Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

Hi, people. I'm not a DD here, so let that colour your opinions of
what I will say however it will.

I am, however, deeply interested in Debian and have done wee bits of
coding for it in the past, and keep meaning to do so more for it.

It is an unfortunate situation that often people when they're told,
"hey, would you please be polite?" they respond with "NO, BECAUSE THAT
INFRINGES UPON MY HUMAN RIGHT TO BE AN ASSHOLE!"

Of course I'm caricaturising the response, but I believe that as far
as caricatures go, it's relatively accurate. I also don't think it's
necessary to elaborate on why the caricaturised response is
unacceptable.

Some people just don't get what "politeness" means. I would define it
as behaviour that is acceptable in front of your grandma, but I
suppose not even that is clear.

I vote in favour of a code of conduct in order to codify for those who
don't get it what "politeness" means. Copying Ubuntu's code of conduct
would be most beneficial.

The threat of losing DDs, especially members that supposedly we've
worked hard to make feel welcome (hello, d-women!) would be most
unfortunate. In order to rectify the damage that has been done by some
members of our community, a code of conduct would prove the commitment
that Debian has to fostering a good environment of collaboration and
freedom.

Should anyone feel oppressed by a code of conduct and their "freedom"
to be an asshole be impinged, I remind that person that anti-asshole
laws are in place to protect the freedom of *others*, not just your
own.

C'mon, people. Let's all get along here. And be excellent to each other.

- Jordi G. H.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Rafael Laboissiere]

Quoting Steve McIntyre :


[snip]

Here's the full body of the message I sent to Sam. He contacted me
asking for my thoughts and I wrote the following:

===

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:53:24AM +1100, Sam Varghese wrote:

[snip]


I am shortly running a story about the sexist post by Josselin Mouette
and the fallout of the same.


[snip]

I assume you're talking about Josselin's post to debian-devel-announce
on the 23rd of November [1]. Joss is, unfortunately, rather fond of
posting his own brand of "humour" when he wants to make a point, and
in this case his post was both ridiculously off-topic and juvenile.

Quite a number of people took exception to the content of his message,
as you've probably seen from the following discussions. I don't
believe he was actually trying to be *directly* offensive in what he
wrote, but his judgement is clearly not the best.

After his abuse of the ability to post to the d-d-a mailing list, I
asked our mailing list administrators to remove that privilege for in
future.


Steve's message was quite accurate and neutral. I think he did a good job
job here as DPL.  However, Sam Varghese has horrendously broken the basic
rules of good journalism in his article.

Starting with the title "Debian developer loses privileges due to offensive
post", he suggests that Josselin has been actually punished by Debian, which
is not the case.

Second, he says that Joss' post to d-d-a was offensive and sexist. Had he
read the whole thread in debian-devel, he would have seen that many
developers disagreed with this opinion and have pointed out that the post
was satirical in the first place.  As regards the choice of the forum, even
Josselin agreed that posting in d-d-a was a bad idea and sent his apologies.

Finally, Sam Varghese must had contacted Josselin and asked him his opinion.
Getting the opinion of all parts involved is a basic rule of journalism,
isn't it? I am profoundly disappointed with the lack of professionalism of
people acting in an Internet news organisation, like ITWire.

--
Rafael Laboissiere



This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[William Pitcock]

Hi,

On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 23:04 +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the 
> Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad 
> behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.

I think that flame-war threads with 81 posts in them resulting in many
contributors slagging many other contributors also hurts the project. In
fact, I find it quite appalling.

If we are truly concerned about the health of Debian, then why do we
continuously flame other people's behaviour?  These flame-wars are
causing much more damage to Debian than any bad stories being published
on websites will ever do.

I am reading things recently like discussion about people making
petitions to expel other people from the project entirely (e.g. Manoj),
flame-wars like these, and other crap. This stuff is tearing Debian
apart, and while people may feel that these concerns are valid -- they
really are not worth the damage that raising them in this way is
causing.

Reading stuff like this concerns me about the future and viability of
Debian. As most people who contribute to Debian, I do so with the goal
of improving Debian's utility to myself (in the choices of packages I
choose to maintain -- those are programs I tend to use), and to the rest
of the community (hopefully they like to use them too). If stuff like
this continues, there may not be any perceived point in improving
Debian. (Why work on an OS that has an undefined future?)

Debian is a project to create a free operating system, not a trolling
collective. If you have issues with Josselin, then you should resolve
those in a private environment. You, and everyone else, have the right
to ignore other people, and what they are doing outside of their
contributions to the project.

People who do a great amount of work on Debian (manoj and joss and who
knows who will be next) -- far more work than I do on Debian -- are
being targeted by vigilantism. This is truly unacceptable. Maybe they
deserve it, maybe they do not, but this is stuff that I at least find
appalling.

Everyone should stop playing this drama game, and get back to working on
releasing Lenny. Every moment that is wasted on bullshit like this is
time that could be spent on fixing an RC bug.

William


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Steve Langasek]

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 09:12:46AM +0100, Thomas Weber wrote:
> > > Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is
> > > unacceptable on Ubuntu lists?

> > There's no ubuntu-legal list infested with leeches who think it's their
> > business to tell Ubuntu how to interpret its own license requirements
> > without ever having contributed a line of code to Ubuntu, so I don't think
> > the analogy holds.

> Sorry, but I don't think the idea of 'politeness' differs so much over
> different mailing lists. Either you don't insult people or you do. And
> my point wasn't about debian-legal, obviously. But rather about people
> insulting people one day and then finger-pointing at other people
> insulting other people the next day.

There are a couple of differences here that I think are material (or else I
wouldn't be behaving in a way that you think is hypocritical).

First, I haven't objected that Joss is "insulting" anyone.  I object that he
publically mocks many of his peers in the Debian project (sometimes singly,
sometimes as a class), and he and his apologists insist that this is
justified because it's "fun" or "funny", and that people who are offended
should all just lighten up instead of taking offense at this lowering of the
level of discourse.  These people have so little respect for their peers in
Debian that they won't even bother with an attempt at civil discussion.
They seem to think that putting the "fun" back in Debian means making crass,
schoolyard jokes about other people in the project, not about having fun
*working on Debian*.

While I admit I suffer from the same self-righteousness by deciding who it's
ok to insult on the lists, I'm certainly not doing this to amuse myself or
others.  I do it because I think hangers-on who contribute nothing to Debian
but their opinions are a real and serious problem on a number of our lists,
and debian-legal in particular where they account for a majority of replies
over the past couple of years; and our mailing list policies, conditioned as
they are by the knee-jerk "censorship is bad" crowd, don't offer any other
way to deal with such problems *except* vigilantism.  I don't /enjoy/
sending mails like that.  I just believe that they're the lesser evil.

I hope a system such as the one being proposed on -project might eventually
provide us with a working feedback mechanism to check people's urges to
contribute nothing but cheap talk, one that doesn't involve self-appointed
enforcers.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 07:07:35PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
> On Friday 19 December 2008 19:56, Johannes Wiedersich 
>  wrote:
> > What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
> > that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
> > wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.
> 
> Do we have any French women on the list who think it's fine?  Surely if we 
> are 
> talking about French culture in terms of women then we need some input from 
> the 51% of French people who are female.
> 
> Also while the claim has been made that French culture supports such things, 
> the claim was not well defined.  Is it the culture of French bars and locker 
> rooms or the culture of French government offices and corporations?
> 
> If it happens that women who work for the French government and French 
> corporations accept such things then still wouldn't be an argument for 
> accepting it in Debian.

Could you just all leave the french alone and stop achieving nothing more
than pissing us off ?

Mike


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Thomas Weber]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 08:31:15PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:11:25AM +0100, Thomas Weber wrote:
> > > No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the
> > > rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that
> > > something has been lost in translation.
> 
> > > When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're
> > > assholes for it.
> 
> > > It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a
> > > "culture".
> 
> > I find this strange, given that not too long ago you categorized the
> > participants of debian-legal as "wankers".
> 
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00174.html
> 
> > Joss' messages can be understood as pretty bad humor. Was your message
> > above also meant as a joke?
> 
> No.  What part of that message would lead you to think I was joking?
Nothing lead me to that, but then I'm not a native English speaker, so I
may overlook subtleties.

> > Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is
> > unacceptable on Ubuntu lists?
> 
> There's no ubuntu-legal list infested with leeches who think it's their
> business to tell Ubuntu how to interpret its own license requirements
> without ever having contributed a line of code to Ubuntu, so I don't think
> the analogy holds.

Sorry, but I don't think the idea of 'politeness' differs so much over
different mailing lists. Either you don't insult people or you do. And
my point wasn't about debian-legal, obviously. But rather about people
insulting people one day and then finger-pointing at other people
insulting other people the next day.

If you expect a certain behaviour, the best start is showing it
yourself.

Thomas


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Russell Coker]

On Friday 19 December 2008 19:56, Johannes Wiedersich 
 wrote:
> What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
> that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
> wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.

Do we have any French women on the list who think it's fine?  Surely if we are 
talking about French culture in terms of women then we need some input from 
the 51% of French people who are female.

Also while the claim has been made that French culture supports such things, 
the claim was not well defined.  Is it the culture of French bars and locker 
rooms or the culture of French government offices and corporations?

If it happens that women who work for the French government and French 
corporations accept such things then still wouldn't be an argument for 
accepting it in Debian.

-- 
russ...@coker.com.au
http://etbe.coker.com.au/  My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/   My Documents Blog


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:11:25AM +0100, Thomas Weber wrote:
> > No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the
> > rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that
> > something has been lost in translation.

> > When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're
> > assholes for it.

> > It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a
> > "culture".

> I find this strange, given that not too long ago you categorized the
> participants of debian-legal as "wankers".

> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00174.html

> Joss' messages can be understood as pretty bad humor. Was your message
> above also meant as a joke?

No.  What part of that message would lead you to think I was joking?

> Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is
> unacceptable on Ubuntu lists?

There's no ubuntu-legal list infested with leeches who think it's their
business to tell Ubuntu how to interpret its own license requirements
without ever having contributed a line of code to Ubuntu, so I don't think
the analogy holds.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Steve McIntyre]

Eduard wrote:
>#include 
>* Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]:
>> http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7991
>> 
>> From the above news article:
>> # Debian Project Leader Steve McIntyre told iTWire that after Mouette's 
>> "abuse
>
>I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT
>OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling.
>
>So how did Steve feed them, did he at all?

Hi Eduard,

Apologies for the delay in responding here. Crisis at work on top of
-vote stuff... :-(

Here's the full body of the message I sent to Sam. He contacted me
asking for my thoughts and I wrote the following:

===

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:53:24AM +1100, Sam Varghese wrote:
>Hi Steve
>
>Trusts this find you in good health and spirits.
>
>I am shortly running a story about the sexist post by Josselin Mouette
>and the fallout of the same.
>
>I would be grateful to know your reaction to the issue asap.

Hi Sam,

Things aren't too bad for me, thanks. Well, beyond the usual over-work
and lack of time anyway... :-) How are things with you?

I assume you're talking about Josselin's post to debian-devel-announce
on the 23rd of November [1]. Joss is, unfortunately, rather fond of
posting his own brand of "humour" when he wants to make a point, and
in this case his post was both ridiculously off-topic and juvenile.

Quite a number of people took exception to the content of his message,
as you've probably seen from the following discussions. I don't
believe he was actually trying to be *directly* offensive in what he
wrote, but his judgement is clearly not the best.

After his abuse of the ability to post to the d-d-a mailing list, I
asked our mailing list administrators to remove that privilege for in
future.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2008/11/msg5.html

===

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"I suspect most samba developers are already technically insane... Of
 course, since many of them are Australians, you can't tell." -- Linus Torvalds


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Ron Johnson]

On 12/19/08 17:47, Eduard Bloch wrote:

#include 
* Michael Banck [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 06:13:57PM]:

Dear Norbert,

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:

So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
else.

Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.


Please just heed his advice.


Or realize that English's third-person neutral is "it", which is 
certainly a rude way to refer to a person, whereas "he" is only 
considered rude by people who, well... I'd better stop right there.


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
What different abilities do I have?


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Ron Johnson]

On 12/19/08 17:18, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote:


Agustin Martin  writes:


For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with
a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the
expression. No sexual connotation implied at all.

World is not that different,

For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial
phrase being "a stick up your ass" and regularly used without any sexual
connotation whatsoever).  I don't know if Russell's objections are unique
to Australia or unique to Russell.

The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination,
and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult.


Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it
 acceptable behaviour?


His phrase "isn't considered *polite*" should indicate what he 
thinks of JM's comment.


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
What different abilities do I have?


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Cyril Brulebois [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 09:35:24AM]:
> Eduard Bloch  (18/12/2008):
> > * Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]:
> > > http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7991
> > 
> > I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT
> > OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling.
> > 
> > So how did Steve feed them, did he at all?
> 
> You click on the above link, you then click on “Article Link”, and you
> get the article, which includes quotes:
> 
> http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22371/1090/

And? I cannot discover any quote from Steve there, can you?

> A related article, since we're talking about iTWire:
> 
> http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22320/1090/

Yes, and? Similar pile of crap: boring summary of what we have read on
the mailing list, using quotes (cut in a bad way, IMHO) to
demonstrate... what actually?

Regards,
Eduard.

-- 
Nichts zeigt die Menschen falscher und schöner als d(ie) Leiden; im
Glück werfen sie die Schleier weg.
-- Jean Paul


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Michael Banck [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 06:13:57PM]:
> Dear Norbert,
> 
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
> > correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
> > else.
> 
> Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.

Please just heed his advice.

Regards,
Eduard.

-- 
Windows zu benutzen ist wie Bungy-Jumping ohne Seil.
-- Jörg Gerbracht


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Russ Allbery]

Manoj Srivastava  writes:
> On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial
>> phrase being "a stick up your ass" and regularly used without any sexual
>> connotation whatsoever).  I don't know if Russell's objections are unique
>> to Australia or unique to Russell.

>> The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination,
>> and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult.

> Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it
>  acceptable behaviour?

Not as far as I'm concerned.  But then I also thought the parody sent to
d-d-a was inappropriately sexist and offensive, so I'm apparently some
sort of censorious Nazi or hyper-sensitive PC freak or whatever the
current in-vogue terminology for people who prefer basic politeness and
respect over that form of humor is.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote:
>> Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
>> > The mission of Debian is not "spot the bigot". Debian embraces people
>> > of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief --
>> > about an OS.
>> 
>> Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people
>> having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to
>> see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up.
>
> It's called “Don't feed the beast/trolls”. I'd rather have less such
> discussions on debian lists and more of the productive ones (and I know
> that you didn't start this discussion).

Then perhaps a good start would be to start deprecating messages
 that insult, shock, and try to humiliate other people, which even you
 can't possibly characterize as positicve and constructuve, no?

manoj
-- 
"When in doubt, use brute force." Ken Thompson
Manoj Srivastava    
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote:

> Agustin Martin  writes:
>
>> For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with
>> a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the
>> expression. No sexual connotation implied at all.
>>
>> World is not that different,
>
> For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial
> phrase being "a stick up your ass" and regularly used without any sexual
> connotation whatsoever).  I don't know if Russell's objections are unique
> to Australia or unique to Russell.
>
> The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination,
> and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult.

Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it
 acceptable behaviour?

manoj
-- 
An idealist is one who helps the other fellow to make a profit. Henry
Ford
Manoj Srivastava    
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Norbert Preining]

On Fr, 19 Dez 2008, Michael Banck wrote:
> Dear Norbert,
> 
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
> > correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
> > else.
> 
> Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.

Bummer, you are right, I forgot that, of course,
if *anyone* here thinks she or he is ...
(the worst invention in feminism is this stupid language thingy, anyone
having studied a bit of languages, a whatever ...)

Thanks for reminding me.

Best wishes

Norbert

---
Dr. Norbert Preining Vienna University of Technology
Debian Developer  Debian TeX Group
gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094  fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76  A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094
---
SCREMBY (n.)
The dehydrated felt-tip pen attached by a string to the 'Don't Forget'
board in the kitchen which has never worked in living memory but which
no one can be bothered to throw away.
--- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Russ Allbery]

Agustin Martin  writes:

> For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with
> a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the
> expression. No sexual connotation implied at all.
>
> World is not that different,

For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial
phrase being "a stick up your ass" and regularly used without any sexual
connotation whatsoever).  I don't know if Russell's objections are unique
to Australia or unique to Russell.

The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination,
and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Noah Slater]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 06:13:57PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote:
> Dear Norbert,
>
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
> > correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
> > else.
>
> Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.

Oh come on, this thread has been going on enough as it is. I'm tired of having
to delete all the emails! We hardly need people trying to correct other people's
usage of a language that doesn't properly provide for gender neutral
constructions in the first place.

-- 
Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Michael Banck]

Dear Norbert,

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote:
> So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
> correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
> else.

Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience.


thanks,

Michael


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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
> > The mission of Debian is not "spot the bigot". Debian embraces people
> > of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief --
> > about an OS.
> 
> Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people
> having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to
> see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up.

It's called “Don't feed the beast/trolls”. I'd rather have less such
discussions on debian lists and more of the productive ones (and I know
that you didn't start this discussion).

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Le best-seller français mis à jour pour Debian Etch :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
> The mission of Debian is not "spot the bigot". Debian embraces people
> of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief --
> about an OS.

Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people
having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to
see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up.

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.


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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Martin Langhoff]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> Our country is very far from exempt of human rights violations. Those
> trying to frame the current discussion in terms of cultures or countries
> are forgetting that every culture and country has its share of
> intolerant people. I don't think all Aussies are homophobic bigots; it's
> just that we have one in the project.

Hmmm, Josselin, I share with you an open mind over many things (and
yet, you'd be surprised at the prejudices you have, that only someone
from another culture can point out). Even in the odd days when I feel
all superior, I realise that it's not for everyone, and that different
cultures have their own pace, and their own direction. And I respect
them, if I am in a multicultural forum, I watch my mouth.

The mission of Debian is not "spot the bigot". Debian embraces people
of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief --
about an OS.

cheers,


m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Loïc Minier]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> I am sorry. I meant 'some French'. It was not my intention to give the
> impression that this applies to all the French. Please accept my apologies.

 We're almost all humans, thanks for retracting.  :-)

-- 
Loïc Minier


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Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 13:30 +0100, Olivier Berger a écrit :
> For instance see our Secretaire d'Etat's declaration at :
> http://gayswithoutborders.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/france-rama-yade-will-appeal-at-the-united-nations-for-the-universal-decriminalisation-of-homosexuality/
> 
> OK, OK, maybe some kind of french arrogance here again ;)

Especially when the very day of the 60th anniversary, our beloved
foreign minister said:
“There is a permanent contradiction between human rights and a
State’s foreign policy, even in France.”

Our country is very far from exempt of human rights violations. Those
trying to frame the current discussion in terms of cultures or countries
are forgetting that every culture and country has its share of
intolerant people. I don’t think all Aussies are homophobic bigots; it’s
just that we have one in the project.

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Vincent Danjean]

Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> Romain Beauxis wrote:
>> I start a discussion trying to explain how misunderstanding can happen and 
>> it 
>> ends up claiming that french are arogant.
> 
> I am sorry, if I misunderstood your point as defending Joss's
> announcement, while you were just trying to explain it [1].

Whether Romain was trying to defend or to explain Joss's announcement is really 
not
the point in his previous message (the one quoted at the start of this one).
  I'm very unpleased that you are claiming I'm arogant.
  I know (I see your other post) that this was not your intention and I see your
apologies. The fact is that you post this offensive message. So, do not forget
that what someone writes is not always what he thinks nor what he wants to say.

  That said, I did not read at all Joss blog, so I have no opinion (for now) on
the main issue of this thread.

  Regards,
Vincent (French people)


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OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Olivier Berger]

Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 10:01 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit :
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> > Homosexuality can be an *accusation* ‽
> 
> It still is in some countries. That's why mature people don't play
> with that openly in international projects.
> 
> Perhaps you didn't know.
> 

Still, shame on those countries.

Btw, just as we are clearly off-topic of any Debian developper related
discussion, there has just been some celebration of 60th anniversary of
the universal human rights declaration at UN yesterday, with a
specicically targeted event about sexual orientation, criminalisation of
homosexuality, etc.

For instance see our Secretaire d'Etat's declaration at :
http://gayswithoutborders.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/france-rama-yade-will-appeal-at-the-united-nations-for-the-universal-decriminalisation-of-homosexuality/

OK, OK, maybe some kind of french arrogance here again ;)

Best regards,
-- 
Olivier BERGER 
http://www-public.it-sudparis.eu/~berger_o/ - OpenPGP-Id: 1024D/6B829EEC
Ingénieur Recherche - Dept INF
Institut TELECOM, SudParis (http://www.it-sudparis.eu/), Evry (France)


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Martin Langhoff]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> Homosexuality can be an *accusation* ‽

It still is in some countries. That's why mature people don't play
with that openly in international projects.

Perhaps you didn't know.

cheers,


martin
-- 
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 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
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 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Agustin Martin]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 05:00:47AM +0100, Harald Braumann wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:04:05 +0100
> > I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely
> > different understanding of the English language used in all these
> > matters than almost every one else in the world. 
> Well, the same expression exists in German, the stick just goes
> in the other end. Do you see any "fellatial" connotation there?

For the records, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either
with a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the
expression. No sexual connotation implied at all. 

World is not that different,

-- 
Agustin


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

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Romain Beauxis wrote:
> I start a discussion trying to explain how misunderstanding can happen and it 
> ends up claiming that french are arogant.

I am sorry, if I misunderstood your point as defending Joss's
announcement, while you were just trying to explain it [1].

Johannes

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00785.html
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

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Loïc Minier wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
>> What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
>> that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
>> wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.
> 
>  "the French" => FAIL; thanks.

I am sorry. I meant 'some French'. It was not my intention to give the
impression that this applies to all the French. Please accept my apologies.

Johannes

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Friday 19 December 2008 09:56:21 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :
> What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
> that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
> wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.

I you ever believed one of Joss' joke was bad, this is far worse to me.

I start a discussion trying to explain how misunderstanding can happen and it 
ends up claiming that french are arogant.


I don't think I have anymore to add if it comes to that point.


Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Loïc Minier]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
> that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
> wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.

 "the French" => FAIL; thanks.

-- 
Loïc Minier


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Thomas Weber]

Am Donnerstag, den 18.12.2008, 22:51 -0800 schrieb Steve Langasek:
> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:04:05AM +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> > I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely
> > different understanding of the English language used in all these
> > matters than almost every one else in the world. I guess it is really
> > time that Joss realizes that what might have been OK to be written in
> > French is considered an insult when written in English to thousands of
> > readers from different cultural backgrounds.
> 
> No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the
> rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that
> something has been lost in translation.
> 
> When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're
> assholes for it.
> 
> It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a
> "culture".

I find this strange, given that not too long ago you categorized the
participants of debian-legal as "wankers".

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00174.html

Joss' messages can be understood as pretty bad humor. Was your message
above also meant as a joke?

Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is
unacceptable on Ubuntu lists?

Thomas


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Romain Beauxis wrote:
> Le Friday 19 December 2008 01:04:05 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :
>> Joss, it is disappointing that after all that time since your faux pas
>> [1], you still seem to fail to understand that what might be acceptable
>> within one culture (I don't speak or understand 'French') will not
>> necessarily be acceptable for all the other thousands of recipients of
>> your posts.
> 
> I why couldn't you just accept other cultural expressions ? If people have a 
> different understanding than yours, why should yours be the reference ?

I do accept other cultural expressions. I do like other cultural
expressions. But that does not mean that everyone is allowed to follow
his/her cultural expression always and everywhere without respecting
others.

What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather
that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world
wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine.

Debian is not a French-only project.

Just my 2ct,

Johannes
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Cyril Brulebois]

Eduard Bloch  (18/12/2008):
> * Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]:
> > http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7991
> 
> I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT
> OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling.
> 
> So how did Steve feed them, did he at all?

You click on the above link, you then click on “Article Link”, and you
get the article, which includes quotes:

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22371/1090/

A related article, since we're talking about iTWire:

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22320/1090/

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:04:05AM +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely
> different understanding of the English language used in all these
> matters than almost every one else in the world. I guess it is really
> time that Joss realizes that what might have been OK to be written in
> French is considered an insult when written in English to thousands of
> readers from different cultural backgrounds.

No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the
rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that
something has been lost in translation.

When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're
assholes for it.

It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a
"culture".

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[John Goerzen]

Simon Huggins wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:04:24PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
>> As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do 
>> not belong on Planet Debian - which is for many people the public face of 
>> Debian.
> 
> To be clear, this means that as the Debian culture is opposed to
> censorship, you want to censor him?
> 

Pardon me, but it is not censorship to deny a person the use of your
resources for the spreading of vitriol.  He is free to operate his blog
as he sees fit, but there is no right to expect us to distribute it for him.

-- John


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Harald Braumann]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:04:05 +0100
Johannes Wiedersich  wrote:

> Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:28:09PM +, Russell Coker wrote:
> >> The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it
> >> clear that Joss was intending to make an insinuation of
> >> homosexuality in order to offend.
> > 
> > I'm really speechless... I mean, even from you I'm still not sure
> > it's not a practical joke.
> 
> I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely
> different understanding of the English language used in all these
> matters than almost every one else in the world. 
Well, the same expression exists in German, the stick just goes
in the other end. Do you see any "fellatial" connotation there?

Cheers,
harry, who is quite puzzled by so much stiffness


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Barry deFreese]

Marco d'Itri wrote:

On Dec 18, Russell Coker  wrote:

  
The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian 
community.  It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of conduct.
Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for Ubuntu would 
fail for Debian?


They get paid? In my experience this helps a lot to be nicer to stupid
people.

  

No, MOTUs are held to the same CoC and are definetly NOT paid.


Barry deFreese


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Marco d'Itri]

On Dec 18, Holger Levsen  wrote:

> To those thinking about expelling Joss, I'm in favor of this now. Trolling on 
> purpose (repeatetly) for the sake of it is nothing I want to see in Debian 
> nor do I want to see it as accepted behaviour. 
Come on... We had a DPL who hosted the browser exploits and shock sites
which were used to flood #wikipedia and #gentoo, a developer using some
rethoric in a debate is not too bad by comparison.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Marco d'Itri]

On Dec 18, Russell Coker  wrote:

> The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian 
> community.  It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of conduct.
> Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for Ubuntu would 
> fail for Debian?
They get paid? In my experience this helps a lot to be nicer to stupid
people.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Marco d'Itri]

On Dec 18, Stefano Zacchiroli  wrote:

> FWIW, I'm way more annoyed by _frequent_ OT blog posts totally
> unrelated to Debian on Planet Debian (even though I enjoy _sporadic_
> OTs) than by Joss posts.
Me too! I really do not feel the need to learn how much the personal
life of other developers sucks or see photos of your cats (no matter how
much I like cats).
Hint: if I cared about the intimate details of your life, I would be
your friend.

-- 
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Marco


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Marco d'Itri]

On Dec 18, Russell Coker  wrote:

> He has stated 
> that he intends to keep offending people.  His aim seems to be the censorship 
> of people who disagree with him by continually offending them until they stop 
> disagreeing.
I am quite sure that this is not a new meaning of "censorship" I was not
yet aware...
I hope that you are drunk, on drugs or both. Otherwise justifying such a
stupid argument will be very embarassing.

> I believe that we need a code of conduct for the Planet.  The Ubuntu code of 
Maybe we first need a code of conduct for mailing lists.
I propose that we start with something simple like "don't be an idiot".

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Friday 19 December 2008 01:04:05 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :
> Joss, it is disappointing that after all that time since your faux pas
> [1], you still seem to fail to understand that what might be acceptable
> within one culture (I don't speak or understand 'French') will not
> necessarily be acceptable for all the other thousands of recipients of
> your posts.

I why couldn't you just accept other cultural expressions ? If people have a 
different understanding than yours, why should yours be the reference ?



Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Russell Coker]

On Friday 19 December 2008 10:01, Romain Beauxis  wrote:
> Well, you could also argue that "in intend to offend" means "present things
> as if it was offensent", much like when calling someone a geek is meant as
> an insult...

Exactly.

Also I had a brief off-list discussion with Joss about this in which I said of 
the post in question:
# I actually wasn't offended.  It merely confirmed my already low opinion of 
# you.

It seems a great stretch to claim that I am homophobic when I have already 
stated that I was not offended by the post in question.

It's the desire to offend others that I find offensive in this case.

-- 
russ...@coker.com.au
http://etbe.coker.com.au/  My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/   My Documents Blog


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Norbert Preining]

On Do, 18 Dez 2008, Russell Coker wrote:
> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the 
> Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad 
> behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.

Oh bummer. Normally I never write something in these useless threads, I
prefer packaging.

But now it is really getting on my nerves.

If you are so icky-picky and can't stand some bad jokes, than I am sorry
for all of you, but please get a real life.

The email of Josselin to d-d-a made me laugh quite a lot, and his posts
mentioned here are all within the rules.

So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political
correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere
else.

The last thing I want is Debian ending up in the horrible mess and
morast of "anglophonic-political-correctness-shit".

I myself do recount many sexist jokes, and count myself as far from
being a women-mistreater as anyone. 

Everyone of those overly masculine-but-we-dont-say-something here ever
heard what women are talking about men. Come on, that is normality, no
problem with that.

If someone is hurt so easily, and if some female DD think about leaving
the project for that email of Josselin I would say, puuh, fine, rid of
that overly-sensitive "ps someone stepped on my toe ps" girlies.

Best wishes

Norbert

For my German friends I add my personal expression of the
"equal-opportunity law" on universities etc: Eierstockparagraph. Nobody
actually believes that it *helps* women, and I can give good reasons
that these stupidity concocted from Feminist-zealots are actually
*hurting* the situation of women, but this is a different story.

---
Dr. Norbert Preining Vienna University of Technology
Debian Developer  Debian TeX Group
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--- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:28:09PM +, Russell Coker wrote:
>> The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that 
>> Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to 
>> offend.
> 
> I'm really speechless... I mean, even from you I'm still not sure it's
> not a practical joke.

I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely
different understanding of the English language used in all these
matters than almost every one else in the world. I guess it is really
time that Joss realizes that what might have been OK to be written in
French is considered an insult when written in English to thousands of
readers from different cultural backgrounds.

Joss, it is disappointing that after all that time since your faux pas
[1], you still seem to fail to understand that what might be acceptable
within one culture (I don't speak or understand 'French') will not
necessarily be acceptable for all the other thousands of recipients of
your posts.

If there are some that have rigid attitudes, it seems to be the French
-- for their failure to accept that the world contains people that beg
to differ with the 'French opinion' or have a different kind of 'humor'.

I can only with a little bit of confidence speak of the German
interpretation of what has been said. More than one of Joss's statements
 appear as rather infantile. It's a pity that this grand old lady of an
operating system and serious software is being dragged into the aura of
these immature ramblings.

JMHO,

Johannes

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faux_pas


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Sam Hocevar]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Russell Coker wrote:

> The expression "broomstick in their arse" is also common in Australian 
> culture.  It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation 
> of homosexuality.
> 
> However Josselin made it quite clear that he was not using the term as a 
> collaquialism, but that he was directly referring to sodomy by his link to 
> the French web page in question.
>
> http://np237.livejournal.com/21451.html
> 
> The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that 
> Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to 
> offend.

   Oh then it's all right you know, because it's latex, not leather.

   Also, in the world I live in, anal sex and homosexuality are
orthogonal concepts and people can have or not have any of each. I don't
understand why you are now adding homosexuality to the discussion unless
you wish to cause even more drama.

Cheers,
-- 
Sam.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Thursday 18 December 2008 23:46:25 Josselin Mouette, vous avez écrit :
> So, if I follow you:
> leather -> homosexuality
> homosexuality -> offense
>
> And by saying both of these, you dare say that I am offensive ‽

Well, you could also argue that "in intend to offend" means "present things as 
if it was offensent", much like when calling someone a geek is meant as an 
insult...

However, Russel's interpretation clearly doesn't match mine too.

Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 09:28 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit :
> The expression "broomstick in their arse" is also common in Australian 
> culture.  It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation 
> of homosexuality.

Homosexuality can be an *accusation* ‽

> The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that 
> Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to 
> offend.

So, if I follow you:
leather -> homosexuality
homosexuality -> offense

And by saying both of these, you dare say that I am offensive ‽

You are really one of the most intolerant and homophobic bigots I have
had a conversation with. You may convey it with a polite tone that would
suit the Ubuntu code of conduct, but your rhetoric is full of hate and
contempt.

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`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Pierre Habouzit]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:28:09PM +, Russell Coker wrote:
> On Friday 19 December 2008 08:53, Romain Beauxis  wrote:
> > Being french too, I can assure you that pretending that someone has a
> > broomstick in its ass is a very common expression for someone who it too
> > much rigid. It is commonly used, and doesn't really shock, as far as I
> > know. Probably it is the same with "kill him" or throwing away one's shoes
> > (!) in other cultures..
> 
> The expression "broomstick in their arse" is also common in Australian 
> culture.  It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation 
> of homosexuality.
> 
> However Josselin made it quite clear that he was not using the term as a 
> collaquialism, but that he was directly referring to sodomy by his link to 
> the French web page in question.
> 
> http://np237.livejournal.com/21451.html
> 
> The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that 
> Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to 
> offend.

I'm really speechless... I mean, even from you I'm still not sure it's
not a practical joke.

"Avoir un balai dans le cul" has to do with the "rigidity" of if. It
alludes to people being obtuse and taking offense from completely silly
things. A bit like you're doing actually. But of course, I'm only
French, and for sure you know more than French people if "Avoir un balai
dans le cul" is colloquial or not.
-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··Omadco...@debian.org
OOOhttp://www.madism.org


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2008-12-18, Russell Coker  wrote:
> culture.  It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation 
> of homosexuality.

> Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to 
> offend.

I think you are seeing ghosts or just being prejudistic against
homosexuals.

/Sune


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Russell Coker]

On Friday 19 December 2008 08:53, Romain Beauxis  wrote:
> > http://np237.livejournal.com/20741.html
> >
> > That method was attempted, the response from Josselin was "I will go on
> > shocking these people", along with several references to sodomy with a
> > broomstick and a link to a French web page which (according to Google
> > translation) has some detail about a sex act concerning a broomstick.
> >  See the above URL for details.
> >
> > Obviously simply telling him doesn't work.
>
> Well, the mention of this specific message was not in your initial mail. At
> least it gives ground to your claim.
>
> Honnestly, you don't share the irony pointed in the text. However, there
> was nothing personal in it. Furthermore, the perception of the tone and
> level of speech depends on the various culture.

Linking to messages by me, Manoj, and Miriam (in the "one of them" links 
section) is a direct personal attack.

> Being french too, I can assure you that pretending that someone has a
> broomstick in its ass is a very common expression for someone who it too
> much rigid. It is commonly used, and doesn't really shock, as far as I
> know. Probably it is the same with "kill him" or throwing away one's shoes
> (!) in other cultures..

The expression "broomstick in their arse" is also common in Australian 
culture.  It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation 
of homosexuality.

However Josselin made it quite clear that he was not using the term as a 
collaquialism, but that he was directly referring to sodomy by his link to 
the French web page in question.

http://np237.livejournal.com/21451.html

The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that 
Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to 
offend.

> > The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the
> > Debian community.  It seems that they don't have a problem with the code
> > of conduct.   Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well
> > for Ubuntu would fail for Debian?
>
> Because we don't have the same culture. We don't work the same way, we do
> not have the same population and etc...

What cultural difference is there between Ubuntu and Debian apart from a 
tolerance for trolls?

-- 
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http://etbe.coker.com.au/  My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/   My Documents Blog


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Eduard Bloch]

#include 
* Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]:
> http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7991
> 
> From the above news article:
> # Debian Project Leader Steve McIntyre told iTWire that after Mouette's "abuse

I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT
OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling.

So how did Steve feed them, did he at all?

Regards,
Eduard.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

(I answer since there is a question adressed..)

Le Thursday 18 December 2008 22:01:17 Russell Coker, vous avez écrit :
> On Friday 19 December 2008 06:28, Romain Beauxis  
wrote:
> > The initial proposition of this thread was this idea of code of conduct..
> >  I don't like it either. If you believe someone is being too rude, why
> > don't you simply tell it to him, in public or in private ?
>
> http://np237.livejournal.com/20741.html
>
> That method was attempted, the response from Josselin was "I will go on
> shocking these people", along with several references to sodomy with a
> broomstick and a link to a French web page which (according to Google
> translation) has some detail about a sex act concerning a broomstick.  See
> the above URL for details.
>
> Obviously simply telling him doesn't work.

Well, the mention of this specific message was not in your initial mail. At 
least it gives ground to your claim.

Honnestly, you don't share the irony pointed in the text. However, there was 
nothing personal in it. Furthermore, the perception of the tone and level of 
speech depends on the various culture. 

Being french too, I can assure you that pretending that someone has a 
broomstick in its ass is a very common expression for someone who it too much 
rigid. It is commonly used, and doesn't really shock, as far as I know. 
Probably it is the same with "kill him" or throwing away one's shoes (!) in 
other cultures..

> The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian
> community.  It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of
> conduct.   Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for
> Ubuntu would fail for Debian?

Because we don't have the same culture. We don't work the same way, we do not 
have the same population and etc...


Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Russell Coker]

On Friday 19 December 2008 06:28, Romain Beauxis  wrote:
> The initial proposition of this thread was this idea of code of conduct..
>  I don't like it either. If you believe someone is being too rude, why
> don't you simply tell it to him, in public or in private ?

http://np237.livejournal.com/20741.html

That method was attempted, the response from Josselin was "I will go on 
shocking these people", along with several references to sodomy with a 
broomstick and a link to a French web page which (according to Google 
translation) has some detail about a sex act concerning a broomstick.  See 
the above URL for details.

Obviously simply telling him doesn't work.

The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian 
community.  It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of conduct.  
Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for Ubuntu would 
fail for Debian?

-- 
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http://etbe.coker.com.au/  My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/   My Documents Blog


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Dan]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:28:21PM +0100, Romain Beauxis wrote:
> And if the jokes don't make you laugh, just ignore them.
Which of course would be easier to do if the jokes were not told in the
first place. There's a time and place for everything, it's a shame
that a few seem to think that this list is one of them.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Thursday 18 December 2008 19:12:29 Martin Langhoff, vous avez écrit :
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Ron Johnson  wrote:
> > Manners, Josselin, and discretion.  There are some places where it's just
> > not appropriate to blurt out whatever you're thinking.
>
> +10 from here.
>
> Of course, Josselin thinks and jokes differently from others, as it's
> natural to do. When in a large cross-cultural project, it's a good
> idea to be tactful. That's how people show they respect others.

Like telling in public to someone that he's your new X ?

I agree with you, but I fail to see how Josselin is worse. Yes he does bad 
jokes and sometimes some remarks can probably be taken personaly, but I don't 
think he ever called for killing someone, even ironically (for what it means 
to be ironic about murder).

There's a general track on being too rude, but I don't think you can blame a 
single guy for that. 


I won't spoil this thread anymore, but making things like this personal really 
makes me sad. Problems of a group are usually solved by the group as a whole, 
not by throwing out a designated culprit. We did before, and some of you 
might have noticed that this was not a solution to the issue.

The initial proposition of this thread was this idea of code of conduct..  I 
don't like it either. If you believe someone is being too rude, why don't you 
simply tell it to him, in public or in private ?

Using a code of conduct puts more bureaucracy whereas everyone knows 
that email communication (and similar) tend to create anger just because you 
don't get the implicit message, tone, irony and etc... There's no need for a 
code, only some more communication between us.

And if the jokes don't make you laugh, just ignore them.

Cheers,

Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Martin Langhoff]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Ron Johnson  wrote:
> Manners, Josselin, and discretion.  There are some places where it's just
> not appropriate to blurt out whatever you're thinking.

+10 from here.

Of course, Josselin thinks and jokes differently from others, as it's
natural to do. When in a large cross-cultural project, it's a good
idea to be tactful. That's how people show they respect others.

cheers,



m
-- 
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Cyril Brulebois]

Holger Levsen  (18/12/2008):
> To those thinking about expelling Joss, I'm in favor of this now.

OOH, that's the season, maybe?

> Trolling on purpose (repeatetly) for the sake of it is nothing I want
> to see in Debian nor do I want to see it as accepted behaviour.

Just for the record, Joss didn't start this thread and didn't exhume
this subject.

You could propose a patch against Constitution, Devref, Policy, List
Policy, or whatever, to clarify what level of trolling is accepted
behaviour. We don't have that yet, which is a shame. Nothing too
dramatic, though. That can easily be fixed.

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Thursday 18 December 2008 18:21:48 Holger Levsen, vous avez écrit :
> To those thinking about expelling Joss, I'm in favor of this now. Trolling
> on purpose (repeatetly) for the sake of it is nothing I want to see in
> Debian nor do I want to see it as accepted behaviour.

You can't be serious.

Josseling is *not* trolling for nothing. Most of the people, exactly like the 
censors in real life never really question the reasons why they get shocked.

When Josselin is, as you said, trolling, it mostly consists in a humoristic 
way of having people think about something. And, yes, humour *is* 
provocative.

It is interesting to see how we all agree on "having fun in debian", but never 
actually laught. Send a picture of two grils kissing and people complain, 
send a pastiche (to the wrong destination probably), and people complain for 
it being sexism.

Then, what is fun to you ? And, moreover, how do you qualify the level of 
tolerance to other ideas *and* expressions ?

Now, because I like when there a bit of irony (which qualifies as humour), let 
me propose you the following logical paradox:

"I hereby ask for my own removal on the ground of me trolling on purpose with 
this sentence."

Cheers,

Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

kindergarten and western civilisation indeed would be a good idea. 

To those thinking about expelling Joss, I'm in favor of this now. Trolling on 
purpose (repeatetly) for the sake of it is nothing I want to see in Debian 
nor do I want to see it as accepted behaviour. 


regards,
Holger

P.S.: it's not about the content of the previous messages, I like dogs for 
dinner. Its about willfullingly trolling and not having learned a tiny bit of 
respect for other humans.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Thursday 18 December 2008 18:08:00 Josselin Mouette, vous avez écrit :
> Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 17:49 +0100, Romain Beauxis a écrit :
> > I eat kittens at breakfast
>
> How do you cook them?
>
> I like European cats a lot, but I heard the Siamese meat is more tender.
> Do you have some advice?

The secret for a good kitten meat is: the more they suffer, the more tender is 
the meat.. 

I guess that it is for similar reasons that we have a good project !

:-D

Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 17:49 +0100, Romain Beauxis a écrit :
> I eat kittens at breakfast

How do you cook them?

I like European cats a lot, but I heard the Siamese meat is more tender.
Do you have some advice?

-- 
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Romain Beauxis wrote:
> Le Thursday 18 December 2008 16:37:38 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :
>>The point is it was an 'announcement' and it
>> was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many.
> 
> I fully disagree.
> 
> If I say "I eat kittens at breakfast"(*) here or in planet.debian.org, how is 
> it relevant to the project ? 

Just for clarification: I was talking about the announcement mail, not
about anything on this list or on planet.

Cheers,

Johannes
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Thursday 18 December 2008 16:37:38 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :
> Julien BLACHE wrote:
> > I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> > qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> > developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say
> > anything "official" is project communication, that effectively goes to
> > debian-announce.
>
> d-d-a has 5700 subscribers [1] and is archived/mirrored around the
> world. Non-developers by far outnumber developers in subscribing that
> list. It doesn't really matter, if it's an 'officially endorsed' message
> from the project or not, the point is it was an 'announcement' and it
> was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many.

I fully disagree.

If I say "I eat kittens at breakfast"(*) here or in planet.debian.org, how is 
it relevant to the project ? Even though it could be read by many and 
reproduced in a lot of places, the project never said it supports having 
kitten for breakfast, even though *some* developpers might actually say it.

The question is not about what is said but about the scope of the 
communication. "official" has a meaning which is clear. It is the composition 
of an official position *and* an official communication channel. 

Any argument that blurs this distinction will only make the project less 
reliable and reduce the various opinions of people in the project, which 
means free speech.

I *do* like when people express various points, including one that I do not 
agree with. And we don't want DDs to have all the same ideas, right ?


Romain

(*) The true answer to this question remains private :-P


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Julien BLACHE]

Michael Banck  wrote:

> Like it or not, messages to d-d-a are frequently forwarded verbatim to
> LWN and other major IT-centered news sources.  This happen much less

Pretty much everything and anything ends up there, so that's hardly a
criterion for relevance or whatever.

JB.

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Noah Slater]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 04:45:07PM +0100, Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008, Russell Coker wrote:
> > He has stated that he intends to keep offending people. His aim seems
> > to be the censorship of people who disagree with him by continually
> > offending them until they stop disagreeing.
>
> Come on, you're defacing reality and Josselin's statements...
>
> What he said is clear: he'll continue expressing himself freely (as in
> free speech, remember?) even though some people feel offended. That's a
> proof a courage, as long as he doesn't fall into illegality.
>
> Quite different, isn't it?

Not only that, but "I will continue shocking people" could be taken as an intent
or a prediction of people's reactions. Either he intends to shock people
purposefully or he fully expects people to continue to be shocked. You really
have put words into his mouth, and I don't think that's right. Also a bit funny
that you intend to solve "censorship" (not that I agree) with more censorship.

-- 
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Mohammed Adnène Trojette]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008, Russell Coker wrote:
> He has stated that he intends to keep offending people. His aim seems
> to be the censorship of people who disagree with him by continually
> offending them until they stop disagreeing.

Come on, you're defacing reality and Josselin's statements...

What he said is clear: he'll continue expressing himself freely (as in
free speech, remember?) even though some people feel offended. That's a
proof a courage, as long as he doesn't fall into illegality.

Quite different, isn't it?

-- 
Mohammed Adnène Trojette


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Julien BLACHE wrote:
> I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say
> anything "official" is project communication, that effectively goes to
> debian-announce.

d-d-a has 5700 subscribers [1] and is archived/mirrored around the
world. Non-developers by far outnumber developers in subscribing that
list. It doesn't really matter, if it's an 'officially endorsed' message
from the project or not, the point is it was an 'announcement' and it
was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many.

> I essentially wanted to set the record straight as various things have
> been written about d-d-a and its purpose after Joss' post, here and
> elsewhere, mistaking d-d-a for d-a.

No doubt, the harm would have been bigger, if it had been posted to d-a
instead. But even then some would argue that it's not so bad, because it
could have been even worse...

Cheers,

Johannes

[1] http://lists.debian.org/stats/
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Michael Banck]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 03:53:09PM +0100, Romain Beauxis wrote:
> Le Thursday 18 December 2008 15:45:05 Michael Banck, vous avez écrit :
> > > I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> > > qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> > > developers.
> >
> > Wrong.  While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/,
> > d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important
> > information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news.
> > The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean
> > others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point.
> 
> With this kind of sloppy argument, everything that anyone interested in 
> Debian 
> may read should be considered as "official", including the planet.

Like it or not, messages to d-d-a are frequently forwarded verbatim to
LWN and other major IT-centered news sources.  This happen much less
frequently with other Debian sources, besides, of course, debian-news and
debian-announce.


Michael


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Thursday 18 December 2008 15:45:05 Michael Banck, vous avez écrit :
> > I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> > qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> > developers.
>
> Wrong.  While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/,
> d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important
> information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news.
> The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean
> others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point.

With this kind of sloppy argument, everything that anyone interested in Debian 
may read should be considered as "official", including the planet.

I somehow don't really believe you are being right :)


Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Michael Banck]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 03:15:38PM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> Stefano Zacchiroli  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> >> Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
> >> debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.
> >
> > You are a bit picky, you know? :-)
> 
> I don't think so; setting the record straight isn't being picky :)
> 
> > Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I
> > skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect
> > in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong.
> 
> I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> developers. 

Wrong.  While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/,
d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important
information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news.
The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean
others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point.


Michael


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Ron Johnson]

On 12/18/08 06:26, Josselin Mouette wrote:

Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 23:04 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit :
The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the 
Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad 
behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.


What do you want to say, actually? Apart from the fact (that we all
already know) that you can’t tolerate the very idea that people can have
an approach to human relationships different from yours?


Manners, Josselin, and discretion.  There are some places where it's 
just not appropriate to blurt out whatever you're thinking.


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
What different abilities do I have?


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Julien BLACHE]

Stefano Zacchiroli  wrote:

Hi,

>> Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
>> debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.
>
> You are a bit picky, you know? :-)

I don't think so; setting the record straight isn't being picky :)

> Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I
> skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect
> in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say
anything "official" is project communication, that effectively goes to
debian-announce.

I essentially wanted to set the record straight as various things have
been written about d-d-a and its purpose after Joss' post, here and
elsewhere, mistaking d-d-a for d-a.

JB.

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 02:34:09PM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> > them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an
> > "official" message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have
> > d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been
> 
> Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
> debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.

You are a bit picky, you know? :-)

Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I
skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect
in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Julien BLACHE]

Stefano Zacchiroli  wrote:

Hi,

> them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an
> "official" message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have
> d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been

Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.

Check the descriptions for both lists on lists.debian.org.

JB.

-- 
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 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Florian Weimer]

* Russell Coker:

> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the 
> Debian project.

I don't think it's fair to hold Josselin responsible for what that
particular author writes, no matter what you think of his actions.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:04:24PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
> As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do 
> not belong on Planet Debian

This sounds like an oxymoron to me.

FWIW, I'm way more annoyed by _frequent_ OT blog posts totally
unrelated to Debian on Planet Debian (even though I enjoy _sporadic_
OTs) than by Joss posts.

A planet is just a planet, i.e. an aggregation of blogs which by their
own nature can contain strong opinions and strong way of expressing
them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an
"official" message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have
d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been
appropriately blamed for), Planet is something else.

Live with that.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Romain Beauxis]

Le Thursday 18 December 2008 13:04:24 Russell Coker, vous avez écrit :
> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the
> Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian,
> bad behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.

I have that feeling that you are using the project to express personal 
disagrement. Why don't you rephrase this using "I" instead of "the project" ?

I had some strong discussions with Joss, but I would never support such 
proposition.

By the way, this is yet another recursive trolling subject. I can probably 
start the discussion on "COPYING files are not DFSG" now :-)


Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 23:04 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit :
> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the 
> Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad 
> behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.

What do you want to say, actually? Apart from the fact (that we all
already know) that you can’t tolerate the very idea that people can have
an approach to human relationships different from yours?

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

[Simon Huggins]

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:04:24PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
> As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do 
> not belong on Planet Debian - which is for many people the public face of 
> Debian.

To be clear, this means that as the Debian culture is opposed to
censorship, you want to censor him?

-- 
 _hug...@earth.li  -+*+- fou, con et anglais  _
(_) "Even if it does matter, does it matter that it matters?" -  (_)
(_)Marvin(_)
  \______/


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