Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 10:25:23AM +0900, Atsuhito Kohda wrote: > Hi Julian, > > On Wed, 17 May 2006 07:46:04 +0100, Julian Gilbey wrote: > > > Something like, on first installation, or debconf question "Should > > xdvi/... respect /etc/papersize" with an appropriate file in > > /etc/libpaper.d in such a case: > > Policy claims; > implies that the default version will be part of the package > distribution, and must not be modified by the maintainer scripts > during installation (or at any other time). > > First of all, I'm a bit uncertain if it is possible to do this > without policy violation. But isn't that what debconf is all about? We give the maintainer the option of having the paper size managed by paperconfig; they can take this option or leave it. As you imply, though, we must check whether they have changed anything in the interim before responding to a paperconfig change. Julian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 10:13 +0200, Ralf Stubner wrote: > > The dvipdfm patch does two things. It increases the number of papersizes > known to dvipdfm and it adds support for libpaper. I would vote for > keeping the additional papersizes (maybe even propagating that part > upstream) but removing the direct libpaper suppport. Actually it seems to be more complicated. The dvipdfm adds new known papersizes "a6", "b6", "b5", "b4", "b3", and "b5var". "a6" stands for ISO A6 paper. But the "b*" are not from the ISO series as one might expect but from the JIS series. In (x)dvipdfmx one has aliases "isob5" and "jisb5" etc. plus a *compile time* flag whether "b5" is interpreted as ISO or as JIS. I am not sure if this does not introduce more problems than it solves. cheerio ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 08:36 +0200, Frank Küster wrote: > Julian Gilbey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Under what circumstances are > >> the files in there executed? > > > > When paperconfig is executed. Not when the libpaper1 package is > > installed or upgraded, though (is this a bug?). I guess we have to ask the libpaper maintainers how this is to be used properly. > Don't know. Should we call paperconfig in our postinst? IMO the script placed in /etc/paperconf.d should exit, if paperconfig is not installed. Then it should be possible to call this script during our postinst without depending on libpaper-utils. > >> 'texconfig paper $paper' configures dvipdfm and xdvi, too. So these > >> lines are unnecessary. In addition, there is a debian specific patch in > >> dvipdfm that makes it use libpaper directly. Should we remove that then? > > > > OK. Didn't realise that. > > I think if we try to configure most programs to use libpaper defaults, > it is better to do it consistently. This means dvipdfm should use this > method, too, and we can drop the patch. At least if the resulting > functionality is identical; I cannot judge this. The dvipdfm patch does two things. It increases the number of papersizes known to dvipdfm and it adds support for libpaper. I would vote for keeping the additional papersizes (maybe even propagating that part upstream) but removing the direct libpaper suppport. In addition, I would vote for only supporting "a4" and "letter" via a script in /etc/paperconf.d. This would be a regression for dvipdfm, but to me consistency is very important. cheerio ralf
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Julian Gilbey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Under what circumstances are >> the files in there executed? > > When paperconfig is executed. Not when the libpaper1 package is > installed or upgraded, though (is this a bug?). Don't know. Should we call paperconfig in our postinst? >> 'texconfig paper $paper' configures dvipdfm and xdvi, too. So these >> lines are unnecessary. In addition, there is a debian specific patch in >> dvipdfm that makes it use libpaper directly. Should we remove that then? > > OK. Didn't realise that. I think if we try to configure most programs to use libpaper defaults, it is better to do it consistently. This means dvipdfm should use this method, too, and we can drop the patch. At least if the resulting functionality is identical; I cannot judge this. Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Hi Julian, On Wed, 17 May 2006 07:46:04 +0100, Julian Gilbey wrote: > Something like, on first installation, or debconf question "Should > xdvi/... respect /etc/papersize" with an appropriate file in > /etc/libpaper.d in such a case: Policy claims; implies that the default version will be part of the package distribution, and must not be modified by the maintainer scripts during installation (or at any other time). First of all, I'm a bit uncertain if it is possible to do this without policy violation. Regards,2006-5-18(Thu) -- Debian Developer & Debian JP Developer - much more I18N of Debian Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Department of Math., Univ. of Tokushima -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 10:21:42PM +0200, Ralf Stubner wrote: > On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 07:46 +0100, Julian Gilbey wrote: > > > > Something like, on first installation, or debconf question "Should > > xdvi/... respect /etc/papersize" with an appropriate file in > > /etc/libpaper.d in such a case: > > Nice. When has /etc/libpaper.d been added? Don't know - no mention of it in the changelog, unfortunately. > Under what circumstances are > the files in there executed? When paperconfig is executed. Not when the libpaper1 package is installed or upgraded, though (is this a bug?). > How can one provide feedback to the user? Don't know. > Some comments: > > > paper=`paperconf` > > case "$paper" in > > a4) > > texconfig paper $paper > > texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper > > texconfig xdvi $paper > > ;; > > letter) > > texconfig paper $paper > > texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper > > texconfig xdvi us > > ;; > > 'texconfig paper $paper' configures dvipdfm and xdvi, too. So these > lines are unnecessary. In addition, there is a debian specific patch in > dvipdfm that makes it use libpaper directly. Should we remove that then? OK. Didn't realise that. > > legal|a3) > > texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper > > texconfig xdvi $paper > > ;; > > ledger|tabloid) > > texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper > > ;; > > One could add 'texconfig dvips paper $paper' here. But I am not sure if > it really makes sense to support paper sizes that we cannot configure > for all applications, pdfTeX being the culprit here. I would suggest > staying with 'a4' and 'letter' only. Fair enough. Julian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
> On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 09:05:40AM +0200, Frank K??ster wrote: > > Something like, on first installation, or debconf question "Should > xdvi/... respect /etc/papersize" with an appropriate file in > /etc/libpaper.d in such a case: > > paper=`paperconf` > case "$paper" in > a4) I would say to put this in a script in /usr/sbin/tetex-configure-paper and run it at configure time. Then the sysadmin can rerun it whenever /etc/papersize changes. Or I suppose you could just leave it in the configure script and document that the sysadmin should run dpkg-reconfigure whenever the paper size changes. -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 07:46 +0100, Julian Gilbey wrote: > > Something like, on first installation, or debconf question "Should > xdvi/... respect /etc/papersize" with an appropriate file in > /etc/libpaper.d in such a case: Nice. When has /etc/libpaper.d been added? Under what circumstances are the files in there executed? How can one provide feedback to the user? Some comments: > paper=`paperconf` > case "$paper" in > a4) > texconfig paper $paper > texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper > texconfig xdvi $paper > ;; > letter) > texconfig paper $paper > texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper > texconfig xdvi us > ;; 'texconfig paper $paper' configures dvipdfm and xdvi, too. So these lines are unnecessary. In addition, there is a debian specific patch in dvipdfm that makes it use libpaper directly. Should we remove that then? > legal|a3) > texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper > texconfig xdvi $paper > ;; > ledger|tabloid) > texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper > ;; One could add 'texconfig dvips paper $paper' here. But I am not sure if it really makes sense to support paper sizes that we cannot configure for all applications, pdfTeX being the culprit here. I would suggest staying with 'a4' and 'letter' only. cheerio ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 07:37 +0100, Julian Gilbey wrote:
> On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 11:55:53AM +0900, Atsuhito Kohda wrote:
> >
> > Hmm, really? I don't understand what you want really but
> > \usepackage[dvips]{geometry}
> > wouldn't help you?
>
> Or even just \usepackage{geometry}
Only if you have set up you geometry.cfg to set the dvips (or dvipdfm)
option. When DVI is produced, it is not clear what DVI driver will later
be used and geometry does not define a default. However, it is safe to
set dvips/dvipdfm, since these options will be ignored, when pdfTeX (or
VTeX for that matter) is detected. A bit unusual ...
cheerio
ralf
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Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 12:52:03PM -0400, Greg Stark wrote: > > > On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 09:05:40AM +0200, Frank K??ster wrote: > > > > Something like, on first installation, or debconf question "Should > > xdvi/... respect /etc/papersize" with an appropriate file in > > /etc/libpaper.d in such a case: > > > > paper=`paperconf` > > case "$paper" in > > a4) > > I would say to put this in a script in /usr/sbin/tetex-configure-paper and run > it at configure time. Then the sysadmin can rerun it whenever /etc/papersize > changes. > > Or I suppose you could just leave it in the configure script and document that > the sysadmin should run dpkg-reconfigure whenever the paper size changes. See paperconfig(8). Julian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: [SPAM?]: Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Frank Küster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > Sure you can, in fact you already do have such a thing. It's not an error >> > not >> > to specify margin sizes in your document, there is a default specified in >> > the >> > class files. If the sysadmin felt like it he could go and edit those >> > defaults. >> >> No he cannot - the license forbids this. If he wants to change a >> standard class to produce a different layout, he has to rename it [1]. >> And there's a reason for that. > > Only if he wants to redistribute it. Or do you claim that copyright law > reserves the right to make private modifications that nobody ever sees? That > would be unenforceable even if it were true (and I don't believe it's true in > any jurisdiction). You are right: License-wise you may change them without distributing them. However, one should still never do that, and I'm not willing to accept such a possibility as a reason for a packaging decision. It would be insane: If you ask anybody for help, and after a while he finds out you've locally modified the base classes, he'll never help you again. Remember that you may not send him the files (that would be distribution), he has to find out by looking at your debugging output. Even giving him an account on your machine for testing may be distribution, the wording of the LPPL is a bit unclear. Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 11:55:53AM +0900, Atsuhito Kohda wrote:
> > I'll note that even after this entire discussion, reading FAQs
> > and bug reports
> > for days, I still don't know how to do that.
>
> Hmm, really? I don't understand what you want really but
> \usepackage[dvips]{geometry}
> wouldn't help you?
Or even just \usepackage{geometry}
Julian
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Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've an impression that this thread comes to a state of > "waste of time" now, contrary to my intention. Oh, I remember the suggestions for better documentation, and I'll see that someone writes them up sooner or later... Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 09:05:40AM +0200, Frank K??ster wrote: > However, I'm not completely opposed to respecting /etc/papersize. I > just don't think it's important or at least a really good idea. > Therefore I'm not going to try to come up with a proposal how it should > work exactly, let alone an implementation. But, as I think I've already > said earlier in this or one of the merged bugs: If anybody provides a > working patch, I'm willing to give it a try. Something like, on first installation, or debconf question "Should xdvi/... respect /etc/papersize" with an appropriate file in /etc/libpaper.d in such a case: paper=`paperconf` case "$paper" in a4) texconfig paper $paper texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper texconfig xdvi $paper ;; letter) texconfig paper $paper texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper texconfig xdvi us ;; legal|a3) texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper texconfig xdvi $paper ;; ledger|tabloid) texconfig dvipdfm paper $paper ;; a1|a1r|a2|a2r|a3|a3r|a4|a4r|a5|a5r|a6|a6r|a7|a7r|b1|b1r|b2|b2r|b3|b3r|b4|b4r|b5|b5r|b6|b6r|b7|b7r|c1|c1r|c2|c2r|c3|c3r|c4|c4r|c5|c5r|c6|c6r|c7|c7r|foolscap|usr) texconfig xdvi $paper ;; esac Julian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On 16 May 2006 18:11:44 -0400, Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Sure you can, in fact you already do have such a thing. It's
> > > not an error not to specify margin sizes in your document,
> > > there is a default specified in the class files. If the sysadmin
> > > felt like it he could go and edit those defaults.
Note class files are "included" in a document so it is
also modification of souces. Of course a decent sysadmin
never does that kind of modification.
> I'll note that even after this entire discussion, reading FAQs
> and bug reports
> for days, I still don't know how to do that.
Hmm, really? I don't understand what you want really but
\usepackage[dvips]{geometry}
wouldn't help you?
I've an impression that this thread comes to a state of
"waste of time" now, contrary to my intention.
Regards,2006-5-17(Wed)
--
Debian Developer & Debian JP Developer - much more I18N of Debian
Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Department of Math., Univ. of Tokushima
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Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Frank Küster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Sure you can, in fact you already do have such a thing. It's not an error > > not > > to specify margin sizes in your document, there is a default specified in > > the > > class files. If the sysadmin felt like it he could go and edit those > > defaults. > > No he cannot - the license forbids this. If he wants to change a > standard class to produce a different layout, he has to rename it [1]. > And there's a reason for that. Only if he wants to redistribute it. Or do you claim that copyright law reserves the right to make private modifications that nobody ever sees? That would be unenforceable even if it were true (and I don't believe it's true in any jurisdiction). It's also a way out on the lunatic fringe but then that's another discussion entirely. Not for today. > > Of course people are unlikely to want to edit those files, but they sure do > > want to their default paper size set appropriately. > > To me it seems that only people who don't know how to easily specifiy > papersize specials would want that. I'll note that even after this entire discussion, reading FAQs and bug reports for days, I still don't know how to do that. -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Note that when I compile your program I'll get a different binary. My binary > will be linked with different libraries and use the configuration on my > machine. Your source code is not "portable" in the sense you're using to > describe your typeset documents. Of course it is. I can follow my analogy to match the differences between binaries you are talking about: depending on your settings in map files, $FONT will or will not be embedded in the resulting PS/PDF file. The source code doesn't guarantee 100 % reproducibility of the result, but it does ensure that the most important features (such as paper size for a document) will be preserved. > In fact "portable" means pretty much the opposite of how you're using it when > used to describe source code for programs. It refers to source code that will > work in different environments because it doesn't hard code assumptions about > the environment. Source code that *doesn't* need to be hand modified when > taken to a new platform. And that is why my documents are portable, and yours not: if I want to compile a document you provided (without the paper size specification) on my platform and obtain the right result, I *have* to add a letterpaper option to it, i.e., modify it by hand. > What good would it be to ship your source code to me with my x86 processor if > it's still going to compile to PPC code when I compile it? I may as well have > received the binary. You've gone too far and the analogy gets flawed at this point. As you imply, PPC code is mostly useless on an x86 machine (but not totally: what if I am testing a PPC emulator?). But a letter-formatted PDF file is not useless in Europe. I can at least read it on screen without the slightest problem. > Likewise I have no A4 paper here -- I've never even *seen* an A4 sheet of > paper. What good would it be to have my compiler generate an A4 document I > can't run on my processor? You can read it on screen, you can scale-print it, and if you're not happy with that, then you have more work to do, but there is no way around it. Adapt the paper size in the .tex file, compile it and fix the problems brought by the new layout, because there *will* be such problems, most probably. -- Florent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Florent Rougon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > No, because in this case: > - you cannot study how the document was done; > - you cannot (conveniently) modify the document. > > Writing LaTeX code is comparable to programming, and what is good for > usual software is also good for LaTeX code, most of the times. Note that when I compile your program I'll get a different binary. My binary will be linked with different libraries and use the configuration on my machine. Your source code is not "portable" in the sense you're using to describe your typeset documents. In fact "portable" means pretty much the opposite of how you're using it when used to describe source code for programs. It refers to source code that will work in different environments because it doesn't hard code assumptions about the environment. Source code that *doesn't* need to be hand modified when taken to a new platform. What good would it be to ship your source code to me with my x86 processor if it's still going to compile to PPC code when I compile it? I may as well have received the binary. Likewise I have no A4 paper here -- I've never even *seen* an A4 sheet of paper. What good would it be to have my compiler generate an A4 document I can't run on my processor? -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sure you can, in fact you already do have such a thing. It's not an error not > to specify margin sizes in your document, there is a default specified in the > class files. If the sysadmin felt like it he could go and edit those defaults. No he cannot - the license forbids this. If he wants to change a standard class to produce a different layout, he has to rename it [1]. And there's a reason for that. > Of course people are unlikely to want to edit those files, but they sure do > want to their default paper size set appropriately. To me it seems that only people who don't know how to easily specifiy papersize specials would want that. Regards, Frank [1] Or implement the other option allowed in the LPPL, this other option is it what makes it DFSG-free, but currently there's no framework to use it. -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Frank Küster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Generally what would happen on any reasonably configured system is they > > would > > go to Europe, for example, and rerun LaTeX on their document and print it on > > the paper available. If they've only run LaTeX on their document in the US > > before and printed on letter paper then presumably they would have to check > > the formatting on the new page size just like they had to at home after any > > change. > > Ah, we were misunderstanding. Now I think I understand a bit better, > and the answer is even more: No. No, really not. > > First of all, there's no way to make TeX change the margins it uses > without changing the document code, you can't have a site-wide > customization for that (or at least, it would lead to mayhem). Sure you can, in fact you already do have such a thing. It's not an error not to specify margin sizes in your document, there is a default specified in the class files. If the sysadmin felt like it he could go and edit those defaults. Of course people are unlikely to want to edit those files, but they sure do want to their default paper size set appropriately. -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You guys are talking as if every document is a perfected static document. Not > everybody wants a "portable" document that looks identical everywhere. If I do. > that's the case they would just ship the PDF or Postscript. No, because in this case: - you cannot study how the document was done; - you cannot (conveniently) modify the document. Writing LaTeX code is comparable to programming, and what is good for usual software is also good for LaTeX code, most of the times. > Most people most of the time when they're rerunning LaTeX on their source file > are doing it because they've made changes or their environment has changed. > There's no point in trying to reconstruct precisely the same document every > time even if they're on a new system where different paper sizes are > available. Well, we disagree here, but that is no news. -- Florent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Generally what would happen on any reasonably configured system is they would > go to Europe, for example, and rerun LaTeX on their document and print it on > the paper available. If they've only run LaTeX on their document in the US > before and printed on letter paper then presumably they would have to check > the formatting on the new page size just like they had to at home after any > change. Ah, we were misunderstanding. Now I think I understand a bit better, and the answer is even more: No. No, really not. First of all, there's no way to make TeX change the margins it uses without changing the document code, you can't have a site-wide customization for that (or at least, it would lead to mayhem). So all we could do would be to instruct dvips/pdftex to specifiy a paper size that doesn't fit to the margins used in the document. You don't want that. You simply can't auto-convert a LaTeX document between two paper sizes. If I'm creating a A4 document, then it should be typeset on A4. If anybody wants to print it on letterpaper, well they can try and live with the bad output. Florent has described a couple of approaches. But a system should never be configured to automatically convert anything there. > You guys are talking as if every document is a perfected static document. Not > everybody wants a "portable" document that looks identical > everywhere. Then they should not use TeX. Or, well, they can use TeX. But we won't misconfigure TeX, just on Debian, to behave as they want, and get famous for breaking TeX's well known "look identical everywhere" feature [even more than it already is]. > If that's the case they would just ship the PDF or Postscript. > > Most people most of the time when they're rerunning LaTeX on their source file > are doing it because they've made changes or their environment has changed. > There's no point in trying to reconstruct precisely the same document every > time even if they're on a new system where different paper sizes are > available. You are right, but then you just change the papersize option in the LaTeX code, and you get the new size. If you've done it properly (using geometry or typearea or whatever), you change exactly one occurrence of "a4paper" to "letterpaper" or similar, and you're done: The margins will be for the new papersize, and dvips or pdftex will produces PS/PDF files for printing on the respective size. Any automatism would only change the last part (produce PS/PDF files for printing on the respective size) but leave the rest: The layout will look ugly, and if you've small margins, you might even loose text. Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Florent Rougon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Bullshit. They shot themselves in the foot and are "flummoxed" (guessing > the meaning, sorry) whenever they work on a system that is configured in > a different way than their home computer. Only if it's configured differently than the paper available in a nearby printer. Which would be stupid. Generally what would happen on any reasonably configured system is they would go to Europe, for example, and rerun LaTeX on their document and print it on the paper available. If they've only run LaTeX on their document in the US before and printed on letter paper then presumably they would have to check the formatting on the new page size just like they had to at home after any change. You guys are talking as if every document is a perfected static document. Not everybody wants a "portable" document that looks identical everywhere. If that's the case they would just ship the PDF or Postscript. Most people most of the time when they're rerunning LaTeX on their source file are doing it because they've made changes or their environment has changed. There's no point in trying to reconstruct precisely the same document every time even if they're on a new system where different paper sizes are available. -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What would you do with my "portable" document written for letter paper > if all you have is A4 paper? Unclear question. What is "document"? .tex or .pdf? If it is .tex: - if it is for screen reading, where's the problem? - else, it is for printing. If you are a serious guy, you'll send me a .tex *designed* for A4 paper; otherwise, I can try to compile your crap after adding an a4paper setting, but this will probably result in ugly stuff such as overfull boxes. If it is a .pdf: - for screen reading, no problem; - for printing, there are again several solutions: * printing a letter document on A4 should be generally doable without scaling because letter paper is shorter (in height) and has almost the same width as A4; * the document can be scaled before it is sent to the printer (for instance, Acrobat Reader has a well-known option to do that). (but of course, for anything serious, you have to provide a document in the paper size used for printing) -- Florent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > argument. If you think the user should always specify a paper size then it > should be an error not to specify one, not have a default that doesn't work > properly. As Frank told you, it may well trigger an error in LaTeX 3. Go submit a bug to the LaTeX 3 project if you care so much about that and want to be really, really sure that no specifying a paper size will trigger an error. > The status quo is that the Tex tools, like virtually every other program out > there defaults to one of A4 or Letter unless you specify something else. For But which one? You don't know. I don't know. Better specify the size in your document, then. > most users that default is all they need and works properly on every TeX ^^^ > installation they use and they never bother to specify it specifically in each > document unless they're using an unusual size. Bullshit. Works properly on every TeX installation that is configured as they expect-but-don't-specify, and silently fails on other installations. Otherwise, go tell the world you have implemented a DWIM TeX system that automatically uses the paper size the user wishes (BTW, what does a buildd wish?). > You're arguing that nobody should be using this feature and therefore it > doesn't matter whether it works correctly. But that's bogus. People do use it Not exactly. "Nobody should be using this feature and therefore it doesn't matter what the default is." > and write documents on other systems that work fine only to be flummoxed when > their Debian system doesn't work as expected. Bullshit. They shot themselves in the foot and are "flummoxed" (guessing the meaning, sorry) whenever they work on a system that is configured in a different way than their home computer. -- Florent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Really, arguing that your bug is a feature is just unsightly. If what you > describe was universally a good idea then the right thing to do would be to > make TeX documents require a paper size definition. It doesn't work that way Yes, and that's a bug in LaTeX. I expect this will change in LaTeX 3.0; it will probably by default write papersize specials. In LaTeX 2e, it won't change since this would be an incompatible change (and because there are lots of good alternatives). > and unless you can convince people to make it work that way I don't think there's a need to convince people. > and eliminate all > system-wide configuration then the Debian package should strive to configure > itself reasonably as the sysadmin and users expect. You still didn't understand: It doesn't make sense to configure *the*Debian*package*. You have to configure *each*document*. Everything else leads to non-portability hell. Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Frank Küster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > would describe this, Debian users expect packages to user /etc/papersize >> > and >> > work automatically and won't have read any install document before >> > installing >> > the package. >> >> OpenOffice doesn't use libpaper, either. And I think this is a sane >> decision: A program that is designed to handle different paper sizes on >> a document-per-document basis should not assume some system-wide >> default. This will only confuse things. > > You have to default to something, it may as well be something reasonable. You > would prefer eliminating /etc/papersize and having every package have its own > configuration? No, the point is that for LaTeX this means to give the user a false feeling of security. As soon as they move to a different system, they'll complain that LaTeX stopped to produce correct paper sizes. Better do it correct from the start. > Or having the user have to set the paper size on every document? For a LaTeX document, yes. It's easy; just use \geometry to set your margins, and it will also set the paper size; or use typearea which does the same; or use a class that does it automatically (like the koma-script classes, don't know about memoir). However, I'm not completely opposed to respecting /etc/papersize. I just don't think it's important or at least a really good idea. Therefore I'm not going to try to come up with a proposal how it should work exactly, let alone an implementation. But, as I think I've already said earlier in this or one of the merged bugs: If anybody provides a working patch, I'm willing to give it a try. >> That's just the same as new users don't know how to specifiy unusual >> page geometries, or include a picture, or whatever. > > You seem to be equating configuring paper sizes with run-time usage like > understanding how to write LaTeX code. Yes, I do. > But it's not the same thing at all, > it's generally a one-time configuration at install time. No, it isn't. You forget that you can produce documents of different sizes with LaTeX, and people actually do this - from business cards to posters, not to forget CD labels or covers. Nowadays, people also produce documents which are not meant to be printed at their own printer, or not for printing at all. > Normally users would > expect a system with TeX installed would already be configured properly by the > sysadmin when the package was installed. I'll answer as if you'd had replaces "properly" by "to use the default printer's papersize". Maybe you are right and this is what some Debian users expect. But I am sure it is not what a LaTeX user expects who switches from Windows, Mac or other Linux distros to Debian (or just uses them in parallel). > I still think the right thing is obviously to provide a script to set > tetexconfig-sys paper based on /etc/papersize. Run it on install and print a Please write such a script, we'll have a look at it. > message noting that it has to be rerun any time /etc/papersize is changed. No, not a message. A message to stdout or stderr is useless and won't be seen among all those other messages, and a debconf note would be abusive. Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Norbert Preining <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > There is NO NO NO reasonable default. Get it. I create on a daily basis > documents which are not A4, although my papersize is A4. B4, Crown, > whatever you want. There is no default. There is no default. There is no > default. Maybe for such simple systems as > man it may be easy and useful. But not for TeX. This is not an uncommon rhetorical technique and I admit I've even engaged in it myself at times, sometimes without even realizing it. But it's not a valid argument. If you think the user should always specify a paper size then it should be an error not to specify one, not have a default that doesn't work properly. The status quo is that the Tex tools, like virtually every other program out there defaults to one of A4 or Letter unless you specify something else. For most users that default is all they need and works properly on every TeX installation they use and they never bother to specify it specifically in each document unless they're using an unusual size. You're arguing that nobody should be using this feature and therefore it doesn't matter whether it works correctly. But that's bogus. People do use it and write documents on other systems that work fine only to be flummoxed when their Debian system doesn't work as expected. -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Hi Greg, please stay reasonable. On 15 May 2006 17:14:34 -0400, Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What would you do with my "portable" document written for letter paper if all > you have is A4 paper? It's a bit unclear for me what you are really asking but generally it's no problem for me. > Really, arguing that your bug is a feature is just unsightly. If what you I guess it's more than a feature but a design (or philosophy?) of TeX. If fact, in a sense, one could say that there is no notion of so-called papersize in TeX itself (of course there is in printer driver like dvips). On 15 May 2006 13:35:49 -0400, Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You > would prefer eliminating /etc/papersize and having every package have its own > configuration? Or having the user have to set the paper size on every > document? It's clear for me that Frank didn't say such things. TeX is definitely not a system which can be explained with debconf note (or something) nor can be used only by installing tetex packages but need some learnings. I only try to suggest some explanation to help a user who wonder why /etc/papersize doesn't work for TeX by misunderstanding ;-) and I think Ralf's proposal is good (at least good starting point). On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:35:20 +0200, Ralf Stubner wrote: > I could imagine some smaller changes, though: > > . tetex-bin, README.Debian, '2.1.3. What is configured where?': > Mention default paper size as one of the things configured via > texconfig(-sys). > > . NEWS.Debian: besides updmap-sys and fmtutil-sys also metion > texconfig-sys. Refer to TETEXDOC for the upstream release notes. > [I don't know how to do this properly, since NEWS.Debian already > contains a part 'NEWS in teTeX version 3.0'. Can we change that part? > Add a 'Further NEWS in teTeX version 3.0' part?] > > . Maybe add a part 'What is not documented here' to tetex-bin's > README.Debian: > - (La)TeX usage (mention TeX FAQ and the introductions in there) > - teTeX in general (refer to TETEXDOC) also I think On Mon, 15 May 2006 18:51:59 +0200, Frank Küster wrote: > A program that is designed to handle different paper sizes on > a document-per-document basis should not assume some system-wide > default. This will only confuse things. this kind of generic explanation of TeX would be also necessary. Regards,2006-5-16(Tue)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Mon, 15 Mai 2006, Greg Stark wrote: > What would you do with my "portable" document written for letter paper if all > you have is A4 paper? This is something *COMPLETELY* different. PLease get it!!! If you use letter paper and produce a document in letter paper, I can still print it on physical A4 paper if I don't have physical letter paper at hand. But I can as well go to a shop and by letter paper. If you want decent documents, you *HAVE TO CARE* for such things as paper size, text width, margin size, top margin, bottom margin, foot note size, margin note size, line spacing, and thousands of other things. Yes, there is no "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" as we say in German. You have to learn the language. And with La(TeX) you can specify the paper size in the code, nothing compiled in, nothing binary, it is *your* code which decides on which paper you want to print. > make TeX documents require a paper size definition. It doesn't work that way > and unless you can convince people to make it work that way and eliminate all > system-wide configuration then the Debian package should strive to configure > itself reasonably as the sysadmin and users expect. Or failing that to come as > close as reasonably possible. There is NO NO NO reasonable default. Get it. I create on a daily basis documents which are not A4, although my papersize is A4. B4, Crown, whatever you want. There is no default. There is no default. There is no default. Maybe for such simple systems as man it may be easy and useful. But not for TeX. Best wishes Norbert --- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- BRYMBO The single unappetising bun left in a baker's shop after four p.m. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Florent Rougon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > You have to default to something, it may as well be something reasonable. > > You > > would prefer eliminating /etc/papersize and having every package have its > > own > > configuration? Or having the user have to set the paper size on every > > document? > > Exactly. If you don't specify the paper size *in your document*, then > that document is not portable: compiling it on your computer will give a > different result than compiling it on mine (and on mine, it will most > likely have problems such as overfull boxes, etc.). What would you do with my "portable" document written for letter paper if all you have is A4 paper? Really, arguing that your bug is a feature is just unsightly. If what you describe was universally a good idea then the right thing to do would be to make TeX documents require a paper size definition. It doesn't work that way and unless you can convince people to make it work that way and eliminate all system-wide configuration then the Debian package should strive to configure itself reasonably as the sysadmin and users expect. Or failing that to come as close as reasonably possible. -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You have to default to something, it may as well be something reasonable. You > would prefer eliminating /etc/papersize and having every package have its own > configuration? Or having the user have to set the paper size on every > document? Exactly. If you don't specify the paper size *in your document*, then that document is not portable: compiling it on your computer will give a different result than compiling it on mine (and on mine, it will most likely have problems such as overfull boxes, etc.). > You seem to be equating configuring paper sizes with run-time usage like > understanding how to write LaTeX code. Indeed, setting the paper size should be done via LaTeX code. > it's generally a one-time configuration at install time. Normally > users would expect a system with TeX installed would already be > configured properly by the sysadmin when the package was installed. Precisely: if the system is configured properly (say, defaulting to A5 format), it will force users to write portable documents, which is highly desirable. Similarly, sane people declare their babel parameters *in their documents*, instead of using a configuration file that encourages to write non-portable documents. [ I'm thinking of these three lines I always put in my documents written in French: \NoAutoSpaceBeforeFDP \FrenchItemizeSpacingtrue \FrenchListSpacingtrue Of course, I could put them in frenchb.cfg instead, but the only effect would be an incentive to remove the three lines from each document and therefore write non-portable LaTeX code. ] -- Florent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Frank Küster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > would describe this, Debian users expect packages to user /etc/papersize and > > work automatically and won't have read any install document before > > installing > > the package. > > OpenOffice doesn't use libpaper, either. And I think this is a sane > decision: A program that is designed to handle different paper sizes on > a document-per-document basis should not assume some system-wide > default. This will only confuse things. You have to default to something, it may as well be something reasonable. You would prefer eliminating /etc/papersize and having every package have its own configuration? Or having the user have to set the paper size on every document? > That's just the same as new users don't know how to specifiy unusual > page geometries, or include a picture, or whatever. You seem to be equating configuring paper sizes with run-time usage like understanding how to write LaTeX code. But it's not the same thing at all, it's generally a one-time configuration at install time. Normally users would expect a system with TeX installed would already be configured properly by the sysadmin when the package was installed. > > The install messages don't say anything about tetexconfig-sys. It doesn't > > document that tetex doesn't obey /etc/papersize. Neither does the man page > > point them towards this FAQ or any other documentation. It just leaves them > > hanging with no idea where to go from there. > > There's a long README.Debian in text and html form in the tetex-bin > package. texconfig-sys is explained there. Using debconf messages for > this would be debconf abuse. Maybe we can add a remark about papersizes > in the configuration section of this document. I still think the right thing is obviously to provide a script to set tetexconfig-sys paper based on /etc/papersize. Run it on install and print a message noting that it has to be rerun any time /etc/papersize is changed. It's not perfect but it's the best you can do, /etc/papersize doesn't actually change frequently and at least this way Debian users wouldn't be surprised on install and left hanging. The expectation is that /etc/papersize is respected and any package that has to violate that should notify the user that an extra step is required to work around the problem. There are plenty of packages that do similar things. Things like update-inetd which prints a message noting that if you're using xinetd you have to manually update xinetd.conf. -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> would describe this, Debian users expect packages to user /etc/papersize and
> work automatically and won't have read any install document before installing
> the package.
OpenOffice doesn't use libpaper, either. And I think this is a sane
decision: A program that is designed to handle different paper sizes on
a document-per-document basis should not assume some system-wide
default. This will only confuse things.
> So while a user that installs from source also has to do this configuration
> it's no detour from the rest of their installation. Debian users are at a
> complete loss. They just typed "apt-get install tetex" and they're left with a
> broken package and no idea where to go from there.
I don't understand you. I don't see any brokenness. After you've
installed tetex, you can't create any document unless you've learned how
to write LaTeX code. Learning how to specifiy paper sizes to the
typesetting engine ("How long should the lines be?") is one thing,
learning how to specify paper sizes to the output processor (pdfTeX for
direct PDF output, dvipdfm(x) for dvi->PDF, dvips for dvi->PS) is an
other.
That's just the same as new users don't know how to specifiy unusual
page geometries, or include a picture, or whatever.
> The install messages don't say anything about tetexconfig-sys. It doesn't
> document that tetex doesn't obey /etc/papersize. Neither does the man page
> point them towards this FAQ or any other documentation. It just leaves them
> hanging with no idea where to go from there.
There's a long README.Debian in text and html form in the tetex-bin
package. texconfig-sys is explained there. Using debconf messages for
this would be debconf abuse. Maybe we can add a remark about papersizes
in the configuration section of this document.
The manpages don't tell you anything about /etc/papersize, how could
they when they come from upstream and don't know anything about it?
Yes, the pdftex manpage could point to the pdfTeX manual, that's a
wishlist bug, but has no relation to the question of papersizes.
Regards, Frank
--
Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX)
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Ralf Stubner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > IMHO this is a question of general LaTeX usage and in no way Debian > specific. In addition, the UK TUG FAQ (aka TeX FAQ) that Norbert > mentioned is actually in tetex-doc: It's Debian specific in that while users of a freshly installed source compile might realize that they have some configuration to do before TeX would know what paper they use and might already be following some install document that would describe this, Debian users expect packages to user /etc/papersize and work automatically and won't have read any install document before installing the package. So while a user that installs from source also has to do this configuration it's no detour from the rest of their installation. Debian users are at a complete loss. They just typed "apt-get install tetex" and they're left with a broken package and no idea where to go from there. The install messages don't say anything about tetexconfig-sys. It doesn't document that tetex doesn't obey /etc/papersize. Neither does the man page point them towards this FAQ or any other documentation. It just leaves them hanging with no idea where to go from there. -- greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Hi Ralf, On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:35:20 +0200, Ralf Stubner wrote: > On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 14:14 +0900, Atsuhito Kohda wrote: > > > If this is generic and useful enough, how about to document this > > in FAQ or something of tetex-bin (or tetex-base?). > > IMHO this is a question of general LaTeX usage and in no way Debian > specific. In addition, the UK TUG FAQ (aka TeX FAQ) that Norbert > mentioned is actually in tetex-doc: > I could imagine some smaller changes, though: Your suggestion would be reasonable, so I didn't claim my request anymore but please note that there are requests from Debian users like following; On 11 May 2006 21:08:13 -0400, Gregory Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm trying to update a tex document and I'm having trouble because tex seems > to be defaulting to A4. But I have /etc/papersize set to "letter". in this sense, I guess this might be Debian specific. Also I've experience to be asked from my colleagues (novice TeX user though) if there was any simple means to tell DVI its papersize and as I was not so familiar with geometry package so I suspected \AtBeginDvi macro might be a candidate. Anyway it will be good if we can provide any hints to a user who wonders why TeX doesn't obey /etc/papersize. Regards, 2006-5-15(Mon) -- Debian Developer & Debian JP Developer - much more I18N of Debian Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Department of Math., Univ. of Tokushima -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 14:14 +0900, Atsuhito Kohda wrote:
> I personally haven't used this kind of trick but I heard that
> some users like to set
> \AtBeginDvi{\special{papersize=\the\paperwidth,\the\paperheight}}
> in their preamble.
IMHO this is a bad idea, since it ties your files to dvi-drivers that
understand this particular syntax. The LaTeX packages that I mentioned
on different occasions in this thread do something similar, but in a
more flexible way. For example, they autodetect pdfTeX and use the right
syntax for that.
> If this is generic and useful enough, how about to document this
> in FAQ or something of tetex-bin (or tetex-base?).
IMHO this is a question of general LaTeX usage and in no way Debian
specific. In addition, the UK TUG FAQ (aka TeX FAQ) that Norbert
mentioned is actually in tetex-doc:
/usr/share/texmf-tetex/doc/help/faq/uktug-faq/FAQ-papersize.html
texconfig as interface for changing the default paper size is also
metnioned in the teTeX-FAQ
/usr/share/texmf-tetex/doc/tetex/teTeX-FAQ.gz
I could imagine some smaller changes, though:
. tetex-bin, README.Debian, '2.1.3. What is configured where?':
Mention default paper size as one of the things configured via
texconfig(-sys).
. NEWS.Debian: besides updmap-sys and fmtutil-sys also metion
texconfig-sys. Refer to TETEXDOC for the upstream release notes.
[I don't know how to do this properly, since NEWS.Debian already
contains a part 'NEWS in teTeX version 3.0'. Can we change that part?
Add a 'Further NEWS in teTeX version 3.0' part?]
. Maybe add a part 'What is not documented here' to tetex-bin's
README.Debian:
- (La)TeX usage (mention TeX FAQ and the introductions in there)
- teTeX in general (refer to TETEXDOC)
cheerio
ralf
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Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Hi all,
I personally haven't used this kind of trick but I heard that
some users like to set
\AtBeginDvi{\special{papersize=\the\paperwidth,\the\paperheight}}
in their preamble.
If this is generic and useful enough, how about to document this
in FAQ or something of tetex-bin (or tetex-base?).
Regards, 2006-5-15(Mon)
--
Debian Developer & Debian JP Developer - much more I18N of Debian
Atsuhito Kohda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Department of Math., Univ. of Tokushima
--
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Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 13:55 -0400, Greg Stark wrote: > Ralf Stubner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > The problem is that (to first order) a DVI file knows nothing about > > paper sizes. So LaTeX itself does not inform pdfTeX/dvips about the > > paper size used. This is a problem for producing PDF files, since there > > the page size has to be explicitly set. Hence a default paper size is > > used, if the user does not specify the paper size by other means > > (geometry.sty, hyperref.sty and the KOMA Script classes do come to my > > mind). > > Then what is this red bounding box xdvi shows me that seems to match the paper > dimensions? See the -paper section in xdvi(1). It defaults to A4, but texconfig changes that, too. The packages I mentioned above are some of those that write additional information (so called \special) into the DVI file. >From this programs like xdvi or dvips can infer the the right paper size. That's an information that is otherwise missing in a DVI file. > In any case I don't think that's quite correct, adding > [letterpaper] did in fact fix the pdflatex output, but not the dvips output > (or perhaps it was the other way around). I am claiming that my statement is correct. Of course, you are free not to believe me. Same for me, and without an example I don't believe that the option letterpaper helped you, since this is the default for the standard LaTeX classes. > > texconfig(-sys) paper letter > > How would I have found out about this except reading the various bug reports > on this issue? Reading documentation like the allready mentioned TETEXDOC or teTeX-FAQ would help. > In fact I've never seen texconfigsys mentioned anywhere, even > in those bug reports. That is not surprising, since texconfig-sys is new in teTeX 3.0. See TETEXDOC for details. cheerio ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Sam, 13 Mai 2006, Greg Stark wrote: > As it currently stands it requires users to go hunt through bug reports to > find the magic bit of lore they need to get tex to work. PLease stay reasonable. This is a well known issue, and 10sec of typing pdftex papersize into google and you would have found TeX Frequently Asked QUestions of the TUG: http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=papersize where there is explicit mentioning of pdftex and the general problems with paper sizes. We try our best to make TeX easy for the users, but as it stands, TeX is not easy. Best wishes Norbert --- Dr. Norbert Preining Università di Siena gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- GUERNSEY (adj.) --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
Ralf Stubner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, May 12, 2006 at 16:38 -0400, Gregory Stark wrote:
> >
> > It's actually worse than that.
> >
> > I have a LaTeX document that specifies
> >
> > \documentclass[letterpaper]{article}
> >
> > This works fine in LaTeX, it generates a correctly sized DVI file which
> > generates a fine postscript file using dvips. However pdflatex overrides
> > this
> > with the "default" and generates an incorrect A4 page with the first inch of
> > the page cut off.
> >
> > So your hard coded dimensions are actually overriding the document's
> > specified
> > dimensions.
>
> The problem is that (to first order) a DVI file knows nothing about
> paper sizes. So LaTeX itself does not inform pdfTeX/dvips about the
> paper size used. This is a problem for producing PDF files, since there
> the page size has to be explicitly set. Hence a default paper size is
> used, if the user does not specify the paper size by other means
> (geometry.sty, hyperref.sty and the KOMA Script classes do come to my
> mind).
Then what is this red bounding box xdvi shows me that seems to match the paper
dimensions? In any case I don't think that's quite correct, adding
[letterpaper] did in fact fix the pdflatex output, but not the dvips output
(or perhaps it was the other way around).
> > I'm also confused as the earlier bug reports mentioned an
> > /etc/texmf/pdftex.cfg but there's no such file on my machine.
>
> pdfTeX no longer uses a run time configuration file. Things like the
> default paper size are now part of the format (eg pdflatex.fmt). From my
> point of view, this change makes it impossible to use /etc/papersize
> together with pdfTeX.
>
> > Is this configuration that the user is expected to do for each tex tool
> > documented anywhere? Where can I find a list of files I have to touch to
> > switch to letter paper?
>
> texconfig(-sys) paper letter
How would I have found out about this except reading the various bug reports
on this issue? In fact I've never seen texconfigsys mentioned anywhere, even
in those bug reports.
How hard would it be to provide a shell script that runs texconfig-sys with
the output from libpaper and just document that you have to run it to get tex
to work properly?
As it currently stands it requires users to go hunt through bug reports to
find the magic bit of lore they need to get tex to work.
> or use a package like geometry that informs the pdfTeX/dvips about the
> paper size used. See also 'texdoc TETEXDOC'.
--
greg
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Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
On Fri, May 12, 2006 at 16:38 -0400, Gregory Stark wrote:
>
> It's actually worse than that.
>
> I have a LaTeX document that specifies
>
> \documentclass[letterpaper]{article}
>
> This works fine in LaTeX, it generates a correctly sized DVI file which
> generates a fine postscript file using dvips. However pdflatex overrides this
> with the "default" and generates an incorrect A4 page with the first inch of
> the page cut off.
>
> So your hard coded dimensions are actually overriding the document's specified
> dimensions.
The problem is that (to first order) a DVI file knows nothing about
paper sizes. So LaTeX itself does not inform pdfTeX/dvips about the
paper size used. This is a problem for producing PDF files, since there
the page size has to be explicitly set. Hence a default paper size is
used, if the user does not specify the paper size by other means
(geometry.sty, hyperref.sty and the KOMA Script classes do come to my
mind).
> I'm also confused as the earlier bug reports mentioned an
> /etc/texmf/pdftex.cfg but there's no such file on my machine.
pdfTeX no longer uses a run time configuration file. Things like the
default paper size are now part of the format (eg pdflatex.fmt). From my
point of view, this change makes it impossible to use /etc/papersize
together with pdfTeX.
> Is this configuration that the user is expected to do for each tex tool
> documented anywhere? Where can I find a list of files I have to touch to
> switch to letter paper?
texconfig(-sys) paper letter
or use a package like geometry that informs the pdfTeX/dvips about the
paper size used. See also 'texdoc TETEXDOC'.
cheerio
ralf
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Bug#225833: Letter vs A4 again
It's actually worse than that.
I have a LaTeX document that specifies
\documentclass[letterpaper]{article}
This works fine in LaTeX, it generates a correctly sized DVI file which
generates a fine postscript file using dvips. However pdflatex overrides this
with the "default" and generates an incorrect A4 page with the first inch of
the page cut off.
So your hard coded dimensions are actually overriding the document's specified
dimensions.
I'm also confused as the earlier bug reports mentioned an
/etc/texmf/pdftex.cfg but there's no such file on my machine.
Is this configuration that the user is expected to do for each tex tool
documented anywhere? Where can I find a list of files I have to touch to
switch to letter paper?
--
greg
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