Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 02:16:05AM +0100, Peter 'p2' De Schrijver wrote: Considering that modern machines can boot from network or USB stick, some machine classes lack optical drives (small laptops, many non ia32/amd64/ppc machines), DVD readers are uncommon outside the ia32/amd64/ppc world, optical media are slow compared to network or USB sticks, I would say the importance of optical media images is low. It's cool to have CDs or DVDs to give away at fairs etc, but for practical use much better installation methods (network and USB stick) are available IMO. AIUI, USB sticks use the standard business card or netinst images, or a special pre-built image. So creating those for all architectures that can boot from USB is obviously important, especially for those people that don't want to destroy all the data on their USB sticks. -- brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US +1 713 440 7475 | http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc | My opinion only troff on top of XML: http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc/code/thwack OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
Hello Steve, Am 2008-03-16 23:59:52, schrieb Steve McIntyre: 1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want *everything*? CD's are maybe not usefull in this size... Maybe only the first 8. 2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the architectures? DVDs world be very helpful since not all peoples can build DVDs there own. 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good. V.34 and then Net-Install? Do you have already tried it? 4. ??? - what else would be a sane option? I have seen, that in the last month the ammount of games has increased. Why not put ALL the Games (last week I have seen a RFS for a Debian data package of 750 MByte ... UFFF) Suggestions/comments/complaints - please let us know what you'd prefer. Maybe Debian can provide 1) 50 MB Business card 2) 210MB Net-Install CD (including the base packages) 3) the first 5-8 CDs as they are 4) the 4 standard DVDs where the games are together on the LAST DVD. Personal Note: I find it annoying, that I have to download over 1 GByte (In Lenny they would be over 2 GByte) of Games if I want only an Office- and Devel-Workstation and some servers but I have the need for DVDs since I can not have everywhere an internet connection with 1 MBit or faster. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On 2008-03-16 23:59:52 (+), Steve McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ Please note Reply-To: to debian-cd... ] Hi folks, It's time for me to ask the question again - what CDs and DVDs will we find useful enough that we should make them for lenny? The reason I'm asking is that we're looking at a *huge* number of discs, and it's not clear that they'll all be useful. I've just finished building the full set for lenny d-i beta 1 (hence why I've been so quiet the last few days), and what we're looking at *now* is quite scary: 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst) ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB) Things are only going to get bigger: we're about to add armel to the mix, and I'm expecting that we're going to grow further yet in terms of the number and sizes of packages before we release lenny. That leaves us with a huge amount of data for us to build and host, and for our mirrors to handle too. So... 1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want *everything*? 2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the architectures? 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good. 4. ??? - what else would be a sane option? Considering that modern machines can boot from network or USB stick, some machine classes lack optical drives (small laptops, many non ia32/amd64/ppc machines), DVD readers are uncommon outside the ia32/amd64/ppc world, optical media are slow compared to network or USB sticks, I would say the importance of optical media images is low. It's cool to have CDs or DVDs to give away at fairs etc, but for practical use much better installation methods (network and USB stick) are available IMO. So in practice this means we can suffice with business card CD images for ia32/amd64/ppc and CDs (maybe DVDs) with the most important stuff. For other archs I see no use of having CD or DVD images. Cheers, Peter. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Wednesday 19 March 2008, Gunnar Wolf wrote: Anthony Towns dijo [Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 03:39:05PM +1000]: (...) and the real question is where you say if you really want the 23rd CD for mipsel, you're probably smart/dedicated enough to use jigdo. I completely agree with this. I don't think we must carry every CD for every arch forever! BTW... 30 CDs are too many CDs. Just too fucking many. We could also cut down on them - i.e. produce only the first 8 CDs per arch, and have the rest only as DVDs. Yes, many people still do not have DVD drives handy, but then again, 8 CDs + network access + a bit of patience for the most obscure bits of software should be enough for anybody... that assumes network access, which might be a reasonable assumption in the West, but that's not true everywhere (e.g. rural parts of India, Cuba, or most of Africa). In which case ordering a CD-set is way more practical (these also tend to be the places where they have older second hand pc's without a DVD-drive) The other thing we /could/ do is encourage people who've done successful Debian installs to help contribute by participating in a torrent after the fact -- you could do all sorts of things like have a FUSE filesystem that takes a (partial) mirror and a jigdo file and lets you see fake iso files, which you then seed via bittorrent, eg. You could automate that, so it's just a question like the popcon one: Do you wish to participate as a torrent seed for other people installing Debian? Yes [No] Ugh. Do you really want ISPs all over the world to start associating Debian with evil communist pirate P2P filesharers? er, you do realise torrent is used for way more then that right? (for example there's now a scandinavian telivision station that's starting to distribute shows through bittorrent, we also already have debtorrent) -- Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
BitTorrent and ISP interference (was: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?)
Gunnar Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) dijo [Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 09:28:03AM +0100]: er, you do realise torrent is used for way more then that right? I do know, and I do think the idea is a darn good one. Several ISPs, however, only see you are sharing via P2P - and might charge you extra or disconnect you. That is a problem that won't be solved by avoiding use of BitTorrent; on the contrary, reducing legitimate use of BitTorrent can only result in supporting those who would paint BitTorrent as a tool without significant legitimate use. Rather, we should put pressure on those ISPs that would discriminate againt BitTorrent traffic. This pressure will be aided by an *increase* in legitimate use of BitTorrent. Actual, ongoing legitimate use will have far more weight as a demonstration of the value of BitTorrent than theoretical discussion in the absence of significant legitimate use. -- \ First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for verbing | `\weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns and I speech | _o__)nothing, for I no verbs. -- Peter Ellis | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BitTorrent and ISP interference (was: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?)
Hi, On Thu, 2008-03-20 at 07:51 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: That is a problem that won't be solved by avoiding use of BitTorrent; on the contrary, reducing legitimate use of BitTorrent can only result in supporting those who would paint BitTorrent as a tool without significant legitimate use. This has nothing to do with legitimate or not legitmate use; this has to do with the fact that BitTorrent and swarm-based P2P networks in general overload many ISPs infrastructure since ISPs like to highly oversell their networks. Putting pressure on them will not do any good, and infact, someone who claims that it has to do with piracy will look like an idiot in 90% of cases where BitTorrent is blocked. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:13:05PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 03:14:51AM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote: If someone were to write a general library that did this, it would be trivial to wrap a apache handler around it that fed out iso images for the less popular architectures too. Does someone who knows more about iso9660 and torrents want to write this up for GSoC? The package jigit mentions iso-image.pl which is an apache cgi handler for serving an iso from a jigdo file on demand. Unfortunately due to a bug (which I just reported) the jigit package fails to include it even though it mentiones it in the package description and it is in the source package. Looks useful though. Oops... :-) It probably wouldn't be hard to make a torrent extension based on the example in the perl CGI handler. The problem with that version of jigit/mkimage/iso-image.pl is that jigdo template files are not designed to be easily seekable; i.e. if you want to read a lump of the ISO image from offset 567,632,024 then you need to create the ISO from offset 0 to that point. That'll make it less than ideal for torrent backends as far as I can see. The work I've done for jigdoofus (FUSE-based filesystem access) and mkimage v2 adds: * a simple database to cache the offset - file lookup data * (initial) support for just-in-time reading of files from remote mirrors but it still needs significant work to boost performance. I've been a little distracted lately, but I should get back to it... -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] You can't barbecue lettuce! -- Ellie Crane -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Blueray software, was: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/17/08 23:38, Anthony Towns wrote: On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 08:16:55AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 03/17/08 04:47, Philip Charles wrote: [snip] worrying about. Even then bluray disc(s) will take up about the same space as a CD set. 21GB on CD is 21GB on Bluray. Physical space isn't an issue for us. On the host, you must mean. Ok. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Working with women is a pain in the a**. My wife -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH33KvS9HxQb37XmcRAoyXAJ9z58lWv+tf3hCWiFWd9d/Ww8kAQgCg5YDD XT4IhSP7ZpBw6/Fv+Q3PCsI= =QfmU -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Anthony Towns wrote: I guess there's an inequality like: images on mirrors = images on torrents = images via jigdo Is there any way we can construct the torrent image on the fly from the jigdo file? [That is, transform the packages that make up bits x-y into what they'd be on the iso?] I don't know enough about the mkisofs process to say whether this is possible, but it'd be very useful if it were. Don Armstrong -- The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair. -- Douglas Adams _Mostly Harmless_ http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 02:21:45AM -0700, Don Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Anthony Towns wrote: I guess there's an inequality like: images on mirrors = images on torrents = images via jigdo Is there any way we can construct the torrent image on the fly from the jigdo file? [That is, transform the packages that make up bits x-y into what they'd be on the iso?] I don't know enough about the mkisofs process to say whether this is possible, but it'd be very useful if it were. That would most likely require a custom bittorrent server, but it doesn't seem impossible to me. That could be an interesting subject for GSoC. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Don Armstrong wrote: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Anthony Towns wrote: I guess there's an inequality like: images on mirrors = images on torrents = images via jigdo Is there any way we can construct the torrent image on the fly from the jigdo file? [That is, transform the packages that make up bits x-y into what they'd be on the iso?] I don't know enough about the mkisofs process to say whether this is possible, but it'd be very useful if it were. In theory yes, and this would be quite useful. The code for this needs to be written though. It would also be useful for me who runs the main cd torrent seeder in that I could just have an up-to-date debian archive and snapshot (minor rsync update), instead of syncing 300+ gigs of data before all the seeds are started up. /Mattias Wadenstein -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 02:21:45AM -0700, Don Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Anthony Towns wrote: I guess there's an inequality like: images on mirrors = images on torrents = images via jigdo Is there any way we can construct the torrent image on the fly from the jigdo file? [That is, transform the packages that make up bits x-y into what they'd be on the iso?] I don't know enough about the mkisofs process to say whether this is possible, but it'd be very useful if it were. That would most likely require a custom bittorrent server, but it doesn't seem impossible to me. That could be an interesting subject for GSoC. If someone were to write a general library that did this, it would be trivial to wrap a apache handler around it that fed out iso images for the less popular architectures too. Does someone who knows more about iso9660 and torrents want to write this up for GSoC? Don Armstrong -- I leave the show floor, but not before a pack of caffeinated Jolt gum is thrust at me by a hyperactive girl screaming, Chew more! Do more! The American will to consume more and produce more personified in a stick of gum. I grab it. -- Chad Dickerson http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:32:29AM +0100, Mattias Wadenstein wrote: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Don Armstrong wrote: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Anthony Towns wrote: I guess there's an inequality like: images on mirrors = images on torrents = images via jigdo Is there any way we can construct the torrent image on the fly from the jigdo file? [That is, transform the packages that make up bits x-y into what they'd be on the iso?] I don't know enough about the mkisofs process to say whether this is possible, but it'd be very useful if it were. In theory yes, and this would be quite useful. The code for this needs to be written though. It would also be useful for me who runs the main cd torrent seeder in that I could just have an up-to-date debian archive and snapshot (minor rsync update), instead of syncing 300+ gigs of data before all the seeds are started up. I've written code for jigdoofus (exactly the FUSE-based idea that aj suggested) already, but it needs some more work yet. My eventual hope was that it might allow lots of our normal archive mirrors to become CD ISO mirrors or torrent seeders. But I got distracted from it quite a while back... -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] Who needs computer imagery when you've got Brian Blessed? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
[Followups set to debian-cd] On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:32:29AM +0100, Mattias Wadenstein wrote: It would also be useful for me who runs the main cd torrent seeder in that I could just have an up-to-date debian archive and snapshot (minor rsync update), instead of syncing 300+ gigs of data before all the seeds are started up. Are you concerned about increased seek times, Matthias? IIRC people like Attila Nagy mentioned from time to time that jigdo thrashed their disks a bit more than regular .iso downloads. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:20:12AM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: I've written code for jigdoofus (exactly the FUSE-based idea that aj suggested) already, but it needs some more work yet. My eventual hope was that it might allow lots of our normal archive mirrors to become CD ISO mirrors or torrent seeders. But I got distracted from it quite a while back... IIRC jigdoofus uncompressed the data on the fly, which made it a bit slow, right? What's the right solution to cache the data from the .template file? Write the pieces to disk uncompressed? Re-compress them with something like LZO? Hmm, a FastCGI solution would also be possible for serving the files via HTTP (but not BitTorrent). I'm tempted... Cheers, Richard -- __ _ |_) /| Richard Atterer | GnuPG key: 888354F7 | \/¯| http://atterer.net | 08A9 7B7D 3D13 3EF2 3D25 D157 79E6 F6DC 8883 54F7 ¯ '` ¯ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Richard Atterer wrote: [Followups set to debian-cd] On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:32:29AM +0100, Mattias Wadenstein wrote: It would also be useful for me who runs the main cd torrent seeder in that I could just have an up-to-date debian archive and snapshot (minor rsync update), instead of syncing 300+ gigs of data before all the seeds are started up. Are you concerned about increased seek times, Matthias? IIRC people like Attila Nagy mentioned from time to time that jigdo thrashed their disks a bit more than regular .iso downloads. Yes, that is one concern. On the server side a plain iso download puts much less load on the system. On the other hand, shipping hundreds of gigs around to mirrors puts quite alot of load too. So I think we should keep the plain http downloads for the useful/popular set (netinst, i386/amd64 dvd isos and lower number cd isos, perhaps CD1/DVD1 for other arches that can boot from CD/DVD), the rest can probably be dropped from the mirrors. They can still be carried by cdimage.d.o/cdimage just like oldstable isos etc, but no need for putting them into the mirrored directory. /Mattias Wadenstein -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On 18/03/2008, Mattias Wadenstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Don Armstrong wrote: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Anthony Towns wrote: I guess there's an inequality like: images on mirrors = images on torrents = images via jigdo Is there any way we can construct the torrent image on the fly from the jigdo file? [That is, transform the packages that make up bits x-y into what they'd be on the iso?] I don't know enough about the mkisofs process to say whether this is possible, but it'd be very useful if it were. In theory yes, and this would be quite useful. The code for this needs to be written though. It would also be useful for me who runs the main cd torrent seeder in that I could just have an up-to-date debian archive and snapshot (minor rsync update), instead of syncing 300+ gigs of data before all the seeds are started up. /Mattias Wadenstein Hey, I'm interested in this as a problem solving exercise. I'm a beginner in the entire system, but curious. Torrents use md5 sums, chunks and a tracker to point at available portions of the file. The similarities to jigdo are there, so surely it should be possible to mash them together somehow. First question: What torrent tracker software does Debian use? BNBT? Rivettracker? cheers, Owen.
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 02:21:45AM -0700, Don Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Anthony Towns wrote: I guess there's an inequality like: images on mirrors = images on torrents = images via jigdo Is there any way we can construct the torrent image on the fly from the jigdo file? [That is, transform the packages that make up bits x-y into what they'd be on the iso?] Or maybe you could use debtorrent to download the files to fill out the jigdo image? (Disclaimer: I haven't used debtorrent so I don't know how efficient using it this way would be) Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blueray software, was: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:59:52PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst) ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB) Bluray image? Apparently there's been a winner in the format wars, and we could probably fit an entire arch on a single disc... Which brings up the question: Do we have some software in debian that can create and burn BlueRay discs? AFAIUI, cdrkit/wodim is not. -- Gruesse/greetings, Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Blueray software, was: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Monday 17 March 2008, Mike Hommey wrote: On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 09:29:12AM +0100, Reinhard Tartler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:59:52PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst) ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB) Bluray image? Apparently there's been a winner in the format wars, and we could probably fit an entire arch on a single disc... Which brings up the question: Do we have some software in debian that can create and burn BlueRay discs? AFAIUI, cdrkit/wodim is not. dvd+rw-tools is supposed to handle it. My guess it will be 18 - 24 months before bluray discs will be worth worrying about. Even then bluray disc(s) will take up about the same space as a CD set. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 027 663 4453 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - personal.[EMAIL PROTECTED] - business -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Blueray software, was: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 09:29:12AM +0100, Reinhard Tartler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:59:52PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst) ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB) Bluray image? Apparently there's been a winner in the format wars, and we could probably fit an entire arch on a single disc... Which brings up the question: Do we have some software in debian that can create and burn BlueRay discs? AFAIUI, cdrkit/wodim is not. dvd+rw-tools is supposed to handle it. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:59:52PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good. With my arm(el) hat on, none of the arm devices we currently support boot from cdrom/dvd, so the main use of full DVD set is to help installations at offline/slow-internet sites. One needs very good imagination to imagine full set of arm/armel CD's being usefull to anyone. But CDs containing enough to install common tasksel tasks can be usefull for corner case where there is no DVD reader available but there is a cdrom drive. -- rm -rf only sounds scary if you don't have backups signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Blueray software, was: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/17/08 04:47, Philip Charles wrote: [snip] worrying about. Even then bluray disc(s) will take up about the same space as a CD set. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Working with women is a pain in the a**. My wife -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH3m9HS9HxQb37XmcRApLaAJ9fpfcPRhfJ8Z1hYsANam2M6FZLNACeOsL6 ntvF3DWNkTyVI3bIsayJVwc= =qIzV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
[ /me sets the Reply-To: to debian-cd again... ] AJ wrote: On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:59:52PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst) ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB) Bluray image? Apparently there's been a winner in the format wars, and we could probably fit an entire arch on a single disc... Yeah, that would be cool. When somebody gets the time to work on it and test the output. :-) Should we be counting a live CD/DVD/BD image in there too? Probably, yes. I looked into live CDs for etch, but had problems. I should be looking into that again for lenny. Is it possible to do a javascript implementation of jigdo, so we could reasonably just publish a list of the files that need to go on most of the CDs instead of the entire iso images? If you can download an image via jigdo just by clicking in your browser, that'd seem like we could rely on jigdo much more heavily than we have. Ooh, now that's a cute idea. :-) I'll add that as a SoC suggested project right now. How many different boot images do we have these days? We used to have a different boot image on each of the first N CDs, do we still do that? No, we gave up on that quite a while ago. Is there really a lot of value in the netinst image, versus the business card? You're going to be downloading stuff anyway, so the only difference I can see is if your system can download once you've got base installed, but can't from the installer. Would it be simpler just to expect that class of people to grab a full CD/DVD image (and thus have more than just base available once they've rebooted and are trying to get net working)? The netinst is much more likely to be useful longer-term; you have a minimal but useable base system from the CD, with nothing further required. If (for example) there has been another point release or d-i update since your businesscard image was created it may break... At a bare minimum: - installer - downloadable (business card) - installer+base - jigdo-only? (netinst) - CD - disk 1 downloadable, disk 2+ jigdo-only - DVD - disk 1 downloadable, disk 2+ jigdo-only - BD - one image jigdo-only That's 25MB + 650MB + 4GB of images per-arch, for about 61GB in total, plus a whole bunch of jigdo images (about 500?). Yup. Is it possible to create a jigdo image without creating the full ISO? ie, to go from a list of files you want on the ISO straight to a jigdo template without the intervening step of actually copying all the files around? Oh, absolutely. That's one of the biggest changes I made in debian-cd/mkisofs to improve performance. However... if we want to continue providing torrent downloads (which are very popular, I understand) then we do still need to make the full images too. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] Every time you use Tcl, God kills a kitten. -- Malcolm Ray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
Hi All, Steve McIntyre wrote: Is it possible to create a jigdo image without creating the full ISO? ie, to go from a list of files you want on the ISO straight to a jigdo template without the intervening step of actually copying all the files around? Oh, absolutely. That's one of the biggest changes I made in debian-cd/mkisofs to improve performance. However... if we want to continue providing torrent downloads (which are very popular, I understand) then we do still need to make the full images too. Create the full images once, yes -- but store copies on all the mirrors, no. Once torrents get going and assuming they get more seeds out there, then the 'original' source full images could be removed or at minimum kept only on one server. Kind Regards AndrewM Andrew McGlashan Broadband Solutions now including VoIP Current Land Line No: 03 9912 0504 Mobile: 04 2574 1827 Fax: 03 9012 2178 National No: 1300 85 3804 Affinity Vision Australia Pty Ltd http://www.affinityvision.com.au http://adsl2choice.net.au In Case of Emergency -- http://www.affinityvision.com.au/ice.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Blueray software, was: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 08:16:55AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 03/17/08 04:47, Philip Charles wrote: [snip] worrying about. Even then bluray disc(s) will take up about the same space as a CD set. 21GB on CD is 21GB on Bluray. Physical space isn't an issue for us. Cheers, aj -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 01:39:40PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: [ /me sets the Reply-To: to debian-cd again... ] But not Mail-Followup-To:... At a bare minimum: - installer - downloadable (business card) - installer+base - downloadable (netinst) - CD - disk 1 downloadable, disk 2+ jigdo-only - DVD - disk 1 downloadable, disk 2+ jigdo-only - BD - one image jigdo-only That's 25MB + 650MB + 4GB of images per-arch, for about 61GB in total, plus a whole bunch of jigdo images (about 500?). So more like 25 + 150 + 650 + 4000 = 4825 per arch, for about 63GB in total. Either way. Is it possible to create a jigdo image without creating the full ISO? ie, to go from a list of files you want on the ISO straight to a jigdo template without the intervening step of actually copying all the files around? Oh, absolutely. That's one of the biggest changes I made in debian-cd/mkisofs to improve performance. However... if we want to continue providing torrent downloads (which are very popular, I understand) then we do still need to make the full images too. So, there's three user scenarios, I guess: - great network access, download everything directly (netinst gets the process started quickest, and downloading everything is fine) - good network access but don't want to download debs multiple times, or want to download in bulk in advance (run a proxy or mirror; or download DVD/CD images, and use them) - bad network access (buy/download everything on DVD/CD/BD and use it to install, or populate a local mirror) And there's four ways we can get debs to people: - regular archive (apt, netinst, jigdo) - raw images (download via cd mirrors) - torrented images (download via cd torrents) - vendors burn images and mail them to people If you're buying/mailing images, it's out of our hands, provided vendors can get images in the first place, so ignore that. Our regular archive is already mostly optimised, so the more people using it, the better; that's just a matter of more jigdo use, afaics. That leaves us with torrent and http iso downloaders -- possible lots or possibly not too many depending on whether we can make jigdo any easier. But I don't think there's any way to avoid that, it's just a question of how many, isn't it? I guess there's an inequality like: images on mirrors = images on torrents = images via jigdo And images on torrents = images you have to generate. And the inequalities go the other way too: ease of downloading = ease of torrenting = ease of jigdoing and the real question is where you say if you really want the 23rd CD for mipsel, you're probably smart/dedicated enough to use jigdo. The other thing we /could/ do is encourage people who've done successful Debian installs to help contribute by participating in a torrent after the fact -- you could do all sorts of things like have a FUSE filesystem that takes a (partial) mirror and a jigdo file and lets you see fake iso files, which you then seed via bittorrent, eg. You could automate that, so it's just a question like the popcon one: Do you wish to participate as a torrent seed for other people installing Debian? Yes [No] Another option would be a jigdo firefox plugin -- even if a pure javascript jigdo turns out too hard, a plugin ought to be pretty easy. Otherwise there's Java potentially, but at that point you start getting into OS-specific scenarios, and worrying about ActiveX or .NET and installers or whatever, at which point things get too hard. :-/ I guess another option would be to have a virtual appliance that will do all the jigdo stuff for you by running a cut down Debian in a virtual machine (vmplayer, qemu, etc) and generating the isos for you. Hrm. In the real world, does jigdo actually saturate broadband bandwidth? It's been a long time since I've tried it, but I vaguely remember it not actually being very speedy. Ah, it was the stop downloading, add files to image that used to slow things down, but seem less of an issue now. The repeated wgets probably still aren't great for that matter, since it serialises downloading and establishing connections. Cheers, aj signature.asc Description: Digital signature
What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
[ Please note Reply-To: to debian-cd... ] Hi folks, It's time for me to ask the question again - what CDs and DVDs will we find useful enough that we should make them for lenny? The reason I'm asking is that we're looking at a *huge* number of discs, and it's not clear that they'll all be useful. I've just finished building the full set for lenny d-i beta 1 (hence why I've been so quiet the last few days), and what we're looking at *now* is quite scary: 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst) ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB) Things are only going to get bigger: we're about to add armel to the mix, and I'm expecting that we're going to grow further yet in terms of the number and sizes of packages before we release lenny. That leaves us with a huge amount of data for us to build and host, and for our mirrors to handle too. So... 1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want *everything*? 2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the architectures? 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good. 4. ??? - what else would be a sane option? Suggestions/comments/complaints - please let us know what you'd prefer. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] There's no sensation to compare with this Suspended animation, A state of bliss -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
Steve McIntyre wrote: [ Please note Reply-To: to debian-cd... ] Hi folks, It's time for me to ask the question again - what CDs and DVDs will we find useful enough that we should make them for lenny? [...] 1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want *everything*? 2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the architectures? 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good. 4. ??? - what else would be a sane option? (I'd better disclose a conflict of interest - I sell Debian CDs and DVDs). I'd quite like there to be full sets for i386 and amd64. I think an inexperienced user could find it quite discouraging to have to install using a mapped drive. What about a modification of 3? For the less popular arches we provide the first couple of CD images, but the other CDs are only available as jigdo downloads. Does that make sense? You'd still have to create every CD image, of course, but the mirrors would have to carry much less data / traffic. Thanks, Paul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What CDs and DVDs should we produce for lenny?
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 11:59:52PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote: 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst) ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB) Bluray image? Apparently there's been a winner in the format wars, and we could probably fit an entire arch on a single disc... Should we be counting a live CD/DVD/BD image in there too? Is it possible to do a javascript implementation of jigdo, so we could reasonably just publish a list of the files that need to go on most of the CDs instead of the entire iso images? If you can download an image via jigdo just by clicking in your browser, that'd seem like we could rely on jigdo much more heavily than we have. How many different boot images do we have these days? We used to have a different boot image on each of the first N CDs, do we still do that? Is there really a lot of value in the netinst image, versus the business card? You're going to be downloading stuff anyway, so the only difference I can see is if your system can download once you've got base installed, but can't from the installer. Would it be simpler just to expect that class of people to grab a full CD/DVD image (and thus have more than just base available once they've rebooted and are trying to get net working)? At a bare minimum: - installer - downloadable (business card) - installer+base - jigdo-only? (netinst) - CD - disk 1 downloadable, disk 2+ jigdo-only - DVD - disk 1 downloadable, disk 2+ jigdo-only - BD - one image jigdo-only That's 25MB + 650MB + 4GB of images per-arch, for about 61GB in total, plus a whole bunch of jigdo images (about 500?). Is it possible to create a jigdo image without creating the full ISO? ie, to go from a list of files you want on the ISO straight to a jigdo template without the intervening step of actually copying all the files around? If so, then the cost of having all sorts of images available becomes pretty small: generate a jigdo, let people who want it download the image using a javascript capable web browser. Cheers, aj signature.asc Description: Digital signature
