Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Il dom, 2004-10-10 alle 13:57, martin f krafft ha scritto: I am sorry to have offended you, or anyone else. I should not have written back that day because I was occupied with some personal issues and let some steam off by being sarcastic. It was nothing personal, and I wish I could undo it. No problem! :) As I explained in my previous mail, I was first put off when I read about msmtp. You all have convinced me that it is in fact not Just Another, but rather a worthy addition to the Debian archive. I am sorry it took me so long, I should have checked first before writing back to the list. Thus I hope you accept my apologies. Already accepted. I would suggest not naming it an smtp plugin for mutt though because it works equally well with every other product that uses /usr/sbin/sendmail. You are right, but I think that the description could always be made in a better way. The substance was another thing, anyway. If it is of any use, I would like to offer sponsorship for the package, in the hope to make peace over the issue. Just to expiate? ;) bye Christian
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Sun, Oct 10, 2004 at 01:57:14PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: If it is of any use, I would like to offer sponsorship for the package, in the hope to make peace over the issue. The packages is available at http://ptitlouis.sysif.net/debian. For instance msmtp does not provides mail-transport-agent, i will make some test as soon as possible. I've remove the SMTP plugin in the description and replace it to something more generic. Comments about the packaging are welcome :) -- On peut aimer l'amour et mépriser l'amant. -+- Georges Farquhar (1677-1707) -+-
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sun, Oct 10, 2004: Is there a text describing the contract of packages providing mail-transport-agent? At least All MTA packages must come with a newaliases program, even if it does nothing, but older MTA packages did not do this so programs should not fail if newaliases cannot be found. (11.6). Regards, -- Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Fri, Oct 15, 2004 at 02:11:07AM +0200, Loïc Minier wrote: Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sun, Oct 10, 2004: Is there a text describing the contract of packages providing mail-transport-agent? At least All MTA packages must come with a newaliases program, even if it does nothing, but older MTA packages did not do this so programs should not fail if newaliases cannot be found. (11.6). Is it otherwise the requirement for /usr/sbin/sendmail? (in that case it is actually not an MTA but an MSA :) Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://www.eckes.org/ o--o 1024D/E383CD7E [EMAIL PROTECTED] v:+497211603874 f:+497211606754 (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Sunday 10 October 2004 14:58, Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote: On Sun, Oct 10, 2004 at 01:21:44PM +0200, Christian Surchi wrote: Il sab, 2004-10-09 alle 17:48, martin f krafft ha scritto: I think it's not a right comparison, nullmail is an MTA. and AFAIK, msmtp is not an MTA: it transports mail to the next relay, right? nullmailer is a simple relay-only mail transport agent. what's the difference? Deep difference. Our mail-transport-agents are able to behave as daemon, listening on 25 port. This is not true, since not required by policy. Policy says: The policy does not define what a MTA is, but requires that all MTA packages have newalises command although it might do nothing. IMHO a MTA must be capable acts as a client and as a server to transfer messages between machines and is responsible for properly routing messages to their destination, e.g. RFC 974. msmtp does not do all of these, therefor it is not a MTA, and might have nothing to do with /usr/sbin/sendmail. 11.6. Mail transport, delivery and user agents | (...) the interface to send a mail message is `/usr/sbin/sendmail' (as | per the FHS). Right, and that is mandated when you have a MTA with features like described above. This does not mean that telnet is a MTA when invoked like: /usr/bin/telnet mail.host.dom 25 ehlo blabla mail from: _sender_ rcpt to: _recipient_ data write some bits mail-a
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Scripsit George Danchev [EMAIL PROTECTED] IMHO a MTA must be capable acts as a client and as a server to transfer messages between machines and is responsible for properly routing messages to their destination, e.g. RFC 974. msmtp does not do all of these, therefor it is not a MTA, and might have nothing to do with /usr/sbin/sendmail. You are wrong. See nullmailer. The definition of mail-transport-agent is that it provides a /usr/sbin/sendmail that local software can use to submit emails for delivery to arbitrary addresses with some reasonable expectation that it will actually be delivered. It is *not* required that the package that provides mail-transport-agent must itself do any particular part of the delivery process, as long as its /usr/sbin/sendmail will *somehow* arrange for delivery. It would be perfectly good to have a package airgap-mailer whose /usr/sbin/sendmail will just *print* hardcopies of its input on a configured printer, with instructions to the human operator to type the email into the machine at the Internet-connected side of the air gap. This package would provide mail-transport-agent because it implements the policy-defined API for shipping email for delivery. Note that telnet does know nothing about smtp protocol. Neither does airgap-mailer. Note that a MTA isn't required to know ANYTHING about smtp. Suppose a package provides an sendmail that is an alias for 'ssh mailhub /usr/sbin/sendmail', then that package is a MTA. Such a package will require a dependency of ssh (at least) on the remote machine and you will be in a little trouble hacking your control file to satisfy things like that ;-) That is up to the system administrator to arrange. If it provides a /usr/sbin/sendmail, then it is an MTA. It does not make it any less an MTA that it requires some manual configuration before its /usr/sbin/sendmail can do anything useful with its input. Most MTA's do, actually. I think ssmtp is incorretly described as a MTA That must be because you don't understand what an MTA is. WARNING: the above is all it does; it does not receive mail, expand aliases or manage a queue. That belongs on a mail hub with a system administrator. Neither of these are necessary tasks for an MTA. -- Henning Makholm The spirits will have to knit like banshees, but with enough spirits it *can* be done!
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Monday 11 October 2004 19:18, Henning Makholm wrote: Scripsit George Danchev [EMAIL PROTECTED] IMHO a MTA must be capable acts as a client and as a server to transfer messages between machines and is responsible for properly routing messages to their destination, e.g. RFC 974. msmtp does not do all of these, therefor it is not a MTA, and might have nothing to do with /usr/sbin/sendmail. You are wrong. See nullmailer. The definition of mail-transport-agent is that it provides a /usr/sbin/sendmail that local software can use to submit emails for delivery to arbitrary addresses with some reasonable expectation that it will actually be delivered. MTA is a software talking at least one Mail Transfer Protocol (like SMTP, UUCP, X.400 ...) These Mail Transfer Agents are responsible for properly routing messages to their destination. See RFC 974 for routing messages. Obviously MTA provides /usr/sbin/sendmail, as required by the policy. It is *not* required that the package that provides mail-transport-agent must itself do any particular part of the delivery process, as long as its /usr/sbin/sendmail will *somehow* arrange for delivery. Are you talking about MDA here ;-). Delivery agents are used to place a message into a user's mail-box. When the message arrives at its destination, the final transfer agent will give the message to the appropriate delivery agent, who will add the message to the user's mail-box. OK, most MTA comes with MDA apps. It would be perfectly good to have a package airgap-mailer whose /usr/sbin/sendmail will just *print* hardcopies of its input on a configured printer, with instructions to the human operator to type the email into the machine at the Internet-connected side of the air gap. This package would provide mail-transport-agent because it implements the policy-defined API for shipping email for delivery. Such a package must talk at least one Mail Trasfer Protocol to be called MTA. Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is required but not enough to call it MTA. In the case of msmtp you can create a configuration file with your mail account(s) and tell your MUA to call msmtp instead of /usr/sbin/sendmail. msmtp has not the features of a MTA, and does not need providing /usr/sbin/sendmail. ;-) But you want it provides /usr/sbin/sendmail, to call it MTA, which is seriosly broken logic Care to explain that to its authors ? Note that telnet does know nothing about smtp protocol. Neither does airgap-mailer. Note that a MTA isn't required to know ANYTHING about smtp. Suppose a package provides an sendmail that is an alias for 'ssh mailhub /usr/sbin/sendmail', then that package is a MTA. Such a package will require a dependency of ssh (at least) on the remote machine and you will be in a little trouble hacking your control file to satisfy things like that ;-) That is up to the system administrator to arrange. If it provides a Satifying package's Depends: is in the domain of packaging system handlers. Ever seen a debian/control file friends ? You have dependencies to resolv on a remote machine... /usr/sbin/sendmail, then it is an MTA. It does not make it any less an Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is required, but not enough to call it MTA. MTA that it requires some manual configuration before its /usr/sbin/sendmail can do anything useful with its input. Most MTA's do, actually. Satifying package's Depends: is in the domain of packaging system handlers. Ever seen any debian/control ? You have dependencies to resolv on a remote machine... do not talk me about configurations ... I think ssmtp is incorretly described as a MTA That must be because you don't understand what an MTA is. beats me ;-) p.s. s/an MTA/a MTA -- pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 keyserver.bu.edu ; pgp.mit.edu fingerprint 1AE7 7C66 0A26 5BFF DF22 5D55 1C57 0C89 0E4B D0AB
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 09:00:35PM +0300, George Danchev wrote: MTA is a software talking at least one Mail Transfer Protocol (like SMTP, UUCP, X.400 ...) My example, delivering mail via 'ssh mailhub /usr/sbin/sendmail', is an example of transporting mail. These Mail Transfer Agents are responsible for properly routing messages to their destination. See RFC 974 for routing messages. Obviously MTA provides /usr/sbin/sendmail, as required by the policy. uucp doesn't do routing either, who says the MTA must do routing? Exim too can be configured to not do routing, simply drop off the mail at some other host. Such a package must talk at least one Mail Trasfer Protocol to be called MTA. You're repeating... proof by repetition? Still no backup to your statement. But you want it provides /usr/sbin/sendmail, to call it MTA, which is seriosly broken logic Care to explain that to its authors ? Simple: The Debian way for sending mail is by having a package providing 'mail-transport-agent' taking care of it. In stead of requiring users to hand-configure their MUA and all other packages sending mail, the Debian way is to have the system administrator install the preferred package providing mail-transport-agent that will get the job done, so only ONE package needs to be configured. msmtp is such a package that gets the job (making sure mail is deliverd) done. Such a package will require a dependency of ssh (at least) on the remote machine and you will be in a little trouble hacking your control file to satisfy things like that ;-) That is up to the system administrator to arrange. If it provides a Satifying package's Depends: is in the domain of packaging system handlers. Ever seen a debian/control file friends ? You have dependencies to resolv on a remote machine... Err, any webbrowser has generally a remote dependency on a http server, just like any m-t-a has (possibly indirectly). But those remote dependencies don't need to be Debian, nor is the task of Debian's package management system to care for it, this is a system administration task. /usr/sbin/sendmail, then it is an MTA. It does not make it any less an Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is required, but not enough to call it MTA. Hm, I've read that before somewhere. I think ssmtp is incorretly described as a MTA That must be because you don't understand what an MTA is. beats me ;-) Mail Transport Agent is English for Software Transporting Mail, ssmtp, nullmailer, msmtp all fall in that category. If you want to narrow this definition to have additional requirements, please backup those claims with policy/whatever. --Jeroen -- Jeroen van Wolffelaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber MSN; ICQ: 33944357) http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Scripsit George Danchev [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Monday 11 October 2004 19:18, Henning Makholm wrote: The definition of mail-transport-agent is that it provides a /usr/sbin/sendmail that local software can use to submit emails for delivery to arbitrary addresses with some reasonable expectation that it will actually be delivered. MTA is a software talking at least one Mail Transfer Protocol (like SMTP, UUCP, X.400 ...) That is not what mail-transport-agent means in Debian. It is *not* required that the package that provides mail-transport-agent must itself do any particular part of the delivery process, as long as its /usr/sbin/sendmail will *somehow* arrange for delivery. Are you talking about MDA here ;-). No. Delivery agents are used to place a message into a user's mail-box. Yes, and nullmailer (and probably msmtp) does not do that. A mail-transport-agent does not need to be a delivery agent too. Such a package must talk at least one Mail Trasfer Protocol to be called MTA. False, not for the meaning of mail-transport-agent we use in Debian. Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is required but not enough to call it MTA. Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is the necessary and sufficient condition to be a mail-transport-agent. msmtp has not the features of a MTA, As it has been explained her, msmsp has exactly the features of a mail-transport-agent. Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is required, but not enough to call it MTA
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Mon, 2004-10-11 at 19:00, George Danchev wrote: Normally I wouldn't mention it but if you're going to pull people up on their grammar please at least get it right. :-) p.s. s/an MTA/a MTA Nope. An MTA, an SOS, a UPS. It's dependent on vowel /sounds/ rather than vowels. Adam
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Monday 11 October 2004 21:30, Henning Makholm wrote: Scripsit George Danchev [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Monday 11 October 2004 19:18, Henning Makholm wrote: The definition of mail-transport-agent is that it provides a /usr/sbin/sendmail that local software can use to submit emails for delivery to arbitrary addresses with some reasonable expectation that it will actually be delivered. MTA is a software talking at least one Mail Transfer Protocol (like SMTP, UUCP, X.400 ...) That is not what mail-transport-agent means in Debian. The policy says: The mail spool is /var/mail and the interface to send a mail message is /usr/sbin/sendmail (as per the FHS). But the policy does not define what an MTA is, but uses it. So I believe here is a good definition of what Mail transfer agents (MTAs) are: http://sendmail.org/email-explained.html (read it thoroughly) All packages having 'Provides: mail-transport-agent' * talk at least one Mail Transport Protocol * but not all of them are capable of routing messages to their destination * provide /usr/sbin/sendmail Delivery agents are used to place a message into a user's mail-box. Yes, and nullmailer (and probably msmtp) does not do that. A mail-transport-agent does not need to be a delivery agent too. I've never said that mail-transport-agent does need to be a delivery agent too. Such a package must talk at least one Mail Trasfer Protocol to be called MTA. False, not for the meaning of mail-transport-agent we use in Debian. mail-trnsport-agent is a virtual package provided by packages capable of being MTA. Debian policy does not define what MTA is and does need to. # zcat virtual-package-names-list.txt.gz | grep mail-transport-agent # mail-transport-agenta mail transport agent (e.g. Smail, Sendmail, c) Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is required but not enough to call it MTA. Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is the necessary and sufficient condition to be a mail-transport-agent. msmtp has not the features of a MTA, As it has been explained her, msmsp has exactly the features of a mail-transport-agent. doesnt buy ... see above. Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is required, but not enough to call it MTA. Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is the necessary and sufficient condition to be a mail-transport-agent. again. MTA that it requires some manual configuration before its /usr/sbin/sendmail can do anything useful with its input. Most MTA's do, actually. Satifying package's Depends: is in the domain of packaging system handlers. Ever seen any debian/control ? You are talking nonsense. Inter-package dependencies are for expressing requirements on which packages must be installed on the same machine. Software running on other machines is explicitly not included. No. You are talking nonsense, because you want to install a package which provides /usr/sbin/sendmail containing: 'ssh mailhub /usr/sbin/sendmail' while having possibly bunch of dependencies to be satisfied on the remote machine... Also policy says: '/etc/aliases is the source file for the system mail aliases (e.g., postmaster, usenet, etc.), it is the one which the sysadmin and postinst scripts may edit. After /etc/aliases is edited the program or human editing it must call newaliases. All MTA packages must come with a newaliases program, even if it does nothing, but older MTA packages did not do this so programs should not fail if newaliases cannot be found.' I've read nothing from your posts about keeping these files in piece on the local and remote machine ... wont mention locking at all ... So the given example of yours is really fragile and insane. I do not buy your bending examples, as well as the definition of what an MTA is and how the debian policy interpret it because it just mandates that the interface to send a mail message is /usr/sbin/sendmail (as per the FHS) and it uses the MTA abbreviation in a common, but obvious way. That's all from me. p.s. s/an MTA/a MTA The letter M is pronounced [em], which starts with a wowel sound. Hence the proper article is an, not a. Agreed. -- pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 keyserver.bu.edu ; pgp.mit.edu fingerprint 1AE7 7C66 0A26 5BFF DF22 5D55 1C57 0C89 0E4B D0AB
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Mon, Oct 11, 2004 at 09:00:35PM +0300, George Danchev wrote: On Monday 11 October 2004 19:18, Henning Makholm wrote: That is up to the system administrator to arrange. If it provides a Satifying package's Depends: is in the domain of packaging system handlers. Ever seen a debian/control file friends ? Oh please. grep-available -FMaintainer -sPackage 'Henning Makholm' You have dependencies to resolv on a remote machine... Hint: an MTA communicates with different hosts, by definition... /usr/sbin/sendmail, then it is an MTA. It does not make it any less an Providing /usr/sbin/sendmail is required, but not enough to call it MTA. Get real. Are you suggesting it's sane for a package to *require* an SMTP server to run on the local host? As long as /usr/sbin/sendmail exists, it is command-line compatible with the 'original' sendmail, *and* is is able to get mail off the system to a different host, I'd say one can talk about an MTA. MTA that it requires some manual configuration before its /usr/sbin/sendmail can do anything useful with its input. Most MTA's do, actually. Satifying package's Depends: is in the domain of packaging system handlers. Ever seen any debian/control ? You have dependencies to resolv on a remote machine... do not talk me about configurations ... What's beyond the host is out of reach for packaging. I think ssmtp is incorretly described as a MTA That must be because you don't understand what an MTA is. beats me ;-) p.s. s/an MTA/a MTA No, an MTA. If you expand it to mail-transport-agent, you use 'a'. The abbreviation gets 'an'. -- EARTH smog | bricks AIR -- mud -- FIRE soda water | tequila WATER -- with thanks to fortune signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Sat, Oct 09, 2004 at 05:04:43PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Julien Louis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.09.1616 +0200]: msmtp is an SMTP client that can be used as an SMTP plugin for Mutt and probably other MUAs (mail user agents). It forwards mails to an SMTP server (for example at a free mail provider) which does the delivery. How does this differ from nullmailer? Why should we have Yet Another SMTP client in Debian? ssmtp seems to be its competitor, not nullmailer. (ssmtp and msmtp appear to provide /usr/bin/sendmail only, while nullmailer appears to provide port 25 only.) But otherwise it's a good question.. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Il dom, 2004-10-10 alle 01:32, Henning Makholm ha scritto: I think that msmtp simply will take the place of sendmail binary called by mutt. If it provides /usr/sbin/sendmail, then by definition it is a mail-transport-agent and should, if packaged, declare itself as such. No. If you read the first things on msmtp home page (as I did it, before writing here), you'll read that simply you must use its binary (msmtp) from mutt and not sendmail. If it provides the same functionality as /usr/sbin/sendmail but with a different command name, then somebody needs to explain why. I'm not msmtp fan or user, but I lost two minutes to read the home page trying to understand the differences. msmtp is simply a way to delivery mail to a remote smtp server. For example you cannot have it listening on 25 port, so I cannot see it as a sendmail alternative, just like nullmailer or ssmtp or other ones... bye Christian
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Il sab, 2004-10-09 alle 17:48, martin f krafft ha scritto: I think it's not a right comparison, nullmail is an MTA. and AFAIK, msmtp is not an MTA: it transports mail to the next relay, right? nullmailer is a simple relay-only mail transport agent. what's the difference? Deep difference. Our mail-transport-agents are able to behave as daemon, listening on 25 port. msmtp doesn't, and it's the same for nail. Do you think that nail could be an MTA? Do you think that any evolution of mail(1) could be seen as an MTA, only because is able to speak smtp? :o oh well, msmtp has TLS and SASL and IPv6, so I guess it is more featureful than nullmailer... They are two different projects with different targets. I think that msmtp simply will take the place of sendmail binary called by mutt. oh, and calling it a plugin make is sounds so much better. are these guys marketing specialists or software hackers? did you know about lpr? it's the mutt print plugin which may also work with other programmes. Do you know about a correct way to have a conversation with people? I don't like your attitude, I have simply exposed my idea about that program, reading its features. That's all. And I don't think that the real point of discussion could be the use of a single word. I thought we were trying to understand msmtp. I don't see any problems to change one word in long description of a debian package. bye Christian
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Christian Surchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sun, Oct 10, 2004: Deep difference. Our mail-transport-agents are able to behave as daemon, listening on 25 port. msmtp doesn't, and it's the same for nail. Do you think that nail could be an MTA? Do you think that any evolution of mail(1) could be seen as an MTA, only because is able to speak smtp? :o I think -- but I may be wrong -- that the mail-transport-agent virtual package was created to help programs using /usr/sbin/sendmail to have a depends, and programs providing /usr/sbin/sendmail to have a conflicts/replaces. If msmtp provides a compatible /usr/sbin/sendmail, it would be nice that it would also provide mail-transport-agent. What I don't think is that programs are relying on something listening on :25 when they depend on mail-transport-agent. I don't think this is the case because exim and postfix both offer a configuration where nothing listens on :25. Is there a text describing the contract of packages providing mail-transport-agent? Regards, -- Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
also sprach Christian Surchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.10.1321 +0200]: Do you know about a correct way to have a conversation with people? I don't like your attitude, I have simply exposed my idea about that program, reading its features. That's all. I am sorry to have offended you, or anyone else. I should not have written back that day because I was occupied with some personal issues and let some steam off by being sarcastic. It was nothing personal, and I wish I could undo it. As I explained in my previous mail, I was first put off when I read about msmtp. You all have convinced me that it is in fact not Just Another, but rather a worthy addition to the Debian archive. I am sorry it took me so long, I should have checked first before writing back to the list. Thus I hope you accept my apologies. I would suggest not naming it an smtp plugin for mutt though because it works equally well with every other product that uses /usr/sbin/sendmail. If it is of any use, I would like to offer sponsorship for the package, in the hope to make peace over the issue. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Sun, Oct 10, 2004 at 01:21:44PM +0200, Christian Surchi wrote: Il sab, 2004-10-09 alle 17:48, martin f krafft ha scritto: I think it's not a right comparison, nullmail is an MTA. and AFAIK, msmtp is not an MTA: it transports mail to the next relay, right? nullmailer is a simple relay-only mail transport agent. what's the difference? Deep difference. Our mail-transport-agents are able to behave as daemon, listening on 25 port. This is not true, since not required by policy. Policy says: 11.6. Mail transport, delivery and user agents | (...) the interface to send a mail message is `/usr/sbin/sendmail' (as | per the FHS). /usr/sbin/sendmail is guaranteed to work if you have mail-transport-agent, but port 25 to localhost isn't. So, any package providing /usr/sbin/sendmail, and, when correctly configured, gets mail on that interface off to the recipient, _is_ a mail-transport-agent, MTA. ssmtp is one, nullmailer is also one. Note that a MTA isn't required to know ANYTHING about smtp. Suppose a package provides an sendmail that is an alias for 'ssh mailhub /usr/sbin/sendmail', then that package is a MTA. msmtp doesn't, and it's the same for nail. Do you think that nail could be an MTA? Do you think that any evolution of mail(1) could be seen as an MTA, only because is able to speak smtp? :o mail currently is a MUA, it will communicate with sendmail, i.e., require a MTA to get its mail off. I think that msmtp simply will take the place of sendmail binary called by mutt. Then msmtp is just like any MTA, but accepts mail on a different binary (the msmtp binary in stead of sendmail), so it won't be used by any program unless specificially configured. IMHO, it'd be better if mstmp were packaged as a real MTA, providing /usr/sbin/sendmail, so that ALL programs (and not only mutt) can take advantage of it, and don't need special configuration. Then msmtp is an alternative to ssmtp and nullmailer, with a different featureset. --Jeroen -- Jeroen van Wolffelaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber MSN; ICQ: 33944357) http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
also sprach Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.10.0939 +0200]: ssmtp seems to be its competitor, not nullmailer. (ssmtp and msmtp appear to provide /usr/bin/sendmail only, while nullmailer appears to provide port 25 only.) But otherwise it's a good question.. Yes, which I would like to answer myself: I am now in favour of msmtp simply because it provides for cryptography. In the long run, I would rather like to see ssmtp and nullmailer removed in favour of msmtp, because in the long run, unencrypted SMTP should not be supported. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Sat, Oct 09, 2004 at 07:05:45PM +0300, George Danchev said oh well, msmtp has TLS and SASL and IPv6, so I guess it is more featureful than nullmailer... and much more ... also has msmtpqueue which is a pair of very simple shell scripts that allows you to queue mails and send them all at a later time (useful for dialup connections: write your mails offline and send them when you are online). Hah, so unlike things like exim and postfix... -rob -- Words of the day: VX nerve gas Firewalls Audiotel Cocaine Rule Psix Hacker
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
also sprach Rob Weir [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.10.1442 +0200]: and much more ... also has msmtpqueue which is a pair of very simple shell scripts that allows you to queue mails and send them all at a later time (useful for dialup connections: write your mails offline and send them when you are online). Hah, so unlike things like exim and postfix... It does have a merit over exim and postfix, mainly that it's designed for offline use and does not have to be configured specifically. Also, it's not as complex as exim and postfix (the debconf questions are going to be a lot easier to grok), more lightweight, and still has a nice featureset. /me wonders why he's now advocating... -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Sun, Oct 10, 2004 at 02:05:06PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.10.0939 +0200]: ssmtp seems to be its competitor, not nullmailer. (ssmtp and msmtp appear to provide /usr/bin/sendmail only, while nullmailer appears to provide port 25 only.) But otherwise it's a good question.. Yes, which I would like to answer myself: I am now in favour of msmtp simply because it provides for cryptography. In the long run, I would rather like to see ssmtp and nullmailer removed in favour of msmtp, because in the long run, unencrypted SMTP should not be supported. ssmtp seems to support SSL/TLS connections also. The package depends on libssl and a quick glance at the source shows that support is there. Looks like my description of nullmailer above was wrong. I read its description relay-only to mean that it only does relaying, ie it's an SMTP proxy of some kind. However it seems to be yet another /usr/sbin/sendmail. However it sounds like msmtp doesn't provide /usr/sbin/sendmail, so it cannot provide: mail-transport-agent, nor replace ssmtp etc. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
also sprach Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.10.1601 +0200]: ssmtp seems to support SSL/TLS connections also. The package depends on libssl and a quick glance at the source shows that support is there. What ssmtp are you talking about? cirrus:~ dpkg -p ssmtp | grep Depends Depends: libc6 (= 2.2.4-4), debconf Oh darn, I used dpkg -p and not apt-cache show and thus used the stable one. Well, does it support SASL? -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Scripsit Christian Surchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not msmtp fan or user, but I lost two minutes to read the home page trying to understand the differences. msmtp is simply a way to delivery mail to a remote smtp server. For example you cannot have it listening on 25 port, so I cannot see it as a sendmail alternative, just like nullmailer or ssmtp or other ones... Nullmailer is simply a way to deliver mail to a remote SMTP server. For example you cannot have it listening on port 25. Nevertheless it quite correctly provides mail-transport-agent, and so on. -- Henning MakholmWhat a hideous colour khaki is.
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Sun, Oct 10, 2004 at 01:57:14PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: I would suggest not naming it an smtp plugin for mutt though because it works equally well with every other product that uses /usr/sbin/sendmail. I agree with the smtp plugin for mutt removal, I will adapt the description this week and send it next weekend, because I haven't internet during week :/ If it is of any use, I would like to offer sponsorship for the package, in the hope to make peace over the issue. Thank you :) -- GUEULE DE BOIS M : J'ai passé le réveillon le plus minable de ma vie... J'étais bourré, je me suis fait sucer par un hamster... P : Tu vas le revoir ? M : Il est mort d'une indigestion...
Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: msmtp Version : 1.2.3 Upstream Author : Martin Lambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://msmtp.sourceforge.net * License : GPL Description : smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt msmtp is an SMTP client that can be used as an SMTP plugin for Mutt and probably other MUAs (mail user agents). It forwards mails to an SMTP server (for example at a free mail provider) which does the delivery. The description was taken from msmtp site. -- System Information: Debian Release: 3.1 APT prefers unstable APT policy: (990, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental') Architecture: i386 (i686) Kernel: Linux 2.6.7-1 Locale: LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=fr_FR.UTF-8
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
also sprach Julien Louis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.09.1616 +0200]: msmtp is an SMTP client that can be used as an SMTP plugin for Mutt and probably other MUAs (mail user agents). It forwards mails to an SMTP server (for example at a free mail provider) which does the delivery. How does this differ from nullmailer? Why should we have Yet Another SMTP client in Debian? Also, mutt has no concept of plugins. It just calls a script or executable to deliver the mail. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sat, Oct 09, 2004: How does this differ from nullmailer? Why should we have Yet Another SMTP client in Debian? Because it doesn't provide the same set of functionalities? A quick look at nullmailer and msmtp homepages shows that msmtp supports SASL, and that is is developed actively. The last release of nullmailer upstream is quite old now, given the path that SMTP is taking right now... If you want to send mail via SMTP with Mutt, you're likely to find yourself typing smtp client mutt in google, or apt-cache search mutt smtp, guess what you would find? ;) Regards, -- Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Il sab, 2004-10-09 alle 17:04, martin f krafft ha scritto: also sprach Julien Louis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.09.1616 +0200]: msmtp is an SMTP client that can be used as an SMTP plugin for Mutt and probably other MUAs (mail user agents). It forwards mails to an SMTP server (for example at a free mail provider) which does the delivery. How does this differ from nullmailer? Why should we have Yet Another SMTP client in Debian? I think it's not a right comparison, nullmail is an MTA. and AFAIK, msmtp is not an MTA: Also, mutt has no concept of plugins. It just calls a script or executable to deliver the mail. I think that msmtp simply will take the place of sendmail binary called by mutt. bye Christian
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
also sprach Christian Surchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.09.1730 +0200]: I think it's not a right comparison, nullmail is an MTA. and AFAIK, msmtp is not an MTA: it transports mail to the next relay, right? nullmailer is a simple relay-only mail transport agent. what's the difference? oh well, msmtp has TLS and SASL and IPv6, so I guess it is more featureful than nullmailer... I think that msmtp simply will take the place of sendmail binary called by mutt. oh, and calling it a plugin make is sounds so much better. are these guys marketing specialists or software hackers? did you know about lpr? it's the mutt print plugin which may also work with other programmes. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Saturday 09 October 2004 18:48, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Christian Surchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.09.1730 +0200]: I think it's not a right comparison, nullmail is an MTA. and AFAIK, msmtp is not an MTA: it transports mail to the next relay, right? nullmailer is a simple relay-only mail transport agent. what's the difference? the diff is that with msmtp you wont have a mta, but a mua. oh well, msmtp has TLS and SASL and IPv6, so I guess it is more featureful than nullmailer... and much more ... also has msmtpqueue which is a pair of very simple shell scripts that allows you to queue mails and send them all at a later time (useful for dialup connections: write your mails offline and send them when you are online). I think that msmtp simply will take the place of sendmail binary called by mutt. oh, and calling it a plugin make is sounds so much better. are these guys marketing specialists or software hackers? they just quoted it SMTP plugin , but I guess 'a mua backend' will be more correct in that case. did you know about lpr? it's the mutt print plugin which may also work with other programmes. having msmtp officially packaged is a good thing imho. -- pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 keyserver.bu.edu ; pgp.mit.edu fingerprint 1AE7 7C66 0A26 5BFF DF22 5D55 1C57 0C89 0E4B D0AB
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
On Sat, Oct 09, 2004 at 05:48:55PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: I think that msmtp simply will take the place of sendmail binary called by mutt. oh, and calling it a plugin make is sounds so much better. are these guys marketing specialists or software hackers? Well plugin may not be the appropriate word to define the msmtp function in mutt. But is there any *good* reason to make so much noise for just one word ? -- Vous aimez nos idées ? Vous souhaitez que le développement de MultiDeskOS continue ? N'hésitez pas ! Envoyez-nous des emails de soutien ou mieux, envoyez-nous votre soutien sur notre compte bancaire ou via la poste. -- Jayce - N'oubliez pas l'artiste ! --
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
also sprach Julien Louis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.10.09.1907 +0200]: Well plugin may not be the appropriate word to define the msmtp function in mutt. But is there any *good* reason to make so much noise for just one word ? No. But if you - are aware of the Debian archive bloat, - know of the plethora of available SMTP agents, most of which can be easily configured with debconf to be just that, a forwarding MTA, and - read a description like smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt, which not only threatens to unnecessarily bloat the archive even more, but also consists of FUD, you might understand my reaction. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sat, Oct 09, 2004: you might understand my reaction. Of course! Maybe the OP should have provided a better description, for example with a listing of features, or with reasons why the software distinguish itself from alternatives? But there's no need to get angry, and I'm sure you wasn't _really_ angry. ;) And since the OP is probably reading this, he can now fix his description, so that the package can easily be chosen when it's available in Debian. -- Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#275685: ITP: msmtp -- smtp client which can be used as a smtp plugin with mutt
Scripsit Christian Surchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] msmtp is not an MTA: I think that msmtp simply will take the place of sendmail binary called by mutt. If it provides /usr/sbin/sendmail, then by definition it is a mail-transport-agent and should, if packaged, declare itself as such. If it provides the same functionality as /usr/sbin/sendmail but with a different command name, then somebody needs to explain why. -- Henning Makholm Jeg forstår mig på at anvende sådanne midler på folks legemer, at jeg kan varme eller afkøle dem, som jeg vil, og få dem til at kaste op, hvis det er det, jeg vil, eller give afføring og meget andet af den slags.
