Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
Quoting Christian Perrier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > Package: language-chooser > Severity: normal #215205on languagechooser package (and not language-chooser :-)))
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 09:06:06AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: > Finding a realistic criterion would be Good, maybe. Either the most used > languages all over the world, or the languages for which Debian is most > translated (french would become first, maybe..?:-))), or something based on > developer number (german would then come first...)...or whatever else Can you have it vary depending on the requirements of the distributor? So if I distribute Debian in France, I would change it so french is the language that appears at the top? PS. please learn to use the "X-Debbugs-CC:" BTS header. -- Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 09:06:06AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: > > I would suggest adopting a policy for the language order. Of course, > determining the "most important" languages is a very delicate thing as > everyone would like to have his own language listed on the first page. > I tried to propose this a while back: Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Please re-read the thread: http://lists.debian.org/debian-i18n/2002/debian-i18n-200203/msg00016.html And I also highlighted this issue in my Debconf3 talk (slides available at http://people.debian.org/~jfs/debconf/i18n) > Finding a realistic criterion would be Good, maybe. Either the most used > languages all over the world, or the languages for which Debian is most > translated (french would become first, maybe..?:-))), or something based on I'm not sure French would be the first one, there are a number of areas in which other languages surpass French :-) > developer number (german would then come first...)...or whatever else > I suggest you come up with a sort of criteria and submit them for discussion. Some come to mind, either global: criteria based on the percentage of population that talks a given language (based on ethnologic data), criteria based on the languages things (books, movies..) get translated into (transalation demanded world wide), which the UNESCO provides data about, or Debian specific: vitality of user/translators mailing lists, translated/localised programs, translated/localised debconf templates, traslated/localised documentation. >From my point of view, languagechooser should base its ordering in a very simple metric a) Order languages based on how up-to-date and translated is the the debian-installation, b) In case of a tie, order language by usage as a mother tongue worl-wide (first Chinese, then Spanish, then English, then Bengali, then Hindi) This should be based on some real-world data like http://www.the-bag-lady.co.uk/wct/wf/index.asp?cont=worldlanguages or http://www.ethnologue.com/web.asp So, in the event of the debian-installer being available fully-translated in the following languages: English, French, Spanish, German, Portuguese and Japanese, the order would be: English, Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, German, French. > > This should probably be discussed in a very general mailing list as this > impacts a very sensitive pointbut expect no consensus reached. And that mailing list is debian-i18n, not debian-devel. However, if no consensus is going to be reached, what is the point of asking this to be done? Regards Javi
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 03:18:46PM +0200, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña wrote: > From my point of view, languagechooser should base its ordering in a very > simple metric Alphabetic on eighter the locale or the official language name for default debian. If debian is rebranded and possible localized, it makes sence for them to reorder those. In that case the package could support this. But it is no requirement for the stock distribution. > So, in the event of the debian-installer being available fully-translated > in the following languages: English, French, Spanish, German, Portuguese > and Japanese, the order would be: English, Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, > German, French. It is a good idea to list for the installer only the languages which are available. In that case they fix on one screen. Personally I hate it if lists are not sorted in an easy to scan way. Ordering items in a most-preffered way only works if it is a short list of items, separated by the rest (which needs to be sorted alphabetically) And this will not increase the combined "scan time" from all users, because you can much easier go down a list of entries where you know you can skip hundreds (by first letter) compared to a list which you have to go down and match entry by entry. Greetings Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/93600EFD [EMAIL PROTECTED] +497257930613 BE5-RIPE (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 05:02:50PM +0200, Bernd Eckenfels wrote: > And this will not increase the combined "scan time" from all users, because > you can much easier go down a list of entries where you know you can skip > hundreds (by first letter) compared to a list which you have to go down and > match entry by entry. Not when the entry I want is alternatively "American English", "English", or "US/English" ... -- Glenn Maynard
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 11:50:31AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote: > Not when the entry I want is alternatively "American English", "English", or > "US/English" ... thats why it is best to sort by the locale en_* Greetings Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/93600EFD [EMAIL PROTECTED] +497257930613 BE5-RIPE (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 05:02:50PM +0200, Bernd Eckenfels wrote: > On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 03:18:46PM +0200, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña > wrote: > > From my point of view, languagechooser should base its ordering in a very > > simple metric > > Alphabetic on eighter the locale or the official language name for > default debian. Sounds OK (but what is eighter?). > If debian is rebranded and possible localized, it makes sense for them to > reorder those. In that case the package could support this. But it is no > requirement for the stock distribution. > > > So, in the event of the debian-installer being available fully-translated > > in the following languages: English, French, Spanish, German, Portuguese > > and Japanese, the order would be: English, Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, > > German, French. > > It is a good idea to list for the installer only the languages which > are available. In that case they fix on one screen. > > Personally I hate it if lists are not sorted in an easy to scan way. > Ordering items in a most-preferred way only works if it is a short list of > items, separated by the rest (which needs to be sorted alphabetically) Please do not forget default "C" environment is (basically) English. Others are all optional feature. > And this will not increase the combined "scan time" from all users, because > you can much easier go down a list of entries where you know you can skip > hundreds (by first letter) compared to a list which you have to go down and > match entry by entry. Realistic solution of situation shall be follows: 1. The list order shall be easily configurable to address localized distribution with following type of information. * Priority order list * Local limitation list 2. Debian (official) should ship language chooser with: * Priority order list: C List C (en_US) as top and the rest alphabetically listed * Local limitation list: none All available locale listed. 3. Localized Debian distribution may choose as follows: ASIA: * Priority order list: C, zh_CN, zh_TW * Local limitation list: C, zh_CN, zh_TW, ko_KR, ja_JP, fr_FR AMERICA: * Priority order list: C, en_US, fr_FR, es_MX, pt_BR * Local limitation list: none ... Just a thoughts...
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
Bernd Eckenfels wrote: > On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 11:50:31AM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote: > > Not when the entry I want is alternatively "American English", "English", or > > "US/English" ... > > thats why it is best to sort by the locale en_* Sort using what locale? How many users know the locale name of their language? Sorting has big problems. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 11 October 2003 17:04, Osamu Aoki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 05:02:50PM +0200, Bernd Eckenfels wrote: > > Alphabetic on eighter the locale or the official language name for > > default debian. > > Sounds OK (but what is eighter?). either? Regards, Paul Cupis - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAj+IMDYACgkQIzuKV+SHX/kK8wCffTNp4tYxeG74pg7lrWtyCdpd u5cAnR2uYVsvnvIs3yjZl4s5+BTgrXGo =TG4o -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 06:04:32PM +0200, Osamu Aoki wrote: > 2. Debian (official) should ship language chooser with: > * Priority order list: C > List C (en_US) as top and the rest alphabetically listed en_US is normally UTF-8 or ISO-8859-1. "C" is ASCII. "C" is not (even roughly) equivalent to "en_US". -- Glenn Maynard
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 12:33:28PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > How many users know the locale name of their language? If they dont know, then using debian will educate them right there in this point. But besides that, since the locale name is not too far away from the language name in most cases, I dont think anybody has problems with that. Greetings Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/93600EFD [EMAIL PROTECTED] +497257930613 BE5-RIPE (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 06:36:45PM +0200, Bernd Eckenfels wrote: > If they dont know, then using debian will educate them right there in this > point. But besides that, since the locale name is not too far away from the > language name in most cases, I dont think anybody has problems with that. I'm sure it'd be nice to educate users on every little bit of technology running their computer, but users simply shouldn't need to know what "en_US" means, and "English (United States)" makes a lot more sense. -- Glenn Maynard
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 12:56:29PM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote: > I'm sure it'd be nice to educate users on every little bit of technology > running their computer, but users simply shouldn't need to know what > "en_US" means, and "English (United States)" makes a lot more sense. Well, it is a long way until you do not need to know that, for operating Linux. I mean hell, even windows uses "EN" and "DE" as the keyboard language indicator or preferenced browser languages. And I think it is good, that debian still leaves me the option to be a knowledgeable computer user. For example picking a charset by id (ISO8859-15, latin9) more comfortable than the Windows way of saying "Charset used in western Europe". Please keep it that way. Since Debian is not only for end users, but also for experienced users, this list needs to include the locale names anyway. There are so many places where you are confronted with nation and language identifiers. I doubt you can ignore them. And even if they are not the same (TLD, car-signs, language2, language 3, nationality) they are for sure common knowledge (at least your own) Greetings Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://home.pages.de/~eckes/ o--o *plush* 2048/93600EFD [EMAIL PROTECTED] +497257930613 BE5-RIPE (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 07:20:58PM +0200, Bernd Eckenfels wrote: > > I'm sure it'd be nice to educate users on every little bit of technology > > running their computer, but users simply shouldn't need to know what > > "en_US" means, and "English (United States)" makes a lot more sense. > > Well, it is a long way until you do not need to know that, for operating > Linux. I mean hell, even windows uses "EN" and "DE" as the keyboard language > indicator or preferenced browser languages. I had never even typed "en_US" until I started playing with UTF-8 a couple years ago. And even if it was "a long way", which it certainly isn't: displaying readable language/country combinations in programs like "language-chooser" is a simple solution. > And I think it is good, that debian still leaves me the option to be a > knowledgeable computer user. For example picking a charset by id > (ISO8859-15, latin9) more comfortable than the Windows way of saying > "Charset used in western Europe". Please keep it that way. Certainly having an option to select these things is useful, and nobody is suggesting that be disallowed. I see no good reason to force them on users, however. I wouldn't even show encodings at all unless the user asks for a complete display. Allowing advanced users to be advanced users is not mutually exclusive with allowing casual users to be casual users. Don't try to force casual users to become advanced users. -- Glenn Maynard
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
Hi, On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 12:33:28PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > Sort using what locale? > > How many users know the locale name of their language? > > Sorting has big problems. What about grouping by continent and only sorting within these groups? This would be comprehensible by the user and lead to easier to parse lists. Jochen -- http://seehuhn.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 07:09:56PM +0100, Jochen Voss wrote: > Hi, > On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 12:33:28PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > > Sort using what locale? > > How many users know the locale name of their language? > > Sorting has big problems. > What about grouping by continent and only > sorting within these groups? This would be > comprehensible by the user and lead to easier > to parse lists. One posts suggested that fr_FR would be on the lists for both America and Asia. Portuguese is spoken on four continents, and I think the Brazilian Portuguese translations are sufficiently complete that many other Portuguese speakers would prefer them over English. Continents don't really seem to map very well to the language preferences of the people who live there. :) -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
Hello, On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 02:13:33PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: > One posts suggested that fr_FR would be on the lists for both America > and Asia. Portuguese is spoken on four continents, and I think the > Brazilian Portuguese translations are sufficiently complete that many > other Portuguese speakers would prefer them over English. Continents > don't really seem to map very well to the language preferences of the > people who live there. :) Huh? fr_FR is frensh as spoken in France, so Europe. And pt_BR (or whatever it is called) is Portuguese as spoken in Brazil and would be in the South America category, while pt_PT (or whatever the real name is) would be in the Europe category (for Portuguese as spoken in Portugal). So if you are living in Brazil you will select "South America" and only see pt_BR but not pt_PT. I still think that this could be useful. Jochen -- http://seehuhn.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 12:35:24PM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote: > On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 06:04:32PM +0200, Osamu Aoki wrote: > > 2. Debian (official) should ship language chooser with: > > * Priority order list: C > > List C (en_US) as top and the rest alphabetically listed > > en_US is normally UTF-8 or ISO-8859-1. "C" is ASCII. "C" is not > (even roughly) equivalent to "en_US". True. My intent was "Standard English messages in US style spelling using ASCII encoding". Osamu
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 09:14:56PM +0100, Jochen Voss wrote: > On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 02:13:33PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: > > One posts suggested that fr_FR would be on the lists for both America > > and Asia. Portuguese is spoken on four continents, and I think the > > Brazilian Portuguese translations are sufficiently complete that many > > other Portuguese speakers would prefer them over English. Continents > > don't really seem to map very well to the language preferences of the > > people who live there. :) > Huh? fr_FR is frensh as spoken in France, so Europe. > And pt_BR (or whatever it is called) is Portuguese as spoken > in Brazil and would be in the South America category, while > pt_PT (or whatever the real name is) would be in the Europe > category (for Portuguese as spoken in Portugal). > So if you are living in Brazil you will select "South America" > and only see pt_BR but not pt_PT. So Debian users in Angola or East Timor would have to click on either "South America" or "Europe" to be shown a Portuguese language option, since there are currently no d-i translators for either of these locales? Also, how do you display the names of the continents so that all of your non-English-speaking users can understand them? :) -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
Hi, On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 04:20:34PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: > So Debian users in Angola or East Timor would have to click on either > "South America" or "Europe" to be shown a Portuguese language option, > since there are currently no d-i translators for either of these > locales? Yes, I see that there are problems. > Also, how do you display the names of the continents so that all of your > non-English-speaking users can understand them? :) I did not try a fresh install of Debian for a long time. How do we display the language names now so that all of your non-English-speaking users can understand them? Would the "chinese" option (if there is one) be presented in chinese character glyphs? Jochen -- http://seehuhn.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
#include * Jochen Voss [Sat, Oct 11 2003, 11:32:33PM]: > > Also, how do you display the names of the continents so that all of your > > non-English-speaking users can understand them? :) > I did not try a fresh install of Debian for a long time. How > do we display the language names now so that all of your > non-English-speaking users can understand them? Would the > "chinese" option (if there is one) be presented in chinese > character glyphs? You really did not use the Woody installer before ;) We have worked with UTF-8 for a while now, every user sees the chars/glyphs/whatever in the appropriate charset. MfG, Eduard. -- Das Schaf, weil's brav, gilt drum als dumm. -- Bauernweisheit signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: language-chooser: Language order shouldn't be alphabetical
On Sat, Oct 11, 2003 at 11:32:33PM +0100, Jochen Voss wrote: > > > Also, how do you display the names of the continents so that all of your > > non-English-speaking users can understand them? :) > I did not try a fresh install of Debian for a long time. How > do we display the language names now so that all of your > non-English-speaking users can understand them? Would the (...) With a proper map. Make it point & click. That's by far the "easiest" way to make the user choose it. That has the caveat that the d-i has to support graphics (unless somedoby makes a really good ASCII map). Regards Javi pgpwbuBUY6JGh.pgp Description: PGP signature
