Re: request to kill nag messages

[Dale Scheetz]

On Mon, 24 May 1999, Joey Hess wrote:

> Dale Scheetz wrote:
> > One way to deal with this is to just mark all your bugs as wish list. The
> > nags don't react to wish list bugs ;-)
> 
> I hope you arn't seriously advocating that. It's fine for you, if you can
> keep straight whoch of the bugs are real bugs that need to be fixed. But if
> anyone else wants to look at and try to fix old bugs, they'll likely skip
> wishlisted items.

Please note the smiley face (and the wink). I was trying to be as
rediculous as the nag messages...

Luck,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

_-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Joey Hess]

Dale Scheetz wrote:
> One way to deal with this is to just mark all your bugs as wish list. The
> nags don't react to wish list bugs ;-)

I hope you arn't seriously advocating that. It's fine for you, if you can
keep straight whoch of the bugs are real bugs that need to be fixed. But if
anyone else wants to look at and try to fix old bugs, they'll likely skip
wishlisted items.

-- 
see shy jo

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Joey Hess]

Christian Kurz wrote:
> Well what is the problem with this? I don't see any offence in getting a
> message that says that I (the maintainer) has still open bug over a
> certain age. I think this is a good reminder for the maintainers as you
> may forget to fix bugs. Take a look at the ppp-package and how many open
> bugs there have been. The maintainer hadn't fixed them and so I helped
> him. (Sorry Phil, but this is a good example and No, I don't want to
> praise me with this). Or have you taken a look at the list on
> http://master.debian.org/~ajt/bugsbyage.txt? Have you seen how many open
> old bugs we got? How do you think we get this fixed without reminding
> the developers of their open bugs?

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that the BTS has a web
interface. It even has seperate pages listing all bugs owned by a
maintainer. Most web browsers have bookmark machanisms. I'll let you figure
the rest out for yourself.

-- 
see shy jo

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"Hamish" == Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 Hamish> What does that treatment involve exactly?

My lawyer says I should not answer this question.

 Hamish> Personally I can't see what the fuss is; I'd just delete it if
 Hamish> I didn't like it.

Ah, the classic refrain of spammers. Just hit the delete key
 if you do not like spam.

manoj
-- 
 "I'd love to go out with you, but it's my parakeet's bowling night."
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Joseph Carter]

On Sat, May 22, 1999 at 03:24:57PM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Someone wishing to have a reminder of bug status may choose to subscribe
> > to a report.
> > 
> > Closing bugs just because you can't fix them is wrong.
> 
> I *NEVER* said that one ought to do that, and AFAIK, nobody else did
> either.

Someone suggested the bugs shold be closed.

--
Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Debian GNU/Linux developer
PGP: E8D68481E3A8BB77 8EE22996C9445FBEThe Source Comes First!
-
I can just see it now: nomination-terrorism ;-)
-- Manoj

haha!  i nominate manoj.
-- seeS


pgpiN6jUCUBjv.pgp
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Re: request to kill nag messages

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:00:19AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >>"John" == John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>  John> I mean, fix bugs.  Then they can be closed.  I am aware that
>  John> not all bugs have easy solutions, but just because the solution
>  John> isn't easy doesn't mean that it is any less important to fix
>  John> it.
> 
> And unwanted, and unnecesary, periodic zero content nags help
>  this process how? Do they help me getting my tough bugs resolved?
>  What purpose are they serving, then? Why should they not be treated
>  as any other spam?

What does that treatment involve exactly?


Personally I can't see what the fuss is; I'd just delete it if
I didn't like it.


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB (ex-VK3TYD). 
CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome.

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"John" == John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 John> I mean, fix bugs.  Then they can be closed.  I am aware that
 John> not all bugs have easy solutions, but just because the solution
 John> isn't easy doesn't mean that it is any less important to fix
 John> it.

And unwanted, and unnecesary, periodic zero content nags help
 this process how? Do they help me getting my tough bugs resolved?
 What purpose are they serving, then? Why should they not be treated
 as any other spam?

manoj
-- 
 A visit to a strange place will bring fresh work.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Bdale Garbee]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> you wrote:
> I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent out.
> Can the script please be disabled. 

Absolutely.  I've asked before for the nag widget to be turned off, and I
strongly support turning it off now.

Yes, I have a couple of packages with very old bugs open (can you say "bind"?),
but getting nagged about them not only adds no value, it actively reduces my
interest in addressing the listed bugs.

Turn the damn thing off.

Bdale

Re: request to kill nag messages

[John Goerzen]

Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 21 May 1999, John Goerzen wrote:
> 
> > Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > 
> > > No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
> > > twice a week to every developer. 
> > 
> > I don't get such a report.
> 
> Probably because you are not subscribed to the bug-report mailing list ;-)
> 
> You have the choice to either recieve bug report synopsis this way, or not
> by whether you choose to subscribe, or not.
> 
> The nag messages are specifically designed so that individual developers
> may _not_ request they not recieve such mail.
> 
> If you can't see the principle involved in the difference between these
> two approaches, then I regret I will never be able to convince you there
> is, indeed, a difference.

I see the difference.  You were just saying that they were mailed to
every developer, and I am pointing out that that's not the case.

> There is a significant difference between a "reasoned" list of "critical
> release bugs" and the arbitrary "age" mechanism of the nag system. There
> are many _good_ reasons to leave a bug report open for an indefinite
> period of time. There is nothing inately evil about an open bug report.
> The nag message implies that exactly the opposite is the case.

Perhaps instead of just skirting the isue, why don't you name these
reasons so that we can discuss them directly?

-- 
John Goerzen   Linux, Unix consulting & programming   [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Developer, Debian GNU/Linux (Free powerful OS upgrade)   www.debian.org |
+
Remote from the Debian booth at Linux Expo

Re: request to kill nag messages

[John Goerzen]

Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Someone wishing to have a reminder of bug status may choose to subscribe
> to a report.
> 
> Closing bugs just because you can't fix them is wrong.

I *NEVER* said that one ought to do that, and AFAIK, nobody else did
either.

-- 
John Goerzen   Linux, Unix consulting & programming   [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Developer, Debian GNU/Linux (Free powerful OS upgrade)   www.debian.org |
+
Remote from the Debian booth at Linux Expo

Re: request to kill nag messages

[John Goerzen]

Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>  John> Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>  >> No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
>  >> twice a week to every developer. 
> 
>  John> I don't get such a report.
> 
> Because, unlike the nag reports, the bi-weekly reports (by
>  date and by maintainer) are optional; you may choose to subscribe top
>  the mailinglist.

I know that.  He said "every developer", which is not true.

>  John> The person already asked for a fix, and generally deserves a timely
>  John> fix.  Why not close the bugs instead of complaining about those that
>  John> remind you to?
> 
> You mean, just go in and close all bugs? Surely you do not
>  mean that? Or are you trying to be insulting? You think if the bugs
>  had easy solutiuons they would still be unfixed? If you indeed do
>  think all the old bugs are trivial to fix, please send in patches/do
>  NMU's fixing them.

I mean, fix bugs.  Then they can be closed.  I am aware that not all
bugs have easy solutions, but just because the solution isn't easy
doesn't mean that it is any less important to fix it.

> 
> manoj
> -- 
>  If at first you don't succeed, quit; don't be a nut about success.
> Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

-- 
John Goerzen   Linux, Unix consulting & programming   [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Developer, Debian GNU/Linux (Free powerful OS upgrade)   www.debian.org |
+
Remote from the Debian booth at Linux Expo

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Joseph Carter]

On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 08:34:16PM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> > Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no special
> > privilege to send mails like this.
> 
> What special priviledge is necessary?  The very fact that the bug has
> been open for that long I think entitles anyone to send them out.

Considering that nobody getting them is unaware of the status of their
bugs first, and that the same people also say that even if they were not
the message is not generally helpful.

Someone wishing to have a reminder of bug status may choose to subscribe
to a report.

Closing bugs just because you can't fix them is wrong.

--
Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Debian GNU/Linux developer
PGP: E8D68481E3A8BB77 8EE22996C9445FBEThe Source Comes First!
-
* lilo hereby declares OPN a virtual pain in the ass :)


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Re: request to kill nag messages

[Dale Scheetz]

On 21 May 1999, John Goerzen wrote:

> Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
> > twice a week to every developer. 
> 
> I don't get such a report.

Probably because you are not subscribed to the bug-report mailing list ;-)

You have the choice to either recieve bug report synopsis this way, or not
by whether you choose to subscribe, or not.

The nag messages are specifically designed so that individual developers
may _not_ request they not recieve such mail.

If you can't see the principle involved in the difference between these
two approaches, then I regret I will never be able to convince you there
is, indeed, a difference.

> 
> > If this was simply a report to the list, once in a while, like the
> > "critical bugs that need to be fixed" list, there would be no problem.
> > Instead this mail is generated automatically and sent to every developer
> > with an open bug report over a certain age.
> 
> Why does this mean it's a problem?

Because there is no mechanism (aside from closing the bug report) for
stopping such messages, if you find them offensive, useless, and obnoxious
clutter! I am being imposed upon, by someone who is supposed to be a
"fellow developer", in a way that I find totally unhelpful. When this,
supposidly competent programmer tells me he can not impliment an exception
list for these mails, I must wonder why I am being treated like a child
with a dirty room.

There is a significant difference between a "reasoned" list of "critical
release bugs" and the arbitrary "age" mechanism of the nag system. There
are many _good_ reasons to leave a bug report open for an indefinite
period of time. There is nothing inately evil about an open bug report.
The nag message implies that exactly the opposite is the case.

> 
> > This is not a "person" asking a developer to fix a bug. This is an
> > automated system that spits out messages with NO content of use to the
> > developer, and adds nothing but bulk to the already functional system.
> 
> The person already asked for a fix, and generally deserves a timely
> fix.  Why not close the bugs instead of complaining about those that
> remind you to?

Many bug reports ask for different behaviour without reguard for the
larger issues involved. My experience is that closing such bugs is not a
solution that is usually acceptable to the reporter.

The person may ask for a fix, but provide no solution. The obvious
solutions may be undesirable. A reasonable solution may not exist, or may
require the modification of other packages before it can be implimented.
The list of reasons not to close a bug are long, but boil down to one
simple fact. You don't close a bug report until the bug is fixed, and
time is not the sole criterion for "fixability".  To be reminded of
something you already know about is, at best, redundant.

Luck,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

_-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"John" == John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 John> Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 >> No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
 >> twice a week to every developer. 

 John> I don't get such a report.

Because, unlike the nag reports, the bi-weekly reports (by
 date and by maintainer) are optional; you may choose to subscribe top
 the mailinglist.

 John> The person already asked for a fix, and generally deserves a timely
 John> fix.  Why not close the bugs instead of complaining about those that
 John> remind you to?

You mean, just go in and close all bugs? Surely you do not
 mean that? Or are you trying to be insulting? You think if the bugs
 had easy solutiuons they would still be unfixed? If you indeed do
 think all the old bugs are trivial to fix, please send in patches/do
 NMU's fixing them.

manoj
-- 
 If at first you don't succeed, quit; don't be a nut about success.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,
>>"John" == John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 John> Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 >> Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no special
 >> privilege to send mails like this.

 John> What special priviledge is necessary?  The very fact that the bug has
 John> been open for that long I think entitles anyone to send them out.

Quite correct. No priviledge is required for sending Make
 $ fast messages either. But unsolicited messages that serve no
 useful purpose tend to get responses. Like complaints to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 and to ISP's or employers. 

Are we at the point where one needs to resort to that to get
 spam turned off?

manoj
-- 
 You will triumph over your enemy.
Manoj Srivastava   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Adrian Bridgett]

On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 08:33:33PM -0500, John Goerzen wrote:
> Why don't you close the bugs?

I need a time machine :-)

Too many projects on, and I'm afraid that recently my Debian commitments
have suffered at the hands of other projects.

Adrian

email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.poboxes.com/adrian.bridgett
Windows NT - Unix in beta-testing.   PGP key available on public key servers
Avoid tiresome goat sacrifices  -=-  use Debian Linux http://www.debian.org

Re: request to kill nag messages

[John Goerzen]

Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no special
> privilege to send mails like this.

What special priviledge is necessary?  The very fact that the bug has
been open for that long I think entitles anyone to send them out.

> 
> This is no different from some "helpful" developer spamming people who,
> say, have had bugs open for over a year.  Such people have (rightly) come
> under fire in the past.
> 
> It's time to do away with grandfather clauses.
> 
> --=20
> G. Branden Robinson  |   I must despise the world which does not
> Debian GNU/Linux |   know that music is a higher revelation
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |   than all wisdom and philosophy.
> cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu/~branden/ |   -- Ludwig van Beethoven
> 
> --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87
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> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

-- 
John Goerzen   Linux, Unix consulting & programming   [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Developer, Debian GNU/Linux (Free powerful OS upgrade)   www.debian.org |
+
Remote from the Debian booth at Linux Expo

Re: request to kill nag messages

[John Goerzen]

Why don't you close the bugs?

Adrian Bridgett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent out.
> Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find out bugs
> you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important than
> recent bugs too.
> 
> (or do we need a vote or something)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Adrian
> 
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.poboxes.com/adrian.bridgett
> Windows NT - Unix in beta-testing.   PGP key available on public key servers
> Avoid tiresome goat sacrifices  -=-  use Debian Linux http://www.debian.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

-- 
John Goerzen   Linux, Unix consulting & programming   [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Developer, Debian GNU/Linux (Free powerful OS upgrade)   www.debian.org |
+
Remote from the Debian booth at Linux Expo

Re: request to kill nag messages

[John Goerzen]

Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
> twice a week to every developer. 

I don't get such a report.

> If this was simply a report to the list, once in a while, like the
> "critical bugs that need to be fixed" list, there would be no problem.
> Instead this mail is generated automatically and sent to every developer
> with an open bug report over a certain age.

Why does this mean it's a problem?

> This is not a "person" asking a developer to fix a bug. This is an
> automated system that spits out messages with NO content of use to the
> developer, and adds nothing but bulk to the already functional system.

The person already asked for a fix, and generally deserves a timely
fix.  Why not close the bugs instead of complaining about those that
remind you to?

-- 
John Goerzen   Linux, Unix consulting & programming   [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Developer, Debian GNU/Linux (Free powerful OS upgrade)   www.debian.org |
+
Remote from the Debian booth at Linux Expo

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Dale Scheetz]

On Thu, 20 May 1999, Joel Klecker wrote:

> At 18:10 +0100 1999-05-20, Adrian Bridgett wrote:
> >On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 06:47:28AM -0400, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> >>
> >>   Brian> Nag also sends emails regarding old bugs on your packages.  I 
> >> never
> >>   Brian> subscribed to that.  :p
> >>
> >> All I'm saying: Everybody is free to procmail away whatever they don't 
> >> like.
> >
> >This sounds like a good idea - send the Nag reports to the email address
> >@debian.org (which hopefully everyone has).  Then if some kind soul could
> >tell us what lines to add where to filter it everyone will be happy.
> 
> Don't presume to speak for everyone.
> 
> I would not be happy with that.
> 
> I will only say that "just filter it out" or "just press the delete 
> key" are spammers' answers.
> 
> I am well aware of my bugs, and I DO NOT need reminders of them.
> 
> One last thing, the next nag message I get will be treated as spam.

One way to deal with this is to just mark all your bugs as wish list. The
nags don't react to wish list bugs ;-)

Luck,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

_-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Joel Klecker]

At 18:10 +0100 1999-05-20, Adrian Bridgett wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 06:47:28AM -0400, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
  Brian> Nag also sends emails regarding old bugs on your packages.  I never
  Brian> subscribed to that.  :p
All I'm saying: Everybody is free to procmail away whatever they don't like.
This sounds like a good idea - send the Nag reports to the email address
@debian.org (which hopefully everyone has).  Then if some kind soul could
tell us what lines to add where to filter it everyone will be happy.
Don't presume to speak for everyone.
I would not be happy with that.
I will only say that "just filter it out" or "just press the delete 
key" are spammers' answers.

I am well aware of my bugs, and I DO NOT need reminders of them.
One last thing, the next nag message I get will be treated as spam.
--
Joel Klecker (aka Espy)Debian GNU/Linux Developer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://web.espy.org/>   http://www.debian.org/>

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Adrian Bridgett]

On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 06:47:28AM -0400, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> 
>   Brian> Nag also sends emails regarding old bugs on your packages.  I never
>   Brian> subscribed to that.  :p
> 
> All I'm saying: Everybody is free to procmail away whatever they don't like.

This sounds like a good idea - send the Nag reports to the email address
@debian.org (which hopefully everyone has).  Then if some kind soul could
tell us what lines to add where to filter it everyone will be happy.

Cheers

Adrian

email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.poboxes.com/adrian.bridgett
Windows NT - Unix in beta-testing.   PGP key available on public key servers
Avoid tiresome goat sacrifices  -=-  use Debian Linux http://www.debian.org

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Kurz]

Christian Meder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 11:48:25AM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> > Christian Meder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Example: I've got an open old bug report that flying
> > > (a X11 pool game) doesn't support 16/24 bit displays. The upstream
> > 
> > This would speak for making the mechanismen configurable. Would this be
> > a solution?

> Making which mechanism configurable ? The bug system ? The nag messages ?
> Could you expand what you are aiming at ?

I meant the nag-messages about which we are talking here. Would be a
solution to make it configurable if you want to get those or not? 

Cheers
   Christian
-- 

* Christian Kurz  Debian Developer *
* Use Debian - a free Operating System for your PC *

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Meder]

On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 11:48:25AM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> Christian Meder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Example: I've got an open old bug report that flying
> > (a X11 pool game) doesn't support 16/24 bit displays. The upstream
> 
> This would speak for making the mechanismen configurable. Would this be
> a solution?

Making which mechanism configurable ? The bug system ? The nag messages ?
Could you expand what you are aiming at ?

Greetings,



Christian
-- 
Christian Meder, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
What's the railroad to me ?
I never go to see
Where it ends.
It fills a few hollows,
And makes banks for the swallows, 
It sets the sand a-blowing,
And the blackberries a-growing.
  (Henry David Thoreau)
 

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

  Brian> Nag also sends emails regarding old bugs on your packages.  I never
  Brian> subscribed to that.  :p

All I'm saying: Everybody is free to procmail away whatever they don't like.

-- 
According to the latest figures, 43% of all statistics are totally worthless.

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Kurz]

Christian Meder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 09:24:19PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> > Well what is the problem with this? I don't see any offence in getting a
> > message that says that I (the maintainer) has still open bug over a
> > certain age. I think this is a good reminder for the maintainers as you
> > may forget to fix bugs. Take a look at the ppp-package and how many open
> > bugs there have been. The maintainer hadn't fixed them and so I helped
> > him. (Sorry Phil, but this is a good example and No, I don't want to
> > praise me with this). Or have you taken a look at the list on
> > http://master.debian.org/~ajt/bugsbyage.txt? Have you seen how many open
> > old bugs we got? How do you think we get this fixed without reminding
> > the developers of their open bugs?

> I think you miss the point. Nobody's arguing that we shouldn't keep a
> public list of open old bugs. For interested developers it makes
> sense to do some qa after checking such a list.

ACK

> The point is that the diligent maintainer is well aware of his/her
> open old bug reports and usually has some valid reasons to leave the
> bug report open. 

Then why doesn't he place a message in the BTS saying why it isn't
possible to fix the bug? So that people lookin throught the BTS see, if
they can help to fix the bug or if this isn't possible?

> Example: I've got an open old bug report that flying
> (a X11 pool game) doesn't support 16/24 bit displays. The upstream

This would speak for making the mechanismen configurable. Would this be
a solution?

Cheers
   Christian
-- 

* Christian Kurz  Debian Developer *
* Use Debian - a free Operating System for your PC *

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Kurz]

[DONT SEND ME A CC!]

Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christian Kurz wrote:

> > [You don't need to send me an extra Cc as I read the lists on which I
> > write. Thanks!]
> > 
> > Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christian Kurz wrote:
> > 
> > > > Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:32:20PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are 
> > > > > > > sent out.
> > > > > > > Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find 
> > > > > > > out bugs
> > > > > > > you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less 
> > > > > > > important than
> > > > > > > recent bugs too.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I would rather see the old bugs closed.  An old bug is still a bug.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Don't like the messages, help close the bugs.
> > > > 
> > > > > Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no 
> > > > > special
> > > > > privilege to send mails like this.
> > > > 
> > > > Oh, does somebody need a special privilege to tell us which general bugs
> > > > are too old and need to be resolved? I don't think so.
> > 
> > > No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
> > > twice a week to every developer. 
> > 
> > Are you sure? I don't know that this is done by the BTS and have never
> > heard about this? 

> Here is a sample of the beggining of what I normally get on Tuesdays:

> -begin paste-
> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:29:46 -0500
> From: Debian Bug Tracking System <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Unanswered problem reports by maintainer and package
> Resent-Date: 4 May 1999 21:30:06 -
> Resent-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ;

> The following problem reports have not yet been marked as `taken up' by a
> message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or or `forwarded' by a
> message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ---end paste--

> Note that this is a subscription list, so you must request placement on
> this "automated" report generator.

Hm, this looks for me like you use a cronjob to fetch your bugreports.
Or where is this described?

> On Friday the report is ordered differently, and can be grepped for your
> name to separate out your own bugs from all the rest.

Hm, sound interesting.

> You can also request limited reports on your own. Send the word help in
> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will get a list
> of all the commands that the request server responds to. Among them are
> requests for indexes by package, or by maintainer. You can then take these
> indexes and request the actual bug report itself.

Oh so you need to set this up on your own? There's only one point which
I'm missing: How many maintainers use this? Is this used by nearly every
maintainer or only some? I think we need a mechanismen, which is
configurable, which automatically tells you after some time which bugs
are open and need to be closed. So you are automatically subsribed to
these messages, but you can stop it if you want.
 
> > > If this was simply a report to the list, once in a while, like the
> > > "critical bugs that need to be fixed" list, there would be no problem.
> > > Instead this mail is generated automatically and sent to every developer
> > > with an open bug report over a certain age.
> > 
> > Well what is the problem with this? I don't see any offence in getting a
> > message that says that I (the maintainer) has still open bug over a
> > certain age. I think this is a good reminder for the maintainers as you

> The problem is that I can not request that the messages stop, like I can
> with this list, and the other BTS lists. Even aggressive, and angry
> requests have met with rejection. This is, by definition, unwanted spam.

So why don't we contact Brian and ask him about making this
configurable? Has anyone contacted him yet about this? If not, I will
write him a mail at the weekend.

> > may forget to fix bugs. Take a look at the ppp-package and how many open
> > bugs there have been. The maintainer hadn't fixed them and so I helped
> > him. (Sorry Phil, but this is a good example and No, I don't want to
> > praise me with this). Or have you taken a look at the list on
> > http://master.debian.org/~ajt/bugsbyage.txt? Have you seen how many open
> > old bugs we got? How do you think we get this fixed without reminding
> > the developers of their open bugs?

> How do the nag messages to Phil help you know which of his bugs are in
> need of repair.

I meant that this messages are good for a maintainer who had so many
open bugs to see which bugs he need to fix and maybe ask others to help
him. It was not about me.

> Your idea that mainainers "forget" to fix a bug is simply FUD. Nobody
> forge

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Brian Almeida]

On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 10:26:11PM -0400, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> You are subscribed to a mailing list debian-devel, aren't you?
Nag also sends emails regarding old bugs on your packages.  I never
subscribed to that.  :p

-- 
Brian Almeida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
Debian Linux Developer - http://www.debian.org
finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for GPG/PGP public keys
Scotty is smoking the dilithium crystals again, Jim 

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Joel Klecker]

At 22:26 -0400 1999-05-19, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
 Brian> I don't NEED a reminder about my bugs. There should be an option to
 Brian> TURN THE BLOODY THING OFF.
 Dirk> Subscribe with your @debian.org address so that you procmail it out
 Dirk> on master.
 Joel> Wtf do you mean subscribe? None of us signed up for the fucking
 Joel> thing!
You are subscribed to a mailing list debian-devel, aren't you?
And that has what to do with nag?
--
Joel Klecker (aka Espy)Debian GNU/Linux Developer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://web.espy.org/>   http://www.debian.org/>

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

  Brian> I don't NEED a reminder about my bugs. There should be an option to
  Brian> TURN THE BLOODY THING OFF.

  Dirk> Subscribe with your @debian.org address so that you procmail it out
  Dirk> on master.  

  Joel> Wtf do you mean subscribe? None of us signed up for the fucking
  Joel> thing!  

You are subscribed to a mailing list debian-devel, aren't you?

-- 
According to the latest figures, 43% of all statistics are totally worthless.

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Joel Klecker]

At 21:28 -0400 1999-05-19, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
 Brian> I don't NEED a reminder about my bugs. There should be an option to
 Brian> TURN THE BLOODY THING OFF.
Subscribe with your @debian.org address so that you procmail it out on master.
Wtf do you mean subscribe? None of us signed up for the fucking thing!
--
Joel Klecker (aka Espy)Debian GNU/Linux Developer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://web.espy.org/>   http://www.debian.org/>

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

  Brian> I don't NEED a reminder about my bugs. There should be an option to
  Brian> TURN THE BLOODY THING OFF.

Subscribe with your @debian.org address so that you procmail it out on master.

-- 
According to the latest figures, 43% of all statistics are totally worthless.

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Branden Robinson]

On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 03:35:46PM -0400, Brian Almeida wrote:
> Ah, I see.  I thought I recalled you saying something on a list that having 
> something
> added to the BTS would make your job easier...I stand corrected.

Oh, I'm sure there are.  But Brian's nag mails seem to be utterly
orthogonal to that.

-- 
G. Branden Robinson  |Yesterday upon the stair,
Debian GNU/Linux |I met a man who wasn't there.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |He wasn't there again today,
cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu/~branden/ |I think he's from the CIA.


pgpEJdFLe4XjV.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Kurz]

Brian Almeida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 09:28:33PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> > So where's the problem with getting an reminder about your old open
> > bugs, which you need to fix? 
> I don't NEED a reminder about my bugs. There should be an option to TURN THE 
> BLOODY
> THING OFF.

OK, this would be a good point. Making it configurable if you want to
get those messages or not. But in general I don't think that should be
turned off.

Cheers
   Christian
-- 

* Christian Kurz  Debian Developer *
* Use Debian - a free Operating System for your PC *

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Meder]

On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 09:24:19PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> Well what is the problem with this? I don't see any offence in getting a
> message that says that I (the maintainer) has still open bug over a
> certain age. I think this is a good reminder for the maintainers as you
> may forget to fix bugs. Take a look at the ppp-package and how many open
> bugs there have been. The maintainer hadn't fixed them and so I helped
> him. (Sorry Phil, but this is a good example and No, I don't want to
> praise me with this). Or have you taken a look at the list on
> http://master.debian.org/~ajt/bugsbyage.txt? Have you seen how many open
> old bugs we got? How do you think we get this fixed without reminding
> the developers of their open bugs?

I think you miss the point. Nobody's arguing that we shouldn't keep a
public list of open old bugs. For interested developers it makes
sense to do some qa after checking such a list.

The point is that the diligent maintainer is well aware of his/her
open old bug reports and usually has some valid reasons to leave the
bug report open. Example: I've got an open old bug report that flying
(a X11 pool game) doesn't support 16/24 bit displays. The upstream
maintainer doesn't work on flying anymore and I don't have the
expertise to add the feature. So I'm well aware of the bug but there's
no easy way out (anybody feels like hacking Xlib code ?). For sure
there's _no_ need to remind me of this bug every month or so.

Greetings,




Christian
-- 
Christian Meder, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

What's the railroad to me ?
I never go to see
Where it ends.
It fills a few hollows,
And makes banks for the swallows, 
It sets the sand a-blowing,
And the blackberries a-growing.
  (Henry David Thoreau)

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Dale Scheetz]

On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christian Kurz wrote:

> [You don't need to send me an extra Cc as I read the lists on which I
> write. Thanks!]
> 
> Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christian Kurz wrote:
> 
> > > Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:32:20PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are 
> > > > > > sent out.
> > > > > > Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find 
> > > > > > out bugs
> > > > > > you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important 
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > recent bugs too.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I would rather see the old bugs closed.  An old bug is still a bug.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Don't like the messages, help close the bugs.
> > > 
> > > > Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no 
> > > > special
> > > > privilege to send mails like this.
> > > 
> > > Oh, does somebody need a special privilege to tell us which general bugs
> > > are too old and need to be resolved? I don't think so.
> 
> > No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
> > twice a week to every developer. 
> 
> Are you sure? I don't know that this is done by the BTS and have never
> heard about this? 

Here is a sample of the beggining of what I normally get on Tuesdays:

-begin paste-
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:29:46 -0500
From: Debian Bug Tracking System <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Unanswered problem reports by maintainer and package
Resent-Date: 4 May 1999 21:30:06 -
Resent-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ;

The following problem reports have not yet been marked as `taken up' by a
message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or or `forwarded' by a
message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---end paste--

Note that this is a subscription list, so you must request placement on
this "automated" report generator.

On Friday the report is ordered differently, and can be grepped for your
name to separate out your own bugs from all the rest.

You can also request limited reports on your own. Send the word help in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will get a list
of all the commands that the request server responds to. Among them are
requests for indexes by package, or by maintainer. You can then take these
indexes and request the actual bug report itself.


> 
> > If this was simply a report to the list, once in a while, like the
> > "critical bugs that need to be fixed" list, there would be no problem.
> > Instead this mail is generated automatically and sent to every developer
> > with an open bug report over a certain age.
> 
> Well what is the problem with this? I don't see any offence in getting a
> message that says that I (the maintainer) has still open bug over a
> certain age. I think this is a good reminder for the maintainers as you

The problem is that I can not request that the messages stop, like I can
with this list, and the other BTS lists. Even aggressive, and angry
requests have met with rejection. This is, by definition, unwanted spam.

> may forget to fix bugs. Take a look at the ppp-package and how many open
> bugs there have been. The maintainer hadn't fixed them and so I helped
> him. (Sorry Phil, but this is a good example and No, I don't want to
> praise me with this). Or have you taken a look at the list on
> http://master.debian.org/~ajt/bugsbyage.txt? Have you seen how many open
> old bugs we got? How do you think we get this fixed without reminding
> the developers of their open bugs?

How do the nag messages to Phil help you know which of his bugs are in
need of repair.

Your idea that mainainers "forget" to fix a bug is simply FUD. Nobody
forgets a bug, they either don't have the time to figure out what is
wrong, or for what ever reason cannot put the manpower into solving the
problem. Under these conditions a NMU is very reasonable. I never turn
down such help, but what does this have to do with the nags?

You seem to have missed the point that, although some of the nags only go
to a mailing list, each maintainer also recieves his very own copy of the
nags for his packages. Until I complained loudly to Brian about not being
able to control the flood, he reduced these messages to only one per
maintainer. Previous to this, there was one message for each outstanding
bu you had in the system. When I was maintaining glibc this amounted to
hundreds of messages cluttering up my inbox. While reducing the number of
messages takes the "cost" load off of the maintainer, the fact that they
can not be stopped all together makes them nothing but spam.

> 
> > > > This is no different from some "helpful" developer spamming people who,
> > > > say, have had bugs open for over a year.  Such people have (rightly) 

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Brian Almeida]

On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 09:28:33PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> So where's the problem with getting an reminder about your old open
> bugs, which you need to fix? 
I don't NEED a reminder about my bugs. There should be an option to TURN THE 
BLOODY
THING OFF.

-- 
Brian Almeida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  -  Systems Administrator
CICAT Networks - The New Brand of Telecommunications Service
Web: http://www.cicat.com/   V: 703-383-1408
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   F: 703-385-3788
Whip me.  Beat me.  Make me maintain AIX.

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Brian Almeida]

On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 03:28:16PM -0400, Branden Robinson wrote:
> I'd like to correct you on this point.
> 
> I can and do periodically go through the massive list of ancient bugs
> against X.  It's just too much for me to handle.  In many cases there is
> too little information in the bug report for me to reproduce it (or in the
> case of server bugs, I don't have the hardware to reproduce it).
> 
> And in many cases they're simply upstream bugs that haven't been fixed yet.
Ah, I see.  I thought I recalled you saying something on a list that having 
something
added to the BTS would make your job easier...I stand corrected.

> I am doing my best with the X bug list, and I am well aware of its size and
> the age of some of the bugs on it.
> 
> I do *NOT* need a reminder.  There is no way I will ever forget.
I'd like to think the same of most maintainers out there.  Often times if 
there's
an old bug, it's either because it's fixed and forgotten to be closed,
unreproducable, or the package/maintainer author feel it not to be a bug - but
leave it open so it won't get reported over and over.

-- 
Brian Almeida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  -  Systems Administrator
CICAT Networks - The New Brand of Telecommunications Service
Web: http://www.cicat.com/   V: 703-383-1408
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   F: 703-385-3788
Linux renders ships, NT is rendering ships useless.

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Kurz]

Brian Almeida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 04:45:11PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> > And what do you propose should be done with bugs that are so old? Still
> > let them stay open and look somewhere else? No, that isn't a solution.
> > The solution is to contact the developer and ask them about the bugs and
> > try to track the problem down and fix the bug. This has nothing do to
> > with spamming instead these are person, which are interested in
> > improving th quality of the distribution.

> Considering the X bug list, I'm sure branden got a quite large mailing
> from 'Nag' about old bugs - yet from what I understand, he can't
> possibly go through that list until some modifications are done to the
> BTS.

Hm, in the list from NAG are the URLs which lead to the page with the
bugreport on it. So what modifications need to be done for making these
messages usable?

> 'Nag' also goes to developers personally, not only to -devel.

So where's the problem with getting an reminder about your old open
bugs, which you need to fix? 

Cheers
   Christian
-- 

* Christian Kurz  Debian Developer *
* Use Debian - a free Operating System for your PC *

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Kurz]

[You don't need to send me an extra Cc as I read the lists on which I
write. Thanks!]

Dale Scheetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christian Kurz wrote:

> > Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:32:20PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent 
> > > > > out.
> > > > > Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find out 
> > > > > bugs
> > > > > you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important 
> > > > > than
> > > > > recent bugs too.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I would rather see the old bugs closed.  An old bug is still a bug.
> > > > 
> > > > Don't like the messages, help close the bugs.
> > 
> > > Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no special
> > > privilege to send mails like this.
> > 
> > Oh, does somebody need a special privilege to tell us which general bugs
> > are too old and need to be resolved? I don't think so.

> No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
> twice a week to every developer. 

Are you sure? I don't know that this is done by the BTS and have never
heard about this? 

> If this was simply a report to the list, once in a while, like the
> "critical bugs that need to be fixed" list, there would be no problem.
> Instead this mail is generated automatically and sent to every developer
> with an open bug report over a certain age.

Well what is the problem with this? I don't see any offence in getting a
message that says that I (the maintainer) has still open bug over a
certain age. I think this is a good reminder for the maintainers as you
may forget to fix bugs. Take a look at the ppp-package and how many open
bugs there have been. The maintainer hadn't fixed them and so I helped
him. (Sorry Phil, but this is a good example and No, I don't want to
praise me with this). Or have you taken a look at the list on
http://master.debian.org/~ajt/bugsbyage.txt? Have you seen how many open
old bugs we got? How do you think we get this fixed without reminding
the developers of their open bugs?

> > > This is no different from some "helpful" developer spamming people who,
> > > say, have had bugs open for over a year.  Such people have (rightly) come
> > > under fire in the past.
> > 
> > And what do you propose should be done with bugs that are so old? Still
> > let them stay open and look somewhere else? No, that isn't a solution.
> > The solution is to contact the developer and ask them about the bugs and
> > try to track the problem down and fix the bug. This has nothing do to
> > with spamming instead these are person, which are interested in
> > improving th quality of the distribution.
> > 
> This is not a "person" asking a developer to fix a bug. This is an
> automated system that spits out messages with NO content of use to the
> developer, and adds nothing but bulk to the already functional system.

Where has the message no content? It tells you which bugs are very old
and haven't been fixed, so you can take a look at them and fix them. And
the point that this is an automated system doing this is IMHO no cause
to treat them like spam. It's has been automated as a normal person
can't to this on her own.

> This _is_ spam, and nothing more. Please be aware that any message with
> the word "Nag" in the subject is always deleted and never read when sent
> to me, so if you really want to contact me don't use that word ;-)

Well, that's you problem, but better would be a kill on the From-Line
instead of the Subject.

> You aren't really suggesting that any "well meaning" person is correct to
> set up an automated system for notifying developers about  important issue here>, then you should not complain when some dodo sends
> you, and the list, critical information about how to get rich quick. He is
> only trying to be informative...

Well, I don't like spam as it has nothing to do with my work or my
hobby. But these messages are there for informing me, that I have open
bugs and that I need to fix them. So it's a reminder for me as
developer. Or how should we remind developer of their old bugs? Go by
hand through the BTS and sort them out? Are you sure that every
developer knows which open bugs he has and how old they are? I'm not and
since the messages are not send every day or every week or every month
but instead after a certain amount of time, more than 4 months, I don't
treat them like spam.

Cheers
   Christian
-- 

* Christian Kurz  Debian Developer *
* Use Debian - a free Operating System for your PC *

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Branden Robinson]

On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 11:08:02AM -0400, Brian Almeida wrote:
> Considering the X bug list, I'm sure branden got a quite large mailing from 
> 'Nag'
> about old bugs - yet from what I understand, he can't possibly go through 
> that list
> until some modifications are done to the BTS.  'Nag' also goes to developers 
> personally, not only to -devel.

I'd like to correct you on this point.

I can and do periodically go through the massive list of ancient bugs
against X.  It's just too much for me to handle.  In many cases there is
too little information in the bug report for me to reproduce it (or in the
case of server bugs, I don't have the hardware to reproduce it).

And in many cases they're simply upstream bugs that haven't been fixed yet.

I am doing my best with the X bug list, and I am well aware of its size and
the age of some of the bugs on it.

I do *NOT* need a reminder.  There is no way I will ever forget.

-- 
G. Branden Robinson  |   You can have my PGP passphrase when you
Debian GNU/Linux |   pry it from my cold, dead brain.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |   -- Adam Thornton
cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu/~branden/ |


pgpzOpZmTsldO.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Josip Rodin]

On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 12:35:27PM -0400, Dale Scheetz wrote:
> No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
> twice a week to every developer. 

It does? It sure didn't send that anything like that to me...

-- 
enJoy -*/\*- http://jagor.srce.hr/~jrodin/

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Dale Scheetz]

On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christian Kurz wrote:

> Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:32:20PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent 
> > > > out.
> > > > Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find out 
> > > > bugs
> > > > you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important than
> > > > recent bugs too.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I would rather see the old bugs closed.  An old bug is still a bug.
> > > 
> > > Don't like the messages, help close the bugs.
> 
> > Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no special
> > privilege to send mails like this.
> 
> Oh, does somebody need a special privilege to tell us which general bugs
> are too old and need to be resolved? I don't think so.

No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
twice a week to every developer. 

If this was simply a report to the list, once in a while, like the
"critical bugs that need to be fixed" list, there would be no problem.
Instead this mail is generated automatically and sent to every developer
with an open bug report over a certain age.


> 
> > This is no different from some "helpful" developer spamming people who,
> > say, have had bugs open for over a year.  Such people have (rightly) come
> > under fire in the past.
> 
> And what do you propose should be done with bugs that are so old? Still
> let them stay open and look somewhere else? No, that isn't a solution.
> The solution is to contact the developer and ask them about the bugs and
> try to track the problem down and fix the bug. This has nothing do to
> with spamming instead these are person, which are interested in
> improving th quality of the distribution.
> 
This is not a "person" asking a developer to fix a bug. This is an
automated system that spits out messages with NO content of use to the
developer, and adds nothing but bulk to the already functional system.

This _is_ spam, and nothing more. Please be aware that any message with
the word "Nag" in the subject is always deleted and never read when sent
to me, so if you really want to contact me don't use that word ;-)

You aren't really suggesting that any "well meaning" person is correct to
set up an automated system for notifying developers about , then you should not complain when some dodo sends
you, and the list, critical information about how to get rich quick. He is
only trying to be informative...

Luck,

Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide"  _-_-_-_-_-_-

aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769
  Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road
  e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308

_-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Brian Almeida]

On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 04:45:11PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> And what do you propose should be done with bugs that are so old? Still
> let them stay open and look somewhere else? No, that isn't a solution.
> The solution is to contact the developer and ask them about the bugs and
> try to track the problem down and fix the bug. This has nothing do to
> with spamming instead these are person, which are interested in
> improving th quality of the distribution.
Considering the X bug list, I'm sure branden got a quite large mailing from 
'Nag'
about old bugs - yet from what I understand, he can't possibly go through that 
list
until some modifications are done to the BTS.  'Nag' also goes to developers 
personally, not only to -devel.

-- 
Brian Almeida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  -  Systems Administrator
CICAT Networks - The New Brand of Telecommunications Service
Web: http://www.cicat.com/   V: 703-383-1408
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   F: 703-385-3788
My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.  

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Kurz]

Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:32:20PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > > I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent out.
> > > Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find out bugs
> > > you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important than
> > > recent bugs too.
> > > 
> > 
> > I would rather see the old bugs closed.  An old bug is still a bug.
> > 
> > Don't like the messages, help close the bugs.

> Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no special
> privilege to send mails like this.

Oh, does somebody need a special privilege to tell us which general bugs
are too old and need to be resolved? I don't think so.

> This is no different from some "helpful" developer spamming people who,
> say, have had bugs open for over a year.  Such people have (rightly) come
> under fire in the past.

And what do you propose should be done with bugs that are so old? Still
let them stay open and look somewhere else? No, that isn't a solution.
The solution is to contact the developer and ask them about the bugs and
try to track the problem down and fix the bug. This has nothing do to
with spamming instead these are person, which are interested in
improving th quality of the distribution.

Cheers
   Christian
-- 

* Christian Kurz  Debian Developer *
* Use Debian - a free Operating System for your PC *

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Christian Kurz]

Adrian Bridgett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent out.
> Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find out bugs
> you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important than
> recent bugs too.

No, these bugs are also important and need to be resolved as every bug.
The decision which bugs are important does not depend on the age. And
the nag-messages to this list has come, as the bugs are general bugs and
there's no developer for them. Every developer can fix those bugs and so
it's a good to sent this message to the list.

Cheers
   Christian
-- 

* Christian Kurz  Debian Developer *
* Use Debian - a free Operating System for your PC *

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Branden Robinson]

On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:32:20PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent out.
> > Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find out bugs
> > you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important than
> > recent bugs too.
> > 
> 
> I would rather see the old bugs closed.  An old bug is still a bug.
> 
> Don't like the messages, help close the bugs.

Wrong.  Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no special
privilege to send mails like this.

This is no different from some "helpful" developer spamming people who,
say, have had bugs open for over a year.  Such people have (rightly) come
under fire in the past.

It's time to do away with grandfather clauses.

-- 
G. Branden Robinson  |   I must despise the world which does not
Debian GNU/Linux |   know that music is a higher revelation
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |   than all wisdom and philosophy.
cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu/~branden/ |   -- Ludwig van Beethoven


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Description: PGP signature

Re: request to kill nag messages

[Joel Klecker]

At 19:59 +0100 1999-05-18, Adrian Bridgett wrote:
I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent out.
Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find out bugs
you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important than
recent bugs too.
To me, these messages put bcwhite slightly above a spammer.
Then again, a spammer at least pretends to accept "remove" messages.
I did not sign up for this crap, I get no benefit from it, and it is annoying.
I want it to stop.
If we do not come to some agreement on either allowing developers to 
not be nagged or killing nag altogether, I will begin to treat it as 
spam.
--
Joel Klecker (aka Espy)Debian GNU/Linux Developer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://web.espy.org/>   http://www.debian.org/>

Re: request to kill nag messages

[shaleh]

> 
> I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent out.
> Can the script please be disabled.  There are better ways to find out bugs
> you have open.  Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important than
> recent bugs too.
> 

I would rather see the old bugs closed.  An old bug is still a bug.

Don't like the messages, help close the bugs.