Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Amaya wrote / napísal(a): By creating Debian Women, we are sending out the message that it is definitely ok to be a female and and a geek, and we aim to create visibility for those female users, developers, contributors... so that they can serve as 'role models', or inspiration for other males and females who might be inteested in getting involved. Yes, the time of announcement I felt it that way. Regarding my personal webpage, it has nothing to do with Debian, so it is offtopic in this discussion. Well, it just gives different point of view on the recent incident. It is often good to learn about the people's motives when decisions are made. When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in computing? For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer. For me, the answer is quite simple. The computing is almost technical industry, and therefore it is naturally more suitable for men, who are naturally strog in technical thinking and achieving the task milestones. Just like there are much more women in people-contact positions, because women are naturally better equipped for social contact, empathy, caregiving... Althought I think it is time now, that much of technical issues are being solved or solved already, and there is need to make the computing experienca more human. A man would usually be a terrible personal assistant (secretary) or kindergarden nurse, because men are weak in paralell-tasking, where women are strong. I found these things to be natural -woman is just naturally better equipped for the household and children care, not because man poses her to that pose, but because she really CAN effectively cope with multiple tasks at time, e.q. she can cook and guard a child at the same time, with ease. Man cannot do that, or only with extreme stress. Give him three tasks, he would overburn. Other hand, it is usually harder for a woman to keep track for long-term goals, concentrate to single task, etc. You can find a paralell in some stone-age image, where man must concantrate his conciousness and strength to single task -hunt down an animal so to feed his family, although I don't believe in stone-age either :-) Admitting this knowledge, we can use our strong attributes for a great benefit, rather than suppressing the difference, that would also suppress our potential. Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
gregor herrmann wrote / napísal(a): Maybe you missed the old enough in Lisi's mail. In Austria for example equal rights between man and woman in a marriage exist only since 1975. Cf. http://www.demokratiezentrum.org/media/pdf/info_familienrecht.pdf Well, I've heard, that formally, a slavery has been cancelled just 1994 in some states of USA. There are many things people did and do wrong. Enslaving anyone if bad. Irrespectedly of gender. However, the feminism of its current shape, in countries where no discrimination is pushed on women, is making the same mistake, just in other direction. You know, apartheid has been cancelled not so long ago, and what took place then? Reversed apartheid. It is well-pictured in the Babylon 5 series, the Narn-Centauri neverending conflict. Bad for anyone, both sides just revenging the old sins, ad infinitum. Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:39:50AM +0100, Peter Tuhársky wrote: For me, the answer is quite simple. The computing is almost technical industry, and therefore it is naturally more suitable for men, who are naturally strog in technical thinking and achieving the task milestones. Just like there are much more women in people-contact positions, because women are naturally better equipped for social contact, empathy, caregiving... Althought I think it is time now, that much of technical issues are being solved or solved already, and there is need to make the computing experienca more human. This is total horseshit. It is anecdotal gender profiling that causes women and men to choose certain paths through life in the first place, and is hence one of the root causes of the very problem we're trying to solve. A man would usually be a terrible personal assistant (secretary) or kindergarden nurse, because men are weak in paralell-tasking, where women are strong. [citation needed] I found these things to be natural -woman is just naturally better equipped for the household and children care, not because man poses her to that pose, but because she really CAN effectively cope with multiple tasks at time, e.q. she can cook and guard a child at the same time, with ease. [citation needed] Man cannot do that, or only with extreme stress. Give him three tasks, he would overburn. [citation needed] Other hand, it is usually harder for a woman to keep track for long-term goals, concentrate to single task, etc. [citation needed] Admitting this knowledge, we can use our strong attributes for a great benefit, rather than suppressing the difference, that would also suppress our potential. Don't fool your self, this isn't knowledge. It's anecdotal superstition. -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:55:54AM +0100, Peter Tuhársky wrote: There are many things people did and do wrong. Enslaving anyone if bad. Irrespectedly of gender. However, the feminism of its current shape, in countries where no discrimination is pushed on women, is making the same mistake, just in other direction. You know, apartheid has been cancelled not so long ago, and what took place then? Reversed apartheid. It is well-pictured in the Babylon 5 series, the Narn-Centauri neverending conflict. Bad for anyone, both sides just revenging the old sins, ad infinitum. Wait, what? It is well-pictured in the Babylon 5 series Tell me you didn't just cite a fictional universe... -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:10:51AM +, Noah Slater wrote: On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:39:50AM +0100, Peter Tuhársky wrote: For me, the answer is quite simple. The computing is almost technical industry, and therefore it is naturally more suitable for men, who are naturally strog in technical thinking and achieving the task milestones. Just like there are much more women in people-contact positions, because women are naturally better equipped for social contact, empathy, caregiving... Althought I think it is time now, that much of technical issues are being solved or solved already, and there is need to make the computing experienca more human. It is anecdotal gender profiling that causes women and men to choose certain paths through life in the first place, and is hence one of the root causes of the very problem we're trying to solve. Interesting discussion. But as Noah mentioned elsewhere: off-topic on this list. Feel free to continue this off-list. Or maybe on debian-women (where this thread started and was actually discussed). -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Monday 29 December 2008 21:26, Tzafrir Cohen tzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote: It is anecdotal gender profiling that causes women and men to choose certain paths through life in the first place, and is hence one of the root causes of the very problem we're trying to solve. Interesting discussion. But as Noah mentioned elsewhere: off-topic on this list. Feel free to continue this off-list. Or maybe on debian-women (where this thread started and was actually discussed). http://mjg59.livejournal.com/94420.html Matthew Garrett made a good point in the above blog post: # And when you see behaviour that you think discourages others, call people on # it. Even if nobody's behaviour changes as a result, you're sending a signal # that not everyone in the community agrees. Sometimes all people want is to # know that there'll be some people on their side. While this discussion will have to end eventually it seems obvious to me that leaving a message such as the one Peter wrote without any response is not the way to do it. -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Le Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:10:51AM +, Noah Slater a écrit : [citation needed] [citation needed] [citation needed] [citation needed] Hi all, while I can not tell for debian-women, I would like to stress out that for debian-devel, what is needed is not citations but the end of this thread! PS: and if people could also stop cross-posting between debian-vote and debian-devel, I think that it would be a great progress for the usefulness of debian-devel. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
#include hallo.h * Noah Slater [Mon, Dec 29 2008, 10:13:10AM]: On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:55:54AM +0100, Peter Tuhársky wrote: There are many things people did and do wrong. Enslaving anyone if bad. Irrespectedly of gender. However, the feminism of its current shape, in countries where no discrimination is pushed on women, is making the same mistake, just in other direction. You know, apartheid has been cancelled not so long ago, and what took place then? Reversed apartheid. It is well-pictured in the Babylon 5 series, the Narn-Centauri neverending conflict. Bad for anyone, both sides just revenging the old sins, ad infinitum. Wait, what? It is well-pictured in the Babylon 5 series Tell me you didn't just cite a fictional universe... And? IIRC there is a large fan base among Debian developers including leading ones (hello Vorlon). And, after all, JMS created a good space opera reflecting many issues of today's politics and human interaction. But if you dislike SF by heart, take any real example of never ending blood feud. Regards, Eduard. -- mrvn HE: oder bist du schon ins cabal eingeschworen worden? HE mrvn: Klar. Ich musste eine Hand in die Hose stecken, eine auf ein Notebook legen und laut I agree to distribute free p0rn to our users sagen. HE Erm. Mist. Das war die Lesbian-CABAL. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
[OT] American Slavery (was Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post)
On 12/29/08 03:55, Peter Tuhársky wrote: gregor herrmann wrote / napísal(a): Maybe you missed the old enough in Lisi's mail. In Austria for example equal rights between man and woman in a marriage exist only since 1975. Cf. http://www.demokratiezentrum.org/media/pdf/info_familienrecht.pdf Well, I've heard, that formally, a slavery has been cancelled just 1994 in some states of USA. Maybe some old Jim Crow[0] laws that hadn't been enforced in 20 years. Slavery, though, has been illegal since December 1865. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA I like my women like I like my coffee - purchased at above-market rates from eco-friendly organic farming cooperatives in Latin America. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Hello. 2008/12/28 Russell Coker russ...@coker.com.au: On Sunday 28 December 2008 12:30, Всеволод Величко torkvem...@nigma.ru wrote: Did Lisi's message go to the debian-devel list? If so I didn't receive it. Maybe she sent a message to d-w and CC'd you as a courtesy. Emm, sorry, you probably misunderstood me. Initial messages, that I'm received (from Amaya and so on), has been sent: From Amaya am...@debian.org To debian-devel@lists.debian.org, debian-wo...@lists.debian.org Date 27 декабря 2008 г. 15:31 I've read them in the d-d and replied to them. So my reply has been sent also to d-w, not only to d-d. And I was speaking about that. Sorry me, if I've said it insufficiently clear. http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2008/12/threads.html The above list archive page has some of your messages, so it is not accurate to claim that you have no contact with the d-w list. Heh, I'm really not signed to the d-w list, so my messages in it are result of my reply-messages, I've told above. -- Best wishes, Velichko Vsevolod
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Всеволод Величко wrote: That message has been carbon-copied to debian-devel list. I'm not reading debian-women list. You think, this discussion should take place in d-d? I'm not sure. That was a honest mistake. I did not realize I was replying to a cross-post. If you're sending something to d-d, be ready that d-d have other rules, than d-w. As in we will not tolerate your girly crap here? I dare you to threaten me or any other female again! -- ·''`.There's no arguing with Nature. : :' :Promises comfort fools. `. `'All work and no play, makes Jack a dull boy. `- Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
I didn't get the original email of Lisi because it was not sent to d-d. 2008/12/28 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com: this topic is idiotic. For those of us who are old enough to have been officially and by law down-moted to second class citizenship when we married; by law lumped in with children, and not in with men. Bummer, please stop that bullshit. I don't know your origin, but Lisi Reisz doesn't sound like an Arabic, nor Indian, nor African name, so probably your marriage was not arranged. If it was indeed, sorry for the bullshit above. If it wasn't, what the hell are you talking??? Get a life! by law down-moted to second class citizenship when we married It was *YOUR* decision, and in the countries I am imagining you living there is parity between spouses. If it wasn't in your case, it was a wrong choice of yours. Rights for women, yes, but femminist bullshit like the above, please don't unload your personal (ex-)marriage problems on men-in-general, go to a therapist. But who are you to decide what the rest of us may or may not do? Here I agree with Lisi, you can discuss whatever you want. Best wishes Norbert --- Dr. Norbert Preining prein...@logic.atVienna University of Technology Debian Developer prein...@debian.org Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- HIBBING (n.) The marks left on the outside breast pocket of a storekeeper's overall where he has put away his pen and missed. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 09:04:24PM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: Bummer, please stop that bullshit. I don't know your origin, but Lisi Reisz doesn't sound like an Arabic, nor Indian, nor African name, so probably your marriage was not arranged. If it was indeed, sorry for the bullshit above. If it wasn't, what the hell are you talking??? Get a life! by law down-moted to second class citizenship when we married It was *YOUR* decision, and in the countries I am imagining you living there is parity between spouses. If it wasn't in your case, it was a wrong choice of yours. Rights for women, yes, but femminist bullshit like the above, please don't unload your personal (ex-)marriage problems on men-in-general, go to a therapist. But who are you to decide what the rest of us may or may not do? Here I agree with Lisi, you can discuss whatever you want. Please spare the rest of us from being subjected to your discussion and take it off list. It has nothing to do with Debian development, and I'm embarrassed to read such comments from a fellow Debian developer. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:04:24 +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
2008/12/28 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com:
this topic is idiotic. For those of us who are old enough to have
^^
been officially and by law down-moted to second class citizenship when
we married; by law lumped in with children, and not in with men.
by law down-moted to second class citizenship when we married
It was *YOUR* decision, and in the countries I am imagining you living
there is parity between spouses.
Maybe you missed the old enough in Lisi's mail.
In Austria for example equal rights between man and woman in a
marriage exist only since 1975.
Cf. http://www.demokratiezentrum.org/media/pdf/info_familienrecht.pdf
Rights for women, yes, but femminist bullshit like the above, please
don't unload your personal (ex-)marriage problems on men-in-general,
go to a therapist.
Could you please try to get back to a more civil tone? Thanks.
gregor
--
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Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
2008/12/28 Amaya am...@debian.org: Всеволод Величко wrote: If you're sending something to d-d, be ready that d-d have other rules, than d-w. As in we will not tolerate your girly crap here? I dare you to threaten me or any other female again! No, just this list is dedicated to Debian development, not for any men/women stuff. Don't find threats, where they don't exist. I hope, we'll close this discussion, after all. -- Best wishes, Velichko Vsevolod
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 09:04:24PM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: I didn't get the original email of Lisi because it was not sent to d-d. 2008/12/28 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com: this topic is idiotic. For those of us who are old enough to have been officially and by law down-moted to second class citizenship when we married; by law lumped in with children, and not in with men. Bummer, please stop that bullshit. I don't know your origin, but Lisi Reisz doesn't sound like an Arabic, nor Indian, nor African name, so probably your marriage was not arranged. If it was indeed, sorry for the bullshit above. If it wasn't, what the hell are you talking??? Get a life! CAN WE STOP THIS THREAD NOW PLEASE? This thread started off as a troll and has only got more and more absurd as time has progressed. We're so far away from sensibly discussing DEBIAN here it's becoming unintentional self-parody. Please, can people just stop replying. -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 02:31:16PM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote: On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 09:04:24PM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: Bummer, please stop that bullshit. I don't know your origin, but Lisi Reisz doesn't sound like an Arabic, nor Indian, nor African name, so probably your marriage was not arranged. If it was indeed, sorry for the bullshit above. If it wasn't, what the hell are you talking??? Get a life! by law down-moted to second class citizenship when we married It was *YOUR* decision, and in the countries I am imagining you living there is parity between spouses. If it wasn't in your case, it was a wrong choice of yours. Rights for women, yes, but femminist bullshit like the above, please don't unload your personal (ex-)marriage problems on men-in-general, go to a therapist. But who are you to decide what the rest of us may or may not do? Here I agree with Lisi, you can discuss whatever you want. Please spare the rest of us from being subjected to your discussion and take it off list. It has nothing to do with Debian development, and I'm embarrassed to read such comments from a fellow Debian developer. I never thought when I left that I'd be compelled to either a) post to -devel, or b) agree with vorlon, but here we are. AOL. Cheers, Daniel signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Peter Tuhársky wrote: Saying that, I'm glad there are women in Debian community, although I don't fully understand their effort to maintain a special Debian Women community. There is no Debian Men community I know of, and Oh! Wait! What about the men! I think you lack some perspective. Debian Men is the *default* When I joined Debian there were 4 female developers, only one was active., out of 1000 male ones. I felt weird becasue I was so much into this 'boy thing'. By creating Debian Women, we are sending out the message that it is definitely ok to be a female and and a geek, and we aim to create visibility for those female users, developers, contributors... so that they can serve as 'role models', or inspiration for other males and females who might be inteested in getting involved. Regarding my personal webpage, it has nothing to do with Debian, so it is offtopic in this discussion. The fact that I am a radical feminist has nothing to do with Debian Women. I learned about feminism a lot after Debian Women was created. My sorry attemps to get approval of our project from male developers can be found in the list archives and proof I had no idea what I was doing. When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in computing? For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer. You are right, the images there might be offensive to you as a man. I am not sorry for that, sorry :) Debian Women is a group of women, not a group of feminists. Some of us are feminists, well, get over it. If any part of my answer sounds harsh, I am sorry, I didn't intend to. I did my best over a sloppy ssh connection to be clear, but unapologetic. I blame the patriarchy for this. -- ·''`.There's no arguing with Nature. : :' :Promises comfort fools. `. `'All work and no play, makes Jack a dull boy. `- Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Hello. 2008/12/27 Amaya am...@debian.org: When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in computing? For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer. As for me, if someone is not interested in something, why he must be involved to it? E. g., Debian community has not so many members from Saint Helena island, and what does it mean? Discrimination? Something else? No, their majority probably don't use internet at all, and the rested are not interested in Debian. So why we are not accusing communtiy of discriminating Saint Helena inhabitants? :) Hopefully, no Debian members will be against women joining to Debian. But as we have no discrimination, they should satisfy all requirements put in for all candidates. No more :) You are right, the images there might be offensive to you as a man. I am not sorry for that, sorry :) Excuse me, you are against sexism, but what you mention is the same - from the opposite side. That's the same women's sexism. If we should respect women's rights, may be women should do the same? Otherwise it looks very childish, sorry. -- Best wishes, Velichko Vsevolod. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Sorry me, community, I've missed first messages in the thread firstly. I also hope, that this idiotic discussion will be closed soon. -- Best wishes, Velichko Vsevolod -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
2008/12/27 Всеволод Величко torkvem...@nigma.ru: Excuse me, you are against sexism, but what you mention is the same - from the opposite side. That's the same women's sexism. If we should respect women's rights, may be women should do the same? Otherwise it looks very childish, sorry. Something a lot of people don't understand about feminism is that it isn't symmetrical, because the situation of women and men has never been symmetrical (and biologically, never fully will). The aim of feminism is to give (at least) *political* symmetry to women with regards to men. Historically, in most parts of the world, women have been property. The notion that women are actually independent agents and not cattle is very new in western civilisation, and arguably still not firmly established in many other parts of the world (and some may argue that it's not even firmly established in certains parts of western civilisation either). Women have been politically invisible for many centuries. Whatever other oppression men may have felt, it pales in comparison to the oppression women have felt, which has always been at least as bad as what men suffer but is further compounded by many other factors. As for Amaya's website, sure, it looks like she favours pins of a radical feminist variety, of the I'm not going to shut up and take it kind of feminism, but I don't see her advocating violence towards men, that men should be raped, that men should lose the right to vote, that men should not own property, that men should be sexually harrassed at all times in the streets, that men are naturally unable to perform any intellectual or physical task, shouldn't be educated, nor participate in the public sphere. These are all things that historically happened to women everywhere all the time, and still happen in many places, in many ways. You may not feel as a man that you are perpetrating any of these things (and are you sure you are not?), but bear in mind that these are the kinds of issues that feminism is trying to fight against. If she were to advocate any of those things, then I say that (her brand of) feminism would be more symmetrical to patriarchy. She does, however, say some things that may make some people uncomfortable. I believe she's doing this because she's taking the bottom right path in my handy online politeness decision flowchart: http://platinum.linux.pl/~jordi/piccies/posting.png Furthermore, I agree that it's her own personal website, and largely irrelevant to the Debian project. I also hope, that this idiotic discussion will be closed soon. Which idiotic discussion? I think we have a bigger problem in that we *have* lost at least one member of d-women, over other problems Debian has had. I am preparing a response to this that I will soon share with the other members of the Debian community. This isn't the first time something of this sort happens within the project. I'm remembering a post about something that happened in #debian-offtopic in Freenode not so long ago: http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-wo...@lists.debian.org/msg03320.html I think we do need a code of conduct, sanctioned by the leadership of the community, else risk further loss of cohesion within the community. - Jordi G. H.
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
2008/12/27 Всеволод Величко torkvem...@nigma.ru: 2008/12/27 Amaya am...@debian.org: When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in computing? For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer. As for me, if someone is not interested in something, why he must be involved to it? E. g., Debian community has not so many members from Saint Helena island, and what does it mean? Discrimination? Something else? No, their majority probably don't use internet at all, and the rested are not interested in Debian. The total population of Saint Helena is significantly smaller (5000 people) than the total population of women in countries in which Debian is used (and where internet access is readily available, etc), so your comparison is not a fair one. So why we are not accusing communtiy of discriminating Saint Helena inhabitants? :) I think that if a Debian developer posted an off-topic message to the mailing list in which people from Saint Helena were talked about in a derogatory fashion, it would be reasonable for that to be regarded as discriminatory, especially if the OP was unrepentant. Hopefully, no Debian members will be against women joining to Debian. But as we have no discrimination, they should satisfy all requirements put in for all candidates. No more :) FWIW, I agree, as long as the we have no discrimination statement is a promise that is kept. Regards, Sam PS. [OT] If you are unfamiliar with the general arguments in favour of having a women's movement even where a nominally equivalent men's movement does not exist - in this case, for having a debian women group even if there is no debian men group - you may find it useful to read Germaine Greer's The Female Eunuch, which is widely available[1]. Besides, it's an important book and IMHO worth reading because of its historical significance, even if you don't like it (although I do like it). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/ISBN_0-374-52762-8
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Sunday 28 December 2008 09:24, Sam Kuper sam.ku...@uclmail.net wrote: I think that if a Debian developer posted an off-topic message to the mailing list in which people from Saint Helena were talked about in a derogatory fashion, it would be reasonable for that to be regarded as discriminatory, especially if the OP was unrepentant. As an aside, I recall that one DD quit after a heated discussion of the status of a certain geographic region. To avoid rehashing that discussion I won't mention the region or the DD. The trigger for that dispute was a valid discussion about localisation. -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Sunday 28 December 2008 08:06, Всеволод Величко torkvem...@nigma.ru wrote: You are right, the images there might be offensive to you as a man. I am not sorry for that, sorry :) Excuse me, you are against sexism, but what you mention is the same - from the opposite side. That's the same women's sexism. If we should respect women's rights, may be women should do the same? Otherwise it looks very childish, sorry. In the message you replied to and in all the other messages of Amaya's that I have read I have not seen anything which could reasonably be interpreted as sexism or discrimination against any other group. The pictures from Amaya's site which were previously cited in this thread did not offend me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole Some of the pins had exaggerated slogans which are used for rhetorical effect (see the Wikipedia page on hyperbole). Attending a political rally wearing a pin saying I'm mildly opposed to ... would not be effective. -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Amaya wrote: Peter Tuhársky wrote: Saying that, I'm glad there are women in Debian community, although I don't fully understand their effort to maintain a special Debian Women community. There is no Debian Men community I know of, and Oh! Wait! What about the men! I think you lack some perspective. Debian Men is the *default* When I joined Debian there were 4 female developers, only one was active., out of 1000 male ones. I felt weird becasue I was so much into this 'boy thing'. By creating Debian Women, we are sending out the message that it is definitely ok to be a female and and a geek, and we aim to create visibility for those female users, developers, contributors... so that they can serve as 'role models', or inspiration for other males and females who might be inteested in getting involved. Regarding my personal webpage, it has nothing to do with Debian, so it is offtopic in this discussion. The fact that I am a radical feminist has nothing to do with Debian Women. I learned about feminism a lot after Debian Women was created. My sorry attemps to get approval of our project from male developers can be found in the list archives and proof I had no idea what I was doing. When I reflected upon my need for approval, I also found my answer to the one million dollars question: Why are there so few women in computing? For me, the patriachy is an acceptable answer. Find your own, it is an enlightment trip, and you do not need to aome to my same answer. You are right, the images there might be offensive to you as a man. I am not sorry for that, sorry :) Debian Women is a group of women, not a group of feminists. Some of us are feminists, well, get over it. If any part of my answer sounds harsh, I am sorry, I didn't intend to. I did my best over a sloppy ssh connection to be clear, but unapologetic. I blame the patriarchy for this. From: http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html Pioneering Women of Computing * *Ada Byron King, Countess of Lovelace (1815-1852)* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/ada-lovelace.html * *Edith Clarke (1883-1959)* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Edith%20Clarke * *Rósa Péter (1905-1977)* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Rosa%20Peter * *Grace Murray Hopper (1906-1992)* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Grace%20Hopper * *Alexandra Illmer Forsythe (1918-1980)* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Alexandra%20Illmer%20Forsythe * *Evelyn Boyd Granville* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Evelyn%20Granville * *Margaret R. Fox* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Margaret%20R.%20Fox * *Erna Schneider Hoover* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Erna%20Schneider%20Hoover * *Kay McNulty Mauchly Antonelli* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Kay%20Mauchly * *Alice Burks* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Alice%20Burks * *Adele Goldstine* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Adele%20Goldstine * *Joan Margaret Winters* http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html#Joan%20Margaret%20Winters No, women never did anything significant with computers. Why didn't this lady stay in the kitchen?? Physics is such a 'guy thing'. From Wikipedia: *Marie Skłodowska–Curie* (7 November 1867 – 4 July 1934) was a physicist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicist and chemist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemist of Polish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland upbringing and, subsequently, French http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France citizenship. She was a pioneer in the field of radioactivity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactivity, the only person honored with Nobel Prizes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize in two different sciences,^[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Curie#cite_note-0 and the first female professor at the University of Paris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Paris. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
This one time, at band camp, Michael D. Norwick said: Amaya wrote: Peter Tuhársky wrote: Saying that, I'm glad there are women in Debian community, although I don't fully understand their effort to maintain a special Debian Women community. There is no Debian Men community I know of, and Oh! Wait! What about the men! I think you lack some perspective. Debian Men is the *default* When I joined Debian there were 4 female developers, only one was active., out of 1000 male ones. I felt weird becasue I was so much into this 'boy thing'. From: http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/tap/past-women-cs.html Pioneering Women of Computing No, women never did anything significant with computers. You understand that arguing that computer science is not currently predominantly male because there are notable women in the field is not just wrong, but patently silly, right? -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :sg...@debian.org | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Hello. 2008/12/28 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com: You would appear to be a man. If that is inaccurate, I apologise. But this is, as you point out, a _women's_ list. We have a right to discus what we choose to discuss. But I refute your allegation that this topic is idiotic. For those of us who are old enough to have been officially and by law down-moted to second class citizenship when we married; by law lumped in with children, and not in with men. That message has been carbon-copied to debian-devel list. I'm not reading debian-women list. You think, this discussion should take place in d-d? I'm not sure. This discussion is not idiotic. The issues it raises are improving, but are at the crux of a woman's existence. Indeed, your email seems to me to embody much of what I object to. If you choose to belong to a women's list, you have to accept that you may not like everything that every woman says. But who are you to decide what the rest of us may or may not do? Yes, I've already answered it. I have no contact with d-w list. If you're sending something to d-d, be ready that d-d have other rules, than d-w. -- Best wishes, Velichko Vsevolod -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Sunday 28 December 2008 12:30, Всеволод Величко torkvem...@nigma.ru wrote: That message has been carbon-copied to debian-devel list. I'm not reading debian-women list. You think, this discussion should take place in d-d? I'm not sure. Did Lisi's message go to the debian-devel list? If so I didn't receive it. Maybe she sent a message to d-w and CC'd you as a courtesy. If you choose to belong to a women's list, you have to accept that you may not like everything that every woman says. But who are you to decide what the rest of us may or may not do? Yes, I've already answered it. I have no contact with d-w list. If you're sending something to d-d, be ready that d-d have other rules, than d-w. http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2008/12/threads.html The above list archive page has some of your messages, so it is not accurate to claim that you have no contact with the d-w list. -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
I am not a dev or woman but I believe that sexism,racism and any other ism you want to add is wrong and should be dealt with accordingly and swiftly. I fully agree. And I don't like anyone to insult others, NO MATTER THE GENDER! I have read the incriminating mail and I don't found anything clearly offensive there, as far as I don't find anything worthy in it at all, although I appreciate the author to try to share at least a bit of humor with others. Well, some individuals couldn't bear such a humor, I personally have not been amazed anyhow, that's pitty, but I don't find any intention to offend anyone in the original corpus delicti. The reaction was unnecessarily hard and there is much wonder about it in the community. Saying that, I'm glad there are women in Debian community, although I don't fully understand their effort to maintain a special Debian Women community. There is no Debian Men community I know of, and probably noone find enough time or reasons worthy of the efforts to create it. However, if the women feel better having such a community, that won't hurt me anyhow. As of the overwhelming reaction to the mail, I can partially understand the reaction, when I look at Amayita website. http://www.amayita.com/img/feminist3.jpg http://www.amayita.com/img/feminist_00.jpg http://www.amayita.com/img/feminist_03.jpg http://www.amayita.com/img/feminist_01.jpg http://www.amayita.com/img/feminist_14.jpg http://www.amayita.com/img/feminist_17.jpg and so on. I think that could tell something, and me personally, I found these materials to be highly SEXISTIC and OFFENSIVE for me being a man. Cite: I'm castrating bitch the future is female a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle women make policy not coffee vote for woman powerful woman! woman power man hatin', ball breakin', hairy legged feminist sexism is social disease -Yes! Exactly. Now, imagine I would put something similar on web, but in different context: vote for man, the future is male, powerful man, men make policy not coffee etc. Wouldn't the feminists sue me instantly? I think the society is just TOO tolerant to female shovinism. Or it dosen't care enough about that. Ladies, just please accept that the FREEDOM IS EQUAL for male and female. I, being a man, don't think, that men are generally anyhow higher nor better than women. And equally You, women, are generally not any way higher nor better than men. If You feel it otherwise, then You're attacking the very equality You call for. Else the word equality itself means something different for me than it means for You. Both men and women have their natural strong and weak points, and it's way better to try to complement and learn how to live with it, than to blame and attack others. Or what about this: http://www.amayita.com/img/feminist_14.jpg 5 million women still starve themselves to look beautiful Well, that's sad. I don't like the popculture too. Now, blame men for that, or whatever? I'll end with http://www.amayita.com/img/feminist_21.jpg Yes. Please, try to be like that. Powerful, compassionate, balanced. Attacking others can not help You with that. And please, Debian community, please, keep out from american social identity problems. Peter John Wiggles wrote / napísal(a): Shame on the Debian Project leaders for not coming out against these people who think that making jokes that degrade,insult and basically hurt the feelings of other HUMAN beings who work hard for FREE so we can all have a great operating system. My feelings are hurt for the women of and the men who don't feel like these...let's just say it, STUPID LITTLE MINDED PEOPLE! Ladies you have my support. Any way I can help just let me know. John Chiazzese a.k.a. IdleOne -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Mon, 22 Dec 2008, Peter Tuhársky wrote: I fully agree. And I don't like anyone to insult others, NO MATTER THE GENDER! I think there was just a troll alarm and there is no need to further blur debian-devel list. If anybody fails to give a clear reason why his mail is relevant for debian-devel, please find another place to discuss your point. My point for posting this mail here is to get back a working mailing list for issues to related to Lenny release. Many thanks for your understanding Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Peter Tuhársky dijo [Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 03:01:04PM +0100]: As of the overwhelming reaction to the mail, I can partially understand the reaction, when I look at Amayita website. Ok... This is just one more evidence of the trollness of this thread. Do you have an issue with Amaya? Many people in this project -me included- hold her in very high esteem, personally and professionally. Still, you are not reporting about content in http://people.debian.org/~amaya or http://amaya.debian.net/ - It is her domain, hosted with her own resources, and in no way endorsed or OK'ed by the Debian project. Still, if having no Debian connection makes you think she will not be supported by her many Debian friends... you are way off. So, please, troll somewhere else. Not only is she completely free to post whatever she wants on her own server and homepage, she is also more than able to defend herself. And still, many people are willing to shut you up in her behalf. -- Gunnar Wolf - gw...@gwolf.org - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 03:01:04PM +0100, Peter Tuhársky wrote: Amayita [snip] american social identity problems. FAIL. Neil -- A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li B345BDD3 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Mo, 22 Dez 2008, Noah Slater wrote: Troll. Troll. Troll. I hope that's not referring to John's email. Are you kidding? I agree with the OP, that was not trolling, that was just getting things straight. Women are also sexists, often! Best wishes Norbert --- Dr. Norbert Preining prein...@logic.atVienna University of Technology Debian Developer prein...@debian.org Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- LOWESTOFT (n.) (a) The balls of wool which collect on nice new sweaters. (b) The correct name for 'navel fluff'. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 06:57:28PM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: I agree with the OP, that was not trolling, that was just getting things straight. Please explain how this has anything to do with Debian development; in private preferably, so we can close this absurd thread now. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
Troll. Troll. Troll. -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
2008/12/22 Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org: Troll. Troll. Troll. I hope that's not referring to John's email. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian women may leave due to 'sexist' post
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 05:59:30AM +, Sam Kuper wrote: 2008/12/22 Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org: Troll. Troll. Troll. I hope that's not referring to John's email. Are you kidding? On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:36:05PM -0500, John Wiggles wrote: I am not a dev or woman but I believe that sexism,racism and any other ism you want to add is wrong and should be dealt with accordingly and swiftly. This implies that someone disagrees with him. Shame on the Debian Project leaders Pointing his finger to individuals. for not coming out against these people who think that making jokes that degrade,insult Opening old discussions, with no context. Unnecessary. and basically hurt the feelings of other HUMAN beings who work hard for FREE so we can all have a great operating system. Needlessly emotive, we all know this. My feelings are hurt for the women of and the men who don't feel like these...let's just say it, STUPID LITTLE MINDED PEOPLE! Stupid little minded people? Oh come on. Intentional inflammation. The whole email was uncalled for, and I believe purposefully designed to re-ignite the biter flame wars and arguments that have been tearing apart these lists for the past couple of months. We've been through all of this, and we have important work to be concentrating on. -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
