Alioth Project Approved - and now?

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

I recently registered an Alioth project and - call me stupid, but I have
obviousely missed some information - don't know how to proceed.  I try to
emphasize my problems by quoting relevant parts of the approval mail:



-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:20:50 +
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

^^^
H, this sound not good for the sake of further communication.
Why not including a mail address which can be really used?


To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ISO-8859-1] Alioth Project Approved

Your project registration for Alioth has been approved.

Project Full Name:  EMBOSS Packaging
Project Unix Name:  pkg-emboss
CVS Server: cvs.pkg-emboss.alioth.debian.org
Shell/Web Server:   pkg-emboss.alioth.debian.org

...

Please note that all shell/CVS accounts are closed to telnet and only
work with SSH1.

Hmmm, why SSH1 and even telnet and not SSH2?


We highly suggest that you now visit Alioth and create a public
description for your project. This can be done by visiting your project
page while logged in, and selecting 'Project Admin' from the menus
on the left (or by visiting 
http://alioth.debian.org/project/admin/?group_id=30707
after login).

I don't understand this.  When asking for the project I gave a short
description and a long description of the project.  The short description
is visible from the project page.  What does this paragraph mean by
  "create a public description for your project" ?


Let us know if there is anything we can do to help you.

-- the Alioth crew

Nice, but _how_ can I contact the Alioth crew.  Except of the noreply address
I have no clue from this mail.  I would like to ask for a SVN archive and for
a project mailing list, but I have no idea how to proceed.

Kind regards

 Andreas.


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Re: Greylisting for @debian.org email, please

[Stig Sandbeck Mathisen]

Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I fully disagree, greylisting is really painful

Since this is contrary to my experience with greylisting, I'd like to
hear more about your experiences with it, and why you consider
greylisting "really painful".

I'm also interested in hearing about the size of the mail platforms
you've used it on, and wether the mail platforms are list-heavy or
user-heavy, and mostly incoming or outgoing traffic.

-- 
Stig Sandbeck Mathisen


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Re: Alioth Project Approved - and now?

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 09:51:07AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
>>-- Forwarded message --
>>Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:20:50 +
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
^^^
> H, this sound not good for the sake of further communication.
> Why not including a mail address which can be really used?

I suppose they prefer you to use
https://alioth.debian.org/tracker/?group_id=1&atid=21 . Yes, it
could be mentioned in the mail.

>>Please note that all shell/CVS accounts are closed to telnet and only
>>work with SSH1.

> Hmmm, why SSH1 and even telnet and not SSH2?

You misread: There is NO telnet. As for SSH2, it works fine, but SSH1
doesn't work. Probably a typo  .

> I would like to ask for a SVN archive

Go to
https://alioth.debian.org/tracker/?func=add&group_id=1&atid=21,
category "SubVersioN", summary "svn repository for pkg-emboss", put a
nice "please give use an svn repo" message in "description", press
"submit".

(I found out about the procedure by Googling... It is explained on
 http://svn.debian.org/ .)

> and for a project mailing list,

That's easier: Go to https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pkg-emboss/,
press "lists", then "admin", then "Add Mailing List".

-- 
Lionel


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Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[David Pashley]

On Jun 27, 2005 at 00:46, W. Borgert praised the llamas by saying:
> Package: wnpp
> Severity: wishlist
> Owner: "W. Borgert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> Package name: evilfinder
> Version : 666(?)
> Upstream Author : Michal Zalewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> URL : http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/evilfinder/ef.shtml
> License : under clarification, hopefully GPL
> Description : proves that any given subject is evil
> 
> Example output for input "Debian":
> 

Do we really need this in the archive? Can we not add this to another
package under games? It is rather small and doesn't serve a significant
amount of functionality.

david% wc -l *.c
  746 ef.c
   71 shuffle.c
  817 total


-- 
David Pashley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


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Re: Greylisting for @debian.org email, please

[Pierre Habouzit]

Le Lun 27 Juin 2005 10:14, Stig Sandbeck Mathisen a écrit :
> Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I fully disagree, greylisting is really painful
>
> Since this is contrary to my experience with greylisting, I'd like to
> hear more about your experiences with it, and why you consider
> greylisting "really painful".

I already did : for personnal use (and I use my @debian.org address for 
some debian related personnal discussions, like discussions with an 
uploader I sponsor or alike) I find that 30minutes delays are not 
acceptable (and I know that greylisting last only 5 minutes, but it's a 
fact that requeue of a mail is done 30 minutes after the first try for 
most of the SMTP server on the planet).

I don't ask a <5s delay for every mail I send/receive, but if a mail 
takes more than 2-3 minutes to be delivered, then this is useless.

> I'm also interested in hearing about the size of the mail platforms
> you've used it on, and wether the mail platforms are list-heavy or
> user-heavy, and mostly incoming or outgoing traffic.

On a mail platform where you use greylisting, you generally have a boost 
in performances. *BUT* you punish all the MX that deliver mail to you. 
greylisting put the charge on the SMTP server before you, and those MX 
will deliver mails slower to you.

like I said many times in that thread, greylist is a good solution to 
filter spam with quite no false positive, that's true. *BUT* it's a bad 
idea to use it for *every* mail. A mail that (e.g.) :
 - is SPF-clean
 - comes from hotst that are RBL-clean
 - 
should not suffer from greylisting.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: Alioth Project Approved - and now?

[Andreas Tille]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:


On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 09:51:07AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:20:50 +
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

   ^^^

H, this sound not good for the sake of further communication.
Why not including a mail address which can be really used?


I suppose they prefer you to use
https://alioth.debian.org/tracker/?group_id=1&atid=21 . Yes, it
could be mentioned in the mail.

s/could/should/  ;-)


Please note that all shell/CVS accounts are closed to telnet and only
work with SSH1.



Hmmm, why SSH1 and even telnet and not SSH2?


You misread: There is NO telnet. As for SSH2, it works fine, but SSH1
doesn't work. Probably a typo  .

I guessed this because I always worked with ssh2 sucessfully.  Could this
please be rephrased.


I would like to ask for a SVN archive


Go to
https://alioth.debian.org/tracker/?func=add&group_id=1&atid=21,
category "SubVersioN", summary "svn repository for pkg-emboss", put a
nice "please give use an svn repo" message in "description", press
"submit".

(I found out about the procedure by Googling... It is explained on
http://svn.debian.org/ .)

Ahh, you obviousely did a better Googling than me - I tried it as well but
perhaps used the wrong words.


and for a project mailing list,


That's easier: Go to https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pkg-emboss/,
press "lists", then "admin", then "Add Mailing List".

Well, this is really easy.

Finally I have to admit that this mail was mainly about improving the message
text which is send for new projects.  Perhaps some links to some FAQs or such
basic things you wrote might enhance the text drastically.

Kind regards

 Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de


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Re: Alioth Project Approved - and now?

[Miles Bader]

Lionel Elie Mamane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Hmmm, why SSH1 and even telnet and not SSH2?
>
> You misread: There is NO telnet. As for SSH2, it works fine, but SSH1
> doesn't work. Probably a typo  .

Does anyone still use ssh1?  It seems quite common for it not to be
supported these days...

-Miles
-- 
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 where four map sheets join."   -- Anon. British Officer in WW I


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Re: Announcing a new book: The Debian System -- Concepts and Techniques

[Martin Dickopp]

martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I am pleased to announce the availability of my new (English) book
> "The Debian System",

Congratulations, I'll order a copy soon! :)

> The hardcover edition will be available in stores in the beginning
> of July. A list of online shops stocking it is kept up to date on
> the web site[2] (please let me know which ones I'm missing).
>
>   2. http://debiansystem.info/order

I would be nice if you could include www.bookzilla.de.

Bookzilla is a cooperation between the largest German wholesale book
dealer Libri (i.e. Bookzilla offers the complete Libri assortment) and
two companies. They donate 5% of every sale to the FSF Europe.

Martin


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Re: And now for something completely different... etch!

[Paul TBBle Hampson]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 09:58:31PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> * Paul TBBle Hampson 

> | The charset of your terminal is orthogonal to the charset you're
> | talking on the IRC network with to my mind, since even the built-in
> | recode support lets you set a default charset for IRC traffic.

> No, it's not, since at least one of the most popular IRC clients
> (irssi) doesn't have recode support (yet).

Which version are you running? There's recode.pl and charsetwars.pl
in irssi-scripts in Woody, and if you grab a CVS build, there's
recode support built in too. (Actually, I don't know that charsetwars.pl
was in Woody. I only discovered it recently. ^_^)

I've been using irssi from a UTF-8 terminal on SJIS channels on my
Woody web server since September 2003, at least. The enormous time
between irssi releases means I've had to run a CVS version on my
unstable local box for about twelve months, to fix interesting
DCC and frontend bugs.

-- 
---
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8th year CompSci/Asian Studies student, ANU
The Boss, Bubblesworth Pty Ltd (ABN: 51 095 284 361)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Announcing a new book: The Debian System -- Concepts and Techniques

[Raphaël Hertzog]

Le lundi 27 juin 2005 à 03:05 +0200, martin f krafft a écrit :
> Dear all,

Hello Martin,

> I am pleased to announce the availability of my new (English) book
> "The Debian System", which Open Source Press[0] introduced at the

Congratulations ! I know how difficult it is to write a book ...

>   1. http://debianbook.info

I'm a bit annoyed by your use of a domain called "debianbook.info".
You're not the only one having written a book about Debian as you can
see on :
http://www.debian.org/doc/books

It's not fair for all the other authors to "accaparate" such a name. You
haven't written THE Debian book but a book about Debian like others have
done.

I wonder if the Debian trademark should apply to your domain name ...
I'm sure your book won't hurt the Debian project so I have no reason to
(try to) ask Debian to forbid you using the Debian trademark.

However it would be fair for other authors like me to not use such an
ambiguous domain name. 

IMHO, the best way to use such a domain is to make it point to the URL
given above (the list of books on the Debian website). I hope you
understand my point of view.

Regards,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: Ongoing Firefox (and Thunderbird) Trademark problems

[Martin Waitz]

hoi :)

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 12:18:19AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote:
> The whole question is whether Debian can accept a Debian-specific
> agreement to call Firefox "Firefox".

sure, and the consensus seems to be that there is no problem in
doing so.

It's only you who doesn't want to accept that.

You've done a great job in maintaining firefox, please don't
rename your package based on some personal differences with the
mozilla trademark policy.

-- 
Martin Waitz


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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[Paul TBBle Hampson]

On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 02:43:28PM +0900, Junichi Uekawa wrote:
> 2. helper information to allow tools like deborphan to work correctly.

What about adding a 'data' section, parallel to 'libs', which deborphan also
lists by default?

It wouldn't solve every case, but it certainly seems like a good place to file
*-data packages.

I think requiring a program to be installed to keep a data package installed is
daft. If I pick a hypothetical example, if we required a dictionary to be
installed at the same time as edict, then edict couldn't be used by local
scripts without dragging in unused dictionary software.

-- 
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8th year CompSci/Asian Studies student, ANU
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RE: Compiling and using glibc-2.2 under Debian Sarge

[Magik]

> A side comment.  Not having heard of omni-bot I went to that web site
> and looked for something that would tell me about it.  I may be blind
> but after looking I still don't know what it is.

It's an AI framework for variuos games/mods. Currently mainly supporting the
Enemy Territory engine but HL2 support is already in the works.

> It is interesting to hear this information.  Because usually we always
> hear complaints about how the Debian released stable old and outdated.
> Hearing you say this means that we are not quite as old and outdated
> as people would have us believe. :-)

Hehe, yea.

> Have you considered shipping the shared libraries you need with your
> binary and encapsulating your binaries with a wrapper to use your
> private shared libraries?  This works well for me for various local
> tools not shipped as a debian package.

Don't think that will be an option as we need to be able to ship "inside"
other mods, e.g. for ETF, and it would probalby bloat the whole package
somewhat.

> I think the typical answer will be to compile in a woody chroot.
> There are several different packages to help such as pbuilder and
> dchroot.  This works quite well for C programs because gcc is very
> mature and the woody default gcc compiler is sufficient for most
> tasks.  But if you have a C++ program then you are stuck using the
> woody g++ and that is not sufficient for many modern C++ programs.

Unfortunately, in our main lib we use C++ and not just plain C. That's why I
think the Woody compiler might be somewhat outdated for our purpose. Maybe I
can find a backport or something, tho.
Think I'll try that.

Thx a lot!
Marc aka Magik


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Re: Referring http://debblue.debian.net

[Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo]

On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 04:25:14PM +0200, Jaap Haitsma wrote:
> Hi,

Hello. 

> A while ago I sent a mail to this list if anybody could host debblue for 
> me. Alexander Wirt was so kind to do this for me. What still needs to be 
> done is that http://debblue.debian.net has to be set to it's new 
> webserver location. The new webserver location is
> http://ned.snow-crash.org/debblue
> 
> The guy, amu at debian dot org who setup the http://debblue.debian.net 
> unfortunately does not react to my mails asking him to redirect 
> http://debblue.debian.net to it's new home.
> 
> Is there anybody else who can redirect this address? I'm regularly 
> getting mails of users who are looking for debblue.

It can be changed via mail2ldap gateway. More information at
http://db.debian.org/doc-mail.html

regards
fEnIo
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Re: Alioth Project Approved - and now?

[Colin Watson]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 05:43:24PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> Lionel Elie Mamane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > You misread: There is NO telnet. As for SSH2, it works fine, but SSH1
> > doesn't work. Probably a typo  .
> 
> Does anyone still use ssh1?  It seems quite common for it not to be
> supported these days...

One machine I use fairly frequently as a terminal is a PowerMac running
Mac OS 8, where knowledgeable people tell me no SSH2 client is available
and so I'm stuck with SSH1. Apart from that, it's increasingly rare, and
I was happy to remove the debconf support for it from the openssh
package recently.

-- 
Colin Watson   [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Alioth Project Approved - and now?

[Giuseppe Sacco]

Il giorno lun, 27/06/2005 alle 17.43 +0900, Miles Bader ha scritto:
> Lionel Elie Mamane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> Hmmm, why SSH1 and even telnet and not SSH2?
> >
> > You misread: There is NO telnet. As for SSH2, it works fine, but SSH1
> > doesn't work. Probably a typo  .
> 
> Does anyone still use ssh1?  It seems quite common for it not to be
> supported these days...

I do. I use ssh1 since it is very quick compared to ssh2. I use it when
accessing slow virtual machines (bochs) and when connecting from PDA
devices.

Bye,
Giuseppe


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Libtool and packaging

[Alexis Papadopoulos]

Hello,

I'm actually trying to create a .deb package from sources using
automake, autoconf and libtool. The resulting files consist of some
shell scripts, a shared library and some binaries that must be linked to it.

I'm having the following problem :
the binaries are "temporarily" linked with lib*.la and put into the
.libs directories. When 'make install' is called from debian/rules
though, the final linking with the lib*.so shared library fails because
it cannot be found. The upstream author first installed it in /usr/lib,
and then made the libtool calls. I know that I can inform libtool of the
location of the lib*.so library, but the problem is that given the fact
that I'm installing in a temporary location (debian/mypackage/), the
linking will be made against debian/mypackage/usr/lib/lib*.so. What I
want to do, is to link against /usr/lib/lib*.so even though it is not
there yet. How can that be accomplished ?

I downloaded the flac source, since it used the autotools and libtool,
while building binaries and shared libraries. They seem to use libtool's
relink mode with -rpath. Problem is that I'm not familiar with libtool,
and would like to know if it's possible to avoid this method, by using
'libtool install' and just forcing it to link against /usr/lib/lib*.so

Hope I was clear enough, thanks in advance

Alexis Papadopoulos


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Re: Ongoing Firefox (and Thunderbird) Trademark problems

[Simon Huggins]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 11:03:37AM +0200, Martin Waitz wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 12:18:19AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote:
> > The whole question is whether Debian can accept a Debian-specific
> > agreement to call Firefox "Firefox".
> sure, and the consensus seems to be that there is no problem in doing
> so.

> It's only you who doesn't want to accept that.

That's unfair.  I would have summarised more as "there's no problem
doing so as long as Mozilla are reasonable in Debian's eyes".  I don't
want Eric to accept the agreement if for every change of code he has to
run to Gervase and ask nicely. (note that's not quite what's happening
here, rather it's the other way around - the code can be changed but if
it's changed in a way that they don't like they could withdraw use of
the mark)

Mozilla however don't have any objective way of saying whether something
is or isn't good quality and appear to want to micromanage these things.

Gervase, perhaps you could come up with a better proposal that was
objective and could be applied to all parties whilst not being overly
onerous so that people meeting some specific guidelines for quality
could use the trademarked name (oh and solve world peace, hunger and
poverty at the same time, ta ;)).  I believe Eric's asked for this in
the past in this thread.  Is it really such an impossible goal?  I think
it's the uncertainty that scares people here - the fact that if we don't
meet some target we can't see or argue against we might have the license
to use the trademark removed suddenly.

I imagine that the packages will be renamed iceweasel or whatever as
soon as Mozilla make some unpopular decision but I don't see how that
serves Debian or Mozilla particularly.  Sadly the way this thread is
going I can all too clearly see Mozilla making some silly ruling in the
future which doesn't sit well with Debian :(

> You've done a great job in maintaining firefox, please don't rename
> your package based on some personal differences with the mozilla
> trademark policy.

He's not intending to rename it or accept the trademark agreement if you
read the original post AFAIK.

Simon.

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problem with unstable -> testing package migration?

[sean finney]

hey,

about a week ago i uploaded a package with priority=high to unstable
to fix a security-related bug.  for some reason, that package hasn't
yet made it into unstable:

http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/cacti.html

anyone know more about this?  i also notice the policy 3.6.2 vs 3.6.1
problem that someone else reported earlier (iirc they were told it
should be cleared up in 24 hours, and that was also around a week ago).


sean

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Re: Announcing a new book: The Debian System -- Concepts and Techniques

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Raphaël Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.06.27.1102 +0200]:
> >   1. http://debianbook.info
> 
> I'm a bit annoyed by your use of a domain called "debianbook.info".
> You're not the only one having written a book about Debian as you can
> see on :
> http://www.debian.org/doc/books

Fair enough. Well, debiansystem.info is the main book's website,
which I guess is more appropriate. Would it be better if I replaced
debianbook.info with a website which prominently links to the other
books as well?

While you're at it, maybe you can also take care of debianbook.com?

-- 
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Re: Announcing a new book: The Debian System -- Concepts and Techniques

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Stephen Birch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.06.27.1157 +0200]:
> I went to amazon.co.uk to order a copy, but it isn't listed yet :-(
> 
> They often list books *before* they become available so you may want
> to contact them and provide details.

Don't worry, we did. It just so happens that amazon.co.uk is not
really cooperative these days. Either it's just bad luck on our
side, or they are seriously defective currently.

I am confident that the situation will resolve itself during the
remainder of this week. Maybe I should have waited just a tad bit
longer with the announcement, but I just grew impatient. :)

While we're at it: we are also working on distribution channels in
the US and Australia, as well as other parts of the globe.
Everything is going as planned, but since we are going via another
publisher at least in the US, it might take until next week for the
book to become available.

Thanks for your patience.

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"in any hierarchy, each individual rises
 to his own level of incompetence,
 and then remains there."
   -- murphy (after dr. laurence j. peter)


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Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[W. Borgert]

Quoting David Pashley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Do we really need this in the archive? Can we not add this to another
> package under games? It is rather small and doesn't serve a significant
> amount of functionality.

Yes.  Please suggest a package.


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Highly Recommended Softabs WN

[Sybil Estes]

"Ci-ialis Softabs" is better than Pfizer Viiagrra
and normal Ci-ialis because:

- Guaaraantees 36 hours lasting
- Safe to take, no side effects at all
- Boost and increase se-xual performance
- Haarder e-rectiions and quick recharge
- Proven and certified by experts and doctors
- only $3.99 per tabs

Cllick heree:
http://confuting.com/cs/?ronn











o-ut of mai-lling lisst:
http://confuting.com/rm.php?ronn
V0OXL


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Re: Upload new version of gaim-extendedprefs

[Arjan Oosting]

Op ma, 27-06-2005 te 10:56 +0100, schreef Neil McGovern:
> Hi there, you appear to be depending on build-essential without using a
> versioned depends.
> 
> In general a package should not depend on build essential packages but
> if it must do so, the depends should have a version string.
Hi Neil,

I'm CC this to debian-devel because I want to know what other people
think about build-depending on build-essential. I hope you don't mind.

I agree it isn't necessary, which is stated in policy section 4.2 but
section 4  and section 7 do not contain any statement saying that every
build dependency on build-essential should be versioned. 

As it is nowhere forbidden in the policy and I use CDBS to generate
debian/control from debian/control.in (not a build-time though) and CDBS
adds the reference to build-essential in the Build-Depends, I am
inclined to leave build-essential in the Build-Depends list. 

If it really should not be done, maybe a check could be added to lintian
and/or linda and CDBS and the policy should be updated.
 
Also some of the other packages which use CDBS (gnome-panel for
instance) have a unversioned build dependency on build-essential. 

Greetings Arjan Oosting


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Re: Upload new version of gaim-extendedprefs

[Ondrej Sury]

On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 15:35 +0200, Arjan Oosting wrote:
> As it is nowhere forbidden in the policy and I use CDBS to generate
> debian/control from debian/control.in (not a build-time though) and CDBS
> adds the reference to build-essential in the Build-Depends, I am
> inclined to leave build-essential in the Build-Depends list. 

That's not true.  CDBS don't add build-essential to Build-Depends.
(Maybe you can tell CDBS to mangle Build-Depends, but I even don't know
how to do it :-).

f.e. libgnome (cdbs based package):

Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 4.0.0), libxml2-dev (>= 2.4.22),
libbz2-dev, libgnomevfs2-dev (>= 2.7.91-3), libbonobo2-dev (>= 2.6.0-2),
libpopt-dev, libxslt1-dev (>= 1.1.2), zlib1g-dev, intltool,
libgconf2-dev (>= 2.7.92), liborbit2-dev (>= 1:2.10.2-1.1), libesd0-dev,
libglib2.0-dev (>= 2.4.1-2), cdbs, gnome-pkg-tools

Ondrej/
-- 
Ondrej Sury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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mass bug filing for libjack dependant packages

[Robert Jordens]

Hello!

I uploaded a new release of jack-audio-connection-kit to unstable. The
following source packages have been built against libjack0.80.0-dev and
must now be rebuilt against libjack0.100.0-dev due to incompatible API
changes. I plan to file important bugs and then upgrade them to
something RC after a few weeks. Is that OK?

Robert.



jack-audio-connection-kit xmms-jack timidity timemachine terminatorx
tapiir supercollider snd rezound qjackctl puredata muse fluidsynth
alsa-plugins alsa-lib ardour ladcca jack-tools horgand gst-plugins galan
freqtweak fluidsynth ecawave ecasound2.2 ecamegapedal cheesetracker
bitscope ardour alsaplayer jack-audio-connection-kit gst-plugins0.8
zynaddsubfx xmms-jackasyn xmms-jack timidity timemachine terminatorx
tapiir supercollider stk spiralsynthmodular specimen snd rosegarden4
rezound qjackctl puredata muse meterbridge fluidsynth alsa-plugins
alsa-lib ardour ladcca koffice jamin jackeq jack-tools jack-rack
hydrogen horgand galan freqtweak ecawave ecasound2.2 ecasound
ecamegapedal creox cheesetracker brutefir bitscope ardour ams alsaplayer
bio2jack jack-audio-connection-kit gst-plugins0.8 bio2jack thinksynth
arts xmms-jack hydrogen alsaplayer zynaddsubfx xmms-jackasyn xmms-jack
timidity timemachine terminatorx tapiir supercollider stk
spiralsynthmodular specimen sooperlooper snd seq24 rosegarden4 rezound
qjackctl puredata kdeaddons kdemultimedia muse meterbridge linphone
kdebase libjackasyn jack-audio-connection-kit fluidsynth alsa-plugins
alsa-lib kdemultimedia arts allegro4.1 ladcca kdenetwork kdeartwork
kdemultimedia koffice kdeaddons knights kdelibs kdemultimedia k3b
kdemultimedia jamin jackeq jack-audio-connection-kit jack-tools
jack-rack hydrogen horgand gst-plugins0.8 galan freqtweak ecawave
ecasound2.2 ecasound ecamegapedal creox cheesetracker brutefir bitscope
basket kdemultimedia ardour amsynth ams alsaplayer kdemultimedia



-- 
Thus spake the master programmer:
"Let the programmers be many and the managers few -- then all will
be productive."
-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"


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Re: Upload new version of gaim-extendedprefs

[Arjan Oosting]

Op ma, 27-06-2005 te 15:45 +0200, schreef Ondrej Sury:
> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 15:35 +0200, Arjan Oosting wrote:
> > As it is nowhere forbidden in the policy and I use CDBS to generate
> > debian/control from debian/control.in (not a build-time though) and CDBS
> > adds the reference to build-essential in the Build-Depends, I am
> > inclined to leave build-essential in the Build-Depends list. 
> 
> That's not true.  CDBS don't add build-essential to Build-Depends.
> (Maybe you can tell CDBS to mangle Build-Depends, but I even don't know
> how to do it :-).

If you use DEB_AUTO_UPDATE_DEBIAN_CONTROl in your debian/rules, CDBS
will generate debian/control from your debian/control.in. When CDBS does
this it replaces @cdbs@ with something like cdbs (>= 0.4.23-1.1),
debhelper (>= 4.1.0), patchutils (>= 0.2.25) depending on which features
of cdbs you use. 

Some packages use the @cdbs@ replacement other packages don't, such as
libgnome, but if you do then build-essential is added to your
build-depends line. Maybe some of the CDBS developers can explain why
build-essential is added in the first place? 

But whether or not this is a good feature of CDBS, the real question is
whether build dependencies on build-essential are only allowed when they
are versioned? 

Greetings Arjan Oosting 


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Re: problem with unstable -> testing package migration?

[Jeroen van Wolffelaar]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 08:33:26AM -0400, sean finney wrote:
> hey,
> 
> about a week ago i uploaded a package with priority=high to unstable
> to fix a security-related bug.  for some reason, that package hasn't
> yet made it into unstable:
> 
> http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/cacti.html

Following the link on 'check why', I see "going in today":
http://bjorn.haxx.se/debian/testing.pl?package=cacti

Indeed, on next mirror pulse, cacti will be in testing. I didn't really
look into this, but I assume the delay is related to the announced[1]
ftp-master outage. Several services and scripts have been temporarily
disabled due to this, including testing propagation.
 
> anyone know more about this?  i also notice the policy 3.6.2 vs 3.6.1
> problem that someone else reported earlier (iirc they were told it
> should be cleared up in 24 hours, and that was also around a week ago).

The current policy version is 3.6.2, your package has 3.6.1. The notice
is correct.

$ grep ^Standard /org/ftp.debian.org/ftp/pool/main/c/cacti/cacti_0.8.6e-1.dsc
Standards-Version: 3.6.1
$

--Jeroen

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/06/msg00016.html

-- 
Jeroen van Wolffelaar
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber & MSN; ICQ: 33944357)
http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl

Re: Upload new version of gaim-extendedprefs

[Jeroen van Wolffelaar]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 04:22:54PM +0200, Arjan Oosting wrote:
> But whether or not this is a good feature of CDBS, the real question is
> whether build dependencies on build-essential are only allowed when they
> are versioned? 

Well, they only make *sense* when versioned -- an unversioned depends
on all build essential packages is already implied by policy, and as
such it's only cruft on the build-depends line (but it doesn't hurt, so
it's merely a cosmetic issue).

--Jeroen

-- 
Jeroen van Wolffelaar
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber & MSN; ICQ: 33944357)
http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl

Re: problem with unstable -> testing package migration?

[Adam Heath]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, sean finney wrote:

> hey,
>
> about a week ago i uploaded a package with priority=high to unstable
> to fix a security-related bug.  for some reason, that package hasn't
> yet made it into unstable:
>
> http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/cacti.html
>
> anyone know more about this?  i also notice the policy 3.6.2 vs 3.6.1
> problem that someone else reported earlier (iirc they were told it
> should be cleared up in 24 hours, and that was also around a week ago).

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/06/msg00016.html


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Re: dummy packages and "Replaces:" field

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em Sex, 2005-06-24 às 13:51 +0200, Ondrej Sury escreveu:
> > Correct. And Conflicts: with version <= ${Source-Version} of both, if
> > icewmcp has a greater version than both. I guess you'll need to use an
> > epoch if not. 
> 
> Only if dummy packages come from same source as icewmcp.  If he wants to
> avoid epoching he could just create dummy source package...  (At least I
> think so :-).

Looks even more elegant, indeed.

See ya,

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha 
Debian:    *  



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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em Sex, 2005-06-24 às 17:30 +0200, Ondrej Sury escreveu:
> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 17:21 +0200, Bill Allombert wrote:
> > 
> > 1) foo and foo-data. There is usualy no reason for foo-data to depend
> > on foo. foo-data does not provide user-visible interface, only data,
> > so it does not need to depend on foo. 
> 
> This is usually used as way how to also uninstall foo-data when you
> uninstall foo.
> 
> But I agree that this is just cosmetic compared to problems created by
> circular dependencies...

This should really be fixed in the packaging tool -- aptitude will
handle this very elegantly, maybe bringing its expanded package states
to libapt itself would be nice -- rather than using this kind of trick.

See ya,

-- 
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Debian:    *  



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Re: Planning a libglade to libglade2 transition

[Andrea Mennucc]

the same for me: I develop and mantain some gtk packages

there is no such thing as an "easy transition from gtk1 to gtk2"

Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> 
>> And how hard is that?  It seems that tons of stuff in the archive
>> still requires GTK1.  It would be great to move them all to GTK2.
> 
> Unfortunately it's not that simple.  I'm upstream for two packages using
> GTK1 and I spended some time for investigating how hard would be the
> move.  Even if I would like to switch to GTK2 it would cost so much time
> that other projects have much higher priority.  It is kind of "I can
> perfectly use this software as it is" and thus I wished somebody would
> lend me his time travel device to give me an additional week of live time
> to port these projects but at current state I see no chance to do this
> soon (even if I would love to).
> 
> Kind regards
> 
>  Andreas.
> 


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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[Adrian von Bidder]

On Monday 27 June 2005 18.15, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:
[circular dependencies]

[uninstalling foo-data at libfoo uninstall]
> This should really be fixed in the packaging tool -- aptitude will
> handle this very elegantly, maybe bringing its expanded package states
> to libapt itself would be nice -- rather than using this kind of trick.

Possibly.  And - as a clarification of the policy, really - I'd vote for 
having one of the the next dpkg and apt releases strictly enforcing 
dependencies, making packages with circular dependencies uninstallable.

(But, in the spirit of good communication, this should probably be announced 
on d-d-a, or at least by bugs on all affected packages.)

cheers
-- vbi

-- 
A la fuerza, ni los zapatos entran.


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Bug#315976: ITP: lmms -- Linux Multimedia Studio

[Florian Ragwitz]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Florian Ragwitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

* Package name: lmms
  Version : 0.0.9
  Upstream Author : Tobias Doerffel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://lmms.sf.net/
* License : GPL
  Description : Linux Multimedia Studio

 LMMS aims to be a free alternative to popular (but commercial and
 closed-source) programs such as FruityLoops, Cubase and Logic. LMMS combines
 the features of a tracker/sequencer-program
 (pattern-/channel-/sample-/song-/effect-management) and those of powerful
 synthesizers in a modern, user-friendly and easy to use graphical
 user-interface. Although Techno/Trance is the music that can be written with
 LMMS best, you can write your own music of any genre, because it's no problem
 to use your own samples or just the typical wave-shape of an instrument. Of
 course there're (let's better say "will be"!) many effects, you can apply to
 your instruments/channels, like reverb, delay, distortion and many more.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 3.1
  APT prefers testing
  APT policy: (500, 'testing')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Kernel: Linux 2.6.7-1-686
Locale: LANG=C, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (charmap=ISO-8859-15)


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Re: mass bug filing for libjack dependant packages

[Philipp Kern]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Robert Jordens wrote:
> I uploaded a new release of jack-audio-connection-kit to unstable. The
> following source packages have been built against libjack0.80.0-dev and
> must now be rebuilt against libjack0.100.0-dev due to incompatible API
> changes. I plan to file important bugs and then upgrade them to
> something RC after a few weeks. Is that OK?

While you probably mean ABI changes instead of incompatible API changes,
I would recommend that you first mail all maintainers by using the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] aliases before you mass file any bugs. You
could do this after some weeks, with those packages where nothing happened.

Kind regards,
Philipp Kern
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iEYEARECAAYFAkLANrQACgkQ7Ro5M7LPzdigtQCdFBUwA2OewEnyUP1EhpCTbJIF
7TQAn1/ZEX2JwmQ15esEV0ahQRmKXpDi
=fX+n
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em Sex, 2005-06-24 às 23:57 +0200, Ondrej Sury escreveu:
> One thing is very clear:
> 
> 1. this is (a sort of) abuse of Depends field

Yes.

> 2. we need reverse Suggest/Recommends field, ie. something like
> Recommends-Uninstall: foo-data

No, all we need is a better handling of what we have today in our
package managers (read APT frontends). A -data package should not really
be presented to the user as something that might add functionality to
his system, but simply as a 'helper package' for another one.

Having a separate 'data' section and telling package managers to
'second-class' libs, data and some other fields might be a good idea. 

> (well, same can be applied to -doc, -common, etc.)

doc is a different problem IMO, it does provide functionality, even on
systems which do not have 'foo' installed. You might want to take a look
at apache's docs from your workstation while working on a server over
ssh and there are many other examples of use for the doc case.

See ya,

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha 
Debian:    *  



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Re: Referring http://debblue.debian.net

[Philipp Kern]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo wrote:
> It can be changed via mail2ldap gateway. More information at
> http://db.debian.org/doc-mail.html

Are zonefile entries "owned" by those who once set it up? They are at
least saved in their LDAP records, so probably others cannot modify it?

Kind regards,
Philipp Kern
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dDUAoIcAXComxyQqKwQjSUBfO2XbmlUM
=Bw0W
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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> On 6/25/05, John H. Robinson, IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I can see where the game would be installed on the client system, and
> > the data would live on the file server under /usr/share. Currently, the
> > only way to do this is by having installed broken packages, and to copy
> > the /etc/amphetamine files from the filer onto the client.
> 
> Why would you only install the data and not the binaries on the file
> server (filer?)?

Because you are sharing /usr/share and not /usr ?

FHS 2.3:
/usr/share : Architecture-independent data

One filer to rule all the architectures. Essentially, the same reason we
make -data packages to begin with. If you have a mixed environment (x86,
amd64, sparc, ppc) then you can have one /usr/share for all of them.

-- 
John H. Robinson, IV  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http  
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, sbih.org ( )(:[
as apparently my cats have learned how to type.  spiders.html  


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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[Olaf van der Spek]

On 6/27/05, John H. Robinson, IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> > On 6/25/05, John H. Robinson, IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I can see where the game would be installed on the client system, and
> > > the data would live on the file server under /usr/share. Currently, the
> > > only way to do this is by having installed broken packages, and to copy
> > > the /etc/amphetamine files from the filer onto the client.
> >
> > Why would you only install the data and not the binaries on the file
> > server (filer?)?
> 
> Because you are sharing /usr/share and not /usr ?
> 
> FHS 2.3:
> /usr/share : Architecture-independent data
> 
> One filer to rule all the architectures. Essentially, the same reason we

What is a filer?

> make -data packages to begin with. If you have a mixed environment (x86,
> amd64, sparc, ppc) then you can have one /usr/share for all of them.

I understand that part, but I'd expect binaries to be able to live on
a file servers too, even for multiple architectures.

AIDEZ MOI SVP

[dabila korotoum]

dabilakorotoum
 
01bp 326 abidjan01hotel manvy permettez -moi de vous informer de mon desir de cooperer avec vous. je me nomme dabila korotoum, 25 ans, fille de feu colonnel dabila issouf, sauvagement assassine lors du coup d'etat du 19 septembre en cote d' ivoire . mon pere etait jusqu'a sa mort aide de camp du general robert guei ex president de la republique de côte d'Ivoire qui fut egalement assassine ce meme jour par la milice de l'actuel president laurent gbagbo.après la mort de mon père , ma mère detenait une acte notarie qui dit que je suis herritiere de 6.5millions dollars que mon pere a depose dans une banque de la place . et ma mère ne pouvant plus supporter le decès de mon père mourrut 4 mois plus tard des suites d'une hypertension arterielle .Ainsi au chevet de son lit de malade, elle me remit le document justifiant la présence de cet argent et prouvant de par là meme que j'en suis le proprietaire . je vous rapelle que je suis de
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 perpetuelles dont je suis victimes,s'il vous plait tout ceci doit rester secret et confidentiel car ma vie en depend vous  .Merci pour votre aide. 
 
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Appel audio GRATUIT partout dans le monde avec le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger 
Téléchargez le ici !

Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> On 6/27/05, John H. Robinson, IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> > > On 6/25/05, John H. Robinson, IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > I can see where the game would be installed on the client system, and
> > > > the data would live on the file server under /usr/share. Currently, the
> > > > only way to do this is by having installed broken packages, and to copy
> > > > the /etc/amphetamine files from the filer onto the client.
> > >
> > > Why would you only install the data and not the binaries on the file
> > > server (filer?)?
> > 
> > Because you are sharing /usr/share and not /usr ?
> > 
> > FHS 2.3:
> > /usr/share : Architecture-independent data
> > 
> > One filer to rule all the architectures. Essentially, the same reason we
> 
> What is a filer?

A file server.

> > make -data packages to begin with. If you have a mixed environment (x86,
> > amd64, sparc, ppc) then you can have one /usr/share for all of them.
> 
> I understand that part, but I'd expect binaries to be able to live on
> a file servers too, even for multiple architectures.

/usr/bin/vim is different on PPC than on i386. You cannot share /usr
(and thusly /usr/bin) between architectures. You can with /usr/share, as
it is architecture independent.

-- 
John H. Robinson, IV  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http  
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, sbih.org ( )(:[
as apparently my cats have learned how to type.  spiders.html  


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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[Olaf van der Spek]

On 6/27/05, John H. Robinson, IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I understand that part, but I'd expect binaries to be able to live on
> > a file servers too, even for multiple architectures.
> 
> /usr/bin/vim is different on PPC than on i386. You cannot share /usr

Sure. 

> (and thusly /usr/bin) between architectures. You can with /usr/share, as
> it is architecture independent.

I guess the tools aren't capable of this, but AFAIK you could just do
(manually) something like /usr/i386/bin and /usr/ppc/bin

And then the client could map /usr/bin to either depending on it's architecture.

Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[Roger Leigh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Olaf van der Spek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 6/27/05, John H. Robinson, IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> (and thusly /usr/bin) between architectures. You can with /usr/share, as
>> it is architecture independent.
>
> I guess the tools aren't capable of this, but AFAIK you could just do
> (manually) something like /usr/i386/bin and /usr/ppc/bin

The whole cpu-manfr-opsys triplet would be better.


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Re: mass bug filing for libjack dependant packages

[Adeodato Simó]

* Robert Jordens [Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:10:42 +0200]:

  Hi Robert, there a few things I'd like to comment about the handling
  of this transition. It is my intention to be constructive.

> The following source packages have been built against libjack0.80.0-dev

  At the end of this mail there is the same list processed with Lars
  Wirzenius' dd-list script [1] (which we will hopefully see some day
  integrated into devscripts). I think it's good to provide lists of
  packages in this format, since it's much more suitable for human
  consumption and people can easily find their packages; looking at the
  mail you sent to @packages.debian.org addresses [2], it's really
  difficult to find one's own packages...

[1] http://liw.iki.fi/liw/download/dd-list
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-qt-kde/2005/06/msg00297.html

  In this list, there are two separate sets of packages: those
  build-depending on libjack0.80.0-dev or libjack-dev (e.g., arts and
  ams, respectively), and those who get an indirect binary dependency on
  libjack0.80.0-0 via some other package (e.g., xmms-jackasyn via
  libjackasyn-dev). It is normally a good idea to file these bugs / send
  these mails in two stages, in order to have all the build-dependencies
  fixed first, and then go for the binary dependencies.

  About the list itself, gst-plugins is no longer in the archive, and my
  apt sources know nothing about bio2jack. But there are some missing
  packages as well: wine (build-depends on libjack0.80.0-dev,
  libwine-jack depends on libjack0.80.0-0), soundtracker, and swami.
  These two build-depend on libjack0.80.0-dev but their binary packages
  don't depend on libjack0.80.0-0 -- there may be a bug there, or the
  build-dependency is obsolete. In either case, they should be notified,
  since they'll FTBFS automatically when libjack0.80.0-dev gets removed
  from the archive.

  Also, and though we maintainers are supposed to do the right thing,
  experience shows this is not always the case, so it's really best to
  have library maintainers provide detailed explanations as of how to
  proceed. From your mail [2], maintainers build-depending on
  libjack0.80.0-0 will know that they have to change such B-D to
  libjack0.100.0-dev, but there are not crystal clear instructions for
  those build-depending on libjack-dev (honest!): though anybody reading
  the mail would say, "s/libjack-dev/libjack0.100.0-dev/ in
  debian/control", I'd bet money that some maintainer will upload with
  debian/control unchanged "because libjack-dev is now provided by
  libjack0.100.0-dev and buildds will install it". And then get the
  package compiled against different -dev packages depending on the
  architecture (more on architectures later). And as per the two stages
  mentioned above, packages not directly build-depending on libjack*-dev
  should get special handling as well, such as asking for rebuilds only
  when build-depencencies are fixed in _all_ architectures, or providing
  info about what versioned build-dependencies to use.

  Ah, architectures... I think it's been a really bad idea to start this
  transition without waiting for the package to have built successfully
  in all our arches. At the time being, ia64 and s390 have already
  failed to build jack-audio-connection-kit 0.100.0-2 (not the fault of
  your package, though), which means that each upload of depending
  packages will fail on those arches and buildd admins have to requeue
  by hand.

  And finally, this is IMHO a sufficiently big transition that
  debian-release should have been contacted in advance, for guidance and
  advice too. Perhaps the answer would have been "Sure, go ahead right
  now", but it could also have been "We're sorting out the bits for the
  C++ transition, let's hold this a few weeks, ok? Sorry for the
  inconvenience." Or even (this is not your case, and I'm only
  mentioning as a worst-case scenario): "Dude, you just f*cked up our
  timeline for the C++ transition".

 * * *

LIST OF PACKAGES

Guenter Geiger (Debian/GNU) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
hydrogen
jack-rack
ladcca
libjackasyn
meterbridge
puredata
qjackctl
rezound
seq24
snd
sooperlooper
stk
swami

Enrique Robledo Arnuncio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
freqtweak
rosegarden4
tapiir

Paul Brossier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
supercollider
xmms-jackasyn

Eric Van Buggenhaut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
fluidsynth

Ben Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
kdeaddons
koffice

Chris Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
spiralsynthmodular

Hubert Chan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
alsaplayer

Debian Qt/KDE Maintainers 
arts
kdeartwork
kdebase
kdelibs
kdemultimedia
kdenetwork

Free Ekanayaka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ams
brutefir
creox
horgand
jackeq

Free Ekanayaka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
amsynth

Mike Furr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
terminatorx
xmms-jack

Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <[EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: dummy packages and "Replaces:" field

[Kevin Mark]

On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 10:08:56PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Margarita Manterola ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050623 16:45]:
> > On 6/23/05, Steve Greenland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Is there a better solution to this?
> > > I think that there have been proposals for a new header that
> > > accomplishes what you want, 
> 
> > Well, a new header would be nice, of course.  But it would mean a
> > change in policy, that's why I was thinking of using the existing
> > ones.
> 
> Frankly speaking, I prefer a new header better than overloading the
> semantic of the existing headers.
Hi Andi,
if the old headers have more than one use case, would it be good to
state what they DO mean and DO NOT mean so that if and when a new
headers is added, it will be clear why you would want to use the new one
and why you SHOULD not use the old one.
Cheers,
Kev
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Re: problem with unstable -> testing package migration?

[sean finney]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 04:44:40PM +0200, Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote:
> Indeed, on next mirror pulse, cacti will be in testing. I didn't really
> look into this, but I assume the delay is related to the announced[1]
> ftp-master outage. Several services and scripts have been temporarily
> disabled due to this, including testing propagation.

i was figuring that it might have had something to do with the
ftp-master outage, but also remembered somebody else reporting problems
before the announcement, which it turns out ...

> The current policy version is 3.6.2, your package has 3.6.1. The notice
> is correct.

... that i read backwards (my package being 3.6.1, not 3.6.2) and i
remembered the mail on d-d where somebody had a package with standards
version 3.6.2 and the packages.qa.d.o site only knowing about 3.6.1 and
made a wrong assumption based on this.

anyway, sorry to adding to the noise on all of this...

sean

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Re: Upload new version of gaim-extendedprefs

[Steve Langasek]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 03:35:42PM +0200, Arjan Oosting wrote:
> Op ma, 27-06-2005 te 10:56 +0100, schreef Neil McGovern:
> > Hi there, you appear to be depending on build-essential without using a
> > versioned depends.

> > In general a package should not depend on build essential packages but
> > if it must do so, the depends should have a version string.

> I agree it isn't necessary, which is stated in policy section 4.2 but
> section 4  and section 7 do not contain any statement saying that every
> build dependency on build-essential should be versioned. 

4.2. Package relationships
[...]

 When specifying the set of build-time dependencies, one should list
 only those packages explicitly required by the build.  It is not
 necessary to list packages which are required merely because some
 other package in the list of build-time dependencies depends on
 them.[2]

This is a policy *should*, so violating this is an important bug.

> As it is nowhere forbidden in the policy and I use CDBS to generate
> debian/control from debian/control.in (not a build-time though) and CDBS
> adds the reference to build-essential in the Build-Depends, I am
> inclined to leave build-essential in the Build-Depends list. 

No, CDBS should not be doing this.  The one previous case I was aware of
where this happened, I was told that the package was making buggy use of
CDBS internal variables.

> If it really should not be done, maybe a check could be added to lintian
> and/or linda and CDBS and the policy should be updated.

There *is* a lintian check for this, and there is no need for policy to be
updated -- just for you to follow it.

-- 
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postmodern programmer


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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Roger Leigh wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Olaf van der Spek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On 6/27/05, John H. Robinson, IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> (and thusly /usr/bin) between architectures. You can with /usr/share, as
> >> it is architecture independent.
> >
> > I guess the tools aren't capable of this, but AFAIK you could just do
> > (manually) something like /usr/i386/bin and /usr/ppc/bin

This is a bit more complicated than a simpt dpkg -i, and far more
difficult to remove.

> The whole cpu-manfr-opsys triplet would be better.

If you wanted to go that route, and you had spare room on the filer, you
could effectively do chroots of entire systems.

/vol/redhat-advanced-server-x86
/vol/debian-sarge-i386
/vol/debian-sarge-ppc
/vol/ubuntu-hoary-ppc

Or whatever scheme you want to use.

-- 
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 http  
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, sbih.org ( )(:[
as apparently my cats have learned how to type.  spiders.html  


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Re: debian security archive/updates b0rken???

[Sebastian Ley]

Am Sonntag, 19. Juni 2005 08:45 schrieb Steve Langasek:
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 12:31:23AM -0400, sean finney wrote:
> > please excuse this blatant cross-posting, i wouldn't do it if i didn't
> > think it were critical that i do so...
> >
> > http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/log/?200506142140
> >
> > say it isn't so!
>
> It isn't so.

... one of the largest German IT News Sites today claims otherwise:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/61076

Headline translates to "Debian without security updates for several weeks 
now". I did not follow up on the current status of stable security, but in 
any case we should send them a response. I volunteer to translate an answer 
from English to German and send it to Heise.

Regards,
Sebastian

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Call for a debian maintainer to package Barcode Writer in Pure PostScript

[Terry Burton]

Hi,

Are there any Debian developers that would like to work with me to
package Barcode Writer in Pure PostScript
(http://www.terryburton.co.uk/barcodewriter) with the aim of getting
it into the stable distribution?

If you are interested then please contact me either on or off list.


Thanks,

Terry Burton
http://www.terryburton.co.uk

Re: Ongoing Firefox (and Thunderbird) Trademark problems

[Gervase Markham]

Simon Huggins wrote:

That's unfair.  I would have summarised more as "there's no problem
doing so as long as Mozilla are reasonable in Debian's eyes".  I don't
want Eric to accept the agreement if for every change of code he has to
run to Gervase and ask nicely. (note that's not quite what's happening
here, rather it's the other way around - the code can be changed but if
it's changed in a way that they don't like they could withdraw use of
the mark)

Mozilla however don't have any objective way of saying whether something
is or isn't good quality and appear to want to micromanage these things.


I don't think we want to micromanage - in fact, as your previous 
paragraph states, what we suggested was pretty hands-off.



Gervase, perhaps you could come up with a better proposal that was
objective and could be applied to all parties whilst not being overly
onerous so that people meeting some specific guidelines for quality
could use the trademarked name (oh and solve world peace, hunger and
poverty at the same time, ta ;)).  I believe Eric's asked for this in
the past in this thread.  Is it really such an impossible goal? 


I really think it is - at least, to the level that I think would be 
required. Could you define such a set of guidelines for Debian itself, 
to allow people to use the official Debian logos on modified versions of 
Debian?


I've said in the past that I'd be happy to draw up a non-binding 
checklist of hot-buttons and so on, if that would help - to be worked 
out between the MoFo and Debian. That offer stands.


Quality is not a checkbox matter. The control that trademark law 
requires we exercise over trademark usage (which is reduced to an 
absolute minimum in the suggested agreement) means we have to maintain 
quality, not maintain "does X, Y and Z but not Q".


We say Debian has a reputation for shipping quality software, and we 
want them to use the trademark. I would hope you guys also want to use 
it, as a well-known free software brand. Why is our recognition of 
Debian's quality used as a negative against that happening? Anyone with 
a similar reputation (e.g. Ubuntu) can get a similar agreement.



I think
it's the uncertainty that scares people here - the fact that if we don't
meet some target we can't see or argue against we might have the license
to use the trademark removed suddenly.


My proposal covered that concern - the Foundation would not have the 
power to withdraw the trademark from use in a frozen or shipping version 
of Debian.



I imagine that the packages will be renamed iceweasel or whatever as
soon as Mozilla make some unpopular decision but I don't see how that
serves Debian or Mozilla particularly.  Sadly the way this thread is
going I can all too clearly see Mozilla making some silly ruling in the
future which doesn't sit well with Debian :(


What from this thread makes you think that the silliness will be on our 
side?


I'm still under the impression, waiting to be corrected, that Debian's 
policy for including new root certs is "we include the root cert of 
anyone who asks"... If we say that it's not acceptable for such a store 
to be used as the basis of Firefox's SSL, is that silly?


Gerv


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Re: Ongoing Firefox (and Thunderbird) Trademark problems

[Gervase Markham]

Eric Dorland wrote:

* Gervase Markham ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Only because there's only one of me, and I'm too busy to deal with the 
volume! It's currently ten to midnight and I just got back from speaking 
at a conference in Wolverhampton.


The volume has been pretty light compared to most Debian flamewars. 


I apologise for not being used to Debian flamewars. ;-)


Would you adopt a similar attitude to copyright infringement?


No, but as many have pointed out, they're not the same thing. If they
were, clearly your agreement would be non-free. 


What I mean is, would you ever say about a copyright: "I'll ignore this 
copyright until the copyright owner complains about it"? If not, why do 
you do it for a trademark? That would make your respect for the law 
somewhat selective.


Gerv


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Re: Ongoing Firefox (and Thunderbird) Trademark problems

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 02:34:00AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote:
> "Presumably" isn't good enough IMHO. If they cared about fairness they
> would develop a trademark policy that could be applied to everyone,
> based on the "quality" criteria that is right now only known to the
> MoFo.

How do you judge quality? Do you apply some basic filter, read a metric,
and say "this program scores 83% on the scale of good code"?

Or do you have a look at how people write their code, what the result
is, and whether you think that result is a good thing? In other words,
do you make a judgement call?

I think it's the last one; and I think it's going to be pretty damn
impossible to make even one "objective" criterium -- not to mention any
plural form. Any judgement of quality involves some subjective judgement
call somewhere. Not only because it's impossible to think of all the
tricks someone could come up with to sidestep the set of rules you come
up with, while still doing stuff you don't want people to associate with
your name; also because quality /is/ a very subjective subject matter,
after all.

> Debian shouldn't be encouraging the use of trademarks that are not
> equally accessible to all. 

True. But what makes you say they're not equally accessible? Do you have
proof that the Mozilla Foundation is indeed not interested in treating
everyone by the same set of rules, and is treating us other than it is
(or will be) treating any of our derivatives?

If not, I don't see what the problem is. Cabal fears perhaps? Well,
then maybe you could suggest that they publically state something like
"We decide on a case-by-case basis whether we think some distributor is
holding up to our standards; but if we feel they are not, we will always
fully motivate our decision", or "We decide on a case-by-case [...]; but
the process is open on $mailinglist for everyone to follow", or
something similar to that. Would that satisfy your fears?

> And we are definitely getting special treatment already from the MoFo:
> would they really even be entertaining this discussion if we were not
> such a large distribution?

Well, I don't know. If I knew my name was being dragged through the mud,
I'd react too. Being called names such as "MoFo"[1], or being accused of
not treating everyone the same way without evidence to support that
action would trigger some nasty response from my end, for sure. And if
that takes a lng "discussion", so be it.

[1] "Motherer". Yeah, yeah, I know. Bad pun.

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Re: Getting rid of circular dependencies

[Kevin Mark]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 02:28:30PM -0300, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:
> Em Sex, 2005-06-24 às 23:57 +0200, Ondrej Sury escreveu:
> > One thing is very clear:
> > 
> > 1. this is (a sort of) abuse of Depends field
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > 2. we need reverse Suggest/Recommends field, ie. something like
> > Recommends-Uninstall: foo-data
> 
> No, all we need is a better handling of what we have today in our
> package managers (read APT frontends). 
Hi Gustavo,
I think that makes sense. apt frontends should have a 'user' setting
that only shows apps and an 'expert' setting that shows libs,
-common,-data. I will check the bugs.d.o and see if anyone has files a
wishlist bug.
Cheers,
Kev
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Re: Call for a debian maintainer to package Barcode Writer in Pure PostScript

[Jeremie Koenig]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 11:55:32PM +0100, Terry Burton wrote:
> Are there any Debian developers that would like to work with me to
> package Barcode Writer in Pure PostScript
> (http://www.terryburton.co.uk/barcodewriter) with the aim of getting
> it into the stable distribution?

Hello,

Debian keeps track of requests for packages in its bug tracking system.
If noone answers your query right now, you may want to file an RFP bug
against wnpp (Work Needing and Prospective Packages). See
http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp for instructions.

Please also note that there's no need to be an official Debian Developer
to maintain packages in Debian: you could package the software yourself
and ask a DD to upload it to Debian for you. After maintaining your
package for some time, you may become a DD yourself (so you can upload
it yourself) if you feel like it. See http://www.debian.org/devel/join
to learn about Debian packaging and becoming a Debian Developer.

-- 
Jeremie Koenig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Ongoing Firefox (and Thunderbird) Trademark problems

[Michael K. Edwards]

On 6/27/05, Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 02:34:00AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote:
> > "Presumably" isn't good enough IMHO. If they cared about fairness they
> > would develop a trademark policy that could be applied to everyone,
> > based on the "quality" criteria that is right now only known to the
> > MoFo.
> 
> How do you judge quality? Do you apply some basic filter, read a metric,
> and say "this program scores 83% on the scale of good code"?
> 
> Or do you have a look at how people write their code, what the result
> is, and whether you think that result is a good thing? In other words,
> do you make a judgement call?

As a general rule, the trademark holder is obliged to retain the
authority to judge whether or not others are maintaining adequate
quality controls.  This authority is not without bounds (see
Prestonettes v. Coty and other precedents I have cited), but
delegating too many subjective judgment calls to the trademark user
(whether or not he/she is a "licensee") risks loss of the trademark.

It is apparently possible for a trademark holder to accept contractual
limits on his/her/its authority to issue a product a failing grade;
see the Sun v. Microsoft saga and the extent to which Sun may be
obliged to pass a Java implementation that passes their Test
Compatibility Kit.  But a browser is not a JVM, and I don't think it's
reasonable to ask the Mozilla folks to reduce their QA role to
objective validation with a currently non-existent TCK.

I hope that Eric or the DPL will decide to formally "acknowledge" the
safety zone offered to Debian by the Mozilla Foundation rather than
profess to "ignore" the trademark policy.  A policy that one is
"ignoring" can't be held up to other trademark holders as a modus
vivendi; and in any case I think the Foundation deserves better from
Debian than that.  I do find it encouraging that Eric has invited the
DPL to weigh in.  I hope that Branden finds the time to consult with
competent counsel (which I am not) and to propose a solution that
garners enough developer support to be a model for our relationship
with other trademark holders.

Cheers,
- Michael
(IANADD, IANAL, TINLA)

P. S.  The Mozilla Foundation doesn't seem to object to "MoFo", and
may even have originated the term.  But I can certainly see how it
could lead to misunderstandings.  :)

Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[Miles Bader]

David Pashley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Do we really need this in the archive? Can we not add this to another
> package under games?

Er, why?  This sounds like a great utility, it seems silly and
artificial to force it to be merged unless there's already a very
similar package to which it would be a natural addition.

Of course you could _start_ a "numerology games" package so things are
ready for other such utilities.

> doesn't serve a significant amount of functionality.

Speak for yourself...

-miles
-- 
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Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[Glenn Maynard]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 10:39:53AM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> David Pashley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Do we really need this in the archive? Can we not add this to another
> > package under games?
> 
> Er, why?  This sounds like a great utility

It's a novelty joke program.  If that's a "great utility" in your view,
then I find your opinion hard to take seriously ...

-- 
Glenn Maynard


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Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[Miles Bader]

Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> It's a novelty joke program.  If that's a "great utility" in your view,
> then I find your opinion hard to take seriously ...

So is debian "business apps only" now?

-Miles
-- 
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Re: Announcing a new book: The Debian System -- Concepts and Techniques

[Stephen Birch]

Looks good!!!

I went to amazon.co.uk to order a copy, but it isn't listed yet :-(

They often list books *before* they become available so you may want
to contact them and provide details.

Steve


martin f krafft([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2005-06-27 03:05:
> Dear all,
> 
> I am pleased to announce the availability of my new (English) book
> "The Debian System", which Open Source Press[0] introduced at the
> Linuxtag 2005. I would like to thank all who have followed its
> development over the last year, and apologise for the delay and the
> long wait you have endured. As opposed to the initially planned 350
> pages, I am proud to offer a total of 608 now, so the wait wasn't
> for nothing. You can find more information about the book on its web
> site[1].
> 
>   0. http://www.opensourcepress.de [German only -- for now]
>   1. http://debianbook.info
> 
> The book is not a regular user's handbook, but rather a book for
> people who want to understand and make more out of their Debian
> installation(s). It explains the systems's (and project's) concepts
> and analyses the techniques that make up the Debian Way of system
> administration -- you will not find any discussion of Linux tools or
> concepts, graphical desktop environments, server software, or user
> programmes in here! Just 608 pages of pure Debian, written for the
> Linux/Unix administrators switching to Debian and existing Debian
> users alike.
> 
> In addition to examples and common pitfalls, the book explains just
> why the Debian developers chose certain approaches over others. As
> it explores the motivations behind the Debian solutions, the reader
> is given a peek at the level of experience and sophistication that
> has flowed into the various system components, and s/he learns to
> embrace their elegance. This book aims to be the resource on Debian
> GNU/Linux as well as an enticing companion on one's path towards
> advanced Debian administration.
> 
> The hardcover edition will be available in stores in the beginning
> of July. A list of online shops stocking it is kept up to date on
> the web site[2] (please let me know which ones I'm missing).
> 
>   2. http://debiansystem.info/order
> 
> An announcement mailing list[3] exists, as well as an RSS feed[4] of
> updates (errata & changes), news and events related to the book, and
> quotes about it. There is even a forum[5] (currently based on
> experimental software though).
> 
>   3. http://lists.madduck.net/mailman/listinfo/debianbook-announce
>   4. http://debiansystem.info/updates/RSS
>   5. http://debiansystem.info/readers/forum
> 
> I would herewith also like to thank all who have made this book
> possible: all contributors to the Debian project, and each one of
> the individuals who have worked on parts of the text with me to get
> it to where it is now. I am also greatly indebted to my publisher,
> Open Source Press[6], who has simply spoiled me with this first book
> of mine.
> 
>   6. http://www.opensourcepress.de [German only -- for now]
> 
> I am also greatly indebted to the Zope[7], Plone[8], and Apache[9]
> projects for the products that power the book's web site.
> 
>   7. http://www.zope.org
>   8. http://www.plone.org
>   9. http://httpd.apache.org
> 
> I appreciate if people would spread the word about this book. If you
> would be willing to link to the book's pages from your web site,
> please see [10]. Also, feel free to forward this message verbatim.
> 
>   10. http://debiansystem.info/public
> 
> Thanks for your attention.
> 



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Re: Announcing a new book: The Debian System -- Concepts and Techniques

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Martin Dickopp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005.06.27.1049 +0200]:
> I would be nice if you could include www.bookzilla.de.
> 
> Bookzilla is a cooperation between the largest German wholesale book
> dealer Libri (i.e. Bookzilla offers the complete Libri assortment) and
> two companies. They donate 5% of every sale to the FSF Europe.

Done. They'll get first place then, obviously.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer, admin, user, and author
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
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life is a game. money is how we keep score.
 -- ted turner


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Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[Kenneth Pronovici]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 11:27:21AM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > It's a novelty joke program.  If that's a "great utility" in your view,
> > then I find your opinion hard to take seriously ...
> 
> So is debian "business apps only" now?

Oh come on, of course not.  But if you can't admit that this is a
novelty application and not a utility, you're kidding yourself.

KEN

-- 
Kenneth J. Pronovici <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[Miles Bader]

Kenneth Pronovici <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Oh come on, of course not.  But if you can't admit that this is a
> novelty application and not a utility, you're kidding yourself.

For the record, I _was_ kidding in my original message -- but I do think
it looks like a fun program, and certainly stand by the rest of my
message.

-Miles
-- 
In New York, most people don't have cars, so if you want to kill a person, you
have to take the subway to their house.  And sometimes on the way, the train
is delayed and you get impatient, so you have to kill someone on the subway.
  [George Carlin]


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Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[Kenneth Pronovici]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:37:25PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> Kenneth Pronovici <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Oh come on, of course not.  But if you can't admit that this is a
> > novelty application and not a utility, you're kidding yourself.
> 
> For the record, I _was_ kidding in my original message -- but I do think
> it looks like a fun program, and certainly stand by the rest of my
> message.

Fair enough.

KEN

-- 
Kenneth J. Pronovici <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Alioth Project Approved - and now?

[Don Armstrong]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 05:43:24PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> > Does anyone still use ssh1? It seems quite common for it not to be
> > supported these days...
> 
> One machine I use fairly frequently as a terminal is a PowerMac
> running Mac OS 8, where knowledgeable people tell me no SSH2 client
> is available and so I'm stuck with SSH1.

Fortunatly, they're not very knowledgeable.

MacSSH is what you're looking for:

http://pro.wanadoo.fr/chombier/MacSSH/SSH_info.html

[However, the last time I remember checking, it does not support
scp;[1] yet, since it's GPLed, adding that support shouldn't be too
terribly difficult if someone actually wants it.]


Don Armstrong

1: This was actually the only reason I still had ssh1 support when I
had a collection of macintoshes running something besides Debian.
-- 
Debian's not really about the users or the software at all. It's a
large flame-generating engine that the cabal uses to heat their coffee
 -- Andrew Suffield (#debian-devel Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:34 -0500)

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Re: mass bug filing for libjack dependant packages

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 04:10:42PM +0200, Robert Jordens wrote:
> I uploaded a new release of jack-audio-connection-kit to unstable. The
> following source packages have been built against libjack0.80.0-dev and
> must now be rebuilt against libjack0.100.0-dev due to incompatible API
> changes. I plan to file important bugs and then upgrade them to
> something RC after a few weeks. Is that OK?

Couldn't you keep the old library in the archive for a while?
Is a mass forced upgrade necessary? Beneficial?


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Ongoing Firefox (and Thunderbird) Trademark problems

[Cameron Patrick]

Gervase Markham wrote:

> We say Debian has a reputation for shipping quality software, and we 
> want them to use the trademark. I would hope you guys also want to use 
> it, as a well-known free software brand. Why is our recognition of 
> Debian's quality used as a negative against that happening? Anyone with 
> a similar reputation (e.g. Ubuntu) can get a similar agreement.

I'm curious as to how this would apply to Debian-derived distributions
which either (a) don't change the Firefox/Thunderbird packages, or (b)
change them in some trivial way.  Would someone taking the packages
unchanged from Debian be required to either ask MoFo for a trademark
agreement or rename their Firefox?

This isn't entirely a hypothetical question - I'm involved in
producing a customised Debian distribution; we have changed the source
code to a bunch of packages (although not any Mozilla ones) and ship a
quite different default configuration for many more (including
Thunderbird and I think Firefox too), and would like to make sure
we're on the right side of Mozilla's trademark licence :-)

Cheers,

Cameron.


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Re: Bug#315903: ITP: evilfinder -- proves that any given subject is evil

[Marc Singer]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 11:42:34PM -0500, Kenneth Pronovici wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:37:25PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> > Kenneth Pronovici <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Oh come on, of course not.  But if you can't admit that this is a
> > > novelty application and not a utility, you're kidding yourself.
> > 
> > For the record, I _was_ kidding in my original message -- but I do think
> > it looks like a fun program, and certainly stand by the rest of my
> > message.
> 
> Fair enough.

Whew.  That was close.  I thought we were gonna lose evilfinder.

> 
> KEN
> 
> -- 
> Kenneth J. Pronovici <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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Re: Greylisting for @debian.org email, please

[Bob Proulx]

Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> Le Lun 27 Juin 2005 10:14, Stig Sandbeck Mathisen a écrit :
> > Since this is contrary to my experience with greylisting, I'd like to
> > hear more about your experiences with it, and why you consider
> > greylisting "really painful".
>
> I already did : for personnal use (and I use my @debian.org address for 
> some debian related personnal discussions, like discussions with an 
> uploader I sponsor or alike) I find that 30minutes delays are not 
> acceptable (and I know that greylisting last only 5 minutes, but it's a 
> fact that requeue of a mail is done 30 minutes after the first try for 
> most of the SMTP server on the planet).
>
> I don't ask a <5s delay for every mail I send/receive, but if a mail 
> takes more than 2-3 minutes to be delivered, then this is useless.

I think you misunderstand.  Remember that only the first exchange with
a new address is delayed.  After the initial exchange there is no more
delay.  Your continuing conversations will not have a delay.

> > I'm also interested in hearing about the size of the mail platforms
> > you've used it on, and wether the mail platforms are list-heavy or
> > user-heavy, and mostly incoming or outgoing traffic.
> 
> On a mail platform where you use greylisting, you generally have a boost 
> in performances. *BUT* you punish all the MX that deliver mail to you. 
> greylisting put the charge on the SMTP server before you, and those MX 
> will deliver mails slower to you.

There is no valid reason for an MX exchanger as a backup mail relay on
the internet today.  These days MX records are only useful for routing
to private subnets.  Greylisting in the presense of MX backup relays
means that all must have the same rules.  Because otherwise there
would be no delay as mail was delivered to the MX backup and then
proceeded immediately to the primary.  Attempting to deliver mail to
the MX secondaries hoping they will have lesser restrictions is a
common spammer technique.

> like I said many times in that thread, greylist is a good solution to 
> filter spam with quite no false positive, that's true. *BUT* it's a bad 
> idea to use it for *every* mail. A mail that (e.g.) :
>  - is SPF-clean
>  - comes from hotst that are RBL-clean
>  - 
> should not suffer from greylisting.

Remember that all subsequent messages after the first one are not in
any way delayed.  The effect there is the same as not having
greylisting.

Bob


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Re: Compiling and using glibc-2.2 under Debian Sarge

[Bob Proulx]

Magik wrote:
> > I think the typical answer will be to compile in a woody chroot.
> > There are several different packages to help such as pbuilder and
> > dchroot.  This works quite well for C programs because gcc is very
> > mature and the woody default gcc compiler is sufficient for most
> > tasks.  But if you have a C++ program then you are stuck using the
> > woody g++ and that is not sufficient for many modern C++ programs.
> 
> Unfortunately, in our main lib we use C++ and not just plain C. That's why I
> think the Woody compiler might be somewhat outdated for our purpose. Maybe I
> can find a backport or something, tho.
> Think I'll try that.

Be sure to look into Adrian Bunk's woody backports of gcc-3.3.  They
were very useful to me.

  deb http://www.fs.tum.de/~bunk/debian woody/bunk-1 main contrib non-free

Bob


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Re: Greylisting for @debian.org email, please

[Pierre Habouzit]

Le Mar 28 Juin 2005 08:36, Bob Proulx a écrit :
> Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > Le Lun 27 Juin 2005 10:14, Stig Sandbeck Mathisen a écrit :
> > > Since this is contrary to my experience with greylisting, I'd
> > > like to hear more about your experiences with it, and why you
> > > consider greylisting "really painful".
> >
> > I already did : for personnal use (and I use my @debian.org address
> > for some debian related personnal discussions, like discussions
> > with an uploader I sponsor or alike) I find that 30minutes delays
> > are not acceptable (and I know that greylisting last only 5
> > minutes, but it's a fact that requeue of a mail is done 30 minutes
> > after the first try for most of the SMTP server on the planet).
> >
> > I don't ask a <5s delay for every mail I send/receive, but if a
> > mail takes more than 2-3 minutes to be delivered, then this is
> > useless.
>
> I think you misunderstand.  Remember that only the first exchange
> with a new address is delayed.  After the initial exchange there is
> no more delay.  Your continuing conversations will not have a delay.

and yet please rememeber one of my previous mails : some of my regular 
corespondant have mails that use SRS and that will also have a MAIL 
FROM that changes every 3/4 hours.


> > like I said many times in that thread, greylist is a good solution
> > to filter spam with quite no false positive, that's true. *BUT*
> > it's a bad idea to use it for *every* mail. A mail that (e.g.) :
> >  - is SPF-clean
> >  - comes from hotst that are RBL-clean
> >  - 
> > should not suffer from greylisting.
>
> Remember that all subsequent messages after the first one are not in
> any way delayed.  The effect there is the same as not having
> greylisting.

even if that was true, I don't see why the first mail should be delayed 
when it's obviously a legitimate mail. and now think at the thing I 
just said.
-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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