Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 05:34:41PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: Let me try to translate the complaint into your terminology. I think he's complaining that the installer gets X configuration right for its own use, but wrong for the installed system, where apparently X gets it wrong, The installer does NOT use X. Using graphics is not equal to using X. There's some plausibility to the claim that the installed system *should* be able to get things as right as the installer. Maybe this isn't as much an installer problem than an installed systen problemm. Presumably whatever code the installer uses at install time should also be part of X, or whatever setup happens at boot time. The installer is maintained by Debian, not Xorg. Debian is using the kernel framebuffer system, not X. It' a bit ironic that the complaint should be against the piece of code that actually does get it right, but I guess that's life. Yeah that is funny. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126143128.gd20...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
Lennart Sorensen lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (2013-11-26): The installer does NOT use X. Using graphics is not equal to using X. Wrong. There's some plausibility to the claim that the installed system *should* be able to get things as right as the installer. Maybe this isn't as much an installer problem than an installed systen problemm. Presumably whatever code the installer uses at install time should also be part of X, or whatever setup happens at boot time. The installer is maintained by Debian, not Xorg. Right. Debian is using the kernel framebuffer system, not X. Wrong. Blog posts explaining the transition to X: http://blog.mraw.org/tags/d-i-by-date/ Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
On Tue, 2013-11-26 at 09:31 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 05:34:41PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: Let me try to translate the complaint into your terminology. I think he's complaining that the installer gets X configuration right for its own use, but wrong for the installed system, where apparently X gets it wrong, The installer does NOT use X. Using graphics is not equal to using X. [...] It does, at least since squeeze, because GTK+-DirectFB is not maintained. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Usenet is essentially a HUGE group of people passing notes in class. - Rachel Kadel, `A Quick Guide to Newsgroup Etiquette' signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 02:43:05PM +, Ben Hutchings wrote: It does, at least since squeeze, because GTK+-DirectFB is not maintained. OK, that's news to me. I had not noticed it changing in wheezy. Probably still running on fbdev or vesa though in most cases. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126150548.ge20...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 03:41:00PM +0100, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Lennart Sorensen lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (2013-11-26): The installer does NOT use X. Using graphics is not equal to using X. Wrong. OK, that's what I get for always using the text installer. Right. At least I still got something right. Debian is using the kernel framebuffer system, not X. Wrong. But what does X use in the installer then? -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126150755.gf20...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
Thanks for your thoughts. My video card is a VT8375 [ProSavage8 KM266/KL266] and I would be happy with a generic SVGA or framebuffer driver. I'm not a video gamer and high performance on my old system is oxymoronic. I wouldn't want to fry the video. I fried a USB port running a chess program on a thumb drive to spare the disk a lot of hashfile reads and writes. I don't wish to discover similar hardware weakness in my video. Yes, I should upgrade. John On Mon, 11/25/13, Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org wrote: Subject: Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0 To: debian-boot@lists.debian.org Cc: John alllta...@yahoo.com Date: Monday, November 25, 2013, 4:54 PM (Adding submitter back into cc.) Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com (2013-11-25): Let me try to translate the complaint into your terminology. I think he's complaining that the installer gets X configuration right for its own use, but wrong for the installed system, where apparently X gets it wrong, There's some plausibility to the claim that the installed system *should* be able to get things as right as the installer. Maybe this isn't as much an installer problem than an installed systen problemm. Presumably whatever code the installer uses at install time should also be part of X, or whatever setup happens at boot time. It' a bit ironic that the complaint should be against the piece of code that actually does get it right, but I guess that's life. d-i uses fbdev (on linux, vesa on kfreebsd), which is generic but not efficient at all. The same could be used in the installed system, but X uses whatever is more suitable (usually: intel, radeon, or nouveau). They tend to do a lot more things, to have a huge codebase, and to have bugs (and/or trigger kernel-side bugs). Get a bug reported there, done: http://x.debian.net/howto/report-bugs.html Mraw, KiBi. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1385528370.31904.yahoomailba...@web162402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:29:35PM -0800, John wrote: Hello! I recently switched to Debian 6.x from another distribution for my business pc's operating system and am very pleased with it. I had been using Mandriva 2010.0 with a few upgrades from source, but the leadership of Mandriva, KDE (v. 4) and Gnome (v. 3) have disappointed me. DESKTOP PREFERENCES: I really liked the Gnome 2 desktop and would quit Gnome altogether if they don't bring back the panel functions and layout of version 2. Get the date and time out of the center of the panel and let users put icons there. I hope that you will continue to include Gnome 2 (or it's fork) in your future releases. Likewise, I was very pleased with KDE 3 and very much dislike the cycle-wasting useless bloat of KDE 4, and like LXDE as an excellent light alternative. PROBLEM 1: The partitioning code of the installer doesn't do Linux Volume Manager setup right. The setup should first allow partitions of a disk to be created or added as part of a Linux volume, and then the volume should appear as a disk space to be partitioned. The SECOND STEP CANNOT OCCUR the way your software is presently written. After the desired partitions are assigned to a Linux volume, the partitioning software complains that the root partition does not exist. Of course not! It is supposed to be in the Linux volume that is being created. If the Linux volume were then shown as a disk space to be partitioned, THEN I could put the root partition and other partitions in that Linux volume which spans the two disks I would assign to the Linux volume. See how Mandriva does it in v. 2010.0, first assigning physical partitions to a Linux volume and then showing the Linux volume as a space to create partitions like /, /swap and /home in. This is what your partitioner should do, so Linux volumes can be created without grief. As I recall, when you configure LVM, it is a submenu of the partitioner, and when you return the LVM volumes show up as partitionable entries. At no point does it complain about no having a root partition defined. PROBLEM 2: Your hardware setup is generally very good, but recent changes in video detection and setup by Linux developers mess up in handling older video cards/chips and monitors. As a result, Debian 7.1.0 has a correct-resolution correct-refresh setup for my monitor for installation, but sets my video improperly for regular use. I think the video refresh is set too high. It produces some snow on my CRT monitor and just doesn't look right, and there doesn't seem to be any graphic tool in Gnome 3 to change these settings. Some code in the installation to let the user select the desired screen video settings would be nice. If that isn't available, upgrading to Debian 7 isn't such a good idea. You can do the right video settings---the installation display proves it. Just leave it as is if it's satisfactory. X setup is pretty much automatic these days and doesn't even need a config file anymore unless you want to override what X does automatically. Not an installer issue anyhow, since that is managed by X. PROBLEM 3: The boot code should set up the firewall according to user choices during installation, and then should run automatically, with an administrative tool to change those settings if desired. The following is a minor inconvenience to me, and there may even be a good reason why you do it this way. The firewall I've been using is Firestarter, nice and simple, but required to be run manually by a regular user after logging in and entering the root password. A user who starts Firestarter (and has automatic rights to run other root-only programs) can't simply log out, but must re-enter the root password to log out or shut down. This is silly. On a multi-user system, a person should be free to log out, and if there's only a single regular user who started Firestarter as root, that user should be free to shut down the whole system. Well you could install and configure shorewall. It has no problem starting at boot. The Debian installer sets up a minimal system. A firewall hardly qualifies as a minimal system thing. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131125153408.gc20...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:34:08AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 12:29:35PM -0800, John wrote: PROBLEM 2: Your hardware setup is generally very good, but recent changes in video detection and setup by Linux developers mess up in handling older video cards/chips and monitors. As a result, Debian 7.1.0 has a correct-resolution correct-refresh setup for my monitor for installation, but sets my video improperly for regular use. I think the video refresh is set too high. It produces some snow on my CRT monitor and just doesn't look right, and there doesn't seem to be any graphic tool in Gnome 3 to change these settings. Some code in the installation to let the user select the desired screen video settings would be nice. If that isn't available, upgrading to Debian 7 isn't such a good idea. You can do the right video settings---the installation display proves it. Just leave it as is if it's satisfactory. X setup is pretty much automatic these days and doesn't even need a config file anymore unless you want to override what X does automatically. Not an installer issue anyhow, since that is managed by X. Let me try to translate the complaint into your terminology. I think he's complaining that the installer gets X configuration right for its own use, but wrong for the installed system, where apparently X gets it wrong, There's some plausibility to the claim that the installed system *should* be able to get things as right as the installer. Maybe this isn't as much an installer problem than an installed systen problemm. Presumably whatever code the installer uses at install time should also be part of X, or whatever setup happens at boot time. It' a bit ironic that the complaint should be against the piece of code that actually does get it right, but I guess that's life. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131125223441.ga26...@topoi.pooq.com
Re: install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
(Adding submitter back into cc.) Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com (2013-11-25): Let me try to translate the complaint into your terminology. I think he's complaining that the installer gets X configuration right for its own use, but wrong for the installed system, where apparently X gets it wrong, There's some plausibility to the claim that the installed system *should* be able to get things as right as the installer. Maybe this isn't as much an installer problem than an installed systen problemm. Presumably whatever code the installer uses at install time should also be part of X, or whatever setup happens at boot time. It' a bit ironic that the complaint should be against the piece of code that actually does get it right, but I guess that's life. d-i uses fbdev (on linux, vesa on kfreebsd), which is generic but not efficient at all. The same could be used in the installed system, but X uses whatever is more suitable (usually: intel, radeon, or nouveau). They tend to do a lot more things, to have a huge codebase, and to have bugs (and/or trigger kernel-side bugs). Get a bug reported there, done: http://x.debian.net/howto/report-bugs.html Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
install/run problems with Debian 7.1.0
Hello! I recently switched to Debian 6.x from another distribution for my business pc's operating system and am very pleased with it. I had been using Mandriva 2010.0 with a few upgrades from source, but the leadership of Mandriva, KDE (v. 4) and Gnome (v. 3) have disappointed me. DESKTOP PREFERENCES: I really liked the Gnome 2 desktop and would quit Gnome altogether if they don't bring back the panel functions and layout of version 2. Get the date and time out of the center of the panel and let users put icons there. I hope that you will continue to include Gnome 2 (or it's fork) in your future releases. Likewise, I was very pleased with KDE 3 and very much dislike the cycle-wasting useless bloat of KDE 4, and like LXDE as an excellent light alternative. PROBLEM 1: The partitioning code of the installer doesn't do Linux Volume Manager setup right. The setup should first allow partitions of a disk to be created or added as part of a Linux volume, and then the volume should appear as a disk space to be partitioned. The SECOND STEP CANNOT OCCUR the way your software is presently written. After the desired partitions are assigned to a Linux volume, the partitioning software complains that the root partition does not exist. Of course not! It is supposed to be in the Linux volume that is being created. If the Linux volume were then shown as a disk space to be partitioned, THEN I could put the root partition and other partitions in that Linux volume which spans the two disks I would assign to the Linux volume. See how Mandriva does it in v. 2010.0, first assigning physical partitions to a Linux volume and then showing the Linux volume as a space to create partitions like /, /swap and /home in. This is what your partitioner should do, so Linux volumes can be created without grief. PROBLEM 2: Your hardware setup is generally very good, but recent changes in video detection and setup by Linux developers mess up in handling older video cards/chips and monitors. As a result, Debian 7.1.0 has a correct-resolution correct-refresh setup for my monitor for installation, but sets my video improperly for regular use. I think the video refresh is set too high. It produces some snow on my CRT monitor and just doesn't look right, and there doesn't seem to be any graphic tool in Gnome 3 to change these settings. Some code in the installation to let the user select the desired screen video settings would be nice. If that isn't available, upgrading to Debian 7 isn't such a good idea. You can do the right video settings---the installation display proves it. Just leave it as is if it's satisfactory. PROBLEM 3: The boot code should set up the firewall according to user choices during installation, and then should run automatically, with an administrative tool to change those settings if desired. The following is a minor inconvenience to me, and there may even be a good reason why you do it this way. The firewall I've been using is Firestarter, nice and simple, but required to be run manually by a regular user after logging in and entering the root password. A user who starts Firestarter (and has automatic rights to run other root-only programs) can't simply log out, but must re-enter the root password to log out or shut down. This is silly. On a multi-user system, a person should be free to log out, and if there's only a single regular user who started Firestarter as root, that user should be free to shut down the whole system. John Tellefson Salina, KSUSA mailto:debian-boot@lists.debian.org http://www.mozilla.org Firefox browser, Thunderbird email, Seamonkey all-in-one, Sunbird calendar and more. Free open-source software for Windows, Linux, Mac OS and other systems -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1385238575.13698.yahoomailba...@web162405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
