Re: Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:49:56 +1000, you wrote: another method is to use apt's pinning features where you can tell it to upgrade certain packages from one distribution (e.g. unstable) and the rest from another (e.g. stable). Could you post an /etc/apt/sources.list which demonstrates this option, please? (for instance, how to use latest postfix packages whilest keeping all the rest of packages from woody). TIA. Saludos, --Roman -- PGP Fingerprint: 09BB EFCD 21ED 4E79 25FB 29E1 E47F 8A7D EAD5 6742 [Key ID: 0xEAD56742. Available at KeyServ] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
On Sat, Oct 18, 2003 at 02:52:11AM +0200, Roman Medina wrote: On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:49:56 +1000, you wrote: another method is to use apt's pinning features where you can tell it to upgrade certain packages from one distribution (e.g. unstable) and the rest from another (e.g. stable). Could you post an /etc/apt/sources.list which demonstrates this option, please? (for instance, how to use latest postfix packages whilest keeping all the rest of packages from woody). TIA. sorry, i've never done it. i just know that it's possible. craig -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: manual update of apt database (was Best way to update perl on Woody Stable?)
On Fri, Oct 10, 2003 at 12:08:08AM -0500, Rod Rodolico wrote: Correct, dpkg and apt are useful tools. All tools have strengths and weaknesses. I love perl, and can not imagine living without it. But, I doubt I'll use it to create a database engine. So, I use the tool best for a given task. In 90% of my tasks, dselect works just fine. For the other 10%, I download source and install. so, why not either: a) download the debianised source (if available) and build a package OR b) spend an extra 10-20 minutes creating the debian/rules files etc and building a local package rather than just make make install. that gives you the same custom-compiled software, but managed by dpkg. I started rolling my own around 10 years ago using Slackware. I just don't have the time any more. yes, so did i. i don't have the time either. that's why i learnt how to use the debian packaging tools - they save me a lot of time and wasted/duplicated effort, they mostly eliminate the hassle of dealing with cruft (i.e. local stuff that isn't managed by the packaging system), and generally make my job a lot easier. i don't bother packaging every individual script i write (/usr/local/[s]bin/ is good enough for them), but i do package anything more complicated than a set of 1-3 little scripts. by taking the time to package anything i download and compile, i get to manage and upgrade it with dpkg, and i have a binary package which i can install on as many of my servers as i needi.e. compile once, install many :) of course, i use my fastest/least-loaded current machine to build packages. then distribute them with scp. if the package is of general use (and if i've done a good enough job making the config/install generic enough rather than specific to my needs) then i upload it to debian and it becomes part of the distribution. However, to get the exact system I want, rolling your own is the only solution. I have just decided that almost right is close enough for me if I can do a full server install as rapidly as I can using Debian and its packages tools. it's not an either/or question. building packages doesn't prevent you from making whatever custom changes you need to a program when you compile it. But, there are always things I can not do because using any tool limits you to the tasks that tool is designed to accomplish. i think that the limitations you imagine are more in your understanding of the tool, than in the tool itself. you can do anything in a package that you can do in a Makefile, or a shell script or a perl script (or any other script/program for that matter). your best bet is to either: 1. upgrade completely to 'testing' or 'unstable'. this is nowhere Do not do this on a production box without testing first. of course. anyone using 'unstable' on a production server *SHOULD* test all upgrades on unimportant machine(s) first. the same kind of testing should be done when compiling and installing software locally, too. overall, there is less work and less time in running unstable. 2. upgrade partially to unstable. simplest way is to temporarily This could work. It is also a PITA because if you screw up, there is no way I am aware of to back out of a version and go to a previous one (I'd love to proven wrong here). keep a copy of the old packageeither from your installation CD, or by using dpkg-repack just before you upgrade the package. revert by installing the old package with 'dpkg -i'. 3. (if you have a lot of time on your hands) download the debianised source for perl 5.8 from unstable and recompile it on your woody system. do the same for any module packages that you need. i.e. backport the new perl to the old debian. a lot of people recommend this method. personally, i find it to be far too time consuming, for very little benefit. far easier (and much better tested) to just run unstable. Back to my original question. At this point, how do you tell apt that the package is installed. huh? with this method, you build a package and install it with dpkg. that's why i said download the debianised source it's not just make all make install, you build a package (in most cases, that's as simple as running dpkg-buildpackage rather than make) and then you install the package when it is built, same as any other package. so, you end up with a version of the package (same as in 'sid'), compiled with the woody compiler and linked against the woody libraries. for simple cases, i.e. single packages, or when you just want to build a package with different compile-time options, this is the right thing to do. for complex cases, e.g. when there are dozens or hundreds of co-dependant packages, it is simpler and safer to just upgrade to unstable. IMO, perl is one of these complex cases - not so much because of perl itself but because of all the module packages. craig -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
Re: manual update of apt database (was Best way to update perl on Woody Stable?)
Rod Rodolico wrote: or 3. (if you have a lot of time on your hands) download the debianised source for perl 5.8 from unstable and recompile it on your woody system. do the same for any module packages that you need. i.e. backport the new perl to the old debian. a lot of people recommend this method. personally, i find it to be far too time consuming, for very little benefit. far easier (and much better tested) to just run unstable. Back to my original question. At this point, how do you tell apt that the package is installed. If i'm understanding the question correctly, you would simply do: # echo perl hold | dpkg --set-selections (and repeat the command for all the specific packages (deb files) you've built/installed) good luck, ~c -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: manual update of apt database (was Best way to update perl on Woody Stable?)
other 10%, I download source and install. So, is there a way to manually update the apt database to tell it a package is installed. The reason I use Debian is because, for most of my Back to my original question. At this point, how do you tell apt that the package is installed. I assume I can find out by RTFM'ing, but since you suggested it, maybe you know. Rod The equivs deb. Nice little piece. I use it for telling Deb that my Sun 1.4 JDK Provides: java-compiler, java-virtual-machine, java2-runtime, java2-compiler. This makes all the java stuff that is required by the various debs go away. You can also use it to setup dependancy info. So if you know all the debs you need for x installation. Set it up, install and walk away. Come back and your server is installed. Course, for that I tend to prefer: $: dpkg --set-selections deb.txt dpkg --pending -i The only drag is that I don't run a local repository, so the package, in my case, lancejvm is listed as obsolete/local so you have to remember not to uninstall it. HTH. -- Lance Levsen, Catprint Computing Linux Systems and programming Ph:(306)477-3166 Fx:(306)477-3166 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
3. (if you have a lot of time on your hands) download the debianised source for perl 5.8 from unstable and recompile it on your woody system. do the same for any module packages that you need. i.e. backport the new perl to the old debian. a lot of people recommend this method. personally, i find it to be far too time consuming, for very little benefit. far easier (and much better tested) to just run unstable. FWIW, this is the method I generally use and don't find it to be that hard. On the other hand, I recently tried this with perl 5.8.x from unstable (probably about two weeks ago) and it would not build under woody - it kept failing one of its test cases and bombing out. I'd say about 50-75% of packages backport easily. The rest can be more involved. In the case of perl two weeks ago, I didn't absolutely need it so I ended up sticking with the woody version. I did look at the backports collections and did not see a backport around anywhere. Take care, Dale -- Dale E. Martin, Clifton Labs, Inc. Senior Computer Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cliftonlabs.com pgp key available -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
We are back to needing to upgrade perl on one of our mail servers. The version perl-5.8.1.tar.gz is being called for one our apps needed. I am sure I am not the first to run into this on production servers and wondered what approach other folks take ? Thanks, Dee -- W.D.McKinney (Dee) | Affordable E-Mail and Internet Solutions Alaska Wireless Systems | for Schools, Libraries, Clinics Business' http://www.akwireless.net | Call 1-907-349-4308 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
You could install the CPAN module on your current system, then use it to update Perl. CAVEAT: CPAN and Debian have, in the past, placed Perl in two separate locations. When I did this before, I did have a problem configuring Perl correctly afterwards. It (CPAN) is mainly designed, from what I saw, to update a Standard perl installation, standard being whatever CPAN (the organization) says it is (which is pretty standard). Other than that, I don't know. Look at http://cpan.org/ports/index.html for one thing. But, I'm not sure if any of these will break a Debian install. Rod We are back to needing to upgrade perl on one of our mail servers. The version perl-5.8.1.tar.gz is being called for one our apps needed. I am sure I am not the first to run into this on production servers and wondered what approach other folks take ? Thanks, Dee -- W.D.McKinney (Dee)| Affordable E-Mail and Internet Solutions Alaska Wireless Systems | for Schools, Libraries, Clinics Business' http://www.akwireless.net | Call 1-907-349-4308 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Missiles of ligneous or osteal consistency have the potential of fracturing osseous structure, but appellations will eternally remain innocuous. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 16:14, Rod Rodolico wrote: You could install the CPAN module on your current system, then use it to update Perl. CAVEAT: CPAN and Debian have, in the past, placed Perl in two separate locations. When I did this before, I did have a problem configuring Perl correctly afterwards. It (CPAN) is mainly designed, from what I saw, to update a Standard perl installation, standard being whatever CPAN (the organization) says it is (which is pretty standard). Other than that, I don't know. Look at http://cpan.org/ports/index.html for one thing. But, I'm not sure if any of these will break a Debian install. Rod Thanks Rod. I tried that awhile ago today and it puked. shell-init: could not get current directory: getcwd: cannot access parent directories: No such file or directory Everything is up to date. Type '/usr/bin/make test' to run test suite. /usr/bin/make -- OK Running make test Couldn't chdir to /root/.cpan/build/perl-5.8.1 at /usr/share/perl/5.6.1/CPAN.pm line 5480 I have a friend is one the best perl guys around so I'll ask him about it, but he doesn't like Debian and rolls his own distro. Dee -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
Is there a way to tell apt (dselect) you have certain packages installed? If so, it would make sense to just trash the Debian perl install and install it all from source. I agree with your Perl guru -- roll your own is the best way to go. I just don't have the time. I still install some packages (webmin, usermin, squirrelmail) myself, because other packages are not dependant on them. But I have no idea how to tell apt that, yes, I already have Perl installed so you don't have to mess with it. From the log you sent, looks like the cwd disappeared out from under you, so of course it could not get the parents or anything. What dir were you in when you executed it? Did the directory /root/.cpan exist? I had problems, but those were not the ones I had. Rod On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 16:14, Rod Rodolico wrote: You could install the CPAN module on your current system, then use it to update Perl. CAVEAT: CPAN and Debian have, in the past, placed Perl in two separate locations. When I did this before, I did have a problem configuring Perl correctly afterwards. It (CPAN) is mainly designed, from what I saw, to update a Standard perl installation, standard being whatever CPAN (the organization) says it is (which is pretty standard). Other than that, I don't know. Look at http://cpan.org/ports/index.html for one thing. But, I'm not sure if any of these will break a Debian install. Rod Thanks Rod. I tried that awhile ago today and it puked. shell-init: could not get current directory: getcwd: cannot access parent directories: No such file or directory Everything is up to date. Type '/usr/bin/make test' to run test suite. /usr/bin/make -- OK Running make test Couldn't chdir to /root/.cpan/build/perl-5.8.1 at /usr/share/perl/5.6.1/CPAN.pm line 5480 I have a friend is one the best perl guys around so I'll ask him about it, but he doesn't like Debian and rolls his own distro. Dee -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Missiles of ligneous or osteal consistency have the potential of fracturing osseous structure, but appellations will eternally remain innocuous. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 17:40, Rod Rodolico wrote: Is there a way to tell apt (dselect) you have certain packages installed? If so, it would make sense to just trash the Debian perl install and install it all from source. I agree with your Perl guru -- roll your own is the best way to go. I just don't have the time. I still install some packages (webmin, usermin, squirrelmail) myself, because other packages are not dependant on them. But I have no idea how to tell apt that, yes, I already have Perl installed so you don't have to mess with it. From the log you sent, looks like the cwd disappeared out from under you, so of course it could not get the parents or anything. What dir were you in when you executed it? Did the directory /root/.cpan exist? I had problems, but those were not the ones I had. Rod Hi, Yes I did use /root # perl -MCPAN -e shell to invoke the connection. I'll break some installed apps if de-install. So I amy have to re-install everything again :-) Dee On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 16:14, Rod Rodolico wrote: You could install the CPAN module on your current system, then use it to update Perl. CAVEAT: CPAN and Debian have, in the past, placed Perl in two separate locations. When I did this before, I did have a problem configuring Perl correctly afterwards. It (CPAN) is mainly designed, from what I saw, to update a Standard perl installation, standard being whatever CPAN (the organization) says it is (which is pretty standard). Other than that, I don't know. Look at http://cpan.org/ports/index.html for one thing. But, I'm not sure if any of these will break a Debian install. Rod Thanks Rod. I tried that awhile ago today and it puked. shell-init: could not get current directory: getcwd: cannot access parent directories: No such file or directory Everything is up to date. Type '/usr/bin/make test' to run test suite. /usr/bin/make -- OK Running make test Couldn't chdir to /root/.cpan/build/perl-5.8.1 at /usr/share/perl/5.6.1/CPAN.pm line 5480 I have a friend is one the best perl guys around so I'll ask him about it, but he doesn't like Debian and rolls his own distro. Dee -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- W.D.McKinney (Dee) | Affordable E-Mail and Internet Solutions Alaska Wireless Systems | for Schools, Libraries, Clinics Business' http://www.akwireless.net | Call 1-907-349-4308 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best way to update perl on Woody Stable ?
this: On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:40:23PM -0500, Rod Rodolico wrote: Is there a way to tell apt (dselect) you have certain packages installed? If so, it would make sense to just trash the Debian perl install and install it all from source. I agree with your Perl guru -- roll your own is the best way to go. and this: On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 16:14, Rod Rodolico wrote: You could install the CPAN module on your current system, then use it to update Perl. are seriously bad advice. i find it difficult to believe that it is being given on a debian mailing list. package managers (like dpkg and apt) are not annoyances to be worked around, they are useful tools that make systems administration much easier. they exist for a reason, and that reason is that managing software installation and upgrades without decent tools is a serious PITA. why bother to even use a package-based distribution like debian if you're going to throw out one of the main reasons for doing so? rolling your own (as opposed to recompiling a package locally) is not a particularly good solution even in the best of circumstances, and is a spectactularly bad solution for perl, especially if you have any need to use the many debian perl module packages. debian's directory layout is different to the default perl directory layout. your best bet is to either: 1. upgrade completely to 'testing' or 'unstable'. this is nowhere near as scary or dangerous as the names imply. the packages in these pre-release distributions are generally as bug-ridden and as bug-free as packages in the release distribution. or 2. upgrade partially to unstable. simplest way is to temporarily configure /etc/apt/sources.list to use unstable rather than stable and then apt-get install perl related packages. this will bring in a lot of other upgraded packages too (e.g. libc6). another method is to use apt's pinning features where you can tell it to upgrade certain packages from one distribution (e.g. unstable) and the rest from another (e.g. stable). NOTE: this partial upgrade is likely to be buggier and less reliable than a complete upgrade to 'unstable' because the other packages you have installed were not compiled against the new libs or with the latest compiler and may have incompatibilities that no-one else has spotted. or 3. (if you have a lot of time on your hands) download the debianised source for perl 5.8 from unstable and recompile it on your woody system. do the same for any module packages that you need. i.e. backport the new perl to the old debian. a lot of people recommend this method. personally, i find it to be far too time consuming, for very little benefit. far easier (and much better tested) to just run unstable. or 4. hunt for one of the backport repositories where people have done 3. above and made their work available to others. the quality of work here may or may not be as high as you would expect from debian packages. YMMV. craig ps: dh-make-perl is an excellent package for quickly making debian packages from CPAN modules. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
manual update of apt database (was Best way to update perl on Woody Stable?)
Changed the subject of this because it looks like a religious discussion coming up. this: On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:40:23PM -0500, Rod Rodolico wrote: Is there a way to tell apt (dselect) you have certain packages installed? If so, it would make sense to just trash the Debian perl install and install it all from source. I agree with your Perl guru -- roll your own is the best way to go. and this: On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 16:14, Rod Rodolico wrote: You could install the CPAN module on your current system, then use it to update Perl. are seriously bad advice. i find it difficult to believe that it is being given on a debian mailing list. package managers (like dpkg and apt) are not annoyances to be worked around, they are useful tools that make systems administration much easier. they exist for a reason, and that reason is that managing software installation and upgrades without decent tools is a serious PITA. why bother to even use a package-based distribution like debian if you're going to throw out one of the main reasons for doing so? Correct, dpkg and apt are useful tools. All tools have strengths and weaknesses. I love perl, and can not imagine living without it. But, I doubt I'll use it to create a database engine. So, I use the tool best for a given task. In 90% of my tasks, dselect works just fine. For the other 10%, I download source and install. So, is there a way to manually update the apt database to tell it a package is installed. The reason I use Debian is because, for most of my needs, it is a perfect fit. So, it saves me time. But, for the other 10%, I must actually get my hands dirty and do what needs to be done. In this case, the Perl he needs is not available in backports.org (or any other place I checked). So some other solution is required. rolling your own (as opposed to recompiling a package locally) is not a particularly good solution even in the best of circumstances, and is a spectactularly bad solution for perl, especially if you have any need to use the many debian perl module packages. debian's directory layout is different to the default perl directory layout. Sorry, I disagree. I started rolling my own around 10 years ago using Slackware. I just don't have the time any more. However, to get the exact system I want, rolling your own is the only solution. I have just decided that almost right is close enough for me if I can do a full server install as rapidly as I can using Debian and its packages tools. But, there are always things I can not do because using any tool limits you to the tasks that tool is designed to accomplish. your best bet is to either: 1. upgrade completely to 'testing' or 'unstable'. this is nowhere near as scary or dangerous as the names imply. the packages in these pre-release distributions are generally as bug-ridden and as bug-free as packages in the release distribution. Do not do this on a production box without testing first. Bad advice. I have used testing for production boxes for the past two years, and they have worked flawlessly. Two months ago, I upgraded my test box, and found that the testing release update broke two of the web sites I was hosting. Testing is good, it is nice, and it makes RH and especially Windoze look like alpha releases. But, be prepared for it to break something, generally when it is most inconvenient. Also, security updates are slow. I still use testing on some servers, but it is not a quick fix to an I need this package now problem. It could solve this problem simply to create two or three others. or 2. upgrade partially to unstable. simplest way is to temporarily configure /etc/apt/sources.list to use unstable rather than stable and then apt-get install perl related packages. this will bring in a lot of other upgraded packages too (e.g. libc6). This could work. It is also a PITA because if you screw up, there is no way I am aware of to back out of a version and go to a previous one (I'd love to proven wrong here). So, in one case I know of, if you install perl, and dselect wants to update perl-magic also, and you allow it to, any code (in current testing) that relies on perl-magic will be broken, possibly for a while since that package has been broken in testing for a month or so now (that I know of). another method is to use apt's pinning features where you can tell it to upgrade certain packages from one distribution (e.g. unstable) and the rest from another (e.g. stable). NOTE: this partial upgrade is likely to be buggier and less reliable than a complete upgrade to 'unstable' because the other packages you have installed were not compiled against the new libs or with the latest compiler and may have incompatibilities that no-one else has spotted. Have never used this function, so have no opinion or 3. (if you have a lot of time on your hands) download the debianised source for
