Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 04:44:08AM -0700, Craig Brozefsky wrote: Tyger Sunshine-Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If we don't, what is the point of pouring so much work into making such a useful and _flexible_ distribution? Well, everyone has their own answer to that, but I'm satisfied that me, and my employer and some of my freinds are able to use this marvelous system. precisely! the point of debian (in fact, the point of all free software) is not world domination or market share. the point of it all is that it is available for use, modification, and sharing by those who want it. we're not here to get 100% market share, or 50% or even 20%. we're here to make the best system we can and share it amongst ourselves and with others, and also to encourage others to join in the effort. craig -- craig sanders
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
John == John Lapeyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John A couple of salaried positions would be nice. Full John time PR staff, ... Now *that* is something I could see value in. -- Stephen --- Long noun chains don't automatically imply security. - Bruce Schneier
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 01:32:06PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: Market share and World domination are not goals I strive to achieve. Market share, no. But world domination? C'mon, admit it would be fun to have the downtrodden of the world grovelling at your feet. Dogbert has the right attitude. Heck, I don't see why we can't just adopt Dogbert's attitude holus-bolus -- maybe with an s/Induhviduals/Users/g, but otherwise pretty much that. We could replace the `Dogbert wag' with the `Debian Pluck' (made by putting the thumb and forefinger together like a roosters beak, with the last three fingers splayed out, and then plucking your beak) and use that to claim a User as our personal slaves... H. Would we have to give tech support to all our personal Users? That might not be so good. Still. I'm sure we'll work something out. Cheers, aj, Debian New Ruling Class -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. PGP encrypted mail preferred. ``There's nothing worse than people with a clue. They're always disagreeing with you.'' -- Andrew Over pgp2gzvMOqczg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Fri, 21 May 1999, Craig Sanders wrote: we're not here to get 100% market share, or 50% or even 20%. we're here to make the best system we can and share it amongst ourselves and with others, and also to encourage others to join in the effort. IMO the property relations that exist between developers of GPL'd software are quite different than the property relations of the participants in market exchange. GPL'd software does not compete IN the market it competes WITH it. -steve
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
First question: If some major cash was donated to Debian, what would we do with it? Seriously, do we have a purpose for it, or would we just re-donate it to other projects? Sure that might look good for a story on Slashdot, but I'm more interested in making headlines for Debian because we actually accomplished something cool rather than making them just to make the average Slashdot reader think that Debian is as good as Redhat. A couple of salaried positions would be nice. Full time PR staff, ... Hmm.. I'd have said full time QA staff. If we are gonna have hired guns, let em blast at the bugs, then we *all* get value for our money... ..and the PR stuff almost looks after itself if every user is a happy user;-) best, Ron.
VA and debian boxes (was Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests)
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 08:35:30PM -0400, Brian Almeida wrote:
As for preinstallation, let me make two points:
a) Debian really has a long way to go for someone to do mass installs
of it, unattended.
it certainly could be easier, but it's not that hard. i build many
debian boxes...it just takes a lot of experience with debian and a good
knowledge of how to use the available tools ('dpkg --get-selections' and
'dpkg --set-selections' are very useful). I usually build them like
this because i like to use unstable rather than stable (in my experience
the only drawback to this is that there are some days when it is unsafe
to build a machine and i have to wait another day or two for fixed
packages to appear in my debian mirror)
for serious assembly line mass-production of boxes using the stable
release of debian, i would build one standard server (or maybe a
selection of two or three standard configurations - web server, file
and print server, and internet gateway) and use 'dd' or 'tar' to
duplicate the drive. finally, follow that up with a perl or sed/sh/ed
script to customise the config files.
i've done this many times (e.g. to build ppp dialin boxes for schools -
except for IP address and hostname and other minor details, the machines
are identical to each other), and it works. There is no difference
between a debian box built this way and one built using the standard
boot floppies.
e.g. put new server on bench, plug into network. boot with floppy which
NFS mounts a directory containing a .tar.gz file of a complete working
debian installation. partition the disks. untar the archive. run lilo.
run a perl script to customise things like hostname, mailname, ip
address, etc.
(alternatively, the same thing could be done with a custom-burnt CD ROM
rather than an NFS mounted tar archive)
any further customisation can be done by the customer using dpkg
and apt-get. prefer postfix over exim? no problem, apt-get install
postfix. don't want samba? no problem, dpkg -r samba. the important
thing is to have debian (at least base and networking) installed and
working...from that point on, maintaining the system and installing
packages is easyeven from thousands of miles away.
...
Also consider this, linux.com is a 100%-debian drive site - from the
impressions I've gotten, the VA people are really big on Debian, but
for the reasons above aren't doing preinstalls of it. Don't be so
quick to judge things.
agreed. VA really like debian (and they do a lot to support us).
my partner recently tried to get two debian servers from VA Research.
The guy she spoke to was quite knowledgeable about debian and understood
the reasons why she wanted debian rather than RH (to summarize:
quality), but was embarassed to admit that VA dont have the staff to
support debian. He said that VA's debian-using customers generally
don't need a lot of support...but when they do, it is for something
really obscure and difficult which their support staff can't handle.
in short, VA would like to provide debian servers but don't have the
staff or time to do so...they're working flat-out already.
Even so, he went to a lot of trouble to find a VA Research employee who
would take a contract job to install debian on the servers (he said many
of their techs use debian). he wasn't able to do so in the time-frame
that my partner had for installing her servers...so she got someone
from Frontier Global (the co-lo facility the servers were going to) to
install debian for herVA supplied the hardware, GF installed debian.
(btw, this was all organised remotely from australia, via email and
telephone).
a few things seem immediately obvious to me from this:
1. maybe there should be official discussions between debian and VA
Research to figure out what features we could add that would enable VA
to start offering debian boxes again...they used to build them in the
past.
2. there may be an opportunity for debian developers and experienced
debian users to provide contract setup, support, and consulting services
for debian boxes through VA Research - it certainly can't hurt to
contact them.
3. if you want a co-located debian box, Frontier Global is a good
option. their main co-lo facility is not far from VA Research, and
they had debian installed and running very quickly after receiving the
hardware from VA.
craig
--
craig sanders
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 06:10:14PM -0500, David Welton wrote: Personally, I'm happy to know that I'm involved in making a kick ass OS, and as long as no one messes with my ability to do that, I'm fine. hear! hear! couldn't agree more. RH isn't competition to debian except in the most positive sense of friendly rivalry. We have different aims, different goals. Their goal is to produce and market a linux distribution which keeps their company financially viable. Our goal is to produce a distribution which does what we want with entirely free software. Sometimes these goals co-incide or complement each other. sometimes they don't. They certainly don't conflict or harm each other. craig -- craig sanders
Re: VA and debian boxes (was Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 20 May 1999 10:11:42 +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: selection of two or three standard configurations - web server, file and print server, and internet gateway) and use 'dd' or 'tar' to duplicate the drive. finally, follow that up with a perl or sed/sh/ed script to customise the config files. 4. Workstation. :) - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.0 (C) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc iQA/AwUBN0NcXXpf7K2LbpnFEQLNNgCgxno1usQ5Fh3i3MoF95YK1xd20LsAoNZf yzmn4r+o1ZV6L4dtVNRSyhlh =baKV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
RH isn't competition to debian except in the most positive sense of friendly rivalry. We have different aims, different goals. Their goal is to produce and market a linux distribution which keeps their company financially viable. Our goal is to produce a distribution which does what we want with entirely free software. Sometimes these goals co-incide or complement each other. sometimes they don't. They certainly don't conflict or harm each other. Well, maybe, but the fact is that Debian could use some sponsorships or major donations, and as long as RH keeps the spotlight, guess who they go to? Eventually, we have to get Debian out of its shell and get the average linux user (If there is such a thing) to use Debian more. If we don't, what is the point of pouring so much work into making such a useful and _flexible_ distribution? ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
Tyger Sunshine-Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, maybe, but the fact is that Debian could use some sponsorships or major donations, and as long as RH keeps the spotlight, guess who they go to? Eventually, we have to get Debian out of its shell and get the average linux user (If there is such a thing) to use Debian more. If we don't, what is the point of pouring so much work into making such a useful and _flexible_ distribution? Well, everyone has their own answer to that, but I'm satisfied that me, and my employer and some of my freinds are able to use this marvelous system. -- Craig Brozefsky[EMAIL PROTECTED] Less matter, more form! - Bruno Schulz ignazz, I am truly korrupted by yore sinful tzourceware. -jb The Osmonds! You are all Osmonds!! Throwing up on a freeway at dawn!!!
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
Hi, Tyger == Tyger Sunshine-Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tyger Well, maybe, but the fact is that Debian could use some Tyger sponsorships or major donations, We could? What shall we use them for? (Not that we shall turn away any donations, mind you, but we may *need* less than one thinks). Tyger and as long as RH keeps the spotlight, guess who they go to? From the tone of your question, I'd say the expected answer is RH. More power to them. They are _not_ the enemy. Tyger Eventually, we have to get Debian out of its shell and get Tyger the average linux user (If there is such a thing) to use Tyger Debian more. Why on earth do we have to do that? Tyger If we don't, what is the point of pouring so much work into Tyger making such a useful and _flexible_ distribution? I can't speak for others, but *I* do it cause it pleases my muse. Getting Debian out to the great unwashed masses rouses little but mild curiosity in me, and certainly not eough to warrant the amount of effort I put into my packages. Market share and World domination are not goals I strive to achieve. And fragmenting the free software community to achieve them is definitly not the way I want to go. I *like* Red Hat. manoj -- UFOs are for real: the Air Force doesn't exist. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 07:09:28AM -0700, Tyger Sunshine-Hill wrote: RH isn't competition to debian except in the most positive sense of friendly rivalry. We have different aims, different goals. Their goal is to produce and market a linux distribution which keeps their company financially viable. Our goal is to produce a distribution which does what we want with entirely free software. Sometimes these goals co-incide or complement each other. sometimes they don't. They certainly don't conflict or harm each other. Well, maybe, but the fact is that Debian could use some sponsorships or major donations, and as long as RH keeps the spotlight, guess who they go to? Eventually, we have to get Debian out of its shell and get the average linux user (If there is such a thing) to use Debian more. If we don't, what is the point of pouring so much work into making such a useful and _flexible_ distribution? First question: If some major cash was donated to Debian, what would we do with it? Seriously, do we have a purpose for it, or would we just re-donate it to other projects? Sure that might look good for a story on Slashdot, but I'm more interested in making headlines for Debian because we actually accomplished something cool rather than making them just to make the average Slashdot reader think that Debian is as good as Redhat. Sure PR is important, but I think we should be working harder to target our PR to the people it will do the most good. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Debian GNU/Linux developer PGP: E8D68481E3A8BB77 8EE22996C9445FBEThe Source Comes First! - james abuse me. I'm so lame I sent a bug report to debian-devel-changes pgpNYSlWBIkfS.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I can't speak for others, but *I* do it cause it pleases my muse. Getting Debian out to the great unwashed masses rouses little but mild curiosity in me, and certainly not eough to warrant the amount of effort I put into my packages. Hear hear! I also like the idea of sharing my work with other *developers* so that *we* all have a better system. I'm not interested in cramming my work down anyone's throat, however. Anyone who *wants* to use it should feel free, but aside from that Market share and World domination are not goals I strive to achieve. Market share, no. But world domination? C'mon, admit it would be fun to have the downtrodden of the world grovelling at your feet. Dogbert has the right attitude. Oh wait, you mean world domination for Debian? Never mind. I don't care about the rest of you bums, I want those downtrodden grovelling at *my* feet! :-) -- Chris Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] | I have a truly elegant proof of the or[EMAIL PROTECTED] | above, but it is too long to fit into http://www.dsp.net/xtifr | this .signature file.
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
I'd like to think we could use it to pay or help pay for booths to the trade shows. LinuxWorld, for those who were there was evidence that a small booth just isn't big enough for all the Debian folks who want to help out, and for all the cool stuff that people brought down. Also, Debian CD's are always needed to give out, electric, insurance, the booth space itself. Rather than go on a show to show basis, large donations COULD pay for the booth, or for a larger booth than a 10x10. David Bristel On Thu, 20 May 1999, Joseph Carter wrote: Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:04:44 -0700 From: Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tyger Sunshine-Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests Resent-Date: 20 May 1999 20:04:57 - Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 07:09:28AM -0700, Tyger Sunshine-Hill wrote: RH isn't competition to debian except in the most positive sense of friendly rivalry. We have different aims, different goals. Their goal is to produce and market a linux distribution which keeps their company financially viable. Our goal is to produce a distribution which does what we want with entirely free software. Sometimes these goals co-incide or complement each other. sometimes they don't. They certainly don't conflict or harm each other. Well, maybe, but the fact is that Debian could use some sponsorships or major donations, and as long as RH keeps the spotlight, guess who they go to? Eventually, we have to get Debian out of its shell and get the average linux user (If there is such a thing) to use Debian more. If we don't, what is the point of pouring so much work into making such a useful and _flexible_ distribution? First question: If some major cash was donated to Debian, what would we do with it? Seriously, do we have a purpose for it, or would we just re-donate it to other projects? Sure that might look good for a story on Slashdot, but I'm more interested in making headlines for Debian because we actually accomplished something cool rather than making them just to make the average Slashdot reader think that Debian is as good as Redhat. Sure PR is important, but I think we should be working harder to target our PR to the people it will do the most good. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Debian GNU/Linux developer PGP: E8D68481E3A8BB77 8EE22996C9445FBEThe Source Comes First! - james abuse me. I'm so lame I sent a bug report to debian-devel-changes pgp8dQl26VTSC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
Think about it though, if Debian were the OS of choice, those who are involved now would be considered the regional gurus, and that means we get paid more by companies who want the most experienced and knowledgeable people. Then we WOULD have the masses groveling. Dave Bristel On 20 May 1999, Chris Waters wrote: Date: 20 May 1999 13:32:06 -0700 From: Chris Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests Resent-Date: 20 May 1999 20:34:49 - Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I can't speak for others, but *I* do it cause it pleases my muse. Getting Debian out to the great unwashed masses rouses little but mild curiosity in me, and certainly not eough to warrant the amount of effort I put into my packages. Hear hear! I also like the idea of sharing my work with other *developers* so that *we* all have a better system. I'm not interested in cramming my work down anyone's throat, however. Anyone who *wants* to use it should feel free, but aside from that Market share and World domination are not goals I strive to achieve. Market share, no. But world domination? C'mon, admit it would be fun to have the downtrodden of the world grovelling at your feet. Dogbert has the right attitude. Oh wait, you mean world domination for Debian? Never mind. I don't care about the rest of you bums, I want those downtrodden grovelling at *my* feet! :-) -- Chris Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] | I have a truly elegant proof of the or[EMAIL PROTECTED] | above, but it is too long to fit into http://www.dsp.net/xtifr | this .signature file. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
*Manoj Srivastava wrote: I can't speak for others, but *I* do it cause it pleases my muse. Getting Debian out to the great unwashed masses rouses little but mild curiosity in me, and certainly not eough to warrant the amount of effort I put into my packages. In general, it seems that making Debian useful to the masses and making it useful to developers are not antithetical goals. There is a lot that can be done to make it better for both groups. I am worried about a minimum amount of interest in order to keep Debian (or something like it ) going. But it doesn't look like interest will wane in the near future. RH's rhetoric is that growth of Debian and Caldera helps RH. And I think they believe this rhetoric to a certain extent. If the time came when a significant number of people were asking companies to support their Debian boxes, RH would not hesitate to offer that support. Everything I have read makes me believe that VA and SGI and Compaq and whoever will have no problem responding to a demand to install and support Debian. If Debian developers want more commercial success, they can work for it. If enough (like Manoj) don't care, then we won't get commercial support and recognition. It's probably OK either way. They can't drive us out of business. -- John Lapeyre [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tucson,AZ http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~lapeyre
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
*Joseph Carter wrote: First question: If some major cash was donated to Debian, what would we do with it? Seriously, do we have a purpose for it, or would we just re-donate it to other projects? Sure that might look good for a story on Slashdot, but I'm more interested in making headlines for Debian because we actually accomplished something cool rather than making them just to make the average Slashdot reader think that Debian is as good as Redhat. A couple of salaried positions would be nice. Full time PR staff, ... -- John Lapeyre [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tucson,AZ http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~lapeyre
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
RedCrap already has everyone where they want them; in their back pocket, filling their wallet more and more everyday. Alongside VA Research. So, if this really bothers you, do something about it. Make a company and start marketing the hell out of Debian. That's most of what Redhat is - marketing. That's not a bad thing, necessarily - marketing is what it takes to get your name out in the world. It might be nice if it weren't so important, but it is. Deal with it. As far as Big Companies go, redhat isn't so bad. Be very thankful they didn't go the caldera route, where it seems as if they really don't want to GPL anything they don't have to. Instead, they spend a lot of money funding guys like Alan Cox. And making money for themselves - but that's not a bad thing - that's the goal of most companies. So, if you truly believe in some sort of ideology where making money is bad, that's one thing - don't single out redhat for criticism. If you are bitter about their success, do something about it instead of just whining. Sorry for the long post, and I don't really mean to pick on Phillip, but these rantings are getting kind of lame. They sound, in some sense, a bit juvenile, and not worthy of our time. Personally, I'm happy to know that I'm involved in making a kick ass OS, and as long as no one messes with my ability to do that, I'm fine. Ciao, -- David N. Welton Sors immanis - et inanis - rota tu volubilis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] status malus - vana salus - semper dissolubilis, http://www.efn.org/~davidwobumbrata - et velata - michi quoque niteris; debian.org + prosa.it nunc per ludum - dorsum nudum - fero tui sceleris.
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, 18 May 1999, David Welton wrote: So, if this really bothers you, do something about it. Make a company and start marketing the hell out of Debian. That's most of what Redhat is - marketing. That's not a bad thing, necessarily - marketing is what it takes to get your name out in the world. It might be nice if it weren't so important, but it is. Deal with it. Now, see, I really would if I could. But I've got a full time job at a startup. That translates to 70 hour weeks sometimes. More often than not. On top of that, I'm already busy advancing Linux on the RS/6000, catching miscellaneous bugs here and there in arch/ppc, and pulling my hair out fixing design flaws in things. As far as Big Companies go, redhat isn't so bad. Be very thankful they didn't go the caldera route, where it seems as if they really don't want to GPL anything they don't have to. Instead, they spend a lot of money funding guys like Alan Cox. And making money for themselves - but that's not a bad thing - that's the goal of most companies. But how do you know they won't go the Caldera route down the line? The fact that they're only in it for the money doesn't really bug me. The fact that they would release such buggy and insecure distributions, however, does. Till they get a real grip on quality control, you won't catch me installing it. And what about their 'partners'? I have yet to see one of their contracts. And I'm just getting this eerie feeling that, well, it's an exclusive contract. If you offer RedHat, you only offer RedHat as far as Linux go, at least on preinstalled systems. VA Research no longer offers SuSE, or Windows either, on any of their systems. Only RedHat 5.2. That bugs me. So, if you truly believe in some sort of ideology where making money is bad, that's one thing - don't single out redhat for criticism. If you are bitter about their success, do something about it instead of just whining. Making money isn't bad. It's how you make it that makes it bad. Sorry for the long post, and I don't really mean to pick on Phillip, but these rantings are getting kind of lame. They sound, in some sense, a bit juvenile, and not worthy of our time. True, but some of them have brought up some pretty valid points. Especially yours. If we don't market Debian, to be blunt, we're going to get fucked. This LPI moron obviously has some serious press contacts. He's got personal reasons. The more damage he can do to Debian, the less credible we seem, and the more power Caldera and RedHat have. And he didn't even mention Slackware, which IMNSHO, is probably the *BEST* distribution if you're going to tinker like hell with it. Bottom line is, unless we can make marketshare magically appear, those people hiding over in debian-pr and all of us here had better get off our asses (those of us who can, that is;) and *SELL SELL SELL!* (Sorry, had to say it.;) Personally, I'm happy to know that I'm involved in making a kick ass OS, and as long as no one messes with my ability to do that, I'm fine. Heh. I won't be happy till Linux is running on every architecture there is. I don't give a damn how obscure, old, or obsolete it is. I want to see Linux on it. Hr.. z80 port, anyone? :) -prj
RE: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
Title: RE: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests RedCrap already has everyone where they want them; in their back pocket, filling their wallet more and more everyday. Alongside VA Research. I find it offensive that you attack VA research, who provides many of the resources we enjoy as Debian developers. Regards, -Brent
RE: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, 18 May 1999, Brent Fulgham wrote: RedCrap already has everyone where they want them; in their back pocket, filling their wallet more and more everyday. Alongside VA Research. I find it offensive that you attack VA research, who provides many of the resources we enjoy as Debian developers. That's MY opinion. Not necessarily yours. I can't get a system without RedHat preinstalled from VA Research last I checked, they never returned my calls, so as far as I'm concerned, they're about as good a company as Compaq or Microsoft. They're more concerned about PR via donations, and making money, than they are about customer service. -prj
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 10:49:09AM -0400, Phillip R. Jaenke wrote: That's MY opinion. Not necessarily yours. I can't get a system without RedHat preinstalled from VA Research last I checked, they never returned my calls, so as far as I'm concerned, they're about as good a company as Compaq or Microsoft. They're more concerned about PR via donations, and making money, than they are about customer service. From what I've seen of some VA people on the lists, they're quite helpful (eg Chris Dibona - is there a mailing list he ISN'T on?). VA isn't a perfect company, but they're far from evil...they're still growing, from what I've heard they've like quadrupled the amount of employees, and are having some growing pains... As for preinstallation, let me make two points: a) Debian really has a long way to go for someone to do mass installs of it, unattended. b) Even if they DID ship debian preinstalled, how long would you keep it on the machine? Especially since you have remarked that part of your job is security auditing? For me, it would probably be about one boot away from being fdisk'd and reinstalled - one reason to do it would be to set up the partitions the way I want. Also consider this, linux.com is a 100%-debian drive site - from the impressions I've gotten, the VA people are really big on Debian, but for the reasons above aren't doing preinstalls of it. Don't be so quick to judge things. -- Brian Almeida [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debian Linux Developer - http://www.debian.org finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for GPG/PGP public keys Put simply, Debian is to RedHat what Linux is to Windows.
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
Phillip R. Jaenke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And what about their 'partners'? I have yet to see one of their contracts. And I'm just getting this eerie feeling that, well, it's an exclusive contract. If you offer RedHat, you only offer RedHat as far as Linux go, at least on preinstalled systems. VA Research no longer offers SuSE, or Windows either, on any of their systems. Only RedHat 5.2. That bugs me. That is a completely unfounded fear. You can look at the requirements for their resellers online at: http://www.redhat.com/corp/corp_partners_channel.html This includes the contract. All requirements are bound only to those systems you sell RedHat software on, and you are not required to sell only RedHat software. None of the requirements even mention what you are allowed to sell or not, they just say that you must provide tech support in certain situations, maintain staff that is RH certified, and achieve a minimum level of sales in RH software. There are various reasons why box pusher would want to limit the number of different distributions they support. Internally at my work we limit all of our support to Debian. When you consider that they are dealing with a tremendous number of clients, then limiting the variability of the installation makes it much easier for them to support their clients. If I was a box pusher I might well settle on supporting nothing but Debian. Talking with VA sales indicates that this was probably the primary motivator for reducing the number of distributions they supported, it was having negative effects on the performance of their tech support departments. So, provided we were able to generate more demand for Debian, I could certainly see their position changing. And anyways, there is no call for bad-mouthing organizations that have supported Debian with many resources, especially not when your complaint is mostly FUD and rumor mongering. Complaints about technical reliability are certainly valid, but they should not become the ground for such juvenile name-calling and FUD. In my mind you owe RedHat, VA Research and this list a retraction of your groundless claims and possibly an apology. If we don't market Debian, to be blunt, we're going to get fucked. This LPI moron obviously has some serious press contacts. He's got personal reasons. The more damage he can do to Debian, the less credible we seem, and the more power Caldera and RedHat have. And he didn't even mention Slackware, which IMNSHO, is probably the *BEST* distribution if you're going to tinker like hell with it. Maybe the first thing you should do then is think about what you can constructively say to him and others. You seem to be really good at talking at least, but it's the constructive part that has got you baffled it seems. I would propose, and if noone who is more familiar with Mr. Leibovitch is planning to do so, explaining to him the reasons behind several of Debian's decisions which he is attributing to irrational ideology or some sort. This means explaining that Debian is not against business, and that one of the reasons why we have such strict and well defined guidelines about licensing for packages is so that companies can easily and without fear repackage our work and use it as the base for their own distribution, like Corel is. No other distribution that I know of has made their licensing policy so well defined, and public (which implies stability). We should explain why we chose not to include KDE in our main distribution. That distributing KDE violates a license which is the cornerstone of all Linux distributions (because the kernel is placed under it) the GPL. This is not an ideological position, somehow opposing KDE or QT in favor of GNOME. Debian simply does not want to violate the law in a way which may weaken the binding power of the Free Software communities most important(arguable) license. Perhaps you could better spend your time writing articles about these common misunderstandings about Debian, rather than bad-mouthing, with no real basis, the people who give us the servers and bandwidth we use to create it. I propose that you would win more support for Debian that way, which is what you yourself recommend we do. -- Craig Brozefsky[EMAIL PROTECTED] Less matter, more form! - Bruno Schulz ignazz, I am truly korrupted by yore sinful tzourceware. -jb The Osmonds! You are all Osmonds!! Throwing up on a freeway at dawn!!!
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 10:49:09AM -0400, Phillip R. Jaenke wrote: I find it offensive that you attack VA research, who provides many of the resources we enjoy as Debian developers. That's MY opinion. Not necessarily yours. I can't get a system without RedHat preinstalled from VA Research last I checked, they never returned my calls, so as far as I'm concerned, they're about as good a company as Compaq or Microsoft. They're more concerned about PR via donations, and making money, than they are about customer service. VA has been saying that sooner or later they're going to start offering Debian and many people inside VA are working to make it sooner rather than later. I'm not worried about it, there's nothing inherently BAD about Redhat. Granted it's not the same caliber of distribution that Debian is when it comes right down to rock solid stability, but so what? It's still Linux, they still value Free Software... Granted they happen to ALSO value their profit margins, but there's NOTHING WRONG with that. VA does a lot for Debian, a lot for individual Debian developers when they need it, and a lot for the Linux community in general. Been to themes.org recently? VA hosts it---and in fact they hired Trae. www.debian.org is actually va.debian.org, a VA machine using VA's bandwidth. pandora, our new non-us machine.. VA donated it. Even the monitor I'm sitting in front of right this minute... VA donated it to me personally because I could barely read the one I had even in text mode. It's a 19 monitor that I can use (depending on what I'm doing) anywhere from 800x600 to 1153x864 in X, whereas before I could not even RUN X! VA has done a LOT for a LOT of people. They aren't clueless, they aren't trying to rape the community while they promise things they don't devliver. They have never once tried to do something that hurts the community for a quick buck. They've never played games with us. I've said before that I think we have almost nothing to fear from the likes of Micro$oft. We have more to fear from the people who are harming us from within our own ranks. There are companies out there who are hurting us badly, but Redhat and VA Research ain't among them. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Debian GNU/Linux developer PGP: E8D68481E3A8BB77 8EE22996C9445FBEThe Source Comes First! - How many months are we going to be behind them [Redhat] with a glibc release? -- Jim Pick, 8 months before Debian 2.0 is finally released pgpS5KgOstQ5Y.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 10:49:09AM -0400, Phillip R. Jaenke wrote: That's MY opinion. Not necessarily yours. I can't get a system without RedHat preinstalled from VA Research last I checked, they never returned my calls, so as far as I'm concerned, they're about as good a company as Compaq or Microsoft. They're more concerned about PR via donations, and making money, than they are about customer service. If you approach them in a similar manner to that you're employing here then it's not altogether surprising that they don't return your calls. The level of abuse you're giving both VA Research and RedHat is completely inappropriate, and you're spreading far too much mindless FUD. Support Debian: get pointless abuse on Debian mailing lists. -- Mark Brown mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Not selling Debian either) http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~broonie/ EUFShttp://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/filmsoc/ pgpgM81wvyCK7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
-Original Message- From: Brian Almeida [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Phillip R. Jaenke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Brent Fulgham [EMAIL PROTECTED]; debian-devel@lists.debian.org debian-devel@lists.debian.org Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 7:35 PM Subject: Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 10:49:09AM -0400, Phillip R. Jaenke wrote: That's MY opinion. Not necessarily yours. I can't get a system without RedHat preinstalled from VA Research last I checked, they never returned my calls, so as far as I'm concerned, they're about as good a company as Compaq or Microsoft. They're more concerned about PR via donations, and making money, than they are about customer service. From what I've seen of some VA people on the lists, they're quite helpful (eg Chris Dibona - is there a mailing list he ISN'T on?). VA isn't a perfect company, but they're far from evil...they're still growing, from what I've heard they've like quadrupled the amount of employees, and are having some growing pains... As for preinstallation, let me make two points: a) Debian really has a long way to go for someone to do mass installs of it, unattended. b) Even if they DID ship debian preinstalled, how long would you keep it on the machine? Especially since you have remarked that part of your job is security auditing? For me, it would probably be about one boot away from being fdisk'd and reinstalled - one reason to do it would be to set up the partitions the way I want. Also consider this, linux.com is a 100%-debian drive site - from the impressions I've gotten, the VA people are really big on Debian, but for the reasons above aren't doing preinstalls of it. Don't be so quick to judge things. Agreed, there are people at VA that are Debian bigots just like the rest of us. And Red Hat? Gnome, Video4Linux, Enlightenment, rpm... they put a lot into the Linux community. Mark
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 10:49:09AM -0400, Phillip R. Jaenke wrote: On Tue, 18 May 1999, Brent Fulgham wrote: RedCrap already has everyone where they want them; in their back pocket, filling their wallet more and more everyday. Alongside VA Research. I find it offensive that you attack VA research, who provides many of the resources we enjoy as Debian developers. That's MY opinion. Not necessarily yours. I can't get a system without RedHat preinstalled from VA Research last I checked, they never returned my calls, so as far as I'm concerned, they're about as good a company as Compaq or Microsoft. They're more concerned about PR via donations, and making money, than they are about customer service. Ever tried mass-installing Debian? It's simply impossible -- complete, new debian installations take at least two hours of babysitting. This makes debian a product VA is incapable of marketing. Of course, there are ways around this, like imaging drives and whatnot. But, as someone else mentioned, it costs them money, and they have the right to expend those resources, or not, as they choose. -- ..Aaron Van Couwenberghe... [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Berlin: http://www.berlin-consortium.org Debian GNU/Linux: http://www.debian.org ...Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing... -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 07:24:40PM -0700, Aaron Van Couwenberghe wrote: Ever tried mass-installing Debian? It's simply impossible -- complete, new debian installations take at least two hours of babysitting. This makes debian a product VA is incapable of marketing. Of course, there are ways around this, like imaging drives and whatnot. But, as someone else mentioned, it costs them money, and they have the right to expend those resources, or not, as they choose. -- ..Aaron Van Couwenberghe... [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Berlin: http://www.berlin-consortium.org Debian GNU/Linux: http://www.debian.org ...Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing... -- Ralph Waldo Emerson Well, actualy i have semi-mass installed machines...I did 30 or so machines, all i really had to do was put all the packages i wanted to install into a single dir that i nfs mounted(from the base system). i dpkg -i'd those with a program i wrote that parsed the output of dpkg, and gave the answers i specified. Now, i admit this wasn't the best way to mass install, because it did take me 10-20 minutes to get the base system installed, so this is probably too long for a company like VA, but it should be entirely possible to mass install debian, if debian would put some work twords it. Erik Bernhardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [T]he last thing I want to do is spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in [the users'] minds. - Don Jones, Microsoft's Y2K Product Manager pgp4NlrWDetnw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 08:35:50PM -0400, Brian Almeida wrote: a) Debian really has a long way to go for someone to do mass installs of it, unattended. True. Do you think any systems vendor uses the normal installation procedure to install the system software on machines during production? I doubt it. You'd just format the new disk and copy everything across, then put it in the machine. Debian, Windows, whatever, all can be done unattended this way. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB (ex-VK3TYD). CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome.
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 06:10:34PM -0500, David Welton wrote: RedCrap already has everyone where they want them; in their back pocket, filling their wallet more and more everyday. Alongside VA Research. As far as Big Companies go, redhat isn't so bad. Be very thankful they didn't go the caldera route, where it seems as if they really don't want to GPL anything they don't have to. Instead, they spend a lot of money funding guys like Alan Cox. And making money for themselves - but that's not a bad thing - that's the goal of most companies. Hmmm, Alan Cox, Stephen Tweedie, Dave Miller, Federico Mena Qunitero, Raster, ... You'll probably recognize some names ;-) So where's the beef ? Greetings, Christian -- Christian Meder, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] What's the railroad to me ? I never go to see Where it ends. It fills a few hollows, And makes banks for the swallows, It sets the sand a-blowing, And the blackberries a-growing. (Henry David Thoreau)
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 10:17:11PM -0700, Erik wrote: Well, actualy i have semi-mass installed machines...I did 30 or so machines, all i really had to do was put all the packages i wanted to install into a single dir that i nfs mounted(from the base system). i dpkg -i'd those with a program i wrote that parsed the output of dpkg, and gave the answers i specified. Now, i admit this wasn't the best way to mass install, because it did take me 10-20 minutes to get the base system installed, so this is probably too long for a company like VA, but it should be entirely possible to mass install debian, if debian would put some work twords it. dpkg needs some work before this will become feasible. Many people have proposed ideas, but only one has done any work. Anyone know where doogie's dconfig scripts are? -- ..Aaron Van Couwenberghe... [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Berlin: http://www.berlin-consortium.org Debian GNU/Linux: http://www.debian.org ...Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing... -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
Hi, Yeah, you can say I told you so even though... I thought my email got censured... I guess it just got lost, this deb-devel list is busy !! I'm shooting for trinux... it has all the things I like about corporate teamwork like security type integrity and qa controls. And none of the other nasty stuff. Xwin is verboten on Trinux, and that I like feature. My product will hopefully ~use~ trinux, but I am looking at the pokeman crowd. Pretty soon these kids will be using small systems and I would really like to give them a good start and pull some of them into the net devel community I am trying to start for them. --- Phillip R. Jaenke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 18 May 1999, Joseph Carter wrote: I think prj has one such cd from Caldera and I can confirm that I've seen one too. The person who had it wouldn't give it up unfortunately. They're saving it for the same reasons I want it--to show people just what kind of company Caldera really is. I do have one such CD. That's what cost Caldera every shred of my respect. I will GLEEFULLY burn fucking copy after copy for people who want it to see it. It's ANCIENT, but it's basically the same thing they're sending out day after day now as demo CDs. It's legal. 30 day preview license, redistributable. May Caldera rot in hell beside RedCrap and VA Research, who won't give me a system *WITHOUT* RedCrap. -prj === John van Vlaanderen # #CXN, Inc. Contact: # #[EMAIL PROTECTED], www.thinman.com # #1 917 309 7379 (cell, voice mail) # # _ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com
evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/linux/opinion/0,5954,2260109,00.html On the other hand, those in our world who believe in manipulating language for political means insist on the term GNU/Linux in order to pay forced homage to the FSF and GNU. Mr. Leibovitch is the executive directory of The Linux Professional Institute, which is non-profit corporation attempting to provide standardized certification across all Linux platforms. Normally, such rhetoric as he spouts in this article (and a previous one which mistakenly assumed that the Debian refusal to distribute KDE was an ideological position when it is in actuality a legal decision) does not cause me any concern, but the fact that he is the exec. director of a organization that could become a important force for certification (with several vendors lining up behind them already) gives me pause. After reading his articles it is apparent that he has slotted Debian as some niche academic distribution with little promise in commercial endeavors: Debian, so far, has been very popular in academia, hobbyist and research circles, but doesn't appear to be a big player in the retail and commercial fields. LPI as a whole does not appear to have such a uneducated opinion as Mr. Leibovitch on Debian's decisions to call itself GNU/Linux or to not distribute programs in violation of their licenses (especially what that license is the cornerstone of the Free Software movement). Their mission statement is to be distribution neutral as much as possible. Their strategy is to provide both general, and distributions testing. Their method for developing the exams is community based, with lots of outside input, and the exams will be publicly available so that third-parties can base training and testing on them. Might I suggest that someone involved with Debian PR contact Mr. Leibovitch and attempt to open a dialog with him in order to better educate him on why Debian has made various decisions, and why Debian is not anti-commercial by any means. If noone is available to do this, then I could attempt it (I imagine Adam DiCarlo just gasped in disbelief). Also, if anyone representing Debian interests is working with LPI presently could they post a quick summary of how things are going there? And lastly, if someone who knows the Debian group dynamics better than me can make better suggestions on how to better educate Mr. Leibovitch, I'm certainly listening. -- Craig Brozefsky[EMAIL PROTECTED] Less matter, more form! - Bruno Schulz ignazz, I am truly korrupted by yore sinful tzourceware. -jb The Osmonds! You are all Osmonds!! Throwing up on a freeway at dawn!!!
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:16:38PM -0700, Craig Brozefsky wrote: Might I suggest that someone involved with Debian PR contact Mr. Leibovitch and attempt to open a dialog with him in order to better educate him on why Debian has made various decisions, and why Debian is not anti-commercial by any means. If noone is available to do this, then I could attempt it (I imagine Adam DiCarlo just gasped in disbelief). Might I add that whoever opens said dialog should take some blunt foam-padded object and fwop Mr. Leibovitch senseless as part of the educational session? = -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Debian GNU/Linux developer PGP: E8D68481E3A8BB77 8EE22996C9445FBEThe Source Comes First! - The X Window System: The standard UNIX graphical environment. With Linux, this is usually XFree86 (http://www.xfree86.org). You may call it X, XFree, the X Window System, XF86, or a host of other things. Call it 'XWindows' and someone will smack you and you will have deserved it. pgpjn79HaPzfI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Mon, 17 May 1999, Joseph Carter wrote: On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:16:38PM -0700, Craig Brozefsky wrote: Might I suggest that someone involved with Debian PR contact Mr. Leibovitch and attempt to open a dialog with him in order to better educate him on why Debian has made various decisions, and why Debian is not anti-commercial by any means. If noone is available to do this, then I could attempt it (I imagine Adam DiCarlo just gasped in disbelief). Might I add that whoever opens said dialog should take some blunt foam-padded object and fwop Mr. Leibovitch senseless as part of the educational session? = I hereby officially propose that the education of Mister Leibovitch begins with a sound *THWAPPING* upside the head using a hard-copy of both the GNU Manifesto and the GNU GPL, and done in tandem by two very large and well muscled men and/or women? That's much more appropriate. :) -prj
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Mon, May 17, 1999 at 11:43:36PM -0400, Phillip R. Jaenke wrote: snip I hereby officially propose that the education of Mister Leibovitch begins with a sound *THWAPPING* upside the head using a hard-copy of both the GNU Manifesto and the GNU GPL, and done in tandem by two very large and well muscled men and/or women? That's much more appropriate. :) Officially seconded.. =:] Zephaniah E. Hull. -prj -- PGP EA5198D1-Zephaniah E. Hull [EMAIL PROTECTED]-GPG E65A7801 Keys available at http://whitestar.soark.net/~warp/public_keys. CCs of replies from mailing lists are encouraged. pgpRWf7lB4goP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
Hello, I am with the LXNY and other free software clubs in NY and we are 100% against certification, the sheer stupidity of evan's statement is all you really need to know. I personally had a really bad experience w/ Caldera after 3 years of preparing to become a channel partner. Below is a letter I sent out last week. I am presently trying to develop ultra lite linix with the TRINUX group though were are all being worked to death at our day jobs... deb is our fave so here I am :) I hope you enjoy the irony of this particular situation: ### Begin # Hi, I just had to share this with you all. Yesterday, two companies that I had been talking to and with whom I had been sharing design and market information, both of whom promised a partnership with CXN, my company... ...announced a deal to build a thinclient, remarkably similar to ThinMan, my desktop offering. The wording in their press releases is almost precisely lifted from an email that I sent to an executive of one of them. The two companies are Caldera and Phillips, the deal is with AOL to build the the AOL TV set top box. The email I sent was to Ransom Love at Caldera and my contact at Phillips (who stopped answering my calls) was Manjur Stanna. The irony of the matter is that it is based on the Cyrix MediaGX and National Semicondutors is selling Cyrix and Cyrix will orphan the chipset. The two companies are Caldera and Phillips, the deal is with AOL to build the the AOL TV set top box. The email I sent was to Ransom Love at Caldera and my contact at Phillips (who stopped answering my calls) was Manjur Stanna. The irony of the matter is that it is based on the Cyrix MediaGX and National Semicondutors is selling Cyrix and Cyrix will orphan the chipset. Other news: CXN is planning an operations consultancy with its present super contractor. Mucho mongers and others have expressed interest, you know who you are :) ### End # === John van Vlaanderen # #CXN, Inc. Contact: # #[EMAIL PROTECTED], www.thinman.com # #1 917 309 7379 (cell, voice mail) # # _ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:16:38PM -0700, Craig Brozefsky wrote: Debian, so far, has been very popular in academia, hobbyist and research circles, but doesn't appear to be a big player in the retail and commercial fields. Wow, I always thought that this is was Microsoft says about Linux in general. What a fool. Marcus -- `Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.' Debian http://www.debian.org finger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann GNUhttp://www.gnu.org master.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:16:38PM -0700, Craig Brozefsky wrote: Debian, so far, has been very popular in academia, hobbyist and research circles, but doesn't appear to be a big player in the retail and commercial fields. Well damn, I work for one of the US's largest insurance brokerage firms and we use Debian. Guess I should run out and pick up Red Hat, before the LPI police come knocking. Sure would hate to give up Debian's top-notch security, stability, and ease of maintenance though. Then again, we're commercial and not educational so we really don't need those qualities in a Linux distribution. Mark
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
sorry feel compelled to dive into the fray, but... rant On Tue, 18 May 1999, Mark Mealman wrote: On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:16:38PM -0700, Craig Brozefsky wrote: Debian, so far, has been very popular in academia, hobbyist and research circles, but doesn't appear to be a big player in the retail and commercial fields. Well damn, I work for one of the US's largest insurance brokerage firms and we use Debian. Guess I should run out and pick up Red Hat, before the LPI police come knocking. I'm guilty too! I guess I should just hand over my production frame-relay routers all over the US and in Sweden, Germany, Malaysia, and Brazil too. Let me just fill out a purchase order for 40 copies of RH at $50 apiece... Sure would hate to give up Debian's top-notch security, stability, and ease of maintenance though. Then again, we're commercial and not educational so we really don't need those qualities in a Linux distribution. Commercial people never need to worry about things like true hassle-free licensing, or being able to build a custom sendmail package in 10 minutes by grabbing the source package and adding their own configuration files (btw, thanks to Richard Nelson for a rock-stable package). And who wants to be able to upgrade with a single command line or without reboots? Oh yea, and who wants to use free software when you follow a single vendor down the yellow brick road until they have you right where they want you?!? /rant [EMAIL PROTECTED] | You don't get something for nothing, http://www.mancill.com | You can't have freedom for free. |(Peart)
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On 18 May 1999, Craig Brozefsky wrote: Mr. Leibovitch is the executive directory of The Linux Professional Institute, which is non-profit corporation attempting to provide standardized certification across all Linux platforms. Normally, such rhetoric as he spouts in this article (and a previous one which I have met Mr. Leib... personally at our local lug. For information he has a company that is involved in the distribution and support of Caldera/Red Hat. I suspect that his motives for trashing Debian are quite personal. -steve
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 06:44:53AM -0700, John van V. wrote: I personally had a really bad experience w/ Caldera after 3 years of preparing to become a channel partner. [.. bad experience snipped ..] What do you expect from a company that was kind enough to release a binary only linux with a modified sysvinit that refused to boot after 30 days, instead telling you to call and place your order for their professional product? Granted it had a very simple workaround, simply replace the altered sysvinit from the CD with the normal one after installation. Still, that they would do something like this is a slap in the face to everything we believe in. I think prj has one such cd from Caldera and I can confirm that I've seen one too. The person who had it wouldn't give it up unfortunately. They're saving it for the same reasons I want it--to show people just what kind of company Caldera really is. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Debian GNU/Linux developer PGP: E8D68481E3A8BB77 8EE22996C9445FBEThe Source Comes First! - _Anarchy_ Argh.. who's handing out the paper bags 8) pgpGvBEQJlG5W.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 08:22:27PM +0200, Marcus Brinkmann wrote: Debian, so far, has been very popular in academia, hobbyist and research circles, but doesn't appear to be a big player in the retail and commercial fields. Wow, I always thought that this is was Microsoft says about Linux in general. What a fool. He works for ZDnet, you're being redundant. -- Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]Debian GNU/Linux developer PGP: E8D68481E3A8BB77 8EE22996C9445FBEThe Source Comes First! - awkward anyone around? Flav no, we're all irregular polygons pgpou6DibCBPu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, 18 May 1999, tony mancill wrote: sorry feel compelled to dive into the fray, but... I gotta do it. If anyone's a geek in suit's clothing, I garauntee you it's me. And I find this funny, in a sick and twisted way. rant On Tue, 18 May 1999, Mark Mealman wrote: Well damn, I work for one of the US's largest insurance brokerage firms and we use Debian. Guess I should run out and pick up Red Hat, before the LPI police come knocking. I'm guilty too! I guess I should just hand over my production frame-relay routers all over the US and in Sweden, Germany, Malaysia, and Brazil too. Let me just fill out a purchase order for 40 copies of RH at $50 apiece... GodDAMN! And I just spent $8,000 on a single machine, running Debian, that's going to be handling all our mail, dns, website, NIS, SMB, and more! And my workstation! And the 20 TFTP servers! And the 45 rackmount hardware monitoring machines! Better start getting PO's for RedCrap at $80 apiece. (Not $50. $80 now.) Sure would hate to give up Debian's top-notch security, stability, and ease of maintenance though. Then again, we're commercial and not educational so we really don't need those qualities in a Linux distribution. Commercial people never need to worry about things like true hassle-free licensing, or being able to build a custom sendmail package in 10 minutes by grabbing the source package and adding their own configuration files (btw, thanks to Richard Nelson for a rock-stable package). And who wants to be able to upgrade with a single command line or without reboots? Oh, yeah. I just love it. I want to run all our unix machines (some 75 currently, and we're not even started) like we do the necessary NT machines. Move the mouse, reboot. Upgrade some dinky thing, reboot. Reinstall mouse drivers, reboot. Write to disk, reboot, and restore from backups. Yep. I LOVE that. Oh yea, and who wants to use free software when you follow a single vendor down the yellow brick road until they have you right where they want you?!? /rant /rant RedCrap already has everyone where they want them; in their back pocket, filling their wallet more and more everyday. Alongside VA Research. -prj
Re: evan leibovitch and the LPI certification tests
On Tue, 18 May 1999, Joseph Carter wrote: I think prj has one such cd from Caldera and I can confirm that I've seen one too. The person who had it wouldn't give it up unfortunately. They're saving it for the same reasons I want it--to show people just what kind of company Caldera really is. I do have one such CD. That's what cost Caldera every shred of my respect. I will GLEEFULLY burn fucking copy after copy for people who want it to see it. It's ANCIENT, but it's basically the same thing they're sending out day after day now as demo CDs. It's legal. 30 day preview license, redistributable. May Caldera rot in hell beside RedCrap and VA Research, who won't give me a system *WITHOUT* RedCrap. -prj
