Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Frank Küster]

Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> then a week later
> publically insults/taunts a developer (one of the Release Managers,
> even), 

Oh, how impertinent.  He dared to insult an official Debian God!

Aghast, Frank
-- 
Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX)

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Frank Küster]

Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 2) Yes, I have tried talking to him.  After a number of blowups on the
> debian-kernel list, myself and a number of kernel team members have
> talked to him to calm him down (and in some cases getting him to
> apologize).  The behavior he displays happens repeatedly, despite
> warnings and requests that he behave himself.  The rest of the IRC log
> from when he threatened Jonas is basically me attempting to show Sven
> how destructive his behavior is.  The fact that, a week later, he
> continues w/ this behavior (after years of doing the same thing) is why
> you're seeing this request.

Have you considered banning him from the lists/channel?

Regards, Frank
-- 
Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX)

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Daniel Stone]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 09:48:11AM +0100, Frank Küster wrote:
> Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 2) Yes, I have tried talking to him.  After a number of blowups on the
> > debian-kernel list, myself and a number of kernel team members have
> > talked to him to calm him down (and in some cases getting him to
> > apologize).  The behavior he displays happens repeatedly, despite
> > warnings and requests that he behave himself.  The rest of the IRC log
> > from when he threatened Jonas is basically me attempting to show Sven
> > how destructive his behavior is.  The fact that, a week later, he
> > continues w/ this behavior (after years of doing the same thing) is why
> > you're seeing this request.
> 
> Have you considered banning him from the lists/channel?

Right there, in the original mail ...

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> Sven's behavior has always been combative (and some might argue
> hostile), but this is beyond what is acceptable.  He threatens bodily
> harm upon another developer in a public forum, and then a week later
> publically insults/taunts a developer (one of the Release Managers,
> even), behind his back.  This is incredibly childish, aggressive
> behavior, and should not be tolerated within the project (IMO).

Cheers,
Daniel


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Re: Maintainer for fftw 2.1.3 requested

[Francesco P. Lovergine]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 11:30:44PM -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:
> I am surprised, as fftw is an excellent fft package and is still used
> by the following (they really should be updated to use fftw version
> 3 though). I would expect the maintainer of one of these to take an
> interest in this matter.
> 

I would doubt change fftw2 -> fftw3 in support would appear anytime soon 
for many packages. They are at least not compatible at API level, and in
scientific area people do not change things without a very
good reason to do that. Both releases are maintained by upstream AFAIK.

Maybe the fftw3 maintainer could be interested in maintainace of fftw2 too...

-- 
Francesco P. Lovergine


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Re: Maintainer for fftw 2.1.3 requested

[Francesco P. Lovergine]

> 
> Maybe the fftw3 maintainer could be interested in maintainace of fftw2 too...

Oh well he, filled the ITA about that on December...

-- 
Francesco P. Lovergine


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Pierre Habouzit]

Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> 
>, and I have already completed step 1.

I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.

what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ?

I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also 
may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to 
correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he 
did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me…).

If you want to expulse any DD that taunts a release manager, a 
ftp-master or a debian sys-admin, hey, please begin with the recent 
thread about the NEW queue beeing stuck again. There is a lot of DDs 
that need you to rule about them.


The project is really going insane.
-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: GFDL question

[Jacobo Tarrio]

El miércoles, 15 de marzo de 2006 a las 00:14:07 +0100, Henning Makholm 
escribía:

> The above sentence from Jacobo Tarrio seems to use "not distributable"
> in sense (b). Since this is not in fact -legal, I assume that we all
> actually agree and that JT is simply unfamiliar with the relevant
> jargon.

 Yes, it was sense (b), but it was not unfamiliarity; it was just
old-fashioned slopiness.

-- 
   Jacobo Tarrío | http://jacobo.tarrio.org/


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Olaf van der Spek]

On 3/15/06, Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> > from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> > 
> >, and I have already completed step 1.
>
> I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.
>
> what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ?
>
> I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also
> may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to
> correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he
> did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me…).

Is an apology a complete undo?

> If you want to expulse any DD that taunts a release manager, a

Where did he say he wanted to do that?

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Josselin Mouette]

Le mardi 14 mars 2006 à 21:01 -0500, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.

If this is a joke, it's not funny. I happen to prefer Andrew Suffield's
humour.
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom

Request of expulsion of Zeke the Cat from the Debian Project

[Wouter Verhelst]

This is an official request to throw Zeke the Cat out of the Debian
Project. I do *not* want a cat as my DPL, therefore, I'm requesting that
she be removed from the project.

Besides, I don't like cats anyway.

... then again, maybe this isn't.

Please, people, the mere fact that we have an expulsion procedure should
*not* mean that we have to invoke it twice in a few weeks. All this
sounds more like a "my way or the highway" to me. I find the current
state of affairs to be highly disturbing. If people can't lose steam on
IRC anymore, then where can they?

Get over yourself. Please.

-- 
Fun will now commence
  -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Matthew Garrett]

Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20
> may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20
> correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20
> did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me).

Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against
him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more 
than one occasion without any hint of an apology.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Mike Bird]

On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 05:00, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20
> > may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20
> > correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20
> > did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me).
> 
> Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against
> him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more 
> than one occasion without any hint of an apology.

Matthew,

Your accusation fails to allege sufficient facts to constitute
an allegation of defamation.

Rather than wasting list bandwidth, please consult a solicitor.

--Mike Bird


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sam Hocevar]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006, Andres Salomon wrote:
> Hi,

   Hi!

> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.

   Hahaha oh wow. You got it the wrong way, you should only do that
_after_ someone posts http://zoy.org/~sam/ftwcal.jpeg to d-d-a. Now I
have no other choice but to report you to the mailing-list behavioural
police. Sorry.

Sam.
-- 
 DUMBLEDORE DIES IN THE NEW HARRY POTTER BOOK
SEVERUS SNAPE IS THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE
  BILL WEASLEY MARRIES FLEUR DELACOUR AND HIS FACE IS MUTILATED
  (attention : spoilers)


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Ralf Treinen]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:

> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> ,
> and I have already completed step 1.

This is ridiculous. It seems to become a favourite pasttime in debian
to ask for exclusion of people with whom someone has a personal quarrel.

> So, if you are interested in seconding the expulsion request, please let
> me know.  Please do not turn this into a flamewar; I don't care about
> your reasons why people should not be forcefully removed from the
> project.  Those who feel this way probably have not had to work w/ Sven
> on a team for the past 2 years.

I have been working with Sven on the debian ocaml team for six years.
He was the founder of that team, and for a long time among the most
active and productive members. Every time I had the occassion to
collaborate with him discussions were constructive and fruitful.

-Ralf.
-- 
Ralf Treinen
Laboratoire Spécification et Vérification
CNRS, École Normale Supérieure de Cachan, INRIA Futurs
http://www.lsv.ens-cachan.fr/~treinen


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Matthew Garrett]

Mike Bird <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Your accusation fails to allege sufficient facts to constitute
> an allegation of defamation.

The facts have previously been discussed elsewhere. I replied merely to 
point out that Sven does not always apologise for his behaviour.

> Rather than wasting list bandwidth, please consult a solicitor.

I have absolutely no interest in starting legal action against Sven. 

And rather than wasting /my/ bandwidth, would you please not Cc me on 
replies?
-- 
Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 11:25 +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> > from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> > 
> >, and I have already completed step 1.
> 
> I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.

It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to
allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the
project.  Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not
the other?


> 
> what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ?

I'm tired of discussions immediately degrading into personal insults.  

> 
> I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also 
> may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to 
> correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he 
> did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me…).
> 

That is not the case.  Furthermore, apologizing repeatedly does not make
his behavior right.


> If you want to expulse any DD that taunts a release manager, a 
> ftp-master or a debian sys-admin, hey, please begin with the recent 
> thread about the NEW queue beeing stuck again. There is a lot of DDs 
> that need you to rule about them.


This is not about taunting a release manager, an ftp master, or a DAM.
This is about repeated aggressive, childish behavior, against a number
of people.  Sven seems to anger almost everyone he works closely with.
The examples I provided are just the tip of the iceberg.  I thought I
explained this in my followup email[0].

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/03/msg00621.html


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Gustavo Franco]

On 3/14/06, Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> ,
> and I have already completed step 1.
>

[ Andres, don't get me wrong but in the next time you start a thread
like this one doing
cross-posting, can you set the reply-to for -devel, for example ? ]

Please Andres, the expulsion process is the last mile. Are we there yet ?

It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically: The
people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the people
that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The minute after
the release team announces that we're going to delay our next release,
we will stop with these weird threads and keep arguing that we're all
volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the humanity!

I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some time
considering not my words, but just Etch.

Thanks in advance,
-- stratus

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Andres Salomon [Tue, Mar 14 2006, 09:01:09PM]:

> harm upon another developer in a public forum, and then a week later
> publically insults/taunts a developer (one of the Release Managers,
> even), behind his back.  This is incredibly childish, aggressive
> behavior, and should not be tolerated within the project (IMO).

He were slandering somebody and others were listening/reading without
telling him that the behaviour is impolite? Well, then maybe it shows us
all (or at least the readers) in a bad light.

Even then, you have to deal with such offence in a more contructive way,
definitely not by stupid expulsion process. Heck, even our current DPL
may not be there if I would have acted like you few years ago (I did
not forget comments like "Ah, Eduard Bloch joined the club of
debian-legal experts, hahaha" and similar stupid rants found in IRC logs
but, hey, people can change, and people can learn, and kicking someone
out without giving at least one second chance is equally childish). And
if I would have acted like a hot potato, I would have gone the path of
Adrian Bunk at the time.

Eduard.

-- 
Auf ähnlichem Niveau bewegen sich die Gehältern von Webdesignern, die
ebenfalls zu den Verlierern unter den *Informatikern* zählen.
  -- Unispiegel


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Re: Delayed ldconfig execution in postinst step

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Eduard Bloch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> #include 
> * Goswin von Brederlow [Tue, Mar 14 2006, 10:11:43PM]:
>
>> >> What is a depends? Do you mean dependency or dependents?
>> >
>> > I think he means dependents:  If package foo depends on library foobar,
>> > dpkg/apt can unpack and configure-without-ldconfig all packages that
>> > don't depend on foobar, but it must run ldconfig before any package that
>> > declares: "Depends: foobar" is configured.
>> 
>> Exactly that sort of thing.
>
> That would require deep integration into dpkg and is hard to track
> (reliably) because package may deliberately have a chain of dependencies
> that lead to the original thing that they need, IMO. Any other opinion
> on that? I would prefer packages requesting a certain "configuration
> state" explicitely if they need it.

Packages already request a certain configuration state by specifying
Depends and such. I see little point in duplicating this information.

>> >> Further, I would not depend on package installation operations but
>> >> instead invent something like "dpkg-hook --execute ldconfig" to run
>> >> outstanding tasks noted under the name "ldconfig".
>> >
>> > This I don't understand...
>> 
>> dpkg would do this automaticaly because the package would have a
>> depends on the package scheduling the job with "--on-depends".
>
> Again, what is "have a depends"? Watch the dependencies of other
> packages and run the task before configuring them? What if the dependent
> package is installed later, in another dpkg invocation (by apt)?

Package foobar has "Depends: libfoo". There can only be three cases:

1) dpkg -i libfoo; dpkg -i foobar
   The ldconfig hook of libfoo is run at the end of dpkg.

2) dpkg -i libfoo foobar
   The ldconfig hook is run before configuring foobar. Why? Because
   libfoo registers the hook as being run before anything that depends
   on libfoo and foobar does depend.

3) apt calls dpkg --delay-hooks -i libfoo; dpkg -i foobar
   The ldconfig hook gets registered in the first dpkg run and
   executed in the second before foobar. The second dpkg run has to
   parse in all pending hooks and handle them as if they had just been
   set.

>> 2) dpkg can keep track of all packages that registered a hook. On
>> failure those packages could be deconfigure or in the case of multiple
>> packages adding elements to a job (e.g. different font paths) they
>> could be run disjunct to narrow down the failure.
>
> Where is the point? That would be only useful if packages specify a
> certain option for the command, and then rerun each command
> individually. Otherwise, if the error condition is triggered by a file
> state combination, you cannot just go back and execute something
> step-by-step because _all_ package contents are already installed.

There are two cases:

1) dpkg-hook update-bla
   All packages use the same simple command to update something. On
   failure all packages with this hook should be marked as failed. The
   user can then try to configure them one by one but there should be
   little point in that. The bug has to be fixed to continue.

2) Each package appends an option
   The per package options are e.g. directories to be added to the
   font index. On failure dpkg can split all those hook calls up to
   see what package caused the failure to occur. The hook scripts have
   to be written in a way that they can be rerun selectively after a
   failure but that shouldn't be too hard. Optimaly this would pin
   point the exact package that causes the failure and properly
   configure the rest.

>> I also don't think it is too uncommon for a broken package pulling
>> down all others with the same "hook". If one package messes up its
>> menu entry the menu system will break. Or a broken font dir can
>> disrupt X. We already have lots of possibilities for a failure in one
>> package to influence others. Those cases where a hook would be usefull
>> already create hard to track interdependencies between packages.
>
> As Frank said, there are cases where you can merge the command execution
> without worrying much about success or failure, and other cases where
> you need to be able to assign the blame.

One could have an option --ignore-error for cases where the result is
truely irelevant. E.g. when it updates some cache just to speed up
operations but also works without.

MfG
Goswin


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Julien BLACHE]

Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,

> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.

I want to see you leave the Project if this expulsion process fails.

JB.

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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Adeodato Simó]

* Andres Salomon [Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:01:09 -0500]:

> Hi,

  Hi. FWIW:

> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.

  I've never worked closely with Sven Luther, but I've lurked in some
  teams he's member of, so if my capability as an observer is worth
  something to you, you may be interested in this if you're unfamiliar
  with Svenl. Over the time,

- I've seem him repeteadly exhaust people's patience, both over
  important discussion, and over trivialities; which is, ok,
  something not so uncommon in this project, albeit undesirable.

- I've seen him hijack technical discussions, making the possibility
  of a conclusion impossible due to him going over and over the same
  points in an unproductive fashion; which is, ook, something not
  so uncommon in this project, albeit very undesirable.

- I've seen him several times reject good or even optimum solutions
  to problems, upon which a fair number of other people agreed, just
  for them going against his own personal agenda; which is, oook,
  something not so uncommon in this project, albeit very very
  undesirable.

- BUT, I've also seen him, in uncountable occasions, steal the joy
  of hacking on Debian from many valuable developers of the project,
  make them frustrated and unhappy by continuously ignoring their
  request to be left alone, and make them less than willing to spend
  their time improving the technical quality of subsystems where
  Svenl was also involved. And this is something that, fortunately,
  one does not get to see everyday in the project, and something
  that has made me terribly sad whenever I've had to watch it.

  I haven't decided myself whether I think this procedure is too much
  for this particular case or not, and I'm aware that Svenl is not
  regarded as so nocive by many people who just see his good technical
  work and not him interact with others. But, if you want to listen, I
  do think Svenl has done much harm, if not to the project, to the
  _PEOPLE_ involved in some parts of the project, which is something
  that needs a solution. It's bad if your actions jeopardize a project's
  good name, or decrement its overall quality, but it's not bad but
  terrible when they go directly to contributors' feelings and amount of
  motivaion. Again, not sure still the proposed solution is the best.

  Also, just as a small anecdote: during the huge Vancouver thread, I
  mentally marked two people as having had a terribe and inexcusable
  behavior, and Svenl was one of them. While several people expressed
  their unhappiness or frustration very strongly, sometimes with nasty
  accusations or even insults, my mind could, while disagreeing to it,
  explain those reactions by putting them under a "caused by unbearable
  frustration" category; Svenl's behavior, otoh, surpassed the limits of
  my mind.

  Technical problems are hard, but we love them; social problems are
  harder, and we repeteadly ignore them until they explode.

-- 
Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es
Debian Developer  adeodato at debian.org
 
If you want the holes in your knowledge showing up try teaching someone.
-- Alan Cox


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Jorgen Schaefer]

Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
>> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
>> ,
>> and I have already completed step 1.
>
> Thanks very much Andres, this is really appreciated.
>
> /me leaves in disgust.

Not being involved in the kernel team at all, I'd be rather
interested in your point of view on this - seemingly severe -
issue.

Do you think you could share it?

Greetings,
-- Jorgen

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.forcix.cx/


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well.

For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive ways
of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process:

http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt

This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened Jonas.  If
he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the past two years,
rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that must be won
at all costs, I would not be making this request.



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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Daniel Stone]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 12:29:49PM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> > from the project.
> 
> I want to see you leave the Project if this expulsion process fails.

There's a defined process to do that.  Start it, if you believe so
strongly that Andres's behaviour has been offensive to the project.


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> Some might argue that we should just kick him from the channel and
> remove his commit access to the debian-kernel project, but that does not
> solve the problem of him abusing other teams, as well as his abusive
> mailing list posts.  He also {co-,}maintains some 47 packages, which
> means users for those packages will have to deal w/ him as well.  I

I don't know if you've a clue about Sven's behaviour in teams other then
debian-kernel. I do have a clue about Sven's behaviour in the
debian-ocaml-maint team, which he founded and which I joined something
like 5 years ago. That team collaboratively maintains some 30 packages
now and Sven is still an active part of it.

He has always been a valuable contributor of the team, happy to hacking
and to discuss with other people in order to reach common goals.
Discussing with him may be sometimes difficult, that's true, but hey: if
we are supposed to be a community, we need to learn to accept each other
peculiarities! In my experience, Sven has always done more good than
harm to the debian-ocaml-maint team.

So far, I have never took the time to study the detail of the expulsion
process, so sorry if this mail is inappropriate. But be sure that I will
do everything I can as a DD to stop Sven's expulsion.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy
[EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
If there's any real truth it's that the entire multidimensional infinity
of the Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs. -!-


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[John Hasler]

Pierre Habouzit writes:
> I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.

So do I.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Pierre Habouzit]

Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 15:05, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 11:25 +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > Le Mer 15 Mars 2006 03:01, Andres Salomon a écrit :
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther
> > > removed from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> > >  > >tml> , and I have already completed step 1.
> >
> > I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.
>
> It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to
> allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the
> project.  Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not
> the other?
>
> > what is wrong with you ? are you gone completely insane or what ?
>
> I'm tired of discussions immediately degrading into personal insults.

just so that we are clear, I consider your first mail a personal insult 
already, especially given that your decision is based on irc logs.

Using the irc logs of a pissed person for the ground of an expulsion 
process is either (I'll let you choose):
 * a complete lack of dignity ;
 * the result of a fascist mind (so that I can win my Godwin point) ;
 * that you are a saint, since you feel comfortable with blaming people
   that release pressure on IRC.


oh and btw, as you noted it, I attacked you personnaly, maybe you should 
begin a procedure to expulse me.


-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 01:00:19PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I know Sven may sometimes be a bit overpresent in some trolls, he also=20
> > may answer too quick, without having read the mail he answers to=20
> > correctly enough. But AFAICT, I've always seen him apologies when he=20
> > did so (I can provide links if you can't believe me).
> 
> Sven has insulted me and accused me of engaging in a conspiracy against
> him and his employers in order to cover up my own incompetence on more 
> than one occasion without any hint of an apology.

Well, this was on the ubuntu irc channel, when you where all presenting
excuses for not having applied the patch that allowed the pegasos to be fully
supported on ubuntu, even though i did so one month before the release, and
nobody commented on that bug.

I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason
for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a
printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you or
the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the
bug report.

Then you can add the fact that the ubuntu kernel people are making noise on
public conferences about unifying the kernel (based on their stuff) for all
debian and debian based distros, while nobody at the debian kernel team is
aware of that, and contrary to when fabbionne was the ubuntu kernel
maintainer, ben collins hardly communicates with us.

I gave up on trying to communicate with the ubuntu kernel folk about pegasos
support since then, and when i learned they dropped the mkvmlinuz support
with a "nobody should be using oldworlds by now" comment, which was extremely
clueless as oldworlds don't use it, only ibm chrp, pseries and the pegasos,
weeks after genesi became a ubuntu partner, i decided to let this pass by the
hierarchical way instead.

I note also that Andres Salomon is now, to a degree, involved with the ubuntu
folk, which is ok with me, but may color his request with regard to the above.

I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely
patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a
year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i
never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being
offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? 

So, please tell me when i have said anything such to you in the context of
debian, i would be very surprised about it.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 15 Mar 2006, Adeodato Simó verbalised:

> - I've seem him repeteadly exhaust people's patience, both over
> important discussion, and over trivialities; which is, ok,
> something not so uncommon in this project, albeit undesirable.
>
> - I've seen him hijack technical discussions, making the possibility
> of a conclusion impossible due to him going over and over the same
> points in an unproductive fashion; which is, ook, something not
> so uncommon in this project, albeit very undesirable.

The degree of intractability and volume of mail filled with
 insults, little jabs, distortions, and mis-characterizations count.

> - I've seen him several times reject good or even optimum solutions
> to problems, upon which a fair number of other people agreed, just
> for them going against his own personal agenda; which is, oook,
> something not so uncommon in this project, albeit very very
> undesirable.

> - BUT, I've also seen him, in uncountable occasions, steal the joy
> of hacking on Debian from many valuable developers of the project,
> make them frustrated and unhappy by continuously ignoring their
> request to be left alone, and make them less than willing to spend
> their time improving the technical quality of subsystems where
> Svenl was also involved. And this is something that, fortunately,
> one does not get to see everyday in the project, and something
> that has made me terribly sad whenever I've had to watch it.

I strongly agree that Sven Luther is a disruptive element, and
 his presence hurts the project more than it helps. I have found a
 pattern of behaviour from him, where any discussion first focuses on
 blame allocation, and swiftly proceeds to personal recrimination,
 mischaracterization, and extreme polemics. Indeed, it is my
 experience that his prolific, rude, and relentless insults,
 misquotes, and distortions often result in delays in discovering the
 correct technical solution to the problem being investigated.

By itself this would not be enough, but the pattern of
 bahaviour has lead to people opting not to join the kernel team,
 myself included.

A recent example of his not keeping the personal attacks away
 even after repeated requests and admonitions can be seen in the
 recent escalation to the tech ctte, where Ian had to repeatedly
 rebuke Sven, and even then he did not refrain.

Sven has not limited his activities to a single mailing list
 in the past, and this recaltricanse, refusal to listen to moderating
 voices, or even rebukes from the tech-ctte folks (and I do not mean
 myself), and the creation of a hostile working environment in any
 aspect of the project he touches is a reason this action should
 proceed. 

> I haven't decided myself whether I think this procedure is too much
> for this particular case or not, and I'm aware that Svenl is not
> regarded as so nocive by many people who just see his good technical
> work and not him interact with others. But, if you want to listen, I
> do think Svenl has done much harm, if not to the project, to the
> _PEOPLE_ involved in some parts of the project, which is something
> that needs a solution. It's bad if your actions jeopardize a
> project's good name, or decrement its overall quality, but it's not
> bad but terrible when they go directly to contributors' feelings and
> amount of motivaion. Again, not sure still the proposed solution is
> the best.

> Also, just as a small anecdote: during the huge Vancouver thread, I
> mentally marked two people as having had a terribe and inexcusable
> behavior, and Svenl was one of them. While several people expressed
> their unhappiness or frustration very strongly, sometimes with nasty
> accusations or even insults, my mind could, while disagreeing to it,
> explain those reactions by putting them under a "caused by
> unbearable frustration" category; Svenl's behavior, otoh, surpassed
> the limits of my mind.


I do not have a comment on his technical expertise, but
 echnical expertise does not trump collegiality. I am not asking for
 Mr. Rogers neighborhood here, I have been in too  many flamewars not
 to know a certain degree of friction is inevitable in a large
 organization like Debian. Sven is one of two people I think of as
 having a deleterious systemic  effect.

manoj
-- 
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence.  Second
marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Matthew Garrett]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:05PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:

> I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason
> for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a
> printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you or
> the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the
> bug report.

I hadn't replied to the bug report because I wasn't involved in the 
Ubuntu kernel at the point when it was filed, so I didn't reply there. 
When you brought my attention to it, I pointed out two issues that you 
could fix in seconds. I had none of the hardware in question, and didn't 
want to spend time trying to work out if there was some subtle reason 
for the code being there. There was certainly no effort to sabotage your 
platform, and I haven't heard any sort of apology for your accusations.

> I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely
> patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a
> year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i
> never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being
> offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? 

I have absolutely no recollection of this happening, and can't find any 
references to you talking to me about it in my logs. You appeared to 
spend some time arguing with Thibaut Varene - are you sure you're not 
confused?

Friendly,
-- 
Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 03:56:48PM +0100, Jorgen Schaefer wrote:
> Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 09:01:09PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> >> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> >> ,
> >> and I have already completed step 1.
> >
> > Thanks very much Andres, this is really appreciated.
> >
> > /me leaves in disgust.
> 
> Not being involved in the kernel team at all, I'd be rather
> interested in your point of view on this - seemingly severe -
> issue.
> 
> Do you think you could share it?

I had decided to keep silent for the next few week to let matters settle, but
as you ask directly and i was pointer to your question, i will break that
resolution once, but please CC me privately in the future or something.

What Andres is reproaching me, is that i was too vocal in my disput with jonas
(and some previous disputes also with some others), and there he is right. I
was at a level of frustration which made me so irrational i used some (too)
strong words speaking to jonas and later vorlon. I notice though that jonas
called me names too previously, but i am trully baffled about the issue with
vorlon, since, maybe due to english not being my native tongue, it was
interpreted as badly, i meant that as mostly in a joking tone, altough i
failed to add a smiley or something (he was speaking about me and jonas, i
asked him a question about it and he left, so i said something like "bah,
coward", which i really really was not thinking could offend someone, and if
so i apologize for it).

I notice also, that if we are going to expulse people due to strong wordings,
i guess we should be expulsing half of debian, if not more.

Now, to the issue with jonas. I arrived at a level of frustration i seldom
reached on this issue, and it is all documented in the bug report #345067, the
last development being that jonas decided to close the bug (as requested by me
since the begining and even hinted at in november), without crediting the
crucial role i played in finding the reason for the bug, nobody before me, and
particularly not jonas whose job it was, did investigate the issue in the code
itself, they all prefered to resort to wild hypothesis and shuffling modules
around instead. I commented that this was not correct, which lead to Andres
asking for my removal.

Anyway, i am now in some personal problems (i learned friday that my mother
will probably die in the next 2 months) and i really don't have time or energy
to defend me or other such, so i will step back from debian activity and this
whole mess for some time, sad that it had come to that after 8 years of active
partiticipation, and will devote my time to my mother.

I am probabably not going to post on this issue anymore, all or most of the
fact are public, i think i tried to handle jonas as best i could, and every
morning i tried to contribute positively to the solution of this issue, until
it ended again in the same level of frustration due to jonas thigh-headedness.
This does not excuse my behaviour though, but i think i did much to solve this
issue in a good way, even though i didn't manage to stay calm and posed as i
know i should have. I apologize for the problems i caused everyone on this,
and hope you all good luck for the next time, and will try to contribute more
when things have settled some.

I also don't really think that the motion of expulsion will pass, as even
assufield didn't gather against him enough seconds for this to happen, and i
really don't think that i did worse than him, but that would be up to you all
to judge.

I resent Andres some, because he passed hasty judgement on this without even
caring to hear me out (sure he spoke with me, but it was an one-sided kind of
conversation), and i particularly resent him how he escalated this to the
world during the DPL debate.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:10PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:05PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> 
> > I was a bit short on you, because you started to make noise about the reason
> > for the refusal being a #include being wrongly placed in the patch, and a
> > printk that was not strictly necessary, which i think for someone like you 
> > or
> > the ubuntu kernel team is a joke reason not to even do a single reply on the
> > bug report.
> 
> I hadn't replied to the bug report because I wasn't involved in the 
> Ubuntu kernel at the point when it was filed, so I didn't reply there. 
> When you brought my attention to it, I pointed out two issues that you 
> could fix in seconds. I had none of the hardware in question, and didn't 
> want to spend time trying to work out if there was some subtle reason 
> for the code being there. There was certainly no effort to sabotage your 
> platform, and I haven't heard any sort of apology for your accusations.

Well, i think that benc comment about "nobody should use oldworld's by now" is
particularly clueless, and you in particular did know better than that.

So, please stay to reality, and my maybe unjudicious use of the word
"sabotage" was dedicated to this second issue. Now, really, you should all
cool down, if one has to guard every word he says in order to not offend folk,
this is going to be no fun at all. And we elected branden as DPL even :)

> > I also remember that you where much less than curteous and extremely
> > patronizing when i proposed myself to handle the ubuntu powerpc kernels, a
> > year or so ago, when i still believed that cooperation was possible, and i
> > never heard you apologize for that, so should we expulse you for both being
> > offensive to me (and having gone over to the ennemy :) ? 
> 
> I have absolutely no recollection of this happening, and can't find any 
> references to you talking to me about it in my logs. You appeared to 
> spend some time arguing with Thibaut Varene - are you sure you're not 
> confused?

I may indeed be confused about this, if so i apologize.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 03:47:05PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> - I've seen him several times reject good or even optimum solutions
>   to problems, upon which a fair number of other people agreed, just
>   for them going against his own personal agenda; which is, oook,
>   something not so uncommon in this project, albeit very very
>   undesirable.

please provide backing for this diffamation, especially the accusation of not
having the best of debian in mind, but a personal agenda.

>   Svenl was also involved. And this is something that, fortunately,
>   one does not get to see everyday in the project, and something
>   that has made me terribly sad whenever I've had to watch it.

I was in clear distress over this issue with jonas, and nobody considered it
worth intervening except a few. i appealed to the tech comittee and jonas
countered with outright lies and inexactitudes, and then i see aj commended
jonas for working hard to solve the problem, while he has done nothing at all
upto there.

>   I haven't decided myself whether I think this procedure is too much
>   for this particular case or not, and I'm aware that Svenl is not
>   regarded as so nocive by many people who just see his good technical
>   work and not him interact with others. But, if you want to listen, I

jonas is also known to be difficult to work with, and this nobody even thought
may have an influence on me. Of the 4 times in 8 years of my participation in
debian, that things degenerated, he was involved twice, and when i meet him in
real life and tried to solve the issue, i had the same problems i had on
irc/mail to even communicate with him, which is something totally different
from my experience with frans, who i also had words with in the past, and was
perfectly able to work with in extremadura, ask him please.

But then, i also fail to understand the fellow members of the debian-kernel
team, when i warn them about the yaird situation, and particularly jonas words
in erkelenz :

  - i don't understand the issue enough to comment on it.
  - i can't do anything without the advice of my upstream.
  ( especially given that his upstream has been MIA since december).
  - please contact the tech committee if you disagree with how i handle this
bug.
  - 

>   do think Svenl has done much harm, if not to the project, to the
>   _PEOPLE_ involved in some parts of the project, which is something

And i think that much harm and hurt has been done to me, and that people like
andres, i counted as friend on this, and stood with when he had his
difficulties with the security team and dam and whatever, backstabbed me so.
He did indeed speak to me once, but it was a one-way patronizing kind of
thing, not something which could help the problem.

>   that needs a solution. It's bad if your actions jeopardize a project's
>   good name, or decrement its overall quality, but it's not bad but

Ah, and andres attacking the security team publicly doesn't fall in the same
category ? 

>   terrible when they go directly to contributors' feelings and amount of
>   motivaion. Again, not sure still the proposed solution is the best.

And then, what do you think about people who stubbornly refuse to fix bugs
when users are seeing them ? Even though help is offered in all good faith ? 

Do we care about our users or only our pride ? 

>   Also, just as a small anecdote: during the huge Vancouver thread, I
>   mentally marked two people as having had a terribe and inexcusable
>   behavior, and Svenl was one of them. While several people expressed

I agree with that, still many had the same strong feeling about the whole
vancouver process, and i can probably name at least 10 or more people who
agreed with me on that.

>   their unhappiness or frustration very strongly, sometimes with nasty
>   accusations or even insults, my mind could, while disagreeing to it,
>   explain those reactions by putting them under a "caused by unbearable
>   frustration" category; Svenl's behavior, otoh, surpassed the limits of
>   my mind.
> 
>   Technical problems are hard, but we love them; social problems are
>   harder, and we repeteadly ignore them until they explode.

And ignore people who, maybe not directly, ask for help, and fall of them like
a pack of wolves when they stumble, right ? 

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 07:26:07PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:10PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > I hadn't replied to the bug report because I wasn't involved in the 
> > Ubuntu kernel at the point when it was filed, so I didn't reply there. 
> > When you brought my attention to it, I pointed out two issues that you 
> > could fix in seconds. I had none of the hardware in question, and didn't 
> > want to spend time trying to work out if there was some subtle reason 
> > for the code being there. There was certainly no effort to sabotage your 
> > platform, and I haven't heard any sort of apology for your accusations.
> 
> Well, i think that benc comment about "nobody should use oldworld's by now" is
> particularly clueless, and you in particular did know better than that.

Fortunately, that isn't what was said, and you should stop placing quotation
marks around it.

-- 
 - mdz


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 09:40:15AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds directly to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well.
> 
> For the people who seem to think that there are more constructive ways
> of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion process:
> 
> http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt
> 
> This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened Jonas.  If
> he had actually changed his behavior sometime in the past two years,

/me remembers having threatened jonas last thursday, so Andres clearly seems
to live in some kind of parallel world :)

> rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that must be won
> at all costs, I would not be making this request.

Yeah, well. I waited almost three month for something to happen on that bug
report, and nothing ever came of it. I also note that jonas is not excempt
from the fault, and that other had had trouble dealing with him, even if you
didn't know that when you made your hasty judgement.

Friendly, still,

Sven Luther



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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 11:53:04AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> I strongly agree that Sven Luther is a disruptive element, and
>  his presence hurts the project more than it helps. I have found a
>  pattern of behaviour from him, where any discussion first focuses on
>  blame allocation, and swiftly proceeds to personal recrimination,
>  mischaracterization, and extreme polemics. Indeed, it is my
>  experience that his prolific, rude, and relentless insults,
>  misquotes, and distortions often result in delays in discovering the
>  correct technical solution to the problem being investigated.

This comming from you, who insulted me on irc together with jonas while i may
have argued, but never used a and insulting word, about the ramdisk generation
issue, i guess you have no shame.

> By itself this would not be enough, but the pattern of
>  bahaviour has lead to people opting not to join the kernel team,
>  myself included.

You did never intent to do so, since you clearly said numerous time that you
where frustrated with the kernel team taking over your work on kernel-package,
and that you put self-compiled kernels at a higher priority than the official
debian kernels.

Already people like Bastian Blank are so frustrated with you that they
repeteadly threatened to remove all dependency on kernel-package from the
kernel, and which i tried to convince not do to anything hasty since i
believed in agreement with you that this would not be the best for debian.

> A recent example of his not keeping the personal attacks away
>  even after repeated requests and admonitions can be seen in the
>  recent escalation to the tech ctte, where Ian had to repeatedly
>  rebuke Sven, and even then he did not refrain.

Yeah, sure, i apologized for that, i was beside myself, and should have stayed
away from a computer during it. You don't say a word of this, right ? And i
never saw any excuse coming from your part when you and jonas insulted me on
irc, while i believe i have always presented apologizes and tried to restart
the thread positively. On this exact issue with jonas, i 4 times tried to
forget all my grieves, and provide reasonable, constructive and friendly
further technical content, only to had it ruined again by jonas behavior. Not
one or twice, but 4 times, and even when i proved him without doubt that there
was no way his point could be possible, with a lengthy code analysis of the
kernel did he relent and accept this. And then he credited jurij, but not me
in the changelog entry closing the bug.

> Sven has not limited his activities to a single mailing list
>  in the past, and this recaltricanse, refusal to listen to moderating
>  voices, or even rebukes from the tech-ctte folks (and I do not mean
>  myself), and the creation of a hostile working environment in any
>  aspect of the project he touches is a reason this action should
>  proceed. 

Thanks so much. This is how you repay me for taking care of kernel-package
when you where away on medical trouble, but what could i expect more from you.
The exact same thing you accuse me of, you are self subject to to some degree,
and my error has been not to back away and let you have the final word, as i
did in person in erkelenz with jonas because i noticed it may end badly had i
not.

> I do not have a comment on his technical expertise, but
>  echnical expertise does not trump collegiality. I am not asking for
>  Mr. Rogers neighborhood here, I have been in too  many flamewars not
>  to know a certain degree of friction is inevitable in a large
>  organization like Debian. Sven is one of two people I think of as
>  having a deleterious systemic  effect.

I believe i am one of the only who speak up when i see manifest errors being
done, and this together with english not being my native tongue, and maybe a
fault in my caracter who make me to emotive on this things, lead to obvious
clash when faced with people who have the same character dispositions. This
includes you, jonas and fjp, altough i believe that i could work with all of
you except jonas just nicely despite this.

So, before you bane me, please look at your own reflection on this, and how
you handled the selfsame situation you accuse me of.

Finally, i don't think i need to apologize for being to emotional in wanting
to make debian the best distribution out there, and pointing out technical
errors, even if not in the best of form, but really falling on me like a pack
of wolves when i cried out for help on handling this issue is not the ideal i
see in debian, and make me think twice about investing so much of my time in
it.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 10:54:58AM -0800, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 07:26:07PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:56:10PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > > I hadn't replied to the bug report because I wasn't involved in the 
> > > Ubuntu kernel at the point when it was filed, so I didn't reply there. 
> > > When you brought my attention to it, I pointed out two issues that you 
> > > could fix in seconds. I had none of the hardware in question, and didn't 
> > > want to spend time trying to work out if there was some subtle reason 
> > > for the code being there. There was certainly no effort to sabotage your 
> > > platform, and I haven't heard any sort of apology for your accusations.
> > 
> > Well, i think that benc comment about "nobody should use oldworld's by now" 
> > is
> > particularly clueless, and you in particular did know better than that.
> 
> Fortunately, that isn't what was said, and you should stop placing quotation
> marks around it.

Ok, second hand knowledge only, but this is how it was brought to my
attention, feel free to correct me though.

I am still a bit disgusted of seeing a bug report i provided to ubuntu, with
patch and all the proper research immediately after the breezy beta go
unanswered and uncared for though, so this may color my relationship with
ubuntu, but i did also personally remove myself from all ubuntu channels and
lists in order to not bother you with my personal issues, so seeing matthew
bring this in here is i believe not correct.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Regarding the NEW queue (Was: Re: NEW queue backing up again -- ftpmasters, any explanation or comment?)

[Micah Anderson]

On 2006-03-13, Jeroen van Wolffelaar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nobody mailed ftpmaster@ about the size of the NEW queue. -devel isn't 
> a contact address for ftp-master, at least speaking for myself,
> mailinglists have a much lower priority than things like ftpmaster mail,
> and when backlogged with mail, I tend to skip parts too, if it's too
> high-traffic at times.
>
>> Is there a reason why the question should be made in private?
>
> It seems as if only problems and annoyances end up on mailinglists, and
> *not* to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The don't specifically need to be made private, but
> I don't think it'd be too much to ask for questions to ftpmaster to be
> mailed to the our published contact address? How would you feel if
> people complained about lacking piuparts updates on -devel, stating it's
> unaccepteable and the maintainer should've been recruiting a
> co-maintainer, without that person ever having contacted you?
>
> That's, roughly, what happens with ftp-master often. We do our best to
> answer all inquiries, but are not perfect. However, of those issues
> coming to some mailinglist, more often than not there's not even an
> attempt to mail ftp-master first, or at all. It's a kind of
> self-reenforcing loop if people don't think mailing helps, but then not
> even try, and mail -devel instead, making people think even more that
> mailing ftpmaster@ is futile.
>
> I agree transparency and openness are good things. I just disagree with
> the implication that mailing -devel _instead_ of ftpmaster@ is a
> good way to address an issue with ftpmaster.

In the interests of transparancy, openness, keeping people from
emailing debian-devel instead of [EMAIL PROTECTED] why not make the
published contact address for ftpmaster be a publically viewable
archive? It doesn't have to be a list that everyone can subscribe to
and give their individual nit-pick comments about everything that is
sent there, just make the email viewable.

Some people email -devel because they think maybe their email to
ftpmaster@ was never received, if they can verify it has been by
themselves, this would be a good thing. My guess is that people dont
think that mailing ftpmaster@ helps because it feels like a blackhole.
If the darkness was illuminated then people could see that ftpmaster@
does try really hard to respond to things, and that your message that
you sent there did arrive...

Perhaps there is a concern about privacy for some reason, but I am
sure issues involving privacy can be handled with care outside of a
public archived list.

Micah


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Gustavo Franco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]:
> It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically:
> The people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the
> people that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The
> minute after the release team announces that we're going to delay
> our next release, we will stop with these weird threads and keep
> arguing that we're all volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the
> humanity!
> 
> I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
> Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
> about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some
> time considering not my words, but just Etch.

Thank you!

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer and author: http://debiansystem.info
`. `'`
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
 
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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Joey Hess]

Adeodato Simó wrote:
>   I've never worked closely with Sven Luther, but I've lurked in some
>   teams he's member of, so if my capability as an observer is worth
>   something to you, you may be interested in this if you're unfamiliar
>   with Svenl.

I've led a team that Sven was involved in and I agree with your
observations completly.

For what it's worth, Sven is one of the two people I have ever had to
consider kicking out of d-i (the other left on his own accord), and he
is the only Debian developer (and indeed, the only person) whom I have
ever killfiled[1]. My stress levels have been quite a bit better since I
began systemtically ignoring him some months ago. I feel that I've been
a bit remiss in not addressing the problems he occasionally causes to
d-i though.

I am unsure if I support his expulsion from Debian, because I feel that
the ill will within the project engendered by such a process can only be
harmful to Debian as well, and it's very hard to weigh the two harms
against each other. I am very sure that I would be happier not to be
involved in any team that he is involved in, to the extent of not
joining such a team if possible.

-- 
see shy jo

[1] I tend to follow the killfile-less process described here for most
other problimatic people; it does not work for threads involving Sven.

http://www.kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/thread_patterns-2005-10-27-00-53.html


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Michael Banck]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 07:21:09PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> I had decided to keep silent for the next few week to let matters settle, but
> as you ask directly and i was pointer to your question, i will break that
> resolution once,

That resolution seems to have slipped by a mail or two now?

Your continuing replies seem to nicely demonstrate this exercise to some
degree.


cheers,

Michael

-- 
 vorlon: also, i don't intent to be agresive or something, and
keep the thread resonable, so if you feel insulted or something,
please take it as a problem with the language barrier.


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 02:26:09PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
> Adeodato Simó wrote:
> >   I've never worked closely with Sven Luther, but I've lurked in some
> >   teams he's member of, so if my capability as an observer is worth
> >   something to you, you may be interested in this if you're unfamiliar
> >   with Svenl.
> 
> I've led a team that Sven was involved in and I agree with your
> observations completly.
> 
> For what it's worth, Sven is one of the two people I have ever had to
> consider kicking out of d-i (the other left on his own accord), and he
> is the only Debian developer (and indeed, the only person) whom I have
> ever killfiled[1]. My stress levels have been quite a bit better since I
> began systemtically ignoring him some months ago. I feel that I've been
> a bit remiss in not addressing the problems he occasionally causes to
> d-i though.

Notice that i left almost if not all debian-boot involvement some time ago
because of that, and that the problems you mention where mostly caused by
Frans commenting on things i said on debian-kernel, and not really directed at
him, and he taked offense.

Notice also that i am still expecting excuses on how you threated me in april
last year, when i almost was brought to leave the project due to the abuse i
got at the time, but i really am not expecting them anymore. Ever since i have
questioned my involvement in debian, and after 8 years of participation, i
have to say that issues got worse and worse the last year since a few of you
guys used me as scapegoat to vent all their frustration on the delayed sarge
release.

So, i don't expect anything better from you, or manoj, or jonas. I notice
thought that i have worked fine with Frans in extremadura, and haven't really
caused any kind of trouble to the debian-boot team you mention since some
month now.

I did raise a few technical issues that are of the responsability of the
debian-boot team to solve with regard to the kernel issue, but upto now
nothing has happened there, and i fear that with me left, they may simply be
forgotten, altough i hope someone else will take them over.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Bug#357060: ITP: xfce4-radio-plugin -- A v4l radio control plugin for the Xfce4 panel

[Stefan Ott]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Stefan Ott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


* Package name: xfce4-radio-plugin
  Version : 0.1.0
  Upstream Author : Stefan Ott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://xfce-goodies.berlios.de/
* License : GPL
  Description : A v4l radio control plugin for the Xfce4 panel

This is an Xfce panel plugin which allows you to control your video4linux
radio device. You can turn your radio on/off, tune it to some frequency
and manage station presets.


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Daniel Stone]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 08:08:27PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> I am still a bit disgusted of seeing a bug report i provided to ubuntu, with
> patch and all the proper research immediately after the breezy beta go
> unanswered and uncared for though, so this may color my relationship with
> ubuntu, but i did also personally remove myself from all ubuntu channels and
> lists in order to not bother you with my personal issues, so seeing matthew
> bring this in here is i believe not correct.

Sven,
The following is technically a well-formed diff:

--- init/main.c.orig2006-03-15 23:11:48.0 +0200
+++ init/main.c 2006-03-15 23:12:23.0 +0200
@@ -653,6 +653,9 @@

 static int init(void * unused)
 {
+char *foo = NULL, *bar = NULL;
+strdup(bar, foo);
+
lock_kernel();
/*
 * init can run on any cpu.

However I don't think you'd be right to hold a grudge against anyone
who refused to apply it.  If Matthew raised some issues with your patch,
why did you not fix them?  Surely removing a debugging printk and moving
the #include to the head of the file would've been pretty obvious.

It's not an isolated event, either.  My refusal to apply a patch which
was unprecedented in the xorg packaging, for an issue that I feel (with
not insignificant justification) is a purely hardware issue was
presented as me hating on Pegasos.  Similarly, your refusal to fix the
patch you provided was also presented as the kernel team despising you
and the Pegasos.  (Money being paid or no.  Principles are principles,
mmm?)

You seem to have this horrendous victim syndrome, exacerbated by bizzare
claims you have better things to do with your time[0] when you throw a
hissy fit and leave.  Turning everyone's legitimate concerns into your
code into hate crusades against you and Genesi isn't in the least
productive, and I really wish you'd grow up and let it go.

Daniel

[0]: I say 'bizzare' because I guarantee it took you longer to write
 that mail than it would've to fix up the kernel patch Matthew
 pointed out legitimate issues in.


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Jonas Meurer]

On 14/03/2006 Andres Salomon wrote:
> Sven's behavior has always been combative (and some might argue
> hostile), but this is beyond what is acceptable.  He threatens bodily
> harm upon another developer in a public forum, and then a week later
> publically insults/taunts a developer (one of the Release Managers,
> even), behind his back.  This is incredibly childish, aggressive
> behavior, and should not be tolerated within the project (IMO).

don't you think that this proposal is childish as well?

it could be argued that it is even guardianship and censorship.

...
 jonas


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 11:17:06PM +0200, Daniel Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 08:08:27PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> > I am still a bit disgusted of seeing a bug report i provided to ubuntu, with
> > patch and all the proper research immediately after the breezy beta go
> > unanswered and uncared for though, so this may color my relationship with
> > ubuntu, but i did also personally remove myself from all ubuntu channels and
> > lists in order to not bother you with my personal issues, so seeing matthew
> > bring this in here is i believe not correct.
> 
> Sven,
> The following is technically a well-formed diff:
> 
> --- init/main.c.orig2006-03-15 23:11:48.0 +0200
> +++ init/main.c 2006-03-15 23:12:23.0 +0200
> @@ -653,6 +653,9 @@
> 
>  static int init(void * unused)
>  {
> +char *foo = NULL, *bar = NULL;
> +strdup(bar, foo);
> +
> lock_kernel();
> /*
>  * init can run on any cpu.
> 
> However I don't think you'd be right to hold a grudge against anyone
> who refused to apply it.  If Matthew raised some issues with your patch,
> why did you not fix them?  Surely removing a debugging printk and moving

Because he raised them after there was no way for me to change anything about
it, and the only way was 'wait 6 month for the dapper release', when i
submitted the patch immediately after the first beta, one full month before
the release, and this exact patch was asked by the ubuntu kernel team from me
after the breezy-1 release.

Providing patch, doing the work, just to have them ignored is a really
frustrating thing to happen, don't you agree ? 

> the #include to the head of the file would've been pretty obvious.

Sure, but then why was i not told that, nobody even commented on the patch,
and seriously, any decent kernel hacker would recognize this problem at the
first glance, and either fix it or put a comment in the bug report for the
submitter to fix it.

> It's not an isolated event, either.  My refusal to apply a patch which
> was unprecedented in the xorg packaging, for an issue that I feel (with
> not insignificant justification) is a purely hardware issue was
> presented as me hating on Pegasos.  Similarly, your refusal to fix the
> patch you provided was also presented as the kernel team despising you
> and the Pegasos.  (Money being paid or no.  Principles are principles,
> mmm?)

Well, if you remember well, we did solve this issue, did discuss it, and did
solve it to everyone satisfaction, did we not ? 

I believe that in a volunteer world like debian, plainly ignoring the work of
others who provide patches is the most despissable and insulting thing that
can happen, since contrary to paid workers, we all sacrifice our free time to
make this happen.

See the frustration you went over which led to your problems with the X strike
force, and i guess you would understand how i felt about this. For example, i
left all involvement with the X strike force, when i submitted a patch
(trivial patch, i committed almost all of it upstream), to enable the driver
SDK to work with the debian packages, and it was 3+ years long 'not quite
time'. Or when i had to flamewar during 6 month with Ethan Benson, before he
allowed the debian yaboot maintainer to even look at the amiga partition table
support patch.

> You seem to have this horrendous victim syndrome, exacerbated by bizzare
> claims you have better things to do with your time[0] when you throw a
> hissy fit and leave.  Turning everyone's legitimate concerns into your
> code into hate crusades against you and Genesi isn't in the least
> productive, and I really wish you'd grow up and let it go.

Nope, this i disclaim. i think there may be legitimate concern sometimes, but
other times there is just plain unexcusable behaviour disguised as legitimate
concern. This is clearly the case with this current jonas case, and i invite
you to read the bug report in question.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:47:14PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
[...]
> 
> 
> oh and btw, as you noted it, I attacked you personnaly, maybe you should 
> begin a procedure to expulse me.
> 
> 

There's a vast amount of difference between (your) intentional trolling and
unintentional, repeated abusive behavior.

Welcome to my killfile, though.


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 08:48:48PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 07:21:09PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> > I had decided to keep silent for the next few week to let matters settle, 
> > but
> > as you ask directly and i was pointer to your question, i will break that
> > resolution once,
> 
> That resolution seems to have slipped by a mail or two now?

Yep.

> Your continuing replies seem to nicely demonstrate this exercise to some
> degree.

But do you think that anything i said in those is insulting in some way, or a
reason for me to be expelled from debian ? 

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Regarding the NEW queue

[Goswin von Brederlow]

Micah Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> In the interests of transparancy, openness, keeping people from
> emailing debian-devel instead of [EMAIL PROTECTED] why not make the
> published contact address for ftpmaster be a publically viewable
> archive? It doesn't have to be a list that everyone can subscribe to
> and give their individual nit-pick comments about everything that is
> sent there, just make the email viewable.
>
> Some people email -devel because they think maybe their email to
> ftpmaster@ was never received, if they can verify it has been by
> themselves, this would be a good thing. My guess is that people dont
> think that mailing ftpmaster@ helps because it feels like a blackhole.
> If the darkness was illuminated then people could see that ftpmaster@
> does try really hard to respond to things, and that your message that
> you sent there did arrive...
>
> Perhaps there is a concern about privacy for some reason, but I am
> sure issues involving privacy can be handled with care outside of a
> public archived list.
>
> Micah

We have a BTS for this sort of things. Everyone can file bugs and
ftp-master can comment during the process and even close the report
when the issue is resolved.

That sounds almost perfect. Why not encourage the use of it for
ftp-master problems?

MfG
Goswin


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Re: Request of expulsion of Zeke the Cat from the Debian Project

[John Gee]

Wouter Verhelst, you are an idiot.  With my years working with
Sven Luther, barring a little pornography issue I was not fond he had,
I still could cope with his attitude.  But you guys worship
him.  It's like I've always said, you guys are going to distroy
yourselves.  And when you do I don't want you crawling back to
me.  I've already heard your arguments for and against me running
one of the teams I'll not mention, but whoever does shouldn't worship
another DD like Pierre Habouzit and others are.  
  
John Gee

Re: gnucash 1.9.1

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

"Damyan Ivanov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Do you prefer to get bugreports via BTS or should these be forwarded
> directly upstream?

BTS is always good.  It's fine if you also report them upstream; if
you submit them to the upstream bugzilla, please mention the correct
link in a "forwarded-to" in the BTS.

Thomas


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Re: GFDL question

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

Norbert Preining <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Ok, there are no invariant sections, but there is (a short) front and
> back cover text.
>
> How do we proceed with these documents?

The resolution which passed excludes documentation with front cover
texts.  Read it.


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Otavio Salvador]

Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> I strongly oppose to such an expulsion.
>
> It amazes me that people oppose expulsion, but are perfectly happy to
> allow the DAMs to decide whether or not a NM is to be let into the
> project.  Why do we trust the DAM's judgement in one scenario but not
> the other?

I oppose to his (Sven) expulsion too.

Well, I don't trust all actions of DAM's neither of anybody else. I
think each action need to be judge by time.

I think we all do mistakes. I agree that Sven sometimes is very rudy
like a lot of other DDs here and there. That isn't a reason to remove
him from the project.

I personally dislike that situation of Jonas and Sven and do thing
that those things shouldn't happen but we also need to look all good
work that Sven already did in past and continue to do in a lot of
areas of Debian et all.

I work with him in some projects (Parted and MOL) and never had
problems to deal with him. We always discussed all things without
problems.

-- 
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-
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Re: Request of expulsion of Zeke the Cat from the Debian Project

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 02:47:21PM -0700, John Gee wrote:
> *Wouter Verhelst, you are an idiot.

Thanks for the compliment.

> With my years working with Sven Luther, barring a little pornography
> issue I was not fond he had, I still could cope with his attitude.

Great. So what changed?

> But you guys worship him.

Err, no. I don't worship people, and I don't intend to. It's not about
liking people, thinking of them as "friend", or "worshipping" them. It's
about respect, and about keeping an atmosphere where working on
something, and being productive, is still possible.

What worries me is that the fact that the fact that there is an
"official" procedure to kick someone out now seems to have lowered the
barrier to suggesting that. Previously, when there was some social issue
between developers, people would try to work out their differences, or
-- if that wasn't possible -- find something else to work on instead, so
that they didn't have to keep up with the disruptive behaviour anymore.

This is a good thing, for it's impossible to like everyone, or even to
be likeable to everyone. I know some people who don't like me, and I
do also know some people that I personally don't like. Such is life. And
in a project the size of Debian, it's normal that there are at least
_some_ people that you won't get along with easily.

You can ask for those people to get kicked out, but all that will really
accomplish, is that you will show the world that you can't be bothered
to even try to get along with people. And with "the world", I really
mean "the world".

> It's like I've always said, you guys are going to distroy yourselves.

If these expulsion procedures keep getting invoked, I couldn't agree
more.

> And when you do I don't want you crawling back to me.  I've already
> heard your arguments for and against me running one of the teams I'll
> not mention, but whoever does shouldn't worship another DD like
> **Pierre Habouzit and others are.

Err, I can't parse that.

-- 
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  -- Seven Of Nine, "Ashes to Ashes", stardate 53679.4


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[José David]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dear Friends,

First of all i apologise for my poor english (portuguese :-))

I follow de dev lists of debian for several months now, my knowlege in
linux whas not so good so i never applyed to be a developper and also
my time isnt much :-(. (maybe i will change that soon)

Being a pleasent system (IMHO The Best), Debian picked my attention
for the software but """also for the ideals""".

I probably shouldnt be wryting to a list where nobody knows me but
here it goes

Now really people, i dot think matters like this being discussed is in
the interess of anyone. One because he gets mad to everyone and says
thing not so pleasent (dont think im trying to excuse that :-)), other
because they feal like my wife when i "accidentally lol" brake my
keyboard against the wall, and start to think that nobody loves them
etc etc etc

Friends, please keep in mind the following:

- -YOU ALL are important has you are, with your deffects and
qualityes.
- -Linux world needs more people not kick out anyone!!! Can whe really
afford that ??
- -Community is some times problems and if you dont like it, please
work
on your own not with anybody else.

This being said i will ask everyone the following:

PLEASE keep up the good work and correct bugs, enjoy developing new
things, help hus linux lovers to bring people from the "dark side" of
it the "bright side" ;-) and dont whaist you time with this matters.

On behalf off the good relations, I as a user, ask for forgiveness to
anyone who think he is offended with sven' s words or acts. Also ask
to sven to join a fighting club :-) all that anger may be in your
profit. ;-)
Seriously i understand you all, i am also a little bit rough some
times but that doesnt mean that i am not a great guy!!!

Sorry for interrupting your work and conversatiosn with this,

Friendly

José David




Sven Luther escreveu:

> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at
09:40:15AM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> 
>> The DAM has accepted the request; please send seconds
directly to
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED], cc'ing me as well.
>> 
>> For the people who seem to think that there are more
constructive
>> ways of dealing w/ this issue rather than the expulsion
process:
>> 
>> http://squishy.cc/svenl.txt
>> 
>> This is a lot from two weeks ago, right after Sven threatened
>> Jonas. If he had actually changed his behavior sometime in
the
>> past two years,
> 
> 
> /me remembers having threatened jonas last thursday, so Andres
> clearly seems to live in some kind of parallel world :)
> 
>> rather than just viewing every discussion as a battle that
must
>> be won at all costs, I would not be making this request.
> 
> 
> Yeah, well. I waited almost three month for something to happen
on
> that bug report, and nothing ever came of it. I also note that
> jonas is not excempt from the fault, and that other had had
trouble
> dealing with him, even if you didn't know that when you made your
> hasty judgement.
> 
> Friendly, still,
> 
> Sven Luther
> 
> 
>

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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Geert Stappers]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 10:59:46AM -0500, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> So far, I have never took the time to study the detail of the expulsion
> process, so sorry if this mail is inappropriate. But be sure that I will
> do everything I can as a DD to stop Sven's expulsion.

Here another DD that doesn't has time to study the expulsion process.

Right now is my approach to wait for a voting for the actual expulsion
and then vote to keep Sven Luther _in_ the project.

Let me know if I need to do something else to keep luther a DD.


Geert Stappers

P.S.
Cc me about this energy drain issue


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Frans Pop]

Dear Sven,

So, where do I stand in this expulsion thingy?
So far I've resisted mailing on this thread. My general feelings were very 
well worded by Adeodato Simó. However, my name being brought up in your 
reply to Joey kind of forces me.

I don't actually think that expulsion is the correct action in this case 
(even though I was one of the initiators of the previous request), so I 
will not support it. That said, I understand what drove Andres to doing 
it very well.

I would very much hope that instead of feeling abused and misunderstood, 
the comments in this thread and the fact that some people _do_ think your 
behavior is bad enough to warrant expulsion will make you take a good 
hard look at your own behavior.

It would also be very nice if you could change your habits regarding:
- feeling personally insulted when people disagree with you
- dragging in old grievances on unrelated issues
- repeating yourself over and over and over and over in the same thread
  (let alone in unrelated threads)
- replying to each and every message in a thread where you feel in some
  way personally involved
- always replying "to all" instead of just the mailing list, even when
  repeatedly asked not to do so (you could even manually trim the address
  list, but I guess that would take to much time with the volume of mail
  you send - see previous item)

I think it would probably also be a good idea if you concentrated your 
involvement into areas you actually enjoy working on.
It seems to me that you don't actually enjoy kernel and d-i powerpc work, 
but rather see it as an obligation because your business in part depends 
on Debian supporting powerpc.

Below is a nice flame from me in reply to your reply to Joey. Please don't 
bother answering if you're not prepared to accept a large part of the 
blame for this expulsion process.
After all, how come so many people involved in this thread all work 
happily together but all have problems working with you? Ah, but of 
course, the problem must lie with them, it could never lie with you, 
right?

Cheers,
FJP

P.S. I was very sorry to hear about your mother. My sympathy for the
 difficult time ahead.


On Wednesday 15 March 2006 20:51, Sven Luther wrote:
> Notice that i left almost if not all debian-boot involvement some time
> ago because of that, and that the problems you mention where mostly

Ah, so that is basically why powerpc support in d-i is in the state it is.

I actually consider powerpc the worst supported port in d-i at the moment 
[0]. And that is not because "we broke things that were working perfectly 
during the Sarge release", but because you, as the main powerpc d-i 
porter and our main contact with the powerpc community, have failed to 
keep up with development and to run occasional tests and to get the rest 
of the powerpc community behind you to solve issues.

Instead you wait until just before a release and then try to get untested 
changes uploaded because "of course we cannot release while powerpc 
support is broken".
I really do wonder why you build the daily d-i images if you don't try 
them occasionally.

> caused by Frans commenting on things i said on debian-kernel, and not
> really directed at him, and he taked offense.

They were directed against debian-installer and were mostly a repeat of 
the complaint (in an unrelated thread) that the way d-i handles kernel 
udebs is totally broken.
So I felt that, as d-i release manager, it was my job to ask you to not 
repeatedly bash d-i over an issue that had been discussed extensively 
before and which ended unresolved because you were unwilling to consider 
some of the objections to your grand plan, which basically consisted of 
hijacking the kernel udebs. My asking you to stop resulted in you feeling 
personally insulted which resulted in a nice flamewar.

It is absolutely no fun to hear that something you spend a lot of time on 
is continually being described as "fucked" (kernel udebs, partman) and 
when you're blamed for accidental breakage (which happens mostly because 
of the complexity of d-i and not through malice and is often fairly 
easily fixed if only the people involved are willing to do it right, 
which luckily most are).

> Notice also that i am still expecting excuses on how you threated me in
> april last year, when i almost was brought to leave the project due to
> the abuse i got at the time, but i really am not expecting them
> anymore.

Why can't you just forget about it instead? You keep bringing this up 
every two months or so. How does that help?
Your habit of dredging up old grievances is one of the things that makes 
you a pain to work with.
It's just like what you do with smileys: you seem to think that you can 
abuse someone and that putting a smiley after it as an afterthought will 
make it OK. Well, it does not.

> Ever since i have questioned my involvement in debian, and 
> after 8 years of participation, i have to say that issues got worse and

What does that mea

Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Sven Luther [Wed, Mar 15 2006, 08:04:50PM]:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 11:53:04AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > I strongly agree that Sven Luther is a disruptive element, and
> >  his presence hurts the project more than it helps. I have found a
> >  pattern of behaviour from him, where any discussion first focuses on
> >  blame allocation, and swiftly proceeds to personal recrimination,
> >  mischaracterization, and extreme polemics. Indeed, it is my
> >  experience that his prolific, rude, and relentless insults,
> >  misquotes, and distortions often result in delays in discovering the
> >  correct technical solution to the problem being investigated.
> 
> This comming from you, who insulted me on irc together with jonas while i may
> have argued, but never used a and insulting word, about the ramdisk generation
> issue, i guess you have no shame.

Sven, you have a problem with not having the last word in a dispute.
If someone hurts you (or even it may _look_ for you this way while it
has not been meant to be offensive), you cannot stop and reconsider your
actions. You have to kick your opponent again and again, and you insist
on leaving the battle as a winner. At some point either you or your
opponents (driven by your aggresive kind) began with stupid polemics,
and on this point the constructive discussion is over. Eye for an eye is
not a good way to find acceptable solutions.

I am not sure that you do realize that. Because you did not anything
wrong in your POV. And because eye-for-an-eye strategy may look okay in
your eyes, and pushing the tone of the discussion into the dirt is
acceptable risk (collateral damage). I am not sure that you won't be able
to learn to act more cooperatively, trying to find compromises. But you
have been warned and you shall get another chance, therefore I do not
support this expulsion process (yet).

Eduard.
-- 
Wahrlich, keiner ist weise, der nicht das Dunkel kennt.
-- Hermann Hesse


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 08:23:53PM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote:
> #include 
> * Sven Luther [Wed, Mar 15 2006, 08:04:50PM]:
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 11:53:04AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > > I strongly agree that Sven Luther is a disruptive element, and
> > >  his presence hurts the project more than it helps. I have found a
> > >  pattern of behaviour from him, where any discussion first focuses on
> > >  blame allocation, and swiftly proceeds to personal recrimination,
> > >  mischaracterization, and extreme polemics. Indeed, it is my
> > >  experience that his prolific, rude, and relentless insults,
> > >  misquotes, and distortions often result in delays in discovering the
> > >  correct technical solution to the problem being investigated.
> > 
> > This comming from you, who insulted me on irc together with jonas while i 
> > may
> > have argued, but never used a and insulting word, about the ramdisk 
> > generation
> > issue, i guess you have no shame.
> 
> Sven, you have a problem with not having the last word in a dispute.
> If someone hurts you (or even it may _look_ for you this way while it
> has not been meant to be offensive), you cannot stop and reconsider your
> actions. You have to kick your opponent again and again, and you insist
> on leaving the battle as a winner. At some point either you or your
> opponents (driven by your aggresive kind) began with stupid polemics,
> and on this point the constructive discussion is over. Eye for an eye is
> not a good way to find acceptable solutions.
> 
> I am not sure that you do realize that. Because you did not anything
> wrong in your POV. And because eye-for-an-eye strategy may look okay in
> your eyes, and pushing the tone of the discussion into the dirt is
> acceptable risk (collateral damage). I am not sure that you won't be able
> to learn to act more cooperatively, trying to find compromises. But you
> have been warned and you shall get another chance, therefore I do not
> support this expulsion process (yet).

Well, this may be true, but it is a bit difficult though to stand by and have
its public process being made without intervening.

And then have those who insulted me personally (and sorry, but i believe fuck
off and idiot are more than match for coward), without even thinking the hurt
they could do, now stand up and support my removal. This after years and years
of contribution to debian, it is hard to take.

Also, this exact point you are making, is i believe a perception problem,
because it is exactly what made me misbehave in the case of jonas. I did the
work he should have done, proved without doubt, after a many hour examination
of the linux kernel source code, than he was wrong, and then i see aj
comending him for trying to solve the issue, and having things well in hand,
and some other guy menacing to publicly reprimand me, and jonas going on with
his bullshit. 

Sorry, i am ranting again, i need to stop, i know, but it is not easy.

Friendly,

Sven Luther



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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 07:20:20PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Gustavo Franco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]:
[...]
> > 
> > I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
> > Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
> > about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some
> > time considering not my words, but just Etch.
> 
> Thank you!
> 

If I didn't care about etch, I could just as easily sit back and let Sven
do his thing (as I have been doing for the past few months); however, I
would like to see the release happen.  Given the time and resources that
Sven's arguments consume, I am convinced that expelling him will make things
run a lot smoother.

For starters, I/we need to figure out a sane way to deal w/ 3rd party kernel
modules.  I'm not sure the status of this, since Sven was adamant about this
happening his way; I'm not even willing to even touch the issue while he's
active in the kernel team.  I don't need the extra stress.  If Sven remains
active, I intend to just ignore the issue and let someone else deal w/ it;
perhaps someone who thinks that expulsion is too harsh.



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removing logfiles on purge

[martin f krafft]

Hi all,

Chapter 10.8 of our policy says that log files "should be" removed
when a package is removed. I am writing this email to gather
feedback prior to proposing that this be changed. Especially in the
EU, I can imaging several situations in which removing the log files
during package purge can put the administrator into an undefined (==
unpleasant) legal situation.

If you've ever administered a production machine with hundreds of
users, you'll treat log files as valuable data. You'll kick and
scream if they get removed from under your fingers.

Why does the policy say that log files should be removed?

What are the reasons against leaving them around?

Thanks for any comments.

-- 
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 .''`. martin f. krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :proud Debian developer and author: http://debiansystem.info
`. `'`
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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 11:36:50PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> Dear Sven,



> It seems to me that you don't actually enjoy kernel and d-i powerpc work, 
> but rather see it as an obligation because your business in part depends 
> on Debian supporting powerpc.

This i cannot accept. My work obligation is exclusively to the 32bit pegasos
machine, and have nothing at all to do with the remaining of the powerpc
machines.

A quick google search will show you i was strongly active in all kind of
powerpc machines, from oldworld and nubus powermacs, to 64bit powerpc support,
passing with the amiga/apus ones.

I believe that this above idea is pure diffamation which bubled out of a
comment i made on the jonas/yaird thread, where i mentioned that i was indeed
taking a real life hit by him ignoring the bug, since i had to do user support
for all those users he willingly and uncaringly broke their system.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Steve Greenland]

On 15-Mar-06, 15:40 (CST), Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> But do you think that anything i said in those is insulting in some way, or a
> reason for me to be expelled from debian ? 

No, it's a demonstration of your apparent need to reply to *every*
*single* *message* in any thread that you get involved in, each reply
saying more-or-less the same thing, presumably under the assumption
that repeating an argument improves it, and that people are disagreeing
because the continue to misunderstand you.

I'm a little sympathetic, because I used to suffer from the same
disease, and I still have the occasional outbreak, but I'm trying hard,
and mostly getting better. I think.

In and of itself, it wouldn't be reason to expell you, because there are
several others around here who suffer similarly. But it doesn't make it
easier for people to defend you.

Steve
-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net


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Re: removing logfiles on purge

[Marco d'Itri]

On Mar 16, martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Chapter 10.8 of our policy says that log files "should be" removed
> when a package is removed. I am writing this email to gather
> feedback prior to proposing that this be changed. Especially in the
> EU, I can imaging several situations in which removing the log files
> during package purge can put the administrator into an undefined (==
> unpleasant) legal situation.
Then they should backup them before purging the package.

> If you've ever administered a production machine with hundreds of
> users, you'll treat log files as valuable data. You'll kick and
> scream if they get removed from under your fingers.
But when I purge a package I expect that log files will be deleted.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 02:45:42PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 07:20:20PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> > also sprach Gustavo Franco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]:
> [...]
> > > 
> > > I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
> > > Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
> > > about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some
> > > time considering not my words, but just Etch.
> > 
> > Thank you!
> > 
> 
> If I didn't care about etch, I could just as easily sit back and let Sven
> do his thing (as I have been doing for the past few months); however, I

Are you implying that it was because of me that you have taken a backseat
recently ? I remember somethign else, about you being frustrated with DAM and
the security team, and deciding to work more with the ubuntu guys at that
time. I was really sad to see this happen, as your input was very valuable to
the debian kernel team, and i told you so back then.

> would like to see the release happen.  Given the time and resources that
> Sven's arguments consume, I am convinced that expelling him will make things
> run a lot smoother.

maybe, but then you forget all the work i did to get 2.6.14 out, and i do
currently not believe that we would have achieved that much if i had not
strongly worked for it. I had to endure flames and insults from maks, manoj
and jonas over the ramdisk-generator issue, an issue all where talking about
since weeks and months, but nobody decided to act. Notice that already then
there was a rather odious flamewar, and it is instead disgusting to have to go
through such to get people to not dismiss you out of the hand because it is
not like they have been doing since since forever.

As a result, we solved the ramdisk generator dilemna to everybody's
satisfaction, we managed to do same-day releases, which nobody thought
possible, and was never heard off in debian (who was known for largely
out-dated kernels, and needing a whole month to upgrade the d-i kernel).

> For starters, I/we need to figure out a sane way to deal w/ 3rd party kernel
> modules.  I'm not sure the status of this, since Sven was adamant about this
> happening his way; I'm not even willing to even touch the issue while he's

I notice though that back then my way, was also the way you advocated against
manoj. Strange no, the way memory work.

> active in the kernel team.  I don't need the extra stress.  If Sven remains
> active, I intend to just ignore the issue and let someone else deal w/ it;
> perhaps someone who thinks that expulsion is too harsh.

There are other issue to be dealt with :

  - the problem of the drivers with non-free firmware, and how d-i will be
able to load those of external media ? This to this day is not solved,
altough i tried to push for a resolution on this. I have some doubt this
will be solved in the etch timeframe, or will be a last minute hack.

  - the problem of out-of-tree modules. Bastian Blank is working on this, and
i am plainly confident he will do so with success.

  - the problem of d-i .udebs, and the mess they are in. We achieved much with
the common infrastructure kernel, which i was the first in advocating, and
getting flames by joeyh and others back then for even suggesting it, but
this has to be continued to the d-i kernel .udebs to be complete. It works
nicely for ubuntu, so why not for us ? 

I leave this all to you, i hope you are up to the responsability, and will not
participate again in the kernel team until i am asked to.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:48:38PM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote:
> On 15-Mar-06, 15:40 (CST), Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> > But do you think that anything i said in those is insulting in some way, or 
> > a
> > reason for me to be expelled from debian ? 
> 
> No, it's a demonstration of your apparent need to reply to *every*
> *single* *message* in any thread that you get involved in, each reply
> saying more-or-less the same thing, presumably under the assumption
> that repeating an argument improves it, and that people are disagreeing
> because the continue to misunderstand you.

Yeah, well.

There is a difference here though, this is my public process for expulsion,
and i believe i should have the right to be heard. I tried to stay out of it
altogether, but was asked to reply, and was sucked in again, sorry, i am
trying to take more and more of it to public mail though.

> I'm a little sympathetic, because I used to suffer from the same
> disease, and I still have the occasional outbreak, but I'm trying hard,
> and mostly getting better. I think.

:)

> In and of itself, it wouldn't be reason to expell you, because there are
> several others around here who suffer similarly. But it doesn't make it
> easier for people to defend you.

Ok, thanks for this insight.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Aníbal Monsalve Salazar]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:48:38PM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote:
>I'm a little sympathetic, because I used to suffer from the same
>disease, and I still have the occasional outbreak, but I'm trying
>hard, and mostly getting better. I think.

It appears as if you're diagnosing svenl with the "same disease"
that you're suffering.

Is the desease called obsessive-compulsive disorder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_disorder

Aníbal Monsalve Salazar
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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Sven Luther]

On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 11:07:02AM +1100, Aníbal Monsalve Salazar wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 05:48:38PM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote:
> >I'm a little sympathetic, because I used to suffer from the same
> >disease, and I still have the occasional outbreak, but I'm trying
> >hard, and mostly getting better. I think.
> 
> It appears as if you're diagnosing svenl with the "same disease"
> that you're suffering.
> 
> Is the desease called obsessive-compulsive disorder?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_disorder

This is a common disease in debian, i would even say this may be caused to
some point by debian involvement. I never had such before i started
participating here :)

Friendly,

Sven Lutyher


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Re: Bug#355443: please don't

[Yaroslav Halchenko]

Dear martin f krafft,

Since in my understanding of English should in this context means "have
to" I was happy to close the bug by  purging the log files.

Dear DDs,

Is my interpretation of Debian policy correct and I do have to remove
log files on purge? or there is a flexibility in interpretation?

Sincerely yours,
"Lost in translation"
Yarik


On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, martin f krafft wrote:
> Please do not remove the log files. Policy says they should be
> removed, but they don't have to be. I don't think log files should
> ever be removed.
-- 
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=--   /v\  =
Keep in touch// \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com
Yaroslav Halchenko  /(   )\   ICQ#: 60653192
   Linux User^^-^^[17]




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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Duck]

Coin,

I don't know Sven enought for a comment, but this is the first time i
hear about problems with him.

Andres Salomon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Step #2 requires the support of some 15 developers.

This meaning 15 is a representative set of 972 persons (1.5%) not
randomly choosen, which is obvioulsy wrong, and ridiculously small.

What is wrong here, is not even this demand for removal with such a lack
of clear evidence (you can wait for supporters, but you should also
convince other people, not so much in touch with Sven, you are right),
but a complete failure of this procedure. Such a lightweight proposal
should never have passed the DAM filter in step 1. Moreover, having only
1*Q persons needed to open such a GRAVE process is so incredible !!!

-- 
Marc Dequènes (Duck)


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Re: Bug#355443: please don't

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Yaroslav Halchenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.16.0117 +0100]:
> Dear DDs,

Ah, sorry for all the noise, dear debian-devel.

> Is my interpretation of Debian policy correct and I do have to
> remove log files on purge? or there is a flexibility in
> interpretation?

Yaroslav,

Your interpretation is more or less correct, although the wording in
the policy is a bit fuzzy.

I do not think that that log files should ever be removed. But as
the last hour on IRC and [0] showed, at least three people disagree
with me, so I am outnumbered.

0. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/03/msg00688.html

Thus, I am closing the bug.

Sorry for the noise.

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Re: removing logfiles on purge

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Marco d'Itri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.16.0050 +0100]:
> Then they should backup them before purging the package.

Sure.

> > If you've ever administered a production machine with hundreds
> > of users, you'll treat log files as valuable data. You'll kick
> > and scream if they get removed from under your fingers.
> But when I purge a package I expect that log files will be
> deleted.

Hard to argue against that.

This issue is becoming more minor the more I think about it. The
main two problematic areas are mail and web. Removing the MTA will
not purge mail.log, and any sensible web setup will have separate
log files for virtual hosts, so it's less likely to affect people.

Sorry, but the thought did strike me at the time I wrote the
message, especially after seeing #355443 and remembering talking to
Lars precisely about this issue at FOSDEM.

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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Manoj Srivastava]

On 15 Mar 2006, Sven Luther told this:

> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 11:53:04AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> I strongly agree that Sven Luther is a disruptive element, and his
>> presence hurts the project more than it helps. I have found a
>> pattern of behaviour from him, where any discussion first focuses
>> on blame allocation, and swiftly proceeds to personal
>> recrimination, mischaracterization, and extreme polemics. Indeed,
>> it is my experience that his prolific, rude, and relentless
>> insults, misquotes, and distortions often result in delays in
>> discovering the correct technical solution to the problem being
>> investigated.
>
> This comming from you, who insulted me on irc together with jonas
> while i may have argued, but never used a and insulting word, about
> the ramdisk generation issue, i guess you have no shame.

My recollection (and logs) differ.

>> By itself this would not be enough, but the pattern of
>> bahaviour has lead to people opting not to join the kernel team,
>> myself included.
>
> You did never intent to do so, since you clearly said numerous time
> that you where frustrated with the kernel team taking over your work
> on kernel-package, and that you put self-compiled kernels at a
> higher priority than the official debian kernels.

This is a lie.  I merely would not let the official kernel
 image use case obliterate the ome user use case, and I refuse to
 create diverging code bases for these use cases. A solution that
 panders entirely to one4 use case would not be acceptable, no.

> Already people like Bastian Blank are so frustrated with you that
> they repeteadly threatened to remove all dependency on
> kernel-package from the kernel,

So you keep telling me.

manoj

-- 
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Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
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Re: Propose exim4 for debian-volatile (Was: exim4_4.50-8sarge1)

[Adeodato Simó]

* Martin Zobel-Helas [Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:53:05 +0100]:

Hi Martin,

> On Sunday, 05 Mar 2006, aba wrote:
> > The plan is to make s-p-u such a place, but until it happens, I think
> > volatile can have such packages as an exception, if the bug is severe
> > enough.

> sorry, but i disagree with you on that. For me volatile is handling
> packages with volatile data, not for handling packages the stable
> release manager denys to take into a stable release.

  I think there was a small thinko here (not that it'll change your
  mind, that's ok, so just noting it): the issue is that packages
  accepted by the SRMs are not available for users _in a location that
  is safe for them to put in their sources.list_, which s-p-u is not
  (since it can contain !accepted-by-SRM packages). So they have to wait
  until the next point release is actually released.

  Nice to hear that there are planes to make s-p-u such location,
  though.

  Cheers,

-- 
Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es
Debian Developer  adeodato at debian.org
 
  Listening to: Presuntos Implicados - Calor


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RS485 via termios

[Robbie]

Hi guys,
Below is a cut from something I pull off the arm list. 
Is there a patch of any kind to use UART to support the RS485 protocol via the 
termios structure?
Can anyone offer advice on configuration and usage?

Your help is much appreciated.
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell King - 
ARM Linux
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:04 PM
To: Andreas Schweigstill
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: AT91RM9200 + RS485


On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 02:27:21PM +0100, Andreas Schweigstill wrote:
> In the current driver version there doesn't seem to be support for 
> switching to RS485 mode. you have to either hardcode it (ugly...), 
> create an ioctl() function or extend the termios structure. Be 
> carefull that termios remains compatible to the standard.

I've been preaching to the RS485-using (and patch generating) folk that the 
handshake mode should be selected via the termios structure so that existing 
programs continue to work as expected.

However, it seems to fall on deaf ears, so mine have been deaf to the RS485 
folk's patches for mainline 8250-based support to date.

This problem desperately needs a standardised solution which can be applied to 
all drivers, rather than every driver/implementation having it's own custom 
method of enabling RS485 mode.

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Attractive platform for Debian people interested in ARM: NSLU2

[Martin Michlmayr]

While ARM is a very important platform, support for it in Debian has
faced a number of problems recently: there was no developer accessible
machine for a long time (they're two now), buildds sometimes have a
hard time keeping up, etc.  Most importantly, there are not enough
people actively involved in the ARM port.  We need more people doing
debian-installer and kernel work, and track other ARM related issues.

One reason why few people are working on ARM is probably the lack of
a cheap platform that can be used for development.  Fortunately, this
problem has now been addressed.  Over the last few months, I worked
(in collaboration of the NSLU2-Linux project) on debian-installer
support for the Linksys NSLU2, a sub $100 device with 32 MB RAM,
Ethernet (which needs a non-free driver) and two USB ports.  You can
attach a USB disk and run a full Debian system on this device.

While there have been some instructions on the web about how to get
Debian going on the NSLU2, basic support for the device is now
included in debian-installer as of beta2.  In other words, you can do
a user-friendly installation and it will just work.

Instructions can be found at http://www.cyrius.com/debian/nslu2/


Future work:

In the future, the NSLU2-Linux people and I will add more support for
other ARM based consumer devices, such as Network Attached Storage
(NAS) devices (basically a hard drive with a CPU/RAM and Ethernet,
sometimes also including wireless; in other words, a perfect platform
for Debian).

On a related note, I'm also working on getting debian-installer going
on a number of MIPS based consumer devices, such as the Netgear
WGT634U wireless router.  However, this work has not reached the
maturity of NSLU2 support yet.  Please visit
http://www.cyrius.com/debian/bcm947xx/ for a status overview and TODO
list.

Acknowledgements:

 - The NSLU2-Linux team for doing most of the upstream work (e.g.
   kernel), and for donating a NSLU2 to me.
 - The debian-installer team for creating such an excellent system
   to which new platforms can be added relatively easily.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/


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Re: ITP: moleinvasion -- Jump'n run game with Tux

[Brian May]

> "Henning" == Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Henning> Which, however, will not stop the code from dying
Henning> horribly if $LANG does not contain an underscore (see
Henning> /usr/share/locale/locale.alias), or if it contains an
Henning> underscore that comes so late that there is no room for
Henning> the LONG_TEXT_FILE string.

Henning> (It does prevent executing arbitrary code taken from the
Henning> environment variable _instead_ of dying horribly).

Not tested, other solutions also possible, but my point is developing
solutions shouldn't be hard:

--- cut ---
FILE * fd=NULL;

if(getenv("LANG"))
{
memset(lang,'\0',sizeof(lang));
strncpy(getenv("LANG"),lang,sizeof(lang)-1);
ptr=strchr(lang,"_");
if (ptr) *ptr='\0';

memset(buffer,'\0',sizeof(buffer));

snprintf(buffer,sizeof(buffer)-1,"txt/%s_%s",getenv("LANG"),LONG_TXT_FILE);
--- cut ---

-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: NEW queue backing up again -- ftpmasters, any explanation or comment?

[Brian May]

> "Simon" == Simon Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Simon> The main reason for the NEW queue is the US export
Simon> legislation. If it were legal to make packages immediately
Simon> downloadable, it would be done.

In which case why do new packages with known source code end up in the
NEW queue?

The source code has already been examined for the US export
legislation.

e.g. if soname changes on shared library, it requires the package be
renamed which appears as a new package.

Could be an issue if such an upload contained security fixes.
-- 
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Samuel Mimram]

Hi,

Andres Salomon wrote:

On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 10:59:46AM -0500, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

Thanks for yours and Ralf's responses.  To be honest, I wasn't expecting
anyone to actually say that they *enjoyed* working w/ Sven.  This is making
me seriously reconsider my request; obviously, I don't want to penalize
teams that want Sven around.  My intent really is to improve the project,
not to hurt Sven (or any other teams).

Does the rest of the ocaml team feel this way as well?


I also did *enjoy* working with Sven.

I started as a maintainer by packaging ocaml programs and the help of 
the whole ocaml-maint team (including Sven) was very valuable. He often 
did answer my questions and helped me to learn packaging and the 
specificities of caml packages. He was also willing to let others help 
(i.e. wasn't the never-touch-my-package type). Interacting with him 
always been nice and fruitful. As far as the ocaml-related packaging is 
concerned, I really feel that his work has always been quite productive.


I tend to try to spare my time and I only read lists like debian-devel 
from time to time, so I'm not judging here the whole interaction of Sven 
with the Debian project.



Please mail me privately, no sense in cluttering up the lists any more.


Sorry for not doing this but this mail made me discover you expulsion 
thing and I wanted to give my public support to Sven at least once.


Cheers,

Samuel.


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Otavio Salvador]

martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> also sprach Gustavo Franco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]:
>> It seems that the project is splitting in two groups basically:
>> The people that wants to work together and release Etch, and the
>> people that with a reason or not wants to see it delayed. The
>> minute after the release team announces that we're going to delay
>> our next release, we will stop with these weird threads and keep
>> arguing that we're all volunteers and are doing our best. oh, the
>> humanity!
>> 
>> I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
>> Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
>> about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some
>> time considering not my words, but just Etch.
>
> Thank you!

Thank you! That's what we all are (should) be here to do.

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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, Marc Dequènes wrote:
> This meaning 15 is a representative set of 972 persons (1.5%) not
> randomly choosen, which is obvioulsy wrong, and ridiculously small.
> 
> What is wrong here, is not even this demand for removal with such a lack
> of clear evidence (you can wait for supporters, but you should also
> convince other people, not so much in touch with Sven, you are right),
> but a complete failure of this procedure. Such a lightweight proposal
> should never have passed the DAM filter in step 1. Moreover, having only
> 1*Q persons needed to open such a GRAVE process is so incredible !!!

Yeah, it looks like that at first glance, doesn't it?  I got that impression
that Q was nearly not enough people at first as well, but some research and
thinking changed my mind.

Please proceed to
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html and read
the entire expulsion procedure guide again.  Notice how extremely easy it is
for the process to not result on an expulsion even if Q is met.  Also take
notice that the person being "considered for expulsion" can defend himself,
and how a vote is called if enough people on the NM-committee decides that
the expulsion should not happen.

Finally, proceed to vote.d.o and look at the number of developers interested
enough in issues that are far more likely to directly affect them than
expelling someone most of them did not even have close contact with (such is
the nature of a big project like Debian).  The number of unique voters is
surprisingly low.  Factor in the disgusting nature of seconding a request
for someone to be expelled (even if you do think that there is no other
way).

IMO, meeting Q to send a DD packing is not going to be easy at all.

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Attractive platform for Debian people interested in ARM: NSLU2

[Graham Wilson]

On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 01:01:46AM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> One reason why few people are working on ARM is probably the lack of
> a cheap platform that can be used for development.  Fortunately, this
> problem has now been addressed.  Over the last few months, I worked
> (in collaboration of the NSLU2-Linux project) on debian-installer
> support for the Linksys NSLU2, a sub $100 device with 32 MB RAM,
> Ethernet (which needs a non-free driver) and two USB ports.  You can
> attach a USB disk and run a full Debian system on this device.

Just to be clear, the NSLU2 is a big endian ARM machine, right? Isn't
Debian's current ARM port little endian?

(Not that people shouldn't play with the NSLU2 and try to get Debian
better supported on it; it's a great little device.)

-- 
gram


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Re: Attractive platform for Debian people interested in ARM: NSLU2

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Graham Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-03-15 19:27]:
> Just to be clear, the NSLU2 is a big endian ARM machine, right?
> Isn't Debian's current ARM port little endian?

It can run both in little and big endian.  The images currently
provided are little-endian, i.e. what the official ARM port uses.

In the future, I'll probably also provide big-endian images but
not all required packages have been compiled in the unofficial
armeb.debian.net yet.
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/


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Re: Attractive platform for Debian people interested in ARM: NSLU2

[Matthew R. Dempsky]

On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 01:01:24AM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> On a related note, I'm also working on getting debian-installer going
> on a number of MIPS based consumer devices, such as the Netgear
> WGT634U wireless router.  However, this work has not reached the
> maturity of NSLU2 support yet.  Please visit
> http://www.cyrius.com/debian/bcm947xx/ for a status overview and TODO
> list.

I have a spare WGT634U that is not currently playing any integral role 
in my home network, but I would certainly be interested in running 
Debian on it.  Is there any mailing list where work on this is being 
centralized?  I'd love to lend a helping hand.

Also, I have to second how nice a device the NSLU2 is for running Linux.  
(Although I only have experience with using OpenSlug on it, not Debian.)


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Re: Attractive platform for Debian people interested in ARM: NSLU2

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Matthew R. Dempsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-03-15 20:35]:
> I have a spare WGT634U that is not currently playing any integral
> role in my home network, but I would certainly be interested in
> running Debian on it.

I made a tar ball and kernel available for it yesterday:
http://www.cyrius.com/debian/bcm947xx/wgt634u/

> Is there any mailing list where work on this is being centralized?

Not at the moment, no.  So far, it has just been me, but Aurelien
Jarno recently got one as well and we've been talking on IRC.  We
should probably use the debian-mips list for general discussions (or
debian-boot, depending on the nature of the discussion).

> I'd love to lend a helping hand.

Great!  I can give you details what needs to be done.  Please contact
me off-list and tell me what kind of skills you have, then I can
recommend how you can help out.
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/


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Balancing the noise between -devel and -private?

[Charles Plessy]

Dear developpers,

I have no idea of what is the traffic on debian-private, nor on the
content of the messages there. But, for the sake of the signal/noise
ratio on debian-devel, do you think that you could move most of the
ad-hominem stuff on such a list? Also, in most social groups in most
cultures, from the company to the rock band or the football club,
critisism against insiders are not done in front of outsiders. The
public trials are usually the hallmark of terror systems.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Wako, Saitama, Japan


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Re: timezone data packaged separately and in volatile?

[Denis Barbier]

On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 03:22:50PM +0100, Aurelien Jarno wrote:
> Lionel Elie Mamane a écrit :
> > - glibc maintainers, would you approve of such an update to a point
> >   release of sarge?
> 
> I am *one* of the glibc maintainer, and I agree in principle with such a 
> change, though I haven't look very deeply at your patch (will do that 
> later).
> 
> I hope other glibc maintainers will give their opinion there.

Ditto, but this should be done for all sarge stable releases, which is a
lot of work.  IMO splitting timezone data into a seperate package in
the next sarge release would help future releases, if this is allowed by
our stable RMs.

Denis


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Re: removal of svenl from the project

[Andres Salomon]

On Thu, 2006-03-16 at 00:59 +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 02:45:42PM -0500, Andres Salomon wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 07:20:20PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> > > also sprach Gustavo Franco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006.03.15.1512 +0100]:
> > [...]
> > > > 
> > > > I'm asking myself what's behind all that ? Ubuntu ? Probably no.
> > > > Subconcious fear to delivery in time ? Probably yes. Stop thinking
> > > > about who you're going to ask to be expelled next and spend some
> > > > time considering not my words, but just Etch.
> > > 
> > > Thank you!
> > > 
> > 
> > If I didn't care about etch, I could just as easily sit back and let Sven
> > do his thing (as I have been doing for the past few months); however, I
> 
> Are you implying that it was because of me that you have taken a backseat
> recently ? I remember somethign else, about you being frustrated with DAM and

No, I am implying that I have no desire to resume working with the team
with you on it, now that the security details are being worked out.

> the security team, and deciding to work more with the ubuntu guys at that
> time. I was really sad to see this happen, as your input was very valuable to
> the debian kernel team, and i told you so back then.


I fail to see how ubuntu factors into this conversation at all.  Check
the changelogs; I haven't contributed anything to an ubuntu kernel since
last May or so.  I was evaluating my options wrt to what distribution to
run on servers (since at the time I did not feel comfortable running a
sarge kernel on them), and ubuntu is one of them.


> 
> > would like to see the release happen.  Given the time and resources that
> > Sven's arguments consume, I am convinced that expelling him will make things
> > run a lot smoother.
> 
> maybe, but then you forget all the work i did to get 2.6.14 out, and i do
> currently not believe that we would have achieved that much if i had not
> strongly worked for it. I had to endure flames and insults from maks, manoj
> and jonas over the ramdisk-generator issue, an issue all where talking about
> since weeks and months, but nobody decided to act. Notice that already then
> there was a rather odious flamewar, and it is instead disgusting to have to go
> through such to get people to not dismiss you out of the hand because it is
> not like they have been doing since since forever.

I still think the whole ramdisk generator thing is silly, but that's not
really on-topic, and we've had this discussion before.  I wasn't
involved in the flamewar, and I don't care to be; I suspect your posts
made up a large portion of the thread, however (just like in this
thread).


> 
> As a result, we solved the ramdisk generator dilemna to everybody's
> satisfaction, we managed to do same-day releases, which nobody thought
> possible, and was never heard off in debian (who was known for largely
> out-dated kernels, and needing a whole month to upgrade the d-i kernel).
> 
> > For starters, I/we need to figure out a sane way to deal w/ 3rd party kernel
> > modules.  I'm not sure the status of this, since Sven was adamant about this
> > happening his way; I'm not even willing to even touch the issue while he's
> 
> I notice though that back then my way, was also the way you advocated against
> manoj. Strange no, the way memory work.
> 

I recall initially discussing options w/ you and dannf about how to do
it.  I don't remember Manoj factoring into the discussion at all. 

[...]
> 
> I leave this all to you, i hope you are up to the responsability, and will not
> participate again in the kernel team until i am asked to.
> 

Why would this be all on me?  It's a team effort; I would hope that I
would be able to work on those issues w/ fellow kernel team members that
are interested in actually getting them solved (and not wasting time
arguing back and forth, refusing to compromise).



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Mediation not Politics (Re: removal of svenl from the project)

[C Shore]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Abstract

"Please can't we all just get along?"  Ok, I'm not quite that naive, but
I would like to see (or proof of previous attempts at) conciliation
before such a highly political approach as a formal expulsion request to
a personnel issue.

Further comments follow,

Andres Salomon wrote:
> I am going through the expulsion process to have Sven Luther removed
> from the project.  The process is outlined here:
> ,
> and I have already completed step 1.

IANADDY but I have followed some of the mailing lists for a while and
this is ludicrous.

> Sven's behavior has always been combative (and some might argue
> hostile), but this is beyond what is acceptable.  He threatens bodily

Sven is certainly not quiet, however from what I have seen of type of
response his suggestions and posts get, he is justifiably frustrated.  I
am personally surprised he hasn't gotten disgusted with the project and
left, or greatly reduced participation, of his own volition, as others,
most recently 'Joey', have done.  Perhaps it is for the same reason I
will be helping with the debtags tagging (regardless of whether or not
that can lead to being a dd), namely believing in the ideals of the
Debian Project.

I think he feels personally attacked by rejections of his ideas, but I
haven't seen anything other than initial knee jerk rejections of his
ideas either, even ones that later are accepted.  He also does something
that I wouldn't, which is to be a highly active participant in the
public forums.  Personally I prefer to spend time working on projects,
and leave mailing lists and such as tertiary or lower in importance,
however a preference is all that is, not The Way Things Should Be(tm).

I think mediation by a neutral third party would be useful here, and
would be far more constructive than attempting to expel Sven.  With the
exception of the quote Andres posted, I haven't seen sven be abusive
(emotional, yes, abusive, no) and I've seen a lot that of responses and
behaviour on the parts of developers like joeyh that would tend to piss
me off too.  (The difference is that I'd probably just say 'the h*ll
with you', and work where I was appreciated).

I don't think Sven is anywhere near perfect, but I haven't seen any
attempt at a peaceable solution either.  Perhaps my history doesn't go
far enough back.

If Sven was willing to accept the DPL as a mediator, would those who are
complaining about him also do so?  And, what, besides disliking his
communication style, are the beefs with Sven?  And if that is the
primary beef, what would 'make it better' without eliminating his
ability to argue for his ideas (which seem to get dismissed out of hand,
but to this outsider seem to make sense)?  Has there been any attempt to
work with Sven on his communication style, or, as seems to me, has it
been primarily hostility on the other side as well?

"Please can't we all just get along?"  Ok, I'm not quite that naive, but
I would like to see (or proof of previous attempts at) conciliation
before such a highly political approach as a formal expulsion request to
a personnel issue.

Cheers,

Daniel
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Re: Request of expulsion of Zeke the Cat from the Debian Project

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Please, people, the mere fact that we have an expulsion procedure should
> *not* mean that we have to invoke it twice in a few weeks.

Hear, hear!

-- 
Henning Makholm  "Nett hier.
 Aber waren Sie schon mal in Baden-Württemberg?"


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Re: NEW queue backing up again -- ftpmasters, any explanation or comment?

[Russ Allbery]

Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> "Simon" == Simon Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Simon> The main reason for the NEW queue is the US export
> Simon> legislation. If it were legal to make packages immediately
> Simon> downloadable, it would be done.

> In which case why do new packages with known source code end up in the
> NEW queue?

I'm dubious that's really the main reason for the NEW queue.  Looking at
, the ftpmasters check a lot
more than that.  In addition, they also verify licensing issues.  I
consider that check to be an integral part of the Debian QA process and
wouldn't want to do without it.

US export legislation is the reason why we don't make things in NEW
publically available until after they've been processed, but that's a
different issue.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   


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Re: Balancing the noise between -devel and -private?

[Miles Bader]

Charles Plessy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Also, in most social groups in most cultures, from the company to the
> rock band or the football club, critisism against insiders are not
> done in front of outsiders.

Ok, well that's often true in companies, but they're usually fucked up
little dictatorships anyway.

Despite all the flamewars, most people in Debian are not gratuitously
cruel, and you have to really piss people off to get the treatment
Sven's getting.

-Miles
-- 
.Numeric stability is probably not all that important when you're guessing.


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mssg to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Lalacka]

I tried to get in my accout veronica21791, but i had a problem.An error had happened and they told me to go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]. And now I hope my problem will get fixed.
 Thankyou , Sincerely
   VeronicaPeralta

Re: removing logfiles on purge

[sean finney]

yo martin,

i don't have enough time to find it, but like a couple years (or
more?) ago there was a very, very long thread about logfile removal.

the "should logfiles be removed on purge" question can actually be
deconstructed into smaller questions:

- should /var/log/foo/foo.log be removed on purge?
- should (logrotated) /var/log/foo/foo.log.[0-9]*.gz be removed on purge?
- should /var/log/foo be removed recursively on purge?

i don't remember what the result of the thread was, sorry :(


sean


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Re: Attractive platform for Debian people interested in ARM: NSLU2

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 01:01:46AM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> One reason why few people are working on ARM is probably the lack of
> a cheap platform that can be used for development.  Fortunately, this
> problem has now been addressed.  Over the last few months, I worked
> (in collaboration of the NSLU2-Linux project) on debian-installer
> support for the Linksys NSLU2, a sub $100 device with 32 MB RAM,
> Ethernet (which needs a non-free driver) and two USB ports.  You can
> attach a USB disk and run a full Debian system on this device.

Neat work! Thanks Martin and all.

Is it possible to use root-on-NFS rather than a USB disk?
I expect this would mean a suitable kernel image flashed into the NSLU2,
and a pre-prepared root tarball to be extracted on the host.

The cheapest disk at my local computer store is the same price as
the NSLU2 itself. And I don't really need 100Gb for it.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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