Re: Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
> Well, I'm unfortunately pretty sure that whatever solution we find to
> this, some people will still think this is not acceptable as long as
> the solution does not implement their own solution.
I'd think so.
Is this passible iso-codes package offer a "short name" for the country code?
I mean, the name of "TW" is "Taiwan, Province of China",
But the short name of "TW" is "Taiwan".
In Debian-Installer, it always shows the "short name".
And what the "short name" should be depends on each translator's preference.
And, How about the "icu-data" package?
(Please vist http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2004/debian-boot-200404/msg00520.html)
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Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Quoting Tetralet ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > > As long as this iso-3166 translation in zh_TW is incomplete, > > you will be presented with the English name list... > > which you don't like, when choosing zh_TW. > > > > So, go ahead and finish the zh_TW translation of iso_3166. > > I'm very willing to do it. Well, as you may have read, this won't stop the problem as the short list is still untanslated. We need one good perl/shell/whatever wizard who finds a solution for translating the built-on-the-fly short list > > For sure, > > people using English will still see the name you don't like. > > Some, probably of Chinese (or probably Taiwanese) origin, > > will probably even complain about this. > > We will point them to > > http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/10faq/frequently-asked-questions.html#QS03. > > That's the problem. > Maybe we are too self-will, > But some of us still think that it is not acceptable. Well, I'm unfortunately pretty sure that whatever solution we find to this, some people will still think this is not acceptable as long as the solution does not implement their own solution. For those people who think that this wil remain unacceptable and insist on replacing the current name, I will politely ask them to also propose a new names for FYROM, "Palestinian territory, occupied", "Lybian Arab Jimahiriya".of course, the solution has to be accepted by all involved parties The National Geographic Atlas has unfortunately less legitimity than ISO in my eyes for defining international standards. NGA is a USA organisation with, from my point of view, a quite oriented way of approaching things (should I mention the censorship stories which happened in their publications). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Joey Hess wrote: > I suggest that anyone who has an idea on the matter, tell it to > Christian and Alastair. Well, I did suggest buying a National Geographic Atlas and using the names on that. I also suggested using the long names for *everywhere*. -- Make sure your vote will count. http://www.verifiedvoting.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
> As long as this iso-3166 translation in zh_TW is incomplete,
> you will be presented with the English name list...
> which you don't like, when choosing zh_TW.
>
> So, go ahead and finish the zh_TW translation of iso_3166.
I'm very willing to do it.
But...
> For sure,
> people using English will still see the name you don't like.
> Some, probably of Chinese (or probably Taiwanese) origin,
> will probably even complain about this.
> We will point them to
> http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/10faq/frequently-asked-questions.html#QS03.
That's the problem.
Maybe we are too self-will,
But some of us still think that it is not acceptable.
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Re: More facts about the TW issue (was: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?)
--- Christian Perrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Indeed, I found yesterday that the iso-3166 list and > FAQ gives incorrect reasons for giving TW this controversial name. it is correct. > > They mention that the name comes from the UN list of > "country, regions > and other areas for statistical use". They even > point to the UN web > site for this listwhere neither "Taiwan" nor > "Taiwan, province of > China" are listed! As said in the ISO 3166 FAQ, the source is the following _two_, not just the second yo u mentioned. * United Nations Terminology Bulletin Country Names or * Country and Region Codes for Statistical Use of the UN Statistics Division It is a formal standard and seems won't have that kind of bug. > > It indeed looks like ISO-3166 is a bit late after > UN. The UN list > probably included "TW=Taiwan, province of China" in > the past. However, > they currently DO NOT HAVE TW at all (probably a > side effect of Taiwan > not being anymore a member of UN since 1971). > > This point needs more investigation : if the > reference ISO-3166 > maintenance agency used is wrong, then the standard > should change. I > will try to find more information about a possible > future change > (which we could then anticipate). > > > > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More facts about the TW issue (was: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?)
Quoting Denis Barbier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > Please have a look at KDE (run kcontrol, select 'Regional & accessibility', > then 'Country/Region & Language'), they use real short names: Macedonia > and Taiwan in these particular cases. > Their list looks much smarter than the UN one. Well, "smarter" is a matter of perception, probably. The basic problem should be : "why KDE did choose these names instead of the only internationnally recognised (bad) ones". I *also* feel that "Taiwan" and "Macedonia" look more "natural". But I also feel I have any right at all for changing this if the only internationnalyrecognised standard use them Indeed, I found yesterday that the iso-3166 list and FAQ gives incorrect reasons for giving TW this controversial name. They mention that the name comes from the UN list of "country, regions and other areas for statistical use". They even point to the UN web site for this listwhere neither "Taiwan" nor "Taiwan, province of China" are listed! It indeed looks like ISO-3166 is a bit late after UN. The UN list probably included "TW=Taiwan, province of China" in the past. However, they currently DO NOT HAVE TW at all (probably a side effect of Taiwan not being anymore a member of UN since 1971). This point needs more investigation : if the reference ISO-3166 maintenance agency used is wrong, then the standard should change. I will try to find more information about a possible future change (which we could then anticipate). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On 3.IV.2004 at 03:24 Tetralet wrote: > > If somebody goes through the trouble of creating a KDE website,then > we will include it in this list. Furthermore, we will /not/ > override the site creator's preference for what to call their > geographical area (e.g., calling the Taiwan site "Taiwan" instead of > "China")." I guess for KDE it is more important to attract more developers than to conform with ISO. :-) Anton Zinoviev -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Herbert Xu wrote: > Tetralet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > People who install Debian via debian-installer will find that "Taiwan" > > was replaced with "Taiwan, Province of China". > > They may not detect immediately that this country code is based on ISO-3166, > > But they will think that Debian is discriminating against Taiwan people. > > It will not be a very good first impression to Debian users. > > > > And, It is a gross disparagement to Taiwan people. > > Thus some of us may refuse to use Debian anymore. > > Who cares? It'd be much better if you didn't use Debian at all. It's been pointed out to me, that a newcomer to this mailing list might get the impression that Herbert Xu's statement above is representative of the opinions or policies of the Debian Installer team. I want to make clear that it is not. Specifically, we support Taiwanese users of Debian and the Debian Installer, and we appreciate the work Tetralet is doing on translating the installer to the zh_TW locale. Christian Perrier, Alastair McKinstry, and others have been working to find ways to make the way countrychooser presents countries acceptable to everyone. It's delicate work, they've been doing a good job, and I think we should give them a chance to succeed in that before considering any other solutions. I suggest that anyone who has an idea on the matter, tell it to Christian and Alastair. A large discussion/flamewar, as seems to be brewing on several Debian mailing lists, is unlikely to help resolve the situation, and will only destract many of us from getting the next beta of the installer ready by the end of this month. If we still have a problem in a couple of weeks, then perhaps we'll have to decide it's unresolvable, and throw out the idea of the installer prompting for countries in its current form. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 05:57:54AM -0700, Anthony Johnson wrote: > You should go back to China mainland and ask for > people there. IIRC, you are NOT located in China > mainland, right? But, I still watch the same CCTV and read the same Chinese newspapers. NO differences. > BTW: Do not compare windoze xp with Debian, windoze > won't let people like you complain on an open > development mailing list again and again. Why not, You can't complain to them on the list, but you can do in telephone or face to face. That's more powerful. If Chinese government don't like the phrase, or most people really hate it, they must do some changes, right? Actually, NO ONE complained it in any methods. If we must use "Taiwan POC" here, PLEASE rename "China" to "PR China", and "HongKong" to "HongKong SAR" simultaneously, especially the second one. -- Best Regards, Carlos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 08:51:25PM +0300, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote: > On Sunday 04 April 2004 10:38, Alastair McKinstry wrote: > > Agreed the "official short names" are ugly ; > > (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code > >-lists/list-en1.html) eg. "LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC", > > "LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYA" for those countries normally called "Laos" > > and "Libya". However, sometimes the short version is the problem > > too: eg. do we allow > > "MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF", to be shortened to > > "Macedonia"? I'm sure the Greeks won't agree to that ... > > they certainly won't (and I'm not speaking about myself, I believe > that this issue has been greatly mishandled by all sides anyway)... Please have a look at KDE (run kcontrol, select 'Regional & accessibility', then 'Country/Region & Language'), they use real short names: Macedonia and Taiwan in these particular cases. Their list looks much smarter than the UN one. This does not mean that iso-codes is useless, it may contain more informations (like real short country/region names) and developers could ddecide which list to use depending on their context. Denis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Quoting Herbert Xu ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > > And, It is a gross disparagement to Taiwan people. > > Thus some of us may refuse to use Debian anymore. > > Who cares? It'd be much better if you didn't use Debian at all. I don't think that flaming Tetralet is a big progress in this thread. Though we have some disagreement here, I know we owe him and other fellow Traditional Chinese translators a huge good work. He bringed the topic really politely and with good arguments and until then discussed it peacefully. Disagreements and disputes are part of this work. That one is a very sensitive one, but I think people here are grown up enough for keeping exchanging ideas instead of insults. Thanks for cooling down the boiler..:-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sunday 04 April 2004 16:06, Nathanael Nerode wrote: > Well, it's only particularly crazy Greek governments which care; > most Greeks accept that Macedonia (the country) is *not* making > territorial claims on Greece Macedonia, and there are lots of other > situations in the world where a country has the same name as a > province in a neighboring country. Although you are right in that most Greeks don't really care any more, unfortunately you represent a gross simplification of the issue. It's not just about territorial claims (that issue has been dropped thankfully). I sincerely do not want to enter such a debate here, it is totally OT and I want to respect the focus of the list. But still, I can hardly disagree with you about the fact that it's because of the mishandling of the Greek goverments that there actually *exists* such an issue. > So I wouldn't worry, as long as this is a list of *countries*, > anyway, since there's no other *country* called Macedonia (given > that Greece admits that Greek Macedonia is part of Greece). It's > not like the situation with the Congo, where there actually are two > countries with the same standard name, or the similar situation > which used to be true of Yemen, or further back Cameroon, etc. actually there was never doubt about the Greek part of Macedonia, not from the Greek side, that is :-) Anyway, I would really like to drop the issue here, because I feel bad discussing it... not least because I fear that we have ourselves messed things up and now it's too late to fix them, and if we did it would be at the expense of another country (and a neighbouring country which it is in our interest and benefit to have good relations with). Konstantinos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sunday 04 April 2004 10:38, Alastair McKinstry wrote: > Agreed the "official short names" are ugly ; > (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code >-lists/list-en1.html) eg. "LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC", > "LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYA" for those countries normally called "Laos" > and "Libya". However, sometimes the short version is the problem > too: eg. do we allow > "MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF", to be shortened to > "Macedonia"? I'm sure the Greeks won't agree to that ... they certainly won't (and I'm not speaking about myself, I believe that this issue has been greatly mishandled by all sides anyway)... Although I think Taiwan's is a different case... Konstantinos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Christian Perrier wrote: > -Alastair and I recently updated the list to the most recent official > list of english and french names for "countries, regions are areas of > specific geopolitical interest"...exact wording of ISO-3166 list I love the phrase "of specific geopolitical interest". Yeech. Allows them to include or exclude things regardless of the formalities, which is probably good. -- Make sure your vote will count. http://www.verifiedvoting.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Nathanael Nerode wrote: > So I wouldn't worry, as long as this is a list of *countries*, anyway, > since there's no other *country* called Macedonia (given that Greece Of course, as I said elsewhere, Taiwan can't be in a "country" list, so you can't deal with both at once. ;-) Oh well. > Well, maybe it would be better to go with a different, less political, > more neutral list, like the names used on the National Geographic Society > maps, > for instance. :-O Going with the names used on maps would also guarantee > the selection of genuinely short names, since mapmakers have physical > problems putting overly-long names on their maps, and so won't do it. > But overall, I couldn't care less what names are used, so pay no attention to me. Though I have concluded that using countries for locale selection is not really a good idea at all, in the long run; the only locale element that is strictly country based is the currency, and sometimes not even that. Unfortunately I don't have a better alternative. :-P -- Make sure your vote will count. http://www.verifiedvoting.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Anthony Johnson wrote: > > --- "Carlos Z.F. Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 05:48:43PM -0800, Anthony >> Johnson wrote: >> > No, some of you did, but more don't(especially >> people >> > in China mainland), AFAIK. >> As a chinese, I think most people in mainland won't >> mind using "Taiwan" > I am also Chinese(please do not use 'chinese') > I don't think so. Many people do mind here. >> here. Even in many governmental newspapers, they >> also use "Taiwan" > This is just short name, not as the same case in d-i. Um, the point was to use a "short name" in d-i. Explain why this is not the same case? -- Make sure your vote will count. http://www.verifiedvoting.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Herbert Xu wrote: > Carlos Z.F. Liu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 05:48:43PM -0800, Anthony Johnson wrote: >>> No, some of you did, but more don't(especially people >>> in China mainland), AFAIK. >> As a chinese, I think most people in mainland won't mind using "Taiwan" >> here. Even in many governmental newspapers, they also use "Taiwan" >> directly sometimes. > > In the context of choosing the name of a country, you'll find that most > of the mainland popluation are willing to go to war on this. Large portions of the Taiwanese population are stringently against it *as well*, including the official position of the government. Of course it's not a "country name". -- Make sure your vote will count. http://www.verifiedvoting.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
--- "Carlos Z.F. Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So, you should kick CCTV and communist party's ass, > before you speak > here. IIRC, They alway said Chen Shui-Bian as You should go back to China mainland and ask for people there. IIRC, you are NOT located in China mainland, right? BTW: Do not compare windoze xp with Debian, windoze won't let people like you complain on an open development mailing list again and again. > Taiwan's leader, not > "Taiwan province's leader". They said that Taiwan is > a part of China, > but never use "Taiwan province is a part of China". > > -- > Best Regards, > Carlos > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Herbert Xu wrote: > Carlos Z.F. Liu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 05:48:43PM -0800, Anthony Johnson wrote: >>> No, some of you did, but more don't(especially people >>> in China mainland), AFAIK. >> As a chinese, I think most people in mainland won't mind using "Taiwan" >> here. Even in many governmental newspapers, they also use "Taiwan" >> directly sometimes. > > In the context of choosing the name of a country, you'll find that most > of the mainland popluation are willing to go to war on this. China (mainland) China (Taiwan) -- Make sure your vote will count. http://www.verifiedvoting.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Alastair McKinstry wrote: > DÃ Domh, 2004-04-04 ag 02:53 +0200, scrÃobh Frans Pop: > >> I really think that using the 'really' short names (that is just plain >> Taiwan instead of Taiwan, P.. of C..) would not be a bad compromise >> despite what the official so called short UN names say. And note that it *is* a compromise, since the offical Taiwanese government version would be short name "China", long name "Republic of China", with the mainland government being "People's Republic of China". > Agreed the "official short names" are ugly ; > (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/list-en1.html) > eg. "LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC", "LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYA" for > those countries normally called "Laos" and "Libya". Yeah, they are incredibly ugly, aren't they. Heck; grab a National Geographic Society atlas and see what the political names used on the map are. Then use those. It's a better standard, at least for countries which actually exist (doesn't the UN still recognize some which don't?) Of course, you could always use the official long names for everyone, thus abusing nearly everyone with stupid names. ;-) The benefit of the "short" names is always lost when some of them are stupidly long. > However, sometimes > the short version is the problem too: eg. do we allow > "MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF", to be shortened to > "Macedonia"? I'm sure the Greeks won't agree to that ... Well, it's only particularly crazy Greek governments which care; most Greeks accept that Macedonia (the country) is *not* making territorial claims on Greece Macedonia, and there are lots of other situations in the world where a country has the same name as a province in a neighboring country. So I wouldn't worry, as long as this is a list of *countries*, anyway, since there's no other *country* called Macedonia (given that Greece admits that Greek Macedonia is part of Greece). It's not like the situation with the Congo, where there actually are two countries with the same standard name, or the similar situation which used to be true of Yemen, or further back Cameroon, etc. >> After all, isn't Linux for a large part about being "free" as in "able to >> choose for yourselves" which is what Taiwan has been trying to to for the >> past decades. > > Ironically, one of the main reasons I created the iso-codes package is > to allow this; if someone wanted to create "Kurdish Linux" and add > Kurdistan as a territory, then they would only have 1 list to override > or correct on Linux, rather than n separate lists of countries and > translations ... > (But I don't want to fork Debian over this issue :-( ) > > >> I think the really short names are often a lot more politically neutral >> than the semi-official names in iso-3166. > > The countries in question have used the list to make their own political > points; but the problem is that Debian deciding to change some names and > not others is no longer being neutral. Well, maybe it would be better to go with a different, less political, more neutral list, like the names used on the National Geographic Society maps, for instance. :-O Going with the names used on maps would also guarantee the selection of genuinely short names, since mapmakers have physical problems putting overly-long names on their maps, and so won't do it. -- Make sure your vote will count. http://www.verifiedvoting.org/
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 06:24:02PM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote: > Carlos Z.F. Liu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 05:48:43PM -0800, Anthony Johnson wrote: > >> No, some of you did, but more don't(especially people > >> in China mainland), AFAIK. > > As a chinese, I think most people in mainland won't mind using "Taiwan" > > here. Even in many governmental newspapers, they also use "Taiwan" > > directly sometimes. > > In the context of choosing the name of a country, you'll find that most > of the mainland popluation are willing to go to war on this. Yes, I knew that. I just look at a Windows XP machine, MS use "location" instead of "Country, territory and area" as the label, and use "Taiwan" in the list. NO ONE complain about it. -- Best Regards, Carlos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 08:27:38AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: > Hmmm, yes, that is indeed right. We never found a way to solve this as > the short list is built on the fly. > > But, there is AFAIK no bug report about this.or if there is one, > it is not assigned to countrychooser. > > Someone should report one, just for the record. OK, I reported it, just for the record. Thanks. -- Best Regards, Carlos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 11:27:05PM -0800, Anthony Johnson wrote: > > --- "Carlos Z.F. Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 05:48:43PM -0800, Anthony > > Johnson wrote: > > > No, some of you did, but more don't(especially > > people > > > in China mainland), AFAIK. > > As a chinese, I think most people in mainland won't > > mind using "Taiwan" > I am also Chinese(please do not use 'chinese') > I don't think so. Many people do mind here. So, you should kick CCTV and communist party's ass, before you speak here. IIRC, They alway said Chen Shui-Bian as Taiwan's leader, not "Taiwan province's leader". They said that Taiwan is a part of China, but never use "Taiwan province is a part of China". -- Best Regards, Carlos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Tetralet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> We, the debian users in Taiwan, Hongkong and mainland China, have
> discussed about this for several days.
> You may visit http://moto.debian.org.tw/viewtopic.php?t=3192 for more
> details.
Yeah right, all I see is a bunch Taiwanese separatists. I'm sure
you'll find a totally different result if you tried this on a mainland
website.
> People who install Debian via debian-installer will find that "Taiwan"
> was replaced with "Taiwan, Province of China".
> They may not detect immediately that this country code is based on ISO-3166,
> But they will think that Debian is discriminating against Taiwan people.
> It will not be a very good first impression to Debian users.
>
> And, It is a gross disparagement to Taiwan people.
> Thus some of us may refuse to use Debian anymore.
Who cares? It'd be much better if you didn't use Debian at all.
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Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Carlos Z.F. Liu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 05:48:43PM -0800, Anthony Johnson wrote:
>> No, some of you did, but more don't(especially people
>> in China mainland), AFAIK.
> As a chinese, I think most people in mainland won't mind using "Taiwan"
> here. Even in many governmental newspapers, they also use "Taiwan"
> directly sometimes.
In the context of choosing the name of a country, you'll find that most
of the mainland popluation are willing to go to war on this.
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Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Alastair McKinstry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Agreed the "official short names" are ugly ;
> (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/list-en1.html)
> eg. "LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC", "LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYA" for
> those countries normally called "Laos" and "Libya". However, sometimes
> the short version is the problem too: eg. do we allow
> "MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF", to be shortened to
> "Macedonia"? I'm sure the Greeks won't agree to that ...
Well for the same reason most of thel mainland Chinese people will
disagree with showing just Taiwan instead of the longer version.
In fact, you'll probably get Debian banned by the Chinese government
should they get wind of this fact.
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Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
--- "Carlos Z.F. Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 05:48:43PM -0800, Anthony > Johnson wrote: > > No, some of you did, but more don't(especially > people > > in China mainland), AFAIK. > As a chinese, I think most people in mainland won't > mind using "Taiwan" I am also Chinese(please do not use 'chinese') I don't think so. Many people do mind here. > here. Even in many governmental newspapers, they > also use "Taiwan" This is just short name, not as the same case in d-i. > directly sometimes. > > -- > Best Regards, > Carlos > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Then use the translated iso-codes in countrychooser --- "Carlos Z.F. Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 02:28:49PM -0600, Steve > Langasek wrote: > > Will these users be installing using English or > Traditional Chinese as > > the language? > Unfortunately, even you choose Traditional Chinese > in languagechooser, > you will still get english country/area names in the > next screen. You > can see translated names in full country list only. > It's an old bug > since countrychooser was change to current style. > > -- > Best Regards, > Carlos > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
DÃ Domh, 2004-04-04 ag 02:53 +0200, scrÃobh Frans Pop: > I really think that using the 'really' short names (that is just plain Taiwan > instead of Taiwan, P.. of C..) would not be a bad compromise despite what the > official so called short UN names say. Agreed the "official short names" are ugly ; (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/list-en1.html) eg. "LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC", "LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYA" for those countries normally called "Laos" and "Libya". However, sometimes the short version is the problem too: eg. do we allow "MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF", to be shortened to "Macedonia"? I'm sure the Greeks won't agree to that ... > After all, isn't Linux for a large part about being "free" as in "able to > choose for yourselves" which is what Taiwan has been trying to to for the > past decades. Ironically, one of the main reasons I created the iso-codes package is to allow this; if someone wanted to create "Kurdish Linux" and add Kurdistan as a territory, then they would only have 1 list to override or correct on Linux, rather than n separate lists of countries and translations ... (But I don't want to fork Debian over this issue :-( ) > I think the really short names are often a lot more politically neutral than > the semi-official names in iso-3166. The countries in question have used the list to make their own political points; but the problem is that Debian deciding to change some names and not others is no longer being neutral. > FJP Regards, Alastair -- Alastair McKinstry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GPG Key fingerprint = CD45 260A 4546 C3C0 F595 F0F6 4132 BF90 2A38 5C57 He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. - --Thomas Paine
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Quoting Tetralet ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > You may visit http://moto.debian.org.tw/viewtopic.php?t=3192 for more > details. Provided you read Chinese..:-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Quoting Carlos Z.F. Liu ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > Unfortunately, even you choose Traditional Chinese in languagechooser, > you will still get english country/area names in the next screen. You > can see translated names in full country list only. It's an old bug > since countrychooser was change to current style. Hmmm, yes, that is indeed right. We never found a way to solve this as the short list is built on the fly. But, there is AFAIK no bug report about this.or if there is one, it is not assigned to countrychooser. Someone should report one, just for the record. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 05:48:43PM -0800, Anthony Johnson wrote: > No, some of you did, but more don't(especially people > in China mainland), AFAIK. As a chinese, I think most people in mainland won't mind using "Taiwan" here. Even in many governmental newspapers, they also use "Taiwan" directly sometimes. -- Best Regards, Carlos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 02:53:08AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote: > I really think that using the 'really' short names (that is just plain Taiwan > instead of Taiwan, P.. of C..) would not be a bad compromise despite what the > official so called short UN names say. > After all, isn't Linux for a large part about being "free" as in "able to > choose for yourselves" which is what Taiwan has been trying to to for the > past decades. > I think the really short names are often a lot more politically neutral than > the semi-official names in iso-3166. Especially as 3116 is incredibly > inconsistent. _Short_ names should be _short_. I also prefer the really _short_ name. -- Best Regards, Carlos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sat, Apr 03, 2004 at 02:28:49PM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote: > Will these users be installing using English or Traditional Chinese as > the language? Unfortunately, even you choose Traditional Chinese in languagechooser, you will still get english country/area names in the next screen. You can see translated names in full country list only. It's an old bug since countrychooser was change to current style. -- Best Regards, Carlos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
--- Tetralet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We, the debian users in Taiwan, Hongkong and > mainland China, have > discussed about this for several days. > We all consent that to replace "Taiwan" with > "Taiwan, Province of China" > is not suitable. No, some of you did, but more don't(especially people in China mainland), AFAIK. As already discussed several times here: There is no way to satisfy everybody. Debian should not participate in this kind of arguments. "We have to choose names from some standards body somewhere, and no matter what we do somebody will disagree." -- as Colin has said. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 03 April 2004 22:28, Steve Langasek wrote: > Will these users be installing using English or Traditional Chinese as > the language? The problem is that some users in that area will install in English, especially for servers. I really think that using the 'really' short names (that is just plain Taiwan instead of Taiwan, P.. of C..) would not be a bad compromise despite what the official so called short UN names say. After all, isn't Linux for a large part about being "free" as in "able to choose for yourselves" which is what Taiwan has been trying to to for the past decades. I think the really short names are often a lot more politically neutral than the semi-official names in iso-3166. Especially as 3116 is incredibly inconsistent. _Short_ names should be _short_. FJP -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAb1x0gm/Kwh6ICoQRAmacAJ0WQ7Q7K44lzqj6IYtnvWq4Ys/qTQCfTC+y uZH/32RjGoJWfUF1QBmeChk= =yDZh -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
DÃ Domh, 2004-04-04 ag 04:17 +0800, scrÃobh Tetralet:
> My original question is:
>
> "Must debian-installer use "iso-codes" package when choosing country,
> Even though it will hurt some people, like people who living in Taiwan?"
>
> And I think your answer is "YES".
> People who install Debian via debian-installer will find that "Taiwan"
> was replaced with "Taiwan, Province of China".
> They may not detect immediately that this country code is based on ISO-3166,
> But they will think that Debian is discriminating against Taiwan people.
> It will not be a very good first impression to Debian users.
As has been noted in previous discussions on this subject, it is
basically impossible to draw up a list of countries and their names that
does not insult somebody. For Debian, picking an official list, (and
ISO-3166 is _the_ offfical list) is pretty much the only solution.
Please update the zh_TW entries, as discussed before. D-I is designed
that the first question people see is the Language; if they pick zh_CN
they should _not_see Province_of_China.
Regards,
Alastair
>
> Tetralet
>
>
> ==
> ~2UUA{150U
> http://edm-prg.epaper.com.tw/click.php?ad_code=87098
> ==
> PChome~~ \*^o^*//
> http://love.pchome.com.tw/
> ==
>
>
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Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
On Sun, Apr 04, 2004 at 04:17:05AM +0800, Tetralet wrote: > "Must debian-installer use "iso-codes" package when choosing country, > Even though it will hurt some people, like people who living in Taiwan?" > And I think your answer is "YES". > We, the debian users in Taiwan, Hongkong and mainland China, have > discussed about this for several days. > You may visit http://moto.debian.org.tw/viewtopic.php?t=3192 for more > details. > We all consent that to replace "Taiwan" with "Taiwan, Province of China" > is not suitable. > It don't match to the real political situation, > And it will bring a mountain of political disputes. > People who install Debian via debian-installer will find that "Taiwan" > was replaced with "Taiwan, Province of China". > They may not detect immediately that this country code is based on ISO-3166, > But they will think that Debian is discriminating against Taiwan people. > It will not be a very good first impression to Debian users. Will these users be installing using English or Traditional Chinese as the language? -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
My original question is:
"Must debian-installer use "iso-codes" package when choosing country,
Even though it will hurt some people, like people who living in Taiwan?"
And I think your answer is "YES".
We, the debian users in Taiwan, Hongkong and mainland China, have
discussed about this for several days.
You may visit http://moto.debian.org.tw/viewtopic.php?t=3192 for more
details.
We all consent that to replace "Taiwan" with "Taiwan, Province of China"
is not suitable.
It don't match to the real political situation,
And it will bring a mountain of political disputes.
People who install Debian via debian-installer will find that "Taiwan"
was replaced with "Taiwan, Province of China".
They may not detect immediately that this country code is based on ISO-3166,
But they will think that Debian is discriminating against Taiwan people.
It will not be a very good first impression to Debian users.
And, It is a gross disparagement to Taiwan people.
Thus some of us may refuse to use Debian anymore.
Sorry, but I think it is necessary to repeat again,
I suggest that debian-installer should not use the data form "iso-codes"
package as country code.
We should try to found something else to replace the "iso-codes" package
in debian-installer.
Tetralet
==
¤ëÁ~2¸U¶U§A²{ª÷150¸U
http://edm-prg.epaper.com.tw/click.php?ad_code=87098
==
PChome¥æ¤Í~~©¯ºÖ¤Ñ¤Ñ¦³ \*^o^*//
http://love.pchome.com.tw/
==
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Re: Must debian-installer use iso-codes package when choosing country?
Martin, I try to resume the debate here : -the "country" list in Debian Installer countrychooser is taken from the iso-codes package. -This package uses the official ISO-3166 list : http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/index.html. This package is a work by Alastair McKinstry. -Alastair and I recently updated the list to the most recent official list of english and french names for "countries, regions are areas of specific geopolitical interest"...exact wording of ISO-3166 list -The official *short* name for TW, country often designed as "Taiwan", is "Taiwan, Province of China". Hence the list was updated accordingly. -This raises a concern by the Traditional Chinese translator (Traditional Chinese is used in TW) which feels hurt by this Below is my answer to himmaybe some statement by you, Martin, is needed. Maybe not (the Debian Project Leader is not God, I know...:-))) Quoting Tetralet ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > So, I suggest that debian-installer should not use the data form > "iso-codes" package as country code. Certainly not. I very rarely use strong position and always try to open my mind to everything, but you are currently suggesting that we should use our (Debian Installer) own country list. The aim of the iso-codes packages is first giving to the whole Debian distribution a correct list of "countries, regions" as well as languages and currencies lists. If every package builds its own list, then the iso-codes package becomes useless and I guess neither Alastair, neither myself will be motivated for maintaining the package, which is a huge work. > We should try to found something else to replace the "iso-codes" package > in debian-installer. For building what ? An iso-codes-which-is-OK-for-Taiwan and then after an iso-codes-which-is-OK-for-Macedonia. Immediately after, you will end up with an iso-codes-which-is-OK-for-China and an iso-codes-which-is-OK-for-Greece. If the problem is a problem for d-i, it is also a problem for the whole Debian distribution. I perfectly understand you're not entirely happy with the current name of your country in ISO-3166. I wouldn't too. As already wrote, you're perfectly entitled to change this in the translation you manage as zh_TW is only used in TW (and Singapore, right?). You are the one doing the work, so denying this to you would be abuse. But the reference has to remain the international standard. I know UN are not entirely neutral regarding the TW/CN struggle, and I know that your country feels being abandoned by UN when China was recognised a few years ago. I even share this feeling. My personal feeling is that TW and CN are separated countries which should now learn to live together without dreaming of a reunification which is currently an awakened dream. Fine. But this is a personal feeling which has nothing to do with the work we do in Debian. Debian cannot take position in place of international authorities on a topic which seems impossible to solve since 1949... Currently, the only way we have is using iso-codes. The list building and the translations are already done, so we won't certainly reinvent the wheel. So, as a resume to my current position: 1°: we keep iso-3166 list 2°: I suggest you translate your country name to "Taiwan" in zh_TW.po for iso_3166: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/src/debian/iso-codes/iso_3166> po_stat zh_TW.po 56 translated messages, 65 fuzzy translations, 119 untranslated messages. As long as this iso-3166 translation in zh_TW is incomplete, you will be presented with the English name list...which you don't like, when choosing zh_TW. So, go ahead and finish the zh_TW translation of iso_3166. If you think this is huge work, probably choose an intermediate solution by quickly copy English names for all countries in zh_TW.po when the entry is either fuzzy or untranslatedEXCEPT of course for "Taiwan, Province of China" which you will translate to "Taiwan" of whatever you prefer (I suggest you use the official short name of your country, used by your own country official authorities). Doing so, the people using zh_TW as language in Debian installer, or in Debian, will see the name they want to see in whichever package uses iso-codes as a refence for country names. For sure, people using English will still see the name you don't like. Some, probably of Chinese (or probably Taiwanese) origin, will probably even complain about this. We will point them to http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/10faq/frequently-asked-questions.html#QS03. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
