Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
On 9/21/06, Thaddeus H. Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I ask you, is thatfair? Well, I guess it isn't fair. Look, have any of you ever sent an email out of frustration, then wish you could take it back? I am sorry, I hope somebody will forgive me. I just need to loose my pride and switch to Ubuntu. I haven't and I know the LUG here will laugh at me and tell me "We told you so" but what you say is true. Different goals. What I was telling my friends was I wanted to use the best community distro based on free software out there. I thought it was Debian and maybe it still is but I guess I need to ask myself: What is the best community distro based on free software that isn't so free that it doesn't work. I guess that right now is Ubuntu.
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
On 9/21/06, Ben Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: -I can see you're frustrated. You've invested a lot of energy intowriting this note to us about a problem you see in Debian. Now, if itreally does pain you to write it, the least you could do is tell us what your hardware is. Otherwise, how do you expect us to make things better for you?Regards,Ben Okay: Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG. According to this message at bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=363967 it isn't packaged because: "there is still an official statement of -release and -kernel about the policy for oot-modules in etch missing." showing it just isn't in Debian because policy. Next: SD drive, works with Ubuntu with their "free stuuf." Probably isn't supported by policy either. Lastly, suspend doesn't work with Debian but does with Dapper. I am not an expert with all the technical specifics, but when I see messages like this from the release manager: lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2006/09/msg00453.html I conclude, why am I trying to wait patiently? Is Debian ever going to support hardware where there is "free software" out there for it? Because of a pios loyalty to a docoument and not to mankind I conclude not. Alfredo Diega
Debian cares more about documents than people
It really pains me to write this since I have used stable for a long time. Unfortunately, I think you could use a wakeup call. Much of my hardware is never supported by you guys even though it is "free enough" to be supported by the linux kernel and other community groups like Ubuntu. Dapper has supported all my hardware "out of the box" without third party or unsupported stuff which are *really* nonfree. Even though Dapper's "out of the box software" is "free enough" to be able to modify and redistribute, you guys still refuse to support much of it because of some document, which I am beginning to believe you care more about than people. If you cared about people why would you not want them to be able to use software? *HOW MUCH FREEDOM CAN PEOPLE REALLY HAVE IF THEY CANNOT EVEN RUN THE SOFTWARE*? The real reason Ubuntu is more popular is somebody had the ingenious idea that people should have software that works. You have software that doesn't work in that people can't use it, yet who cares about the people, you have your documents which are more important. :) As for the documents, you pick and choose which ones to follow. Like you guys really pay attention to the social contract on these mailing lists? I think not. Documents which force you to care about people(Social Contract) you freely ignore whereas documents which get you out of supporting your users hardware, you hold to. Obviously, people are not what matter to you guys. Alfredo Diega
Debian should have a weekly debate
I really believe Debian would benefit if they had a weekly debate. Iunderstand you debate on things you are voting on, but I think it could bebetter if you debated on general concerns. I was reading the "Why Ubuntu has all the ideas" thread and think two things were apparent.First- Many wrote quick feelings out of impulse. Often, they had good ideasthey wanted to express, but because of impulse, said them in ways that were not the most productive. Many were accused of being trolls or making personalattacks because of this.Second- Many people had a few issues that they so deeply wanted to expressthat they couldn't hold back, even though it may cause an argument. I don't think this is a bad thing, but it does to me show many have issues they wouldlike to be discussed. This leads me to believe one of the best things the Debian project couldadopt is a weekly debate. This is really healthy for a society, I hope you take the idea seriously. Every day when I watch CNN they have a panel of peopledebating key issues which need to be addressed. Whenever I come away from oneof those debates, I know I am better informed, and better able to contribute to society in a productive way. I think this will also hold true for all theDebian Developers.This is what needs to happen, two weeks before a debate there needs to be atopic announced and a call for volunteers. There should be 3-4 people who feel passionately about the issue who should volunteer. Then they should have twoweeks to draft a statement, about 1-3 pages long about how they feel about thesubject. During the two weeks they could privately collaborate with others for advice. After two weeks the volunteers would release their statements on adebian-debate mailing list or something. They should then have 48 hours toofficially respond to the other statements. Then it should be open floor where all the devs comment and each of the statements and rebuttals. That could lasta few days. Then the next week it starts again. (Obviously if you have twoweeks to prepare but the debate happen each week they would have to slightly stager over each other.) *These debates should not happen on IRC. If feelings are too deep out of impulse things will be said that shouldn't be said* I really believe this will allow those who feel passionately about a subject to have a voice, and allow time and contemplation so that there aren't abruptstatements that are too impulsive and not that informative. It takes time to often draft a statement that articulates your thoughts in a way that is best said. Again there could be some private collaboration. Obviously the topics should not be things like: Should Debian squash bugs?Should Devs continue to use the command line? Those are pointless. How about things like some of the main topics in the "Ubuntu" thread. How do you feel about the innovation level and direction in Debian? Whatshould stay the same, and how should things be changed? Should there be only individual maintainers of important packages or shouldthey be done in teams? Or should there be a central source that all Developerscan touch, or should maintainers have a more "you worry about your package, and me mine" attitude? Or is there a better middle ground? How well is Debian catering to the Desktop user? Should more be done, less,or are things just fine? Or maybe in some way should things be done different? I am not saying these are the best topics, but I think you get the idea. I just really feel some healthy debate would be beneficial for Debian. It wouldkeep everyone more informed on key issues, and would allow people who feelpassionately about the subject to get it out in an intellectual manner. It will also get discussion about things that really need to be discussed, but peopleare afraid to bring up because feelings run high. alfo
Debian should have a weekly debate
I really believe Debian would benefit if they had a weekly debate. Iunderstand you debate on things you are voting on, but I think it could bebetter if you debated on general concerns. I was reading the "Why Ubuntu has all the ideas" thread and think two things were apparent.First- Many wrote quick feelings out of impulse. Often, they had good ideasthey wanted to express, but because of impulse, said them in ways that were not the most productive. Many were accused of being trolls or making personalattacks because of this.Second- Many people had a few issues that they so deeply wanted to expressthat they couldn't hold back, even though it may cause an argument. I don't think this is a bad thing, but it does to me show many have issues they wouldlike to be discussed. This leads me to believe one of the best things the Debian project couldadopt is a weekly debate. This is really healthy for a society, I hope you take the idea seriously. Every day when I watch CNN they have a panel of peopledebating key issues which need to be addressed. Whenever I come away from oneof those debates, I know I am better informed, and better able to contribute to society in a productive way. I think this will also hold true for all theDebian Developers.This is what needs to happen, two weeks before a debate there needs to be atopic announced and a call for volunteers. There should be 3-4 people who feel passionately about the issue who should volunteer. Then they should have twoweeks to draft a statement, about 1-3 pages long about how they feel about thesubject. During the two weeks they could privately collaborate with others for advice. After two weeks the volunteers would release their statements on adebian-debate mailing list or something. They should then have 48 hours toofficially respond to the other statements. Then it should be open floor where all the devs comment and each of the statements and rebuttals. That could lasta few days. Then the next week it starts again. (Obviously if you have twoweeks to prepare but the debate happen each week they would have to slightly stager over each other.) *These debates should not happen on IRC. If feelings are too deep out of impulse things will be said that shouldn't be said* I really believe this will allow those who feel passionately about a subject to have a voice, and allow time and contemplation so that there aren't abruptstatements that are too impulsive and not that informative. It takes time to often draft a statement that articulates your thoughts in a way that is best said. Again there could be some private collaboration. Obviously the topics should not be things like: Should Debian squash bugs?Should Devs continue to use the command line? Those are pointless. How about things like some of the main topics in the "Ubuntu" thread. How do you feel about the innovation level and direction in Debian? Whatshould stay the same, and how should things be changed? Should there be only individual maintainers of important packages or shouldthey be done in teams? Or should there be a central source that all Developerscan touch, or should maintainers have a more "you worry about your package, and me mine" attitude? Or is there a better middle ground? How well is Debian catering to the Desktop user? Should more be done, less,or are things just fine? Or maybe in some way should things be done different? I am not saying these are the best topics, but I think you get the idea. I just really feel some healthy debate would be beneficial for Debian. It wouldkeep everyone more informed on key issues, and would allow people who feelpassionately about the subject to get it out in an intellectual manner. It will also get discussion about things that really need to be discussed, but peopleare afraid to bring up because feelings run high. alfo
