Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Quoting Filipus Klutiero (chea...@gmail.com): I must still thank you for sending a report. My first reaction was Finally, I am just disappointed by the content. I am disappointed by your followup and insistance. To make it clear (sorry readers, you'll need a translation tool but I need to use the words I want to use and not my usual approximative English), let's do this in my native language which you do read as well as Arthur: Je suis extrêmement en colère, Philippe, et c'est rare. Je trouve tes messages dans ce fil de discussion totalement déplacés . Tu voudrais démotiver un de nos meilleurs contributeurs que tu ne t'y prendrais pas mieux. Or, en plusieurs années de GSOC, je ne t'ai jamais vu participer à celui-ci. J'espère donc qu'Arthur notamment saura faire la part des choses et laisser tes commentaires à la place qu'ils n'auraient jamais du quitter. Je n'aime pas être en colère en public, mais je pense que là tu as dépassé les bornes. Le travail du GSOC cette année a été un des plus productifs pour Debian et Arthur a pris grand soin de tenir le projet au courant. Il s'est notamment dépensé sans compter son temps pour que les étudiants participent à Debconf et utilisent cette occasion unique de parler de leur travaux. Etceux qui étaient là à DC10le savent très bien. Aller suggérer un manque de transparence ou de la négligence est insultant. (no need to send private answers or IRC queries, they'll be ignored) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Quoting Obey Arthur Liu (art...@milliways.fr): (That said, THANKS for doing it, I imagine it's quite a bit of work and I share your enthusiasm that it looks like many of the students will stay with Debian even after the GSoC projects are finished.) Thanks. We all hope they (you students!) do. Yes. Thanks for the work you did for the GSOC this year, and the year before, Arthur. I think that these GSOC years have been a great success for Debian and already gave great results, at least for the parts I witnessed in the respective development lists (the two d-i releated projects, and developments for apt and aptitude). You really deserve tons of thanks for your work *including the report you posted*. Without all this work, there wouldn't have been any GSOC in Debian this year: I hope that many people in the project are aware of this. And I certainly don't want to see you discouraged by an inappropriate followup. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Hi, On Freitag, 24. September 2010, Christian PERRIER wrote: Quoting Obey Arthur Liu (art...@milliways.fr): (That said, THANKS for doing it, I imagine it's quite a bit of work and I share your enthusiasm that it looks like many of the students will stay with Debian even after the GSoC projects are finished.) Thanks. We all hope they (you students!) do. Yes. Thanks for the work you did for the GSOC this year, and the year before, Arthur. I think that these GSOC years have been a great success for Debian and already gave great results, at least for the parts I witnessed in the respective development lists (the two d-i releated projects, and developments for apt and aptitude). You really deserve tons of thanks for your work *including the report you posted*. Without all this work, there wouldn't have been any GSOC in Debian this year: I hope that many people in the project are aware of this. And I certainly don't want to see you discouraged by an inappropriate followup. Indeed, thanks Arthur and all others who did actual work on GSoC! And thanks to Christian too, for finding proper words. cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Christian PERRIER writes (Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report): Aller suggérer un manque de transparence ou de la négligence est insultant. I disagree, at least about transparency. I think it is entirely appropriate to comment on a lack of transparency (or to suggest a lack of transparency, as you put it). I don't have an opinion about the GSOC. I agree that Filipus's messages could be more tactful, but it is not appropriate to react to criticism of a lack of information by becoming defensive. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/19612.46931.283172.426...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 03:36:03PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
I don't have an opinion about the GSOC. I agree that Filipus's
messages could be more tactful, but it is not appropriate to react to
criticism of a lack of information by becoming defensive.
Let's be reasonable. We're all volunteer and Arthur, as others, has
volunteered his own work for the past 3(?) GSoC editions as a Debian
admin. I've been doing that too in the past and I can guarantee that it
is quite some work. My work back then could have been way better than
what it was, with Steve having to cover up for me way more than I
initially expected. Probably, Arthur's work could have been better too,
as there's often margin for improvements.
Criticism is welcome, as it's the first step to understand there's
something that should be improved. However, among volunteers, criticism
is much easier to receive (and hence useful!) when it's accompanied by
an offer for help. Criticism without such an offer might be useful too,
but usually needs a higher dose of tact. This is not because we have to
be friends but rather because, pragmatically, it maximizes the chances
that the criticism will have any useful effect.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
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Re: Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Quoting Filipus Klutiero (chea...@gmail.com): I must still thank you for sending a report. My first reaction was Finally, I am just disappointed by the content. I am disappointed by your followup and insistance. To make it clear (sorry readers, you'll need a translation tool but I need to use the words I want to use and not my usual approximative English), let's do this in my native language which you do read as well as Arthur: Je suis extrêmement en colère, Philippe, et c'est rare. Je trouve tes messages dans ce fil de discussion totalement déplacés . Tu voudrais démotiver un de nos meilleurs contributeurs que tu ne t'y prendrais pas mieux. I see you're in anger and reject some of my comments. I'm sorry, I can't do much, but to promise I'll take note of your comments if you explain exactly what maddens you. It seems this is basically what angers you: I almost feel ashamed to see how modest the results have been so far Don't forget I immediately followed that by: Note that I have not extensively monitored the SoC. The results may be greater than I imagine, but this is worryingly non-obvious. Or, en plusieurs années de GSOC, je ne t'ai jamais vu participer à celui-ci. J'espère donc qu'Arthur notamment saura faire la part des choses et laisser tes commentaires à la place qu'ils n'auraient jamais du quitter. I did participate in the Debian SoC, and offered myself to take a prominent role more than once. Unfortunately things outside my control prevented me to enroll. Je n'aime pas être en colère en public, mais je pense que là tu as dépassé les bornes. Le travail du GSOC cette année a été un des plus productifs pour Debian et Arthur a pris grand soin de tenir le projet au courant. Il s'est notamment dépensé sans compter son temps pour que les étudiants participent à Debconf et utilisent cette occasion unique de parler de leur travaux. Etceux qui étaient là à DC10le savent très bien. I was not at DebConf, and only watched a few talks. So it's possible I just missed something. I don't know what happened at DebConf, but if you say Arthur put a lot of effort in promoting the SoC results, I guess there was too much emphasis on DebConf, and too little done outside. Keep in mind most Debian contributors don't attend DebConf. Aller suggérer un manque de transparence ou de la négligence est insultant. I'll rewind and explain how I came to intervene in a concise way: For several years, I consider the SoC management poor, and I've given signs that more transparency would be welcome at times. But this is a volunteer project, so we can't complain for a lack of transparency, we should be happy some work is done in the first place, right? Well, Google does give 5000 USD for management, so this is not entirely true, but given the amount, let's ignore. What does make me fairly angry is to read a Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report, with some elementary issues, calling our 2010 GSoC the fourth when it was the fifth and announcing reports on 8 successful projects but only presenting 7. No link in the mail explains what happened to the 2 unsuccessful projects. Most importantly, even in the 7 projects described, most don't have a single word on the results, but rather impressions on DebConf 2010 which are quite offtopic on d-d-a. And all that proeminently sent to d-d-a, with a slightly optimistic tone that seems to send the project the message We're doing fine!. Then, when 2 readers write very nice mails pointing out one of these issues, what do I see in the answer? don't worry :) That makes me angry. I wouldn't care about transparency if I was seeing GSoC results, but as I said, I'm not satisfied by the little I see, so I do not have enough trust to accept being just told to not worry. If your team has neither good performance nor transparency, at least don't act as if things were fine. If I'm suggesting a lack of transparency or negligence, please don't take this as an insult, but as a challenge. Nothing here is personal, Arthur is not the only one involved in the SoC, and the goal is to make sure future SoC-s will also be even better. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9cf14e.3040...@gmail.com
Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Quoting Ian Jackson (ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk): Christian PERRIER writes (Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report): Aller suggérer un manque de transparence ou de la négligence est insultant. I disagree, at least about transparency. I think it is entirely appropriate to comment on a lack of transparency (or to suggest a lack of transparency, as you put it). If there is lack of transpaency, maybe. But that's just not true. This is what I meant. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Obey Arthur Liu wrote: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Adrian von Bidder avbid...@fortytwo.ch wrote: Hi Arthur, On Monday 20 September 2010 11.37:04 Obey Arthur Liu wrote: [GSoC report] Hmm. It would have been nice to hear about what the students did and how far they got in their GSoC projects instead of what they did at DC10. The report is an aggregation of joint reports from students and mentors ([1]). I combined and posted what I received. Some pairs didn't send me their blurbs on time, but I suppose that some students being back to school already is a reason. Note that I have complete data as part of official GSoC evaluations but their content is private to mentors by GSoC rule, so I'm still keeping tabs on things, don't worry :) I do worry. Unless I'm missing something, this is not the fourth Debian GSoC, but the fifth, and again, it's hard to believe this SoC was reasonably useful. The report we get has some information on 7 projects, although 8 are supposed to have been successful, and as Adrian and Olivier mentioned, no project results in most cases. And what about the unsuccessful projects? Their faith may not be relevant for d-d-a, but not documenting what happened, perhaps somewhere else, will not help new Debian GSoC admins to start with a good understanding of the challenges. I would recommend requiring candidate mentors to agree to share evaluations with GSoC admins, so admins can at least pick information on results when a report has to be made. At its current scale, the summer of code is approximately equivalent to a potential indirect subsidy of 50 000 USD and a direct subsidy of 5000 USD. 5000 may not be a lot, but if we don't have enough volunteers to complete missing administrative manpower, then we should be honest about it and ask for more involvement... instead of having a misleading tone of optimism in the report. Yes, the SoC is surely a positive thing for Debian, but considering the resources granted, I almost feel ashamed to see how modest the results have been so far. (Note that I have not extensively monitored the SoC. The results may be greater than I imagine, but this is worryingly non-obvious.) I must still thank you for sending a report. My first reaction was Finally, I am just disappointed by the content. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c9b1153.3060...@gmail.com
Re: Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Filipus Klutiero chea...@gmail.com wrote: Obey Arthur Liu wrote: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Adrian von Bidder avbid...@fortytwo.ch wrote: Hi Arthur, On Monday 20 September 2010 11.37:04 Obey Arthur Liu wrote: [GSoC report] Hmm. It would have been nice to hear about what the students did and how far they got in their GSoC projects instead of what they did at DC10. The report is an aggregation of joint reports from students and mentors ([1]). I combined and posted what I received. Some pairs didn't send me their blurbs on time, but I suppose that some students being back to school already is a reason. Note that I have complete data as part of official GSoC evaluations but their content is private to mentors by GSoC rule, so I'm still keeping tabs on things, don't worry :) I do worry. Unless I'm missing something, this is not the fourth Debian GSoC, but the fifth, and again, it's hard to believe this SoC was reasonably useful. The report we get has some information on 7 projects, although 8 are supposed to have been successful, and as Adrian and Olivier mentioned, no project results in most cases. And what about the unsuccessful projects? Their faith may not be relevant for d-d-a, but not documenting what happened, perhaps somewhere else, will not help new Debian GSoC admins to start with a good understanding of the challenges. I would recommend requiring candidate mentors to agree to share evaluations with GSoC admins, so admins can at least pick information on results when a report has to be made. Mentors are usually restricted by their spare time. Remember that contrary to students, they usually have an actual job. I do not think that we need a constraining agreement with mentors on that point. They would usually happily do it. At its current scale, the summer of code is approximately equivalent to a potential indirect subsidy of 50 000 USD and a direct subsidy of 5000 USD. 5000 may not be a lot, but if we don't have enough volunteers to complete missing administrative manpower, then we should be honest about it and ask for more involvement... instead of having a misleading tone of optimism in Breaking news: people are welcome to help out for managing the Summer of Code at Debian. There's plenty of work to do, even outside of the summer period. (This is serious.) the report. Yes, the SoC is surely a positive thing for Debian, but considering the resources granted, I almost feel ashamed to see how modest the results have been so far. (Note that I have not extensively monitored the SoC. The results may be greater than I imagine, but this is worryingly non-obvious.) I think the issue is that you're confusing Summer of Code participants with paid consultants. They are not. They are just students, most often newbies at free software, whose summer happen to have been cleared out of another summer job by the GSoC stipend. As such, you should have similar survival rate expectations for a Debian GSoC project as for any other Debian project that you or any DD would happen to be working on. Perhaps a bit higher, but not much. Regarding projects management, well, if you expect a level of accountability on par with what you'd have in a business, then you need to have the appropriate management manpower, and perhaps more importantly, a particular professional mindset from mentors and students. These are not the usual way Debian operates, which is what makes it difficult. I plan to run a BoF with fellow admins and mentors from other organizations at the Mentors Summit to deal with these management and reporting aspects. I'll make sure to tell you how it goes. I must still thank you for sending a report. My first reaction was Finally, I am just disappointed by the content. You're welcome. Arthur -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=oxtu5f0qmzsw2k0fcyudhteg-9tjeoxjvr...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Am 22.09.2010 08:56, schrieb Olivier Berger: Le lundi 20 septembre 2010 à 12:47 +0200, Adrian von Bidder a écrit : Hi Arthur, On Monday 20 September 2010 11.37:04 Obey Arthur Liu wrote: [GSoC report] Hmm. It would have been nice to hear about what the students did and how far they got in their GSoC projects instead of what they did at DC10. +1 I'd have been pleased to get some update about Debbugs Bug Reporting and Manipulation API too... any pointer ? Will do as soon as I worked out the integration of the patch into debbugs with Don. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de Debian Developer venthur at debian org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/i7f8mp$3k...@dough.gmane.org
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
On 2010-09-23 05:32, Obey Arthur Liu wrote: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Filipus Klutierochea...@gmail.com wrote: [...] I would recommend requiring candidate mentors to agree to share evaluations with GSoC admins, so admins can at least pick information on results when a report has to be made. Mentors are usually restricted by their spare time. Remember that contrary to students, they usually have an actual job. Which is why I'm suggesting that admins get allowed to use their reports, so if any individual mentor is too busy to give a report on the results and the students also fails to do it, the admins will be able to do it easily. I do not think that we need a constraining agreement with mentors on that point. They would usually happily do it. ...then why did most of them fail to do it here :-? At its current scale, the summer of code is approximately equivalent to a potential indirect subsidy of 50 000 USD and a direct subsidy of 5000 USD. 5000 may not be a lot, but if we don't have enough volunteers to complete missing administrative manpower, then we should be honest about it and ask for more involvement... instead of having a misleading tone of optimism in Breaking news: people are welcome to help out for managing the Summer of Code at Debian. There's plenty of work to do, even outside of the summer period. (This is serious.) I'm not sure I get exactly your intended message, but if this is serious, this is the kind of information that would be actually relevant on d-d-a next time the SoC team sends a mail there. the report. Yes, the SoC is surely a positive thing for Debian, but considering the resources granted, I almost feel ashamed to see how modest the results have been so far. (Note that I have not extensively monitored the SoC. The results may be greater than I imagine, but this is worryingly non-obvious.) I think the issue is that you're confusing Summer of Code participants with paid consultants. They are not. They are just students, most often newbies at free software, whose summer happen to have been cleared out of another summer job by the GSoC stipend. Heh, it would be hard to confuse SoC students with consultants when they're being paid 5000 USD for 12 weeks of works... As such, you should have similar survival rate expectations for a Debian GSoC project as for any other Debian project that you or any DD would happen to be working on. Perhaps a bit higher, but not much. This hits an extremely interesting point. The reference to a survival rate betrays what I think is a major error GSoC administration has made. It seems the projects selected are in large part new projects, rather than improvements to existing software. When projects are selected, admins need to keep in mind that those working on them are not professional and experienced developers, but students (who may not even study computer science). Furthermore, these students will have only 12 summer weeks, during which they'll work from home, most certainly away from the resources they need, with as only somewhat reliable guide their mentor, which may not even get 500 USD for the whole mentoring process. For these projects to survive, or even have a chance to be born, their scope needs to be very limited. When giving a quick look at this year's projects, this problem seems to be a lot lesser than it has been in the past. However, this problem is in fact part of a wider one, the tendency to pick big projects. Of course, big projects are more attractive at first sight, but we're not that stupid. Even with a considerate selection, big projects are more interesting, because they should get more work done than a project which would possibly be completed before then end of summer. But we must not forget a big advantage of smaller projects. Not only are their results more likely to be useful, but the fact that the students will have completed them is a good thing per se, because the SoC is also about recruiting future Debian contributors. As you must know, big project students always say they're going to complete the work after the end of the summer, but they're going back to school and obviously give up at some point, which leaves them with a feeling of guilt that will not help their perception of being further involved in Debian. And in fact, this big project / small project division is in good part a false dichotomy. In reality, even if the project would be finished half-term, there is always room for improvement, and often surrounding things that can be done to make use of the project's results. I'm stopping here, but mentioning that despite this, there *could* be ways to tackle big projects, like going in phases (something similar was tried already). Regarding projects management, well, if you expect a level of accountability on par with what you'd have in a business, then you need to have the appropriate management manpower, and perhaps more importantly, a particular
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
2010/9/23 Filipus Klutiero chea...@gmail.com: On 2010-09-23 05:32, Obey Arthur Liu wrote: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Filipus Klutierochea...@gmail.com wrote: [...] I would recommend requiring candidate mentors to agree to share evaluations with GSoC admins, so admins can at least pick information on results when a report has to be made. Mentors are usually restricted by their spare time. Remember that contrary to students, they usually have an actual job. Which is why I'm suggesting that admins get allowed to use their reports, so if any individual mentor is too busy to give a report on the results and the students also fails to do it, the admins will be able to do it easily. Maybe, in this case you should also motivate the students to do the extra work you expect from them. They all were required to fill in two rather longish evaluations in the gsoc process - repeating the same again is, lets say, boring. Given that we (as in students) prepared all a few debconf slides relatively near the end of gsoc most of it is already said - even by the respective student in person… (video is available). And these slides should be better than the evaluations as these are rather gsoc organizational orientated questions and not so much about the project itself… And more personal - as I don't know about the others and non-attending debconf doesn't help a lot - I revised very few (as in no) gimme more info requests, so writing a whole lot into the blue which is maybe never read (or given that nobody requested it - very likely never read) isn't very motivating - or at least I can find a bunch of more motivating tasks including university stuff, helping my uncle making (and drinking) wine or such boring things as fixing bugs or even writing emails… (and yes, I have writing something on my todo list, just not high-priority) At its current scale, the summer of code is approximately equivalent to a potential indirect subsidy of 50 000 USD and a direct subsidy of 5000 USD. 5000 may not be a lot, but if we don't have enough volunteers to complete missing administrative manpower, then we should be honest about it and ask for more involvement... instead of having a misleading tone of optimism in Breaking news: people are welcome to help out for managing the Summer of Code at Debian. There's plenty of work to do, even outside of the summer period. (This is serious.) I'm not sure I get exactly your intended message, but if this is serious, this is the kind of information that would be actually relevant on d-d-a next time the SoC team sends a mail there. Come on, can you name even one team in debian (or any open source project) which has too many active members? Being understaffed is the norm, not something you need to mention explicitly in every mail you write… (okay, this paragraph is a bit too depressive, but I am out of time to reword it - at bit ironic in this context… ;) ) the report. Yes, the SoC is surely a positive thing for Debian, but considering the resources granted, I almost feel ashamed to see how modest the results have been so far. (Note that I have not extensively monitored the SoC. The results may be greater than I imagine, but this is worryingly non-obvious.) I think the issue is that you're confusing Summer of Code participants with paid consultants. They are not. They are just students, most often newbies at free software, whose summer happen to have been cleared out of another summer job by the GSoC stipend. Heh, it would be hard to confuse SoC students with consultants when they're being paid 5000 USD for 12 weeks of works... You forget that the students have done a lot unpaid - choosing an organization is nothing to be taken lightly. Further more you search a proposal you find interesting - or even write your own, and that for most students multiple times as the chance to be chosen is higher then. Oh, and after choosing your proposal(s) you need to provide your hopefully-soon-to-be organizations with a bunch of information why you are the best student in the world. Searching and convincing a mentor for your proposal especially if its your own can suck up much time, too. But let us assume you have one and you are one of the chosen ones (unlikely if you look at the numbers of students accepted vs students applied in gsoc). Now begins something which Google calls Bonding time - time in which you should dig (deeper) into your project, get familiar with the source, read documentation meet your mentor and your community and all this kind of stuff… Reducing the gsoc to 3 months of writing code you didn't give credit to that pre-gsoc invest of the students as well as you dismiss the hidden target: Encourage a student to use and work on the projects even after gsoc. (which is for me the real and only target: but don't tell anyone) As such, you should have similar survival rate expectations for a Debian GSoC project as for any other Debian project
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
On 2010-09-23 21:26, David Kalnischkies wrote: 2010/9/23 Filipus Klutierochea...@gmail.com: On 2010-09-23 05:32, Obey Arthur Liu wrote: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Filipus Klutierochea...@gmail.com wrote: [...] I would recommend requiring candidate mentors to agree to share evaluations with GSoC admins, so admins can at least pick information on results when a report has to be made. Mentors are usually restricted by their spare time. Remember that contrary to students, they usually have an actual job. Which is why I'm suggesting that admins get allowed to use their reports, so if any individual mentor is too busy to give a report on the results and the students also fails to do it, the admins will be able to do it easily. Maybe, in this case you should also motivate the students to do the extra work you expect from them. They all were required to fill in two rather longish evaluations in the gsoc process - repeating the same again is, lets say, boring. Given that we (as in students) prepared all a few debconf slides relatively near the end of gsoc most of it is already said - even by the respective student in person… (video is available). And these slides should be better than the evaluations as these are rather gsoc organizational orientated questions and not so much about the project itself… Really, if writing a paragraph on what you did during 12 weeks is significant extra work for you, I wonder why you bothered writing this reply. And more personal - as I don't know about the others and non-attending debconf doesn't help a lot - I revised very few (as in no) gimme more info requests, so writing a whole lot into the blue which is maybe never read (or given that nobody requested it - very likely never read) isn't very motivating - or at least I can find a bunch of more motivating tasks including university stuff, helping my uncle making (and drinking) wine or such boring things as fixing bugs or even writing emails… (and yes, I have writing something on my todo list, just not high-priority) I don't think you really understand our concerns. Nobody talked about writing a whole lot. We're disappointed that most project do not have *a single word* published on the results. There is room for a middle ground between a word and a whole lot. Besides, I'm not talking about getting students to write this, but making sure there's an easy backup solution if they don't. At its current scale, the summer of code is approximately equivalent to a potential indirect subsidy of 50 000 USD and a direct subsidy of 5000 USD. 5000 may not be a lot, but if we don't have enough volunteers to complete missing administrative manpower, then we should be honest about it and ask for more involvement... instead of having a misleading tone of optimism in Breaking news: people are welcome to help out for managing the Summer of Code at Debian. There's plenty of work to do, even outside of the summer period. (This is serious.) I'm not sure I get exactly your intended message, but if this is serious, this is the kind of information that would be actually relevant on d-d-a next time the SoC team sends a mail there. Come on, can you name even one team in debian (or any open source project) which has too many active members? Being understaffed is the norm, not something you need to mention explicitly in every mail you write… (okay, this paragraph is a bit too depressive, but I am out of time to reword it - at bit ironic in this context… ;) ) Read carefully - I was not sure I got Obey's message correctly. He wrote Breaking news: [...] (This is serious.) If he means that [...] is seriously breaking news, I think my answer is appropriate. If however Breaking news is sarcastic, and he means, as you say, that all teams welcome help, implying that asking for more involvement would be vain, then my answer is different: Debian teams could be put on a spectrum of vitality. At one end, you have the security team, which just needs to keep a minimal manpower. At the other end, you have the vimim team, working on the next-generation beat-them-all text editor. The vimim team could be vacant for a decade without anyone noticing, however if an accident reduces the security team to a single person, that person needs to scream immediately and start recruiting new people before the funerals are over. Close to the critical end, you have the archive maintenance team, of which the breakage, although it would not cause an immediate threat to Debian, would severely affect development, making most other teams unproductive. I consider the GSoC admins on the side of the security team, not as critical as the archive maintenance team, but still a team whose performance is critical to the productivity of our GSoC project teams. the report. Yes, the SoC is surely a positive thing for Debian, but considering the resources granted, I almost feel ashamed to see how modest the results have been so far. (Note that I have not
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Le lundi 20 septembre 2010 à 12:47 +0200, Adrian von Bidder a écrit : Hi Arthur, On Monday 20 September 2010 11.37:04 Obey Arthur Liu wrote: [GSoC report] Hmm. It would have been nice to hear about what the students did and how far they got in their GSoC projects instead of what they did at DC10. +1 I'd have been pleased to get some update about Debbugs Bug Reporting and Manipulation API too... any pointer ? Thanks in advance. Best regards, -- Olivier BERGER olivier.ber...@it-sudparis.eu http://www-public.it-sudparis.eu/~berger_o/ - OpenPGP-Id: 2048R/5819D7E8 Ingénieur Recherche - Dept INF Institut TELECOM, SudParis (http://www.it-sudparis.eu/), Evry (France) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1285138594.3410.2.ca...@inf-8657.int-evry.fr
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hello fellow developers, The summer is over :( but I'm happy to announce that this year's Summer of Code at Debian[1] has been better than ever! :) This is indeed the 4th time we had the privilege of participating in the Google Summer of Code and each year has been a little different. This year, 8 of our 10 students succeeded in our (very strict!) final evaluations, but we have reasons to believe that they will translate into more long-term developers than ever, all thank to you. The highlight this year has been getting almost all of our students at DebConf10[2][4]. Thanks again this year to generous Travel Grants from the Google Open Source Team, we managed to fly in 7 of our students (up from 3!). You certainly saw them, presenting during DebianDay, hacking on the grass of Columbia, hacking^Wcheering our Debian Project Leader throwing the inaugural pitch of a professional baseball game or hacking^Wsun-tanning on the très kitsch Coney Island beach. Before I give the keyboard to our Students, I'd like to tell you that it will be the pleasure and honor of Obey Arthur Liu (yours truly, as Administrator) and Bastian Venthur (as Mentor) to represent Debian at the Summer of Code 2010 Mentors Summit on 23-24 October 2010, at the Google Headquarters in Mountain View. Like last year[3], we expect many other DDs to be present under other hats. We will be having 2 days of unconference on GSoC and free software related topics. We all look forward to reporting from California on Planet and soc-coordinat...@l.a.d.o! All of our students had a wonderful experience, even if they couldn't come to DebConf, that is best shared in their own voice, so without further ado, our successful projects: === Multi-Arch support in APT === by David Kalnischkies, mentored by Michael Vogt apt-get install MultiArch does mostly work now as most code is already merged in squeeze, but if not complain about us at de...@l.d.o! Still, a lot left on the todo list - not only in APT - so let us all add MultiArch again to the Release Goals and work hard on squeezing it into wheezy. :) === Debbugs Bug Reporting and Manipulation API === by David Wendt Jr., mentored by Bastian Venthur Hello, I'm David Wendt, and I went to Debconf10 to learn more about the development side of Debian. Having used it since the 9th grade, I've been intimately familiar with many of Debian's internals. However, I wanted to see the developers and other Debian users. At DebConf, I was able to see a variety of talks from Debian and Ubuntu developers. I also got to meet with my mentor as well as the maintainer of Debbugs. === Content-aware Config Files Upgrading === by Krzysztof Tyszecki, mentored by Dominique Dumont Config::Model is now capable of manipulating files using shorter and easier to write models. Thanks to that, packagers may start experiment with creating upgrade models. Further work is needed to support more complicated config files - Dominique Dumont is working on DEP-5 parser, I'll shortly start working on a cupsd config file parser. The best thing about DebConf10 is that every person I talked with knew what I was doing. I had a mission to get some feedback on my project. Everybody liked the idea of making upgrades less cumbersome. On the other side, it was my first visit to United States, so I decided to go on a daytrip on my own (instead of staying inside the building, despite heat warnings). I had a chance to visit many interesting places like Ground Zero, the UN headquarters, Grand Central Terminal, Times square and Rockefeller Center - that was a great experience. === Hurd port and de-Linux-ization of Debian-Installer === by Jérémie Koenig, mentored by Samuel Thibault Debconf10 was great! Among other people working on the installer, I met Aurélien Jarno from the Debian/kFreeBSD team and we worked together on a cross-platform busybox package. Besides, the talks were very interesting and I've filled my TODO-list for the year. For instance I learned about the Jigsaw project of OpenJDK, and how Debian would be the ideal platform to experiment with it. More generally, some people think Debian could push Java 7 forward and I'd like to see this happen. === Smart Upload Server for FTP Master === by Petr Jasek, mentored by Joerg Jaspert I must say that it was great time for me in NY, I've met and talked and coded with people from ftp-master team like Torsten Werner who helped me to push the project a bit further and with some other people who were looking forward to release of the tool which I hope they will use quite soon. Everybody interested, everybody excited, really cool place and time. And I can't forget the Coney Island beach and stuff, lot of fun, lot of sun;) === Aptitude Qt === by Piotr Galiszewski, mentored by Sune Vuorela Currently, development branches support full features searching, viewing extended package's informations, performing cache and packages operations. Code and GUI still
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
Hi Arthur, On Monday 20 September 2010 11.37:04 Obey Arthur Liu wrote: [GSoC report] Hmm. It would have been nice to hear about what the students did and how far they got in their GSoC projects instead of what they did at DC10. Exactly like David Kalnischkies wrote his summary. (That said, THANKS for doing it, I imagine it's quite a bit of work and I share your enthusiasm that it looks like many of the students will stay with Debian even after the GSoC projects are finished.) cheers -- vbi -- The idea is that you can only get in trouble for what you actually did. What a concept. -- Pam Jones, Groklaw signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Google Summer of Code 2010 Debian Report
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Adrian von Bidder avbid...@fortytwo.ch wrote: Hi Arthur, On Monday 20 September 2010 11.37:04 Obey Arthur Liu wrote: [GSoC report] Hmm. It would have been nice to hear about what the students did and how far they got in their GSoC projects instead of what they did at DC10. The report is an aggregation of joint reports from students and mentors ([1]). I combined and posted what I received. Some pairs didn't send me their blurbs on time, but I suppose that some students being back to school already is a reason. Note that I have complete data as part of official GSoC evaluations but their content is private to mentors by GSoC rule, so I'm still keeping tabs on things, don't worry :) Exactly like David Kalnischkies wrote his summary. (That said, THANKS for doing it, I imagine it's quite a bit of work and I share your enthusiasm that it looks like many of the students will stay with Debian even after the GSoC projects are finished.) Thanks. We all hope they (you students!) do. Cheers [1] http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/soc-coordination/2010-September/000801.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktiko-8ujxivwqdpd=uy2k3sv2=ne8jrefmbgq...@mail.gmail.com
