Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On 25 Jun 1998, Martin Mitchell wrote: Sorry for the delayed reply, I've been away a few days. Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 17 Jun 1998, Martin Mitchell wrote: Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did you use X and x as declared on the help screen? These are the vi delete keys, and the cursor is moved left (backspace?) with the h key. All of this is on the help screen. If you don't see it there, there is no guarantee that it will do what you expect. I did successfully edit using the standard vi keys, but the backspace works in any vi, and it should be supported in the 'vi-mode' of ae. This is one of the few remaining problems that are glaringly apparent when using ae in vi-mode. I can certainly add it back into the keybindings, but it will behave slightly different in an xterm. I can't make an xterm treat backspace any different from del (they both do a right delete, if I remember correctly) How about the arrow keys. I can make them work on a console and in an xterm, although not from a tty. I'm trying to provide constructive criticism, that can help improve ae. And I appreciate that. I realize you've faced some rather harsh criticism in the past, however I think this was due to the particularly annoying nature of some of the bugs that have now been fixed. (eg not being able to quit in vi-mode) Yes, it has been a bit frustrating that folks can't seem to get over the past difficulties. Reminds me of my Mom, who would keep lists (in her head) of everything my Dad had ever done wrong, and would go over the list at the least opportunity. When the necessary keys are properly configured, ae is a nice little editor that serves the needs of the installation environment. Why anyone would continue to use it, instead of one of the other, more virsatile editors provided in standard, is beyond my comprehension ;-) The part of the changelog that should have been in that release was missing through my error as well. (how do you fix bugs in a changelog?) Add them in a subsequent version, with an explanatory note as to which version they were fixed in. My choices are to junk the whole concept, and force all you with vi programmed fingers to use ae instead, or to continue with the poor functionality emulation I have, in hopes that someone will figure out how to improve it. I'm appreciative of all that has been done, and I only have 3 requests for future releases: 1) Fix backspace to act as expected when editing text. To some limits, I can do this. 2) Fix displaying default option at command prompts, eg File not saved. Quit (y/n) ? n^H after typing :q This is a known slang bug, and we have our best men working on it ;-) 3) Remove old /etc/ae2vi.rc file if it exists, to avoid confusion. Yes, this is a detail that dpkg should be able to deal with, but on an upgrade it doesn't want to remove such files, even though they do not exist, or have been moved, in the new replacement package. I can deal with this in the post install. Thanks for reminding me that this bit of fluff is still under the bed. Waiting is, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Sorry for the delayed reply, I've been away a few days. Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 17 Jun 1998, Martin Mitchell wrote: Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is the old .rc file, left behind by a dpkg artifact during the upgrade. While future versions of ae will be able to remove this file, I don't see Brian letting it into hamm, but as it is only useful in this mode during an install, everything will work fine. I tried it again, as you advised, and noticed that it actually was possible to edit and quit. Mind you, backspace seemed non-functional, but I notice a bug has recently been filed about that. IMO that is a release critical bug, if you can find a fix quickly. Did you use X and x as declared on the help screen? These are the vi delete keys, and the cursor is moved left (backspace?) with the h key. All of this is on the help screen. If you don't see it there, there is no guarantee that it will do what you expect. I did successfully edit using the standard vi keys, but the backspace works in any vi, and it should be supported in the 'vi-mode' of ae. This is one of the few remaining problems that are glaringly apparent when using ae in vi-mode. Sorry, I didn't know I was using the old config file. And I did read the changelog, contrary what you said in your irate private message to me, and it never said the conffile had been moved: Guilty on both counts. Sorry for the irateness of my last posting. I was just tired of hearing all the false (or historical, depending on your point of view) information being spread about an editor that I have worked hard to bring to the table in a form that can be used in the broadest context. Yes ae had a bad run of development getting used to slang, but that is history, so lets keep to the facts. On top of all that, the discussion has continued to cover other editors, as though they were real alternatives in this case. I'm trying to provide constructive criticism, that can help improve ae. I realize you've faced some rather harsh criticism in the past, however I think this was due to the particularly annoying nature of some of the bugs that have now been fixed. (eg not being able to quit in vi-mode) The part of the changelog that should have been in that release was missing through my error as well. (how do you fix bugs in a changelog?) Add them in a subsequent version, with an explanatory note as to which version they were fixed in. My choices are to junk the whole concept, and force all you with vi programmed fingers to use ae instead, or to continue with the poor functionality emulation I have, in hopes that someone will figure out how to improve it. I'm appreciative of all that has been done, and I only have 3 requests for future releases: 1) Fix backspace to act as expected when editing text. 2) Fix displaying default option at command prompts, eg File not saved. Quit (y/n) ? n^H after typing :q 3) Remove old /etc/ae2vi.rc file if it exists, to avoid confusion. Martin. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
if you all do not stop this discussion i start writing an editor. easy to use just as EDIT.EXE. for anybody, especially a beginner. also for professionals. :wq -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
* Michael Dietrich (Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 04:31:52AM +0200) if you all do not stop this discussion i start writing an editor. easy to use just as EDIT.EXE. for anybody, especially a beginner. also for professionals. :wq Go ahead, it wouldn't hurt, would it? :-) -- SSM - Stig Sandbeck Mathisen Trust the Computer, the Computer is your Friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Stig Sandbeck Mathisen wrote: * Michael Dietrich (Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 04:31:52AM +0200) if you all do not stop this discussion i start writing an editor. easy to use just as EDIT.EXE. for anybody, especially a beginner. also for professionals. :wq Go ahead, it wouldn't hurt, would it? :-) dosemu + edit.exe ... works for me (C: Regards Ray (Darksun - irc.debian.org#debian ) Why are you movin From one country to another to find peace? The sea of peace is just inside Your mind's silence-sky. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
if you all do not stop this discussion i start writing an editor. easy to use just as EDIT.EXE. for anybody, especially a beginner. also for professionals. :wq Go ahead, it wouldn't hurt, would it? :-) OK, i would start if everybody promisses to stop the discussion if or if not a beginner has to tamper around with vi. -- see header -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 09:30:17AM -0400, Ray Kinsella wrote: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Stig Sandbeck Mathisen wrote: * Michael Dietrich (Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 04:31:52AM +0200) if you all do not stop this discussion i start writing an editor. easy to use just as EDIT.EXE. for anybody, especially a beginner. also for professionals. :wq Go ahead, it wouldn't hurt, would it? :-) dosemu + edit.exe ... works for me (C: LOL!...ok... YOU try and fit that on a boot/rescue disk along with all of the other stuff that the disk needs. :) -Steve -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Igor Grobman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Some time around Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:07:24 +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: elvis-tiny is small enough to fit on too (although that may have changed now that we use slang rather than ncurses - can elvis-tiny use slang??) and provides a decent editor for people who can't/won't use crap. With all these elvis-tiny discussions, I have to remind everyone that elvis is non-free. Technically, it shouldn't even be present in the base system (is it still?). No. elvis is non-free; elvis-tiny is not. Look at the copyright files. AIUI elvis-tiny is a much earlier version of elvis which was still free. Or something. Of course the copyright files may be ``inaccurate'', I'm disillusioned enough to realise that's a very real possibility these days. -- James ~Yawn And Walk North~ http://yawn.nocrew.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Some time around Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:07:24 +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: elvis-tiny is small enough to fit on too (although that may have changed now that we use slang rather than ncurses - can elvis-tiny use slang??) and provides a decent editor for people who can't/won't use crap. With all these elvis-tiny discussions, I have to remind everyone that elvis is non-free. Technically, it shouldn't even be present in the base system (is it still?). By having elvis-tiny in base, we are again being hypocritical about our free software stand. Of course, I might be wrong, and the copyright could have been changed now, but the latest hamm package that I have installed still has the old copyright. -- Proudly running Debian Linux! Linux vs. Windows is a no-Win situation Igor Grobman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On 15 Jun 1998, Martin Mitchell wrote: Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, but note that the current version of ae fixes a lot of these problems. [I found this out while attempting to verify some of my gripes about ae.] Is it just me, or does the vi mode in the current version of ae not work at all? I tried ae -f /etc/ae2vi.rc tst and could not even quit with :q, I had to switch consoles and kill it. i've 'discovered' this several times when booting linux emergency or linux single at the LILO promptunless you remember to run 'open' a few times to get some more virtual consoles, the only way out is to push the reset button. not a good thing to do to a system. the fact is that ae is easy for some people so it should be on the rescue disk (even though it sucks badly - personally, i find it difficult and clumsy to use, and won't use it for anything). joe is a nice easy editor but is much too big. i'd prefer joe on the rescue disk but it won't fit. elvis-tiny is small enough to fit on too (although that may have changed now that we use slang rather than ncurses - can elvis-tiny use slang??) and provides a decent editor for people who can't/won't use crap. Perhaps much of this discussion could be solved if ae managed vi keybindings a little better. Martin. P.S. This test was using ae version 962-20. -- craig sanders -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On 15 Jun 1998, Martin Mitchell wrote: Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, but note that the current version of ae fixes a lot of these problems. [I found this out while attempting to verify some of my gripes about ae.] Is it just me, or does the vi mode in the current version of ae not work at all? I tried ae -f /etc/ae2vi.rc tst This is the old .rc file, left behind by a dpkg artifact during the upgrade. While future versions of ae will be able to remove this file, I don't see Brian letting it into hamm, but as it is only useful in this mode during an install, everything will work fine. and could not even quit with :q, I had to switch consoles and kill it. Perhaps much of this discussion could be solved if ae managed vi keybindings a little better. Martin. P.S. This test was using ae version 962-20. You used the -20 code with the -15 .rc file. Try it again using: ae -f /etc/ae/ae2vi.rc tst and you will have better results. (It's not great, mind you, just better) Luck, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
This is the old .rc file, left behind by a dpkg artifact during the
upgrade. While future versions of ae will be able to remove this file, I
don't see Brian letting it into hamm, but as it is only useful in this
mode during an install, everything will work fine.
I tried it again, as you advised, and noticed that it actually was possible
to edit and quit. Mind you, backspace seemed non-functional, but I notice
a bug has recently been filed about that. IMO that is a release critical
bug, if you can find a fix quickly.
Sorry, I didn't know I was using the old config file. And I did read the
changelog, contrary what you said in your irate private message to me,
and it never said the conffile had been moved:
ae (962-20) frozen unstable; urgency=low
* fixed /bin/vi shell script to handle both quoted file names
* and the lack of any arguments using the ${1+$@}
* construct suggested by Richard Braakman: fixes 20415
* also fixed inverted logic in same shell script.
-- Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat, 23 May 1998 15:19:56 -0400
ae (962-19) frozen unstable; urgency=high
* rebuilt ae.rc to provide emacs keybindings
* provides full functionality on terminals without function keys.
* new keybindings remove the problem with ^O (file write)
* when used under Midnight Commander, which caused ae to abort.
-- Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu, 14 May 1998 16:18:06 -0400
ae (962-18) frozen unstable; urgency=high
* rebuilt ae.rc for both console and xterm keys:
* fixes 4755, 16508, 17107, and 20749
* rebuilt ae2vi.rc and ae2vix.rc to supply vi in console and xterm:
* fixes 8350, 17086, 17757, 17794, 21266, and 21649
* modified ae.rc to provide control keys for use over telnet:
* fixes 20439
* applied Jim Mintha's CR patch to key.c: fixes 18581
* applied Jim Mintha's slang colors patch: fixes 21267
* add .gz extention to slave manpage: fixes 21165
* remove substvars and files from debian/ : fixes 21276
-- Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun, 10 May 1998 14:16:34 -0400
ae (962-17) unstable; urgency=high
* changed package from ncurses to slang for the boot floppies
-- Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:56:01 -0500
(that's all the changelog entries for this year)
Martin.
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Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On 17 Jun 1998, Martin Mitchell wrote: Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is the old .rc file, left behind by a dpkg artifact during the upgrade. While future versions of ae will be able to remove this file, I don't see Brian letting it into hamm, but as it is only useful in this mode during an install, everything will work fine. I tried it again, as you advised, and noticed that it actually was possible to edit and quit. Mind you, backspace seemed non-functional, but I notice a bug has recently been filed about that. IMO that is a release critical bug, if you can find a fix quickly. Did you use X and x as declared on the help screen? These are the vi delete keys, and the cursor is moved left (backspace?) with the h key. All of this is on the help screen. If you don't see it there, there is no guarantee that it will do what you expect. If you want an editor where all of the keys that you find on your keyboard do the things you expect, the type ae and don't use the vi emulator .rc file. This .rc file was created with help from James Mintha and covers all the arrow keys and other expected keys while providing a set of keybindings that can be used in any environment. Sorry, I didn't know I was using the old config file. And I did read the changelog, contrary what you said in your irate private message to me, and it never said the conffile had been moved: Guilty on both counts. Sorry for the irateness of my last posting. I was just tired of hearing all the false (or historical, depending on your point of view) information being spread about an editor that I have worked hard to bring to the table in a form that can be used in the broadest context. Yes ae had a bad run of development getting used to slang, but that is history, so lets keep to the facts. On top of all that, the discussion has continued to cover other editors, as though they were real alternatives in this case. The part of the changelog that should have been in that release was missing through my error as well. (how do you fix bugs in a changelog?) AE now has three supported configurations, and policy declares that multiple config files should get their own directory. For upstream code reasons, I chose not to change the location of the default .rc file, and this one is still in /etc. Two of those files are for the vi emulation. Early on in the slang development process, I was so disapointed in this emulation that I was ready to just remove it completely. I did not write this implimentation but I was able to recover it to its original functionality, only with careful considerations of the xterm problem. My choices are to junk the whole concept, and force all you with vi programmed fingers to use ae instead, or to continue with the poor functionality emulation I have, in hopes that someone will figure out how to improve it. Waiting is, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Absolute novices unwilling to learn should be lead gently to the nearest windows box. How about something like: [..] This editor has two modes, in Input mode you may enter text, in Command mode you may alter previously entered text. To enter input mode from command mode, hit i To enter command mode from input mode, hit ESC it's safe to hit ESC while in command mode [ESC means the escape key, ENTER means the enter key] do you really think an absolute novice would understand why he or she should press j or k and not those fancy key with the arrows with the correct direction instead and that those key should won't insert those letters printed on them into the text? please come down from your trip. stop this thread. it's nasty. important is which editor to use instead. i think even ae is to cryptic to use. just to be shure: i'm an absolute fan of vim. use it every day write even html with it instead of using an wordprocessor. so get to a productive discussion now, please. -- see header -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 03:08:15PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote: Remember that we're talking theory here, even elvis-tiny is currently bigger than ae, and space is cramped on the rescue disk. How about gzexe? Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Michael Dietrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: do you really think an absolute novice would understand why he or she should press j or k and not those fancy key with the arrows with the correct direction instead and that those key should won't insert those letters printed on them into the text? Er.. you mean the enter key, or the tab key? Or maybe you mean like the 8, 4, 2 and 6 keys? Or maybe you mean this unlabeled key just above the enter key -- it has an arrow on it? I guess the only way to find out is by asking some absolute novices. But you have to wonder what such a person would do with an editor, once he found it. [Follow the documentation you say? With all those complicated letters of the alphabet in it? And we're not even getting into file syntax...] More seriously, I'm not suggesting this go into hamm. It would require a code change for elvis-tiny, and though it's a simple change, this just isn't the kind of change that's worth doing this close to release. It's too close to our core needs. Nor am I suggesting it go into slink, if there's not enough room on the release disk. Having enough space is crucial. I wouldn't object to seeing it on an alternate rescue disk series, though, if someone wanted to play with it. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 10:27:52AM -0400, Z-Y [Jerry] wrote: greet all, I am no guru. But let's stop this war! yes...wars are unproductive..and in the case of this type of war doesn't even have the benefit of getting rid of some people off the planet. To me, choice of editor depends on your experience, skill and task on hand. I use vi and my boss at work uses emacs. We both like our own choice very much and enjoy the way our choice works for us. But we never try to convert each other, fortunately. I agree tottally. Personally..my favoprite editor right now is ee. I use it all the time. It is not that I am Unwilling to learn, in fact I love to learn, its just I feel that using an editor isn't something that I should need to learn. Some people like emacs (I used to love it...don't use it as much now), some like ae, some like ee, some like vi (I usually call those people masochists... but only in fun ;) ) as for the base...I agree with the point of using ae or ee or some such simple editor. Make it easy for people comming from windows to get started if they wish to learn vi later..so be it, but not everyone can just Pick up vi and run with it like some of the other editors. For the experience of being converted to something else, if you are a buddist, try being converted by a Christian or vice versa. If you don't believe in any form of god, you are free to choose one or create your own:-) hmm nice point. Tried Chrstian, didn't fit me..now im in that 3rd group... did try creating my own...didn't work out. I only have 2 followers now.. and they aren't very good ones. Actually...maybe wiseass is a better term than Follower or Worshipper have a peaceful sunday. too late for that...oh well... Jerry On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Raul Miller wrote: Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most features? *VI*? or you mean XEmacs? Since when has vi been an editor with features? ;-) The biggest advantage of vi over xemacs is that vi is easier on the wrists. For example, vi's . command (repeat last command which changed the text) is something that doesn't make much sense in the xemacs environment (because you can always type ^x( command ^x) then ^x^e..., and a command to replace . would be about as many keystrokes). At one point, I almost had to give up programming because my wrists hurt so bad. Switching to vi from emacs (and taking better care of myself) mostly solved that. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] YU, Zhongbin (Jerry) In Nature I believe:-) - M.S. in CIS | M.S. in Chemistry [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~zyu RA w/ Dr. Ramesh | Tel: (404)251-9072 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** Stephen Carpenter ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** Maturity is often more absurd than youth and very frequently is most unjust to youth -- Thomas Edison pgpaSTunnM56n.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Manoj Srivastava writes: Absolute novices unwilling to learn should be lead gently to the nearest windows box. As I see it, it's not a matter of `learning' but of `using' what is available on the boot disk. My usual editor is emacs. Today I used `ee' for the first time, while installing FreeBSD, it was so easy and pleasant. I can just about limp around with vi. I would be perfectly happy to see any of these editors be made available on the boot disk. The problem is that `ae' is what's available. I just go bananas trying to use it. It just rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps others react to ae in a similar way? Cheers, -- Jeff Sheinberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree tottally. Personally..my favoprite editor right now is ee. I use it I suppose ee is also a candidate for the rescue disks if it fits (it offers searching, which is something that ae doesn't do, and it's smaller than elvis-tiny). Also, note that we probably wouldn't be talking about replacing ae at all if it weren't for problems with earlier versions (which seem to be fixed at this point). That, and the need that resulted in providing a version of ae which had vi-like bindings [I think this was only because of vipw.] -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Jeff Sheinberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that `ae' is what's available. I just go bananas trying to use it. It just rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps others react to ae in a similar way? Yes, but note that the current version of ae fixes a lot of these problems. [I found this out while attempting to verify some of my gripes about ae.] -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, but note that the current version of ae fixes a lot of these problems. [I found this out while attempting to verify some of my gripes about ae.] Is it just me, or does the vi mode in the current version of ae not work at all? I tried ae -f /etc/ae2vi.rc tst and could not even quit with :q, I had to switch consoles and kill it. Perhaps much of this discussion could be solved if ae managed vi keybindings a little better. Martin. P.S. This test was using ae version 962-20. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Hi, Marcus == Marcus Brinkmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Marcus Problem is, you'll never be able to convince a DOS user of a Marcus text editor with different modes. Sorry, I don't think a dumb Marcus newbie should be able to install a workstation, but he should Marcus be able to install the base system and play with Gnome apps. Firstly, even the base system requires either a certain degree of proficiency, or the will and ability to learn, in order to do basic adminstration. You want them to play with Gnome? They can't handle vi, and they can setup X and actually use apps (which again generally have to be configured to do anything real -- like email and give access to the web) Absolute novices unwilling to learn should be lead gently to the nearest windows box. Marcus It is only wise to use the simplest editor that is available, Marcus not the one with the most features (well, *best* solution Marcus would be to have *both*, agreed). Most features? *VI*? or you mean XEmacs? Since when has vi been an editor with features? ;-) manoj -- Wit is the rarest quality to be met with among people of education. William Hazlitt Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Hi, Marcus == Marcus Brinkmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Marcus Oh, cool. Marcus DEBIAN: Sorry, you need a ph.d. in computer science, Marcus 10-year-experience in unix system administration or a good Marcus handbook on the obscure vi program before you can edit a Marcus file during installation process. Don't even think of Marcus installing it. Marcus Nice. Frankly, is is a disservice to introduce anyone with that opinion to Linux, for they shall never be able to take care of the machine itself, and they shall go away bad mouthing Debian. Actually, anyone who thinks they need a PhD or 10 year experience in unix sysadmin to use vi have probably attained neither (and definitely can't attain the latter); and we should do our ver best to keep them well away from computers, and probably matches and sharp objects as well. manoj -- One is not righteous if one decides a case without due consideration, but the wise man who takes into account both for and against, and comes to his decision about others with due consideration - such a man of discrimination who keeps to the truth, he is to be called righteous. 256, 257 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Hi, Jason == Jason Gunthorpe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jason On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Hamish Moffatt wrote: Jason Manoj, does the kernel package always build bzimages or does it look at Jason the size of gzip -9 vmlinux and decide based on that? The kernel makefile defaults to a bzImage (make install), but accepts suggestions otherwise. Nothing looks at the size. manoj -- If you can write a nation's stories, you needn't worry about who makes its laws. Today, television tells most of the stories to most of the people most of the time. George Gerbner Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 03:53:59AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi, Marcus == Marcus Brinkmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Marcus Problem is, you'll never be able to convince a DOS user of a Marcus text editor with different modes. Sorry, I don't think a dumb Marcus newbie should be able to install a workstation, but he should Marcus be able to install the base system and play with Gnome apps. Firstly, even the base system requires either a certain degree of proficiency, or the will and ability to learn, in order to do basic adminstration. Yes, and then it is probably wise to make the learning curve not too steep , or the frustration will overrule the learning fun. I think there is a difference between the cookie cutter approach and the simple question, if we should ship the rescue system with an editor you can or can't use without a manual. ae has the simple advantage, that it can be used by everyone without a manual. QUOTE Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed: golem ed ? help ? ? ? quit ? exit ? bye ? hello? ? eat flaming death ? ^C ? ^C ? ^D ? /QUOTE You want them to play with Gnome? They can't handle vi, and they can setup X and actually use apps (which again generally have to be configured to do anything real -- like email and give access to the web) Yes, this is possible. Absolute novices unwilling to learn should be lead gently to the nearest windows box. Oh well, you are right. Maybe this will change in the future, when even novices want to use the power apps of Linux (not yet, I have to admit). Then it is probably not wise to rule them out right from the very beginning. (I'm ignoring the unwilling to learn here for a moment). Marcus It is only wise to use the simplest editor that is available, Marcus not the one with the most features (well, *best* solution Marcus would be to have *both*, agreed). Most features? *VI*? or you mean XEmacs? Since when has vi been an editor with features? ;-) I eant editors, not coffe machines :) Marcus -- Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.Debian GNU/Linuxfinger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann http://www.debian.orgmaster.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 03:49:29AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi, Frankly, is is a disservice to introduce anyone with that opinion to Linux, for they shall never be able to take care of the machine itself, and they shall go away bad mouthing Debian. Actually, anyone who thinks they need a PhD or 10 year experience in unix sysadmin to use vi have probably attained neither (and definitely can't attain the latter); and we should do our ver best to keep them well away from computers, and probably matches and sharp objects as well. and from voting the gouvernment! (sorry, couldn't resist :) Marcus voting year in Germany! -- Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.Debian GNU/Linuxfinger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann http://www.debian.orgmaster.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Absolute novices unwilling to learn should be lead gently to the nearest windows box. How about something like: introductory vi help (unmap '?' to restore reverse searching) This editor has two modes, in Input mode you may enter text, in Command mode you may alter previously entered text. To enter input mode from command mode, hit i To enter command mode from input mode, hit ESC it's safe to hit ESC while in command mode [ESC means the escape key, ENTER means the enter key] A few other commands: up k downj lefth right k delete current characterx delete current line dd undou save and exit :wq ENTER exit without saving :q! ENTER For more information, see http://www.yahoo.com/Computers_and_Internet/Software/Text_Editors/vi/ -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most features? *VI*? or you mean XEmacs? Since when has vi been an editor with features? ;-) The biggest advantage of vi over xemacs is that vi is easier on the wrists. For example, vi's . command (repeat last command which changed the text) is something that doesn't make much sense in the xemacs environment (because you can always type ^x( command ^x) then ^x^e..., and a command to replace . would be about as many keystrokes). At one point, I almost had to give up programming because my wrists hurt so bad. Switching to vi from emacs (and taking better care of myself) mostly solved that. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
greet all, I am no guru. But let's stop this war! To me, choice of editor depends on your experience, skill and task on hand. I use vi and my boss at work uses emacs. We both like our own choice very much and enjoy the way our choice works for us. But we never try to convert each other, fortunately. For the experience of being converted to something else, if you are a buddist, try being converted by a Christian or vice versa. If you don't believe in any form of god, you are free to choose one or create your own:-) have a peaceful sunday. Jerry On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Raul Miller wrote: Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most features? *VI*? or you mean XEmacs? Since when has vi been an editor with features? ;-) The biggest advantage of vi over xemacs is that vi is easier on the wrists. For example, vi's . command (repeat last command which changed the text) is something that doesn't make much sense in the xemacs environment (because you can always type ^x( command ^x) then ^x^e..., and a command to replace . would be about as many keystrokes). At one point, I almost had to give up programming because my wrists hurt so bad. Switching to vi from emacs (and taking better care of myself) mostly solved that. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] YU, Zhongbin (Jerry) In Nature I believe:-) - M.S. in CIS | M.S. in Chemistry [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~zyu RA w/ Dr. Ramesh| Tel: (404)251-9072 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Most features? *VI*? or you mean XEmacs? Since when has vi been an editor with features? ;-) manoj Kidding, right ? Do :help in VIM and enjoy reading about Vi features till the end of the month :) Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Z-Y [Jerry] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am no guru. But let's stop this war! I apologize for everything I said which seemed combative. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 09:53:17AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote: Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Absolute novices unwilling to learn should be lead gently to the nearest windows box. How about something like: I think you made a good summarize of my total vi knowledge :) I know that this is sufficient for simple edits, and this is all I really know about Vi. We should have a Debian tutorial soon (IIRC). If we have a good chapter on Vi in it, I think vi on the rescue disk should not be a problem. But without any documentation available (on-line documentation does not count in every situation), vi is a nono for beginners. Maybe the text you wrote could be displayed when vi is started (like emacs has some text at start-up) ? Marcus Who doesn't think that he is fighting a war here, but carries on a discussion. introductory vi help (unmap '?' to restore reverse searching) This editor has two modes, in Input mode you may enter text, in Command mode you may alter previously entered text. To enter input mode from command mode, hit i To enter command mode from input mode, hit ESC it's safe to hit ESC while in command mode [ESC means the escape key, ENTER means the enter key] A few other commands: up k downj lefth right k delete current characterx delete current line dd undou save and exit :wq ENTER exit without saving :q! ENTER For more information, see http://www.yahoo.com/Computers_and_Internet/Software/Text_Editors/vi/ -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.Debian GNU/Linuxfinger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann http://www.debian.orgmaster.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
I know that this is sufficient for simple edits, and this is all I really know about Vi. We should have a Debian tutorial soon (IIRC). If we have a good chapter on Vi in it, I think vi on the rescue disk should not be a problem. Maybe the text you wrote could be displayed when vi is started (like emacs has some text at start-up) ? This would be GREAT. Yes, I am sure it would be possible to display some intro text on a startup when you invoke vi with no arguments. (VIM already does this). The only question is *which* VI to put on a rescue disk. Minimally built VIM is 350k, which is probably too much :) Also, it uses ncurses. If there is an interest, I could dig up some other vi versions (even very old ones) to find the smallest free vi. Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Marcus Brinkmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe the text you wrote could be displayed when vi is started (like emacs has some text at start-up) ? Remember that we're talking theory here, even elvis-tiny is currently bigger than ae, and space is cramped on the rescue disk. That said, I was thinking along the lines of making elvis-tiny source /etc/exrc which would contain the lines !echo 'Type ? for help' map ? :!cat /usr/doc/elvis-tiny/intro^M (^M would be the literal carriage return character. Also, the documentation file would have some blank lines at the begining to make it stand out from text being editted). [Aside: are programs for the rescue floppy being built with space saving options like -m386 (for intel) and -fpack-struct?] -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:53:16PM +0200, Marcus Brinkmann wrote: Problem is, you'll never be able to convince a DOS user of a text editor with different modes. Sorry, I don't think a dumb newbie should be able to install a workstation, but he should be able to install the base system and play with Gnome apps. And he shouldn't have to choose Shell... option from menu. So he doesn't need an editor, and that means it could be vi, or even ed if there is not enough space. ash itself is to complicated, also mount, fdisk, etc. What is the real reason to put ae on rescue fd? It doesn't really help anybody. -- Tomislav Vujec [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Tomislav Vujec wrote: On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 09:53:16PM +0200, Marcus Brinkmann wrote: Problem is, you'll never be able to convince a DOS user of a text editor with different modes. Sorry, I don't think a dumb newbie should be able to install a workstation, but he should be able to install the base system and play with Gnome apps. And he shouldn't have to choose Shell... option from menu. So he doesn't need an editor, and that means it could be vi, or even ed if there is not enough space. ash itself is to complicated, also mount, fdisk, etc. What is the real reason to put ae on rescue fd? It doesn't really help anybody. I am a former ``dos'' user, and I wonder what all the fuss over using vi is all about. Vi is not the easiest of editors to learn, and if there is an easier to use editor than vi, I am all for it. Ae or joe appears to fit the mold and there are not a lot of commands to learn and memorize. I for one prefer emacs or xemacs, but for a rescue system they are way too large. But everytime I use vi I still have to get out a book with the command syntax, sinse i don't use it every day. Also xemacs has been added as the default editor in the .profile files on my system. I agree with those that want to make the Linux system easier for the novice. Somewhere I remember that Brakas was lamblasted for creating Fortran that made programing easier back in the 50's. Are we still trying to keep the system a secret from the others so that they will have to come to us? Have a good day -- 0 0 L R Associates Home Page:http://www.netaxs.com/~ldc/ ___ooO ~ Ooo___ LeRoy D. Cressy /\_/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Consulting ( o.o ) Phone (215) 535-4037 ^ Fax (215) 535-4285 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 03:38:59PM -0400, Dale Scheetz wrote: If vi would fit on the rescue disk, do you think we would be discussing ae? To be able to do an install with the rescue disk the space priorities don't allow anything but ae in that environment. When you can get vi's binary size down to the footprint of ae, I will be glad to replace it. Until then all talk of superior usability are nothing but talk. It will not fit. Dale, I hope you only spoke about the link from vi to ae, but I read it that you would not object against using vi alone on the rescue disk. Oh, cool. DEBIAN: Sorry, you need a ph.d. in computer science, 10-year-experience in unix system administration or a good handbook on the obscure vi program before you can edit a file during installation process. Don't even think of installing it. Nice. Marcus -- Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.Debian GNU/Linuxfinger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann http://www.debian.orgmaster.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Marcus Brinkmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DEBIAN: Sorry, you need a ph.d. in computer science, 10-year-experience in unix system administration or a good handbook on the obscure vi program before you can edit a file during installation process. Don't even think of installing it. Er.. a command summary for vi, with enough detail to make it as easy to use as ae, can be made to fit on one screen. No matter what the editor is, I think that the rescue disk needs to announce its existence and provide a short description (just before dropping into the shell prompt). -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:41:56PM -0400, Raul Miller wrote: Marcus Brinkmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DEBIAN: Sorry, you need a ph.d. in computer science, 10-year-experience in unix system administration or a good handbook on the obscure vi program before you can edit a file during installation process. Don't even think of installing it. Er.. a command summary for vi, with enough detail to make it as easy to use as ae, can be made to fit on one screen. Problem is, you'll never be able to convince a DOS user of a text editor with different modes. Sorry, I don't think a dumb newbie should be able to install a workstation, but he should be able to install the base system and play with Gnome apps. It is only wise to use the simplest editor that is available, not the one with the most features (well, *best* solution would be to have *both*, agreed). No matter what the editor is, I think that the rescue disk needs to announce its existence and provide a short description (just before dropping into the shell prompt). Yes. Marcus -- Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.Debian GNU/Linuxfinger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann http://www.debian.orgmaster.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Dale Scheetz writes: To be able to do an install with the rescue disk the space priorities don't allow anything but ae in that environment. When you can get vi's binary size down to the footprint of ae, I will be glad to replace it. Until then all talk of superior usability are nothing but talk. It will not fit. When I first started using Debian I had been using vi for many years, but had never heard of ae. Consequently, it was some time before I found out that there was any editor at all on the rescue disk. Any editor with any keybindings is fine on the rescue disk, as long as it starts up when the user types vi. It probably also should answer to 'ed', 'edit', 'editor', and as many other editor names as we can think of. Put in a splash screen explaining the situation and the user will thank you for the opportunity not to fix config files with cat and grep. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 05:24:06PM -0400, Dale Scheetz wrote: kernel image files (some laptops still can't boot a bzImage) as well as some alternative root.bin choices. A more powerful rescue disk, separate from the installation disk would be a great place to start. Can someone give me a quick summary of bzImage vs zImage and why Debian needs to use bzImage on the root disks at all? Not only does it cause problems with some notebooks, it causes problems my desktop -- spontaneous reboots after Uncompressing Linux sometimes. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Can someone give me a quick summary of bzImage vs zImage and why Debian needs to use bzImage on the root disks at all? Not only does it cause problems with some notebooks, it causes problems my desktop -- spontaneous reboots after Uncompressing Linux sometimes. Well. It goes like this. When you boot the kernel it copies the Image from the disk to 0x1000 (about 64k). If the Image is beyond 600k then you have a problem because it suddenly will not all fit in low memory. A bzImage is more sinister. After it loads a few block in it makes some bios calls to copy the blocks up to 1 meg where the 3rd stage boot loader will run. After that it uncompresses the kernel to some location then copies it to it's proper placement at 1M. a zImage simply uncompresses the kernel to 1M. In theory, on a notebook the int calls are glitchy and crash the system. If your kernel is 600k you MUST use a bzImage and you MUST load it into memory above a meg (ie protected mode). zImages work until that limit is reached. I'm not sure how syslinux loads the ram disk, but I think it must load it into high memory and it might use bios calls to do it.. It's also possible that syslinux is unsing an incompatible way of fiddling into protected mode that mucks things up, I've only looked at the kernel boot loader. Jason Who just today got a 200k 2.0.34 zImage kernel to boot off flash on an embedded AMD 586 from Octagon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:17:20PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: When you boot the kernel it copies the Image from the disk to 0x1000 (about 64k). If the Image is beyond 600k then you have a problem because it suddenly will not all fit in low memory. A bzImage is more sinister. After it loads a few block in it makes some bios calls to copy the blocks up to 1 meg where the 3rd stage boot loader will run. After that it uncompresses the kernel to some location then copies it to it's proper placement at 1M. a zImage simply uncompresses the kernel to 1M. In theory, on a notebook the int calls are glitchy and crash the system. If your kernel is 600k you MUST use a bzImage and you MUST load it into So is there any other advantage? 600k is pretty big for a default kernel, especially since we are making heavy use of modules. My custom 2.0.34 is 300k odd, although obviously the Debian one needs a bunch of SCSI drivers. If we are 600k, why use it when it is problematic? I've no idea why my desktop hates it. Everything else about the machine is perfect, and it's a custom-built clone rather than some IBM or Compaq box, the sought with weird BIOSen. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Hamish Moffatt wrote: If your kernel is 600k you MUST use a bzImage and you MUST load it into So is there any other advantage? 600k is pretty big for a default kernel, especially since we are making heavy use of modules. My custom 2.0.34 is 300k odd, although obviously the Debian one needs a bunch of SCSI drivers. If we are 600k, why use it when it is problematic? If we are 600k (they actually recommend 500k, but 590k is more like it) then bz kernels are a very bad idea. Manoj, does the kernel package always build bzimages or does it look at the size of gzip -9 vmlinux and decide based on that? I've no idea why my desktop hates it. Everything else about the machine is perfect, and it's a custom-built clone rather than some IBM or Compaq box, the sought with weird BIOSen. What is your boot loader? I've only inspected the kernel default (ie dd if=bzImage of=/dev/fd0) no idea what lilo, grub, syslinux or loadlin do, but the end results must be the same. Jason -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:39:01PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: I've no idea why my desktop hates it. Everything else about the machine is perfect, and it's a custom-built clone rather than some IBM or Compaq box, the sought with weird BIOSen. What is your boot loader? I've only inspected the kernel default (ie dd if=bzImage of=/dev/fd0) no idea what lilo, grub, syslinux or loadlin do, but the end results must be the same. Bog-standard lilo, latest version from hamm. The NT loader runs before that but I doubt that makes a difference. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Hamish Moffatt wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:39:01PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: I've no idea why my desktop hates it. Everything else about the machine is perfect, and it's a custom-built clone rather than some IBM or Compaq box, the sought with weird BIOSen. What is your boot loader? I've only inspected the kernel default (ie dd if=bzImage of=/dev/fd0) no idea what lilo, grub, syslinux or loadlin do, but the end results must be the same. Bog-standard lilo, latest version from hamm. The NT loader runs before that but I doubt that makes a difference. Tried booting from a floppy created with dd? Jason -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:44:53PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Hamish Moffatt wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:39:01PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: I've no idea why my desktop hates it. Everything else about the machine is perfect, and it's a custom-built clone rather than some IBM or Compaq box, the sought with weird BIOSen. What is your boot loader? I've only inspected the kernel default (ie dd if=bzImage of=/dev/fd0) no idea what lilo, grub, syslinux or loadlin do, but the end results must be the same. Bog-standard lilo, latest version from hamm. The NT loader runs before that but I doubt that makes a difference. Tried booting from a floppy created with dd? Same problem, if memory serves correctly. Will check it out asap. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Hamish Moffatt wrote: Tried booting from a floppy created with dd? Same problem, if memory serves correctly. Will check it out asap. Upon reflection it occures to me that there are two other possibilities 1) The bios calls to access high memory make it so that the kernel routine to do something (page table setup?) reboots the machine 2) It does not get properly copied to the 1 meg location and reboots because it executes random memory during decompression. You can eliminate #2 by putting a huge for loop (delay) in arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c decompress_kernel (from memory) If it actually does decompress the kernel then #1 is likely, perhaps talk to the kernel people? When the line 'Uncompressing the kernel' is printed the machine is running in protected mode. Jason -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Jason Gunthorpe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Hamish Moffatt wrote: Tried booting from a floppy created with dd? Same problem, if memory serves correctly. Will check it out asap. Upon reflection it occures to me that there are two other possibilities 1) The bios calls to access high memory make it so that the kernel routine to do something (page table setup?) reboots the machine 2) It does not get properly copied to the 1 meg location and reboots because it executes random memory during decompression. I'm told problem is related to turning on the A12 Gate and the cache. It was never explained to me in detail, but it has something to do with the cache having the wrong contents (or rather the wrong tags on the contents) after the A12 line was set. It was never clear to me why they couldn't just clear the cache after turning on the A12 gate. You could ask on the kernel list. LILO, ldlinux.sys, and the built in boot block (dd) exibit the problem. Grub can boot them just fine. Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
I'm told problem is related to turning on the A12 Gate and the cache. It was never explained to me in detail, but it has something to do with the cache having the wrong contents (or rather the wrong tags on the contents) after the A12 line was set. It was never clear to me why they couldn't just clear the cache after turning on the A12 gate. You could ask on the kernel list. That's what the kernel on the tecra disks does AFAIK, using a patch from: http://www.cck.uni-kl.de/misc/tecra710/ Unfotunately, this makes some other machines fail to boot (don't ask me why, that patch always seemed totally harmless to me). Cheers, Phil. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Alright, the more I think about this, the more I think that James is probably right. (NO flames, people can change there minds can't they?) Mc doesn't belong in the base set. i agree to this. neither does vi or emacs belong there, even if emacs whould be an 30KB sized editor. However I do think more attention should be paid to the user. (not alot more just some.) THIS is the correct aproach. in the base system an editor is needed, that everybody can use, not only those vi-nerds (like me). even emacs is to difficult to use. i hate to say that, but i'd like to see an editor like the dos-editor 'edit'. this editor can be used instantly by nearly every computer user with a little expirience. and that's what's needed. I've a freind who wrote a editor like dos edit. However it has some rather nasty bugs Anyone here use Tico? ... I don't think we have a package for it, I don't even know what licence it's under, It was just sugested to me. if there is a chance of getting the bugs out of it and it is GPLed i would be interested to work on it. so here is what I propose: Lets rewrite the keybindings for Ae, to something that is much simpler. something akin to the keybindings on pico[1]. We can then set this alternative keybinding to be the default, and also include a vi and or standard keybindings, set. this should make everyone happy. IMHO. I'm working on the new keybindings right now... hopefully I'll have them done tonight, and in my home dir on master (ewigin). If anyone wants to help, Letme know. i don't think, you can make a easy to use editor out of ae. somebody threw 'le' in. what's that? I don't know either, anymore... I'm kinda lost in the ae.rc file... very confusing... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
path without saying what that set path should be. So, why do the vi users like _using_ vi? (Someone already said it's standard... can I get real reasons now? :) i'm faster with vi. that's all. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
If vi would fit on the rescue disk, do you think we would be discussing ae? i think it's not a good idea to put vi there. this editor can be used by a profi only and a prof can use any other editor too. a beginner won't be able to use vi but the easy to use small editor. maybe ae is bad, but it easier to use then vi and small. i wouldn discuss vi or ae, i would like to look for a really easy to use editor. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bootint big kernels was Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 09:17:20PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
When you boot the kernel it copies the Image from the disk to 0x1000
(about 64k). If the Image is beyond 600k then you have a problem because
it suddenly will not all fit in low memory.
A bzImage is more sinister. After it loads a few block in it makes some
bios calls to copy the blocks up to 1 meg where the 3rd stage boot loader
will run. After that it uncompresses the kernel to some location then
copies it to it's proper placement at 1M. a zImage simply uncompresses the
kernel to 1M.
In theory, on a notebook the int calls are glitchy and crash the system.
If your kernel is 600k you MUST use a bzImage and you MUST load it into
So is there any other advantage? 600k is pretty big for a default
kernel, especially since we are making heavy use of modules. My custom 2.0.34
is 300k odd, although obviously the Debian one needs a bunch of SCSI drivers.
If we are 600k, why use it when it is problematic?
The problem is that the Debian installation kernel tries to be all things
to all people. As there are machines that boot from SCSI drives, it was
necessary to have all the scsi controlers built in to the kernel, hense
its large size.
We should recommend that everyone, once they have a standard system and
can build a kernel, should build a custom kernel for their machine as
early as possible.
Another solution is the one that slackware provides. They build a bunch
of kernels, each one for a specific hardware configuration (broad enought
to cover a range of hardware, and chosen to keep incopatibly drivers out
of the picture {like the wd9000 driver that plonks ethernet cards})
Waiting is,
Dwarf
--
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Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308
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Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Michael Dietrich wrote: Alright, the more I think about this, the more I think that James is probably right. (NO flames, people can change there minds can't they?) Mc doesn't belong in the base set. i agree to this. neither does vi or emacs belong there, even if emacs whould be an 30KB sized editor. However I do think more attention should be paid to the user. (not alot more just some.) THIS is the correct aproach. in the base system an editor is needed, that everybody can use, not only those vi-nerds (like me). even emacs is to difficult to use. i hate to say that, but i'd like to see an editor like the dos-editor 'edit'. this editor can be used instantly by nearly every computer user with a little expirience. and that's what's needed. I've a freind who wrote a editor like dos edit. However it has some rather nasty bugs Anyone here use Tico? ... I don't think we have a package for it, I don't even know what licence it's under, It was just sugested to me. if there is a chance of getting the bugs out of it and it is GPLed i would be interested to work on it. so here is what I propose: Lets rewrite the keybindings for Ae, to something that is much simpler. something akin to the keybindings on pico[1]. We can then set this alternative keybinding to be the default, and also include a vi and or standard keybindings, set. this should make everyone happy. IMHO. I'm working on the new keybindings right now... hopefully I'll have them done tonight, and in my home dir on master (ewigin). If anyone wants to help, Letme know. i don't think, you can make a easy to use editor out of ae. somebody threw 'le' in. what's that? I don't know either, anymore... I'm kinda lost in the ae.rc file... very confusing... Yes it is. What is wrong with the current emacs keybindings for ae? They work on any terminal. Before you put a lot of effort into changing the keybindings on ae, take a look at the current ones and tell me what is wrong with them. I have several weeks of work in the current solution and it works as advertized. I have never understood why folks have problems with ae (except of course when the keybindings were broken). The keys that you can press and have an action take place are all listed on the screen. You can cut and paste, type and delete. What more could you ask for in a quick and dirty editor? BTW, for those who just can't deal with ae, sed is the alternative ;-) Luck, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bootint big kernels was Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Quoting Dale Scheetz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
Another solution is the one that slackware provides. They build a bunch
of kernels, each one for a specific hardware configuration (broad enought
to cover a range of hardware, and chosen to keep incopatibly drivers out
of the picture {like the wd9000 driver that plonks ethernet cards})
And one of slackware's biggest flaws is the hoard or new users that
can't figure out which kernel to use.
--
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Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Previously Dale Scheetz wrote: ae already does this, and provides a reasonably vi ish interface, just to satisfy those whose fingers are only programmed for vi. Personally, I find ae's vi-compatibility even worse then normal ae: it tricks me into thinking it's vi, but I can never resist using some vi-magic which confuses ae and gives me horrible results. On my own installation disks (for local network use only) I'm putting vim, with almost all options turned off. This gives me a small vi which works even better then the original vi :) Wichert. -- == This combination of bytes forms a message written to you by Wichert Akkerman. E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.wi.leidenuniv.nl/~wichert/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, Jun 11, 1998 at 04:15:33PM +0200, Michael Dietrich wrote: If vi would fit on the rescue disk, do you think we would be discussing ae? i think it's not a good idea to put vi there. this editor can be used by a profi only and a prof can use any other editor too. a beginner won't be able to use vi but the easy to use small editor. maybe ae is bad, but it easier to use then vi and small. i wouldn discuss vi or ae, i would like to look for a really easy to use editor. Actually, a regular vi user might be slower with another editor than with vi, if only in looking for features it doesn't have. I have a shocking time using pico because most of the useful features of vi are missing, for example. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
new installations are done by windows users, not by unix system admins. at least 90% ... while ed, vi and emacs might be nice for old unix hackers, joe is the right choice for old dos hackers. i'm useing vim everyday, and i will rather use sed than ae or that mini vi. joe would be acceptable, too. andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
At a client's place with a broken SunOS 4 box? Need to fix the /usr partition and password file. Chances are are you'll have to use vi. Similarly, BSD, SCO, etc, etc... maybe you should learn edlin, it's the only editor available on computers running msdos 2.11. or how to use vms, maybe one day ... stop this. if you ever have to work with , then you cna learn it. but if you want to install debian gnu/linux, you don't want to learn how to use sco/sunos/msdos 2.11/vms/whatever. you want a debian gnu/linux system. Then, by the same token, every debian system should have a vi-compatible editor so that you know if you go around to a client's place with a broken machine, down to the root partition and you have to save the database, that vi is around. max compatibilities ? new linux installations are done by a few people familiar with unix a few people familiar with mac a few people familiar with dos a few people who never used a computer very many people familiar with win95 so we should copy notepad ? joe has enought help text, so anyone can do a emergency edit session. and for everything else, you can install your own editor. hey: whenever i have to work at a linux machine, i fix it to the point where i can install vim, and then i can use vim, my favorite editor. but vim is too big, and i don't force people unfamliar with vi to use vim. joe - hey for the worst case everyone can use it. i can't say that about vi or emacs. and ae is ugly ugly ugly ugly ugly. So on any future base system there should exist a '/bin/vi' (possibly a symlink) which invokes some binary (I don't mind which) in some kind of mode which emulates vi. and the next guy will force us to install /bin/edlin ? andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
i'm useing vim every day. i cannot even open or save a file in emacs, or your it (hey, i tried !). a working joe is better than a brain damaged vi or ae. andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
(vi) It is the only editor that you can count on being there if all else fails and it's absence or replacement would be VERY notable to those who expect vi. editor.exe is the only editor that you can count on being there if all else fails and it's absence or replacement would be VERY notable to those who expect editor.exe lets do a ratio of dos/win* users that will install linux, and unix users that will install linux. you have lost. hey, i'm useing linux for a long time, and i expect joe to be there. vi would fit if we were talking about unix. but this is debian gnu/linux, and not unix, and so it's not vi or edlin or emacs : it's joe. everyone can use joe. it might be very frustrateing but it's possible. i can't use emacs, and my neighbor can't use vi. and even i as a 100% vim user rather like to use joe than a cut down vi where lots of functionality is missing. again, I've used vi on over 20 platforms each running various OS's over the past 12+ years. no new linux user is supposed to do that. should i go out and find someone who used edlin and editor.exe in the last 12+ years ? linux isn't a new unix, there is lots of spirit from the windows world. if all else fails. When I got stuck in ae the first few times, I ended up running to another machine to make a disk with vi on it because I had more important things to think about (and repair) than to try to work around a strange editor. me too i'm useing sed or stuff like this - it's better than ae or that broken vi (emulation ?). more often i create new files with echo. Like I said, overall, I think this issue is being discussed on a comfort level right now. I think we should really be hashing out whether or not we want to cater to newbies (ae) or to experienced systems admins (vi). I'm for the latter, but that's only my opinion i don't give a peny for experienced system admins. we always find our way to repair a system up to the point where we can install vim.deb ... and newbies who like ae ? i don't know anybody. lets give the newbies a real editor, and we unix sysadmins can either use that one too, or continue with our sed/echo/*** hacks. Also, why not just offer two different disks if possible? why not create a cdrom with a live filesystem and all available editors on it? the contrib cdrom is still pretty empty ... andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
If vi would fit on the rescue disk, do you think we would be discussing ae? To be able to do an install with the rescue disk the space priorities don't allow anything but ae in that environment. When you can get vi's binary size down to the footprint of ae, I will be glad to replace it. Until then all talk of superior usability are nothing but talk. It will not fit. rescue disk ? if the system fails, you have to install the base system on your swap partition, and than continue with that. ok, in some very rare conditions you can't do that, and then you need an editor. what about createing a bootable live-rescue-cdrom ? does anybody know how to do that. andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Andreas Jellinghaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: everyone can use joe. it might be very frustrateing but it's possible. We already have that with ae. Is Joe smaller than ae? -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Wichert Akkerman wrote: Previously Dale Scheetz wrote: ae already does this, and provides a reasonably vi ish interface, just to satisfy those whose fingers are only programmed for vi. Personally, I find ae's vi-compatibility even worse then normal ae: it tricks me into thinking it's vi, but I can never resist using some vi-magic which confuses ae and gives me horrible results. I agree. I prefer to use ae as ae to keep this clear. I use ae, vi, ed, sed, joe, and sometime emacs every day. I also work with software on that other os, like pagemaker and word. These are all different and similar and confusing. I am always typing :wqreturn in joe and ^k^x in vi, both of which are non-destructive actions (in joe you have to delete the characters you typed and in vi it laughs at you) In ae, I always had to check the menu, until I put the emacs bindings in place. Does vi recogize ^X^S? ;-) On my own installation disks (for local network use only) I'm putting vim, with almost all options turned off. This gives me a small vi which works even better then the original vi :) Cool, we can always use a better vi ;-) Waiting is, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
new installations are done by windows users, not by unix system admins. at least 90% ... while ed, vi and emacs might be nice for old unix hackers, joe is the right choice for old dos hackers. i'm useing vim everyday, and i will rather use sed than ae or that mini vi. joe would be acceptable, too. andreas +++ Gosh I forgot about joe (havn't used it since I went from slackware to debian. Joe is a sortof clone of wordstar. Wow, I used wordstar for some time before getting wordperfect. (Now at work I'm stuck with MS word. YUCK! Always getting documents infected with viruses). If ae is a mini set of vi (cursor keys, insert, delete, write commands same) then I would not get lost. Anyone remember DEC's teco? Is there a free clone of that? Teco's macro language was so extensive that I heard of a mad decee who wrote a startrek game in teco. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu 11 Jun 1998, Raul Miller wrote: Andreas Jellinghaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: everyone can use joe. it might be very frustrateing but it's possible. We already have that with ae. Is Joe smaller than ae? no. much bigger and much more useable IMO. andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Wichert Akkerman wrote: : Previously Dale Scheetz wrote: : ae already does this, and provides a reasonably vi ish interface, just to : satisfy those whose fingers are only programmed for vi. : : Personally, I find ae's vi-compatibility even worse then normal ae: it : tricks me into thinking it's vi, but I can never resist using some : vi-magic which confuses ae and gives me horrible results. Seconded. I've been training myself to type `ae' rather than `vi' when using the rescue disk - i've screwed things up too many times thinking I was actually using vi. Dale, I don't mind `ae' - it works :) But the vi mappings I don't like. Realising this is another of those religious debates I'll stop now :) -- Nathan Norman MidcoNet - 410 South Phillips Avenue - Sioux Falls, SD 57104 mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.midco.net finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP Key: (0xA33B86E9) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Andreas Jellinghaus wrote: editor.exe is the only editor that you can count on being there if all else fails and it's absence or replacement would be VERY notable to those who expect editor.exe lets do a ratio of dos/win* users that will install linux, and unix users that will install linux. you have lost. Well, first off, editor.exe isn't there at all on DOS systems (edit for later versions or edlin for earlier), but let's not get into that...it's irrelevant right now. It's up to you, I guess, as to what editor to use. I think it's pointless to argue about it. I just think we can do better than ae. I don't personally care since I can use sed, cat, or any other number of methods to fix my system if need be (I keep a static vi laying around NFS). *I* take precautions like that, so I don't need stock rescue disks. Therefore, I'm NOT going to argue about this very hard at all. I just figured I would voice an opinion to second one that had been expressed before. hey, i'm useing linux for a long time, and i expect joe to be there. Then put it thereI don't see why this has become such a difficult issue. vi would fit if we were talking about unix. but this is debian gnu/linux, and not unix, and so it's not vi or edlin or emacs : it's joe. everyone can use joe. it might be very frustrateing but it's possible. i can't use emacs, and my neighbor can't use vi. and even i as a 100% vim user rather like to use joe than a cut down vi where lots of functionality is missing. I feel your pain with emacs. I learned it years ago and dropped it almost as long ago. I just hate hitting key combos to do things. As for joe, never used it, but would try it. I've tried ae, though, and I thought it was functional, but non-intuitive on any user level. no new linux user is supposed to do that. should i go out and find someone who used edlin and editor.exe in the last 12+ years ? linux isn't a new unix, there is lots of spirit from the windows world. My point is that more and more Linux systems are being HEAVILY used in the business world and therefore would normally have an experienced hand there to repair the systems. Very few Windows users who dual boot to Linux would even bother trying to rescue their system...they would simply reinstall (as Mr. Gates has trained them to do when things go wrong). me too i'm useing sed or stuff like this - it's better than ae or that broken vi (emulation ?). more often i create new files with echo. Agreed 1% :-) i don't give a peny for experienced system admins. we always find our way to repair a system up to the point where we can install vim.deb ... Very true. It's just handier. Like I said before...it's just an opinion...not me trying to convince you one way or another. and newbies who like ae ? i don't know anybody. lets give the newbies a real editor, and we unix sysadmins can either use that one too, or continue with our sed/echo/*** hacks. Sounds good to me. Anything's better than ae, IMO. why not create a cdrom with a live filesystem and all available editors on it? the contrib cdrom is still pretty empty ... Not a bad idea, but 75% of my personal computers don't have CD-ROMs :-( I would guess that most people do, so it's still a great idea (I'm not saying that just because it doesn't suit me that it's not a good idea that should be pursued). I think we should find a way to provide a floppy option, though, just in case. I personally use either Zip disks or a disk image that's loaded into a ramdisk and also mount an NFS volume for access to some static binaries. Then again, I'm just cool like that :-P Hehehe... Chris andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Raul Miller wrote: Andreas Jellinghaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: everyone can use joe. it might be very frustrateing but it's possible. We already have that with ae. Is Joe smaller than ae? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~]$ ll /bin/ae /usr/bin/joe -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root24076 May 23 22:21 /bin/ae* -rwxr-xr-x 5 root root 174020 Apr 20 00:11 /usr/bin/joe* Well, joe seems to be about seven times as big as ae, so that's out of the question. Remco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Wichert Akkerman wrote: Previously Dale Scheetz wrote: ae already does this, and provides a reasonably vi ish interface, just to satisfy those whose fingers are only programmed for vi. Personally, I find ae's vi-compatibility even worse then normal ae: it tricks me into thinking it's vi, but I can never resist using some vi-magic which confuses ae and gives me horrible results. As an elvis fan, I share those feelings. On my own installation disks (for local network use only) I'm putting vim, with almost all options turned off. This gives me a small vi which works even better then the original vi :) Cool. How big is that? Could it be put into a package (just like elvis-tiny)? We'd have yet another vi clone. Remco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The editor expert who cannot even break his lines at 80 characters .. So shoot me; I'm using exmh, which appears to wrap words and doesn't get around to actually inserting the carriage returns... And I'm no expert... I just wanna know what all the furor is over vi :) -Jim -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Jim wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: The editor expert who cannot even break his lines at 80 characters .. So shoot me; I'm using exmh, which appears to wrap words and doesn't get aro und to actually inserting the carriage returns... That's a preference setting: Simple Editor - Format Mail default = OnSend -- Oliver Elphick[EMAIL PROTECTED] Isle of Wight http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver PGP key from public servers; key ID 32B8FAA1 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. Proverbs 8:17 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Jim wrote: What is it people see in vi in terms of _using_ it? My opinion FWIW is that vi's presentation rivals that of dselect in general, with vi inching dselect out for not forcing one to follow a set path without saying what that set path should be. So, why do the vi users like _using_ vi? (Someone already said it's standard... can I get real reasons now? :) -Jim We all agree that this isn't release critical, and we all agree that elvis-tiny is not going anywhere right now. I will now, however, try to justify vi's continued existence: Vi is a standard. Everyone who considers themselves a 'systems administrator' should learn how to use vi. This is because even on very old systems, you will find vi on the base system. At a client's place with a broken SunOS 4 box? Need to fix the /usr partition and password file. Chances are are you'll have to use vi. Similarly, BSD, SCO, etc, etc... Then, by the same token, every debian system should have a vi-compatible editor so that you know if you go around to a client's place with a broken machine, down to the root partition and you have to save the database, that vi is around. Now, I don't actually like 'vi'. Personally, I almost invariably use emacs for my unix-side editing. But I do know how to use vi, well enough to fix broken hosts and passwd files.. So on any future base system there should exist a '/bin/vi' (possibly a symlink) which invokes some binary (I don't mind which) in some kind of mode which emulates vi. Jules /+---+-\ | Jelibean aka | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 6 Evelyn Rd| | Jules aka | | Richmond, Surrey | | Julian Bean | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| TW9 2TF *UK* | ++---+-+ | War doesn't demonstrate who's right... just who's left. | | When privacy is outlawed... only the outlaws have privacy. | \--/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 04:30:42PM +0100, Jules Bean wrote: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Jim wrote: Vi is a standard. Everyone who considers themselves a 'systems administrator' should learn how to use vi. This is because even on very old systems, you will find vi on the base system. When it comes to a situation, where we would have to decide between an ae like editor and vi, I would vote for ae all the time for the following reason: * A system administrator should be able to recover his system with an ae editor in the same way as with vi. If just don't believe that he can figure out how vi works, buit not how ae works. * A newbie will never be able to use vi right from the beginning. Maybe he doesn't even know how to EXIT vi. So: Vi is for less people useful than ae, although it may be more powerful. I'm only talking about rescue disks and base system here. Marcus PS: If you say that a sysadmin expects vi to be there, link vi to ae on a rescue disk. He *will* have an editor, this should be sufficient. PPS: This is not part of an editor war, but logic calculation. -- Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.Debian GNU/Linuxfinger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann http://www.debian.orgmaster.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Marcus Brinkmann wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 04:30:42PM +0100, Jules Bean wrote: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Jim wrote: Vi is a standard. Everyone who considers themselves a 'systems administrator' should learn how to use vi. This is because even on very old systems, you will find vi on the base system. When it comes to a situation, where we would have to decide between an ae like editor and vi, I would vote for ae all the time for the following reason: * A system administrator should be able to recover his system with an ae editor in the same way as with vi. If just don't believe that he can figure out how vi works, buit not how ae works. * A newbie will never be able to use vi right from the beginning. Maybe he doesn't even know how to EXIT vi. So: Vi is for less people useful than ae, although it may be more powerful. I'm only talking about rescue disks and base system here. Marcus PS: If you say that a sysadmin expects vi to be there, link vi to ae on a rescue disk. He *will* have an editor, this should be sufficient. ae already does this, and provides a reasonably vi ish interface, just to satisfy those whose fingers are only programmed for vi. The normal ae interface is explicit and clear (and it even all works correctly now on almost any terminal device) Until a comperable editor with a smaller footprint is available, I see no alternative to using ae on the rescue disk. What gets delivered to the final installed system, should, as always, be up to the end user. Luck, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
PS: If you say that a sysadmin expects vi to be there, link vi to ae on a rescue disk. He *will* have an editor, this should be sufficient. Argh! Please don't do this. It used to drive me nuts to type vi and get ae (whether in ae or braindamaged-vi mode). If there is some vital reason for removing vi, it should be replaced with a script that says something along the lines of: VI is missing from this rescue disk because of space constraints, although it is of course a standard part of any Debian GNU/Linux system. In the mean time, you can use the simple editor that is available, which is called ``ae'' Cheers, Phil. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
Philip Hands wrote: Please don't do this. It used to drive me nuts to type vi and get ae (whether in ae or braindamaged-vi mode). If there is some vital reason for removing vi, it should be replaced with a script that says something along the lines of: VI is missing from this rescue disk because of space constraints, although it is of course a standard part of any Debian GNU/Linux system. In the mean time, you can use the simple editor that is available, which is called ``ae'' This seems to be a comfort-based argument with the people comfortable with vi vs the people who like ae. To me, it's immaterial overall. I would tend to side with Phil, however, in that vi is the accepted and expected editor when it comes to multi-platform work. It is the only editor that you can count on being there if all else fails and it's absence or replacement would be VERY notable to those who expect vi. I've used and been confused by ae in the past (yes, I apparently am brain-damaged enough from concussions to not understand it's simplicity), so I'm one of those people who's comfortable with vi. Then again, I've used vi on over 20 platforms each running various OS's over the past 12+ years. I, personally, *like* knowing that it will be there if all else fails. When I got stuck in ae the first few times, I ended up running to another machine to make a disk with vi on it because I had more important things to think about (and repair) than to try to work around a strange editor. Like I said, overall, I think this issue is being discussed on a comfort level right now. I think we should really be hashing out whether or not we want to cater to newbies (ae) or to experienced systems admins (vi). I'm for the latter, but that's only my opinion Also, why not just offer two different disks if possible? Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Philip Hands wrote: PS: If you say that a sysadmin expects vi to be there, link vi to ae on a rescue disk. He *will* have an editor, this should be sufficient. Argh! Please don't do this. It used to drive me nuts to type vi and get ae (whether in ae or braindamaged-vi mode). If there is some vital reason for removing vi, it should be replaced with a script that says something along the lines of: Sorry, but this feature is still in ae. It gets overridden as soon as a real vi gets installed. VI is missing from this rescue disk because of space constraints, although it is of course a standard part of any Debian GNU/Linux system. In the mean time, you can use the simple editor that is available, which is called ``ae'' This was not considered sufficient for those who demand an executable for vi. I tend to agree with you, but I have no problem typing ae or vi given the right context, so I am happy to supply what the user demands, except when two demands are contradictory of course. Here I must make a choice, and I have chosen to leave this crippled vi clone in place because it seems to satisfy some of the more vocal advocates. Luck, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Christopher C. Chimelis wrote: Like I said, overall, I think this issue is being discussed on a comfort level right now. I think we should really be hashing out whether or not we want to cater to newbies (ae) or to experienced systems admins (vi). I'm for the latter, but that's only my opinion Also, why not just offer two different disks if possible? If vi would fit on the rescue disk, do you think we would be discussing ae? To be able to do an install with the rescue disk the space priorities don't allow anything but ae in that environment. When you can get vi's binary size down to the footprint of ae, I will be glad to replace it. Until then all talk of superior usability are nothing but talk. It will not fit. Luck, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Dale Scheetz wrote: If vi would fit on the rescue disk, do you think we would be discussing ae? I guess not, then... To be able to do an install with the rescue disk the space priorities don't allow anything but ae in that environment. When you can get vi's binary size down to the footprint of ae, I will be glad to replace it. Until then all talk of superior usability are nothing but talk. It will not fit. Maybe this should be worked on, then. I'll see what I can do with my limited resources and time, but I'm doubtful that it will fit no matter what we do :-( Hany way we could compress it and uncompress it into a ramdisk? Just an idea...I know it's more trouble than just keeping ae, but I'm trying :) C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Christopher C Chimelis wrote: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Dale Scheetz wrote: If vi would fit on the rescue disk, do you think we would be discussing ae? I guess not, then... To be able to do an install with the rescue disk the space priorities don't allow anything but ae in that environment. When you can get vi's binary size down to the footprint of ae, I will be glad to replace it. Until then all talk of superior usability are nothing but talk. It will not fit. Maybe this should be worked on, then. I'll see what I can do with my limited resources and time, but I'm doubtful that it will fit no matter what we do :-( Hany way we could compress it and uncompress it into a ramdisk? Just an idea...I know it's more trouble than just keeping ae, but I'm trying :) I believe the right solution would be to design a separate, true, rescue disk (what we now call the rescue disk is, in fact, the installation boot disk) that has none of the installation software installed, but simply boots into a single user shell with an appropriate set of tools, like vi, fdisk, dd, ... so that the exprienced sys admin (or consultant) can come in and recover broken systems. This is fundamentally a different job from system installation. (in fact if the system installation is perfect you need no additional tools at all ;-) Someone in this conversation suggested that they had built rescue disks with vi installed. What did they remove to make it fit? As this is all a root file system issue (the root.bin file that goes on the installation boot disk). I would suggest that asside from the default installation kernel and root.bin we should have some alternative kernels (with their proper drivers disk) that provide zImage instead of bzImage kernel image files (some laptops still can't boot a bzImage) as well as some alternative root.bin choices. A more powerful rescue disk, separate from the installation disk would be a great place to start. Waiting is, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VI reasons (was Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If vi would fit on the rescue disk, do you think we would be discussing ae? $ ll elvis-tiny -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root67244 Feb 22 15:45 elvis-tiny* $ ll /bin/ae -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root24012 Apr 13 15:12 /bin/ae* Is there a termcap-emulation mode in the slang library? If so, elvis-tiny could be linked with it .. it uses termcap, not terminfo Just throwing some fuel on the fire :) Mike. -- Miquel van Smoorenburg | Our vision is to speed up time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | eventually eliminating it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Hi all... another comment from the peanut gallery (i.e., non-voter) :) [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: We _must_ have a vi (or at worst, vi clone) available in the base system. Why? I think you see vi as I see gpm and they see mc: as an essential convenience. Fact about VI: it has two modes which make the keys mean totally different things and don't announce themselves except thru the terminal bell. My opinion about this: (deleted; form your own :) Historical fact about VI: some people got really, really good at using it :) -Jim -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why? I think you see vi as I see gpm and they see mc: as an essential convenience. vi has the advantage of being backward compatible into the early '80s. The only unix editors which vie with vi for standardness are ed (the unix standard), and emacs (backwards compatible into the early '70s). -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why? I think you see vi as I see gpm and they see mc: as an essential convenience. vi has the advantage of being backward compatible into the early '80s. The only unix editors which vie with vi for standardness are ed (the unix standard), and emacs (backwards compatible into the early '70s). ^ Now _THAT'S_ a great idea... A boot disk with emacs... Hmmm... Size... Darn... :) -- - ___ Debian GNU/Linux Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just ___ /___(_)__ _ __ selective about who its friends are __ / __ /__ __ \ / / /_ |/_/ _ /___ / _ / / / /_/ /__ Turbo Fredriksson Tel: +46-704-697645 /_/_/ /_/ /_/\__,_/ /_/|_| S-415 10 Göteborg[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP#788CD1A9 SWEDEN www5.tripnet.se/~turbo --- PGP: B7 92 93 0E 06 94 D6 22 98 1F 0B 5B FE 33 A1 0B -- -- spy class struggle jihad assassination Clinton Albanian Legion of Doom Delta Force ammunition FBI cryptographic arrangements supercomputer Uzi Marxist -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Paul Seelig [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This doesn't touch the fact that MC would be a very convenient additional feature for a user friendly Debian base system. a) I don't think it would be, b) that's not what the proposal was; the proposal was to remove ae *and elvis-tiny* from the base system because they're ``superseded'' by mc. The fact that vi *must* be in the base system clearly does touch on that. Who cares about it anyway if J.J.Troup likes it or not just because he (supposedly) doesn't really know it? ;-) Oh, grow up Paul. You have zero idea how well (or otherwise) I know mc, so please stop the FUD. Adding a smiley does not justify childishness. -- James ~Yawn And Walk North~ http://yawn.nocrew.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 05:28:46PM +0200, Paul Seelig wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim) writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: We _must_ have a vi (or at worst, vi clone) available in the base system. mode=aolME TOO/mode This doesn't touch the fact that MC would be a very convenient additional feature for a user friendly Debian base system. I do not oppose having a user friendly editor in the base system, as long as that does not conflict with the desire to keep the base system small. Remember, enough people are complaining about the base system's size as it is. Perhaps someone can look at le? Most of the libs it requires (libc6, libstdc++2.8) are already in the base system; slang (which is in there too) might be used instead of ncurses. Ray -- Obsig: developing a new sig -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why? I think you see vi as I see gpm and they see mc: as an essential convenience. vi has the advantage of being backward compatible into the early '80s. The only unix editors which vie with vi for standardness are ed (the unix standard), and emacs (backwards compatible into the early '70s). ^ Now _THAT'S_ a great idea... A boot disk with emacs... Hmmm... Size... Darn... :) Yeah, that is too bad... Isn't ease of use more important than standardness when it comes to an editor to be used for a rescue situation? I think that I would try doing an alternative set of boot disks to see how folx liked them. Is it possible to make mc use vi? On the rescue disk, size is at least neck and neck with ease of use. What is it people see in vi in terms of _using_ it? My opinion FWIW is that vi's presentation rivals that of dselect in general, with vi inching dselect out for not forcing one to follow a set path without saying what that set path should be. So, why do the vi users like _using_ vi? (Someone already said it's standard... can I get real reasons now? :) -Jim -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't ease of use more important than standardness when it comes to an editor to be used for a rescue situation? I think that I would try doing an alternative set of boot disks to see how folx liked them. Is it possible to make mc use vi? On the rescue disk, size is at least neck and neck with ease of use. (1) I'd prefer to postpone this dicussion till after hamm is released. (2) mc on my system always uses vi, even if I have EDITOR turned off. (presumably because it wants to save my preferences, and doesn't understand that I have different working environments). (3) ae is sufficiently easy to use, and sufficiently small. What is it people see in vi in terms of _using_ it? Outside the scope of debian-devel. Or, at least, I'd rather concentrate on getting hamm out the door than in editor religious discussions. If you are after opinion (as opposed to discussion), I'll be following this letter with a personal one to you, describing my own concepts of why vi is popular. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is it people see in vi in terms of _using_ it? My opinion FWIW is that vi's presentation rivals that of dselect in general, with vi inching dselect out for not forcing one to follow a set path without saying what that set path should be. So, why do the vi users like _using_ vi? (Someone already said it's standard... can I get real reasons now? :) The editor expert who cannot even break his lines at 80 characters .. :) Sorry, but you're asking for a flamewar. Which is why I (vi user) will not reply to your question. Mike. -- Miquel van Smoorenburg | Our vision is to speed up time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | eventually eliminating it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 11:02:55AM -0400, Raul Miller wrote: Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why? I think you see vi as I see gpm and they see mc: as an essential convenience. vi has the advantage of being backward compatible into the early '80s. The only unix editors which vie with vi for standardness are ed (the unix standard), and emacs (backwards compatible into the early '70s). Just for fun, from the the standard emacs distribution: - -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed - -rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi - -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs :-) -- David Welton http://www.efn.org/~davidw Debian GNU/Linux - www.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Alright, the more I think about this, the more I think that James is probably right. (NO flames, people can change there minds can't they?) Mc doesn't belong in the base set. However I do think more attention should be paid to the user. (not alot more just some.) so here is what I propose: Lets rewrite the keybindings for Ae, to something that is much simpler. something akin to the keybindings on pico[1]. We can then set this alternative keybinding to be the default, and also include a vi and or standard keybindings, set. this should make everyone happy. IMHO. I'm working on the new keybindings right now... hopefully I'll have them done tonight, and in my home dir on master (ewigin). If anyone wants to help, Letme know. Here is the breakdown on space taken up, by extra rc file for ae: - -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2452 Nov 13 1997 ae.rc - -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 3301 Nov 13 1997 ae2vi.rc are included, so figure about 3000 for a ae-pico.rc [1]: I've been told that pico is the braindead editor thats why I chose it. - -Kevin Poorman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQB1AwUBNX2mgxsA5GylAiwdAQFfPQL/VcoYZodDjZGLBfh9s7cmp2U2dk8hqDQL 0QMKronnXxFPIyDnn9YwBwmeaXYcIaah9cqQPLGsfes07rapmE/stmXACz+nh15+ oTy3MQsZI+KZ75qrV9/Bv0IFpiGWoghT =GS/i -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
I would like to have `mc' and the two packages it depends on placed into the base set. I think this is a horrendously bad idea. agreed -- see header -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
On 7 Jun 1998, James Troup wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom) writes: I would like to have `mc' and the two packages it depends on placed into the base set. I think this is a horrendously bad idea. We could then get rid of both `elvis-tiny' and `ae', and be left with a powerful tool that is easy for beginners and experienced folks alike. And we would be left without an editor which works when in single user mode. What a plan. Yes, its library requirements would have to be moved to /lib, like the slang library was for ae. `mc', the Midnight Commander, has a very nice editor built in now. Does it do vi emulation? I didn't think so. So? It is a very nice clean editor. `mc' will let you look inside of and install `.deb' files also. Gosh, what a revolutionary concept. I did hear about something else that could do that though. What was it? dekg? dplg? I can't remember. I'm sorry you have such a poor memory, but the package you fail to name is missing much of the functionality that mc provides in the dive into a .deb file feature. Because it treats the opened .deb file as a file system, you can do all the things to the internal components that the tool provides for other files presented in the file list. BTW, if this is to be a technical discussion of the merrits and weaknesses of this idea, your tone of voice could stand some adjustment ;-) Luck, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_- Author of The Debian Linux User's Guide _-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We could then get rid of both `elvis-tiny' and `ae', and be left with a powerful tool that is easy for beginners and experienced folks alike. And we would be left without an editor which works when in single user mode. What a plan. Yes, its library requirements would have to be moved to /lib, like the slang library was for ae. I can tell you, as the gpm maintainer, that libgpm is *not* moving into /lib/. It is gratuitous and unnecessary bloat of /. `mc', the Midnight Commander, has a very nice editor built in now. Does it do vi emulation? I didn't think so. So? It is a very nice clean editor. IYO. We _must_ have a vi (or at worst, vi clone) available in the base system. You can't just arbitrarily decide that vi shouldn't be included any more because you prefer mc. The entire idea is ridiculous; just more mc-fanatics trying to shove their idolised program down others' throats. Give over already. It is a) way too big for the base system for the minimal or non-existent ``gain'' it offers and b) *not* a suitable replacement for what has been proposed to be removed. -- James ~Yawn And Walk North~ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom) writes: I would like to have `mc' and the two packages it depends on placed into the base set. I think this is a horrendously bad idea. We could then get rid of both `elvis-tiny' and `ae', and be left with a powerful tool that is easy for beginners and experienced folks alike. And we would be left without an editor which works when in single user mode. What a plan. `mc', the Midnight Commander, has a very nice editor built in now. Does it do vi emulation? I didn't think so. `mc' will let you look inside of and install `.deb' files also. Gosh, what a revolutionary concept. I did hear about something else that could do that though. What was it? dekg? dplg? I can't remember. -- James ~Yawn And Walk North~ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Base Set: Suggested additions removals.
I would like to have `mc' and the two packages it depends on placed into the base set. I think this is a horrendously bad idea. Seconded. Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
