subject:"Re\: Bugs in default GNOME etch\?"

Le dimanche 21 janvier 2007 à 12:46 -0300, Margarita Manterola a écrit :
 Hi!
 
 On 1/20/07, Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  There is still work to do, e.g. by
  looking at the insane list of capplets.
 
 If you are referring to the gnome-panel applets.

No, I'm talking about the capplets (the settings menu).

 So, please, do not remove the applets.  Fix the list. i.e. make it
 like it was before.

Novell has written a new shell to replace the control-center. While it
is completely useless bloat for capplets (or at least, it would if
capplets were merged appropriately and useless ones were removed), I
hope it will be used for panel applets insertion.

-- 
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`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 21:32 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
 I have regularly had my GCONF stuff partially corrupted in any case.
 Associations go away, programs crash spontaneously, I look for bugs...
 find the exact same things I have. Solution or workaround? remove *ALL*
 user gconf and gnome settings. Literally nuke them.

You're not forced to listen to any dumb wannabee who tells you to clean
your settings everytime you have a problem.

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.

Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-22 Thread Greg Folkert

On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 15:12 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 21:32 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
  I have regularly had my GCONF stuff partially corrupted in any case.
  Associations go away, programs crash spontaneously, I look for bugs...
  find the exact same things I have. Solution or workaround? remove *ALL*
  user gconf and gnome settings. Literally nuke them.
 
 You're not forced to listen to any dumb wannabee who tells you to clean
 your settings everytime you have a problem.

Yeap, you are right. I am dumb.

But let me ask you this, are you telling me that I need to spend *MUCH*
more time to fix the settings than to remove them and reconstruct my
desktop.

I guess my time isn't worth anything. I bow to your obvious better
knowledge.
/sarcams

Come on Joss, are you *REALLY* that obtuse?
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The technology that is
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-22 Thread cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)

On Monday 22 January 2007 15:08, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 While it is completely useless bloat for capplets (or at least, it would
 if capplets were merged appropriately and useless ones were removed), I 
 hope it will be used for panel applets insertion.

Those capplets were wanted enough to have been made, so obviously they 
scratch someones itch. Or in other words they're usefull to someone even if 
they're not usefull to you personally.

Besides didn't you imply earlier ([1],[2]) that gnome was consolidating 
features, not removing them? So Which is it?

The above paragraph only succeeds in reinforcing my believe that the gnome 
usability engineers cut and ran instead of adressing the actual scaling 
problem. And the above seems to indicate gnome's all set on doing it all 
over again. I'm gonna guess that was not the picture you were trying to 
give?

By all means merge the ones that can be merged, but do everyone a favor and 
do _not_ remove the remaining ones even if you consider them useless: if 
someone went trough all the trouble of creating it and getting it included 
it's obviously usefull to someone.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2007/01/msg00626.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2007/01/msg00643.html
-- 
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Le lundi 22 janvier 2007 à 09:59 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
 Yeap, you are right. I am dumb.

I was not sure of it, but this mail just convinced me you are.

 But let me ask you this, are you telling me that I need to spend *MUCH*
 more time to fix the settings than to remove them and reconstruct my
 desktop.

How do you expect developers to fix bugs that happen in a certain
configuration if you simply wipe it out instead?

-- 
 .''`.
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`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.

Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Le lundi 22 janvier 2007 à 16:44 +0100, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) a
écrit :
 Those capplets were wanted enough to have been made, so obviously they 
 scratch someones itch. Or in other words they're usefull to someone even if 
 they're not usefull to you personally.

Oh, really?

Do you often need to call gstreamer-properties? This is the perfect
example of a useless feature. There should be good autodetection of the
default audio and video output, and in fact it is already here. Anything
else should be exceptional, and if the capplet should probably remain
available from the command line, it shouldn't remain in the menu.

Do you really think nautilus-file-management-properties is needed in the
menu? These are settings specific to nautilus navigation, and they are
available from every open nautilus window. Surely you'd expect nautilus
settings to be available from the panel and not in nautilus...

 The above paragraph only succeeds in reinforcing my believe that the gnome 
 usability engineers cut and ran instead of adressing the actual scaling 
 problem. And the above seems to indicate gnome's all set on doing it all 
 over again. I'm gonna guess that was not the picture you were trying to 
 give?

Take the pictures you want. I'm not a photographer.

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.

Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-22 Thread Greg Folkert

On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 17:30 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le lundi 22 janvier 2007 à 09:59 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
  Yeap, you are right. I am dumb.
 
 I was not sure of it, but this mail just convinced me you are.
 
  But let me ask you this, are you telling me that I need to spend *MUCH*
  more time to fix the settings than to remove them and reconstruct my
  desktop.
 
 How do you expect developers to fix bugs that happen in a certain
 configuration if you simply wipe it out instead?

I guess you are an obtuse useless developer, as you clipped out the
context. Choosing to only make snide remarks to nit and picks,
conveniently chosen to make me look like I don't know what I am talking
about. 

I am telling you right now, that the BUGS of which I experience, I
discover the bugs in bugs.d.o. Exactly the same problems...
workarounds offered by the developers are typically non-existent and
typically are tagged not reproducible and closed with admonishment to
the bug-submitter.

Now you'd expect that from Debian, being the way Debian works. But I
switch to GNOME, I find them same or similar derned bugs in
bugzilla.g.o. Also with things like WONTFIX (being obsolete or feature
removed)or Not Reproducible or other ways to close the them .

I guess, GNOME snobbism flows out from the core.

I hope you realize what your are doing. Its comments like you have made
that keeps the reputation of the GNOME team and GNOME Distro teams it
the negative when you try to belittle and try to humiliate the people
that would like to use the product of your labors. It is more and more
clear the whole GNOME developer gang is just that.
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Le lundi 22 janvier 2007 à 13:10 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
 I am telling you right now, that the BUGS of which I experience, I
 discover the bugs in bugs.d.o. Exactly the same problems...
 workarounds offered by the developers are typically non-existent and
 typically are tagged not reproducible and closed with admonishment to
 the bug-submitter.

Oh, right. Now, you're blaming GNOME for the way Christian Marillat used
to deal with bugs. Fine.

 I hope you realize what your are doing. Its comments like you have made
 that keeps the reputation of the GNOME team and GNOME Distro teams it
 the negative when you try to belittle and try to humiliate the people
 that would like to use the product of your labors. It is more and more
 clear the whole GNOME developer gang is just that.

People who use the software and report bugs when they find some are more
likely to get support than those bashing on irrelevant mailing lists and
spreading unclear accusations.

You think you can make GNOME better by spreading rumors. I think I can
make GNOME better by co-maintaining the packages. Believe it or not, the
latter approach is more efficient.
-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-22 Thread cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)

On Monday 22 January 2007 18:05, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le lundi 22 janvier 2007 à 16:44 +0100, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) a
 écrit :
  Those capplets were wanted enough to have been made, so obviously they
  scratch someones itch. Or in other words they're usefull to someone
  even if they're not usefull to you personally.

 Oh, really?

 Do you often need to call gstreamer-properties? This is the perfect
 example of a useless feature.  

Me? nope, but then I'm not an audiophile, and I'm guessing they both want 
and need that kind of control often. This is the whole point:

 ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL

 if the capplet should probably remain available from the command line, it
 shouldn't remain in the menu. 

Right, cause gnome is a graphical environment, so by all means lets rip out 
the graphical way of doing things, who needs anything but a command line 
anyway...

How about a more sensible approach, like oh say:
have it configurable which capplets are shown in the menu, with a sensible  
default list not showing any of the 'insane' ones?

But I guess that's not the gnome way, cause that would mean another useless 
configuration option, much faster and easier to just rip it out instead.

 Do you really think nautilus-file-management-properties is needed in the
 menu? These are settings specific to nautilus navigation, and they are
 available from every open nautilus window. Surely you'd expect nautilus
 settings to be available from the panel and not in nautilus...

At first glance this would seem to be a clear case where consolidation is 
both in order and obvious. I don't see any removed features in this case 
(but then I'm not all that familiar with either, as I don't use nautilus 
personal, hence the 'at first glance').

But then does it hurt to have the option to show it in a capplet in the 
menu? (Note that 'option', it doesn't necessarily have to be on by default)

  The above paragraph only succeeds in reinforcing my believe that the
  gnome usability engineers cut and ran instead of adressing the actual
  scaling problem. And the above seems to indicate gnome's all set on
  doing it all over again. I'm gonna guess that was not the picture you
  were trying to give?

 Take the pictures you want. I'm not a photographer.

Sure, I'm just another (ex-)gnome user right? What I was trying to point out 
is this:
1) the gnome approach to usability has a serious image problem and created a
   huge user backlash (disgrunteld ex-gnome users abound)
2) your points here have _not_ helped mend that image, quite the contrary,
   you've only reinforced it

Now if that's what you set out to do, then great. If not you might want to 
reconsider your approach in the future. 
-- 
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-22 Thread Greg Folkert

On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 19:32 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Oh, right. Now, you're blaming GNOME for the way Christian Marillat used
 to deal with bugs. Fine.

I bow GNOME Overlord.

 People who use the software and report bugs when they find some are more
 likely to get support than those bashing on irrelevant mailing lists and
 spreading unclear accusations.
 
 You think you can make GNOME better by spreading rumors. I think I can
 make GNOME better by co-maintaining the packages. Believe it or not, the
 latter approach is more efficient.

I now welcome you, as my extreme GNOME Overlord.

I guess this attempt is done. Same as it ever was.
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-21 Thread Steve Langasek

On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 11:45:32AM +, Sebastian Heinlein wrote:
 You have also to take a look how efficient a way is. Finding a menu entry 
 in a
 long list is quite ineffcient (Fitts' law). Compare the two menus in
 Debian and
 Ubuntu.

It's infinitely easier to find an item in a long menu than it is to find the
same item in a short menu that doesn't include the item in question.

 Furthermore it would be nice if you speak about other people and their
 work more
 respectfully.

It would be nice if more people were doing respectable work. ;-)

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-21 Thread Mike Hommey

On Sun, Jan 21, 2007 at 02:30:46AM -0800, Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 11:45:32AM +, Sebastian Heinlein wrote:
  You have also to take a look how efficient a way is. Finding a menu entry 
  in a
  long list is quite ineffcient (Fitts' law). Compare the two menus in
  Debian and
  Ubuntu.
 
 It's infinitely easier to find an item in a long menu than it is to find the
 same item in a short menu that doesn't include the item in question.

It's easier to find an item in a short menu than in a long menu that is
cluttered by useless stuff.

Mike


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-21 Thread Stephen Gran

This one time, at band camp, Mike Hommey said:
 On Sun, Jan 21, 2007 at 02:30:46AM -0800, Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 11:45:32AM +, Sebastian Heinlein wrote:
   You have also to take a look how efficient a way is. Finding a
   menu entry in a long list is quite ineffcient (Fitts' law).
  
  It's infinitely easier to find an item in a long menu than it is to
  find the same item in a short menu that doesn't include the item in
  question.
 
 It's easier to find an item in a short menu than in a long menu that
 is cluttered by useless stuff.

This could quickly get recursive.  Let me save you the trouble:

while true; do 
  echo kool-aid drinker: it's easier to find an item in a short menu | \
mail -s Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  echo everyone else: it's impossible to find an item that isn't there | \
mail -s Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
done

Thanks,
-- 
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|  : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] |
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|`- http://www.debian.org |
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-21 Thread Yves-Alexis Perez

On dim, 2007-01-21 at 12:31 +, Stephen Gran wrote:
 This could quickly get recursive.  Let me save you the trouble:
 
 while true; do 
   echo kool-aid drinker: it's easier to find an item in a short menu
 | \
 mail -s Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   echo everyone else: it's impossible to find an item that isn't
 there | \
 mail -s Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 done
 

This one isn't really recursive.
-- 
Yves-Alexis


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-21 Thread Debian Oracle

On su, 2007-01-21 at 13:38 +0100, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
 On dim, 2007-01-21 at 12:31 +, Stephen Gran wrote:
  This could quickly get recursive.  Let me save you the trouble:
  
  while true; do 
echo kool-aid drinker: it's easier to find an item in a short menu
  | \
  mail -s Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
echo everyone else: it's impossible to find an item that isn't
  there | \
  mail -s Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  done
  
 
 This one isn't really recursive.

The Debian Oracle has detected an implicit question!

Loops are, in fact, recursion! More importantly, they are an optimized
version of tail recursion. The loop above could be written as:

debian_discussion_about_gnome_menus()
{
  echo kool-aid drinker: it's easier to find an item in a short menu |
  mail -s Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  echo everyone else: it's impossible to find an item that isn't there |
  mail -s Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  debian_discussion_about_gnome-menus
}

In fact, if you use an implementation of your preferred language that
does not optimize tail recursion stack usage, you have a better
simulation of the Debian discussions: eventually the stack will
overflow, and the discussion will end. In real life, Debian discussions
also eventually end, for example when all participants on one side of
the debate graduate from school and no longer have extra free time.
Nifty!

Because the Debian Oracle is in an especially good mood today, you get
an extra answer: the correct, and traditional solution method to the
Dilemma About GNOME Menus in Debian is to make it possible to have
either the GNOME-style menus (short, nothing unnecessary) or the
Debian-style ones (huge, everything is in there, sometimes multiple
times). Everyone can be happy!

You owe the Oracle a pair of snow shoes, a shovel, warm gloves, and a
hair-dryer.



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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-21 Thread Margarita Manterola


Hi!

On 1/20/07, Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There is still work to do, e.g. by
looking at the insane list of capplets.


If you are referring to the gnome-panel applets.  May I remind you
that this list used to be organized in menues, with lines of the same
size of items in the Applications menu.  At those good-old-times, you
could add an applet within two mouse movements.  Now, adding an applet
usually take about half a minute of scrolling through a list that is
uselessly big and finding the stupid applet.

So, please, do not remove the applets.  Fix the list. i.e. make it
like it was before.  it was MUCH better before.  I acknowledge that
the first time you wanted to add something, you might perhaps choose
the wrong menu, so you'd have to go back and select the correct menu.
So, this was fixed by eliminating the menus.  How this could ever be
considered a fix, I could never understand.

--
Besos,
Marga


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-21 Thread David Weinehall

On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 09:32:07PM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
 On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 21:16 +0100, David Weinehall wrote: 
  On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 06:34:18AM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
   On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 11:51 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 04:30 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
 I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans and
 users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
 users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously 
 were
 there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these removals. 

Features. Features, features, features. Do you only want features,
without even knowing whether they are useful? Sorry, usability is not
about features.
   
   Are you telling me that these features I keep see getting removed are
   *NOT* about usability for me? OK, functionality to me... Functionality
   for me determines my usability. It I have to use some archaic command
   like (btw I don't really mind them *IF* they are well documented) but
   like:
   gconftool-2.3-1-9.mark32 -a2 -r4 --/usr/sbin/someothercommand \
   \-\-optionforexternalcommand -32 --etc -e -t-c \
   --corruptmysettingsplease
  
  You *do* know that there is a graphical gconf-editor, right?
  
  [snip]
 
 Umm yes, a clumsy replacement for a former GOOD configuration system.

My mention of the gconf-editor wasn't about whether it's a good or bad
way of configurating a system, just pointing out that your arguments
would be more credible if you didn't use contrived examples to make
seem more complicated than they are.

 Sure, it has paths and other junk... many things are not able to be
 edited or added in gconf-editor. gconf-editor is a pile of crap. No
 better than the cli ones.
 
 I have regularly had my GCONF stuff partially corrupted in any case.
 Associations go away, programs crash spontaneously, I look for bugs...
 find the exact same things I have. Solution or workaround? remove *ALL*
 user gconf and gnome settings. Literally nuke them.

Fascinating.  That's *never* happened here.  Ever.

[snip]

Oh, and by the way, there's very few things I've ever lacked in ways of
configuration in GNOME; in fact, the only thing I can think of is how
focusing works in metacity.  It's implementation of sloppy focus is
quite lousy IMHO, but then again, not even changing the focus setting
through gconf helps that, since it's a lousy implementation, not lack of
configurability that causes my grief.


Regards: David
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-21 Thread Greg Folkert

On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 18:06 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
 On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 09:32:07PM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
  On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 21:16 +0100, David Weinehall wrote: 
   On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 06:34:18AM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 11:51 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 04:30 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
  I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans 
  and
  users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
  users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously 
  were
  there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these removals. 
 
 Features. Features, features, features. Do you only want features,
 without even knowing whether they are useful? Sorry, usability is not
 about features.

Are you telling me that these features I keep see getting removed are
*NOT* about usability for me? OK, functionality to me... Functionality
for me determines my usability. It I have to use some archaic command
like (btw I don't really mind them *IF* they are well documented) but
like:
gconftool-2.3-1-9.mark32 -a2 -r4 --/usr/sbin/someothercommand \
\-\-optionforexternalcommand -32 --etc -e -t-c \
--corruptmysettingsplease
   
   You *do* know that there is a graphical gconf-editor, right?
   
   [snip]
  
  Umm yes, a clumsy replacement for a former GOOD configuration system.
 
 My mention of the gconf-editor wasn't about whether it's a good or bad
 way of configurating a system, just pointing out that your arguments
 would be more credible if you didn't use contrived examples to make
 seem more complicated than they are.

Then why mention it at all? My contrived example is plausible.

  Sure, it has paths and other junk... many things are not able to be
  edited or added in gconf-editor. gconf-editor is a pile of crap. No
  better than the cli ones.
  
  I have regularly had my GCONF stuff partially corrupted in any case.
  Associations go away, programs crash spontaneously, I look for bugs...
  find the exact same things I have. Solution or workaround? remove *ALL*
  user gconf and gnome settings. Literally nuke them.
 
 Fascinating.  That's *never* happened here.  Ever.

Oh, sorry. I guess this is my bad, I guess *I AM* the only one. In that
case. Then move along now, nothing to see here, keep you eyes to
yourself

 
 [snip]
 
 Oh, and by the way, there's very few things I've ever lacked in ways of
 configuration in GNOME; in fact, the only thing I can think of is how
 focusing works in metacity.  It's implementation of sloppy focus is
 quite lousy IMHO, but then again, not even changing the focus setting
 through gconf helps that, since it's a lousy implementation, not lack of
 configurability that causes my grief.

I guess you have tricked yourself into working like a newbie.
-- 
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 02:50 +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 02:27:23PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
  Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
   should we?
  
   Contrary to us, GNOME (in this case RedHat) actually employs usability
   experts.  Who are we to think we know better?
  
  Actual users?
 
 I'm not quite sure what your point is.  Are you asserting the GNOME
 usability engineers are not actually using GNOME?

I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans and
users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously were
there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these removals. 

For myself personally GNOME 1.4 was very well featured. Though it wasn't
put together as well as 2.16 is today. The removal of the easy to use
mechanisms to change behavior has been a thorn in my side something
awful. This trend to initial users having a safe experience is just
about killing me.

If you take a look at all the project trying to add those things being
taken out by the GNOME team and its usability experts with the drone of
SANE DEFAULTS and then taking away the means to change them once you
get past the safeness of that... the noise to me is deafening.

They routinely and as if by willful decisions, ignore the mid-level
user to power user as *NOT* being the target audience. At least
acknowledge that by help the beginning users... please DO NOT HARM or
HINDER these learned user.

well, to be honest, I only use GNOME now because as an integrated
desktop, at the moment: It is THE SUCKEST THE LEASTEST

If you do not understand my meaning, think if Devil's Pie, the
power-toyz add-ons, this recent addiction with eye-candy again (much
similar to what GNOME and SAW-FISH/MILL could already do years ago.

While, I praise the GNOME teams for the timely march on-ward, I also
curse them for the ignorant ways of calling balderdash to anything to
improve the computing experience of the very skilled user or power
user

I am sorry, I've read to much from other people on this subject. I've
also voiced my opinion from time to time... in rants. But the progress I
still see (yes progress, but what kind I don't know) is disappointing.

That is all for now. And probably quite a while, unless someone gets my
ire up on the subject again.
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The technology that is
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 04:30 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
 I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans and
 users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
 users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously were
 there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these removals. 

Features. Features, features, features. Do you only want features,
without even knowing whether they are useful? Sorry, usability is not
about features.

I, for one, thank those usability engineers for removing these tons of
useless features that clutter menus, desktop, applications, and dialog
boxes. You can gain much productivity by removing them, and that doesn't
only account for newbie users. There is still work to do, e.g. by
looking at the insane list of capplets.

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread Stephen Gran

This one time, at band camp, Josselin Mouette said:
 Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 04:30 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
  I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans and
  users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
  users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously were
  there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these removals. 
 
 Features. Features, features, features. Do you only want features,
 without even knowing whether they are useful? Sorry, usability is not
 about features.

And that really just proves Greg's point, doesn't it?  Clearly the
features were useful to Greg, or he wouldn't have written that email.
Thankfully, the GNOME developers know better.

 I, for one, thank those usability engineers for removing these tons of
 useless features that clutter menus, desktop, applications, and dialog
 boxes.

I, for one, welcome our new GNOME overlords.
-- 
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|  : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] |
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|`- http://www.debian.org |
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 11:51 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 04:30 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
  I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans and
  users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
  users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously were
  there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these removals. 
 
 Features. Features, features, features. Do you only want features,
 without even knowing whether they are useful? Sorry, usability is not
 about features.

Are you telling me that these features I keep see getting removed are
*NOT* about usability for me? OK, functionality to me... Functionality
for me determines my usability. It I have to use some archaic command
like (btw I don't really mind them *IF* they are well documented) but
like:
gconftool-2.3-1-9.mark32 -a2 -r4 --/usr/sbin/someothercommand \
\-\-optionforexternalcommand -32 --etc -e -t-c \
--corruptmysettingsplease

I'm not really thrilled.

 I, for one, thank those usability engineers for removing these tons of
 useless

USELESS, maybe to many. Remember in GNOME 1.4 there was a expertise
setting for the amount and number of settings shown? I do. Sure, as a
default provide only the basics. But let me install the medium or
power or stupidly-insane settings user. It doesn't hurt to partition
them that way... why remove them IF the basic user won't have access to
them until they realize there is other config managers for the medium or
power or insanity-based users.

  features that clutter menus, desktop, applications, and dialog
 boxes. You 

s/You/Some/

  can gain much productivity by removing them, and that doesn't
 only account for newbie users. There is still work to do, e.g. by
 looking at the insane list of capplets.

Sure, continue driving the people that made GNOME popular early on. Good
plan.

-- 
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)

On Saturday 20 January 2007 11:51, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 04:30 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
  I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans and
  users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
  users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously
  were there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these
  removals.

 Features. Features, features, features. Do you only want features,
 without even knowing whether they are useful? Sorry, usability is not
 about features.

Wikipedia defines usability as :
  Usability is a term used to denote the ease with which people can employ a
  particular tool or other human-made object in order to achieve a
  particular goal.

ISO 9241-11 (1998) Guidance on Usability, defines usability as:
  The extent to which a product can be used by specified users to achieve  
  specified goals with effectiveness, efficiency and satisfaction in a 
  specified context of use.

By taking out features you decrease the number of goals you can use the 
software for. If you can't use the software for a certain goal at all then 
it's less usable for that goal then a package with an interface from hell 
that does let you addres that goal.

= by definition taking out (lots of) features decreases the maximum
   usability of the software.

 I, for one, thank those usability engineers for removing these tons of
 useless features that clutter menus, desktop, applications, and dialog
 boxes. 

IMHO that just means those usability engineers took the easy way out of a 
scaling problem: instead of adressing the actual problem, they just made 
sure they didn't have to deal with it.

Yes, organizing lots of features so all them are easy to use is a very hard 
problem. BUT those fabled usabillity engineers not only turned tail and 
ran, they mobbed everyone who dared to point they did.

As far as I'm conserned the emperor isn't waring any clothes.

 You can gain much productivity by removing them, and that doesn't 
 only account for newbie users. 

Every one of those features came to be because it scratched someones itch, 
judging by the amount of rants and complaints I've seen about those removed 
features those itches still need scratching. 

Thus Gnome has actively stopped a whole slew of users from scratching their 
itches the way they did before. IMHO that's monementally stupid.
-- 
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 13:34 +0100, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) a
écrit :
 By taking out features you decrease the number of goals you can use the 
 software for. If you can't use the software for a certain goal at all then 
 it's less usable for that goal then a package with an interface from hell 
 that does let you addres that goal.

That's what happens when you do it stupidly.

 IMHO that just means those usability engineers took the easy way out of a 
 scaling problem: instead of adressing the actual problem, they just made 
 sure they didn't have to deal with it.

Why do you assume it? The usability processes in GNOME imply, on the
contrary, that there is a good way to achieve every use case. Improving
usability often means replacing two non-optimal ways of doing something
by a single, better way of doing it. You only see the two things
removed, through the deforming glasses of the rumor, and miss the
overall usability improvement.

-- 
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: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread Ross Burton

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 06:34 -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
 Are you telling me that these features I keep see getting removed are
 *NOT* about usability for me? OK, functionality to me... Functionality
 for me determines my usability. It I have to use some archaic command
 like (btw I don't really mind them *IF* they are well documented) but
 like:

If you have any particular pet features that have been removed in GNOME
and you can make a valid case for their re-inclusion, then file a bug.
Contrary to popular belief GNOME isn't about removing as many features
as possible.

Ross
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 14:13 +, Ross Burton wrote:
 On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 06:34 -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
  Are you telling me that these features I keep see getting removed are
  *NOT* about usability for me? OK, functionality to me... Functionality
  for me determines my usability. It I have to use some archaic command
  like (btw I don't really mind them *IF* they are well documented) but
  like:
 
 If you have any particular pet features that have been removed in GNOME
 and you can make a valid case for their re-inclusion, then file a bug.
 Contrary to popular belief GNOME isn't about removing as many features
 as possible.

I understand that Ross. But, I would be ONE of those NON-Target users so
often used to defend the decisions/directions of the almighty Havoc's
teachings.

Sorry Ross, but I long ago gave up trying to change minds (about 2.4ish
to 2.6ish) when I saw that they were set in fast setting concrete. Yes,
I know you are one of the ones at least trying to help the situation. I
have (err, have had) your burtonini repository in my sources.list in the
past. So I do know your place and your work.

In any case, I see lots of bugs that needs fixing, as the easiest way to
fix then is to remove the offending feature that isn't *REALLY* needed
once the usability experts jump on it.

Yes, I also know, that I have not opened any bugs, but who am I in the
GNOME community? I'll tell you who... a big fat nobody. The powers that
be, that read these GNOME wishlist/case justification bugs look at me...
see bug filed by a bug, squash it as I have zero rank to them to
change the mind of the GNOME team. Oh, just to be sure, I've had some
real doozies with a few on the GNOME team. One explained to me...
EXACTLY how much impact a single Power User filing a bug for
re-inclusion or halting removal of said features... it increases the
fervor at which this stuff is rejected.(1)

So, unless something has drastically changed since ~2003-2005 time
frame, I seriously doubt (know) I won't have any impact to scratch my
itch, even *IF* I included a PERFECT set of patches.

I truly thank you for your efforts to help those of us cast aside, not
being in the target audience, to be more comfortable and productive in
the GNOME Desktop Environment.

1 == Now mind you I can't find the reference to it at the moment. And
really I am not inclined to devote more than the 10 minutes I've spent
looking for it.
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)

On Saturday 20 January 2007 14:21, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 13:34 +0100, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) a
  IMHO that just means those usability engineers took the easy way out of
  a scaling problem: instead of adressing the actual problem, they just
  made sure they didn't have to deal with it.

 Why do you assume it? The usability processes in GNOME imply, on the
 contrary, that there is a good way to achieve every use case. 

 Improving usability often means replacing two non-optimal ways of doing
 something by a single, better way of doing it.
 
no disagreement here, provided that's possible, it often isn't

 You only see the two things removed, through the deforming glasses of the
 rumor, and miss the overall usability improvement.

So Gnome has obviously not 'removed tons of features' (your words), they've 
instead consolidated features, replacing multiple features with single 
better features all over the place?
And I suppose the mountains of rants and complaints on the subject are all 
from (power) users that failed to find the new consolidated features, 
right?

Off course:
- if so you have a usability problem (as clearly indicated by lots of power
  users not finding the consolidated features)
- if not, my point stands
-- 
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread David Weinehall

On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 06:34:18AM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
 On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 11:51 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
  Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 04:30 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
   I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans and
   users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
   users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously were
   there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these removals. 
  
  Features. Features, features, features. Do you only want features,
  without even knowing whether they are useful? Sorry, usability is not
  about features.
 
 Are you telling me that these features I keep see getting removed are
 *NOT* about usability for me? OK, functionality to me... Functionality
 for me determines my usability. It I have to use some archaic command
 like (btw I don't really mind them *IF* they are well documented) but
 like:
 gconftool-2.3-1-9.mark32 -a2 -r4 --/usr/sbin/someothercommand \
 \-\-optionforexternalcommand -32 --etc -e -t-c \
 --corruptmysettingsplease

You *do* know that there is a graphical gconf-editor, right?

[snip]


Regards: David
-- 
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//  ~   //  Diamond-white roses of fire //
\)  http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/   Beautiful hoar-frost   (/


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 15:21 +0100, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) a
écrit :
 So Gnome has obviously not 'removed tons of features' (your words), they've 
 instead consolidated features, replacing multiple features with single 
 better features all over the place?
 And I suppose the mountains of rants and complaints on the subject are all 
 from (power) users that failed to find the new consolidated features, 
 right?
 
 Off course:
 - if so you have a usability problem (as clearly indicated by lots of power
   users not finding the consolidated features)

The most important drawback of this process is indeed that power users
can get lost across upgrades, because the immediate effect they notice
is this action doesn't work anymore.

This is a general problem in Debian, as a constantly evolving system.
Many user and developer habits can become quickly obsolete, and it's not
an easy task to push the information.
-- 
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: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread Stephen Gran

This one time, at band camp, David Weinehall said:
 On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 06:34:18AM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
  It I have to use some archaic command
  like (btw I don't really mind them *IF* they are well documented) but
  like:
  gconftool-2.3-1-9.mark32 -a2 -r4 --/usr/sbin/someothercommand \
  \-\-optionforexternalcommand -32 --etc -e -t-c \
  --corruptmysettingsplease
 
 You *do* know that there is a graphical gconf-editor, right?

Is it called regedit.exe?
-- 
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|  : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] |
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|`- http://www.debian.org |
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-20 Thread Luca Capello

Hello!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:48:03 +0100, Loïc Minier wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 16, 2007, Luca Capello wrote:
 first of all, I posted to d-d because I think the problem is not
 restricted to GNOME, but if I'm wrong, please continue this
 discussion to debian-gtk-gnome (which I cc:ed) and cc: me please
 (not needed for d-d, I read it).

 Indeed, not only GNOME is concerned, but bug reports are often
 reassigned when needs be, so next time you discover some issues you
 may want to fill them directly as you discover them in the BTS.

Well, we're talking about a general bug (the GNOME desktop installed
by default on etch isn't completely well-suited), which is composed
by small bugs, sometimes in more than 10 packages.  So, I preferred
wrote a big mail instead of filing 20 bugs.  Moreover, I wasn't
sure they're all bugs and I wasn't aware of precedent discussion about
them.

[skipping comments about the Debian menu because they have been
discussed later in the thread]

 5) some programs aren't present in the Debian menu:
  alacarte, gnome-btdownload

 No idea about these.  You're welcome to file bugs if it makes sense
 to have them in the menu.

Please see bugs #407747 [1] and #407750 [2] for alacarte and bug
#407753 [3] for gnome-btdownload.

 8) the gnomebaker window doesn't start big enough to include all the
buttons (this is clearly a bug, which strangely hasn't been
reported yet).

 Completely unrelated, please see with the gnomebaker package's BTS /
 maintainer.

This is bug #407254 [4].

Another strange thing is that the default GNOME comes with grdesktop,
which has support only for the RemoteDesktop protocol.  At the same
time, however, vino is installed by default [5].  Thus, if a user
wants to share his GNOME desktop, he needs to install at least
vncviewer.  Isn't better to install tsclient (which supports RDP and
VNC by default) instead of grdesktop?

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

Footnotes: 
[1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=407747
[2] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=407750
[3] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=407753
[4] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=407254
[5] vino's entry in the GNOME Preference dialog has unfortunately a
misleading name, because it could lead the user to think that he
will share his GNOME desktop with the RemoteDesktop protocol,
while the VNC one is used instead...


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 21:16 +0100, David Weinehall wrote: 
 On Sat, Jan 20, 2007 at 06:34:18AM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote:
  On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 11:51 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
   Le samedi 20 janvier 2007 à 04:30 -0500, Greg Folkert a écrit :
I would assert they are not listening to their former BIGGEST fans and
users. You can easily find droves rants/discussions of current GNOME
users very disgruntled with the REMOVAL of features that previously were
there. Some users are now FORMER GNOME users due to these removals. 
   
   Features. Features, features, features. Do you only want features,
   without even knowing whether they are useful? Sorry, usability is not
   about features.
  
  Are you telling me that these features I keep see getting removed are
  *NOT* about usability for me? OK, functionality to me... Functionality
  for me determines my usability. It I have to use some archaic command
  like (btw I don't really mind them *IF* they are well documented) but
  like:
  gconftool-2.3-1-9.mark32 -a2 -r4 --/usr/sbin/someothercommand \
  \-\-optionforexternalcommand -32 --etc -e -t-c \
  --corruptmysettingsplease
 
 You *do* know that there is a graphical gconf-editor, right?
 
 [snip]

Umm yes, a clumsy replacement for a former GOOD configuration system.

Sure, it has paths and other junk... many things are not able to be
edited or added in gconf-editor. gconf-editor is a pile of crap. No
better than the cli ones.

I have regularly had my GCONF stuff partially corrupted in any case.
Associations go away, programs crash spontaneously, I look for bugs...
find the exact same things I have. Solution or workaround? remove *ALL*
user gconf and gnome settings. Literally nuke them.

I sure love a (un-)reliable configuration system being pushed on me this
way, piece of crap. Regularly, I get a Fresh desktop to configure...
WEE!

Come on, continuous refreshment is REALLY good for someone that needs to
get work done... yeah wasting time fixing things to work the way he
wants.

Or, I can just adjust the way I work to be a NEW USER all the time...
*GREAT* I now get to work like a completely useless computer user... to
get my stuff done! YEAH! Way to go TEAM GNOME!

This happens FAR to often to be unrelated and rare. Or maybe I guess I
really am a troublesome user.

Pardon me while I wipe up the severe sarcasm spillage.
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The technology that is
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-19 Thread Miles Bader

Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
 should we?

 Contrary to us, GNOME (in this case RedHat) actually employs usability
 experts.  Who are we to think we know better?

Actual users?

-Miles

-- 
`...the Soviet Union was sliding in to an economic collapse so comprehensive
 that in the end its factories produced not goods but bads: finished products
 less valuable than the raw materials they were made from.'  [The Economist]


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-19 Thread Miles Bader

Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Having eog and evince in the menu serves the I want to look at a file I
 know I have on my disk case. But you can open the file in the same
 number of clicks but with a better interface, by launching a nautilus
 window.

Better interface for some people perhaps.  I don't run Nautilus at all
(and don't want to, it's simply not a very nice program), but I
certainly use Gnome apps to look at files.

The Gnome project has apparently developed an enormous blindspot because
of their fixation with novice users, but Debian need not follow this.
That's the beauty of free software.

-Miles
-- 
`Cars give people wonderful freedom and increase their opportunities.
 But they also destroy the environment, to an extent so drastic that
 they kill all social life' (from _A Pattern Language_)


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-19 Thread Michael Banck

On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 02:27:23PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
 Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
  should we?
 
  Contrary to us, GNOME (in this case RedHat) actually employs usability
  experts.  Who are we to think we know better?
 
 Actual users?

I'm not quite sure what your point is.  Are you asserting the GNOME
usability engineers are not actually using GNOME?


Michael

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the various types (I just couldn't stand the void locps anymore)
-- Marcus Brinkmann
Aw, thomas was so proud of that...
-- Miles Bader


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-18 Thread sean finney

On Thu, 2007-01-18 at 01:25 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 Not all of us are using window managers that grok .desktop
  entries.  Indeed, I would think that instead of having gnome menus,
  kde menus, and Debian menus, we should dump the first two before we
  dump the latter, since the Debian menu is something that we control,
  and is something that benefits _all_ Debian users, not just a subset.

though honestly, i think the debian menu is inferior to the upstream
menu layout found in kde/gnome from a user standpoint.  perhaps i'm not
the only one who finds the debian menu a little clunky, crufty and out
of date?  that's not to say i don't appreciate what it does.

ideally, there ought to be some kind of way to either
generate .menu/xpm-format files from .desktop files or vice versa (with
appropriate automagical section mapping).


sean


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-18 Thread Loïc Minier

On Thu, Jan 18, 2007, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 Because as a Debian maintainer of gnome programs that work
  even when you are not using gnome, you are not just supporting people
  who use gnome, you are supporting _all_ Debian users.

 Yes, but if 90% of the users of these packages do not use the Debian
 menu it gets lower priority than the other tasks.  Beside, my remark is
 taken out of context: it was not meant to imply we should drop the
 Debian menu altogether as you imply, but as a criticism of the current
 technical problems of the Debian menu which makes it a maintenance
 burden.

-- 
Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-18 Thread Wouter Verhelst

On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 04:42:21PM -0800, Jeff Carr wrote:
 On 01/16/07 20:22, Steve Langasek wrote:
 
  Thus their goal is to help win market share, 
 
 That's an important goal.

How about we don't care about the crap that is market share, but only
about the things that really matter, such as is it useful?

If it takes some getting used to, but after that it's much more useful
than what most people use is what Debian gets known by, then I'm quite
sure our market share will start rising, too.

Yes, market share is useful to some extent, since at the very least it
helps in getting more interesting brains working on our system. But if
market share gets in the way of quality, then market share can go
where the sun don't shine.

-- 
Lo-lan-do Home is where you have to wash the dishes.
  -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-17 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mardi 16 janvier 2007 à 20:22 -0800, Steve Langasek a écrit :
 Real users with brains, instead of the idealized ooh I'm afraid of
 computers eek a mouse kill it kill it!!! novice idiots who are the
 exclusive target of all modern usability testing?
 
 All computer usability studies I've seen in the past 4 or so years have
 focused entirely on how a user who has never seen the interface before is
 able to accomplish tasks, with no consideration given to the long-term
 efficiency of the interfaces that happen to have the lowest inital learning
 curve.  Thus their goal is to help win market share, not to help make users
 more productive, and should be shunned as the near-sighted marketing crap
 they really are.

Instead of wondering who is a usability expert and who is not, which
won't lead anywhere, the real question is: what use case does this or
that feature solve, and how to improve this use case, for both novice
and expert users?

Having eog and evince in the menu serves the I want to look at a file I
know I have on my disk case. But you can open the file in the same
number of clicks but with a better interface, by launching a nautilus
window. You can get it even faster if it's still in the recently used
menu.

In all cases, the most important problem here is that eog is in the menu
while evince is not. Inconsistency is the worst usability problem, and
it is also easily fixed.
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-17 Thread Tim Dijkstra

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 09:28:06 +0100
Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Having eog and evince in the menu serves the I want to look at a file I
 know I have on my disk case. But you can open the file in the same
 number of clicks but with a better interface, by launching a nautilus
 window. You can get it even faster if it's still in the recently used
 menu.

I would say lots of people are used to think in the following way:

I want to open file `foo'.
Start program that handles file `foo'.
Open file `foo'

This works with files that you can edit (abiword files) and those you
can't (pdf). A distinction between the two is IMHO artificial.

Why not facilitate people that work like this and have one more entry
in the menu?

I would say there is even a better case for having evince in the menu
then for eog. eog opens files you can edit with programs like gimp,
while for evince there is no alternative `editor'.

grts Tim


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-17 Thread Sebastian Heinlein


Quoting Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 05:55:53PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 05:22:51PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
 On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:03:15 +0100
 Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Just FYI, I *personally* would prefer an evince entry in the menu as
   well, but I prefer keeping close to the usability policy defined by
   upstream.



 Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
 should we?



Contrary to us, GNOME (in this case RedHat) actually employs usability
experts.  Who are we to think we know better?


Real users with brains, instead of the idealized ooh I'm afraid of
computers eek a mouse kill it kill it!!! novice idiots who are the
exclusive target of all modern usability testing?

All computer usability studies I've seen in the past 4 or so years have
focused entirely on how a user who has never seen the interface before is
able to accomplish tasks, with no consideration given to the long-term
efficiency of the interfaces that happen to have the lowest inital learning
curve.  Thus their goal is to help win market share, not to help make users
more productive, and should be shunned as the near-sighted marketing crap
they really are.


You have also to take a look how efficient a way is. Finding a menu entry in a
long list is quite ineffcient (Fitts' law). Compare the two menus in
Debian and
Ubuntu.

Even the long term user has to scan the complete menu to find a special entry
every time. So it also makes sense to reduce it to the real important entries.
Why should I always see the perhaps never used Esd barometer when I want to
launch a multimedia related app?

Furthermore it would be nice if you speak about other people and their
work more
respectfully.

Cheers,

Sebastian


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-17 Thread Greg Folkert

On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 20:22 -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 05:55:53PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
  On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 05:22:51PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
   On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:03:15 +0100
   Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Just FYI, I *personally* would prefer an evince entry in the menu as
 well, but I prefer keeping close to the usability policy defined by
 upstream.
 
   Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
   should we?
 
  Contrary to us, GNOME (in this case RedHat) actually employs usability
  experts.  Who are we to think we know better?
 
 Real users with brains, instead of the idealized ooh I'm afraid of
 computers eek a mouse kill it kill it!!! novice idiots who are the
 exclusive target of all modern usability testing?

How dare you spake badly of the glorious teachings of the exalted Havoc
Pennington. SANE DEFAULTS!

 All computer usability studies I've seen in the past 4 or so years have
 focused entirely on how a user who has never seen the interface before is
 able to accomplish tasks, with no consideration given to the long-term
 efficiency of the interfaces that happen to have the lowest initial learning
 curve.  Thus their goal is to help win market share, not to help make users
 more productive, and should be shunned as the near-sighted marketing crap
 they really are.

Praise $YOUR_DEITY! There is another that feels this way. It is also
evident others do as well, because of much the customization stuff that
used to be in Gnome 1.4, is being brought back using all these new
add-ons, being window managers and effects adders, coloring styles
controls, window placement based on what they do... etc.

 Cheers :),

Indeed. Cheers!
-- 
greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The technology that is
Stronger, better, faster:  Linux


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-17 Thread Jeff Carr

On 01/16/07 20:22, Steve Langasek wrote:

 Thus their goal is to help win market share, 

That's an important goal.

Have you heard this before: the fear is that not gaining significant
market share will allow Microsoft to effectively render free software
unusable by the average user.

 not to help make users more productive, 

Also an important goal.

 and should be shunned as 

One could send better ideas to the marketing people...

 the near-sighted marketing 

Trying to win market share from Microsoft takes far-forward thinking.

crap they really are.

Let's hope some gems show up in the rough.


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-17 Thread Manoj Srivastava

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 21:43:43 +0100, Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

  I don't see why the Debian menu would be so special that it would
  require me to maintain menu entries in parallel to the .desktop
  files.

Because as a Debian maintainer of gnome programs that work
 even when you are not using gnome, you are not just supporting people
 who use gnome, you are supporting _all_ Debian users.

Not all of us are using window managers that grok .desktop
 entries.  Indeed, I would think that instead of having gnome menus,
 kde menus, and Debian menus, we should dump the first two before we
 dump the latter, since the Debian menu is something that we control,
 and is something that benefits _all_ Debian users, not just a subset.

manoj
-- 
What is now proved was once only imagin'd. William Blake
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt

Luca Capello [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 2) the Debian menu requires xpm icons [2] and in fact only 4 packages
have icons in the png format (ekiga, evince, gimp, gnomemeeting),

To be fair, the .png icon referenced by the evince menu file doesn't
exist...

 4) evince doesn't appear by default on the GNOME Applications list (it
happened on three different installations).  Maybe it's not the
only one, but I cannot find any others.

That is intentional, as evince is not intended to be invoked
directly. Other applications (such as browsers, nautilus) can and will
open files in evince when the user is trying to see a
PDF/PS/DjVu/DVI/... file. 

Marc
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007, Luca Capello wrote:
 first of all, I posted to d-d because I think the problem is not
 restricted to GNOME, but if I'm wrong, please continue this discussion
 to debian-gtk-gnome (which I cc:ed) and cc: me please (not needed for
 d-d, I read it).

 Indeed, not only GNOME is concerned, but bug reports are often
 reassigned when needs be, so next time you discover some issues you may
 want to fill them directly as you discover them in the BTS.  However,
 there's some room for discussion for the class of bugs you are
 reporting here.

 1) some entries in the Debian menu lack the icon
 2) the Debian menu requires xpm icons [2] and in fact only 4 packages
have icons in the png format (ekiga, evince, gimp, gnomemeeting),
but for some packages the xpm icon is really bad
 3) there are different icons for the same entry in the GNOME
Applications list and the Debian menu

 These issues are connected; what you describe is a general problem I
 have with the Debian menu: its XPM requirement and its duplication of
 the menu entries makes it a maintenance burden.

 I can imagine technical solutions to these problems, such as a) making
 XPM optional and automatically generating it when it's not available
 (yes, this might result in an ugly icon in some cases, but at least we
 will have an ugly icon vaguely ressembling the icon, and it might also
 result in nicer icons for PNG capable menu displays), b) using the
 .desktop files upstream provides to automatically register entries in
 the Debian menu (Note that the inverse process exists in menu-xdg :).

 Without this, Debian menu support in Debian packages will always lag
 behind as upstream updates its .desktop files, icons etc. or
 adds/remove programs.


 Another personal problem I have with the Debian menu is that it's
 slightly cluttered with entries useless to me, and it's also of no use
 along of the GNOME menu under GNOME.  This doesn't motivate me (and I
 expect other people) to fix it.

 So, basically, I think Debian menu support for GNOME apps is very low
 priority, and would have deeper problems to solve first.

 4) evince doesn't appear by default on the GNOME Applications list (it
happened on three different installations).  Maybe it's not the
only one, but I cannot find any others.

 This is on purpose, the .desktop file has NoDisplay=true because it
 is expected that you never need to launch evince, but you simply open
 documents from nautilus or your browser and this spawns evince.  This
 is to not clutter the GNOME menu.

 (So, not a bug, a feature.)

 5) some programs aren't present in the Debian menu:
  alacarte, gnome-btdownload

 No idea about these.  You're welcome to file bugs if it makes sense to
 have them in the menu.

 6) gnome-panel gives an .xsession-errors because Unable to open
desktop file epiphany.desktop for panel launcher.  This is normal
as epiphany isn't installed by default, but I'd suggest to install
the firefox.desktop instead.

 I did not see the discussion which lead to the choice of iceweasel as
 the default browser, and I think it would have been a worthwhile
 discussion to make publicly.

 This appears to be Ubuntu's choice as well, but I think the arguments
 brought up back then in the Ubuntu discussion don't apply anymore or
 don't apply to Debian (Epiphany is now as usable as IceWeasel is, and
 the name Firefox is not an argument anymore for Debian).

 I suppose what you're seeing is the result of a discrepancy between the
 default panel layout offered in the gnome-panel package and the
 installed packages.

 Perhaps this matter should be discussed on the debian-desktop@ list, at
 least I wish we would have a strong Debian Desktop decision-taking
 body so we could share ideas and goals and march in the same direction.

 Feel free to file a bug against either tasksel or gnome-panel depending
 on whether you would like to see iceweasel or epiphany on the default
 desktop.

 7) why still Gnomemeeting by default instead of Ekiga (which AFAIK is
the default VoIP client since GNOME 2.14)?

 This is fixed in the gnome-desktop-environment package, but did not
 migrate to testing yet, will happen in a couple of days.

 8) the gnomebaker window doesn't start big enough to include all the
buttons (this is clearly a bug, which strangely hasn't been
reported yet).

 Completely unrelated, please see with the gnomebaker package's BTS /
 maintainer.

   Bye,
-- 
Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mardi 16 janvier 2007 à 02:46 +0100, Luca Capello a écrit :
Is there a practical reason for requesting xpm icons?  No need to
explain if an answer already exists, but I cannot find it.

This is because some menu systems don't understand other formats.

 4) evince doesn't appear by default on the GNOME Applications list (it
happened on three different installations).  Maybe it's not the
only one, but I cannot find any others.

IIRC this is intentional, as evince is a viewer that should only invoked
from programs that have something to view (nautilus, epiphany,
evolution...)

 6) gnome-panel gives an .xsession-errors because Unable to open
desktop file epiphany.desktop for panel launcher.  This is normal
as epiphany isn't installed by default, but I'd suggest to install
the firefox.desktop instead.

Epiphany is not installed by default? If this is the case, I consider it
a very important bug in debian-installer.

Looking at the gnome-desktop task, it installs gnome-desktop-environment
and firefox-gnome-support. Besides, gnome-desktop-environment depends on
epiphany-browser | gnome-www-browser, the latter being provided by
firefox-gnome-support. In this case, I don't know what aptitude does,
but if epiphany doesn't get installed in the end this is *wrong*. The
GNOME desktop as a whole is configured to use epiphany, which has decent
desktop integration, which firefox/iceweasel has not.

Can anyone in debian-boot confirm that the aptitude behaviour leads to
epiphany not being installed? If this the case, what solution would you
suggest? (The obvious solution of not installing the ugly
firefox/iceweasel and confusing users with two browsers having been
repeatedly refused by the d-i team.)

 7) why still Gnomemeeting by default instead of Ekiga (which AFAIK is
the default VoIP client since GNOME 2.14)?

This should be fixed in meta-gnome2 1:2.14.3.5.

-- 
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`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Eddy Petrișor

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Josselin Mouette wrote:
 6) gnome-panel gives an .xsession-errors because Unable to open
desktop file epiphany.desktop for panel launcher.  This is normal
as epiphany isn't installed by default, but I'd suggest to install
the firefox.desktop instead.
 
 Epiphany is not installed by default? If this is the case, I consider it
 a very important bug in debian-installer.

Hmm, AFAIR, it wasn't two weeks ago, and I thought *this* was intentional and 
was happy about it.

 Looking at the gnome-desktop task, it installs gnome-desktop-environment
 and firefox-gnome-support. Besides, gnome-desktop-environment depends on
 epiphany-browser | gnome-www-browser, the latter being provided by
 firefox-gnome-support. In this case, I don't know what aptitude does,
 but if epiphany doesn't get installed in the end this is *wrong*. The
 GNOME desktop as a whole is configured to use epiphany, which has decent
 desktop integration, which firefox/iceweasel has not.
 
 Can anyone in debian-boot confirm that the aptitude behaviour leads to
 epiphany not being installed? If this the case, what solution would you
 suggest? (The obvious solution of not installing the ugly
 firefox/iceweasel and confusing users with two browsers having been
 repeatedly refused by the d-i team.)

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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mardi 16 janvier 2007 à 11:22 +0200, Eddy Petrișor a écrit :
  Epiphany is not installed by default? If this is the case, I consider it
  a very important bug in debian-installer.
 
 Hmm, AFAIR, it wasn't two weeks ago, and I thought *this* was intentional and 
 was happy about it.

On our side, it is not. We have spent efforts in providing an integrated
environment, and this includes epiphany as the default browser, not a
half-assed browser designed for Windows and customised with GNOME
colors.

Until recently, d-i was installing both epiphany and firefox, the reason
being Windows users know firefox. If epiphany doesn't get installed
anymore, this is making things even worse. And now that we have moved to
iceweasel, the Windows argument doesn't hold anymore.

-- 
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: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.

Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:46:45 +0100
Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Luca Capello [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  2) the Debian menu requires xpm icons [2] and in fact only 4 packages
 have icons in the png format (ekiga, evince, gimp, gnomemeeting),
 
 To be fair, the .png icon referenced by the evince menu file doesn't
 exist...
 
  4) evince doesn't appear by default on the GNOME Applications list (it
 happened on three different installations).  Maybe it's not the
 only one, but I cannot find any others.
 
 That is intentional, as evince is not intended to be invoked
 directly. Other applications (such as browsers, nautilus) can and will
 open files in evince when the user is trying to see a
 PDF/PS/DjVu/DVI/... file. 

That is a bogus argument. Why shouldn't I want to fire up evince when I
know I have a pdf/ps/etc file on disk I wan't to read? It has a
normal 'open'-button...

grts


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
   Why shouldn't I want to fire up evince when I
 know I have a pdf/ps/etc file on disk I wan't to read? It has a
 normal 'open'-button...

 Sure, this is possible, and you can add a launcher for evince if you
 really like, or edit your menu, or launch evince from the Run command
 dialog, or from a terminal.

 The presence in the menu has to be weighted against the cluttering.

-- 
Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Hello!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:29:04 +0100, Loïc Minier wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 16, 2007, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
 Why shouldn't I want to fire up evince when I know I have a
 pdf/ps/etc file on disk I wan't to read? It has a normal
 'open'-button...

 Sure, this is possible, and you can add a launcher for evince if you
 really like, or edit your menu, or launch evince from the Run
 command dialog, or from a terminal.

I think a bit of consistency should be used here:

- evince (a document *viewer*) is to be launched from Nautilus -
no GNOME menu entry

- eog (an image *viewer*)should be the same IMHO -
GNOME menu entry

 The presence in the menu has to be weighted against the cluttering.

If I search for a program, I go to the menu list, not on Nautilus
(obviously this is my personal behavior, which can surely be different
From a new user's one).

Moreover, a well-arranged menu is for sure not cluttered and we're
talking about one more entry, while OpenOffice.ord Draw is listed
twice (Graphics and Office) and the same for Gnomebaker (Accessories
and SoundVideo).

Just my 0.02€, I consider this situation as a very minor one, so I
don't bother more :-)

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Joey Hess

Luca Capello wrote:
 7) why still Gnomemeeting by default instead of Ekiga (which AFAIK is
the default VoIP client since GNOME 2.14)?

This is fixed in gnome-desktop-environment 1:2.14.3.5, which is due to
reach etch in 2 days, assuming a freeze exception is requested and
granted for the new version.

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Hello!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:46:45 +0100, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote:
 Luca Capello [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 2) the Debian menu requires xpm icons [2] and in fact only 4
packages have icons in the png format (ekiga, evince, gimp,
gnomemeeting),

 To be fair, the .png icon referenced by the evince menu file doesn't
 exist...

I know and in fact I wrote at point 1:

 some entries in the Debian menu lack the icon:
   evince, yelp, sound-juicer, gnome-cups-manager (both entries),
   ^^
   gnome-utils (gnome-screenshot), gucharmap, foomatic-gui,
   gnome-system-monitor, grdesktop, gsynaptics, ekiga

Thus, evince Debian menu entry has two bugs: not an xpm icon and the
actual png icon is missing (the latter more important IMHO).

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Hello!

NB, if you keep d-d as to: or cc:, please don't cc: me, I read the
list.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:11:36 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Le mardi 16 janvier 2007 à 02:46 +0100, Luca Capello a écrit :
6) gnome-panel gives an .xsession-errors because Unable to open
desktop file epiphany.desktop for panel launcher. This is normal
as epiphany isn't installed by default, but I'd suggest to install
the firefox.desktop instead.

Epiphany is not installed by default? If this is the case, I consider it
a very important bug in debian-installer.
[...]
The GNOME desktop as a whole is configured to use epiphany, which
has decent desktop integration, which firefox/iceweasel has not.

I was also surprised that epiphany wasn't installed by default.

To be sure this is a *bug* (now I consider it for the reason below), I
installed a Debin etch with KDE via the full CD image [1]. Indeed, on
KDE Konqueror is installed by default and it's the default browser
(i.e. the one present in the status bar). Thus, I don't understand
why Debian GNOME should rely on Iceweasel.

Can anyone in debian-boot confirm that the aptitude behaviour leads to
epiphany not being installed? If this the case, what solution would you
suggest? (The obvious solution of not installing the ugly
firefox/iceweasel and confusing users with two browsers having been
repeatedly refused by the d-i team.)

I'd suggest both (i.e. DE's browser and Iceweasel), as it's the case
for Debian KDE. The user will have the epiphany icon on the GNOME
panel, but Iceweasel will still be available in the GNOME menu.

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

Footnotes:
[1]
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/i386/iso-cd/debian-testing-i386-kde-CD-1.iso

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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007, Luca Capello wrote:
 - evince (a document *viewer*) is to be launched from Nautilus -
 no GNOME menu entry
 - eog (an image *viewer*)should be the same IMHO -
 GNOME menu entry

 Yeah, well, the new policy isn't implemented in all programs; I don't
 know whether this is implemented in eog's upstreeam tree already.

 Basically the same remarks as yours are answered by upstream in this
 upstream report:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312399

 Just FYI, I *personally* would prefer an evince entry in the menu as
 well, but I prefer keeping close to the usability policy defined by
 upstream.

 As I said, you're free to edit this to your test.  I didn't test it,
 but I suppose GNOME menu editors can switch evince.desktop to being
 displayed again.

-- 
Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007, Luca Capello wrote:
  2) the Debian menu requires xpm icons [2] and in fact only 4
 packages have icons in the png format (ekiga, evince, gimp,
 gnomemeeting),
  To be fair, the .png icon referenced by the evince menu file doesn't
  exist...
 I know and in fact I wrote at point 1:
  some entries in the Debian menu lack the icon:
evince, yelp, sound-juicer, gnome-cups-manager (both entries),
^^
gnome-utils (gnome-screenshot), gucharmap, foomatic-gui,
gnome-system-monitor, grdesktop, gsynaptics, ekiga
 Thus, evince Debian menu entry has two bugs: not an xpm icon and the
 actual png icon is missing (the latter more important IMHO).

 Fixed in 0.4.0-5.

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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:03:15 +0100
Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Just FYI, I *personally* would prefer an evince entry in the menu as
  well, but I prefer keeping close to the usability policy defined by
  upstream.

Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
should we?

grts Tim

Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:51:29 +0100
Luca Capello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  The presence in the menu has to be weighted against the cluttering.  
 
 If I search for a program, I go to the menu list, not on Nautilus
 (obviously this is my personal behavior, which can surely be different
 From a new user's one).

I don't know. I think 'traditionally' one always had to launch the
correct program from the menu, also on other OSs.

grts Tim


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Michael Banck

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 05:22:51PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
 On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:03:15 +0100
 Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Just FYI, I *personally* would prefer an evince entry in the menu as
   well, but I prefer keeping close to the usability policy defined by
   upstream.
 
 Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
 should we?

Contrary to us, GNOME (in this case RedHat) actually employs usability
experts.  Who are we to think we know better?

The relevant upstream bug is
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312399
if you want to have more information about this.

I suggest to move this thread back to debian-gtk-gnome.


Michael


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Hendrik Sattler

Am Dienstag 16 Januar 2007 17:55 schrieb Michael Banck:
 On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 05:22:51PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
  On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:03:15 +0100
 
  Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just FYI, I *personally* would prefer an evince entry in the menu as
well, but I prefer keeping close to the usability policy defined by
upstream.
 
  Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
  should we?

 Contrary to us, GNOME (in this case RedHat) actually employs usability
 experts.  Who are we to think we know better?

Well, because usability is no science where only one thing is the correct 
thing to do? Are the Gnome usability experts do usability tests with new 
users of Gnome?

Actually, both ways have a good usability from a specific POV, depending which 
parts of a user base (each having specific assumptions about how things work) 
you look at.

 The relevant upstream bug is
 http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312399
 if you want to have more information about this.

If you actually read it, you see the points that were also in the thread, 
here. Either eog and evince (and all other viewers) are to be hidden or both 
should be visible. Everything in between is actually bad usability.
Looking at the problems mentioned in the above URL, it's better to avoid the 
mentioned problems and unhide them for now, and change that when those 
problems are resolved.

And since they are unhidable, the Gnome people show that they were not _that_ 
sure about the thing with the hidden viewers. They weaken their point with 
such a possibility.

HS

Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

Hello!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:03:15 +0100, Loïc Minier wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 16, 2007, Luca Capello wrote:
 - evince (a document *viewer*) is to be launched from Nautilus -
 no GNOME menu entry
 - eog (an image *viewer*)should be the same IMHO -
 GNOME menu entry

 Yeah, well, the new policy isn't implemented in all programs; I
 don't know whether this is implemented in eog's upstreeam tree
 already.

 Basically the same remarks as yours are answered by upstream in this
 upstream report:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312399

Thank you for the useful link.  As I stated in my first post, I didn't
checked for all the bugs I found (I planned to do it only if they're
real bugs).  Now, after having read the evince BTS page, I found it as
bug #341551 [1].

 Just FYI, I *personally* would prefer an evince entry in the menu as
 well, but I prefer keeping close to the usability policy defined by
 upstream.

I completely agree about being synced with upstream, even when it
doesn't follow maintainer's personal preferences.

 As I said, you're free to edit this to your test.  I didn't test it,
 but I suppose GNOME menu editors can switch evince.desktop to being
 displayed again.

As I wrote in my first post, I'm no more a GNOME user, as I use mostly
stumpwm [2] and sometimes ratpoison [3].

Thank you for your time, stopping here for evince in the GNOME menu.

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

Footnotes: 
[1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=341551
[2] http://packages.debian.org/stumpwm
[3] http://packages.debian.org/ratpoison


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread David Weinehall

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 10:48:03AM +0100, Loïc Minier wrote:
[snip]
  5) some programs aren't present in the Debian menu:
   alacarte, gnome-btdownload
 
  No idea about these.  You're welcome to file bugs if it makes sense to
  have them in the menu.

gnome-btdownload:

A simple Gnome interface designed as a mime-sink for BitTorrent files.
 gnome-btdownload allow a user to download files using bittorrent,
 a scatter-gather network.
 .
 Not a front-end, more-or-less just a session dialog. See bittorrent
 for more information.

I think the package description makes it pretty obvious why it's not
present in the menu.

alacarte:

Alacarte is an easy-to-use menu editor for GNOME that can add
 and edit new entries and menus. It works with the freedesktop.org
 menu specification and should work with any desktop environment
 that uses the spec.

Presumably people that want to edit their menus can launch this
application using the launcher.  It's not really the average
everyday tool...

[snip]


PS: My vote for default GNOME browser definitely goes to Epiphany;
Firefox^WIceweasel comes nowhere close to feeling like a real GNOME
application.


Regards: David Weinehall
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Julien Cristau

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 18:55:32 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:

 PS: My vote for default GNOME browser definitely goes to Epiphany;
 Firefox^WIceweasel comes nowhere close to feeling like a real GNOME
 application.
 
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-changes/2007/01/msg00952.html

Cheers,
Julien


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mardi 16 janvier 2007 à 18:59 +0100, Julien Cristau a écrit :
 On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 18:55:32 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
 
  PS: My vote for default GNOME browser definitely goes to Epiphany;
  Firefox^WIceweasel comes nowhere close to feeling like a real GNOME
  application.
  
 http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-changes/2007/01/msg00952.html

Wow, that was fast. Thanks, Joey. You even added epiphany-extensions
before I had a chance to ask for it :)
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Ross Burton

On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 18:55 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
 alacarte:
 
 Alacarte is an easy-to-use menu editor for GNOME that can add
  and edit new entries and menus. It works with the freedesktop.org
  menu specification and should work with any desktop environment
  that uses the spec.
 
 Presumably people that want to edit their menus can launch this
 application using the launcher.  It's not really the average
 everyday tool...

Isn't this invoked from right clicking on Applications?

Ross
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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Sven Arvidsson

On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 18:44 +, Ross Burton wrote:
 On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 18:55 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
  alacarte:
  
  Alacarte is an easy-to-use menu editor for GNOME that can add
   and edit new entries and menus. It works with the freedesktop.org
   menu specification and should work with any desktop environment
   that uses the spec.
  
  Presumably people that want to edit their menus can launch this
  application using the launcher.  It's not really the average
  everyday tool...
 
 Isn't this invoked from right clicking on Applications?

It is if you are running gnome-panel 2.16, but not in 2.14 (Etch) I
think. 

Anyway, I think the original poster complained about the lack of a menu
entry for Alacarte in the Debian menu system.

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http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 760BDD22


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:55:53 +0100
Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 05:22:51PM +0100, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
  On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:03:15 +0100
  Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just FYI, I *personally* would prefer an evince entry in the menu as
well, but I prefer keeping close to the usability policy defined by
upstream.
  
  Well we shouldn't keep ourselves hostage of stupid upstream behaviour,
  should we?
 
 Contrary to us, GNOME (in this case RedHat) actually employs usability
 experts.  Who are we to think we know better?

You'll see that these so-called experts will be arguing next that
you're not supposed to launch it from a terminal and will move it from
the standard $PATH to /usr/lib/gnome or something

grrr

Tim

Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

2007-01-16 Thread Bernhard R. Link

* Lo?c Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070116 10:50]:
  I can imagine technical solutions to these problems, such as a) making
  XPM optional and automatically generating it when it's not available
  (yes, this might result in an ugly icon in some cases, but at least we
  will have an ugly icon vaguely ressembling the icon, and it might also
  result in nicer icons for PNG capable menu displays), 

You can just translate the icons yourself. If you consider them ugly,
just add a new field for nice icons and start persuade people to
tell their menu methods to use those settings first. (with most
every admin and most of the time even user can just change that with
a single edit of the menu-methods file).

 b) using the
  .desktop files upstream provides to automatically register entries in
  the Debian menu (Note that the inverse process exists in menu-xdg :).
 
  Without this, Debian menu support in Debian packages will always lag
  behind as upstream updates its .desktop files, icons etc. or
  adds/remove programs.

Well, to be perhaps a bit too frank: a maintainer that cannot cope with
menu files should consider orphaning a package. If you do not even know
which programs appear and vanish, you simply have lost. And simply
copying upstream decisions for names and sections or even icons will
simply make out menu a total mess, as different upstreams will have
different rules.

I hope people will not suggest next to not follow FHS, but install
everything where upstream thinks is the best place to put it, as
Debian packages cleary lack behind because we don't just put it
whereever it ends up... /sarkasm

Hochachtungsvoll,
  Bernhard R. Link


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
 * Lo?c Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070116 10:50]:
   I can imagine technical solutions to these problems, such as a) making
   XPM optional and automatically generating it when it's not available
   (yes, this might result in an ugly icon in some cases, but at least we
   will have an ugly icon vaguely ressembling the icon, and it might also
   result in nicer icons for PNG capable menu displays), 
 You can just translate the icons yourself.

 I want to spare me the time to do the update manually, but you suggest
 I augment the amount of manual work.  Would the Debian menu system do
 this for me, I wouldn't have to.  I usually prefer it when machines do
 the repetitive instead of me.

If you consider them ugly,
 just add a new field for nice icons and start persuade people to
 tell their menu methods to use those settings first.

 Why reinvent the wheel in the Debian menu system?  Why would I want to
 convert nicely looking upstream icons to an old format which can only
 look uglier?  All desktop environments support pngs, and even svgs.
 And I do not benefit of the Debian menu system personally, I only see
 it as cluttering my GNOME menu, so I prefer spending my time in things
 which improve Debian as well, but which I enjoy doing and don't
 consider useless.

  b) using the
   .desktop files upstream provides to automatically register entries in
   the Debian menu (Note that the inverse process exists in menu-xdg :).
  
   Without this, Debian menu support in Debian packages will always lag
   behind as upstream updates its .desktop files, icons etc. or
   adds/remove programs.
 
 Well, to be perhaps a bit too frank: a maintainer that cannot cope with
 menu files should consider orphaning a package.

 I actually don't think orphaning packages make them any better.

 You're welcome to join pkg-gnome and fix the Debian menu entries.  In
 fact, any help is welcome, not just on fixing menu entries.  Hop in
 #gnome-debian on GIMPNet, and I'll be happy to guide you in
 participating to tasks of the team.

 If you do not even know
 which programs appear and vanish, you simply have lost.

 Sorry, but people make mistakes.  This is why we avoid duplicating data
 in databases, and we avoid duplicating code in programs.  I don't see
 why the Debian menu would be so special that it would require me to
 maintain menu entries in parallel to the .desktop files.


 You've taken the time to criticize my personal position with
 respect to the menu system, I suggest you also take the time to read
 the technical proposals I made to improve the menu system.
   The Debian menu system will not magically become useful to me, but at
 least it will automatically cover packages of maintainers which do not
 make it a priority to support the menu system fully in all their
 packages.

-- 
Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Bugs in default GNOME etch?