Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 09:49:31PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> Jason Gunthorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You can configure fetchmail to run through procmail.
> 
> Er, the fetchmail FAQ implies that if you use -mda procmail you can lose
> mail to resource exhaustion.

You lose .forward and aliases.

Of course, procmail can do both real easy.


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Re: Bug#21969: debian-policy: needs clarification about Standards-Version

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul> Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> In any case, policy is not meant to be followed anyway.

Raul> Cut it out, Manoj.

Why? You should be happy I'm on your side now. Were you not
 objecting to the statement that policy has to be followed? Well,
 either policy has to be followed, or not. Please make up your mind on
 the issue.

manoj
 who thinks that with the exit of the policy editor, policy may well
 be dead.
-- 
 "You pathetic jugglers never lowered yourselves to developing the
 software. You should have paid a little more attention to R & D."
 Cyberpunk comics
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


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Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented
>> MTA bar none!

Raul> Please don't confuse lots of documentation for well documented.

In my opinion, sendmail is well documented *and* has lots of
 documentation. I also fail to find sendmail.cf obfuscatory -- but
 then, I have been writing sendmail.cf files since 1992. 

Raul> In fact, a useful documentation tactic is to alter the program
Raul> to make it easier to document.

Are you saying this has happened to exim? or qmail? or
 sendmail? or is it just a general statement?

manoj
-- 
 I like work; it fascinates me; I can sit and look at it for hours.
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 07:42:08PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Rev> smail is NASTY to configure over dialup links.  And getting worse
> Rev> it seems.  I couldn't do it.  sendmail is clearly not suited for
> Rev> the task.  
> 
>   Just don't tell that to my machine.
> 
>   manoj
>  who is happy with sendmail and does have a dialup connection and diald

How did you get sendmail to cooperate with dialup?

And sendmail is still not suited to being easy to configure.  sendmailconfig
is "not that bad" but it's also "not that good" if the intent is for a
person who doesn't know anything beyond that their smtp server is
mail.ispdomain.com about it.

ssmtp is the right solution it looks like, probably along with fetchmail and
either procmail (this would IMO be preferred) or deliver..



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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 07:33:03PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> > one word:  fetchmail.
> 
> fetchmail doesn't do local mail delivery, but relies on an smtp server.
> ssmtp is not an smtp server.

one more word:  procmail

[from man page]
   -m, --mDa
  (Keyword:  mda)  You can force mail to be passed to
  an MDA directly (rather than forwarded to port  25)
  with  the  -mda or -m option.  If fetchmail is run­
  ning as root, it sets its userid  to  that  of  the
  target  user  while delivering mail through an MDA.
  Some possible MDAs are  "/usr/sbin/sendmail  -oem",
  "/usr/lib/sendmail  -oem",  "/usr/bin/formail", and
  "/usr/bin/deliver".

There's also a fetchmailrc keyword for this.  I suggest procmail over
deliver because for one procmail is in the simplest setup identical to
deliver and it can use MH and Maildir folders (that is, whenever the next
procmail gets uploaded with the Maildir patches) and it can also do spam
filtering if you write a .rc's for it.

Procmail does not require a .procmailrc unless you wanna do something fancy
with it.


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Re: ppp: how to tell the connection speed?

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 09:10:08PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Rev. Joseph Carter writes:
> > I think most Rockwell chipsets can do that.  Part of a 4-5 line report of
> > the connection info.  Quite verbose actually.
> 
> But somewhere in there they always say 'CONNECT'.  The one I'm dealing with
> apparently doesn't.  I'm trying to find out if this is common enough that
> pppconfig needs to provide for it.

Yes, it's common enough.


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Re: Coming to closure on ae...

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 08:24:50PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> > Test $DISPLAY, it's the Right Way to test for X.
> 
> But not the right way to test for xterm.

If $DISPLAY is set you're either in an xterm, rxvt, or kvt.  As far as ae
would care, these are one and the same.


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Re: Initial partitions

[Mark W. Eichin]

> [1] I don't why my system always reboots in "read-only" mode now;

Umm, what kernel were you running before? The kernel has defaulted to
mounting the root read-only for a *long* time (before debian-1.3, I
thought), and then remounting it in the rc scripts -- grep shows:
/etc/rcS.d/S10checkroot.sh:mount -n -o remount,rw /
/etc/rcS.d/S10checkroot.sh:mount -o remount,rw /


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Re: intent to take mawk and gawk

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

  Chris> Debian's [...]  Chris> and adding the requirement for PGP (which I
  Chris> never needed before) plus my growing involvement in small start-up
  Chris> businesses (mostly Debian Linux based) have consumed all my time.

FUD. 

I created PGP keys three years ago because I needed to sign Debian uploads.

-- 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  According to the latest official figures, 
http://rosebud.ml.org/~edd  43% of all statistics are totally worthless.


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Initial partitions

[Bear Giles]

I upgraded to libc6 and hamm this weekend... and had my entire
root partition flagged "readonly" by an unknown mechanism.  This
got me cursing and thinking[1]

Ideally the issue should never come up, but hard disks fail.
Hard disks are replaced as hardware is upgraded.  Occasionally
things get totally hosed when you push the edge.

The information maintained in dpkg (theoretically) specifies
the contents of the file system except for /etc, /var, /usr/local,
and /home.  Furthermore, many (even most?) people won't do
anything too fancy with /etc, /var or /usr/local, especially if
any servers (e.g., web and ftp) use /home instead of /var for 
their data files.

This suggests that it may make sense to recommend that the default
disk configuration is three partitions, not two:

   /  (existing)
   /home  (new)
   (swap) (existing)

since even if the system must be reinstalled from original media, 
the user won't lose their personal files (although they may lose 
some mail).  Taking this a step further, a fixed-size /var partition
could be specified with the expectation that it will maintain
status logs even after a reinstallation.

Setting up two ext2fs partitions instead of one is a bit of a
pain... but nothing compared to the hassles if the disk is
set up as one big partition when something goes wrong.  Should
the installation script be modified to suggest multiple partitions?

Bear Giles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[1] I don't why my system always reboots in "read-only" mode now;
since I can't log in I have little information.  It's not a problem
with the partition table, lilo configuration, or /etc/fstab.  Also,
I can boot off a different partition on the same disk (although it
is still 1.3).


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Why is premail in non-free?

[Christian Hudon]

Could anyone tell me why premail is in non-free? I've read the license a
couple of times, and I really don't see anything that would prevent it from 
being in main (or at least contrib). Am I missing something?

  Christian

---

This is the Debian Linux prepackaged version of premail.

This package was put together by Karl Sackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
from sources obtained from:

ftp://ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/remailer/premail-0.45.tar.gz

For more information see:

http://www.c2.net/~raph/premail.html
http://www.c2.net/~raph/premail/

premail is covered under the following copyright:

# Copyright 1996 Raph Levien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
# All rights reserved.
# 
# This program is free for commercial and non-commercial use as long as
# the following conditions are adhered to.
# 
# Copyright remains Raph Levien's, and as such any Copyright notices in
# the code are not to be removed. If this package is used in a product,
# Raph Levien should be given attribution as the author of the parts of
# the program used. This can be in the form of a textual message at
# program startup or in documentation (online or textual) provided with
# the package.
# 
# Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
# modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are
# met:
# 
# 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the copyright notice,
#this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
# 
# 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
#notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
#documentation and/or other materials provided with the
#distribution.
# 
# 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this
#software must display the following acknowledgement: This product
#includes software developed by Raph Levien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. If more
#than one author is so cited, the list may be combined into one
#sentence.
# 
# 4. Use and adaptation of small, specific components of this software
#is actively encouraged, and is exempt from the requirements above.
# 
# This software is provided by Raph Levien ``as is'' and any express or
# implied warranties, including, but not limited to, the implied
# warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose are
# disclaimed. In no event shall the author or contributors be liable for
# any direct, indirect, incidental, special, exemplary, or consequential
# damages (including, but not limited to, procurement of substitute
# goods or services; loss of use, data, or profits; or business
# interruption) however caused and on any theory of liability, whether
# in contract, strict liability, or tort (including negligence or
# otherwise) arising in any way out of the use of this software, even if
# advised of the possibility of such damage.
# 
# The license and distribution terms for any publically available
# version or derivative of this code cannot be changed. i.e. this code
# cannot simply be copied and put under another distribution license
# [including the GNU Public License.]
# 
# The reason behind this being stated in this direct manner is (Eric
# Young's) past experience in code simply being copied and the
# attribution removed from it and then being distributed as part of
# other packages. This implementation was a non-trivial and unpaid
# effort.


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Re: monochrome cards

[Christian Weisgerber]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bear Giles
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jason Gunthorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >Thats a good point, who actually has a truely MONO screen anymore? [...]
> >I think machines with a mono video card (ie a herc) would be unable to run
> >Debian in the first place, and a greyscale screen doesn't need mono
> >support.

The machine I'm typing this on is an AM386DX-40 with an original,
(c)1983, full-length Hercules Graphics Card, i.e. MDA compatible.

I installed Debian 1.3 on it last fall, and I didn't run into any big
problems. dselect looks nicer when TERM is set to linux-m, but it is
still usable even when TERM=linux (and presumably color codes are used).
A small problem I encountered is that libslang seems to ignore terminfo
and treat linux-m as a color terminal, which more or less screws up
jed/slrn/mutt.
The HGC has a graphics mode, but I don't run X11 there. I did install
MGR for a laugh, though.

I haven't upgraded to 2.0-beta yet.

I would be fairly disappointed if compatibility with MDA were broken for
no good reason, and frankly, I can't imagine a good reason.

> That said, I can't see anyone using a MCA card as his primary 
> interface.

I do use it as my primary interface. If you are running in text mode,
VGA isn't inherently better than MDA. Okay, it has colors, but those
aren't an improvement in everybody's book, and MDA can do real
underlining. As far as I am concerned, MDA is supremely ergonomic for
text mode applications. I still have a more modern, single-chip HGC and
a pair of mono monitors stashed away. The alternative would be to use a
real terminal.

> I certainly wouldn't have objected if I had to install a VGA card to
> run the installation program.

I would scream bloody murder.

> How much space would be saved if the MCA code is dropped?

About none.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  See another pointless homepage at http://home.pages.de/~naddy/>.


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Re: Run away TCSH

[Mark W. Eichin]

someone on tcsh-dev found that bug - I sent in the particular patch as
a bug report, but haven't heard anything (on this or on the
history-lines 2*longer than the buffer problem either, though I
haven't dug through and sent that upstream myself...)


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Re: intent to take mawk and gawk

[Chris Fearnley]

'Santiago Vila wrote:'

Sorry, I seem to be perpetually several days behind in reading
debian-devel.

>If nobody objects, I intent to take mawk and gawk.

I intend to keep these two.

>[ There have been no maintainer uploads since March 1997, is one year
>  enough? ].

Sorry.

I promise to learn PGP this week (I'm giving a talk to the Philadelphia
Area Linux Users Group on PGP so I better learn it this week!).  Then
I'll be able to maintain mawk and gawk.  Debian's failure to keep
backward development compatibility with bo and adding the requirement
for PGP (which I never needed before) plus my growing involvement in
small start-up businesses (mostly Debian Linux based) have consumed all
my time.

-- 
Christopher J. Fearnley  |  Linux/Internet Consulting
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |  Design Science Revolutionary
http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf   |  Explorer in Universe
ftp://ftp.netaxs.com/people/cjf  |  "Dare to be Naïve" -- Bucky Fuller


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Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Amos Shapira]

On Sun, May 3 1998, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'
|
|Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented MTA
|bar none!  The O'Reliey book alone on sendmail is 2 1/5" thick.  Probably 
|close to everything that has ever been done with mail has been done with
|sendmail (and possibly some things that can only be done with sendmail --
|and NO I don't know of any examples personally).

The only reason I still keep sendmail on my home machine is that I
didn't get any answer about how to implement a "fallback MX" in Qmail.
The point is a little mute now that I have an FR line at home but
still maybe this is your example.

Cheers,

--Amos

--Amos Shapira| "Of course Australia was marked for
133 Shlomo Ben-Yosef st.  |  glory, for its people had been chosen
Jerusalem 93 805  |  by the finest judges in England."
ISRAEL[EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Anonymous


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Re: who info and /etc/utmp

[Dale Scheetz]

On Sun, 3 May 1998, Raul Miller wrote:

> Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Is the info page wrong? Should I submit a bug?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Aside: on solaris it's /var/adm/utmp, on the bsd system I have access to
> it's /var/run/utmp, I don't remember what system would have it in /etc/.

Coherent System V

Which is probably where the man page originated.

Thanks,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

_-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_-


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Re: who info and /etc/utmp

[Raul Miller]

Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is the info page wrong? Should I submit a bug?

Yes.

Aside: on solaris it's /var/adm/utmp, on the bsd system I have access to
it's /var/run/utmp, I don't remember what system would have it in /etc/.

-- 
Raul


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w05-1

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Re: who info and /etc/utmp

[Ben Pfaff]

   The who info page indicates that who finds its data in /etc/utmp, but I
   have no such file and who works ok. The file I do have is /var/run/utmp,
   which I can only assume who knows about.

Yes, it does.

   Is the info page wrong? Should I submit a bug?

Yes and yes.


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who info and /etc/utmp

[Dale Scheetz]

The who info page indicates that who finds its data in /etc/utmp, but I
have no such file and who works ok. The file I do have is /var/run/utmp,
which I can only assume who knows about.
Is the info page wrong? Should I submit a bug?

Thanks,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

_-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_-


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Random idea: packages with lots of bugs on WNPP

[David N. Welton]

Sitting around thinking about nothing in particular, and it occurred
to me that it might be useful to include some of the buggier packages
on the WNPP.  This might be a good way to get people to work on fixing
these packages, instead of seeking out new things to package.  Maybe
we could include all packages with more than X bugs.. the top X
percent.. 

Maybe we could have some means of excluding several of the bigger ones
such as X, that do have active maintainers, but naturally, due to
their size, have lots of bugs.

Anyway.. just thought I'd toss this out for consideration.
-- 
David Welton http://www.efn.org/~davidw

 --Debian GNU/Linux--


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Duplicate package names

[rick]

I've combined the Packages files for main, contrib, non-free
and non-us for a program I'm working on and there are about 10
duplicate package names. tcpquota is in contrib/admin & admin;
xexec in contrib/misc and x11, for example. Is this because
the different versions have different distribution definitions
and both will stay around or is it just that some housekeeping
needs to be done?

I guess it doesn't matter if both will stick around because I'd
have to allow for package name dupes to include the experimental
Packages file anyhow.

I've put the current version of the program up at
http://www.tfn.net/~ricknie . I realize no one has any spare time
right now, but I'd really appreciate it if someone familiar with
Debian could have a look at it and tell me if it's worthwhile
or if it just duplicates things that are already out there.

It might be more useful to turn it into a program that just
allows comparisons and searches of the file lists from the
various Linux distributions. That's providing I can find them.

Rick


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Joel Klecker]

At 10:11 -0400 1998-05-02, Raul Miller wrote:
>Rev. Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> You don't need ftpd and telnetd.  You probably do need an http server for
>> documentation, but then again dhttpd is small and does the job nicely.
>
>Much better than a server would be a browser which supports cgi for
>local browsing.

Why? What's wrong with a small server such as boa?

--
Joel "Espy" Klecker
Debian GNU/Linux Developer...



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Re: Preliminary intent to package - enlightenment

[Jules Bean]

--On Sun, May 3, 1998 5:26 pm +0100 "Jules Bean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 

> Hi there...
> 
> Anyone out there already grabbed the enlightenment package, or have a
reason
> why it shouldn't be in slink?  If not, I hereby announce intent to package
> enlightenment for slink/main.

Oops.

I withdraw this request.

Enlightenment is already being packaged - by [EMAIL PROTECTED]  I'll
register as a developer, and go pick up a WNPP package..

Jules

/+---+-\
|  Jelibean aka  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  6 Evelyn Rd|
|  Jules aka |   |  Richmond, Surrey   |
|  Julian Bean   | [EMAIL PROTECTED]|  TW9 2TF *UK*   |
++---+-+
|  War doesn't demonstrate who's right... just who's left. |
|  When privacy is outlawed... only the outlaws have privacy.  |
\--/



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Preliminary intent to package - enlightenment

[Jules Bean]

Hi there...

Anyone out there already grabbed the enlightenment package, or have a reason
why it shouldn't be in slink?  If not, I hereby announce intent to package
enlightenment for slink/main.

Subject to me first registering succesfully as a developer.

Yours,

Jules Bean

/+---+-\
|  Jelibean aka  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  6 Evelyn Rd|
|  Jules aka |   |  Richmond, Surrey   |
|  Julian Bean   | [EMAIL PROTECTED]|  TW9 2TF *UK*   |
++---+-+
|  War doesn't demonstrate who's right... just who's left. |
|  When privacy is outlawed... only the outlaws have privacy.  |
\--/



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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Jim Pick]

> > What news servers besides slrn support reading news directly from the news
> > spool w/o a news server?
> 
> tin (rather than tin -r or rtin). 

Gnus (in emacs).

Cheers,

 - Jim


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Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Anders Hammarquist]

>'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'
>
>I will take a look at sendmail because of Manoj's remarks since the only
>significant disadvantage to sendmail that I could see is that it can be a
>real tough one to set up properly (if you are a continuously connected
>mail server then it is almost a 'snap' to set up using the conventional
>sendmail configuration).

I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to make configuration just
as easy for a dial-up case. We need to figure out what the typical dial-up
cases look like and integrate them into the configuration as well.

>I don't consider myself to be stupid but the e-mail issue is really
>raising doubts...
>
>It should not require days of study of various documents, man pages,
>HOWTOs, example configuration files, etc. just to get an email system
>that:
>
>1)  Places a vaild (to the ISP) From header on all internet bound mail
>(no matter what the user's local network name might be).
>
>2)  Send all 'outbound' mail to a smarthost depending upon which ISP
>is in use.
>
>I realize that #1 is not really the MTA's 'responsibility' but it is the
>logical place for this to be accomplished since any place else in the
>'chain' is not unique (ie:  there are too many mail composing software
>packages, most (AFAIK) won't let you muck with the headers (and really
>shouldn't).
>
>#2 IS the responsibility of the MTA but AFAIK none were designed with the
>idea that you might have different 'smarthosts' as different times.

#1 is simple to do, though it probably needs a few variants, depeding on
whether the machine serves an entire domain or just a sigle account/email
address.

#2 Might be doable using sendmail's smarthost "MX" feature (setting
the smarthost to a list of colon-separated hosts). With a bit of hacking
it shouldn't be hard to have it read it from a file on each delivery
attempt.

Regards,
/Anders

-- 
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http://www.netg.se   |  | Tel: +46 31 50 79 40


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Hugo Haas]

On Sat, May 02, 1998, Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:
> On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 11:36:28AM -0700, John Labovitz wrote:
> > have you looked at ssmtp?  i just took a quick look at the source, and
> > it seems that it's *extremely* simple -- sounds like a good one for a
> > send-only MTA.
> >
> > config options excerpted from the INSTALL file:
> > 
> > root: The person who gets root's mail (also daemons', etc).
> > This userid (on the mailhub) get all mail sent to
> > local adressees with userids less than 10.  In other
> > words, she gets mail the system mails to root, daemon,
> > etc.
> 
> ooh!  I did -NOT- know it did this.  Not thinking it had this was my one
> complaint about the package.  Can you specify your own MDA (ie procmail) for
> this?

I'm afraid that you can't do that (well, the first s in ssmtp stands
for simple...).

> > mailhub: The place where the mail goes.  This is looked up with
> > gethostbyname, and so must resolve to an IP address. MX
> > records don't count, as several vendors' machines that we
> > run ssmtp on (notably suns) don't fully support them.
> > They'd be nice, though...
> 
> That's fine for your dialup ISP.
> 
> > rewriteDomain: The place to say the mail came from. This is for
> > hostname-hiding, and only applies if the programs is
> > compiled with REWRITE_DOMAIN defined. We don't usually have
> > to do so (our main mailhubs run zmailer: our clients run all
> > sorts of junk).
> 
> Again, fine for a dialup ISP...
> 
> > hostname: the Fully Qualified Domain Name of the machine, in case
> > you have set hostname to the short form.
> 
> Ugh.  Depending on what it needs this for, it could be not good that it
> wants this.  Then again, since this thing would probably only run when you
> were on the net, it would be no major pain to just configure it in ip-up.d.

It is used to write header stuff, to generate the From: line if
RewriteDomain is not specified.

It is also used to send a HELO command, but this could/should be changed.

Regards,

Hugo
(ssmtp maintainer)

-- 
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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 08:39:25PM -0700, Joey Hess wrote:
> Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:
> > slrnpull should probably be seperated from slrn simply because there's
> > nothing in it that REQUIRES slrn other than that it puts things in
> > /var/spool/slrnpull (can be changed) and if you don't LIKE slrn you can
> > still have slrnpull, etc.
> 
> What news servers besides slrn support reading news directly from the news
> spool w/o a news server?

tin (rather than tin -r or rtin). 


Hamish
-- 
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Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5
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Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Raul Miller]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented MTA
> bar none!

Please don't confuse lots of documentation for well documented.

In fact, a useful documentation tactic is to alter the program to
make it easier to document.

-- 
Raul


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Re: fetchmail/procmail was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Sun, 3 May 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'
> 
> I don't think so Jason...
> 
> Fetchmail is also pretty robust about mail handling but it expect whatever
> it 'hands a message too' to do something with the message.
> 
> I won't even pretend to know the nature of the problems but I suspect that
> it deals with the idea that the MTA's all honor the "SIZE" message whereas
> I don't believe that Procmail does.  Fetchmail's problem then is that once
> I has 'the ok' from Procmail to transfer the message, there is nothing that
> fetchmail can do if procmail later fails.

No, it should always check the return code of the subprocess (if it is
using procmail) before it erases the message from the server. If the
return code is bad it should never erase the message.

This is what it does with smtp, I see no reason why it couldn't with
procmail as well.

Procmail 'spools' the email into /var/spool/mail just as safely as exim or
sendmail does into it's queue.

You see, the MTA calls procmail to put the message into the mailbox, so it
HAS to be reliable!

> Procmail OTOH was designed to take mail that is presumably already stored
> on the system's HD and process that mail for delivery.

What is the difference from taking mail that is stored on a hard disk from
taking mail that is stored on a remote mailserver? Very little IMHO.

> BTW, the only program that has lost mail on my system has been Procmail
> (configuration error on my part of course but the mail was lost).
> Fetchmail has never lost a message, exim has never lost a message.

I've had older versions of fetchmail drop email when the MTA gave errors
:<
 
Jason


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Re: fetchmail/procmail was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Carl Mummert]

The procmail documentation makes it clear that, if you have a 'real' mda
which hands mail off to procmail via .forward, then if procmail fails it
will leave the message enqueued in the mta.

So if disk space is not a problem, install smail or sendmail along with
procmail, and try that.

Carl

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Fetchmail is also pretty robust about mail handling but it expect whatever
> it 'hands a message too' to do something with the message.
> 
> I won't even pretend to know the nature of the problems but I suspect that
> it deals with the idea that the MTA's all honor the "SIZE" message whereas
> I don't believe that Procmail does.  Fetchmail's problem then is that once
> I has 'the ok' from Procmail to transfer the message, there is nothing that
> fetchmail can do if procmail later fails.
> 
> Again, if I understand this correctly, exim, sendmail, smail, etc. still 
> have a directory that they have spooled the 'to be delivered mail to' so
> that the mail is not lost whereas Procmail either delivers the message or
> it is lost since it did not come from a file on disk.
> 
> I think that the fetchmail/procmail 'thing' is a case where neither
> program is designed for what is being done by the other.  Fetchmail is
> designed to pass off mail to an MDA that checks that it should receive the
> mail and that it has sufficient disk space to store the mail BEFORE it 
> tells fetchmail 'ok give it to me'.
> 
> Procmail OTOH was designed to take mail that is presumably already stored
> on the system's HD and process that mail for delivery.
> 
> BTW, the only program that has lost mail on my system has been Procmail
> (configuration error on my part of course but the mail was lost).
> Fetchmail has never lost a message, exim has never lost a message.
> 
> I do still use Procmail however as it is a great program, you just have to
> be aware that if you tell it to do something impossible your mail or part
> of you mail ends up in /dev/null.
> 
> > 
> > On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 09:08:07PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Sat, 2 May 1998, Raul Miller wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Jason Gunthorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > You can configure fetchmail to run through procmail.
> > > > 
> > > > Er, the fetchmail FAQ implies that if you use -mda procmail you can lose
> > > > mail to resource exhaustion.
> > > 
> > > Then fetchmail is at fault, procmail will not drop your email if your disk
> > > is full, it will give an error code. 
> > > 
> > > Jason
> 
> -- 
> best,
> -bill
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> from a 1996 Micro$loth ad campaign:
> "The less you know about computers the more you want Micro$oft!"
>  See!  They do get some things right!
> 
> 
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Re: fetchmail/procmail was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[wrl]

'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'

I don't think so Jason...

Fetchmail is also pretty robust about mail handling but it expect whatever
it 'hands a message too' to do something with the message.

I won't even pretend to know the nature of the problems but I suspect that
it deals with the idea that the MTA's all honor the "SIZE" message whereas
I don't believe that Procmail does.  Fetchmail's problem then is that once
I has 'the ok' from Procmail to transfer the message, there is nothing that
fetchmail can do if procmail later fails.

Again, if I understand this correctly, exim, sendmail, smail, etc. still 
have a directory that they have spooled the 'to be delivered mail to' so
that the mail is not lost whereas Procmail either delivers the message or
it is lost since it did not come from a file on disk.

I think that the fetchmail/procmail 'thing' is a case where neither
program is designed for what is being done by the other.  Fetchmail is
designed to pass off mail to an MDA that checks that it should receive the
mail and that it has sufficient disk space to store the mail BEFORE it 
tells fetchmail 'ok give it to me'.

Procmail OTOH was designed to take mail that is presumably already stored
on the system's HD and process that mail for delivery.

BTW, the only program that has lost mail on my system has been Procmail
(configuration error on my part of course but the mail was lost).
Fetchmail has never lost a message, exim has never lost a message.

I do still use Procmail however as it is a great program, you just have to
be aware that if you tell it to do something impossible your mail or part
of you mail ends up in /dev/null.

> 
> On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 09:08:07PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> > 
> > On Sat, 2 May 1998, Raul Miller wrote:
> > 
> > > Jason Gunthorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > You can configure fetchmail to run through procmail.
> > > 
> > > Er, the fetchmail FAQ implies that if you use -mda procmail you can lose
> > > mail to resource exhaustion.
> > 
> > Then fetchmail is at fault, procmail will not drop your email if your disk
> > is full, it will give an error code. 
> > 
> > Jason

-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 See!  They do get some things right!


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[wrl]

'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'

I think I'm confused too thought that is not such an unusual state latesly...
Fetchmail IS POP (or IMAP and somthing else but definately NOT smtp) for 
__getting__ the mail.  It IS also smtp for handing the mail to the machine
that it is running on (though I guess that with the --mda procmail switch
it probably uses pipes instead of port 25).

Again, though I will willingly admit to not knowing lots of stuff but what
ISPs _receive_ mail from a user without using smtp to do it (other than the 
completely proprietary systems such as AOL, Juno, etc.)?


On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 11:59:39PM +0100, Mark Baker wrote:
> On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 10:52:48PM +, Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:
> 
> > > But this is aimed at dialup users! You don't want a send-only MTA, as 
> > > dialup
> > > users presumably want to store their mail locally.
> > 
> > Their mail isn't gonna get delivered by smtp
> 
> No? I know several dialup ISPs that do provide SMTP, including one with
> 170,000 customers.
> 
> > unless maybe fetchmail delivers it by smtp.
> 
> Exactly: surely everyone who uses an inferior ISP is going to run fetchmail
> instead? So everyone wants to run an MTA locally. The alternative would be
> to force people to use an MUA with POP built-in, which is far from ideal,
> because that doesn't include some very nice MUAs, and requires you to go
> online at the time you read your mail rather than setting up a cron job,
> 

-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 See!  They do get some things right!


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Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[wrl]

'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'

Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented MTA
bar none!  The O'Reliey book alone on sendmail is 2 1/5" thick.  Probably 
close to everything that has ever been done with mail has been done with
sendmail (and possibly some things that can only be done with sendmail --
and NO I don't know of any examples personally).

Exim is also a good MTA.  It is easier to configure than sendmail, supposedly
faster (though I don't consider that a concern for dailup use - the line 
itself is far too limiting for that to matter).  Like the 'conventional'
sendmail distribution though, the exim.deb appears to me to be almost 
hopelessly confusing and inadequate as far as the dailup user is concerned.
And by 'dailup user' I mean a user that uses a typical personal account with
an ISP and may or may not have a local area network.

I will take a look at sendmail because of Manoj's remarks since the only
significant disadvantage to sendmail that I could see is that it can be a
real tough one to set up properly (if you are a continuously connected
mail server then it is almost a 'snap' to set up using the conventional
sendmail configuration).

I don't consider myself to be stupid but the e-mail issue is really
raising doubts...

It should not require days of study of various documents, man pages,
HOWTOs, example configuration files, etc. just to get an email system
that:

1)  Places a vaild (to the ISP) From header on all internet bound mail
(no matter what the user's local network name might be).

2)  Send all 'outbound' mail to a smarthost depending upon which ISP
is in use.

I realize that #1 is not really the MTA's 'responsibility' but it is the
logical place for this to be accomplished since any place else in the 
'chain' is not unique (ie:  there are too many mail composing software
packages, most (AFAIK) won't let you muck with the headers (and really
shouldn't).

#2 IS the responsibility of the MTA but AFAIK none were designed with the
idea that you might have different 'smarthosts' as different times.


-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
from a 1996 Micro$loth ad campaign:
"The less you know about computers the more you want Micro$oft!"
 See!  They do get some things right!


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Run away TCSH

[Jason Gunthorpe]

I recall there being a discussion on this some time ago, I just noticed on
master,

 4053 branden   11   0  1500 1500   724 R   0 98.6  2.3  1194m tcsh  

(I've killed it now)

Jason


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Joey Hess]

Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:
> slrnpull should probably be seperated from slrn simply because there's
> nothing in it that REQUIRES slrn other than that it puts things in
> /var/spool/slrnpull (can be changed) and if you don't LIKE slrn you can
> still have slrnpull, etc.

What news servers besides slrn support reading news directly from the news
spool w/o a news server?

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Joey Hess]

Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:
> Nah, leafnode does NOT deal with spam well (read: at all).  slrnpull is
> better at that.  Probably why it should be split out of the slrn package.

Hmm, interesting idea. I'm willing to do this if there's any demand

-- 
see shy jo, slrn maintainer


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Joey Hess]

Jim Pick wrote:
> I haven't looked at it.  It's only 15k!  That would be a really good
> choice if it actually does the job.  :-)

One large problem with ssmtp is that it has no queueing. If you try to send
mail offline, it gets lost.

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Sat, 2 May 1998, Raul Miller wrote:

> Jason Gunthorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You can configure fetchmail to run through procmail.
> 
> Er, the fetchmail FAQ implies that if you use -mda procmail you can lose
> mail to resource exhaustion.

Then fetchmail is at fault, procmail will not drop your email if your disk
is full, it will give an error code. 

Jason


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Re: ppp: how to tell the connection speed?

[john]

Rev. Joseph Carter writes:
> I think most Rockwell chipsets can do that.  Part of a 4-5 line report of
> the connection info.  Quite verbose actually.

But somewhere in there they always say 'CONNECT'.  The one I'm dealing with
apparently doesn't.  I'm trying to find out if this is common enough that
pppconfig needs to provide for it.
-- 
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI


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Re: Coming to closure on ae...

[Dale Scheetz]

On Sat, 2 May 1998, Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:

> On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 11:42:39PM +0200, Oliver Elphick wrote:
> >   >There doesn't seem to be a "reliable" method for determining whether or
> >   >not you are in an xterm. Any method so far suggested has "natural"
> >   >configuration situations that break the method.
> > 
> > When you start an xterm, TERM is set to xterm; why not test for that?
> 
> Test $DISPLAY, it's the Right Way to test for X.

I see: in a console the environmental variable DISPLAY is not defined, but
it will be in any X window. 

Sounds like it should work for ae's needs...

Thanks,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

_-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_-


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Raul Miller]

Jason Gunthorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You can configure fetchmail to run through procmail.

Er, the fetchmail FAQ implies that if you use -mda procmail you can lose
mail to resource exhaustion.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Raul Miller]

Drake Diedrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Yep, but it'd be nice if there were guidelines on how to keep local
> packages out of the way of upstream debian packages.

Er.. there are: put everything local in /usr/local/.  (or, for that matter,
under /home/.)

If you're stuck with something elsewhere in the system you can always
use dpkg-divert to ensure that it will never be stepped on. [But then
you're responsible for whatever fails as a result.]

-- 
Raul


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Re: Coming to closure on ae...

[Raul Miller]

Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What would be wrong with having the "non-x" ae tell you in the help
> screen what you need to run to get xterm support? The need for this
> xterm support comes from folks who want to administer a base system
> remotely from a system using an xterm. This is a fairly restricted set
> of folks who should be "clued" enough to deal with the help message.

Should be sufficient to let them know that TERM=xterm is needed
for xterm support.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Craig Sanders]

On Sat, 2 May 1998, Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:

> smail is NASTY to configure over dialup links.  And getting worse it seems. 
> I couldn't do it.  sendmail is clearly not suited for the task.  
 ^^^

why?

sendmail configuration is a no-brainer with debian's sendmailconfig
script. it can handle probably 99% of cases likely to be needed by most
users...all the user has to do is answer a few questions (which have
sensible defaults).

configuring sendmail only becomes difficult when you need to do weird or
complicated things.

craig

--
craig sanders

Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Sat, 2 May 1998, Raul Miller wrote:

> Rev. Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > one word:  fetchmail.
> 
> fetchmail doesn't do local mail delivery, but relies on an smtp server.
> ssmtp is not an smtp server.

You can configure fetchmail to run through procmail.

Jason


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Rev" == Rev Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Rev> smail is NASTY to configure over dialup links.  And getting worse
Rev> it seems.  I couldn't do it.  sendmail is clearly not suited for
Rev> the task.  

Just don't tell that to my machine.

manoj
 who is happy with sendmail and does have a dialup connection and diald
-- 
 It is a rather pleasant experience to be alone in a bank at
 night. Willie Sutton
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
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Re: Coming to closure on ae...

[Raul Miller]

Rev. Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Test $DISPLAY, it's the Right Way to test for X.

But not the right way to test for xterm.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Drake Diedrich]

On 2 May 1998, Jim Pick wrote:

> As far as people developing local packages to add on to Debian (which
> is not really what I am planning) - I don't think additional policy is
> needed for that, because they are "local" packages, so it is a matter
> of "local" policy.

   Yep, but it'd be nice if there were guidelines on how to keep local
packages out of the way of upstream debian packages.  I recently
had a collision between amber (a huge proprietary molecular modelling
package I packaged a year ago) and an update of debianutils.  Both had
which.1.gz manpages, and with force-overwrite off debianutils
wouldn't install.  The solution was to recompile the amber package of
course (since it was the trespasser), but it was a major chore.
I should have compiled the amber package to place everything in
/opt/drake/ or something, but there's little support for adding
directories to the binary, manpage, and library search paths.
If anyone creates a (completely different) package named amber I'll have
to rename this one so it doesn't get squashed.

-Drake




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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Raul Miller]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 06:52:47PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> > mail supports procmail. ssmtp does not support mail reception, nor does
> > it support local mail delivery.

Rev. Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> one word:  fetchmail.

fetchmail doesn't do local mail delivery, but relies on an smtp server.
ssmtp is not an smtp server.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Coming to closure on ae...

[Dale Scheetz]

On Sat, 2 May 1998, Oliver Elphick wrote:

> Dale Scheetz wrote:...
>   >There doesn't seem to be a "reliable" method for determining whether or
>   >not you are in an xterm. Any method so far suggested has "natural"
>   >configuration situations that break the method.
> 
> When you start an xterm, TERM is set to xterm; why not test for that?
> The trouble with using different executables is that they will only
> get run when the user chooses.  I have found ae popping up unexpectedly
> after I have removed elvis.  Because I didn't choose to load it, it came
> up in its default state.

When you remove the last vi alternative, ae is run by a script in /bin
with the ae2vi.rc file. The current release is broken in this reguard, but
the next one will be fixed to continue to emulate vi.

> 
> If someone manages to get an xterm where TERM is set to something different,
> it won't work, but it seems a bit unreasonable for anyone to do such
> a thing.
> 
Although the xterm does set itself up with TERM=xterm, there are any
number of reasons for the TERM variable to be changed (vt100 comes to
mind for various telnet targets), which makes this an unreliable way to
deal with this.

What would be wrong with having the "non-x" ae tell you in the help screen
what you need to run to get xterm support? The need for this xterm support
comes from folks who want to administer a base system remotely from a
system using an xterm. This is a fairly restricted set of folks who should
be "clued" enough to deal with the help message.

Ya think?

Dwarf
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aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
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Re: ppp: how to tell the connection speed?

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 12:13:35PM -0600, Marcelo E. Magallon wrote:
> > BTW has anyone else run across a modem that reports 'CARRIER' instead of
> > 'CONNECT'?
> 
> My very first modem did that. But we are talking 1988 (whoa! it's been
> long) here and that was an El Cheapo 2400

I think most Rockwell chipsets can do that.  Part of a 4-5 line report of
the connection info.  Quite verbose actually.


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Re: Coming to closure on ae...

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 11:42:39PM +0200, Oliver Elphick wrote:
>   >There doesn't seem to be a "reliable" method for determining whether or
>   >not you are in an xterm. Any method so far suggested has "natural"
>   >configuration situations that break the method.
> 
> When you start an xterm, TERM is set to xterm; why not test for that?

Test $DISPLAY, it's the Right Way to test for X.

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