Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 01 iul 14, 15:57:41, Neil Williams wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 18:26:53 +0400
> vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
> > 
> > I think you can just put
> > 
> > Package: systemd
> > Pin: origin ""
> > Pin-Priority: -1
> 
> If what you actually intend is to retain sysvinit-core, it would need 
> to be systemd-sysv

Most probably not, because systemd-sysv Depends: systemd.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: virtual machine from USB stick (virt-manager & qemu/kvm)

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Ma, 01 iul 14, 09:34:58, Eugene Zhukov wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I know this question probably doesn't belong to this list, and I tried
> debian-user@ first, but didn't get a single response.
> I'm trying to create a VM with Windows 7. Is there a way to do that
> from USB stick? It is a ~10GB corporate Windows package.

In the meantime you have received answers, so you should probably 
follow-up on them.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Bug#753367: marked as done (general: usb drives automatically mount but user permission is ro)

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Your message dated Wed, 2 Jul 2014 09:27:57 +0300
with message-id <20140702062757.GB1546@sid.nuvreauspam>
and subject line Re: Bug#753367: general: usb drives automatically mount but 
user permission is ro
has caused the Debian Bug report #753367,
regarding general: usb drives automatically mount but user permission is ro
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
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--- Begin Message ---
Package: general
Severity: normal

Dear Maintainer,

*** Reporter, please consider answering these questions, where appropriate ***

   * What led up to the situation?
   * What exactly did you do (or not do) that was effective (or
 ineffective)?
   * What was the outcome of this action?
   * What outcome did you expect instead?

*** End of the template - remove these template lines ***



-- System Information:
Debian Release: jessie/sid
  APT prefers testing-updates
  APT policy: (500, 'testing-updates'), (500, 'testing')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)
Foreign Architectures: i386

Kernel: Linux 3.14-1-amd64 (SMP w/8 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=en_US.utf8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Lu, 30 iun 14, 18:15:36, phasegen wrote:
> Package: general
> Severity: normal
> 
> Dear Maintainer,
> 
> *** Reporter, please consider answering these questions, where appropriate ***
> 
>* What led up to the situation?
>* What exactly did you do (or not do) that was effective (or
>  ineffective)?
>* What was the outcome of this action?
>* What outcome did you expect instead?
> 
> *** End of the template - remove these template lines ***

Unfortunately there is no information to even try finding the problem. I 
would suggest you contact one of Debian's support channels and file a 
new bug with more information.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: SV: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 30 iun 14, 01:56:20, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> > 
> > You're not seriously suggesting dpkg would "sneak" a package on your 
> > system behind your back, do you?
> 
> I believe he's only suggesting that having a package installed with a
> Conflict: is harder to break (even by mistake) than just some apt
> preferences, and that it's better to lock things at the level of dpkg
> than at the level of apt, aptitude, deslect, synaptic or whatever. I by
> the way agree.

Others in this thread have pointed out why this is not true (for one you 
have to put the package on hold), but this has become off-topic for 
-devel, -user would be more appropriate.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: How to restart New Member Process?

[Tobias Frost]

On 1. Juli 2014 09:41:17 MESZ, Kiwamu Okabe  wrote:
>Hi developers,
>
>How to restart New Member Process?
>
>I have had New Member Process in the past.
>But It's canceled, because I had not a good response to it.
>
>https://nm.debian.org/public/process/13039
>
>Now, I would like to dput packages for ATS2 language.
>
>http://www.ats-lang.org/
>https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=746026
>
>Best regards,
>-- 
>Kiwamu Okabe at METASEPI DESIGN
>
>
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Hi Okabe, 

Dont know exactly, but I would contact frontdesk and ASK them to reset the 
status/ for the procedure.

-- 
tobi

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Russ Allbery]

Nikolaus Rath  writes:
> Steve Langasek  writes:

>>> Also, post-upgrade-pre-reboot systems has had issues since forever,

>> No.  There have been very few instances in which the system was left in
>> an unusable state after a dist-upgrade, even for desktops.

> On desktops, upgrades of iceweasel and icedove regularly break
> currently running instances of these programs in subtle ways
> (e.g. download status window no longer opens).

And I believe this whole thread started with a discussion of the power
button no longer working.  I have seen that sort of behavior off and on
for years after dist-upgrade.  Certain types of upgrades have a tendency
to interfere with power management until the system has been rebooted.

If folks are tracking down those bugs and want to fix them, that's great,
but I've never bothered to file that bug because it struck me as so
unimportant that it wasn't worth my time to write up a bug report.  I
expect to have to reboot the system cleanly after a variety of types of
upgrades (kernel upgrades, for example, obviously); a few more isn't
something I even notice.

-- 
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Russ Allbery]

Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez  writes:

> But I think that many sysadmins that are going to upgrade their servers
> from wheezy to jessie care about this.

Indeed.  I care very much about ensuring that systemd is installed on my
servers, as I think the benefits for servers are at least as substantial
than the benefits for desktops.

> I bet that not few of them would want to stick with sysvinit for jessie
> at least.

I would be stunned.  And I've talked about this with a fair number of
large-site systems administrators.

sysvinit is very, very old, and it shows.  systemd just solves a whole ton
of important problems that are quite interesting to servers.

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Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Vincent Cheng]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Wookey  wrote:
> +++ Stefano Zacchiroli [2014-06-30 11:43 +0200]:
>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:27:49AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>> > On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:42:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
>> > > ]] Thomas Goirand
>> > > > +1 for keeping the name which is funny
>>
>> What's funny about an OS stating publicly that a specific piece of Free
>> software---shipped and installed by default by that very same OS---"must
>> die"?
>
> Every package name in debian is not a 'statement of the OS' as a
> whole. Each one is just a package name, most of which are vaguely
> descriptive, some are punny, many rather cryptic. None that I can
> think of are a 'statement'.
>
> The systemd people won the argument. Giving those who prefer not to
> use it (yet) a slightly childish package to install is a small
> consolation for them and really shouldn't be taken very seriously. I'm
> afraid the name amused me - and I assume I'm not the only one.
>
> But OK. I get it - this is still too contentious to have any room for
> this sort of foolishness and if it's to exist at all it'll have to be
> called something boring. That's a little sad, but we'll all
> survive. This isn't supposed to be a big deal, just a small
> convenience.

For the sake of "fun", let's go ahead and upload packages with
provocative names. That's sure to foster goodwill between the pro- and
anti-systemd camps within Debian, right?

Sorry to be a spoilsport here, but I'll take "boring" any day of the
week if the potential alternative is another heated discussion that'll
eventually devolve into mudslinging or general unpleasantness.

Regards,
Vincent


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Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Clint Adams]

On Wed, Jul 02, 2014 at 01:53:06AM +0100, Wookey wrote:
> But OK. I get it - this is still too contentious to have any room for
> this sort of foolishness and if it's to exist at all it'll have to be
> called something boring. That's a little sad, but we'll all
> survive. This isn't supposed to be a big deal, just a small
> convenience. 

If you're going for non-boring entertainment value, have you
considered i-am-a-kneejerk-idiot-who-neither-knows-how-to-
competently-prevent-packages-from-being-installed-on-my-
system-nor-understands-what-any-of-said-packages-actually-do?

That seems like a better idea.


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Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Wookey]

+++ Stefano Zacchiroli [2014-06-30 11:43 +0200]:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:27:49AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:42:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> > > ]] Thomas Goirand
> > > > +1 for keeping the name which is funny
> 
> What's funny about an OS stating publicly that a specific piece of Free
> software---shipped and installed by default by that very same OS---"must
> die"?

Every package name in debian is not a 'statement of the OS' as a
whole. Each one is just a package name, most of which are vaguely
descriptive, some are punny, many rather cryptic. None that I can
think of are a 'statement'.

The systemd people won the argument. Giving those who prefer not to
use it (yet) a slightly childish package to install is a small
consolation for them and really shouldn't be taken very seriously. I'm
afraid the name amused me - and I assume I'm not the only one.

But OK. I get it - this is still too contentious to have any room for
this sort of foolishness and if it's to exist at all it'll have to be
called something boring. That's a little sad, but we'll all
survive. This isn't supposed to be a big deal, just a small
convenience. 

Wookey
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Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Paul R. Tagliamonte]

+1 :)
On Jul 1, 2014 6:39 PM, "Norbert Preining"  wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Jul 2014, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> > I don't think so. I think it encourages to be more easy going, and have
> > fun, but never mind. Let's keep Debian boring^W^Wportland weird. :)
>
> +1
>
> Fun is missing, humour even more.
>
> Norbert
>
> 
> PREINING, Norbert   http://www.preining.info
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> 
>
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>

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Ben Finney]

Svante Signell  writes:

> What about systemd-nogo or nogo-systemd, alternately just no-systemd?

I have a ‘no-mono’ package (not hosted anywhere; I welcome contact from
anyone who wants to upload it).

I would expect ‘prevent-…’ or ‘no-…’ as the name of such packages.

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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Nikolaus Rath]

Steve Langasek  writes:
>> Also, post-upgrade-pre-reboot systems has had issues since forever,
>
> No.  There have been very few instances in which the system was left in an
> unusable state after a dist-upgrade, even for desktops.

On desktops, upgrades of iceweasel and icedove regularly break
currently running instances of these programs in subtle ways
(e.g. download status window no longer opens).


Best,
-Nikolaus

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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Wookey]

+++ Lars Wirzenius [2014-07-01 18:34 +0100]:
> On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 04:23:01PM +0100, Wookey wrote:
> > You get a choice of 'prevent-systemd' which stops it running as init
> > but allows the -shim and libpam packages so that logind and the like
> > will work. Or 'systemd-must-die' which conflicts with everything
> > systemdish.
> 
> Wookey,
> 
> Please rename the systemd-must-die package to something neutral. Thank
> you.

OK. I did rename the source package, but I liked the binary and thought
anyone else who actually wanted this would enjoy it too, so it seemed
appropriate despite not being entirely 'PC'. 

I think some people are failing to see the humour in this name
(and Dawkins knows we could use some humour round this subject), but I
guess if it's not going to be allowed then it's not going to be
allowed.

Wookey
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Re: systemd-shim [Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?]

[Michael Biebl]

Am 02.07.2014 00:09, schrieb Tshepang Lekhonkhobe:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Tollef Fog Heen  wrote:

>> Just as a heads-up: We're planning on making 208 hit unstable once 204-9
>> is in testing, and then follow up with newer versions once we deem they
>> are ready.
> 
> Do you mean 204-14?

You are correct, Tollef meant the current version in unstable, which is
204-14.

Michael

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Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Norbert Preining]

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> I don't think so. I think it encourages to be more easy going, and have
> fun, but never mind. Let's keep Debian boring^W^Wportland weird. :)

+1

Fun is missing, humour even more.

Norbert


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Re: systemd-shim [Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?]

[Tshepang Lekhonkhobe]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Tollef Fog Heen  wrote:
> ]] Michael Biebl
>
>> Am 01.07.2014 19:53, schrieb Steve Langasek:
>> > new init.  But the systemd maintainers are anxious to update to a newer
>> > version in unstable, and while there are plans in Ubuntu to make
>> > systemd-shim support the interfaces needed for newer logind, this isn't
>> > ready yet.
>>
>> This issue has been known since December 2013 and was also discussed
>> during the ctte debate.
>>
>> Tollef back then promised to hold back any updates until May 2014.
>> We are way past that date.
>
> Just as a heads-up: We're planning on making 208 hit unstable once 204-9
> is in testing, and then follow up with newer versions once we deem they
> are ready.
>
> Cc-ed to systemd-shim@packages so those maintainers are explicitly
> aware.


Do you mean 204-14?


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2014-07-01, Steve Langasek  wrote:
>   https://bugs.debian.org/src:systemd-shim
>
> Show me a bug report, not FUD.

I'd rather point to the likely-faulty code.

it is likely in or around 
src:kde-workspace/powerdevil/daemon/backends/upower/powerdevilupowerbackend.cpp 
when checking for suspend capabilities with upower from experimental. 

Something in there doesn't properly detect that systemd-shim + logind actually 
can 
let you suspend the machine (and upower 0.99 has delegated it to
logind).

>> Also, post-upgrade-pre-reboot systems has had issues since forever,
>
> No.  There have been very few instances in which the system was left in an
> unusable state after a dist-upgrade, even for desktops.

Try do a update of your kde-plasma-desktop across where the internal
on-disk data cache changes (at least every y in x.y.z, and sometimes in
.z releases). The web browser stops working, the email application stops
working, anything that uses the on-disk caches for looking up their
plugins ceases to work.

This is how it has been as long as I've been around.


>> and I think even the upgrade notes recommends to not dist-upgrade from
>> within X.
>
> This was written at a time when X itself was considered flaky enough that it
> posed a risk to the user's ability to complete the upgrade.  After years of

|4.1.5. Prepare a safe environment for the upgrade
|
|The distribution upgrade should be done either locally from a textmode
|virtual console (or a directly connected serial terminal), or remotely
|via an ssh link.

> Unless we bring one back by letting systemd + desktop environments screw us
> over anew.

Here is nothing new.

/Sune


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2014-07-01 at 22:09 +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> On 13624 March 1977, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> 
> >> You get a choice of 'prevent-systemd' which stops it running as init
> >> but allows the -shim and libpam packages so that logind and the like
> >> will work. Or 'systemd-must-die' which conflicts with everything
> >> systemdish.
> > Please rename the systemd-must-die package to something neutral. Thank
> > you.
> 
> A package with this name wont ever appear in the archive, and I just
> rejected it.

What about systemd-nogo or nogo-systemd, alternately just no-systemd?



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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 07:47:36PM +, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> On 2014-07-01, Steve Langasek  wrote:
> > The question is which of these is a worse outcome for the jessie release.  I
> > come down firmly on the side that breaking desktops on upgrade is a worse
> > outcome than being behind on the latest and greatest user session interface=
> > s.

> We already have broken desktops-on-upgrade with current systemd-shim in
> the archive. And it is even broken after reboot.

  https://bugs.debian.org/src:systemd-shim

Show me a bug report, not FUD.

> It might be bugs in the desktop related packages, but it is also a very
> low priority one.

The bugs are almost certainly not specific to systemd-shim.  It'd be just
peachy if the desktop maintainers would stop blaming systemd-shim for all
their bugs without testing.

> Also, post-upgrade-pre-reboot systems has had issues since forever,

No.  There have been very few instances in which the system was left in an
unusable state after a dist-upgrade, even for desktops.

Stop making excuses for delivering a poor upgrade experience to our users.

> and I think even the upgrade notes recommends to not dist-upgrade from
> within X.

This was written at a time when X itself was considered flaky enough that it
posed a risk to the user's ability to complete the upgrade.  After years of
improvements to X, careful rewrites of display managers to not restart
sessions on upgrade, and fixes to PAM + screensavers to ensure users are not
locked out of their desktop mid-upgrade, there is no longer a good reason
for such a warning.

Unless we bring one back by letting systemd + desktop environments screw us
over anew.

> I know where I would put the resources I can allocate.

Into mailing list threads telling us how we shouldn't expect smooth upgrades
from Debian?

This is a race to the bottom.

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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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Bug#753433: ITP: node-lastfm -- Read and write to Last.fm

[Andrew Kelley]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Andrew Kelley 
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name: node-lastfm
  Version : 0.9.0
  Upstream Author : James Scott 
* URL : https://github.com/jammus/lastfm-node
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: JavaScript
  Description : Read and write to Last.fm - Node.js module

 lastfm is a Node.js module which provides API to read and write to users'
 recent plays on Last.fm.
 .
 Node.js is an event-based server-side JavaScript engine.

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 13624 March 1977, Lars Wirzenius wrote:

>> You get a choice of 'prevent-systemd' which stops it running as init
>> but allows the -shim and libpam packages so that logind and the like
>> will work. Or 'systemd-must-die' which conflicts with everything
>> systemdish.
> Please rename the systemd-must-die package to something neutral. Thank
> you.

A package with this name wont ever appear in the archive, and I just
rejected it.

-- 
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I’ve figured out an alternative to giving up my beer. Basically, we
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Re: systemd-shim [Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?]

[Tollef Fog Heen]

]] Michael Biebl 

> Am 01.07.2014 19:53, schrieb Steve Langasek:
> > new init.  But the systemd maintainers are anxious to update to a newer
> > version in unstable, and while there are plans in Ubuntu to make
> > systemd-shim support the interfaces needed for newer logind, this isn't
> > ready yet.
> 
> This issue has been known since December 2013 and was also discussed
> during the ctte debate.
> 
> Tollef back then promised to hold back any updates until May 2014.
> We are way past that date.

Just as a heads-up: We're planning on making 208 hit unstable once 204-9
is in testing, and then follow up with newer versions once we deem they
are ready.

Cc-ed to systemd-shim@packages so those maintainers are explicitly
aware.

Cheers,
-- 
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

> Juliusz, can you please paste your apt logs showing what pulled systemd
> in on the system?

Sent by private mail.  If anyone else wants a copy, please drop me a note.

-- Juliusz


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2014-07-01, Steve Langasek  wrote:
> The question is which of these is a worse outcome for the jessie release.  I
> come down firmly on the side that breaking desktops on upgrade is a worse
> outcome than being behind on the latest and greatest user session interface=
> s.

We already have broken desktops-on-upgrade with current systemd-shim in
the archive. And it is even broken after reboot.
It might be bugs in the desktop related packages, but it is also a very
low priority one.

Also, post-upgrade-pre-reboot systems has had issues since forever, and
I think even the upgrade notes recommends to not dist-upgrade from
within X.

So, where do we want to put our resources?
Improving the actual experience once fully upgraded and rebooted? Or
ensure a better experience when in the middle of the upgrade and not yet
rebooted?

I know where I would put the resources I can allocate.

/Sune


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 08:57:37PM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Am 01.07.2014 20:21, schrieb Ondřej Surý:
> > On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 20:18, Ondřej Surý wrote:
> >> Michael,

> >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 18:51, Michael Biebl wrote:
>  Install systemd-sysv for systemd-shim.
>  The libpam-systemd package in 204-9 ensures that either of the two is
>  installed.

> >>> The behaviour of acpi-support-base is correct, there shouldn't be any
> >>> bug filed against it.

> >> please don't get me wrong, this is not an attack on systemd.

> >> There has to be a bug somewhere, if the power button can stop working
> >> in partial upgrades. Maybe the dependencies need to be tighten or
> >> conflict added or it just needs d/NEWS with explanation?

> > Ah, Steve has just posted an excellent explanation of the situation...

> As I mentioned, the bug reporter didn't have systemd-sysv or
> systemd-shim installed.

> In 204-9 we tightend the dependencies of libpam-systemd to depend on
> systemd-sysv | systemd-shim.

> That's the reason why this bug is marked as fixed in 204-9 and I told
> him to install systemd-shim manually.

Ok, thanks for this clarification.  I didn't realize this dependency had not
yet made it into testing.

FWIW, from reading the bug log, it was not clear to me that you were taking
responsibility for this bug and stating that it had been fixed in systemd
204-9.  In fact, I was completely puzzled that the versioned bug closure.
I would suggest that a little more verbosity here might have spared us all a
bit of angst.

-- 
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 21:34, schrieb Michael Biebl:
> Indeed, I take the blame for my verbosity here.

Or non-verbosity, if you so wish.

I do have to add that the tone of the bug report didn't really inspire
me to write paragraphs of explanations.

You know, I'm also just a human.

-- 
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 21:33, schrieb Steve Langasek:

> Ok, thanks for this clarification.  I didn't realize this dependency had not
> yet made it into testing.
> 
> FWIW, from reading the bug log, it was not clear to me that you were taking
> responsibility for this bug and stating that it had been fixed in systemd
> 204-9.  In fact, I was completely puzzled that the versioned bug closure.
> I would suggest that a little more verbosity here might have spared us all a
> bit of angst.

Indeed, I take the blame for my verbosity here.



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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 21:06, schrieb Eric Valette:
>> Which bug report is that?
> 
> 
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=748651

Ok, thanks for sharing.

As for the issue you encountered on your NAS using RAID10: Please do
file a bug report and we will follow up there

Michael


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Steve Langasek]

Hi Michael,

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 05:37:55PM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Am 01.07.2014 17:20, schrieb Thomas Weber:
> > Or, taking a different perspective: now that the issue is known, what is
> > done to prevent another user from hitting the very same issue in the
> > future?

> Install systemd-sysv for systemd-shim.
> The libpam-systemd package in 204-9 ensures that either of the two is
> installed.

Ok, but assuming that is the fix (install systemd-sysv or systemd-shim), how
did bug #7533357 happen?  Notwithstanding Juliusz's desire to not have
systemd installed (which I don't expect us to address), if both of those
packages were missing from the system, then something is buggy.  Juliusz,
can you please paste your apt logs showing what pulled systemd in on the
system?

If something is depending on systemd directly without either systemd-sysv or
systemd-shim, that something is buggy.

If systemd-sysv *was* installed and logind wasn't working, this probably
points to the bug with logind being broken before reboot to systemd.

However, acpi-support-base also needs to make sure that logind is functional
before delegating control of the power button to it.  And for that, I see
that acpi-support 0.141-4 introduced a change in unstable *yesterday* to
deal with exactly this problem: instead of only checking for a running
logind, acpi-support-base now checks the systemd dbus interface to verify
that logind is running and usable.  So it's possible that Juliusz's issue is
a duplicate of bug #752781.

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 07:19:26PM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Am 01.07.2014 18:53, schrieb Juliusz Chroboczek:
> > Michael closed it straight away,
> > without investigating the issue.

> Oh, I did. That's why I told you to install systemd-shim.

It should not be the user's responsibility to install this package manually
to get back to a working system.

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 06:51:22PM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> > Install systemd-sysv for systemd-shim.
> > The libpam-systemd package in 204-9 ensures that either of the two is
> > installed.

> The behaviour of acpi-support-base is correct, there shouldn't be any
> bug filed against it.

Well, I think the behavior of acpi-support-base is *now* correct in
unstable, in response to bug #752781.  I don't think it's correct in
testing.

-- 
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systemd-shim [Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?]

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 19:53, schrieb Steve Langasek:
> new init.  But the systemd maintainers are anxious to update to a newer
> version in unstable, and while there are plans in Ubuntu to make
> systemd-shim support the interfaces needed for newer logind, this isn't
> ready yet.

This issue has been known since December 2013 and was also discussed
during the ctte debate.

Tollef back then promised to hold back any updates until May 2014.
We are way past that date.

And still, there are just "plans" to update systemd-shim, no concrete code.

As of this writing 204, is already over 1 year old and will be grossly
outdated once jessie releases. It also misses a lot of important
functionality.
That missing functionality is holding back other maintainers, like the
GNOME maintainers which need a newer logind for 3.12 or the AppArmor
folks, which want the AppArmorProfile support in v210.

I do not think it's reasonable to hold back any updates of systemd in
the hope that an updated systemd-shim eventually appears.

Michael
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 08:23:09PM +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote:
>  ❦  1 juillet 2014 10:53 -0700, Steve Langasek  :

> >  - hold systemd back at 204 until systemd-shim is updated

> The way user sessions work is quite different between 204 and 208. I
> would hope that Jessie will come with 208 for this reason. Holding
> systemd until systemd-shim is ready may prevent that.

Yes, you're right that this is a risk.  The risk of this happening if we
stick with systemd 204 until systemd-shim is ready is roughly the same as
the risk of our users having broken desktops on upgrade if we move to
systemd 208 and systemd-shim is not ready.

The question is which of these is a worse outcome for the jessie release.  I
come down firmly on the side that breaking desktops on upgrade is a worse
outcome than being behind on the latest and greatest user session interfaces.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Felipe Sateler]

On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 20:08:35 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:

> Am 01.07.2014 19:38, schrieb Eric Valette:
>>> I think that this would be an annoying waste of time for most users,
>>> since only a few people care so much about not being tainted by
>>> systemd
>> 
>> I do not care being tainted by systemd when it works. Actually on two
>> very different machines it means no audio for me.
>> 
>> On a NAS it means no boot(probably because of RAID10 fs in /etc/fstab),
>> so I reverted it on all machines
> 
> Have you filed a bug report for that?
> 
>> Bug for pulse is open for a while but so far no change.
> 
> Which bug report is that?

#748651, any help is appreciated



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Felipe Sateler


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Re: Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Eric Valette]

Which bug report is that?



https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=748651

I will try to add the requested debug log ASAP. Dunno where I got the 
initial bogus trace command from. Probably not invented it.


--eric




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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 20:21, schrieb Ondřej Surý:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 20:18, Ondřej Surý wrote:
>> Michael,
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 18:51, Michael Biebl wrote:
 Install systemd-sysv for systemd-shim.
 The libpam-systemd package in 204-9 ensures that either of the two is
 installed.
>>>
>>> The behaviour of acpi-support-base is correct, there shouldn't be any
>>> bug filed against it.
>>
>> please don't get me wrong, this is not an attack on systemd.
>>
>> There has to be a bug somewhere, if the power button can stop working
>> in partial upgrades. Maybe the dependencies need to be tighten or
>> conflict added or it just needs d/NEWS with explanation?
> 
> Ah, Steve has just posted an excellent explanation of the situation...

As I mentioned, the bug reporter didn't have systemd-sysv or
systemd-shim installed.

In 204-9 we tightend the dependencies of libpam-systemd to depend on
systemd-sysv | systemd-shim.

That's the reason why this bug is marked as fixed in 204-9 and I told
him to install systemd-shim manually.

We could extend the check in acpi-support-base to test for the existence
of the systemd-shim binary or the /run/systemd/system directory (which
only exists if systemd is PID 1).
This would also cover the upgrade case Steve mentioned.



Michael


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Mirosław Baran]

On 1 July 2014 19:15:32 IST, "Ondřej Surý"  wrote:

>unless you offer to ack as a front desk for bugs in systemd, then
>please go with your judgments elsewhere. Your judgmental
>comments are neither helpful nor welcome here.

My comment was factual and polite, thank you very much.

Being a DD is not a free pass for being unnecessarily abrasive, and one does 
not get special blessing just by by having their key anointed by the keyring's 
grace.

HTH, HAND
– Mirosław Baran




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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Eric Valette]

On 01/07/2014 19:59, Matthias Klumpp wrote:


These are valid points, and thank you for reporting bugs! However, as
unstable user, some breakage can be expected, and the point for
transitioning early in unstable is to make the transition as smooth as
possible when someone uprades Debian stable, which is not affected by
init-system changes at all.


Sure. I also had bug with libc, X and so on in the past breaking the 
machine. Just my personal feeling is that it does currently break valid 
setup a bit easily to my taste (setup running for years on unstable + 
experimental while regularly updated).


Running stable is fine *when you can*. Each user buying a recent AMD/ATI 
graphic cards or and AMD APU for an htpc needs experimental stuff to get 
video acceleration (glamor support is not even in unstable and radeonsi 
and later needs it). Support for recent Intel graphic feature is also 
problematic and vaapi is undergoing massive changes in th same area.


You can indeed argue it is a way of rapidly collecting bugs but you 
better have to fix them rapidly enough or people will revert and/or hold 
their packages for not being annoyed until it stabilizes more and it 
will/may void the target.


And again, I have no religious/sound opinion on which init system is 
better. As an old folk I'm a bit concerned about the size for 
maintainability reasons and the fact that it is almost already mandatory 
because more and more packages starts depending on it or making changes 
that implies systemd (like udisks2) but that's all.


-- eric




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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

>> Michael closed it straight away, without investigating the issue.

> Oh, I did. That's why I told you to install systemd-shim.

Now could you please reopen bug 753357, or at least allow me to do it?

-- Juliusz


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  1 juillet 2014 10:53 -0700, Steve Langasek  :

>  - hold systemd back at 204 until systemd-shim is updated

The way user sessions work is quite different between 204 and 208. I
would hope that Jessie will come with 208 for this reason. Holding
systemd until systemd-shim is ready may prevent that.
-- 
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Ondřej Surý]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 20:18, Ondřej Surý wrote:
> Michael,
> 
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 18:51, Michael Biebl wrote:
> > > Install systemd-sysv for systemd-shim.
> > > The libpam-systemd package in 204-9 ensures that either of the two is
> > > installed.
> > 
> > The behaviour of acpi-support-base is correct, there shouldn't be any
> > bug filed against it.
> 
> please don't get me wrong, this is not an attack on systemd.
> 
> There has to be a bug somewhere, if the power button can stop working
> in partial upgrades. Maybe the dependencies need to be tighten or
> conflict added or it just needs d/NEWS with explanation?

Ah, Steve has just posted an excellent explanation of the situation...

O.
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Ondřej Surý]

Michael,

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 18:51, Michael Biebl wrote:
> > Install systemd-sysv for systemd-shim.
> > The libpam-systemd package in 204-9 ensures that either of the two is
> > installed.
> 
> The behaviour of acpi-support-base is correct, there shouldn't be any
> bug filed against it.

please don't get me wrong, this is not an attack on systemd.

There has to be a bug somewhere, if the power button can stop working
in partial upgrades. Maybe the dependencies need to be tighten or
conflict added or it just needs d/NEWS with explanation?

Ondrej
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Ondřej Surý]

Miroslaw,

unless you offer to ack as a front desk for bugs in systemd, then
please go with your judgments elsewhere. Your judgmental
comments are neither helpful nor welcome here.

Thanks,
Ondrej

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 18:17, Mirosław Baran wrote:
> Michael Biebl made an argument from authority:
> 
> > Am 01.07.2014 17:35, schrieb Juliusz Chroboczek:
> 
> >> I am not a Debian Developer.  I am not bound by the Social Contract.
> 
> > I may remind you about [1] then. If you feel like you need to rant or
> > vent, please do it someplace else or expect a terse answer like the one
> > you got.
> 
> Your answer wasn't *just* terse. Your answer was downright rude.
> 
> Kind regards,
> – Miroslaw Baran
> 
> 
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 19:38, schrieb Eric Valette:
>> I think that this would be an annoying waste of time for most users,
>> since only a few people care so much about not being tainted by systemd
> 
> I do not care being tainted by systemd when it works. Actually on two
> very different machines it means no audio for me.
> 
> On a NAS it means no boot(probably because of RAID10 fs in /etc/fstab),
> so I reverted it on all machines

Have you filed a bug report for that?

> Bug for pulse is open for a while but so far no change.

Which bug report is that?

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Bug#753422: ITP: node-archiver -- streaming interface for archive generation

[Andrew Kelley]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Andrew Kelley 
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name: node-archiver
  Version : 0.10.1
  Upstream Author : Chris Talkington (http://christalkington.com/)
* URL : https://github.com/ctalkington/node-archiver
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: JavaScript
  Description : streaming interface for archive generation - Node.js
module

 archiver is a Node.js module which provides a streaming API for generating
 zip and tar archives.
 .
 Node.js is an event-based server-side JavaScript engine.

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Lars Wirzenius]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 06:53:27PM +0200, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> > The replies were not just terse, the replies were downright rude.
> 
> That's hardly the main problem with Michael's behaviour.

I stand by what I said yesterday, in a different thread, but the same
mailing list:

# When a project the size of Debian makes a decision on a controversial
# subject, it is natural, and expected, that there is vigorous debate
# about the topic before a decision is reached. After that, however, if
# the debate continues, or members of Debian keep trying to fight the
# decision, or keep bringing it up over and over again, it hurts the
# ability of the project to continue working. If every decision we make
# needs to be re-discussed at the whim of any one disgruntled individual
# for years to come, nobody's going to have fun.

Juliusz, you concluded your bug report with the following paragraph:

> Folks, I understand that you're excited about systemd, but this sort
> of stealthy pulling in of code is something that really pisses
> people off. If I'd rather not be running 15 lines of code as pid
> 1, please respect my wishes.

What you did was continue a multi-year-long flame war about systemd.
That was not cool. Even were that not the case, you should have known
that it would not help resolve the problem by being offensive to the
people whose help you need to get things fixed, but you did it anyway.
Was that wise?

Did you deserve to be mistreated because of your impoliteness? No, you
didn't, and, as it happens, I don't think you were. Michael gave you a
constructive suggestion for how to deal with the situation, and even
if was brief about it, I can't see that he was impolite about it.

If you knowingly provoke people, and they don't jump to fulfil your
demands on their free time, then I don't consider that to be rude.

Juliusz:
> I've filed hundreds of bugs against Debian over the last fifteen years.
> The kind of attitude exhibited by Michael is fairly rare, but when it
> happens, it harms the whole project by driving users away from the bug
> tracker.  I therefore stand by my point that DDs should be held to higher
> standards than random users.

I think we should hold everyone to the same standard of behaviour.
Anything else is rude.

Now, can we please stop this thread? It has already pissed off enough
people.

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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2014-07-01, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez  wrote:
> Maybe desktops user don't care much about the init system as long as
> they can boot to the desktop.

They care as long as everything works. And for "everything works" to
keep on happening, we need a effective migration to systemd, or a army
of developers to ensure everything keeps working. I still fail to see
that army.
(for example, with the newest upower and !systemd, the kde plasma
desktop won't allow you to reboot/suspend/... the system. Having someone
investigating it would be nice)

> But I think that many sysadmins that are going to upgrade their servers
> from wheezy to jessie care about this. I bet that not few of them would
> want to stick with sysvinit for jessie at least.

The server sysadmins who cares about this reads release notes.

Please. Let's keep it working for everyone. Systemd now.

/Sune


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Re: Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Matthias Klumpp]

2014-07-01 19:38 GMT+02:00 Eric Valette :
>> I think that this would be an annoying waste of time for most users,
>> since only a few people care so much about not being tainted by systemd
>
>
> I do not care being tainted by systemd when it works. Actually on two very
> different machines it means no audio for me.
>
> On a NAS it means no boot(probably because of RAID10 fs in /etc/fstab), so I
> reverted it on all machines
>
> Bug for pulse is open for a while but so far no change.
>
> and BTW, rtkit does not work with systemd208, udsiks2 depends on
> libpam-systemd,   and systemd-shim is incompatible with systemd-shim meaning
> usb key hotplus is now unavailable and rtkit also.
>
> I think that as long as the transition is not smooth, whithout any religious
> conveiction, people will complain. For me, the forced transition was
> introduced too early
These are valid points, and thank you for reporting bugs! However, as
unstable user, some breakage can be expected, and the point for
transitioning early in unstable is to make the transition as smooth as
possible when someone uprades Debian stable, which is not affected by
init-system changes at all.
So I think the transition was just at the right time to create a great
Jessie release.
Cheers,
Matthias

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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 06:09:08PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jul 01, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez  wrote:

> > I think that a critical debconf warning should be in place to avoid
> > replacing the init system of users without prior explicit consent.
> I think that this would be an annoying waste of time for most users, 
> since only a few people care so much about not being tainted by systemd.

I agree with you (and disagree with Russ) that we shouldn't give everyone a
debconf prompt on upgrade.

But you are willfully misrepresenting the problem.  People care that *their
system doesn't break*; users do not currently have confidence that upgrading
to systemd won't break their system, and this thread started because of a
bug that happened after upgrade.  Finding such bugs, and seeing them closed
with no action, does nothing to inspire further confidence that systemd is
going to be a smooth upgrade.

Whenever anyone expresses concern about systemd reliability on Debian,
systemd apologists are quick to say that it works on their system.  This is
worth exactly nothing.  A wet ball of string would boot 80% of system
configurations; the question is, are we going to live up to Debian's good
name and support the other 20%, or are we going to make every one of those
other users fend for themselves?

There needs to be a lot less sneering at users who are unhappy with systemd,
and a lot more taking ownership of the real and actual issues users are
running into on upgrade.


In this particular case, the problem is a tough one to solve.  systemd is
pulled in by default on upgrade, which we want; but logind won't work unless
there's a process running that provides the systemd dbus interface.  There
are two possible implementations of this interface: systemd-shim, which at
present is only compatible with systemd-logind up to 204; and systemd
itself, which obviously requires a reboot to take effect.

I think the current default to pull in systemd-sysv and not systemd-shim is
wrong, because of the problems introduced on upgrade before rebooting to the
new init.  But the systemd maintainers are anxious to update to a newer
version in unstable, and while there are plans in Ubuntu to make
systemd-shim support the interfaces needed for newer logind, this isn't
ready yet.  If we take systemd 208 into jessie, and systemd-shim
compatibility doesn't land, this means an unavoidably bad experience for
users pre-reboot on upgrade:  the power button won't work (as shown), a
desktop user will not be able to sanely re-login post logout (again due to
logind), various things like brightness controls are AIUI likely to stop
working.


To deliver a proper upgrade experience in jessie, I believe the right answer
is:

 - hold systemd back at 204 until systemd-shim is updated
 - switch the dependency from libpam-systemd to pull in systemd-shim, not
   just systemd-sysv
 - update sysvinit to pull in systemd-sysv by default
 - once systemd-shim supports the 208 interfaces, update systemd
 - post-jessie, drop the dependency on systemd-shim to a non-default
   alternative

This would ensure that users' systems continue to work correctly on upgrade,
rather than being left broken after reboot.  At the same time, it should
ensure that users who upgrade to jessie will by default get systemd as init
on the first reboot, which is what we want.

I don't believe there is a good argument for why we should take a newer
upstream version of systemd for jessie if it means subjecting our users to
pre-reboot breakage on upgrades.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Bug#753418: ITP: node-zip-stream -- streaming zip archive generator

[Andrew Kelley]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Andrew Kelley 
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name: node-zip-stream
  Version : 0.3.5
  Upstream Author : Chris Talkington (http://christalkington.com/)
* URL : https://github.com/ctalkington/node-zip-stream
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: JavaScript
  Description : streaming zip archive generator - Node.js module

 zip-stream is a streaming zip archive generator Node.js module. It was
built
 to be a successor to zipstream. Dependencies are kept to a minimum through
the
 use of many of Node.js's built-in modules including the use of zlib module
for
 compression.
 .
 This module is meant to be wrapped internally by other modules and
therefore
 lacks any queue management. This means you have to wait until the previous
 entry has been fully consumed to add another. Nested callbacks should be
used
 to add multiple entries. There are modules like async that ease the so
called
 "callback hell".
 .
 If you want a module that handles entry queueing and more, you should check
 out archiver which uses this module internally.
 .
 Node.js is an event-based server-side JavaScript engine.

Re: Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Eric Valette]

I think that this would be an annoying waste of time for most users,
since only a few people care so much about not being tainted by systemd


I do not care being tainted by systemd when it works. Actually on two 
very different machines it means no audio for me.


On a NAS it means no boot(probably because of RAID10 fs in /etc/fstab), 
so I reverted it on all machines


Bug for pulse is open for a while but so far no change.

and BTW, rtkit does not work with systemd208, udsiks2 depends on 
libpam-systemd,   and systemd-shim is incompatible with systemd-shim 
meaning usb key hotplus is now unavailable and rtkit also.


I think that as long as the transition is not smooth, whithout any 
religious conveiction, people will complain. For me, the forced 
transition was introduced too early


-- eric


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Lars Wirzenius]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 04:23:01PM +0100, Wookey wrote:
> You get a choice of 'prevent-systemd' which stops it running as init
> but allows the -shim and libpam packages so that logind and the like
> will work. Or 'systemd-must-die' which conflicts with everything
> systemdish.

Wookey,

Please rename the systemd-must-die package to something neutral. Thank
you.

-- 
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http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ -- GTD for hackers


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez]

On 01/07/14 18:09, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jul 01, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez  wrote:
> 
>> I think that a critical debconf warning should be in place to avoid
>> replacing the init system of users without prior explicit consent.
> I think that this would be an annoying waste of time for most users, 
> since only a few people care so much about not being tainted by systemd.
> 

Maybe desktops user don't care much about the init system as long as
they can boot to the desktop.

But I think that many sysadmins that are going to upgrade their servers
from wheezy to jessie care about this. I bet that not few of them would
want to stick with sysvinit for jessie at least.



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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 18:53, schrieb Juliusz Chroboczek:
> Michael closed it straight away,
> without investigating the issue.

Oh, I did. That's why I told you to install systemd-shim.

It would be great if you can dial down your accusations a little.

-- 
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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Ondřej Surý]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 18:09, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jul 01, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez  wrote:
> 
> > I think that a critical debconf warning should be in place to avoid
> > replacing the init system of users without prior explicit consent.
> I think that this would be an annoying waste of time for most users, 
> since only a few people care so much about not being tainted by systemd.

Yes and we *have* release notes for this kind of information.

O.
-- 
Ondřej Surý 
Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

> The replies were not just terse, the replies were downright rude.

That's hardly the main problem with Michael's behaviour.

I reported an actual bug, including conclusions that I got from fourty
minutes of tracing the ACPI scripts.  Michael closed it straight away,
without investigating the issue.  I reopened the bug, explaining the
problem again.  Michael closed it straight away again.

I've filed hundreds of bugs against Debian over the last fifteen years.
The kind of attitude exhibited by Michael is fairly rare, but when it
happens, it harms the whole project by driving users away from the bug
tracker.  I therefore stand by my point that DDs should be held to higher
standards than random users.

-- Juliusz


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 18:28, schrieb Ondřej Surý:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 18:03, Jakub Wilk wrote:
>> * Juliusz Chroboczek , 2014-07-01, 15:25:
>>> I filed bug 753357
>>
>> Why is this bug marked as fixed in systemd/204-9?
> 
> I suggest to reassign this bug to acpi-support-base and stop this
> yet-another-senseless-flamewar-about-systemd in the beginning
> pretty please.

As explained elsewhere

> Install systemd-sysv for systemd-shim.
> The libpam-systemd package in 204-9 ensures that either of the two is
> installed.


The behaviour of acpi-support-base is correct, there shouldn't be any
bug filed against it.


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Marco d'Itri]

On Jul 01, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez  wrote:

> I think that a critical debconf warning should be in place to avoid
> replacing the init system of users without prior explicit consent.
I think that this would be an annoying waste of time for most users, 
since only a few people care so much about not being tainted by systemd.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Ondřej Surý]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 18:03, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> * Juliusz Chroboczek , 2014-07-01, 15:25:
> >I filed bug 753357
> 
> Why is this bug marked as fixed in systemd/204-9?

I suggest to reassign this bug to acpi-support-base and stop this
yet-another-senseless-flamewar-about-systemd in the beginning
pretty please.

O.
-- 
Ondřej Surý 
Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server


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Bug#753412: ITP: node-jsondiffpatch -- Diff & Patch for Javascript objects

[Andrew Kelley]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Andrew Kelley 
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name: node-jsondiffpatch
  Version : 0.1.7
  Upstream Author : Benjamin Eidelman 
* URL : https://github.com/benjamine/jsondiffpatch
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: JavaScript
  Description : Diff & Patch for Javascript objects - Node.js module

 jsondiffpatch is a Node.js module which produces JSON-formatted diffs
 between objects, and can apply a JSON diff to an object and derive the
 second object.
 .
 Node.js is an event-based server-side JavaScript engine.

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Ondřej Surý]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 17:20, Thomas Weber wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 04:38:16PM +0200, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
> > The responses from the systemd maintainers are indeed on the terse side,
> > but I can imagine that your style of bug reporting does not invite our
> > volunteers to spend more time on it.
> 
> This is not a question of spending time. An upgrade broke functionality
> and purging systemd fixed this issue. That does not mean that it is a
> bug in systemd, but it surely is a bug somewhere, be it the dependencies
> (if systemd-shim is needed, why was it not installed during the upgrade?)
> or the code of some other package.
> Now, time is limited, but "I don't have time right now" is certainly not
> a reason to close a bug within three hours.
> 
> Or, taking a different perspective: now that the issue is known, what is
> done to prevent another user from hitting the very same issue in the
> future?

By reporting appropriate bug? If the power button ceased to work there
should be a bug report about power button not working and not about
preventing systemd to be installed.

O.
-- 
Ondřej Surý 
Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Thijs Kinkhorst]

On Tue, July 1, 2014 17:35, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
>>> gentle persuasion [...] is more in line with point 4 of the Debian
>>> Social Contract than [...] bullying?
>
>> May I suggest that you treat others the way you want to be treated?
>
> I am not a Debian Developer.  I am not bound by the Social Contract.

That you think that this highly formalistic argument determines that you
should not have to keep yourself to high standards when reporting bugs, I
think underlines exactly why you got a terse response.

> Are we to expect a higher standard of behaviour from a Debian Developer
> than from a random user who is pissed off because his system has just been
> broken?  Or is being a Debian Developer power without responsibility, as
> some of your esteemed colleagues appear to believe?

No, we expect a minimal standard of everyone that participates in the
Debian ecosystem. I suggest you read the Debian code of conduct before
interacting further with the volunteers that spend their own time to make
a completely free operating system for you to use.


Cheers,
Thijs


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Jose Luis Rivas]

On 01/07/14, 05:35pm, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> >> gentle persuasion [...] is more in line with point 4 of the Debian
> >> Social Contract than [...] bullying?
> 
> > May I suggest that you treat others the way you want to be treated?
> 
> I am not a Debian Developer.  I am not bound by the Social Contract.

FYI, you are bound to https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct. The reason
why that document exists is because the Social Contract has barely
something about behaviour.
> 
> Are we to expect a higher standard of behaviour from a Debian Developer
> than from a random user who is pissed off because his system has just been
> broken?  Or is being a Debian Developer power without responsibility, as
> some of your esteemed colleagues appear to believe?

Either Debian Developer or a regular user who's pissed of or happy, we
expect the same higher standard. CoC applies to everyone.
> 
> > The suggestion to just add conflicts is also not quite helpful.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm following.  There was no reason whatsoever to install
> systemd on my system, yet it got installed and broke the ACPI scripts.  To
> my untrained eyes, it looks like a conflict is missing somewhere.

Knowing what exactly installed systemd in your system should be helpful.
It's not like systemd got installed by itself without being a dependency
of another package.

Kind regards.
-- 
Jose Luis Rivas | ghostbar
The Debian Project → 
GPG D278 F9C1 5E54 61AA 3C1E  2FCD 13EC 43EE B9AC 8C43


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Mirosław Baran]

Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:

The responses from the systemd maintainers are indeed on the terse 
side,

but I can imagine that your style of bug reporting does not invite our
volunteers to spend more time on it.


The replies were not just terse, the replies were downright rude.

Can we perhaps agree that the maintainers should not be unnecessarily 
rude?


Kind regards
– Jubal


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Mirosław Baran]

Michael Biebl made an argument from authority:


Am 01.07.2014 17:35, schrieb Juliusz Chroboczek:



I am not a Debian Developer.  I am not bound by the Social Contract.



I may remind you about [1] then. If you feel like you need to rant or
vent, please do it someplace else or expect a terse answer like the one
you got.


Your answer wasn't *just* terse. Your answer was downright rude.

Kind regards,
– Miroslaw Baran


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Re: Sources licensed under PHP License and not being PHP are not distributable

[Russ Allbery]

Matthias Urlichs  writes:

> (C) Bite the bullet and admit that when everybody else calls a color
> "light blue" which we consider to be "cyan", we might as well docuent
> that fact instead of trying to convince everybody else that they're
> wrong, even if they are, from our PoV. After all, the color stays the
> same, no matter what people call it.

> By the same token, this license is valid by force of everybody under
> the sun considering it to be valid (taking intent and all that into
> account). The chance of an author of / contributor to one of these
> packages (nobody else has any legal standing to do so) suing us for
> distributing this code is … well … I suspect that if you want to get
> a lawyer to laugh, you might as well ask them.

> So. Bottom line: Can we agree to compromise on some modification of
> (C) informally, or is a GR required?

(C) seems right to me as well.  I don't see this as a matter of principle
unless the principle is "we refuse to deal with even major software
packages that do dumb and self-contradictory things with licenses but
without any intent to actually restrict the freedom of the software
covered by them."  And I don't actually agree with that principle.  For
stuff not already in Debian, sure, let's stick to a simple policy because
we can usually get people to change upstream and make the world a better
place, and we don't lose much if we fail.  But that doesn't really apply
to PHP.

This isn't like the GFDL where we have an actual, substantial disagreement
with upstream over whether something is free software.  The clear intent
and the de facto reality is that this software is free; the license just
has crappy wording that no one reads literally.  From a legal perspective,
I think one could make a pretty strong argument that estoppel applies to
any attempt to enforce the license literally at this point.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Jakub Wilk]

* Juliusz Chroboczek , 2014-07-01, 15:25:

I filed bug 753357


Why is this bug marked as fixed in systemd/204-9?

--
Jakub Wilk


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 17:35, schrieb Juliusz Chroboczek:
> 
> I am not a Debian Developer.  I am not bound by the Social Contract.
> 

I may remind you about [1] then. If you feel like you need to rant or
vent, please do it someplace else or expect a terse answer like the one
you got.


[1] https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_002
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Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Thomas Goirand]

On 06/30/2014 05:43 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:27:49AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:42:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
>>> ]] Thomas Goirand
 +1 for keeping the name which is funny
> 
> What's funny about an OS stating publicly that a specific piece of Free
> software---shipped and installed by default by that very same OS---"must
> die"?

Well, the package "kills" any instance of systemd in the system. So,
it's the package that is "stating publicly that systemd must die", which
is effectively what does the "systemd-must-die" package. It's absolutely
not the OS, or Debian that is doing this kind of statement.

Is everyone seeing evil everywhere each time there's the word "systemd"
mentioned, whatever the context? If people don't have humor, or may be
offended, then let's not use that name, but I don't think it helps.

> If anything, it encourages people to *make* fun of such an OS.

I don't think so. I think it encourages to be more easy going, and have
fun, but never mind. Let's keep Debian boring^W^Wportland weird. :)

Thomas


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Bug#753410: ITP: node-chalk -- Terminal string styling

[Andrew Kelley]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Andrew Kelley 
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name: node-chalk
  Version : 0.4.0
  Upstream Author : Sindre Sorhus  (
http://sindresorhus.com)
* URL : https://github.com/sindresorhus/chalk
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: JavaScript
  Description : Terminal string styling - Node.js module

 Chalk is a Node.js module which provides string styling via ANSI escape
codes
 without extending String.prototype.
 .
 Node.js is an event-based server-side JavaScript engine.

Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez]

On 01/07/14 17:20, Thomas Weber wrote:
> Or, taking a different perspective: now that the issue is known, what is
> done to prevent another user from hitting the very same issue in the
> future?

I think that a critical debconf warning should be in place to avoid
replacing the init system of users without prior explicit consent.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=747535



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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 01.07.2014 17:20, schrieb Thomas Weber:
> Or, taking a different perspective: now that the issue is known, what is
> done to prevent another user from hitting the very same issue in the
> future?

Install systemd-sysv for systemd-shim.
The libpam-systemd package in 204-9 ensures that either of the two is
installed.


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

>> gentle persuasion [...] is more in line with point 4 of the Debian
>> Social Contract than [...] bullying?

> May I suggest that you treat others the way you want to be treated?

I am not a Debian Developer.  I am not bound by the Social Contract.

Are we to expect a higher standard of behaviour from a Debian Developer
than from a random user who is pissed off because his system has just been
broken?  Or is being a Debian Developer power without responsibility, as
some of your esteemed colleagues appear to believe?

> The suggestion to just add conflicts is also not quite helpful.

I'm not sure I'm following.  There was no reason whatsoever to install
systemd on my system, yet it got installed and broke the ACPI scripts.  To
my untrained eyes, it looks like a conflict is missing somewhere.

-- Juliusz


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Bug#753408: ITP: openstack-doc-tools -- tools used by the OpenStack Documentation project

[Thomas Goirand]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Thomas Goirand 

* Package name: openstack-doc-tools
  Version : 0.15
  Upstream Author : OpenStack Development Mailing List 

* URL : https://github.com/openstack/openstack-doc-tools
* License : Apache-2.0
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : tools used by the OpenStack Documentation project

 This package contains a set of tools used to build the OpenStack documentation
 (install-guide, etc.) in multiple formats: html, pdf, etc. The input format is
 a set of XML documents.


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Wookey]

+++ Thorsten Glaser [2014-07-01 14:45 +]:
> Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> 
> >So I'm turning to this list for help:
> >
> >  1. Could some competent person tell me the right way to tell apt that it
> > should fail an upgrade rather than installing systemd?  I guess
> > I could make a dummy package that conflicts with systemd, but I'm
> 
> I made such a dummy package, and Wookey wanted to upload it
> yesterday IIRC. It is not on https://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html
> yet, though.

Ah yes. E-busy. Just uploaded 'prevent-systemd'. Whilst it's sat in NEW, you 
can get it from:
http://wookware.org/software/repo/
i.e deb http://wookware.org/software/repo/ sid main 

You get a choice of 'prevent-systemd' which stops it running as init
but allows the -shim and libpam packages so that logind and the like
will work. Or 'systemd-must-die' which conflicts with everything
systemdish. There may be a need for an intermediate package too, but
lets see how this goes for people.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Thomas Weber]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 04:38:16PM +0200, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
> The responses from the systemd maintainers are indeed on the terse side,
> but I can imagine that your style of bug reporting does not invite our
> volunteers to spend more time on it.

This is not a question of spending time. An upgrade broke functionality
and purging systemd fixed this issue. That does not mean that it is a
bug in systemd, but it surely is a bug somewhere, be it the dependencies
(if systemd-shim is needed, why was it not installed during the upgrade?)
or the code of some other package.
Now, time is limited, but "I don't have time right now" is certainly not
a reason to close a bug within three hours.

Or, taking a different perspective: now that the issue is known, what is
done to prevent another user from hitting the very same issue in the
future?

Thomas


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Neil Williams]

On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 18:26:53 +0400
vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:

> >   1. Could some competent person tell me the right way to tell apt
> > that it
> >  should fail an upgrade rather than installing systemd?  I guess
> >  I could make a dummy package that conflicts with systemd, but
> > I'm sure there's a better way.
> 
> I think you can just put
> 
> Package: systemd
> Pin: origin ""
> Pin-Priority: -1

If what you actually intend is to retain sysvinit-core, it would need to be 
systemd-sysv

-- 


Neil Williams
=
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/



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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Thorsten Glaser]

Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:

>So I'm turning to this list for help:
>
>  1. Could some competent person tell me the right way to tell apt that it
> should fail an upgrade rather than installing systemd?  I guess
> I could make a dummy package that conflicts with systemd, but I'm

I made such a dummy package, and Wookey wanted to upload it
yesterday IIRC. It is not on https://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html
yet, though.

bye,
//mirabilos


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Thijs Kinkhorst]

On Tue, July 1, 2014 15:25, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
>   2. Could some kind soul explain to the systemd maintainers that gentle
>  persuasion, while not always the most efficient way to take over the
>  world, is more in line with point 4 of the Debian Social Contract
>  than alternative approaches such as bullying?

May I suggest that you treat others the way you want to be treated? When
you chose to use words like "steathily", with have a strong connotation of
bad faith, you do not start a constructive bug fixing process. The
suggestion to just add conflicts is also not quite helpful.

The responses from the systemd maintainers are indeed on the terse side,
but I can imagine that your style of bug reporting does not invite our
volunteers to spend more time on it.


Cheers,
Thijs


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  1 juillet 2014 15:25 +0200, Juliusz Chroboczek 
 :

> A few days ago, after a routine upgrade from testing, the power button on
> my laptop ceased functioning.  I was busy at the time, so I lived with
> having to remember to type "sudo shutdown -h now" for a few days; yesterday,
> I finally took the time to debug the issue.
>
> I started with "strace -p $(pidof acpid)$", and it took me almost an hour
> to work it out.  It turns out that apt had helpfully installed systemd, so
> the powerbtn-acpi-support.sh script was detecting a running systemd-logind,
> and (reasonably enough) going on strike.

Not a systemd maintainer.

On your particular problem, you should look at why systemd didn't
initiate the shutdown when it detected you pressed the power button. I
don't know enough of how systemd fits in the power management stack in
Debian (and I miss such details), but I believe, you could modify
/etc/systemd/logind.conf and restart systemd-logind.

systemd being aimed at becoming the default init, it is natural that
various other packages do not step on its tasks by executing various
stuff. acpid is still useful outside those tasks as it allows to
transmit ACPI events as keyboard events (and I suppose other
things). Hence, we surely want it to continue to work with systemd.
-- 
 /* Identify the flock of penguins.  */
2.2.16 /usr/src/linux/arch/alpha/kernel/setup.c


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[vitalif]

  1. Could some competent person tell me the right way to tell apt that 
it

 should fail an upgrade rather than installing systemd?  I guess
 I could make a dummy package that conflicts with systemd, but I'm
 sure there's a better way.


I think you can just put

Package: systemd
Pin: origin ""
Pin-Priority: -1

in your /etc/apt/preferences...


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Re: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Darac Marjal]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 03:25:36PM +0200, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> A few days ago, after a routine upgrade from testing, the power button on
> my laptop ceased functioning.  I was busy at the time, so I lived with
> having to remember to type "sudo shutdown -h now" for a few days; yesterday,
> I finally took the time to debug the issue.
> 
> I started with "strace -p $(pidof acpid)$", and it took me almost an hour
> to work it out.  It turns out that apt had helpfully installed systemd, so
> the powerbtn-acpi-support.sh script was detecting a running systemd-logind,
> and (reasonably enough) going on strike.

That sounds like a bug to me. Either in systemd-logind (if that was
supposed to have handled the power button event instead) or in acpid for
not telling systemd-logind about the event.

Hmm. I presume the intention is that logged in users are notified of the
impending shut down. Simply refusing to honour the power button because
of the presence of a process sounds like a nightmare to me.

> 
> I was a little bit annoyed at that, so I filed bug 753357, which was
> immediately closed by Michael Biebl with the following advice:
> 
>   > install systemd-shim

For the record, and despite its name, systemd-shim is not systemd. If
you read the description of the package, it becomes clearer:

  This package emulates the systemd function that are required to run
  the systemd helpers without using the init service

In other words, systemd-shim is a shim (a thin interfacing layer). You
place it between programs that expect to be able to use systemd and
another init system (sysv usually).

Consider it the reverse of systemd-sysv.

> 
> I reopened the bug and explained that I have no desire to run systemd,
> that the actual bug is about silently breaking my power button during
> a routine upgrade, and that perhaps, just perhaps, the systemd maintainers
> could be so kind as to avoid such issues in the future by adding suitable
> "conflicts" to the systemd package.  The bug was immediately closed again:
> 
>   > Certainly not.
> 
> So I'm turning to this list for help:
> 
>   1. Could some competent person tell me the right way to tell apt that it
>  should fail an upgrade rather than installing systemd?  I guess
>  I could make a dummy package that conflicts with systemd, but I'm
>  sure there's a better way.
> 
>   2. Could some kind soul explain to the systemd maintainers that gentle
>  persuasion, while not always the most efficient way to take over the
>  world, is more in line with point 4 of the Debian Social Contract
>  than alternative approaches such as bullying?
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> 
> -- Juliusz
> 
> 
> -- 
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> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
> Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87y4wdyzvz.wl%...@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr
> 


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How to avoid stealth installation of systemd?

[Juliusz Chroboczek]

Dear all,

A few days ago, after a routine upgrade from testing, the power button on
my laptop ceased functioning.  I was busy at the time, so I lived with
having to remember to type "sudo shutdown -h now" for a few days; yesterday,
I finally took the time to debug the issue.

I started with "strace -p $(pidof acpid)$", and it took me almost an hour
to work it out.  It turns out that apt had helpfully installed systemd, so
the powerbtn-acpi-support.sh script was detecting a running systemd-logind,
and (reasonably enough) going on strike.

I was a little bit annoyed at that, so I filed bug 753357, which was
immediately closed by Michael Biebl with the following advice:

  > install systemd-shim

I reopened the bug and explained that I have no desire to run systemd,
that the actual bug is about silently breaking my power button during
a routine upgrade, and that perhaps, just perhaps, the systemd maintainers
could be so kind as to avoid such issues in the future by adding suitable
"conflicts" to the systemd package.  The bug was immediately closed again:

  > Certainly not.

So I'm turning to this list for help:

  1. Could some competent person tell me the right way to tell apt that it
 should fail an upgrade rather than installing systemd?  I guess
 I could make a dummy package that conflicts with systemd, but I'm
 sure there's a better way.

  2. Could some kind soul explain to the systemd maintainers that gentle
 persuasion, while not always the most efficient way to take over the
 world, is more in line with point 4 of the Debian Social Contract
 than alternative approaches such as bullying?

Thanks a lot,

-- Juliusz


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Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Milan P. Stanic]

On Tue, 2014-07-01 at 13:01, Ondřej Surý wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 08:15, Stefano Rivera wrote:
> > Hi Matthias (2014.06.26_08:38:09_+0200)
> > > Of these, roughly 20% have switched to systemd. And they apparently did 
> > > not
> > > and do not have any problem with it, otherwise we'd hear about it. Here 
> > > and
> > > other places. Quite loudly.
> > 
> > Not necessarily.
> > 
> > My laptop won't boot with systemd, although other machines I have will.
> > I haven't filed a bug, because I haven't had the time to sit down and
> > learn how to debug systemd booting, and I wouldn't want to file an bug
> > until I know what's going on...
> 
> Still - this is just anecdotic evidence that doesn't deviate from normal
> modus operandi of Debian packaging (e.g. most software has bugs).
> I think that what Matthias wanted to say is there is no massive breakage
> among users who has switched to systemd (and not that systemd is
> 100% bug free).

I switched to systemd on Asus transformer tf101 (ARM 32-bit) about one
year ago without any problem, and that device is not officially
supported by Debian nor it is tested. And I've built hackish 3.1.10
kernel for it and I have a lot of problem with that device but none is
related to systemd.
So, saying that the systemd is problematic does not 'keeping the water'
IMHO. It has bugs for sure but is there any non simple software without
bugs. I suspect.


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Re: Sources licensed under PHP License and not being PHP are not distributable

[Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez]

On 30/06/14 23:47, Marco d'Itri wrote:
>> Unless I'm mistaken, the wording in the PHP license makes it invalid for
>> > anybody that isn't actually the PHP project to use without making a
>> > false claim that "THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE PHP DEVELOPMENT
>> > TEAM".
> The fact that ~nobody else believes this, the authors of these 
> extentions among them, indeed suggests that you are mistaken.

I agree.

The text of a license don't means the same to a lawyer than to a developer.
Developers try to understand licenses by applying logic, but logic don't
always translates into legal requirements.


One example of that is the common usage of the "All rights reserved"
wording on BSD licenses. [1]

Another example is the *huge* list of software that we distribute that
claims to be provided by the regents of the University of California [2],
when that is clearly not true in many cases:

$ grep -l 'THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS' /usr/share/doc/*/copyright 
| wc -l
360


So, unless a lawyer (or the authors of the license) tells us that using the
"PHP License version 3.01" for distributing software not developed by the
"PHP DEVELOPMENT TEAM" is illegal, I suggest that we close all the bugs filed,
and that we remove the "Uses PHP License, but is not PHP" from the REJECT-FAQ.


---
[1] 
http://projects.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss/2013-June/001011.html
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California



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Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian

[Ondřej Surý]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 08:15, Stefano Rivera wrote:
> Hi Matthias (2014.06.26_08:38:09_+0200)
> > Of these, roughly 20% have switched to systemd. And they apparently did not
> > and do not have any problem with it, otherwise we'd hear about it. Here and
> > other places. Quite loudly.
> 
> Not necessarily.
> 
> My laptop won't boot with systemd, although other machines I have will.
> I haven't filed a bug, because I haven't had the time to sit down and
> learn how to debug systemd booting, and I wouldn't want to file an bug
> until I know what's going on...

Still - this is just anecdotic evidence that doesn't deviate from normal
modus operandi of Debian packaging (e.g. most software has bugs).
I think that what Matthias wanted to say is there is no massive breakage
among users who has switched to systemd (and not that systemd is
100% bug free).

O.
-- 
Ondřej Surý 
Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server


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Re: Sources licensed under PHP License and not being PHP are not distributable

[Ondřej Surý]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 10:17, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> (C) Bite the bullet and admit that when everybody else calls a color
> "light blue" which we consider to be "cyan", we might as well docuent
> that fact instead of trying to convince everybody else that they're
> wrong, even if they are, from our PoV. After all, the color stays the
> same, no matter what people call it.
> 
> By the same token, this license is valid by force of everybody under
> the sun considering it to be valid (taking intent and all that into
> account). The chance of an author of / contributor to one of these
> packages (nobody else has any legal standing to do so) suing us for
> distributing this code is … well … I suspect that if you want to get
> a lawyer to laugh, you might as well ask them.
> 
> So. Bottom line: Can we agree to compromise on some modification of
> (C) informally, or is a GR required?

JFTR the http://www.php.net/software page claims that software
distributed from php.net, pecl.php.net and pear.php.net distributes
software under PHP License[1].

This was also claimed in some private emails between me and
PHP folks[2].

My conclusion is that the PHP folks do agree that the PHP License
cannot be used for software outside *.php.net, but it's perfectly OK
for stuff distributed from *.php.net.

If there's no wild disagreement from FTP Masters on this in couple
of days I will just start closing bugs on packages distributed from
*.php.net.

1,2: smarty3 should be okay as well, it's just not yet documented there.

Ondrej
-- 
Ondřej Surý 
Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server


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Bug#753382: ITP: ucpp -- embeddable, quick and light C preprocessor

[Rene Engelhard]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Rene Engelhard 

* Package name: ucpp
  Version : 1.3.2
* URL : Thomas Pornin 
* License : BSD
  Programming Lang: C
  Description : embeddable, quick and light C preprocessor

A C preprocessor designed to be embeddable, quick, light and fully compliant to
ISO Standard 9899:1999, aka ISO C99, or simply, C99.

will build
 - ucpp (standalone binary)
 - libucpp-dev (_static_ library to embed ucpp)

Needed because of cpp-4.7(maybe?) going away, see
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=748004

Regards,

Rene


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Re: Sources licensed under PHP License and not being PHP are not distributable

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Clint Byrum:
> That's quite the opposite of what I would suggest. Such distributions
> may actually feel that they can withstand any damages that PHP/Zend can
> claim against them, and their brands depend on them taking care of their
> end users, but even if they didn't, they could also absorb any damage
> those users could claim.
> 
It is quite obvious that PHP/Zend does not give a flying  about the way
the license is (mis)used by third parties. Also quite obviously, these
selfsame third parties think the license to be perfectly applicable, will
not change it, and consider us quite strange for even mentioning this.

Where do we go from here? We have three options …

(A) Remove from Debian. Quite frankly, I'd be for this in a heartbeat
if it would make people switch to a saner programming language,
but that's wishful thinking (rewrite Mediawiki in Python??).

Best outcome: some people create a separate apt archive for the PHP
modules we kick out. Worst outcome: a lot of people switch distros
because they need the stuff and we lose contributors, not just users.

(B) Get Upstream (all of them) to change licenses.

My opinion: Fat chance.

(C) Bite the bullet and admit that when everybody else calls a color
"light blue" which we consider to be "cyan", we might as well docuent
that fact instead of trying to convince everybody else that they're
wrong, even if they are, from our PoV. After all, the color stays the
same, no matter what people call it.

By the same token, this license is valid by force of everybody under
the sun considering it to be valid (taking intent and all that into
account). The chance of an author of / contributor to one of these
packages (nobody else has any legal standing to do so) suing us for
distributing this code is … well … I suspect that if you want to get
a lawyer to laugh, you might as well ask them.

So. Bottom line: Can we agree to compromise on some modification of
(C) informally, or is a GR required?

Disclaimer: IANAL.

-- 
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Re: Sources licensed under PHP License and not being PHP are not distributable

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Steve Langasek:
> And yes, there are PHP extensions that are not distributable in binary form
> because of this license.  But relicensing *the extension* changes nothing
> about this, they are *still* not redistributable as part of Debian because
> they're linking GPL code into PHP which is and will remain GPL-incompatible.
> 
Right, but this is about the strange way some people apply the PHP license
in general, not GPL violations by specific extensions.

Please stay somewhat on topic here.
-- 
-- Matthias Urlichs


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How to restart New Member Process?

[Kiwamu Okabe]

Hi developers,

How to restart New Member Process?

I have had New Member Process in the past.
But It's canceled, because I had not a good response to it.

https://nm.debian.org/public/process/13039

Now, I would like to dput packages for ATS2 language.

http://www.ats-lang.org/
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=746026

Best regards,
-- 
Kiwamu Okabe at METASEPI DESIGN


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