RSync

[Jason Gunthorpe]

Are there any alternatives to rsync that don't use as much memory?

andrew   21911  0.6 19.5 24596 12252  ?  S12:05   1:49 rsync 

That's prettty high (and I've seen higher).. I think I will email the
author.

Jason


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Dependencies problem

[Eloy A. Paris]

Hi,

my package ncpfs provides a shared library (libncp). When trying to
build using dpkg-buildpackage, debstd gives several errors about not
being able to find dependencies for the binaries in the package. The
problem goes away if I provide a shlibs.local file like this:

libncp  1   ncpfs (>= 2.0.11-6)

However, if I do this the dependencies of my packages will be:

Depends: ipx, libc6, libcomerr2, ncpfs (>= 2.0.11-6)
 ^

Is this right, a package that depends on itself? How can remedy this
situation? The package installs fine, though...

Thanks in advance.

E.-

-- 

Eloy A. Paris
Information Technology Department
Rockwell Automation Venezuela
Telephone: +58-2-9432311 Fax: +58-2-9431645


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Re: Time to say goodbye...

[Craig Sanders]

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Michael Meskes wrote:

> Jim Pick writes:
> > I must admit, I've been entirely negligent in following the policy
> > discussions - due to lack of time, I've skipped them entirely.
> 
> Me too.
> 
> > I suspect that most of the other "older" maintainers are the same way
> > - they've skipped the policy discussions altogether - which would
> > explain your perceived lack of support.
> 
> Yes. This holds for me too.

me too.

(ordinarily, i wouldn't make a "me too" post but i think it's important
for Christian to see that he does have support and that we do appreciate
the work he's done)

craig

--
craig sanders


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Re: bug #21739 - xfstt -- comments?

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:28:20AM -0400, Stephen Carpenter wrote:
> I have been working on the xfstt package to take it over. Until a few
> days ago there was only one bug of "Wishlist" priority filed against
> it which is now ready to close as soon as I am able to upload
> files (ie am finished registering as a debian package maintainer et al)
> It now makes a pid file in var run like a "good little deamon" and can
> be started
> and stoped form a scipt in /etc/init.d
> however this new bug has been reported...and I am looking for comments
> about how to fix this one.

Cool..  I haven't even looked at the source to this thing so I don't know if
it can be done, but Mozilla can't tell any TTfonts are fixed width..  I
didn't file a bug report because I don't know that it's something that is
Mozilla, xfstt, both, or if it could be fixed..


> The new bug states the xfstt keeping the true type fonts in /var/ttfonts
> is
> a violation of both the FHS and the FSSTND
> I agree with this...now that I think about it...this IS a violation
> (unfortunatly...bad news...I lost my printed copy of the FHS and the
> FSSTND
> I will be printing up new copies soon tho)
> any thoughts on wher ethe true type fonts should go?
> what would be a good directory for them?

I'd agree with the upstream author and use /usr/lib/X11R6/fonts/ttf
probably.


pgpoflFEojoov.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Trying to contact wrl@gandalf.wconsult.com

[Raul Miller]

I'm having a problem sending mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED],
the host name doesn't have an MX record, and appears to have
a dynamic ip address.  The mail relay being used
(mail.rdu.bellsouth.net) also doesn't appear to know anything
about this host name.

-- 
Raul


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Re: not knowing where to send this.....

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 01:52:25AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> > I expect that everyone who has sent email to debian-devel this
> > weekend will have been unsubscribed.
> 
> [Er... probably not everyone: the "too many bounces" mechanism
> probably won't knock off people who posted just a few times.]

Just the big mouths like me...  =>


pgpsZe2MMJWsR.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Uploaded less 332-2.1 (source i386) to master

[Darren/Torin/Who Ever...]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Joel Klecker, in an immanent manifestation of deity, wrote:
> less (332-2.1) frozen unstable; urgency=high
> .
>   * Non-maintainer release.

I had thought I had uploaded this but I don't see it anywhere on
master.  I guess it was part of the master problem?  Expect 332-3
momentarily.

Darren
- -- 
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PROTECTED]>
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Bl7iL+pl+rc1aTt1/vKZBfPZx/aNsD51IsNlpfwLZ2EslaLq8IMhks5lpUcAxgHg
a0niaFt4fTQ0ylNTDM/x9JAUGc36ugxzU5bxEDUwVVMQ32S+YFDEKWh+KfCRoDfE
ZTyXXs8AHKw=
=w2eT
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Bug#20914: seyon package copyright (fwd)

[Dale Scheetz]

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Raul Miller wrote:

> Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It seems to me that we have accepted non-modified source as DFSG compliant
> > as long as modified binaries are not restricted.
> 
> We allow exceptions to point 3, as long as point 4 is satisfied
> (explicit permission to distribute software built from
> modified sources).
> 
Yes, the fact that there was no explicit permission to distribute modified
binaries was what I found problematic as well.

Luck,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

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Re: Bug#20914: seyon package copyright (fwd)

[Raul Miller]

Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It seems to me that we have accepted non-modified source as DFSG compliant
> as long as modified binaries are not restricted.

We allow exceptions to point 3, as long as point 4 is satisfied
(explicit permission to distribute software built from
modified sources).

http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html#guidelines

-- 
Raul


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Re: Apt is cool (yay!) - What about bo?

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Jules Bean wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> Just installed apt_0.0.8.  My impression is that it is significantly faster
> than dpkg-ftp.  Could be pyschological, though ;)

No, it probably is. It advoids alot of the time consuming steps, read the
status file faster, and with HTTP downloads faster too. I don't think we
loose any of the safty of that dpkg-ftp had either.

Jason


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Re: Bug#20914: seyon package copyright (fwd)

[Dale Scheetz]

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Raul Miller wrote:

> Steve McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm happy that we can work with this license, as we distribute diffs.
> > Thomas thinks otherwise. Thoughts?
> 
> This license conflicts with point 3 of DFSG.  We can't distribute
> modified versions under the same terms as the original.
> 
I understand your concern here, but there is no restriction against
distributing modified binary, only modified source.

It seems to me that we have accepted non-modified source as DFSG compliant
as long as modified binaries are not restricted.

The license makes specific statements about what you can do (as well as
what you can,t) and yet does not explicitly declare modified binaries to
be acceptable. Is this what is bothering you too, Raul?

I tend to be as flexible as possible when reading such documents, which is
not always the way to arrive at the "legal" requirements.

I would be happier if the author made it clear what the rules are for
modified binary distribution. If there is clarification of this issue, I
don't have any difficulty viewing the license as DFSG compliant.

Luck,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

_-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_-


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Re: Bug#20914: seyon package copyright (fwd)

[Raul Miller]

Steve McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm happy that we can work with this license, as we distribute diffs.
> Thomas thinks otherwise. Thoughts?

This license conflicts with point 3 of DFSG.  We can't distribute
modified versions under the same terms as the original.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Bug#20914: seyon package copyright (fwd)

[Steve McIntyre]

[ Forwarded to debian-devel to see what other people think. ]

The copyright for seyon says:

==

  Seyon is Copyright (c) 1992 of Muhammad M. Saggaf. Seyon is not
  public domain. Permission is granted to use and distribute Seyon
  freely for any use and to sell it at any price without reference to
  the copyright owner provided that in all above cases Seyon is intact
  and is not made part of any program either in whole or in part and
  that this copyright notice is included with Seyon. Permission is
  also granted to modify the source as long as the modified source is
  not distributed.

==

I'm happy that we can work with this license, as we distribute diffs.
Thomas thinks otherwise. Thoughts?

-- 
Steve McIntyre, CURS CCE, Cambridge, UK. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I sent ten dollars to death.net and all I got was... well, nothing.
"Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky, +--
"Tongue-tied & twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I..."  |Finger for PGP key

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:22:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: "T.E.Dickey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Steve McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bug#20914: seyon package copyright

> Why not? I still don't see a problem. We do not change the upstream source 
> and then distribute it... 
(I've been here before):
you're packaging it (original sources & fixes) together as seyon.


-- 
Thomas E. Dickey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.clark.net/pub/dickey


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Re: Packages marked as Obsolete

[James Troup]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>  *** interpre Opt blt2 2.1-6
>   

Superseded by blt4.2, presumably.

>  *** non-free Xtr ckermit  192-5
>   

In project/orphaned, don't know why.  Seems to be missing a .tar.gz
though.

>  *** soundOpt chord3.6.1-1.1
>   
>  *** graphics Opt picon-usenix 1995.04.13-  
>   
>  *** gamesOpt xinvaders2.0-8
>   

Moved to project/oprhaned/ due to unanswered copyright problems.

>  *** non-free Opt dmalloc1 3.2.1-2  
>   
>  *** non-free Opt dmalloc1-dev 3.2.1-2  
>   

Superseded by dmalloc.

>  *** net  Opt epic4pre1.041-1   
>   
>  *** x11  Opt gnome0.12-1   
>   
>  *** x11  Opt gnome-icons  0.12-1   
>   
>  *** develOpt gnome-dev0.12-1   
>   
>  *** net  Xtr iproute  980119-1 
>   
>  *** oldlibs  Opt mesa22.5-2
>   
>  *** contrib/ Opt xephem-smoti 3.0-1
>   
>  *** contrib/ Opt wdb  1.5dm-b5.4-  
>   

Removed, orphaned or moved to unstable at the request of the
maintainer for various reasons.

>  *** math Opt freelip  1.0-3
>   
>  *** interpre Opt gcl-doc  2.2.1-2  
>   
>  *** libs Opt gstep-base0  0.2.12-2 
>   
>  *** misc Opt lee  1.1-3
>   

Old Karl Sackett packages, in project/orphaned/.

>  *** soundOpt gom-x0.29.10-1.1  
>   
>  *** develOpt libp2c1  1.20-2.3 
>   
>  *** libs Opt libfcgi2 2.0b2-1  
>   
>  *** libs Opt libtclobjc1  1.1b6-1  
>   
>  *** non-free Opt pari 1.39.03-7
>   
>  *** non-free Opt paridoc  1.39.03-7
>   
>  *** non-free Opt povray-lib   3.0.20-5 
>   
>  *** non-free Opt scilabdoc2.2-4
>   
>  *** x11  Opt tkdesk   1.0b4-2.1
>   
>  *** utilsOpt wordnet  1.5-3
>   
>  *** utilsOpt wordnetbase  1.5-1
>   
>  *** utilsOpt wordnetdoc   1.5-3
>   

Moved to project/orphaned by Brian, probably due to copyright file
absences.  A lot of these were orphaned badly, i.e. only one package
of a multi-binary source packages was removed.

>  *** adminXtr grub 0.4-1
>   

Moved to experimental.

>  *** ??   libpng1  0.89c-6  
>   

Obsolete, superseded by libpng0 (sic), which in turn is superseded by
libpng2.

>  *** contrib/ Opt picon-news   1998.02.24-  
>   
>  *** contrib/ Opt picon-unknow 1998.02.06-  
>   
>  *** contrib/ Opt picon-weathe 1998.01.11-  
>   
>  *** contrib/ Xtr picon-misc   1998.02.06-  
>   

Removed by Brian, I think.  Should be in non-free anyway, if they
reappear in contrib, an `important' bug will follow.

>  *** libs Opt regex0g  0.12-5   
>   
>  *** develOpt regex0g-dev  0.12-5   
>   

200% obsolete.  libc6 already includes regex, regex0g is superfluous.

>  *** oldlibs  Opt regex0   0.12-5   
>   

Renamed to libregex0.

>  *** ??   sambades 1.9.17p2-1

Replaced by samba, IIRC.

>  *** gamesOpt xtet42   2.02-8   
>   

Moved to some `Dead' directory in master, I can't remember the
location of offhand.  Copyright renders it undistributable IIRC.

>  *** tex  Opt latex2rtf1.1-6
>   
>  *** web  Opt cgiemail 1.2-3
>   

No idea.

-- 
James


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../dists/slink/main/binary-i386/Packages is empty

[Douglas Bates]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I have been away for a
week and off the list.  I notice that the Packages file for
slink/main/binary-i386 is empty whereas binary-alpha, binary-powerpc,
and binary-sparc all look as I would expect them to.  Is this a subtle
hint that I should switch architectures?  :-)


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Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Kai Henningsen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Manoj Srivastava)  wrote on 03.05.98 in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> >>"Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented
> >> MTA bar none!

Raul>> Please don't confuse lots of documentation for well documented.

>   In my opinion, sendmail is well documented *and* has lots of
>  documentation. I also fail to find sendmail.cf obfuscatory -- but
>  then, I have been writing sendmail.cf files since 1992.

Rewrote a sendmail.cf from scratch (witout any help from m4) in the  
eighties. Still think it's the most confusing MTA config I've ever seen.

Smail was about what I wanted while battling sendmail. And Exim is Smail  
done right.

Raul>> In fact, a useful documentation tactic is to alter the program
Raul>> to make it easier to document.

>   Are you saying this has happened to exim? or qmail? or
>  sendmail? or is it just a general statement?

Well, you _could_ argue that this is the Smail -> Exim step. But I don't  
really care.

Sure, Exim can do a lot, but most stuff is really easy to do.


MfG Kai


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Re: Packages marked as Obsolete

[Michael Meskes]

Manoj Srivastava writes:
>  picons packages (why are they marked obsolete)? What about ckermit?

Yes, I need a kermit, too.

>  *** ??   sambades 1.9.17p2-1

This one is really obsolete since samba contains the relevant code now.

Michael

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Intention to package UMB-Scheme

[Fulgham, Brent/SCO]

Does anyone object if I package UMB-Scheme (yet another scheme
distribution...).  This package is needed if you want to play with much
of the Gnome-Project stuff...

-Brent

> -Original Message-
> From: Dirk Eddelbuettel [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 9:53 AM
> To:   Debian Developer; Mike Deisher
> Subject:  Intention to adopt auto-pgp
> 
> 
> The auto-pgp package has been touched since November 1995, and has
> currently
> seven open bugs filed against it. 
> 
> If nobody objects, I will adopt auto-pgpt by uploading a version which
> corrects the 7 bugs and updates the package from Debian 1.1 to Debian
> 2.0
> standards.
> 
> -- 
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  According to the latest official
> figures, 
> http://rosebud.ml.org/~edd  43% of all statistics are totally
> worthless.
> 
> 
> --
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Intention to adopt auto-pgp

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

The auto-pgp package has been touched since November 1995, and has currently
seven open bugs filed against it. 

If nobody objects, I will adopt auto-pgpt by uploading a version which
corrects the 7 bugs and updates the package from Debian 1.1 to Debian 2.0
standards.

-- 
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Re: dpkb-buildpackage errors

[Enrique Zanardi]

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 04:35:28PM +0200, Javier Fdz-Sanguino Pen~a wrote:
>   Anybody knows why dpkg-buildpackage jumps with a:
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp/hello/hello-1.3# dpkg-buildpackage
> no utmp entry available, using value of LOGNAME ("root") at
> /usr/lib/dpkg/controllib.pl line 16.
> parsechangelog/debian: error: unable to open substvars file
> debian/substvars: No existe el fichero o el directorio
> dpkg-buildpackage: cannot determine name of current package
> 
> I may have missed some policy modifications, but I am surprised to see
> that hello (hamm's) doesn't work with dpkg-dev. 
> It seems dpkb-buildpacakge tries to find debian/substvars and it dies when
> it doesn't, I though this file was optional.
> 
>   Suggestions? Comments??

It's a known bug in dpkg-buildpackage. You are using the es_ES locale,
and some script run from dpkg-buildpackage (parsechangelog, IIRC) doesn't
like that. The error message is bogus. Try running dpkg-buildpackage as:
LANG=C dpkg-buildpackage

--
Enrique Zanardi[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Bug#21969: debian-policy: needs clarification about Standards-Version

[Raul Miller]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   You suddenly seem to be arguing that policy never be amended
>  since we may just be screwing it up.

Er... no.  Not even close.

Later,

-- 
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Re: Bug#21969: debian-policy: needs clarification about Standards-Version

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul> The issue isn't trust.  The issue is understanding.

I think I am willing to give new maintainers the benfit of
 doubt as to whether they can excercise enough judgment to know if
 they understand a subject well enough to go and try to amend
 policy. In a sense, then, this is a kind of trust, a trust that the
 new guys are not off the wall and won't pepper the plicy list with
 frivoulous amendment attempts. 

>> Length of time with Debian is a poor metric of competence.

Raul> True.

Raul> However, there's a lot of documentation you must digest before
Raul> you understand how to do a debian package, and how a debian
Raul> system is supposed to work.

Raul> And, we're going to get beginning programmers who also want to
Raul> help us out.  Or, more generally, we'll get people who can offer
Raul> some incredible insights in some areas, while being largely
Raul> unaware of other areas.

I fail to see the problem. They file a bug report. People on
 the list discuss it, and let the new maintainer know the
 fallacy. Possibly a rationale is added to the policy documents so it
 is easier to understand. 

I think that objecting to the statement that Budha Buck made
 on these grounds is being overtly paranoid, and slightly insulting to
 new maintainers.

Raul> After we figure out how and why, yes. If we make the imperative
Raul> to modify policy really strong, and just plain ignore our goals
Raul> for the project, I can see this turning into a real mess.
>>  What do you mean by that? How can having a policy that conforms to
>> correct behaviour be against the goals of the project?

Raul> The risk is that we'll apply spot fixes which make other
Raul> problems worse.

I think you do us a disservice here. And, anyway, there is no
 escaping this. We can alsways make decisions that are bad in the long
 run. Unless you have a reliable crystal ball, this is impossible to
 avoid. 

Raul> Just as software can wind up hacked up and garbled, when people
Raul> go in and "fix" problems without really thinking about the
Raul> design, so can policy. If you don't know [in simple terms] how
Raul> the whole thing is supposed to work, this is a very big risk.

You suddenly seem to be arguing that policy never be amended
 since we may just be screwing it up. If we can't depend on the wisdom
 of the people on the mailing list, or in the project in general, we
 may as well give up on systems integration and take up knitting. 


Raul> I'm going to try to draft up an introduction to the policy
Raul> manual, that at least touches on the points I think are
Raul> important.

I think that should be a separate document, to be ratified
 under the proposals of the constitution. Policy should remain a set
 of technical dos and don't. Anything other than that should be
 considered for removal from the policy.

Anything else shall be overloading the purpose of the policy
 documents. Maybe we should rename the current set "The *TECHNICAL*
 policy documents", and let non-technical policy be drafted and
 ratified. 

manoj

-- 
 If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then
 the first woodpecker that came along would destroy
 civilization. Gerald Weinberg (sysop's note: bull)
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


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Re: dpkb-buildpackage errors

[Shaleh]

This may not be your problem, but when I get this error it means I am in
the debian/ directory and not in the root of the package.  i.e

imlib-1.3/debian instead of imlib-1.3.  Or in some other subdirectory. 
When the builder statrs it looks in ./debian/{changelog,rules,control}
so if you are in debian it becomes debian/debian wich is wrong.


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Re: bug #21739 - xfstt -- comments?

[Shaleh]

what about /usr/share/ttf or /usr/share/ttfonts.  My understanding is
that /usr/share is for any architecture independent data.  This seems
appropriate.


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dpkb-buildpackage errors

[Javier Fdz-Sanguino Pen~a]

Anybody knows why dpkg-buildpackage jumps with a:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp/hello/hello-1.3# dpkg-buildpackage
no utmp entry available, using value of LOGNAME ("root") at 
/usr/lib/dpkg/controllib.pl line
16.
parsechangelog/debian: error: unable to open substvars file debian/substvars: 
No existe el
fichero o el directorio
dpkg-buildpackage: cannot determine name of current package

I may have missed some policy modifications, but I am surprised to see 
that
hello (hamm's) doesn't work with dpkg-dev. 
It seems dpkb-buildpacakge tries to find debian/substvars and it dies 
when
it doesn't, I though this file was optional.

Suggestions? Comments??

Javi


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Re: Copyright of fontinst.

[Santiago Vila]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Federico Di Gregorio wrote:

> Hi,
>   some time ago I expressed the intent to package fontinst
> (a TeX/LaTeX package). I asked the author about the licence
> and here's what I got. It is not DFSG but we *do* have latex
> in tetex. So is it right for main? Thanx, federico.
> 
> - Forwarded message -
> 
> The fontinst package is distributed under the same
> restrictions as LaTeX, ie it should be distributed unchanged.

Not all of LaTeX in teTeX have this restrictive license.
That's why part of it have been moved to tetex-nonfree in non-free.

I think most of LaTeX is covered by the special DFSG condition
"The license may require derived works to carry a different name or
version number from the original software.".

If this applies to fontinst, then it would be ok for main. If it just
forbids derived works, not even under a different name, it surely would
not.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: latin1

iQCVAgUBNU3fRiqK7IlOjMLFAQHJuAQAkVlzPlDeUJnEd9EU6L6YI0a+ALz0ZD9h
niepHR9xjbqOQjdmT0ILvHmOFxmqz2PEw0BRIcQlSbOKPu4ld0fJGObwhh23yRlZ
SIGJ3VsDZ7Ngvlfmrcfb9uDAVuNe2AZHSdZjlbltD3XtqOOBqoAu33AkHej0qpNE
eNvUc+gbwH4=
=7Qbr
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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bug #21739 - xfstt -- comments?

[Stephen Carpenter]

I have been working on the xfstt package to take it over. Until a few
days ago there was only one bug of "Wishlist" priority filed against
it which is now ready to close as soon as I am able to upload
files (ie am finished registering as a debian package maintainer et al)
It now makes a pid file in var run like a "good little deamon" and can
be started
and stoped form a scipt in /etc/init.d
however this new bug has been reported...and I am looking for comments
about how to fix this one.
The new bug states the xfstt keeping the true type fonts in /var/ttfonts
is
a violation of both the FHS and the FSSTND
I agree with this...now that I think about it...this IS a violation
(unfortunatly...bad news...I lost my printed copy of the FHS and the
FSSTND
I will be printing up new copies soon tho)
any thoughts on wher ethe true type fonts should go?
what would be a good directory for them?
I e-mailed the upstream author and he said:

> Check out the new --dir option. Maybe the best place would be near
> the other X11 fonts: /usr/X11R6/lib/fonts/ttf, but I'm sure this
> would cause a bit confusion for some users who would put this
> directory into their fontpath.
>
So any ideas (he is planning to leave the upstream source as keeping it
in
/usr/ttfonts ...right now I would say our version uses choe the lesser
evil)
where ould be a good place for fonts that woul dnot (hopefully) confuse
users too much?
Once I decide maybe I shoul dput a check in the preinst that will detect

the /var/ttfonts and move it to the new place (shoul dthat step require
user interaction???)
your ideas and comments are apreciated
-Steve
--
PGP Key at: http://www.gis.net/~sjc/pgp.asc
(BTW Thanx allot Noah for pointing out why putting my pgp key here was
a bad idea...now I hafta find a new funny quote or something for here)
"Ummm, me make *one* change. Stone hot so me soak in stream so
stone not burn Lorto hand. Small change, shoul dnot keep Lorto from
make Fire."



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Re: Intent to package Xswallow

[Jules Bean]

--On Mon, May 4, 1998 4:09 pm +0200 "Javier Fdz-Sanguino Pen~a"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

> On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:43:00PM +0100, Jules Bean wrote:
>> 
>> I assume the point is that it will only execute applications listed in
>> /etc/mailcap, which is fine.

[chomp]

>   It doesn't touch /etc/mailcap (although it could be modified to do so),
as it
> provides its own mime/types-->application configuration file.
> 
>   Javi

Hmm...

Who's in charge of mime-support?

Lynx uses /etc/mailcap, does it not? (Yes it does, I just checked with
strace).

Although the names of these files are starting to look a little foolish, I
should have thought that we would want xswallow to behave like lynx does
with embed's and inlines...

Comments?

Jules

/+---+-\
|  Jelibean aka  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  6 Evelyn Rd|
|  Jules aka |   |  Richmond, Surrey   |
|  Julian Bean   | [EMAIL PROTECTED]|  TW9 2TF *UK*   |
++---+-+
|  War doesn't demonstrate who's right... just who's left. |
|  When privacy is outlawed... only the outlaws have privacy.  |
\--/



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Re: Intent to package Xswallow

[Javier Fdz-Sanguino Pen~a]

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:43:00PM +0100, Jules Bean wrote:
> 
> I assume the point is that it will only execute applications listed in
> /etc/mailcap, which is fine.
> 
> He didn't provide a URL, so I can't check..
> 
> Jules
> 
> 

Sorry, I forgot. Im putting up a checksite at
ftp://dat.etsit.upm.es/pub/WWW/packages/Xswallow
the original site is:
http://skynet.csnl.ul.ie/~caolan/docs/Xswallow.html


There you go!

It doesn't touch /etc/mailcap (although it could be modified to do so), 
as it
provides its own mime/types-->application configuration file.

Javi


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Re: Bug#21969: debian-policy: needs clarification about Standards-Version

[Raul Miller]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Raul> You honestly think this is good enough for new developers?  I
> Raul> must confess that I'm not really in touch with the sort of
> Raul> things they would think.
> 
>   Of course. You gotta trust people some time. I think we give
>  folks the benefit of doubt. It is not as if anyone could
>  silently ignore policy -- they are supposed to file a bug
>  against policy, which shall submit their ideas to peer review on this
>  list.

The issue isn't trust.  The issue is understanding.

>   Length of time with Debian is a poor metric of competence.

True.

However, there's a lot of documentation you must digest before
you understand how to do a debian package, and how a debian
system is supposed to work.

And, we're going to get beginning programmers who also want to help us
out.  Or, more generally, we'll get people who can offer some incredible
insights in some areas, while being largely unaware of other areas.

>   We cannot legislate against flamage, unfortunately. It is my
>  hope that we give people the benefit of doubt and at least one chance
>  before jumping on them. It is also my hope that we can refrain from
>  jumping on people who are, wth the best of intentions, trying to
>  help. 

I'd hope for this, too. But, the way this discussion was going, I wasn't
so sure this would remain a possibility.

>  As to reporting errors in policy, all one has to do is file a bug
>  report against policy, send a CC to debian-policy mailing list
>  (asking to be kept on the cc list if one is not subscribed there),
>  and log the policy volation in the changelog of any package that is
>  going to ignore policy -- Hmm, this is not so bad, is it? This is not
>  an event that happens everyday (I hope), so once in a blue moon one
>  can send a message, wth a CC field, and record it in the changelog,
>  if any.

The debian-policy list should get email for all reports filed against
policy. This suggests to me that there should be a maintainer address
for policy, and that it should be set up so debian-policy always gets a
copy.

> Raul> We can't come up with a specific set of tests, no.  We can have
> Raul> a set of general goals which help focus people's attention on
> Raul> the hot spots.
> 
>   Really? Why can't we insterad examine those hot-spots in the
>  policy document and try to elimeinate them? 

Er... I'm didn't mean to imply we can't. Also, I should have said
"We can't come up with a specific set of tests that cover all the
possibilities."

But there's something very different from handling a specific case
(which is good and important) from handling the general case (which
is also good and important).

> >> In any case, the Policy documents should be amended so that the
> >> rest of the maintainers benefit from it as well.
> 
> Raul> After we figure out how and why, yes. If we make the imperative
> Raul> to modify policy really strong, and just plain ignore our goals
> Raul> for the project, I can see this turning into a real mess.
> 
>   What do you mean by that? How can having a policy that conforms
>  to correct behaviour be against the goals of the project?

The risk is that we'll apply spot fixes which make other problems worse.

Just as software can wind up hacked up and garbled, when people go in
and "fix" problems without really thinking about the design, so can
policy. If you don't know [in simple terms] how the whole thing is
supposed to work, this is a very big risk.

Sometimes people just give up and try to do a complete rewrite, when
the situation gets too bad.

So, anyways, we have the DFSG and the social contract, and we have
FSSTD/FHS, and we probably have around, somewhere, the original goals
for debian. I'm suggesting we need something analogous to DFSG for
technical issues outside the scope of FHS. I used to think that this is
the policy manual. But the more I think about it, the less certain I am.

I'm going to try to draft up an introduction to the policy manual,
that at least touches on the points I think are important.

Later,

-- 
Raul


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Re: Intent to package Xswallow

[Javier Fdz-Sanguino Pen~a]

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:22:42PM +0100, Martin Read wrote:
> Javier Fernandez-Sanguino Pen~a writes:

> This sounds distressingly like a serious security hole - unless it refuses
> requests resembling "xterm -e foo".  It's not quite as bad as "xhost +",
> I'll admit, but it does sound like a major risk nevertheless.
> 
> > I have tried it with Netscape 3.0 and 4.0b5 (not with Mozilla yet :( )
> > it can be found as a RedHat package so I intend to use this first for the
> > first release. BTW it is GPL'd.
> 
> Martin

As a matter of fact I will only launch applications associated with
/etc/mime.types and configured in an installed file (xswallow.conf en 
/usr/lib/netscape).

So it *may* be a security hole, but just if you allow it as many other
things :)

Javi


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Kenneth . Scharf]

>I'm collecting names of those who have either emailled me or mentioned
>interest in seeing Debian a little easier on the novice user (but without
>getting annoying to the experienced user!) and will be in the next day or
>two trying to see if maybe we can get some projects organized to make
Debian
>and Linux in general a little more friendly.  The net result is that the
>above games dist and my mini-show-off-the-power-of-linux dist will be
>possible.  Just build base-files and floppies.  The rest is already in
>debian.

>I don't think many people mind a few unofficial debian dists that meet
needs
>Debian doesn't quite fill.  Of course, with such a diverse group, I'm
>probably wrong, but I'll take my chances this time.  =>

YES!!  I think maybe this is what Bruce should have been thinking.

I also will plug again for an Amateur Radio specific distribution. (IE:
AX2.5, RTTY, SSTV, log, contest, CAD S/W etc).  And yes when I come up to
speed on my own debian system (I'm going to install GTK / GHOME / GIMP and
see about porting my MFC knowledge to X) I'll try to write some of this
stuff.

PS my home email is [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Packages marked as Obsolete

[Martin Schulze]

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 09:44:41AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Hi,
>   While we are talking about obsolete packages, what is the
>  story on these? I mean, I would not like to just remove all the
>  picons packages (why are they marked obsolete)? What about ckermit?
>  How many of these are actually obsolete, and how many just have been
>  yanked from hamm?
> 
>  *** soundOpt gom-x0.29.10-1.1  
>   

The maintainer has posted something abuot this a few days ago.

>  *** utilsOpt wordnet  1.5-3
>   
>  *** utilsOpt wordnetbase  1.5-1
>   

Andreas Tille maintains wordnet.  His maintainer registration
unfortunately got stalled due to severe problems on pgp.net.

>  *** utilsOpt wordnetdoc   1.5-3
>   


>  *** x11  Opt tkdesk   1.0b4-2.1
>   

We have a new maintainer for it, I just always forget who
it is.  There's also a new version of tkdesk.  Found him, he's
Daniel Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Regards,

Joey

-- 
  / Martin Schulze  *  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  *  26129 Oldenburg /
 / http://home.pages.de/~joey/
/  Unable to locate coffee, operator halted.  -- Stefan Farsch  /


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Re: Intent to package Xswallow

[Stephen Carpenter]

Martin Read wrote:

> Javier Fernandez-Sanguino Pen~a writes:
> >   Xswallow is a plugin for Netscape that allows ANY X-based application
> > tu run inside Netscape. This allows you to run a VRML browser 
> > (vrwave,vrweb..) or
> > a midi application inside Netscape without having to expressely save to disk
> > and then run it aside. It works with  tags and /etc/mime.types.
>
> This sounds distressingly like a serious security hole - unless it refuses
> requests resembling "xterm -e foo".  It's not quite as bad as "xhost +",
> I'll admit, but it does sound like a major risk nevertheless.

I don't know...I think it would really depend on how it is implimented...as I 
remember
the embed tag itgoes like this:

I supose if it was pointed at a cgi rather than a file...and the cgi gave it a 
specific

mime type it could be interpreted and run an aplication such that it would do
something nasty/but how is this differnt from a mail program that uses
mime types?
IMHO if a program will accept a file on its command line and then do something
nasty (ie replace/delete files) without any user interaction...then
maybe the security violation is listing it in mime types in the first place

> >   I have tried it with Netscape 3.0 and 4.0b5 (not with Mozilla yet :( )
> > it can be found as a RedHat package so I intend to use this first for the
> > first release. BTW it is GPL'd.

SOunds great to me :) can't wait to try it-Steve

--
PGP Key at: http://www.gis.net/~sjc/pgp.asc
(BTW Thanx allot Noah for pointing out why putting my pgp key here was
a bad idea...now I hafta find a new funny quote or something for here)
"Ummm, me make *one* change. Stone hot so me soak in stream so
stone not burn Lorto hand. Small change, shoul dnot keep Lorto from
make Fire."



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Packages marked as Obsolete

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
While we are talking about obsolete packages, what is the
 story on these? I mean, I would not like to just remove all the
 picons packages (why are they marked obsolete)? What about ckermit?
 How many of these are actually obsolete, and how many just have been
 yanked from hamm?

--- Obsolete and local packages present on system ---   
 *** adminXtr grub 0.4-1  
 *** contrib/ Opt picon-news   1998.02.24-
 *** contrib/ Opt picon-unknow 1998.02.06-
 *** contrib/ Opt picon-weathe 1998.01.11-
 *** contrib/ Xtr picon-misc   1998.02.06-
 *** contrib/ Opt xephem-smoti 3.0-1  
 *** contrib/ Opt wdb  1.5dm-b5.4-
 *** develOpt gnome-dev0.12-1 
 *** develOpt libp2c1  1.20-2.3   
 *** develOpt regex0g-dev  0.12-5 
 *** gamesOpt xinvaders2.0-8  
 *** gamesOpt xtet42   2.02-8 
 *** graphics Opt picon-usenix 1995.04.13-
 *** interpre Opt blt2 2.1-6  
 *** interpre Opt gcl-doc  2.2.1-2
 *** libs Opt gstep-base0  0.2.12-2   
 *** libs Opt libfcgi2 2.0b2-1
 *** libs Opt libtclobjc1  1.1b6-1
 *** libs Opt regex0g  0.12-5 
 *** math Opt freelip  1.0-3  
 *** misc Opt lee  1.1-3  
 *** net  Opt epic4pre1.041-1 
 *** net  Xtr iproute  980119-1   
 *** non-free Xtr ckermit  192-5  
 *** non-free Opt dmalloc1 3.2.1-2
 *** non-free Opt dmalloc1-dev 3.2.1-2
 *** non-free Opt povray-lib   3.0.20-5   
 *** non-free Opt pari 1.39.03-7  
 *** non-free Opt paridoc  1.39.03-7  
 *** non-free Opt scilabdoc2.2-4  
 *** oldlibs  Opt mesa22.5-2  
 *** oldlibs  Opt regex0   0.12-5 
 *** soundOpt chord3.6.1-1.1  
 *** soundOpt gom-x0.29.10-1.1
 *** tex  Opt latex2rtf1.1-6  
 *** utilsOpt wordnet  1.5-3  
 *** utilsOpt wordnetbase  1.5-1  
 *** utilsOpt wordnetdoc   1.5-3  
 *** web  Opt cgiemail 1.2-3  
 *** x11  Opt gnome0.12-1 
 *** x11  Opt gnome-icons  0.12-1 
 *** x11  Opt tkdesk   1.0b4-2.1  
 *** ??   libpng1  0.89c-6
 *** ??   sambades 1.9.17p2-1

manoj

-- 
 Though one were to live a hundred years without wisdom and with a
 mind unstilled by meditation, the life of a single day is better if
 one is wise and practises meditation. 111
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


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Re: Apt is cool (yay!) - What about bo?

[Jules Bean]

--On Mon, May 4, 1998 3:39 pm +0100 "James Troup" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 

> "Jules Bean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> Should the first two have been "Replaces: "'ed by their successors?
> 
> Package: timezones
> [...]
> Conflicts: timezone
> Replaces: timezone
> 
> Package: locales
> [...]
> Conflicts: localebin, wg15-locale
> Replaces: localebin, wg15-locale

Ouch!

My FUD...

I must have got confused by the dependencies when I made the big hamm
upgrade.

Sorry,

Jules

[Thanks James :)]

/+---+-\
|  Jelibean aka  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  6 Evelyn Rd|
|  Jules aka |   |  Richmond, Surrey   |
|  Julian Bean   | [EMAIL PROTECTED]|  TW9 2TF *UK*   |
++---+-+
|  War doesn't demonstrate who's right... just who's left. |
|  When privacy is outlawed... only the outlaws have privacy.  |
\--/



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Re: Intent to package Xswallow

[Jules Bean]

--On Mon, May 4, 1998 3:22 pm +0100 "Martin Read"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

> Javier Fernandez-Sanguino Pen~a writes:
>>  Xswallow is a plugin for Netscape that allows ANY X-based application
>> tu run inside Netscape. This allows you to run a VRML browser
(vrwave,vrweb..) or
>> a midi application inside Netscape without having to expressely save to
disk
>> and then run it aside. It works with  tags and /etc/mime.types.
> 
> This sounds distressingly like a serious security hole - unless it refuses
> requests resembling "xterm -e foo".  It's not quite as bad as "xhost +",
> I'll admit, but it does sound like a major risk nevertheless.

I assume the point is that it will only execute applications listed in
/etc/mailcap, which is fine.

He didn't provide a URL, so I can't check..

Jules


/+---+-\
|  Jelibean aka  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  6 Evelyn Rd|
|  Jules aka |   |  Richmond, Surrey   |
|  Julian Bean   | [EMAIL PROTECTED]|  TW9 2TF *UK*   |
++---+-+
|  War doesn't demonstrate who's right... just who's left. |
|  When privacy is outlawed... only the outlaws have privacy.  |
\--/



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Re: Apt is cool (yay!) - What about bo?

[Jules Bean]

--On Mon, May 4, 1998 6:38 am -0700 "Joel Klecker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

> At 12:24 +0100 1998-05-04, Jules Bean wrote:
>>The following packages on my system are in bo but not in hamm:
>>
>>--- Obsolete and local packages present on system ---
>>- Obsolete/local Required packages -
>>--- Obsolete/local Required packages in section base ---
>> *** Req base timezone 7.55-2  
>>- Obsolete/local Standard packages -
>>--- Obsolete/local Standard packages in section admin ---
>> *** Std adminwg15-locale  2-5 
>>--- Obsolete/local Standard packages in section libs ---
>> *** Std libs libbfd2.7.0. 2.7.0.9-3   
> 
> Those packages are a) superceded (the first two) or b) obsolete (the
last).
> 

Cool.  I'll kill them.

Should the first two have been "Replaces: "'ed by their successors?

And do we perhaps need a way of marking a package as Obsolete - Default
action purge - in the packages file?

Jules

/+---+-\
|  Jelibean aka  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  6 Evelyn Rd|
|  Jules aka |   |  Richmond, Surrey   |
|  Julian Bean   | [EMAIL PROTECTED]|  TW9 2TF *UK*   |
++---+-+
|  War doesn't demonstrate who's right... just who's left. |
|  When privacy is outlawed... only the outlaws have privacy.  |
\--/



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link

[CPL_DIAL08]

X-URL: mailto:debian-devel@lists.debian.org
X-Mailer: Lynx, Version 2.4-FM
X-Personal_name: Sam
X-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Can you please send me a link to download debian. I have looked for 3hrs.
Please send it to  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Bug#21969: debian-policy: needs clarification about Standards-Version

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul> Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
>>  I would be willing to say that we leave determination of the point
>> when following policy is detrimental to the package to the
>> maintainers themselves; so Dale could decide that stripping the
>> binaries is detriental to his package.

Raul> You honestly think this is good enough for new developers?  I
Raul> must confess that I'm not really in touch with the sort of
Raul> things they would think.

Of course. You gotta trust people some time. I think we give
 folks the benefit of doubt. It is not as if anyone could
 silently ignore policy -- they are supposed to file a bug
 against policy, which shall submit their ideas to peer review on this
 list.

If they are at fault, the bug shall be reassgned to their
 package, and they shall have to fix it.

Length of time with Debian is a poor metric of competence.

Raul> So, while I like your general statement that discussion should
Raul> ensue, and I worry about the implications of a statement to the
Raul> effect that a maintainer must announce the policy deviation in
Raul> triplicate. The questions that bother me have to do with flamage
Raul> and harshness directed against people trying their best to help
Raul> us out.

We cannot legislate against flamage, unfortunately. It is my
 hope that we give people the benefit of doubt and at least one chance
 before jumping on them. It is also my hope that we can refrain from
 jumping on people who are, wth the best of intentions, trying to
 help. 

As to reporting errors in policy, all one has to do is file a
 bug report against policy, send a CC to debian-policy mailing list
 (asking to be kept on the cc list if one is not subscribed there),
 and log the policy volation in the changelog of any package that is
 going to ignore policy -- Hmm, this is not so bad, is it? This is not
 an event that happens everyday (I hope), so once in a blue moon one
 can send a message, wth a CC field, and record it in the changelog,
 if any.

Raul> We can't come up with a specific set of tests, no.  We can have
Raul> a set of general goals which help focus people's attention on
Raul> the hot spots.

Really? Why can't we insterad examine those hot-spots in the
 policy document and try to elimeinate them? 

>> In any case, the Policy documents should be amended so that the
>> rest of the maintainers benefit from it as well.

Raul> After we figure out how and why, yes. If we make the imperative
Raul> to modify policy really strong, and just plain ignore our goals
Raul> for the project, I can see this turning into a real mess.

What do you mean by that? How can having a policy that conforms
 to correct behaviour be against the goals of the project?

manoj
-- 
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 Godfather
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


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Intent to package Xswallow

[Martin Read]

Javier Fernandez-Sanguino Pen~a writes:
>   Xswallow is a plugin for Netscape that allows ANY X-based application
> tu run inside Netscape. This allows you to run a VRML browser 
> (vrwave,vrweb..) or
> a midi application inside Netscape without having to expressely save to disk
> and then run it aside. It works with  tags and /etc/mime.types.

This sounds distressingly like a serious security hole - unless it refuses
requests resembling "xterm -e foo".  It's not quite as bad as "xhost +",
I'll admit, but it does sound like a major risk nevertheless.

>   I have tried it with Netscape 3.0 and 4.0b5 (not with Mozilla yet :( )
> it can be found as a RedHat package so I intend to use this first for the
> first release. BTW it is GPL'd.

Martin
-- 
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 \ /  | "Hiding out in South America/Protected by money and powerful friends
  V   |  Hoping the world has forgotten by now/All the things you did in the
--'  Nazi death camps" -- New Model Army, "Vengeance"


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Re: Apt is cool (yay!) - What about bo?

[Joel Klecker]

At 12:24 +0100 1998-05-04, Jules Bean wrote:
>The following packages on my system are in bo but not in hamm:
>
>--- Obsolete and local packages present on system ---
>- Obsolete/local Required packages -
>--- Obsolete/local Required packages in section base ---
> *** Req base timezone 7.55-2  
>- Obsolete/local Standard packages -
>--- Obsolete/local Standard packages in section admin ---
> *** Std adminwg15-locale  2-5 
>--- Obsolete/local Standard packages in section libs ---
> *** Std libs libbfd2.7.0. 2.7.0.9-3   

Those packages are a) superceded (the first two) or b) obsolete (the last).

--
Joel "Espy" Klecker
Debian GNU/Linux Developer...



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Intent to package Xswallow

[Javier Fernandez-Sanguino Pen~a]

Xswallow is a plugin for Netscape that allows ANY X-based application
tu run inside Netscape. This allows you to run a VRML browser (vrwave,vrweb..) 
or
a midi application inside Netscape without having to expressely save to disk
and then run it aside. It works with  tags and /etc/mime.types.

I have tried it with Netscape 3.0 and 4.0b5 (not with Mozilla yet :( )
it can be found as a RedHat package so I intend to use this first for the
first release. BTW it is GPL'd.

Javi


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Re: What's the storywith 2.0?

[Raul Miller]

Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am a bit frustrated with hamm right now.  As of just before hamm went from
> 'unstable' to 'frozen' almost every upgrade on my PC box 'breaks something'.
> I was literally 'spoiled' by the fact that during the last 6+ months of 
> development under unstable Debian hamm was more 'solid' than probably any
> other Linux.

Likewise.  I've got some boxes I put together using "unstable", and I don't
trust "frozen" enough to upgrade them.  I was hoping to upgrade them before
release, but it looks like that's just not going to happen.

I don't think we can do much for hamm, but I'd like to see some "burn
in boxes" to aid in testing packages before release for slink.  I'll
see if I can come up with one myself...

-- 
Raul


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Re: fetchmail/procmail was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[wrl]

'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 04:19:31AM +, Rev. Joseph Carter wrote:
> On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:40:45PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > We are probably wasting everyone's time now by not looking to see just what
> > fetchmail/procmail interface actually is...
> > 
> > As I understand it, the fetchmail/procmail interface is a kludge. 
> 
> No, actually it's a pipe..  =>  

Well yes, but a pipe IS a kludge to fetchmail
 Damn, missed   :-)

> > Fetchmail
> > is intended and designed to work with smtp for delivery.  Procmail OTOH
> > doesn't know anything about smtp.  What sort of error code is procmail
> > going to give to fetchmail and how is fetchmail to receive this code?
> 
> If procmail gives errors the message is not deleted from the POP server. 
> I've tested this (without meaning to) myself..

That is interesting.  Then maybe the assertion that lost mail with a 
fetchmail/procmail combination is not true (ie:  the reported loss was
NOT do to the fetchmail/procmail interface)

-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 See!  They do get some things right!


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Re: What's the storywith 2.0?

[Bill Leach]

I am one of those 'not a developer, hamm users'.  I have been using 1PC type
and three 68k type Debian hamm boxes since sometime around the middle of 
last year.

I am a bit frustrated with hamm right now.  As of just before hamm went from
'unstable' to 'frozen' almost every upgrade on my PC box 'breaks something'.
I was literally 'spoiled' by the fact that during the last 6+ months of 
development under unstable Debian hamm was more 'solid' than probably any
other Linux.

Not to 'wave my flag' but rather to point to the reality of the situation...
I did not 'bitch' about the problems I began to experience but rather
reminded myself that not only is Linux not warrenteed but 'unstable' and
'frozen' ARE development versions and things ARE expected to break as
conflicts and bugs are worked out -- sometimes more than one attempt.
Most of the problems that I experienced were even probably my own fault.

If you want a software distribution that 'sounds the horns' and releases
with 'great fanfare' on some specific date (irrespective of how ready the
software may be for use) then go buy something like M$.

I as one insignificant user of Debian Linux am happy with and very 
comfortable with my knowledge that when the Debian developers agree that
hamm is 'ready for prime time' and move it to 'stable' that it will AT
THAT time be one of if not the most reliable Linux releases available.
Without a doubt within a month following that release, it will be.

The Debian developer's attitude about making 'the level of the quality and
reliability of the distribution' be the 'release criteria' is almost
unique in practice.  While other people (esp. advertisers) 'pay lip
service' to 'quality first' and "... never before its' time", they are
really driven by 'market demands' to the point where in some cases they
will not even delay a release with serious problems.  This is NOT the
sort of thing that will happen with Debian.

With Debian the release must NOT be made if there are any serious
known bugs.  I think that this 'overall attitude' is also the reason
why 'unstable' became so reliable so fast.  Debian has a large number of
'users' that run the 'unstable' release a soon as it 'settles down'
precisely because it is advanced in concept and the care in its'
development will ensure that bugs are short lived and fixed carefully.

So, Debian gives you a choice that you did not have before:
You can get a 'clock based release' from elsewhere or you can get a
'quality based' release from here... the choice is now yours!


On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 04:23:27PM -0400, Thomas Lakofski wrote:
> On Sun, 3 May 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > >From what you just said, you question would better be worded: When will
> > 2.x be reasonably stable for a non-experimental user? As a non-developer,
> > let me give you my best estimate:
> > 
> > Never. History will probably repeat itself and the project will
> > go even further away from this planet. Rather than focus on building a
> > 2.0.x release that kicks ass, they will concentrate on playing with new
> > toys.
> 
> [etc. etc. etc.]
> 
> Expressing these sentiments in this manner is unlikely to help your cause.
> Bear in mind that the Debian developers are volunteers, and I've found
> over the last 18 months of using Debian that they are extremely helpful,
> hardworking volunteers.  Please, instead of spreading fear, uncertainty
> and doubt in this manner make a positive contribution, either by helping
> to fix problems you see in the distribution yourself, or choosing another
> distribution which fits your needs more perfectly.
> 
> I feel that the effort that is being made to make hamm actually stable
> before it is declared as such is very commendable.  If I wanted a rush job
> I would go out and buy Red Hat.  I don't.  I want a high-quality
> distribution with top-grade reliability and a large selection of packages
> (the so-called 'toys' you complained about).  That distribution is Debian.
> 
> -thomas
> 
> 
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> 

-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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"The less you know about computers the more you want Micro$oft!"
 See!  They do get some things right!


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Re: Run away TCSH

[Luis Francisco Gonzalez]

Mark W. Eichin wrote:
> someone on tcsh-dev found that bug - I sent in the particular patch as
> a bug report, but haven't heard anything (on this or on the
> history-lines 2*longer than the buffer problem either, though I
> haven't dug through and sent that upstream myself...)
TCSH was orphaned for six months. I took maintainership three days before the
freeze. I have since solved five bugs. Among them the runaway problem althogh
all the credit goes to [EMAIL PROTECTED] who found the problem. The patch you
sent only solved the symptoms AFAICT, not the problem. I did answer the bug
report you sent. Go check the bug database.

It is true I haven't had time to look at the other problem but I think the
tone of your message is very unfair. 

Luis.
-- 
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PGP Fingerprint = F8 B1 13 DE 22 22 94 A1  14 BE 95 8E 49 39 78 76


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Re: Bug#21969: debian-policy: needs clarification about Standards-Version

[Raul Miller]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Raul> I've mostly agreed with (Buddha and Philip's) statement you
> Raul> quoted a few days ago which talks about what to do when policy
> Raul> doesn't apply properly. I think it has a weakness: in creating
> Raul> the rules for how "debian-policy" is or isn't followed, no
> Raul> policy has been formed about when to go beyond "debian-policy".
> 
>   Umm, do you mean the debian-policy mailing list here, or do
>  you refer to the set of documents loosely referred to as the "Policy
>  Documents"? If the former, then I am quite confused.

The policy manual.  The mailing list is a focal point, because that's
where some of the change happens.

> Raul> As you've probably gathered, I'm a little uncomfortable with a
> Raul> blanket statement which claims to convert policy to some rules
> Raul> that always applies to all cases. But if we can come up with a
> Raul> good statement for how we can recognize when the rules don't
> Raul> take us where we want, I can live with that.
> 
>   I would be willing to say that we leave determination of the
>  point when following policy is detrimental to the package to the
>  maintainers themselves; so Dale could decide that stripping the
>  binaries is detriental to his package.

You honestly think this is good enough for new developers?  I must
confess that I'm not really in touch with the sort of things they
would think.

Certainly, I think this is an opportunity to (a) better figure out
what we're doing, and (b) let people know.

>   At thsi point, one should point this out to the maintainer
>  community at large (in case another person is in the same boat and
>  has not yet realized that policy is broken), and, since people are
>  human and may err, and the maintainer who originally thought the
>  policy is flawed may be wrong, and quite possibly the colective
>  intellect of the maintainer community may prove helpful.

Yes.  But realize there's a whole range of possibilities here,
at one end is "Maintainer just didn't understand our policy" at
the other end is "Maintainer clearly knows how to write better
policy".  In the middle is stuff like "policy was ambiguous, and
maintainer thought it made sense bug missed the crucial phrase
that made package technically violate policy."

So, while I like your general statement that discussion should ensue,
and I worry about the implications of a statement to the effect that
a maintainer must announce the policy deviation in triplicate. The
questions that bother me have to do with flamage and harshness directed
against people trying their best to help us out.

>   I think that we can't come up with a set of tests a priori to
>  determine how to determine when the rules ("Policy Document") are
>  flawed, and we trust the judgement of the develoers when they think
>  it is time to examine aspects of the Policy Documents.

We can't come up with a specific set of tests, no.  We can have a
set of general goals which help focus people's attention on the
hot spots.

>   In any case, the Policy documents should be amended so that
>  the rest of the maintainers benefit from it as well.

After we figure out how and why, yes. If we make the imperative to
modify policy really strong, and just plain ignore our goals for the
project, I can see this turning into a real mess.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Run away TCSH

[Luis Francisco Gonzalez]

G John Lapeyre wrote:
> Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> > 
> > I recall there being a discussion on this some time ago, I just noticed on
> > master,
>   Luis tried to upload a  fix (from a debian maintainer) to chiark,
> but it got lost. I can't find it. Luis inquired about it a while ago and
> was instructed to wait.  From the discussion on the fix, I doubt it will
> work, but I'll test it as soon as I see the package.
Get it from master.

Luis.
-- 
Luis Francisco Gonzalez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
PGP Fingerprint = F8 B1 13 DE 22 22 94 A1  14 BE 95 8E 49 39 78 76


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Re: not knowing where to send this.....

[Martin Schulze]

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 07:34:10AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > SmartList removes addresses after it has received 4 bounces per list
> > per address.  Sometimes it's confused though.
> 
> I take it, SmartList isn't using VERP but is instead trying to 
> decipher the bounce message?

Normally...

Regards,

Joey

-- 
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 / http://home.pages.de/~joey/
/  Unable to locate coffee, operator halted.  -- Stefan Farsch  /


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Re: not knowing where to send this.....

[Raul Miller]

Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> SmartList removes addresses after it has received 4 bounces per list
> per address.  Sometimes it's confused though.

I take it, SmartList isn't using VERP but is instead trying to 
decipher the bounce message?

-- 
Raul


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Apt is cool (yay!) - What about bo?

[Jules Bean]

Hi!

Just installed apt_0.0.8.  My impression is that it is significantly faster
than dpkg-ftp.  Could be pyschological, though ;)

The default apt sources.list doesn't include a reference to bo - and in any
case, since we're undergoing a symlink transition, I haven't been had bo in
my dselect for a while.

What is the status of bo?  Now that frozen is frozen, is it supposed to
contain all necessary packages?  Or should we still have bo as a fallback.

The following packages on my system are in bo but not in hamm:

--- Obsolete and local packages present on system ---
- Obsolete/local Required packages -
--- Obsolete/local Required packages in section base ---
 *** Req base timezone 7.55-2  
- Obsolete/local Standard packages -
--- Obsolete/local Standard packages in section admin ---
 *** Std adminwg15-locale  2-5 
--- Obsolete/local Standard packages in section libs ---
 *** Std libs libbfd2.7.0. 2.7.0.9-3   


[Yay!  I have PGP installed.. one step closer to developer registration..  I
hope GNUpg gets going soon tho' - depending on PGP sucks...]

Jules

/+---+-\
|  Jelibean aka  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  6 Evelyn Rd|
|  Jules aka |   |  Richmond, Surrey   |
|  Julian Bean   | [EMAIL PROTECTED]|  TW9 2TF *UK*   |
++---+-+
|  War doesn't demonstrate who's right... just who's left. |
|  When privacy is outlawed... only the outlaws have privacy.  |
\--/



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New maintainer acception partially stalled

[Martin Schulze]

Hi folks,

I'm sorry to say but new-maintainer acceptances are partially
stalled due to severe proplems on pgp.net the public pgp key
servers.  They seem to drop newly added keys for at least two
weeks.  After some more investigation from us the maintainers
are informed.  I hope this will be fixed rsn.

Just to let you know,

Joey

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pgp6tL7gBPX67.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: not knowing where to send this.....

[Martin Schulze]

On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 01:34:35AM -0400, Shaleh wrote:
> I just was un-subscribed from debian-user for generating too many
> bounced mails.  I have now problems with my mail.  I have received some
> 400 e-mails in the last day and a half and sent around twenty.  I work
> for the ISP, our mail server is stable.  Otherwise our customers would
> be ripping the doors down (-:  Can someone explain what happened???

SmartList removes addresses after it has received 4 bounces per list
per address.  Sometimes it's confused though.

Regards,

Joey

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 / http://home.pages.de/~joey/
/  Unable to locate coffee, operator halted.  -- Stefan Farsch  /


pgpn3kOxFTqG1.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Time to say goodbye...

[Heiko Schlittermann]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 09:43:42AM -0700, Jim Pick wrote:
: 
: Christian Schwarz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
: 
: > The discussions of the last days have shown me clearly, that I can't
: > implement my ideas WRT policy/QA anymore.
: 
: > Therefore, I've decided to leave the Debian project.
: 
: Sorry to see you leave.
: 
: I must admit, I've been entirely negligent in following the policy
: discussions - due to lack of time, I've skipped them entirely.

... as I did.

: I suspect that most of the other "older" maintainers are the same way
: - they've skipped the policy discussions altogether - which would
: explain your perceived lack of support.

... as I do.

: I discovered about a year ago that the policy discussions are very
: draining and mostly negative, and seldom go anywhere.  The only people
: who get anything accomplished in Debian are the people who actually do

... yes, the most frequently used key was `D' when I found policy
discussions in the lists.

: Perhaps, instead of leaving Debian completely, try this -- just resign
: as the Policy guy first, and continue as a regular developer.  I think
: you'll find it to be much more relaxed and enjoyable.

I think, Debian is worth to be supported further.  Not only for
technical reasons but for ``political'' reasons.  I don't like to see
yet another Linux Distribution.   Enough distributions are out there.

Try to keep staying, as an ordinary maintainer  :)

Heiko
--
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pgp   : A1 7D F6 7B 69 73 48 35  E1 DE 21 A7 A8 9A 77 92 
finger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Copyright of fontinst.

[Federico Di Gregorio]

Hi,
some time ago I expressed the intent to package fontinst
(a TeX/LaTeX package). I asked the author about the licence
and here's what I got. It is not DFSG but we *do* have latex
in tetex. So is it right for main? Thanx, federico.

- Forwarded message -

The fontinst package is distributed under the same
restrictions as LaTeX, ie it should be distributed unchanged.

Thanks for the nice comments on the software!

Alan.
-- 
Alan Jeffrey,  Visiting Associate Professor, CTI, DePaul University, USA
Lecturer in Theoretical Computer Science, COGS, University of Sussex, UK
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   +1 312 362 8322

- End forwarded message -

-- 
Federico Di Gregorio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org)
"Never lost your fine sig in a disk crash? Surely I did!"


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Re: Time to say goodbye...

[Michael Meskes]

Jim Pick writes:
> I must admit, I've been entirely negligent in following the policy
> discussions - due to lack of time, I've skipped them entirely.

Me too.

> I suspect that most of the other "older" maintainers are the same way
> - they've skipped the policy discussions altogether - which would
> explain your perceived lack of support.

Yes. This holds for me too.

Michael

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Re: intent to take mawk and gawk

[Herbert Xu]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you wrote:
>   Chris> Debian's [...]  Chris> and adding the requirement for PGP (which I
>   Chris> never needed before) plus my growing involvement in small start-up
>   Chris> businesses (mostly Debian Linux based) have consumed all my time.

> FUD. 

> I created PGP keys three years ago because I needed to sign Debian uploads.

But I don't think it was enforced until (relatively) recently.

-- 
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Email:  Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~} <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
PGP Key: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt


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Re: Bug#21969: debian-policy: needs clarification about Standards-Version

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul> Policy SHOULD be followed, in the general case. I'd even agree
Raul> that in a large number of specific cases (but not all), policy
Raul> MUST be followed. You're the one that has decided that this
Raul> means that it SHOULD NOT be followed.

Well, at least that is a starting point.

Raul> I've mostly agreed with (Buddha and Philip's) statement you
Raul> quoted a few days ago which talks about what to do when policy
Raul> doesn't apply properly. I think it has a weakness: in creating
Raul> the rules for how "debian-policy" is or isn't followed, no
Raul> policy has been formed about when to go beyond "debian-policy".

Umm, do you mean the debian-policy mailing list here, or do
 you refer to the set of documents loosely referred to as the "Policy
 Documents"? If the former, then I am quite confused.

Raul> As you've probably gathered, I'm a little uncomfortable with a
Raul> blanket statement which claims to convert policy to some rules
Raul> that always applies to all cases. But if we can come up with a
Raul> good statement for how we can recognize when the rules don't
Raul> take us where we want, I can live with that.

I would be willing to say that we leave determination of the
 point when following policy is detrimental to the package to the
 maintainers themselves; so Dale could decide that stripping the
 binaries is detriental to his package.

At thsi point, one should point this out to the maintainer
 community at large (in case another person is in the same boat and
 has not yet realized that policy is broken), and, since people are
 human and may err, and the maintainer who originally thought the
 policy is flawed may be wrong, and quite possibly the colective
 intellect of the maintainer community may prove helpful.

I think that we can't come up with a set of tests a priori to
 determine how to determine when the rules ("Policy Document") are
 flawed, and we trust the judgement of the develoers when they think
 it is time to examine aspects of the Policy Documents.

In any case, the Policy documents should be amended so that
 the rest of the maintainers benefit from it as well.

manoj

-- 
 Never invest your money in anything that eats or needs
 painting. Billy Rose
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


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Re: not knowing where to send this.....

[Raul Miller]

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I expect that everyone who has sent email to debian-devel this
> weekend will have been unsubscribed.

[Er... probably not everyone: the "too many bounces" mechanism
probably won't knock off people who posted just a few times.]

-- 
Raul


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Re: not knowing where to send this.....

[Raul Miller]

Shaleh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just was un-subscribed from debian-user for generating too many
> bounced mails.  I have now problems with my mail.  I have received some
> 400 e-mails in the last day and a half and sent around twenty.  I work
> for the ISP, our mail server is stable.  Otherwise our customers would
> be ripping the doors down (-:  Can someone explain what happened???

The mechanism is broken -- it's unsubscribing the person who
sent the email, rather than the person who was supposed to receive it.

I expect that everyone who has sent email to debian-devel this
weekend will have been unsubscribed.  And, since none of them
will be able to see these messages to the list about the problem,
all will be confused.

Personally, I'm re-subscribing with a different email address from
what I normally use to write email, which should keep this particular
problem from happening to me again...

-- 
Raul


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not knowing where to send this.....

[Shaleh]

I just was un-subscribed from debian-user for generating too many
bounced mails.  I have now problems with my mail.  I have received some
400 e-mails in the last day and a half and sent around twenty.  I work
for the ISP, our mail server is stable.  Otherwise our customers would
be ripping the doors down (-:  Can someone explain what happened???


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bogus bounce handling

[Raul Miller]

Watch out, folks. There's something bogus going on with bounce handling,
and people may be dropping off the list due to problems in the bms.com
domain.

-- 
Raul

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>
>
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>
>
>Sun,  3 May 1998 09:11:04 -0400 (EDT)
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>
>
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>TCP active open: Failed connect()Error: Connection timed out
>
>
>Sun,  3 May 1998 07:11:04 -0400 (EDT)
>TCP active open: Failed connect()Error: Connection timed out
>
>
>Sun,  3 May 1998 06:11:01 -0400 (EDT)
>TCP active open: Failed connect()Error: Connection timed out
>
>
>The mail system will continue to try to deliver your message
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Re: Run away TCSH

[G John Lapeyre]

Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> 
> I recall there being a discussion on this some time ago, I just noticed on
> master,
There is a bit of dicussion on it in the bug system.  I
corresponded with the debian mainainter (Luis Gonzales) and the upstream
author.  They think it is a pretty tough problem.  I spent several hours
on it myself, but I don't have the skills/time required to fix it.  I
made a fix that works in some circumstances , but not all, and I am not
sure it didn't break something else. 
Luis tried to upload a  fix (from a debian maintainer) to chiark,
but it got lost. I can't find it. Luis inquired about it a while ago and
was instructed to wait.  From the discussion on the fix, I doubt it will
work, but I'll test it as soon as I see the package.
If anyone's interested, I put detailed instructions in bug reports
on how to produce it.  Also I think I sent instructions on how to get it
to occur under gdb (I had to use the 'attach' command) .

John


John Lapeyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Tucson,AZ http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~lapeyre


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Re: fetchmail/procmail was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:40:45PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> We are probably wasting everyone's time now by not looking to see just what
> fetchmail/procmail interface actually is...
> 
> As I understand it, the fetchmail/procmail interface is a kludge. 

No, actually it's a pipe..  =>  


> Fetchmail
> is intended and designed to work with smtp for delivery.  Procmail OTOH
> doesn't know anything about smtp.  What sort of error code is procmail
> going to give to fetchmail and how is fetchmail to receive this code?

If procmail gives errors the message is not deleted from the POP server. 
I've tested this (without meaning to) myself..


pgpFTToTyQX2t.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:45:24PM +0400, Amos Shapira wrote:
> |Sendmail configuration is tough but it is also the best documented MTA
> |bar none!  The O'Reliey book alone on sendmail is 2 1/5" thick.  Probably 
> |close to everything that has ever been done with mail has been done with
> |sendmail (and possibly some things that can only be done with sendmail --
> |and NO I don't know of any examples personally).
> 
> The only reason I still keep sendmail on my home machine is that I
> didn't get any answer about how to implement a "fallback MX" in Qmail.
> The point is a little mute now that I have an FR line at home but
> still maybe this is your example.

Didya ask the qmail list?


pgpzmsUPgduvL.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Why is premail in non-free?

[aqy6633]

>Could anyone tell me why premail is in non-free? I've read the license a
>couple of times, and I really don't see anything that would prevent it 
> from=
>=20
>being in main (or at least contrib). Am I missing something?
> 
> I see nothing that would make me object to its inclusion in main.

Me neither.

I'm  even seriously thinking of adopting it to my own "creatures" :)

Alex Y.
-- 
   _ 
 _( )_
( (o___   +---+
 |  _ 7   |Alexander Yukhimets|
  \(")|   http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/  |
  / \ \   +---+


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 07:10:45PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Rev> How did you get sendmail to cooperate with dialup?
> 
>   What do you mean by cooperate? I send mail using sendmail
>  whenever I want to. On up-up, I do a sendmail -q. I download messages
>  using fetchmail. As to my sendmail config, I append my own config
>  file /etc/mail/sendmail.mc below.  Just edit out the HACK stuff, that
>  is mostly anti-spam and local hacks.

I'll save this message for use in my next sendmail configuration. 
Unfortunately this thing is "standard" which means it won't go away and I'll
need to configure it somewhere sooner or later...  =>


> Rev> And sendmail is still not suited to being easy to configure.
> 
>   Fortunately, I do not find that to be the case. I have added
>  several local HACKs and uploaded them into /usr/lib/sendmail.cf/hacks;
>  and that was that. I found it quite easy to modify the guts of
>  sendmail behaviour that way.

I don't know how this works...


>   I do know it is fashinable to slander pore ole sendmail ;-)

What, just because sendmail.cf looks like line noise?  =>


> Rev> sendmailconfig is "not that bad" but it's also "not that good" if
> Rev> the intent is for a person who doesn't know anything beyond that
> Rev> their smtp server is mail.ispdomain.com about it.
> 
>   Oh, well, I guess like UNIX, sendmail is not for people who
>  are not willing to scale the learning curve. And I do not personally
>  think that the sendmail learning curve is that bad (I think it is
>  easier than learning vi or ed ;-)

I don't like vi either..  =>  It's hard to use and the commands were
designed for a plain ASCII terminal with very bare screen manipulation
codes..  hehehe  Oh wait, it IS..  nevermind...


> Rev> ssmtp is the right solution it looks like, probably along with
> Rev> fetchmail and either procmail (this would IMO be preferred) or
> Rev> deliver..
> 
>   You mileage has evidently varied from mine.

Apparently so..  =>

pgppkpwSoSlcz.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: fetchmail/procmail was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[wrl]

'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 11:39:44PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 3 May 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > 'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'
> > 
> > I don't think so Jason...
> > 
> > Fetchmail is also pretty robust about mail handling but it expect whatever
> > it 'hands a message too' to do something with the message.
> > 
> > I won't even pretend to know the nature of the problems but I suspect that
> > it deals with the idea that the MTA's all honor the "SIZE" message whereas
> > I don't believe that Procmail does.  Fetchmail's problem then is that once
> > I has 'the ok' from Procmail to transfer the message, there is nothing that
> > fetchmail can do if procmail later fails.
> 
> No, it should always check the return code of the subprocess (if it is
> using procmail) before it erases the message from the server. If the
> return code is bad it should never erase the message.

We are probably wasting everyone's time now by not looking to see just what
fetchmail/procmail interface actually is...

As I understand it, the fetchmail/procmail interface is a kludge.  Fetchmail
is intended and designed to work with smtp for delivery.  Procmail OTOH
doesn't know anything about smtp.  What sort of error code is procmail
going to give to fetchmail and how is fetchmail to receive this code?


-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
from a 1996 Micro$loth ad campaign:
"The less you know about computers the more you want Micro$oft!"
 See!  They do get some things right!


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Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[wrl]

'From Bill Leach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>'

I don't see why either but it sure has not been done.

[snip]
> I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to make configuration just
> as easy for a dial-up case. We need to figure out what the typical dial-up
> cases look like and integrate them into the configuration as well.
> 
[snip]
> >1)  Places a vaild (to the ISP) From header on all internet bound mail
> >(no matter what the user's local network name might be).
> >
> >2)  Send all 'outbound' mail to a smarthost depending upon which ISP
> >is in use.
> >
> >I realize that #1 is not really the MTA's 'responsibility' but it is the
> >logical place for this to be accomplished since any place else in the
> >'chain' is not unique (ie:  there are too many mail composing software
> >packages, most (AFAIK) won't let you muck with the headers (and really
> >shouldn't).
> >
> >#2 IS the responsibility of the MTA but AFAIK none were designed with the
> >idea that you might have different 'smarthosts' as different times.
> 
> #1 is simple to do, though it probably needs a few variants, depeding on
> whether the machine serves an entire domain or just a sigle account/email
> address.
> 
> #2 Might be doable using sendmail's smarthost "MX" feature (setting
> the smarthost to a list of colon-separated hosts). With a bit of hacking
> it shouldn't be hard to have it read it from a file on each delivery
> attempt.
> 
> Regards,
> /Anders

#1 may be simple to do (and I know that I did do it once) but if you notice,
my from header is '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' and that name and user are
unknown outside my own LAN.  Now I will admit to having been guilty of not
making notes about what I did when I managed to set that up properly before.
Best I can tell, the configuration that I presently have for exim should
'nuke' that header and replace it -- but it obviously does not.

AFAIK, #2 is NOT doable using any normal feature of sendmail, smail, or
exim.  These mailers are designed to be 'pretty damned smart' about
figuring out what mail server to send to based upon the specifics of the
particular message but have no concept of possibly different internet
connections.



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> 

-- 
best,
-bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
from a 1996 Micro$loth ad campaign:
"The less you know about computers the more you want Micro$oft!"
 See!  They do get some things right!


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intent to package eql

[Roberto Lumbreras]

Hi all.

I've noted that debian doesn't have the tool to manage the EQL
network device.  After a bit of ftping I've found eql-1.2.tar.gz in
sunsite.unc.edu, compiled and tested it. Maybe eql is not very used
(I used it some years ago and it worked fine!), but anyway it's
silly to have EQL support in the kernel without the neccesary tools
to use it.

Here is my proposed description:

 Description: load balancing tool for serial network connections
  The eql_enslave tool allow you to double, triple, quadruple your
  network bandwidth with multiple point-to-point links. Works with
  PPP or SLIP.  It needs "EQL (serial line load balancing)
  support" in the kernel.

It was written by Simon Janes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, it is GPLed and
smallish. If nobody objects I'll package and upload it to unstable,
with package name "eql", section admin and priority optional.

Regards,
-- 
Roberto Lumbreras
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] & pgp 143BE391
Lander Internet, Madrid-Spain-UE; http://www.lander.es


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Re: Preliminary intent to package - enlightenment

[Raul Miller]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There are several problems with the packaging of enlightenment. It's
> menuing system is *not* easy to integrate with debian menu. This is simply
> because of the flexible and highly detailed syntax it uses. It is not
> modular in any way.

A preliminary version of 0.14 is supposed to be out before the end of
the month. However, the 0.13 menuing system isn't all that unmanageable
-- you just need a script to assign numbers (count, pixel offsets) to
the menu entries.

-- 
Raul


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Re: Why is premail in non-free?

[Ben Pfaff]

   Could anyone tell me why premail is in non-free? I've read the license a
   couple of times, and I really don't see anything that would prevent it from=
   =20
   being in main (or at least contrib). Am I missing something?

I see nothing that would make me object to its inclusion in main.


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Re: Bug#21969: debian-policy: needs clarification about Standards-Version

[Raul Miller]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> In any case, policy is not meant to be followed anyway.

Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Raul> Cut it out, Manoj.

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Why? You should be happy I'm on your side now. Were you not objecting
>  to the statement that policy has to be followed? Well, either policy
>  has to be followed, or not. Please make up your mind on the issue.

Policy SHOULD be followed, in the general case. I'd even agree that in a
large number of specific cases (but not all), policy MUST be followed.
You're the one that has decided that this means that it SHOULD NOT be
followed.

I've mostly agreed with (Buddha and Philip's) statement you quoted a
few days ago which talks about what to do when policy doesn't apply
properly. I think it has a weakness: in creating the rules for how
"debian-policy" is or isn't followed, no policy has been formed about
when to go beyond "debian-policy".

As you've probably gathered, I'm a little uncomfortable with a blanket
statement which claims to convert policy to some rules that always
applies to all cases. But if we can come up with a good statement for
how we can recognize when the rules don't take us where we want, I can
live with that.

And, to be honest, a lot of the policy manual is prescriptive rather
than descriptive.

>  who thinks that with the exit of the policy editor, policy may well
>  be dead.

Christian did a lot of good work, and probably will continue to do so
(though, for whatever reason, he's stated that he doesn't think he can
do it in this forum).

Other people can do good work, too.

[Aside: I wrote him and asked for clarification on what he meant, and he
didn't respond. I presume this means he's pretty busy.]

-- 
Raul


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where is libc6-dev 2.0.7pre3

[Shaleh]

I have libc6 2.0.7pre3-1 installed.  libc6-dev is unhappy -- all I can
find is the 2.0.7pre1-4 of it.  apt is kinda of cure here.  It wants to
remove my libc6-dev and all dependant packages (-:  Glad I have it held.


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apt tried for the first time

[Shaleh]

Looks good.  We have needed a progress meter for a long time.  Cant wait
for the GUI !!


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Re: Coming to closure on ae...

[Raul Miller]

> > > Test $DISPLAY, it's the Right Way to test for X.

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 08:24:50PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote:
> > But not the right way to test for xterm.

Rev. Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If $DISPLAY is set you're either in an xterm, rxvt, or kvt.  As far as ae
> would care, these are one and the same.

Yeah, Dale wrote me and pointed out that the problem wasn't the terminal
emulation, but the function key bindings (which are outside the scope
of something like a vt100 emulation).

Though I must admit being confused why we can't have bindings for
both the X and Console function keys.

-- 
Raul


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Re: MDA's was: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Raul Miller]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   In my opinion, sendmail is well documented *and* has lots of
>  documentation. I also fail to find sendmail.cf obfuscatory -- but
>  then, I have been writing sendmail.cf files since 1992. 

Depends what you're trying to do, I suppose.

When I want tto rewrite mail, I find perl more convenient.  I don't
like how sendmail mixes mail rewriting with mail routing.

> Raul> In fact, a useful documentation tactic is to alter the program
> Raul> to make it easier to document.
> 
>   Are you saying this has happened to exim? or qmail? or
>  sendmail? or is it just a general statement?

General statement.

-- 
Raul


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Re: install-docs in prerm problem

[Adam P. Harris]

[Sorry to be so late reading debian-devel.  Please cc
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> next time.  I just don't always have time
 to keep up on this list.]

Elie Rosenblum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Folks, make sure your prerm scripts don't fail if the install-docs doesn't
> want to uninstall docs that aren't installed.
> 
> I had developers-reference installed, but not doc-base. Installed doc-base,
> then tried to upgrade developers-reference, and the prerm refused to work,
> because it wasn't registered with install-docs.

Interesting case.  Clearly, this is a flaw in install-docs; I'm aware
of it by my vision is that when slink is around install-docs will be a
required package and installed very early on.  Aside from that, I'm
not sure whether we need additional facilities for picking up
documents installed before itself.

> Now, this isn't much of a problem for me; I can edit the prerm file myself
> and make it work. However, I don't expect production packages to need low
> level fixes like this, which are inappropriate for non-developers to need
> to use.

You might be interested to know that doc-base since version 0.3 (9 Apr
1998) has this entry in the changelog:

  * install-docs is idempotent for --remove, that is, if you try to remove
a docid which is already removed, it exits with a warning, but not a
non-zero exit status (closes Bug#19875, I think)

.A. P. [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.onShore.com/>


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 07:38:57PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Rev> The script didn't deal with the fact that I didn't have a static
> Rev> IP/name.
> 
>   Hmm. I don't quite understand that -- I think I just had my
>  machine set up as 127.0.0.2 or something (I could also have used
>  192.168.1.10 or something). I had /etc/hosts set up with that -- and
>  said order hosts,bind in /etc/host.conf. 

I almost understand that.  I think.  =>  Yeah, I could have done it that way
-IF- I understood all of that then, but I didn't.  And I don't think I would
expect most newbies to understand it outta the crib---er, I mean outta
windoze either.  (I came from OS/2 personally)


>   I had sendmail working for me as far back as I remember (like
>  linux 0.98.XX) -- and I just got a static IP address late last year. 
> 
> Rev> procmail is a weird and complicated thing? dynamic IPs are a
> Rev> weird and complicated thing?
> 
>   Nope. I would never cal procmail complicated. Underpowered,
>  yes, complicated, no.

 underpowered  mailagent maintainer  perl
 slices and dices 


>   I fail to understand the problems you had, but in my case, I
>  have never had a problem with sendmail. 

The biggest problems I had with sendmail seem to stem from being a new user. 
Which is why I say, sendmail does not seem to be a good solution for a first
linux system--especially if coming from Windoze..


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 10:41:10AM +0200, Hugo Haas wrote:
> > >   root: The person who gets root's mail (also daemons', etc).
> > >   This userid (on the mailhub) get all mail sent to
> > >   local adressees with userids less than 10.  In other
> > >   words, she gets mail the system mails to root, daemon,
> > >   etc.
> > 
> > ooh!  I did -NOT- know it did this.  Not thinking it had this was my one
> > complaint about the package.  Can you specify your own MDA (ie procmail) for
> > this?
> 
> I'm afraid that you can't do that (well, the first s in ssmtp stands
> for simple...).

Someone else said you could pipe root's mail to some MDA like procmail or
deliver..  If you can't, it would not be a nasty problem to modify the
program's source for the task.  I think I even know enough C for the job! 
hehe


> > Ugh.  Depending on what it needs this for, it could be not good that it
> > wants this.  Then again, since this thing would probably only run when you
> > were on the net, it would be no major pain to just configure it in ip-up.d.
> 
> It is used to write header stuff, to generate the From: line if
> RewriteDomain is not specified.
> 
> It is also used to send a HELO command, but this could/should be changed.

mmm, okay, then we WOULD want that set in ip-up.d

The other issue remaining with the program is that it doesn't do mail
queues, and that's one I'm not sure how to handle.  I'm sure perl could
store messages in a queue and try and send them on demand, even using locks
so it'd be re-entrant..  I've written perl that could do this.  =>


This process is simple:

The send wrapper:
Generate a unique file name (pid.timestamp?)
drop a lockfile for the above
dump stdin to above locked file
send file contents to ssmtp
did ssmtp return an error?
  No:  Delete the file and lock
  Yes: Delete the lock only and exit

The runq clone:
For each file in queue directory which isn't locked:
  Lock the file
  send the file contents to ssmtp
  did ssmtp return an error?
No:  Delete the file and lock
Yes: Delete the lock only


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Rev" == Rev Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Rev> The script didn't deal with the fact that I didn't have a static
Rev> IP/name.

Hmm. I don't quite understand that -- I think I just had my
 machine set up as 127.0.0.2 or something (I could also have used
 192.168.1.10 or something). I had /etc/hosts set up with that -- and
 said order hosts,bind in /etc/host.conf. 

I had sendmail working for me as far back as I remember (like
 linux 0.98.XX) -- and I just got a static IP address late last year. 


Rev> procmail is a weird and complicated thing? dynamic IPs are a
Rev> weird and complicated thing?

Nope. I would never cal procmail complicated. Underpowered,
 yes, complicated, no.

Rev> If you have to edit these files by hand, the script doesn't deal
Rev> with all cases. 

No, unfortunately, the script does not deal with all cases. It
 did deal with my dynamic IP, though, by (I think( ignoring the issue:
 I dont't think sendmail.cf knows about it now. Nope, sendmail.cf does
 not know I have a ip address. 

__> getnet tiamat
tiamat.datasync.com  [206.96.246.252] an unnamed network
__> egrep 206 /etc/sendmail.cf 

I fail to understand the problems you had, but in my case, I
 have never had a problem with sendmail. 

manoj
-- 
 Date: 20 Mar 90 01:21:37 GMT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Randal
 Schwartz) $_=',Pr0e=kRcza0hb 5lOr+e"PE :rBe}hRtho]nhaj
 nt.s[u=J@';s/../unshift(a,$&)/eg;chop(@a);[EMAIL PROTECTED];
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 12:54:20AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I think I'm confused too thought that is not such an unusual state latesly...
> Fetchmail IS POP (or IMAP and somthing else but definately NOT smtp) for 
> __getting__ the mail.  It IS also smtp for handing the mail to the machine
> that it is running on (though I guess that with the --mda procmail switch
> it probably uses pipes instead of port 25).

exactly.


> Again, though I will willingly admit to not knowing lots of stuff but what
> ISPs _receive_ mail from a user without using smtp to do it (other than the 
> completely proprietary systems such as AOL, Juno, etc.)?

None.  Your mail program either has support for your ISP's smtp server
directly (pine and netscape) or it doesn't and you use something like ssmtp
which does little more than put the mail on your ISP's mailhub.  (it will
deliver root and daemon mail to some user of your choice)

The problem we've hit now is that ssmtp doesn't queue mail.  Well, if it
can't send the message and resturns an error code, we can use it fine as it
is with a perl wrapper to fake a queue.  However, if it doesn't, we'll have
to modify the program, something that would be a good idea anyway.

If the utility you want doesn't exist, modify or build a wrapper around
something that does similar.  smmtp is small, which is what we want.


IMAP is a bi-directional protocol, BTW.


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 08:34:28PM -0700, Joey Hess wrote:
> > I haven't looked at it.  It's only 15k!  That would be a really good
> > choice if it actually does the job.  :-)
> 
> One large problem with ssmtp is that it has no queueing. If you try to send
> mail offline, it gets lost.

Does ssmtp return an error if you try to send when there's nobody there to
receive?  If so, a send queue can be added as a wrapper, and it could
probably be added to the program easy enough.


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 02, 1998 at 08:39:25PM -0700, Joey Hess wrote:
> > slrnpull should probably be seperated from slrn simply because there's
> > nothing in it that REQUIRES slrn other than that it puts things in
> > /var/spool/slrnpull (can be changed) and if you don't LIKE slrn you can
> > still have slrnpull, etc.
> 
> What news servers besides slrn support reading news directly from the news
> spool w/o a news server?

tin, nn, pine (if you call that a news reader), trn 


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Re: Initial partitions

[Bear Giles]

> > [1] I don't why my system always reboots in "read-only" mode now;
> 
> Umm, what kernel were you running before? 

Debian 1.3, from a Walnut Creek CD-ROM dated late last year.  It
was one of those "6-CD set!" deals; I bought the bundle so I could
install the best on my personal systems, yet still install the 
politically acceptable at work! :-)

N.B., the system *did* boot after I ran autoup.sh, and it rebooted
after I loaded a number of packages from hamm.  (no more than 25 
packages).  It didn't reboot after I downloaded and installed a
big chunk of hamm.  (My hamm directory is about 160 MB now, most
of it downloaded yesterday and most of it installed before I called
it a night.)

Further complicating the issue I loaded a minimal 1.3 into my CD-R 
scratch space (/dev/sda4).  I then upgraded to libc6, and installed 
lilo-20.  I could boot direct to /dev/sda4, but not /dev/sda1.  When 
I boot from /dev/sda4 I *can* modify the contents of /dev/sda1.  This
is true when running either libc5 or libc6.

I would show you the log messages, but (duh) the disk is read-only 
and the log messages aren't written.  I know that there are a lot of 
secondary failures since I can't mount /proc (which modifies /etc/mtab)?
I can't install modules, apparently for the same reason.  I can't run 
various services, since they write information to /var/run.  I can't 
write syslog messages to /dev/tty12, since I can't change ownership.
The system doesn't even know its own name, so my login prompt is 
"(none) Login:".  

Hmm; I think I'll try a few more tricks to grab the log messages...

Bear Giles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Rev" == Rev Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> manoj who is happy with sendmail and does have a dialup connection
>> and diald

Rev> How did you get sendmail to cooperate with dialup?

What do you mean by cooperate? I send mail using sendmail
 whenever I want to. On up-up, I do a sendmail -q. I download messages
 using fetchmail. As to my sendmail config, I append my own config
 file /etc/mail/sendmail.mc below.  Just edit out the HACK stuff, that
 is mostly anti-spam and local hacks.

Rev> And sendmail is still not suited to being easy to configure.

Fortunately, I do not find that to be the case. I have added
 several local HACKs and uploaded them into /usr/lib/sendmail.cf/hacks;
 and that was that. I found it quite easy to modify the guts of
 sendmail behaviour that way.

I do know it is fashinable to slander pore ole sendmail ;-)

Rev> sendmailconfig is "not that bad" but it's also "not that good" if
Rev> the intent is for a person who doesn't know anything beyond that
Rev> their smtp server is mail.ispdomain.com about it.

Oh, well, I guess like UNIX, sendmail is not for people who
 are not willing to scale the learning curve. And I do not personally
 think that the sendmail learning curve is that bad (I think it is
 easier than learning vi or ed ;-)

Rev> ssmtp is the right solution it looks like, probably along with
Rev> fetchmail and either procmail (this would IMO be preferred) or
Rev> deliver..

You mileage has evidently varied from mine.

manoj
-- 
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Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


divert(-1)
# This file is copyright 1996, 1997, 1998 Manoj srivastava
# This is distributed under the Artistic licence

divert(0)
VERSIONID(`@(#)manoj.mc 8.8 (Linux) 4/5/98')
OSTYPE(debian)dnl
FEATURE(masquerade_envelope)dnl
FEATURE(use_cw_file)dnl
FEATURE(use_ct_file)dnl
FEATURE(redirect)dnl
define(`confME_TOO', True)dnl
MAILER(local)dnl
MAILER(smtp)dnl
Cwdatasync.com
MASQUERADE_AS(datasync.com)dnl

## Custom configurations below (will be preserved)
HACK(use_ip)

HACK(check_rcpt4)
HACK(check_mail2)

HACK(manoj_rbl)
HACK(manoj_forward)


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Re: Yet another Linux distribution! :-)

[Rev. Joseph Carter]

On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:27:29AM +1000, Craig Sanders wrote:
> > smail is NASTY to configure over dialup links.  And getting worse it seems. 
> > I couldn't do it.  sendmail is clearly not suited for the task.  
>  ^^^
> 
> why?
> 
> sendmail configuration is a no-brainer with debian's sendmailconfig
> script.

I didn't understand it and I'm not quite clueless.  Once johnnie explained
what was meant by all but the most basic questions  well, THEN it didn't
work because my system was dialup.  Before I knew it, he was telling me to
edit sendmail.mc by hand and add a Cj line.  ...and a procmail line... 
..and a couple others...

The script didn't deal with the fact that I didn't have a static IP/name.


> it can handle probably 99% of cases likely to be needed by most
> users...all the user has to do is answer a few questions (which have
> sensible defaults).
> 
> configuring sendmail only becomes difficult when you need to do weird or
> complicated things.

procmail is a weird and complicated thing?
dynamic IPs are a weird and complicated thing?

If you have to edit these files by hand, the script doesn't deal with all
cases.


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Re: Preliminary intent to package - enlightenment

[vanco]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

On Sun, 3 May 1998, Jules Bean wrote:

> --On Sun, May 3, 1998 5:26 pm +0100 "Jules Bean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote: 
> 
> > Hi there...
> > 
> > Anyone out there already grabbed the enlightenment package, or have a
> reason
> > why it shouldn't be in slink?  If not, I hereby announce intent to package
> > enlightenment for slink/main.
> 
> Oops.
> 
> I withdraw this request.
> 
> Enlightenment is already being packaged - by [EMAIL PROTECTED]  I'll
> register as a developer, and go pick up a WNPP package..
> 
> Jules

There are several problems with the packaging of enlightenment. It's
menuing system is *not* easy to integrate with debian menu. This is simply
because of the flexible and highly detailed syntax it uses. It is not
modular in any way.
If enlightenment .14 is released before slink freezes, it will be
easier to integrate. .14 will have theme "templates" -- don't ask what
this means as it's fairly complicated and would only make sense to
somebody who has helped with the development of an enlightenment theme and
somewhat knows raster and mandrake.
.14 will also be a gnome compliant WM (and raster is working
around the clock on it to port it to GTK and CORBA... He's being paid by
redhat advanced development labs for work on imlib, enlightenment, and gtk
enhancement). This means that all gnome apps will work with their advanced
features from the enlightenment wm... A lot is coming to pass.
 
- ---
Aaron Van Couwenberghe -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|---> Debian GNU/Linux: http://www.debian.org  ftp://ftp.debian.org <-\
|-> Proud competitor in the race for World Domination <---|

Illusion web designs - http://www.sonic.net/~vanco - To be launched by June

PGP KeyID: 41119089 UserID: Aaron Van Couwenberghe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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