > people expect they should be mounting it, putting macos on it, and all > sorts of other evil things. OK -- Chris Tillman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installer online help
On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:15:16PM -0700, Chris Tillman wrote: > The online help for the installation system is of course quite limited due > to space limitations. However, the help that is available isn't really > enough for new users who are just being exposed to *nix for the first time. > We can't take on the job of *nix education within the installer, but I think > a few k would really be a good investment for new users. I'm willing to > scrounge a few k from other places if need be... > > Let's add a new 'help' command (hard linked to man and info) that just does > > nano-tiny -T15 -v /help.txt why not zcat /help.gz | more ? > My proposed help.txt is attached (it looks best when viewed with the above > command). It's around 6500 bytes uncompressed. We might be able to leave out > some of the help lines and trim a few bytes, probably there are some > commands that new users shouldn't be using anyway. I already left out > commands that would seem to be useful or safe only within scripts. OTOH > maybe having a syntax prompt is helpful even for experienced people, for > infrequently-used system setup commands. This file was compiled from the > commands available in the powerpc installer system, probably there are a few > others needed for i386 etc. we could save space using the above command. reading files in editors is bad practice. > mkofboot initialize an Apple_Bootstrap HFS partition and > transfer the configured yaboot bootloader to it don't call this an HFS partition, its not. when you call it that people expect they should be mounting it, putting macos on it, and all sorts of other evil things. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ PGP signature
Re: Installer online help
> We can't take on the job of *nix education within the installer, but I think > a few k would really be a good investment for new users. I'm willing to > scrounge a few k from other places if need be... I like this idea. > > Let's add a new 'help' command (hard linked to man and info) that just does > > nano-tiny -T15 -v /help.txt > > command). It's around 6500 bytes uncompressed. We might be able to leave out > The busybox commands do have a one-line response for --help already, but > often times that one line is less than helpful - try cp, mount, and umount FWIW busybox does have better help if you turn it on : bb with very little help: -rwxr-xr-x root/root180316 2001-06-10 14:22:28 ./bin/busybox bb with better help: -rwxr-xr-x root/root195804 2001-06-10 14:29:32 ./bin/busybox That is more space than what you are proposing, but it does involve a bit of duplication of effort and maintenance. I don't feel strongly either way. > > chrootmake the root directory something other than / on > the file system; "chroot " I don't think that's right: meow:bin$ chroot --help Usage: chroot NEWROOT [COMMAND...] -David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
