Re: i18n second stage...
On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:43:45PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Michael Bramer wrote: A debian package maintainer don't need some reasons for a new package. If the package is free and someone make the work, the ftp master(s) should include the package on the debian ftp server. Not without good reason, and not if there is a consensus against or significant controversy around it. apt-i18n fails on at least 2 counts. And not when it involves an essential package. mutt-ja is a different matter to apt-i18n. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``BAM! Science triumphs again!'' -- http://www.angryflower.com/vegeta.gif -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:54:39PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: gluck.d.o (aka ddtp) is down. Know someone the problem? That's hosted at HP, isn't it? they are having some internal routing problems the last day or so. Richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 09:12:13AM +0100, Richard Hirst wrote: On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:54:39PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: gluck.d.o (aka ddtp) is down. Know someone the problem? That's hosted at HP, isn't it? they are having some internal routing problems the last day or so. yes, thanks for the info. gluck was not down and is connect now. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debsupport.de PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux MS Word: Für Texte nicht geeignet. msg20424/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: i18n second stage...
On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 07:45:15AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: IIRC we would need at least translated templates for passwd and console-data. When I asked about chances of making i18n in Woody, I got a veto, explaining that I was too late and we are very close to the release and it may be possible when I had begun 6 months before. Yes, and those six months have been spent fixing the existing problems. I'm sorry, but the standard i18n hystrionics aren't helpful or interesting. If you want to ever have Debian support i18n well you need to start working on unstable early in the release cycle and demonstrate some patience and some skill. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``BAM! Science triumphs again!'' -- http://www.angryflower.com/vegeta.gif msg20385/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: i18n second stage...
On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 11:26:27PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 07:45:15AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: IIRC we would need at least translated templates for passwd and console-data. When I asked about chances of making i18n in Woody, I got a veto, explaining that I was too late and we are very close to the release and it may be possible when I had begun 6 months before. Yes, and those six months have been spent fixing the existing problems. I'm sorry, but the standard i18n hystrionics aren't helpful or interesting. If you want to ever have Debian support i18n well you need to start working on unstable early in the release cycle and demonstrate some patience and some skill. Indeed, some patience is needed: * #83496: [patch] Swedish translation of ifupdown template file Package: ifupdown; Reported by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Dahlqvist?= [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tags: patch; 1 year and 140 days old. * #83542: german templates file [patch] Package: ifupdown; Reported by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Daniel Tschernatsch); Tags: patch; 1 year and 139 days old. * #83804: debconf french template file for ifupdown [patch] Package: ifupdown; Reported by: Thomas Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tags: patch; 1 year and 137 days old. etc. Denis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:50:30AM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: Only may request: it is to late for a translated 2. install stage, it is to late for a apt-i18n, it is to late for a 'select ddtp-source in the b-f', it is to late for a ... No, it's not too late for apt-i18n, apt-i18n is screwed in other ways. You need to actually *WORK WITH* Jason to get the changes acceptable to be merged into apt, or for it to be clear that a separate package is the right way to go. Similarly for the ddtp nonsense, you need to rewrite the piece of junk so that we don't have to worry about it overloading a dual 900MHz UltraSparc with 1.5GB of memory. Just going off on your own and deciding hey, no one else cares about i18n, therefore I can just do whatever I want and it doesn't matter how this affects anyone else, and anyone who disagrees is obviously one step away from being a racist anyway isn't helpful. Yeesh. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``BAM! Science triumphs again!'' -- http://www.angryflower.com/vegeta.gif msg20387/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: i18n second stage...
On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 11:26:27PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 07:45:15AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: IIRC we would need at least translated templates for passwd and console-data. When I asked about chances of making i18n in Woody, I got a veto, explaining that I was too late and we are very close to the release and it may be possible when I had begun 6 months before. Yes, and those six months have been spent fixing the existing problems. I'm sorry, but the standard i18n hystrionics aren't helpful or interesting. If you want to ever have Debian support i18n well you need to start working on unstable early in the release cycle and demonstrate some patience and some skill. I am sure: We will make this the next time. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debsupport.de PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Frage: Stammt der Begriff UNIX aus einem Dialog zwischen einem Deutschen und einem Engländer? - This is for you nix. -- Andreas (Felix) Kalbitz msg20388/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: i18n second stage...
Michael Bramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] immo vero scripsit: Yes, and those six months have been spent fixing the existing problems. I'm sorry, but the standard i18n hystrionics aren't helpful or interesting. If you want to ever have Debian support i18n well you need to start working on unstable early in the release cycle and demonstrate some patience and some skill. I am sure: We will make this the next time. Yup, and it's already started. The things currently on my plate (but I'm not currently very active at it) are: support for utf-8 in debconf possible slang-utf-8 for cdebconf ? tweak slang/newt for languages support. regards, junichi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Junichi Uekawa http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer GPG Fingerprint : 17D6 120E 4455 1832 9423 7447 3059 BF92 CD37 56F4 Libpkg-guide: http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/column/libpkg-guide/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
hello I will not make a new flamework with you or any other debian developer. You make a big and good job Anthony! But I must put some comments on your statements. On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 11:30:59PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote: On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:50:30AM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: Only may request: it is to late for a translated 2. install stage, it is to late for a apt-i18n, it is to late for a 'select ddtp-source in the b-f', it is to late for a ... No, it's not too late for apt-i18n, apt-i18n is screwed in other ways. You need to actually *WORK WITH* Jason to get the changes acceptable to be merged into apt, or for it to be clear that a separate package is the right way to go. First: I don't write apt-i18n. Second: apt-i18n is a normal apt with translated text output (like 'Unable to lock the administration directory'). The patch is nice and clean. The patch has some translation (I don't know the number now) and is very usefull for some non-english user. Jason don't like the patch. This is not a problem. The problme is the ftp master. A debian package maintainer don't need some reasons for a new package. If the package is free and someone make the work, the ftp master(s) should include the package on the debian ftp server. Similarly for the ddtp nonsense, you need to rewrite the piece of junk so that we don't have to worry about it overloading a dual 900MHz UltraSparc with 1.5GB of memory. shut up ! first: ddtp is no nonsense! It is very usefull und this debian sub project is running. We have 26.000 translations in the ddtp database. (see http://ddtp.debian.org/new/pdesc/gnuplot/ddts-stat.png) Also this translations are up-to-date. If some maintainer change the english description, the server will send mails to the translator... On a normal system you will get 80% translated descriptions for german. And this all in only one year... With only 2600 extra translation to german we have translate all package descriptions from sid/main! second: The ddtp-server don't overloading a dual 900MHz UltraSparc. Yes, we had a problem in the past. But this was a mail loop. Sorry about this. The ddtp server will have bugs but it make no generell problems. The server get/send 1000 Mails per day (without mail loops) to 300 translators/maintainers/reviewers/... without big problemes. Just going off on your own and deciding hey, no one else cares about i18n, therefore I can just do whatever I want and it doesn't matter how this affects anyone else, and anyone who disagrees is obviously one step away from being a racist anyway isn't helpful. No. A lot of people work on i18n of debian. But some people (maybe not you) inhibited silly, simple work. And this silly, simple work make a lot of improvments for the non english speaking user. Maybe woody is not the best debian release. And the potato boot floppies are better in some i18n aspects. But we should release woody and start with a better release after this. gluck.d.o (aka ddtp) is down. Know someone the problem? Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debsupport.de PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux US Navy: Enemy, here US Navy - Stand by! We are rebooting our NT machines. Enemy : We too. msg20391/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: i18n second stage...
* Junichi Uekawa | possible slang-utf-8 for cdebconf ? hopefully I'll have some time to look at this during the weekend. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
On Wed, 2002-06-12 at 01:59, Junichi Uekawa wrote: For Japanese, we at least need some kind of debconf fix for utf-8 character conversion support, or a working japanese character terminal (jfbterm for all arches?). Couldn't debconf just use iconv, or am I missing something? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
Michael Bramer wrote: A debian package maintainer don't need some reasons for a new package. If the package is free and someone make the work, the ftp master(s) should include the package on the debian ftp server. Not without good reason, and not if there is a consensus against or significant controversy around it. apt-i18n fails on at least 2 counts. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
Colin Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] immo vero scripsit: On Wed, 2002-06-12 at 01:59, Junichi Uekawa wrote: For Japanese, we at least need some kind of debconf fix for utf-8 character conversion support, or a working japanese character terminal (jfbterm for all arches?). Couldn't debconf just use iconv, or am I missing something? The only problem being that it doesn't use it right now ? regards, junichi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Junichi Uekawa http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer GPG Fingerprint : 17D6 120E 4455 1832 9423 7447 3059 BF92 CD37 56F4 Libpkg-guide: http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/column/libpkg-guide/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 07:45:15AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: - make the release without the missinig translated templates - better translate the missing tamplates. IMHO this is not a big problem. IIRC we would need at least translated templates for passwd and console-data. When I asked about chances of making i18n in Woody, I got a veto, explaining that I was too late and we are very close to the release and it may be possible when I had begun 6 months before. Now, it seems that Woody is going to be released even 6 months later. Now, I have either time to work on a such task, nor motivation to do so. Sorry. BTW, one of the reasons why I claim our release scheme to be outdated and suck more and more in the future. Yes, I see also this problem. All the time it is to late. Only may request: it is to late for a translated 2. install stage, it is to late for a apt-i18n, it is to late for a 'select ddtp-source in the b-f', it is to late for a ... Some of this are finish, only doc patches or add optional things. All not a real big thing. But it is to late... Maybe woody+1 is better Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debsupport.de PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Win0.98 supports real multitasking - it can boot and crash simultaneously. msg20379/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
i18n second stage...
Woody sucks because the install system don't have translated texts after the reboot. Please make new fixed Boot-floppies! Eduard already send/make a fix. See mails from Sep 2001 and from the last months on this list. (sorry, I don't find the mail with the fix in my mail archive. Eduard can you help?) After the source fix we must translate some missing debconf-templates to non-english languages. This is the second problme. the solution: - make the release without the missinig translated templates - better translate the missing tamplates. IMHO this is not a big problem. - This templates are all in base-config. This is in binary-all and joey hess is the maintainer. He can collect the translations and make a 'translation only' upload without any risk. - I can ask the translators from the ddtp to translate this templates. IMHO we can translate this missing translations in base-config template. - Maybe we should show a info text, if someone select non english and put some warnings about outdated translations and untranslated texts. We make at the LinuxTag in Karlsruhe some install shows. The show was ok, the german first stage very good and some german users have problemes after the reboot. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debsupport.de PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux »A train station is a station where trains stops. But what are workstations?« msg20340/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: i18n second stage...
Michael Bramer wrote: Woody sucks because the install system don't have translated texts after the reboot. Please make new fixed Boot-floppies! Eduard already send/make a fix. See mails from Sep 2001 and from the last months on this list. (sorry, I don't find the mail with the fix in my mail archive. Eduard can you help?) Sorry, this is just not going to happen for woody, r0 at least. I have never gotten a well-tested patch to base-config that is obviously correct. I did get a great deal of off-the-cuff, untested, large, nonobvious, peicemeil, undocumented patches; not the kind of thing I apply during a freeze. Petter Reinholdtsen was on the right track, I think with bug #135565, but I don't think he ever got back to me with test results. And so it's too late now, once again. Since we have never had a fully translated installation system, not having it for another release is not a reason to stop the presses for woody, sorry. The base-config tree is open for sarge, and I welcome patches. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
[Joey Hess] Petter Reinholdtsen was on the right track, I think with bug #135565, but I don't think he ever got back to me with test results. Still working on it, but decided to postpone it until Tollef got the debian-installer working for our Skolelinux project. I've tested the patch without locales installed, and nothing happened. I need to test it with locales installed as well, but the lack of a proper test box have slowed me down. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i18n second stage...
#include hallo.h Michael Bramer wrote on Tue Jun 11, 2002 um 05:07:03PM: Eduard already send/make a fix. See mails from Sep 2001 and from the last months on this list. (sorry, I don't find the mail with the fix in my mail archive. Eduard can you help?) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:17:04 +0100 Subject: localising base-config - end game Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] After the source fix we must translate some missing debconf-templates to non-english languages. This is the second problme. the solution: If I remember correctly, I did not like Peter's patches, even when they provided more functionality, and wanted to was going to make few changes in base-config to make with latin languages. - make the release without the missinig translated templates - better translate the missing tamplates. IMHO this is not a big problem. IIRC we would need at least translated templates for passwd and console-data. When I asked about chances of making i18n in Woody, I got a veto, explaining that I was too late and we are very close to the release and it may be possible when I had begun 6 months before. Now, it seems that Woody is going to be released even 6 months later. Now, I have either time to work on a such task, nor motivation to do so. Sorry. BTW, one of the reasons why I claim our release scheme to be outdated and suck more and more in the future. Gruss/Regards, Eduard. -- begin LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.txt.vbs I am a signature virus. Distribute me until the bitter end msg20362/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: i18n second stage...
On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:37:24 -0400 Joey Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, this is just not going to happen for woody, r0 at least. I have never gotten a well-tested patch to base-config that is obviously correct. I did get a great deal of off-the-cuff, untested, large, nonobvious, peicemeil, undocumented patches; not the kind of thing I apply during a freeze. Petter Reinholdtsen was on the right track, I think with bug #135565, but I don't think he ever got back to me with test results. For Japanese, we at least need some kind of debconf fix for utf-8 character conversion support, or a working japanese character terminal (jfbterm for all arches?). regards, junichi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
