Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> I'm a sysadmin in a small ISP here in Argentina, and I'm not using > osirusoft rbl, why? fibertel. What's that? A big cable-ISP (in .ar, obviously) > who gives BOTH dinamic and static IP address for their customers, the > mails coming from the static one are (mostly) legit mails from real and > well configured mail servers, OTOH the mails coming from dinamic > addresses are (mostly) spam. The IPs are all (aparently) mixed so you > can't blacklist the entire block, if I do (as osirusoft does) the > tsunami of complaints goes directly to my boss, and guess who is the bad > guy? > Is the mixed IP addresses issue osirusoft blame? I don't think so. You mean it is completely mixed (dynamic and static)? As in (for example only) 222.111.222.111 could be dynamic, and 222.111.222.112 could be static? That would actually be poor network planning... how on earth could they administrate that? Oh well.. suppose they've found some way to do it. >From what I've seen, most ISPs have their "personal" (dynamic) dialups/adsl/broadband/whatever in a certain range (eg. 222.111.*.*), and then their "business" (static IP) clients in a different range. So IF an RBL cared about receiving legit email, they would take a quick moment and only block the dynamic IP pool, rather than the whole ISP, because as you said it is far less often that a static IP is used to send spam (because it is much easier to track down the spammer and block his/her IP). > Another example: infomail.infovia.com.ar, it is listed as an open relay > in ORDB.org (well done), but I had to manually whitelist in my access > file because they are one of the "big guys" and don't bother to > configure the mail servers right... Well... hey... they should be listed then. It is also easy to get out of ORDB (unlike Osirusoft)... just secure the mail server, and click on "retest" on ordb.org's website. Then I think a test is automatically performed in 24 or 48 hours... or something around that... and if the server is now found to be secure, it is automatically removed from the ordb.org RBL! No need to deal with abusive people or anything. We had a client that was listed there, because right when he was installing/upgrading his server, some US spammer found his server and used it to send spam (the damn server was only up for like 6 hours, and already a US spammer found it!). So we got an email... and by then the client had already secured the server. So we went to the ORDB website, clicked "retest", and about 3 days later all was good. Thats the good thing about using lists that are clear and transparent... usually have a way to get off the list directly from their webpage, without needing to go into chatrooms, newsgroups, etc. and arguing with abusive people. > If, for example, AOL starts using osirusoft/orbl, they surely start > worrying about that. Until that moment arrives I have to indirectly > support them. As far as I know, AOL and many of the big ISPs actually do run their own mini internal RBL. They certainly aren't as far reaching as those of ordb, osirusoft, spews, and others, but they do run mini-rbls. I think they run them mainly to prevent against DoS attacks or rogue mail servers that repeatedly bang against their servers. I've seen a Yahoo Mail server reject mail because it was sending mails too fast.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
Jason, I'm a sysadmin in a small ISP here in Argentina, and I'm not using osirusoft rbl, why? fibertel. What's that? A big cable-ISP (in .ar, obviously) who gives BOTH dinamic and static IP address for their customers, the mails coming from the static one are (mostly) legit mails from real and well configured mail servers, OTOH the mails coming from dinamic addresses are (mostly) spam. The IPs are all (aparently) mixed so you can't blacklist the entire block, if I do (as osirusoft does) the tsunami of complaints goes directly to my boss, and guess who is the bad guy? Is the mixed IP addresses issue osirusoft blame? I don't think so. Another example: infomail.infovia.com.ar, it is listed as an open relay in ORDB.org (well done), but I had to manually whitelist in my access file because they are one of the "big guys" and don't bother to configure the mail servers right... On both cases I've sent tons of mails to postmaster/root/abuse/info... What is my point? Strength. We don't have the enough human resources (We are just 6 for sysadmin/helpdesk/ php programming/cisco config/html design) and customer base to make them change their policy. If, for example, AOL starts using osirusoft/orbl, they surely start worrying about that. Until that moment arrives I have to indirectly support them. -- Regards, Germán Gutiérrez
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 10:52:45AM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > he claims that it's OK for chinese sysadmins to ignore spam > > complaints because they don't know english and don't understand the > > complaint. he does read english and can act as an interpreter for > > them. if he really cared about resolving the issue, he'd do > > something productive about it rather than just whinge to people who > > have nothing to do with the listing. > > Never did I say "it is okay for chinese sysadmins to ignore spam > complaints". Please find where I said that. Can't find it? Yeah... > because I didn't say it. i quote from Message-ID <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> : Yes... the engineers know english (the ones that configure the Cisco : routers and stuff) but the lower level tech support and stuff that have : to handle the "day to day" things... their english definately ain't hot. : The complaints normally go to them first... and if they don't understand : it properly, most time they'll put it in the "read it on 10 years time" : folder, or delete it straight out. these are YOUR words attempting to justify why some asian ISPs ignore spam complaints. > What I gave is an explanation why it takes longer for chinese admins > to take action. actually, you were justifying *no action*, not explaining why action takes longer. > They got to find an english-language admin to go and process the > reports. And with so many USA/Western spammers taking advantage of the > language barrier, the english-language admin(s) have a hard time > keeping up with it all. there's also the issue of both US spammers and asian ISPs taking advantage of currency exchange rates. they both win - it's cheap for the US spammer and it's profitable for the asian ISP (especially if only a small percentage of their users actually care about being able to communicate with foreigners). in any case, it really doesn't matter whether they understand english or not. if they're an open relay or a spamhaus then they deserve to be listed. end of story. lots of sites both inside and outside of asia get listed even when they don't understand what's going on or why they've been listed, cluelessness is rife regardless of any language barriers. they either learn to fix their problem or they stay listed. > > he does read english and can act as an interpreter for them. > > I'm suppose to go around all the Asian ISPs are interpret their spam > complaints? no, just the ones you care about. your ISP, for instance. you know they have a problem, it affects you personally so why don't you try to help them solve it? is it, perhaps, because they don't care? or perhaps because they make a good profit in US dollars from US spammers wanting to use their mail relay? or is it just because you prefer whinging to taking useful action? if your ISP refuses to do anything about their spam problem, then find yourself another ISP, same as any other user on any continent who finds that their ISP is a spamhaus. > > think about it. how can an RBL possibly have hidden records? every > > record in an RBL is published via DNS, otherwise it doesn't work. > > Easy. If an RBL (for example, ORDB.org) says it only blocks open > relays, then it secretly goes and blocks all of an ISP... then THAT is > a hidden record. > > Same goes for Osirusoft... if it says it is a "combined" list of other > RBLs... then it secretly runs it's own private blacklist in the > background without listing it out, then that is not good. osirusoft doesn't claim to be JUST a "combined list of other RBLs". it *includes* some other RBLs (such as SPEWS), but it is not limited to those and has never claimed to be. osirusoft's policies are documented at http://relays.osirusoft.com/faq.html and at http://relays.osirusoft.com/ read it and quit whining. > > i suggest you read the information on the relays.osirusoft.com web > > site before coming to any conclusion. it's far more accurate and > > reliable than the rantings of one delusional paranoid. > > Yes, please tell us ALL the part on the website where it says there is > a private blacklist being run by Joe Jared on the relays.osirsuft.com > RBL. Find it. i doubt if he would use such colourful and emotive language to describe his own site. he, after all, is not suffering from your paranoid delusions and doesn't have any motive to slander or lie about himself. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > I guess debian-isp is not a good forum for a discussion about internals > of RBL databases. One point, which could be useful for Debian ISPs here > is that Osirusoft's database uses unfair methods to fight spam > and blocks whole networks without proper explanation. The decision > to use that database or not is in the hands of this list's subscribers. > As you said... I am not forcing (nor CAN i force) people to use a particular RBL. Everyone has the freedom to choose. But my point is: I am exposing and bringing to light something that I think and feel is not right, so that other admins can make an informed decision as to what they want to do. And I think that with the information that has been revealed... that Osirusoft is running it's own secret private blacklist... some admins may decide AGAINST using Osirusoft's RBL, and select another RBL with an open policy, transparent and clear listing and removal process, and one that sticks to what it says. And I also provided an alternative solution to those currently using Osirusoft's RBL and may want to try a different RBL...there is a big list of RBLs at http://www.declude.com/JunkMail/Support/ip4r.htm . They all have comments and information by the author. I sincerely hope that some admins are taking into consideration the new information I've provided, and are at least considering testing another RBL to replace Osirusoft.com I only said I choose ordb.org because they look professional every open relay and IP that is tested has an evidence file... it clearly shows that it relays, the time and date that it relayed, and when it is scheduled for a re-test, so it can be removed if it is fixed. There is no "secret" adding of netblocks... no "faking" things because all IPs have an example spam and clear listing/delisting/re-testing date. I choose Spamcop.net because of the same reason... each IP that is added to the RBL has an evidence file and example spam. You can actually see what spam was sent from each IP, so there is no "secretly adding" IPs because someone doesn't like an ISP or is biased. Also, Spamcop.net is run by a number of people and the community, and they even have their own newsgroup at news.spamcop.net, which is a FRIENDLY place to be (go take a look for yourself). If there is a problem with a listing, you can post a message, and the many moderators there will take a look and fix things for you. There are other lists like the above ones... we just started using visi.com's RBL, again because they list an IP only when it really sends spam... and after 60 days it is removed, because it may be fixed already. IPs can also be removed by the admins if they found their IP listed. None of the lists we use block large netblocks of IPs... because there is just too much chance for good people to be blocked within the large netblock. Have a look... nearly all the problems concerning RBLs are centered around the ones that block large netblocks, countries, and so on. Very rarely are the problems focused on the RBLs that are more conservative. Anyway, I always STRONGLY suggest that before you start using an RBL, that you read up on what policies they have, how open and transparent they are, and all that. Go to the RBL's webpage, and see the information for yourself (http://www.declude.com/JunkMail/Support/ip4r.htm has links to all the RBL's webpages).
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > he claims that it's OK for chinese sysadmins to ignore spam complaints > because they don't know english and don't understand the complaint. he > does read english and can act as an interpreter for them. if he really > cared about resolving the issue, he'd do something productive about it > rather than just whinge to people who have nothing to do with the > listing. Never did I say "it is okay for chinese sysadmins to ignore spam complaints". Please find where I said that. Can't find it? Yeah... because I didn't say it. What I gave is an explanation why it takes longer for chinese admins to take action. They got to find an english-language admin to go and process the reports. And with so many USA/Western spammers taking advantage of the language barrier, the english-language admin(s) have a hard time keeping up with it all. > he > does read english and can act as an interpreter for them. I'm suppose to go around all the Asian ISPs are interpret their spam complaints? Riiight. As soon as you give reasonable resolutions, comments like this only make you sound foolish, not to just me but others. Come up with DOABLE solutions, please. > rather than just whinge to people who have nothing to do with the > listing. An RBL is only as useful and effective as the people using it. If no one uses it, it isn't effective, is it? An who better to talk to than the Sysadmins and others on Debian-ISP and others? Presumably most of us here have some control over the servers we administrate and the policies and RBLs we use. > > > IF This guy is indeed internally blocking, for personal reasons, a > > list that is community supported (in the sense that the community > > trusts it), then Lim's accusation is valid and serius i think. > > Lim's accusation is not valid. > > while it's only a single data point, i know from my own users that > osirusoft does not block all mail servers in asia. i work for an ISP in > Victoria, Australia where we have a large Asian immigrant population. a > large percentage of our user base is Asian, and they regularly > correspond with family and conduct business via email to and from > various countries in Asia. they rarely complain about blocked mail, i > get many times more complaints from users about telstra's bigpond or > ozemail's mail servers being blocked than i get about asian mail servers > being blocked. Did I say "ALL OF ASIA" anywhere? I said a large CHUNK of HK. And I said he was liberal in blocking Asia as opposed to blocking the USA. Again... as Mr. Sochacki said, you don't read what others say. You twist what others say for your own purposes. > > I mean, there should be no "hidden" records of a list like this one, > > they should all be open. Otherwise its like a trojan horse to put ppl > > out of business. > > there are no "hidden" records. you've been sucked in by Lim's emotive > language. > > think about it. how can an RBL possibly have hidden records? every > record in an RBL is published via DNS, otherwise it doesn't work. Easy. If an RBL (for example, ORDB.org) says it only blocks open relays, then it secretly goes and blocks all of an ISP... then THAT is a hidden record. Same goes for Osirusoft... if it says it is a "combined" list of other RBLs... then it secretly runs it's own private blacklist in the background without listing it out, then that is not good. It almost seems as if you prefer Microsoft's methods of security/protection, rather than Linux's "open source" and "transparency" method. > > > Someone actually suggested blocking all of Asia to which every single > > member objected. Cant do that, ONE lost mail directed to us by a lost > > mexican newbie living in Hong Kong is reason enough to not block this > > way. > > outside of jason lim's paranoid fantasies, nobody is actually blocking > all of asia. > Again, where did I say "ALL" of Asia? Oh... and there ARE quite a number of RBLs blocking nearly ALL of Asia. xslerward, BLARS... and all those new lists that block based on Country/region. But I never said Osirusoft/Joe Jared is blocking all of Asia... just large chunks of it, as in this case. > > So actually, being told that an important, widely accepted tool as > > osiru is being secretly controled and changed by one guy is not a hapy > > thought. I will object to its use if the guys at the LUG propose it as > > an option to our spam problem. > > i suggest you read the information on the relays.osirusoft.com web site > before coming to any conclusion. it's far more accurate and reliable > than the rantings of one delusional paranoid. Yes, please tell us ALL the part on the website where it says there is a private blacklist being run by Joe Jared on the relays.osirsuft.com RBL. Find it.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > he claims that it's OK for chinese sysadmins to ignore spam complaints > because they don't know english and don't understand the complaint. he > does read english and can act as an interpreter for them. if he really > cared about resolving the issue, he'd do something productive about it > rather than just whinge to people who have nothing to do with the > listing. Never did I say "it is okay for chinese sysadmins to ignore spam complaints". Please find where I said that. Can't find it? Yeah... because I didn't say it. What I gave is an explanation why it takes longer for chinese admins to take action. They got to find an english-language admin to go and process the reports. And with so many USA/Western spammers taking advantage of the language barrier, the english-language admin(s) have a hard time keeping up with it all. > he > does read english and can act as an interpreter for them. I'm suppose to go around all the Asian ISPs are interpret their spam complaints? Riiight. As soon as you give reasonable resolutions, comments like this only make you sound foolish, not to just me but others. Come up with DOABLE solutions, please. > rather than just whinge to people who have nothing to do with the > listing. An RBL is only as useful and effective as the people using it. If no one uses it, it isn't effective, is it? An who better to talk to than the Sysadmins and others on Debian-ISP and others? Presumably most of us here have some control over the servers we administrate and the policies and RBLs we use. > > > IF This guy is indeed internally blocking, for personal reasons, a > > list that is community supported (in the sense that the community > > trusts it), then Lim's accusation is valid and serius i think. > > Lim's accusation is not valid. > > while it's only a single data point, i know from my own users that > osirusoft does not block all mail servers in asia. i work for an ISP in > Victoria, Australia where we have a large Asian immigrant population. a > large percentage of our user base is Asian, and they regularly > correspond with family and conduct business via email to and from > various countries in Asia. they rarely complain about blocked mail, i > get many times more complaints from users about telstra's bigpond or > ozemail's mail servers being blocked than i get about asian mail servers > being blocked. Did I say "ALL OF ASIA" anywhere? I said a large CHUNK of HK. And I said he was liberal in blocking Asia as opposed to blocking the USA. Again... as Mr. Sochacki said, you don't read what others say. You twist what others say for your own purposes. > > I mean, there should be no "hidden" records of a list like this one, > > they should all be open. Otherwise its like a trojan horse to put ppl > > out of business. > > there are no "hidden" records. you've been sucked in by Lim's emotive > language. > > think about it. how can an RBL possibly have hidden records? every > record in an RBL is published via DNS, otherwise it doesn't work. Easy. If an RBL (for example, ORDB.org) says it only blocks open relays, then it secretly goes and blocks all of an ISP... then THAT is a hidden record. Same goes for Osirusoft... if it says it is a "combined" list of other RBLs... then it secretly runs it's own private blacklist in the background without listing it out, then that is not good. It almost seems as if you prefer Microsoft's methods of security/protection, rather than Linux's "open source" and "transparency" method. > > > Someone actually suggested blocking all of Asia to which every single > > member objected. Cant do that, ONE lost mail directed to us by a lost > > mexican newbie living in Hong Kong is reason enough to not block this > > way. > > outside of jason lim's paranoid fantasies, nobody is actually blocking > all of asia. > Again, where did I say "ALL" of Asia? Oh... and there ARE quite a number of RBLs blocking nearly ALL of Asia. xslerward, BLARS... and all those new lists that block based on Country/region. But I never said Osirusoft/Joe Jared is blocking all of Asia... just large chunks of it, as in this case. > > So actually, being told that an important, widely accepted tool as > > osiru is being secretly controled and changed by one guy is not a hapy > > thought. I will object to its use if the guys at the LUG propose it as > > an option to our spam problem. > > i suggest you read the information on the relays.osirusoft.com web site > before coming to any conclusion. it's far more accurate and reliable > than the rantings of one delusional paranoid. Yes, please tell us ALL the part on the website where it says there is a private blacklist being run by Joe Jared on the relays.osirsuft.com RBL. Find it.
RE: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
In my case all Asian email is spam, or at least 99.99% of it, Im more than happy to block out large netblocks, indeed that is what I do via the access file for sendmail. It would be good to improve my system to be more selective using rbl's, but an access list under sendmail seems to be the simplest given lack of docs to do much more. Simple answer is when asian ISP's stop allowing spammers or idiots on thier netblocks then other ISP's can be more selective. regards Thing -Original Message- From: Craig Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 20 August 2002 11:43 To: debian isp Subject: Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com) On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 01:24:04AM +0200, Marcin Sochacki wrote: > For me it's obvious that Jason is right about Osirusoft's list being > too restrictive about Asian hosts. Craig, please try to read the > message, which was repeated over and over by Jason: they block a huge > HK netblock, not only open relays. actually, it's jason lim who's claiming i'm only talking about open relays. i specifically stated "open relays and spam sources" several times. it suits his argument to ignore the spamhaus issue. for whatever reason, the osirusoft maintainer regards that particular ISP as a spam source and lists the entire netblock. if i had to guess, i'd say this is probably because they don't bother responding to or taking any action about spam complaints. it is SOP in the anti-spam community to regard such behaviour (or non-behaviour as the case may be) as evidence that the ISP isn't just a victim of spam but is an active and willing participant. in any case, it's his list he can set whatever policy he chooses. more to the point, nobody is forced to use it...it's entirely voluntary. > I live in Poland. I do get a lot of spam both from Asia and the > "West". I try to fight spam with all methods I find effective, but > avoiding false positives as much as I can. Assuming that all Asian > mail is spam is really unfair. that is only lim's unsubstantiated paranoid delusion. osirusoft does not block all asian mail. i use the osirusoft RBL. i receive a lot of mail from asian mail servers. my users who correspond with people in asia are not complaining about false positives from asian servers. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 01:24:04AM +0200, Marcin Sochacki wrote: > For me it's obvious that Jason is right about Osirusoft's list being > too restrictive about Asian hosts. Craig, please try to read the > message, which was repeated over and over by Jason: they block a huge > HK netblock, not only open relays. actually, it's jason lim who's claiming i'm only talking about open relays. i specifically stated "open relays and spam sources" several times. it suits his argument to ignore the spamhaus issue. for whatever reason, the osirusoft maintainer regards that particular ISP as a spam source and lists the entire netblock. if i had to guess, i'd say this is probably because they don't bother responding to or taking any action about spam complaints. it is SOP in the anti-spam community to regard such behaviour (or non-behaviour as the case may be) as evidence that the ISP isn't just a victim of spam but is an active and willing participant. in any case, it's his list he can set whatever policy he chooses. more to the point, nobody is forced to use it...it's entirely voluntary. > I live in Poland. I do get a lot of spam both from Asia and the > "West". I try to fight spam with all methods I find effective, but > avoiding false positives as much as I can. Assuming that all Asian > mail is spam is really unfair. that is only lim's unsubstantiated paranoid delusion. osirusoft does not block all asian mail. i use the osirusoft RBL. i receive a lot of mail from asian mail servers. my users who correspond with people in asia are not complaining about false positives from asian servers. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
Craig and Jason, I'm reading this thread and to be honest, I'm getting really tired to get the same sentences repeated over and over by both of you. It seems you just don't read the other's mail, instead just quickly reply with counter-arguments. Please try to cooperate, or go somewhere else to discuss this topic. For me it's obvious that Jason is right about Osirusoft's list being too restrictive about Asian hosts. Craig, please try to read the message, which was repeated over and over by Jason: they block a huge HK netblock, not only open relays. I think the RBL list is for listing open relays, but they blocked all hosts within a wide range, which means blocking private hosts, servers not related to IAdvantage and even non-existing hosts. E.g.: http://openrbl.org/ip/202/85/128/1.htm (202.85.128.1) The host doesn't even ping, how this can be an open relay?! I live in Poland. I do get a lot of spam both from Asia and the "West". I try to fight spam with all methods I find effective, but avoiding false positives as much as I can. Assuming that all Asian mail is spam is really unfair. I guess debian-isp is not a good forum for a discussion about internals of RBL databases. One point, which could be useful for Debian ISPs here is that Osirusoft's database uses unfair methods to fight spam and blocks whole networks without proper explanation. The decision to use that database or not is in the hands of this list's subscribers. Marcin -- Windows 2000: A reliable comprehensive and integrated operating system platform delivering seamless interoperability, scalability, and performance, and broad application support. Open Source: No f*ing buzzwords.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 10:39:26AM -0500, Alex Borges wrote: > > if you really cared about the issue, you'd be a lot more productive > > if you spent your energies explaining to chinese-speaking sysadmins > > what the spam problem is, why they've been black-listed and what > > they can do to get off the list. that would be far more effective > > than whining on english-speaking mailing lists and newsgroups. > > Now. this answer is not acceptable i think. Although, well, > everyone is free to speak their mind. actually, it is. there is a documented procedure for getting a server's RBL listing removed. he chooses to ignore that procedure. he claims that it's OK for chinese sysadmins to ignore spam complaints because they don't know english and don't understand the complaint. he does read english and can act as an interpreter for them. if he really cared about resolving the issue, he'd do something productive about it rather than just whinge to people who have nothing to do with the listing. > IF This guy is indeed internally blocking, for personal reasons, a > list that is community supported (in the sense that the community > trusts it), then Lim's accusation is valid and serius i think. Lim's accusation is not valid. while it's only a single data point, i know from my own users that osirusoft does not block all mail servers in asia. i work for an ISP in Victoria, Australia where we have a large Asian immigrant population. a large percentage of our user base is Asian, and they regularly correspond with family and conduct business via email to and from various countries in Asia. they rarely complain about blocked mail, i get many times more complaints from users about telstra's bigpond or ozemail's mail servers being blocked than i get about asian mail servers being blocked. i get only a handful of such complaints per month total (i can't even remember the last time the complaint was in regard to an asian mail server - it must have been over a year ago), and they are given the option of being put on our "spamlovers" map which bypasses RBL and other anti-spam checksvery few of them actually want that. i know many other people using relays.osirusoft.com on both small and large mail servers. the overwhelming assessment is that the osirusoft RBL is extremely accurate with a very low false-positive rate and a very high ability to block spam. > I mean, there should be no "hidden" records of a list like this one, > they should all be open. Otherwise its like a trojan horse to put ppl > out of business. there are no "hidden" records. you've been sucked in by Lim's emotive language. think about it. how can an RBL possibly have hidden records? every record in an RBL is published via DNS, otherwise it doesn't work. > Someone actually suggested blocking all of Asia to which every single > member objected. Cant do that, ONE lost mail directed to us by a lost > mexican newbie living in Hong Kong is reason enough to not block this > way. outside of jason lim's paranoid fantasies, nobody is actually blocking all of asia. > So actually, being told that an important, widely accepted tool as > osiru is being secretly controled and changed by one guy is not a hapy > thought. I will object to its use if the guys at the LUG propose it as > an option to our spam problem. i suggest you read the information on the relays.osirusoft.com web site before coming to any conclusion. it's far more accurate and reliable than the rantings of one delusional paranoid. Lim is just upset that his ISP is listed for being a spam source. from that he has constructed a paranoid delusion that osirusoft lists all of asia. the actual facts of the situation don't matter to him. instead of lobbying his ISP to clean up their act and get rid of their spamming customers (and/or voting with his feet and leaving), he has decided that he will whine about osirusoft on various mailing lists and newsgroups. not very productive. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > if you really cared about the issue, you'd be a lot more productive if > you spent your energies explaining to chinese-speaking sysadmins what > the spam problem is, why they've been black-listed and what they can do > to get off the list. that would be far more effective than whining on > english-speaking mailing lists and newsgroups. Now. this answer is not acceptable i think. Although, well, everyone is free to speak their mind. IF This guy is indeed internally blocking, for personal reasons, a list that is community supported (in the sense that the community trusts it), then Lim's accusation is valid and serius i think. I mean, there should be no "hidden" records of a list like this one, they should all be open. Otherwise its like a trojan horse to put ppl out of business. Now, i dont know whos spamming who, i hate spam as well. I know most of spam abusers and spam itself comes from Asia, speciffically tw and hk. But even in the shady LUG of my Mexican home town, actually last saturday (anyone else thinks there is a Jungian effect in debian-isp?), we were discussing ways to stop spammers at the mailing lists, or what policies should the group enforce to reduce spamming. Someone actually suggested blocking all of Asia to which every single member objected. Cant do that, ONE lost mail directed to us by a lost mexican newbie living in Hong Kong is reason enough to not block this way. So actually, being told that an important, widely accepted tool as osiru is being secretly controled and changed by one guy is not a hapy thought. I will object to its use if the guys at the LUG propose it as an option to our spam problem. Alex > > given the SPEWS listing, though, it looks like you're possibly a spammer > or spamhaus rather than just an end-user suffering collateral damage. i > hope that's not the case. > > > BTW, I'd be very happy if iAdvantage was owned by me... it being a > > multimillion dollar, publically listed corporation and all. I'm > > actually kind of flattered that SPEWS thinks I'm running the show > > there. > > > > We're one of their customers using their bandwidth... they are one of > > the highest performance bandwidth facilities in HK which is why we use > > them for our bandwidth. > > whether you like it or not, anyone can block email on their own servers > using whatever criteria they choose. you do NOT have a right to have > your mail accepted. nobody does. that choice rests with the recipient > server. > > you have two choices: > > 1. explain to your ISP why they shouldn't be supporting spammers and get > them to enforce an anti-spam policy. > > 2. move to an ISP which doesn't support spammers. if enough people did > this and told them why, your current ISP might finally acquire a clue > and change their ways. > > i recommend trying option 1 first and then, if that fails, option 2. > > > > iAdvantage provides bandwidth to many hundreds of large corporations > > in HK... overall i'd say many thousands of websites are hosted there > > (mostly Chinese probably). So with one fell swoop all these sites can > > no longer send email properly. Can we say collateral damage to the > > max? > > so what? telstra and ozemail (the latter is owned by uunet) here in > australia host thousands of legitimate businesses, and actually show > some signs of pursuing an anti-spam policy. they still get black-listed > (and rightly so) when they're caught running open relays or refuse to > terminate a spammer's account. the truth is that it is ONLY the fact > that various RBLs will list them that has forced them to have an > anti-spam policy and actually enforce it. > > unless it affects their bottom-line (i.e. when the costs of supporting > spam are greater than the profits from supporting spam), they don't care > and they're not going to do anything about it. > > craig > > -- > craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Fabricati Diem, PVNC. > -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:18, Jason Lim wrote: > Its not justificaiton. But if TWO men kill people, why does it make it > okay for the USA murder to go free, while the Asian murder gets the ax? We are not talking about murder here, we are talking about blocking email which is a far less serious matter. In the case of murder what happens to the murderer depends on the laws of the country the crime is comitted in. There are many countries where you can literally "get away with murder" because of their lack of suitable laws and law enforcement. This issue of different laws also corresponds to the spam situation. In the English speaking part of the Internet if you don't respond to an English language complaint regarding spam then you are regarded as protecting the spammer and treated accordingly. In Asia the rules are different. So sometimes spammers get away more easily in the US because they will argue their case instead of just accepting a default judgement against them. Note that in a civil trial, if you decline to attend the trial then the judgement will almost certainly not be in your favour. Also note that in a criminal trial, trying to escape from custody before the trial will not help your case. On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:36, Jason Lim wrote: > I sincerely did not consider that racist. Some people are overly > politically sensitive... some people go off the handle when you say > "Asian", since "Asia" is actually comprised of many different peoples and There is some confusion, when someone refers to an individual as "an Asian" then it's probably not meant in a nice way. But referring to the policies of Asian governments is a totally different matter. > nations. But I'm not like that... and I believe that Russell isn't like > that either. Hopefully you weren't offended by those comments, Russell. If > you were I apologize... it was not intended as a racist remark. No offense at all. I disagree with some of your statements, but I can understand why you make them, and we can spend some time in a friendly debate about them. -- I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software. If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the >From field.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 09:04 , Jason Lim wrote: The listing I am talking about has nothing to do with open relays. An entire ISP comprising a lot of HK has been added privately to a hidden Osirusoft blacklist. That's most excellent news, I'm glad I spent an entire weekend reading the same thing over and over again. I do, indeed, think that I'm going to go downtown with a sandwichboard strapped to myself reading "REPENT - AN ENTIRE ISP COMPRISING A LOT OF HONG KONG MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO SEND YOU E-MAIL" and see how many people stop using relays.osirusoft.com. You're really not making a good case for people to want to receive e-mail from your ISP. -rt - -- Ryan Tucker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GPG: 99A27DE7 AIM: HoopyCat ARS: N0PBS Network Operations Manager, NetAccess, Inc. http://www.netacc.net/~rtucker/ - (585)419-8252 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQE9YPpsDu//cZmifecRAuozAJ0R3LEdP7EOFINbQTS40orLNQUnZgCcC7Kh GbzTdVJhx46ajq08lIFG6S8= =VaA3 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:47, Nathan wrote: > > > And besides... having those western legistative ppl... in Australia, > > > USA, > > > etc. acting like children, in front of everyone... is that really > > > something to be proud of? > > > > Ugh, since when did this turn into a racist political debate? > > You are the one making a racial issue out of it. > > Jason and I were making nationalistic comments which are not nearly as > offensive as racial comments, and which are protected under free speech laws. I sincerely did not consider that racist. Some people are overly politically sensitive... some people go off the handle when you say "Asian", since "Asia" is actually comprised of many different peoples and nations. But I'm not like that... and I believe that Russell isn't like that either. Hopefully you weren't offended by those comments, Russell. If you were I apologize... it was not intended as a racist remark. > > > Its a rather human trait to lose your temper, and legislators of > > eastern countries are just as able to fly off the handle as legislators > > in western countries. Not that I consider Australia to be 'The West' - > > Australia needs to forge much closer ties to it's asian neighbours, and > > needs to start thinking of itself in different terms. > > If the Asian neighbors become true democracies (instead of the farcical > elections they have currently), give people a fair trial, and ban the use of > torture then I would advocate closer relations between Australia and those > countries. Mmm... in this case, don't clump Asia together... China does that... but remember that Hong Kong was controlled/ruled by the British for umpteen years... so the law and commercial system is British-based. South Korea is good North Korea isn't. Same goes for Vietnam... Philippines. I myself have never been to China... don't want no trouble with them. I look western...what happens if they think I'm falun gong or something? Haha... anyway... many Asian countries are improving. I know that things will get better progressively. Have a look at the Universities in Australia (USYD, UNSW, UTS, etc.) and the USA... many of them are from Hong Kong and other parts of Asia. Many of those graduates then go back to their fatherland... and they take with them good english (i don't say great... its passable) and good I.T. knowledge. However, this hasn't been going on for very long... and China hasn't released that many students abroad before until recently. It will take time for these graduates to go up the ranks, until they reach a point that they are in control and can make a change. When enough of them do get in power, you'll notice things changing slowly... the network admins will get savvier, laws will get clearer and more transparent, etc... as the graduates will be able to take the good points from overseas and bring them back to their fatherland to teach the locals there. But it takes time. China and lots of Asia does not want to become the next Russia. Look what democracy and "openness" did to them. > Unfortunately Australia is getting closer to it's Asian neighbors. Australia > voted against allowing the UN to inspect prisons for torture. The Australian > government tried to remove the right to a trial (it was defeated in the > senate but they are expected to try again). The Australian government has a > history of selling weapons to Asian countries where they are used for > repressing civilians. Behind the scenes a lot of dirty things go on that most of us don't know about normally. You know Saddam Hussan (spelling?) and Osama Bin Ladin? Guess who gave them both weapons before the USA. > If things continue like this then soon all the major "western" countries will > have fascist dictatorships just like most Asian countries, and we won't have > any heated arguements or swearing in parliament/congress. Heated arguements.. yes. But not to the point where they are screaming at the top of their voice (Australia), or fights start to break out (Taiwan). But yes... given the choice between swearing and argument over having a dictatorship, i'd take the swearing any day.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > i think you're bring up irrelevancies. the fact that company A is doing > > > wrong is not justification for company B doing the same. Its not justificaiton. But if TWO men kill people, why does it make it okay for the USA murder to go free, while the Asian murder gets the ax? > > > this thread is not about what rackspace or anyone else is doing. it's > > > about osirusoft blocking IADVANTAGE. its about DOUBLE STANDARDS. Why hold Asian ISPs to a different light compared to USA/Western ISPs? Isn't a spammer a spammer? YOU said it yourself... you don't care who it is, they should be blocked if they spam. > > > > Oh really? Then why aren't Rackspace and Sprint, for example, listed? > > HOW THE FUCK WOULD I KNOW? > > I don't care. if they get listed too, then good. in the meantime, i'm > happy that at least one more spamhaus or open relay is listed. Then go and block Rackspace: http://openrbl.org/ip/64/39/2/185.htm Block: 64.39.0-64.39.31 RSPC-NET-1 US San Antonio, Texas @rackspace.com and Sprint http://openrbl.org/ip/199/0/233/22.htm Block: 199.0/16 NETBLK-SPRINT-BLKA US Herndon, Virginia @sprint.net they each have thousands of complaints against them compared to iAdvantage's hundred or so. > > List iAdvantage (Asian), but also list Rackspace (USA) and Telstra > > (AUS). > > yes, fine. if they deserve it, they should get listed too. Be a man of action... do what you say and preach to others. Block them on your mail server. > > > > List iAdvantage (Asian), but also list Rackspace (USA) and Telstra > > (AUS). > > yes, fine. if they deserve it, they should get listed too. > > Then how come iAdvantage with a hundred or so complaints (and even > > most of those aren't complaints... read some), is listed, while > > Telstra and Rackspace with their THOUSANDS of complaints go unlisted? > > i don't know and i don't give a flying fuck. i'm not joe jarad and i > don't run his RBL, so i don't presume to speak for him. > Yet you defend him, his RBL, and his actions as if they were ordered from God himself. Why is that?
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> if you really want to do something to help resolve the problem, then > educate your countrymen about why running an open relay is a bad idea. > get them to understand the problem and DO something about it. that will > be far more productive and effective than simply whining about various > RBLs on mailing lists and newsgroups. The listing I am talking about has nothing to do with open relays. An entire ISP comprising a lot of HK has been added privately to a hidden Osirusoft blacklist. I am bringing to light the fact that relays.osirusoft.com is NOT just a combination of other lists... it also has a hidden private blacklist run by Joe Jared himself. I am also bringing to light that NO OTHER RBLs now list iAdvantage because they are handling things. SPEWS no longer have them on their blacklist... SPAMHAUS no longer list them, and all those other ones don't either. Why does Osirusoft (Joe Jared) add it secretly to their private blacklist all of a sudden? Does that not make you wonder if all others are removing it (and I consider SPEWS to be so much more militant, up until now) that something is strange when Joe Jared adds it by himself suddenly? > > > ditto for spamhaus black-listings. spamhaus IP addresses should be > blacklisted regardless of where they are and who is using them. Please blacklist Rackspace and Sprint netblocks then. T > > > But then, you would also get no legit mail from Asia at all. Maybe > > thats acceptable to you, maybe not. > > it's the same price you pay for using ANY open relay blacklist. the > fact that it's an asian mail server makes no difference...legitimate > mail will be rejected from a listed open relay along with spam, > regardless of what continent the open relay server is on. > Don't twist my words. Right now iAdvantage... ALL its netblocks... NOT JUST open relays, are listed. As mentioned in previous posts with the exact netblock ranges, which cover a lot of HK IP space, they are ALL blocked. Not just a few netblocks used by spamming companies... ALL of them. So don't make Osirusoft sound oh-so-innocent by making it sound as if they are only listing the open relays and spam sources. They've listed a whole large chunk of HK. And as other have said, if they knew that Osirusoft was doing this, they would reconsider using it.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> if you really want to do something to help resolve the problem, then > educate your countrymen about why running an open relay is a bad idea. > get them to understand the problem and DO something about it. that will > be far more productive and effective than simply whining about various > RBLs on mailing lists and newsgroups. The listing I am talking about has nothing to do with open relays. An entire ISP comprising a lot of HK has been added privately to a hidden Osirusoft blacklist. I am bringing to light the fact that relays.osirusoft.com is NOT just a combination of other lists... it also has a hidden private blacklist run by Joe Jared himself. I am also bringing to light that NO OTHER RBLs now list iAdvantage because they are handling things. SPEWS no longer have them on their blacklist... SPAMHAUS no longer list them, and all those other ones don't either. Why does Osirusoft (Joe Jared) add it secretly to their private blacklist all of a sudden? Does that not make you wonder if all others are removing it (and I consider SPEWS to be so much more militant, up until now) that something is strange when Joe Jared adds it by himself suddenly? > > > ditto for spamhaus black-listings. spamhaus IP addresses should be > blacklisted regardless of where they are and who is using them. Please blacklist Rackspace and Sprint netblocks then. T > > > But then, you would also get no legit mail from Asia at all. Maybe > > thats acceptable to you, maybe not. > > it's the same price you pay for using ANY open relay blacklist. the > fact that it's an asian mail server makes no difference...legitimate > mail will be rejected from a listed open relay along with spam, > regardless of what continent the open relay server is on. > Don't twist my words. Right now iAdvantage... ALL its netblocks... NOT JUST open relays, are listed. As mentioned in previous posts with the exact netblock ranges, which cover a lot of HK IP space, they are ALL blocked. Not just a few netblocks used by spamming companies... ALL of them. So don't make Osirusoft sound oh-so-innocent by making it sound as if they are only listing the open relays and spam sources. They've listed a whole large chunk of HK. And as other have said, if they knew that Osirusoft was doing this, they would reconsider using it.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > Ah... but if I had not brought this to light, would you have even KNOWN > > about what was happening? Also keep in mind... it was "mail sent FROM > > the > > USA THROUGH Asia). People in Asia have no interest in your Penis > > Enhancements, Breast Enlargers, Free Trips to Vegas, 0% APR Credit > > Card, > > and all the rest of the crap that USA spammers send out. > > I believe everyone is in agreement then. Not only are you not > interested in it, but the internet as a majority is not interested > either. If people would stop responding to the damn spam and making it > 0.1% effective, we wouldn't have it. Damn that 0.1% of the > population! Strange... in Australia, Hong Kong, and most Asian countries, most of that spam doesn't even work. Not work in the sense that we can't even apply for it. Like those "0% credit cards", "super mortages" and stuff like that. So not only am I not interested, it doesn't work for me ;-) > > Nope. Things like the Debian Constitution prevent any one person from > > doing stupid and abusive things. Okay... it can happen, but by > > following > > rules and guidelines set out, there is far less opportunity for things > > to > > be abused and go wrong, don't you agree? > > It doesn't stop a group of people doing a stupid thing all as one unit, > though, does it? Well, presumably that is what democracy is for... so that one crooked ruler/dictator can't fubar the whole country/company/RBL/somethingelse. That is why we have "checks and balances". Okay, it doesn't always work (the people can still be stupid, paid off, etc.), but that is what the USA is based on (democracy), and that is what people are suppose to "aspire" to in communist countries, so presumably that is "superior". > > Look, this discussion is useless. People using the Osirusoft blackhole > are making a choice to do so. If someone tries to email them > legitimately from a blocked subnet, and the mail doesn't get through, > then thats their choice. Certainly... I believe in choice... but INFORMED choice. Giving a baby poison... it'll probably take it because it doesn't know better. Give an adult the same, and as soon as it doesn't look quite right the person will think twice. Same applies here... I bet many people didn't realize Osirusoft had a hidden "private blacklist" of it's own that was added by the creator Joe Jared without people knowing (at least it's not listed publically anywhere on the website, or anywhere else I can see). Probably if you trawl through NANAE long enough you might be lucky to find someone mention it previously. > > Just because you, or I, don't like the list or the way its run doesn't > mean they shouldn't use it. Again... choice is good. I use Spamcop, you can use Blars, xsleward, whatever. But the point is... which is the point of the ORIGINAL post, was to make people aware of the fact that Osirusoft has a hidden private blacklist, that is independently blacklisting the upstream we use.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 01:47:31PM +0900, Nathan wrote: > On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 10:43 AM, Jason Lim wrote: > > >Well, Thank God the chinese CCCP (China) party meetings aren't like > >that. Can you imagine 1000's of leaders of each province getting > >into an "heated discussion" like that? > > > >And besides... having those western legistative ppl... in Australia, > >USA, etc. acting like children, in front of everyone... is that > >really something to be proud of? > > Ugh, since when did this turn into a racist political debate? > > Its a rather human trait to lose your temper, and legislators of > eastern countries are just as able to fly off the handle as [snip, snip, snip... call it censorship... ] Please guys - this isn't really on-topic anymore, is it? -- Karl E. Jørgensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.karl.jorgensen.com Today's fortune: Your job is being a professor and researcher: That's one hell of a good excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix. (Linus Torvalds to Andrew Tanenbaum) pgpyorYX5d5Nu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 11:51:16AM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 10:57:35AM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > > AND I REPEAT (since you didn't choose to reply to this): > > > --- > > > [blah blah blah] > > > > > > What do you think now? > > > > i think you're bring up irrelevancies. the fact that company A is doing > > wrong is not justification for company B doing the same. > > > > this thread is not about what rackspace or anyone else is doing. it's > > about osirusoft blocking IADVANTAGE. > > > > osirusoft's decision to block iadvantage seems to be perfectly > > justified. > > > Oh really? Then why aren't Rackspace and Sprint, for example, listed? HOW THE FUCK WOULD I KNOW? I don't care. if they get listed too, then good. in the meantime, i'm happy that at least one more spamhaus or open relay is listed. > List iAdvantage (Asian), but also list Rackspace (USA) and Telstra > (AUS). yes, fine. if they deserve it, they should get listed too. > --- > [ blah blah blah ] stop repeating the same irrelevant crap as if it somehow supports your argument. the fact that some other ISPs support spam is NOT IN ANY WAY justification for your ISP to support spam. > What do you think now? i already told you what i think in the last message. that you are attempting to introduce irrelevancies into the argument. > Then how come iAdvantage with a hundred or so complaints (and even > most of those aren't complaints... read some), is listed, while > Telstra and Rackspace with their THOUSANDS of complaints go unlisted? i don't know and i don't give a flying fuck. i'm not joe jarad and i don't run his RBL, so i don't presume to speak for him. as far as i'm concerned, they're a spamhaus and/or an open relay. they deserve to get listed. end of story. what other ISP's do is completely and utterly irrelevant to iadvantage's listing in the osirusoft RBL. > Obviously they are doing something far worse than iAdvantage to have > THAT many complaints? Why be biased against iAdvantage, when it is > obvious the above Western ISPs, and many more, are getting FAR MORE > complaints? could it be that they don't ever do anything about their spamming customers? could it be that they don't ever bother responding to spam complaints? perhaps if they bothered responding to spam complaints (or better yet, actually terminated their spamming customers' accounts) they might get more favourable treatment. it's their problem if they choose to compound their error by ignoring complaints and doing absolutely nothing to solve the problem, > > see above. both telstra and ozemail regularly get blacklisted when > > they deserve it. why should iadvantage be immune just because > > they're asian and they never bother responding to spam complaints? > > should asian ISPs be a special case, protected from the results of > > their own cluelessness and/or greed, simply because some of the > > sysadmins don't speak english? > > No one is saying immune. bullshit. that's the whole point of your pathetic whinge. > Why should Telstra, Sprint and Rackspace be immune because they are > Western? as has been pointed out to you at least twice in this thread, they are NOT immune. i'll say it again because you seem particularly thick on this point: THEY ALSO GET LISTED WHEN THEY ARE CAUGHT RUNNING OPEN RELAYS OR REFUSE TO TERMINATE A SPAMMING CUSTOMER'S ACCOUNT. i know that for a fact because i've had to deal with the fallout several times when telstra's or ozemail's (or any other largish ISP) mail servers get blacklisted by any of the RBLs i use. unlike iadvantage, telstra and ozemail actually do something about their spam problem when they get listed, so they eventually get unlisted. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 11:43:47AM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > In fact, if you block all of Asia altogether, you might get a lot less > because USA spammers abusing Asian networks and servers won't get > their spam to you. you still don't get it. while it's true that a lot of the spam that comes from asian mail servers is ultimately sourced from US spammers, that's basically irrelevant. an open relay is an open relay regardless of what continent it's on and regardless of who is abusing it. if it's an open relay it SHOULD be listed. if you really want to do something to help resolve the problem, then educate your countrymen about why running an open relay is a bad idea. get them to understand the problem and DO something about it. that will be far more productive and effective than simply whining about various RBLs on mailing lists and newsgroups. ditto for spamhaus black-listings. spamhaus IP addresses should be blacklisted regardless of where they are and who is using them. > But then, you would also get no legit mail from Asia at all. Maybe > thats acceptable to you, maybe not. it's the same price you pay for using ANY open relay blacklist. the fact that it's an asian mail server makes no difference...legitimate mail will be rejected from a listed open relay along with spam, regardless of what continent the open relay server is on. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 10:43 AM, Jason Lim wrote: Well, Thank God the chinese CCCP (China) party meetings aren't like that. Can you imagine 1000's of leaders of each province getting into an "heated discussion" like that? And besides... having those western legistative ppl... in Australia, USA, etc. acting like children, in front of everyone... is that really something to be proud of? Ugh, since when did this turn into a racist political debate? Its a rather human trait to lose your temper, and legislators of eastern countries are just as able to fly off the handle as legislators in western countries. Not that I consider Australia to be 'The West' - Australia needs to forge much closer ties to it's asian neighbours, and needs to start thinking of itself in different terms. Ah... but if I had not brought this to light, would you have even KNOWN about what was happening? Also keep in mind... it was "mail sent FROM the USA THROUGH Asia). People in Asia have no interest in your Penis Enhancements, Breast Enlargers, Free Trips to Vegas, 0% APR Credit Card, and all the rest of the crap that USA spammers send out. I believe everyone is in agreement then. Not only are you not interested in it, but the internet as a majority is not interested either. If people would stop responding to the damn spam and making it 0.1% effective, we wouldn't have it. Damn that 0.1% of the population! Nope. Things like the Debian Constitution prevent any one person from doing stupid and abusive things. Okay... it can happen, but by following rules and guidelines set out, there is far less opportunity for things to be abused and go wrong, don't you agree? It doesn't stop a group of people doing a stupid thing all as one unit, though, does it? We're listed there too... nearly everyone i've looked up is there. Very few people use them. I don't care if you or I are on it. Osirusoft on the other hand is far more popular. That is why I am bringing this to light. So, there are 2% of the internet using it as opposed to about 0.5%. Whoopee do. Look, this discussion is useless. People using the Osirusoft blackhole are making a choice to do so. If someone tries to email them legitimately from a blocked subnet, and the mail doesn't get through, then thats their choice. Just because you, or I, don't like the list or the way its run doesn't mean they shouldn't use it. Nathan. -- "You have just destroyed one model XQJ-37 nuclear powered pansexual roto-plookerand you're gonna have to pay for it." - Frank Zappa
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 03:02, Jason Lim wrote: > Blah... somehow I don't think this is going anywhere. USA and western > spammers will continue to find fault in chinese networks and servers to > kingdom come. Perhaps the chinese admins should block USA mail traffic > altogether so USA and western spammers can no longer abuse chinese > networks. What say? Sounds good to me! On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 03:43, Jason Lim wrote: > > Heated, is a mild term. Such forums are always nasty, heated, and > > difficult. You are making a cultural mistake. > > Well, Thank God the chinese CCCP (China) party meetings aren't like that. > Can you imagine 1000's of leaders of each province getting into an "heated > discussion" like that? No I can't. I can't imagine anything other than an absolute dictatorship in China, where if you disagree with the government too much you get tortured and killed. Even members of the government aren't above the death penalty in dictatorships. > And besides... having those western legistative ppl... in Australia, USA, > etc. acting like children, in front of everyone... is that really > something to be proud of? It's no big deal. The only thing I criticise western governments for is becoming more like the Chinese government by restricting freedom of speech, and trying to get rid of the right to a fair trial. > Perhaps one day when communications with Asia becomes critical and > crucial... like now that China's entry into the WTO... makes a > difference. Actually China doesn't belong in the WTO. They should be excluded from such organizations until they do something about human rights. -- I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software. If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the >From field.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 10:57:35AM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > AND I REPEAT (since you didn't choose to reply to this): > > --- > > [blah blah blah] > > > > What do you think now? > > i think you're bring up irrelevancies. the fact that company A is doing > wrong is not justification for company B doing the same. > > this thread is not about what rackspace or anyone else is doing. it's > about osirusoft blocking IADVANTAGE. > > osirusoft's decision to block iadvantage seems to be perfectly > justified. Oh really? Then why aren't Rackspace and Sprint, for example, listed? List iAdvantage (Asian), but also list Rackspace (USA) and Telstra (AUS). Why be biased against Asia, when obviously the USA and Western ISPs are the root? --- http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=rackspace&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-ab use.email reveals 2620 messages concerning rackspace spam AND http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=telstra&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-abus e.email reveals 4260 messages concerning Telstra spam. What do you think now? --- Then how come iAdvantage with a hundred or so complaints (and even most of those aren't complaints... read some), is listed, while Telstra and Rackspace with their THOUSANDS of complaints go unlisted? Obviously they are doing something far worse than iAdvantage to have THAT many complaints? Why be biased against iAdvantage, when it is obvious the above Western ISPs, and many more, are getting FAR MORE complaints? > > see above. both telstra and ozemail regularly get blacklisted when they > deserve it. why should iadvantage be immune just because they're asian > and they never bother responding to spam complaints? should asian ISPs > be a special case, protected from the results of their own cluelessness > and/or greed, simply because some of the sysadmins don't speak english? > No one is saying immune. Like I said... block iAdvantage, BUT ALSO BLOCK RACKSPACE, and block all the rest of them, REGARDLESS OF COUNTRY, that spam. Why should RBLs be biased against Asia? You want fair... block Asia, BUT ALSO BLOCK the USA/AU/Western ISPs that get lots of spam complaints. Why should Telstra, Sprint and Rackspace be immune because they are Western?
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > Been there. Seen it. There are two sides to this issue, and when > > > you put 'em both on the same news group, you'd better expect > > > flames, especially when they are so totally diametrically opposed. > > > > This only supports my previous statment that telling people to go to NANAE > > for so-called resolution is a farce. > > Not a farce. Have you ever listened to a really heated debate in any > Western legislative body? > > Heated, is a mild term. Such forums are always nasty, heated, and > difficult. You are making a cultural mistake. Well, Thank God the chinese CCCP (China) party meetings aren't like that. Can you imagine 1000's of leaders of each province getting into an "heated discussion" like that? And besides... having those western legistative ppl... in Australia, USA, etc. acting like children, in front of everyone... is that really something to be proud of? > > > blars, like selward, lists entire net blocks. As I said, I find this > > > far to fanatical for my personal taste. > > > > Shall I remind you that OSIRUSOFT is blocking entire net blocks? > > Where did you get this information? As far as I know, that isn't > the case, but as always, I'll look at anything. Gladly. Okay... have a look at: http://openrbl.org/ip/202/85/189/66.htm It says: Block: 202.85.160-202.85.191 IADVANTAGE HK @iadvantage.net (but in actual fact, from 202.85.128.* - 203.194.191.* is blocked or around that, see for your self below) So... simple. Look at the first of the block, and look at the end, and look at stuff in the middle if you wish: http://openrbl.org/ip/202/85/160/1.htm (202.85.160.1) http://openrbl.org/ip/202/85/128/1.htm (202.85.128.1) http://openrbl.org/ip/203/194/150/1.htm (203.194.150.1) http://openrbl.org/ip/203/194/191/1.htm (203.194.191.1) So they are blocking the entire net block... not a portion of it. Does the above answer your question conclusively? The above is also a big chunk of HK IP netspace, fyi. > Oh, and shall I remind *YOU* that I agreed to switch to visi for a week? > > And already, I'm getting three times the spam I was. > I never said using less aggressive lists will give you less spam. In fact, if you block all of Asia altogether, you might get a lot less because USA spammers abusing Asian networks and servers won't get their spam to you. But then, you would also get no legit mail from Asia at all. Maybe thats acceptable to you, maybe not. > > > > > and also Joe Jared's own personal list. It is Joe Jared's own > > > > personal list that is the problem . . . > > > > > > A problem for . . . who? You, personally? > > > > Shouldn't that be a problem for you as well? > > No. Why? Except for this short discussion with you, I have no > need or interest in any of the "Amazing Offers!" sent to me > from Asia, and no correspondents there. If I did, I would white list > the one, particular address used by that correspondent. Ah... but if I had not brought this to light, would you have even KNOWN about what was happening? Also keep in mind... it was "mail sent FROM the USA THROUGH Asia). People in Asia have no interest in your Penis Enhancements, Breast Enlargers, Free Trips to Vegas, 0% APR Credit Card, and all the rest of the crap that USA spammers send out. > > > You are using a list that is > > contrived by a single person, including his own biased opinions, etc. > > Are there any other kind? Every organization is simply the combined > biased opinions of it's leaders/perception management personnel. Nope. Things like the Debian Constitution prevent any one person from doing stupid and abusive things. Okay... it can happen, but by following rules and guidelines set out, there is far less opportunity for things to be abused and go wrong, don't you agree? > > Are > > you willing to let your orgainization's communications be controlled by a > > single person's biased opinions? > > Osirusoft, even when I used their list, did not control my > communications. *I* do. I chose their list, I chose to try an > experiment where I replaced osirusoft with visi, and at the rate I'm > getting new spam now, I'll be choosing to switch back to osirusoft > after this week is out. Yes... you chose his list, but without knowing that he had personally and privately added such netblocks. Thats why I go with Linux... I know what is happening, I can see "under the hood", change things tweak things. If I didn't want that flexibility or capability, I would've gone with Windows. Do you know what is in Joe Jared's list? Places like ORDB.org... if you do a search for a listed IP, as the reason it is listed, along with evidence, time tested, time submitted, etc. Same goes with Spamcop... they actually store a copy of the spam for all to see, so there is less chance for someone to abuse it. If the submitted email obviously isn't spam, everyone can clearly see it isn't and remove the IP. Has Joe Jared said much, besides "go to NANAE"? > > As I said, I FULLY SU
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 10:57:35AM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > AND I REPEAT (since you didn't choose to reply to this): > --- > [blah blah blah] > > What do you think now? i think you're bring up irrelevancies. the fact that company A is doing wrong is not justification for company B doing the same. this thread is not about what rackspace or anyone else is doing. it's about osirusoft blocking IADVANTAGE. osirusoft's decision to block iadvantage seems to be perfectly justified. perhaps if iadvantage and other asian ISPs actually bothered responding to spam complaints and taking action, they might get more favourable treatment from anti-spam services. in the absence of any response, however, the appropriate course of action is to assume that they are actively complicit in the spamming offences. > > so what? telstra and ozemail (the latter is owned by uunet) here in > > australia host thousands of legitimate businesses, and actually show > > some signs of pursuing an anti-spam policy. they still get black-listed > > (and rightly so) when they're caught running open relays or refuse to > > terminate a spammer's account. the truth is that it is ONLY the fact > > that various RBLs will list them that has forced them to have an > > anti-spam policy and actually enforce it. > > See above. see above. both telstra and ozemail regularly get blacklisted when they deserve it. why should iadvantage be immune just because they're asian and they never bother responding to spam complaints? should asian ISPs be a special case, protected from the results of their own cluelessness and/or greed, simply because some of the sysadmins don't speak english? craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > I suppose because I notice these things first I tend to be the "bringer of > > bad news" to people and hence get flamed most. Oh well. > > Why not bring the news to people who run those Asian ISPs? > Because i can't possibly start teaching hundreds... possibly thousands of chinese net admins english, just so they can read spam reports. It would be like saying... why can't I educate the USA and western spammers to stop abusing chinese networks and servers? OR... why can't I teach the anti-spammers to speak some chinese so chinese admins could understand them? Wasn't the saying "understand thy enemy... be one with them" known? In that case... if chinese admins are the enemy, why not learn enough chinese to send the spam complaints in chinese? Blah... somehow I don't think this is going anywhere. USA and western spammers will continue to find fault in chinese networks and servers to kingdom come. Perhaps the chinese admins should block USA mail traffic altogether so USA and western spammers can no longer abuse chinese networks. What say?
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > whether you like it or not, anyone can block email on their own servers > using whatever criteria they choose. you do NOT have a right to have > your mail accepted. nobody does. that choice rests with the recipient > server. Yeah... except many End-users don't know / not aware of what RBLs the ISP they are using uses, nor in many cases do they have a choice. So, I'm bringing the fact to light that many end-users are missing out on legitimate email from Asia. > you have two choices: > > 1. explain to your ISP why they shouldn't be supporting spammers and get > them to enforce an anti-spam policy. > > 2. move to an ISP which doesn't support spammers. if enough people did > this and told them why, your current ISP might finally acquire a clue > and change their ways. AND I REPEAT (since you didn't choose to reply to this): --- http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=rackspace&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-ab use.email reveals 2620 messages concerning rackspace spam AND http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=telstra&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-abus e.email reveals 4260 messages concerning Telstra spam. What do you think now? --- Why are the above two ISPs/hosting companies not in the Osirusoft RBL then, comapred to iAdvatage's paltry hundred or something? > > iAdvantage provides bandwidth to many hundreds of large corporations > > in HK... overall i'd say many thousands of websites are hosted there > > (mostly Chinese probably). So with one fell swoop all these sites can > > no longer send email properly. Can we say collateral damage to the > > max? > > so what? telstra and ozemail (the latter is owned by uunet) here in > australia host thousands of legitimate businesses, and actually show > some signs of pursuing an anti-spam policy. they still get black-listed > (and rightly so) when they're caught running open relays or refuse to > terminate a spammer's account. the truth is that it is ONLY the fact > that various RBLs will list them that has forced them to have an > anti-spam policy and actually enforce it. See above. > unless it affects their bottom-line (i.e. when the costs of supporting > spam are greater than the profits from supporting spam), they don't care > and they're not going to do anything about it. > See above.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:42, Jason Lim wrote: > > When I get email in Chinese I just report it to SpamCop, if I've ever > > received a Yiddish email I'm sure I did the same. > > Eeep... spam or not? Mail in Chinese is considered spam until proven otherwise. There is no way of proving otherwise... > Yes... the engineers know english (the ones that configure the Cisco > routers and stuff) but the lower level tech support and stuff that have to > handle the "day to day" things... their english definately ain't hot. The > complaints normally go to them first... and if they don't understand it > properly, most time they'll put it in the "read it on 10 years time" > folder, or delete it straight out. So a net-apartheid is the only way to go then. > I suppose because I notice these things first I tend to be the "bringer of > bad news" to people and hence get flamed most. Oh well. Why not bring the news to people who run those Asian ISPs? -- I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software. If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the >From field.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 02:23:11AM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > says, and I quote, "Zentek (Jason Lim) is a spam-house, Iadvantage > > tolerates spammers. > > Thats right... because I'm one of the first people to complain about > this and probably the most vocal (and I'll continue to do so until > others see the truth). Maybe the other people in HK don't have good > enough English to argue the support themselves, but I do, and they > can't just go around bashing HK all they want without someone putting > up a fight. if you really cared about the issue, you'd be a lot more productive if you spent your energies explaining to chinese-speaking sysadmins what the spam problem is, why they've been black-listed and what they can do to get off the list. that would be far more effective than whining on english-speaking mailing lists and newsgroups. given the SPEWS listing, though, it looks like you're possibly a spammer or spamhaus rather than just an end-user suffering collateral damage. i hope that's not the case. > BTW, I'd be very happy if iAdvantage was owned by me... it being a > multimillion dollar, publically listed corporation and all. I'm > actually kind of flattered that SPEWS thinks I'm running the show > there. > > We're one of their customers using their bandwidth... they are one of > the highest performance bandwidth facilities in HK which is why we use > them for our bandwidth. whether you like it or not, anyone can block email on their own servers using whatever criteria they choose. you do NOT have a right to have your mail accepted. nobody does. that choice rests with the recipient server. you have two choices: 1. explain to your ISP why they shouldn't be supporting spammers and get them to enforce an anti-spam policy. 2. move to an ISP which doesn't support spammers. if enough people did this and told them why, your current ISP might finally acquire a clue and change their ways. i recommend trying option 1 first and then, if that fails, option 2. > iAdvantage provides bandwidth to many hundreds of large corporations > in HK... overall i'd say many thousands of websites are hosted there > (mostly Chinese probably). So with one fell swoop all these sites can > no longer send email properly. Can we say collateral damage to the > max? so what? telstra and ozemail (the latter is owned by uunet) here in australia host thousands of legitimate businesses, and actually show some signs of pursuing an anti-spam policy. they still get black-listed (and rightly so) when they're caught running open relays or refuse to terminate a spammer's account. the truth is that it is ONLY the fact that various RBLs will list them that has forced them to have an anti-spam policy and actually enforce it. unless it affects their bottom-line (i.e. when the costs of supporting spam are greater than the profits from supporting spam), they don't care and they're not going to do anything about it. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> Please take this conversation off debian-user. I'm not entirely sure why > it ended up here, but it's quite off-topic. Isn't the discussion of various RBLs and mail software on-topic? Doesn't this affect debian users ability to receive email? Would discussion of various anti-virus software be more on-topic? Doesn't that affect debian users ability to receive email as well? IMHO, discussion of RBLs is a legit topic to talk about. I am bringing to light something many users might not know... that using relays.osirusoft.com blocks out lots of Asia.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > > (sorry for the long link... i couldn't find a way to make it much > > shorter). > > http://www.makeashorterlink.com/ :-) -rt > Ah yes, I'll need to keep that one in mind next time. Thanks :-)
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > And you wonder why Chinese admins don't respond. What would YOU do if you > > got an email in Yiddish? > > When I get email in Chinese I just report it to SpamCop, if I've ever > received a Yiddish email I'm sure I did the same. Eeep... spam or not? Nei how ma? ;-) > Everyone who is doing legitimate things on the Net and who wants to > communicate with me knows that English is the language to use, and only > spammers do otherwise. Yes... the engineers know english (the ones that configure the Cisco routers and stuff) but the lower level tech support and stuff that have to handle the "day to day" things... their english definately ain't hot. The complaints normally go to them first... and if they don't understand it properly, most time they'll put it in the "read it on 10 years time" folder, or delete it straight out. > If due to some miscommunication most of Asia was to black-list me I wouldn't > be overly concerned. If it wasn't for you I wouldn't even notice such a > thing. > Yeah... I know. Thats the thing. Look at the newsgroups... look how many people from iAdvantage are complaining about Osirusoft blocking (since no other popular RBL is blocking iAdvantage anymore). Probably me and about 3 other english speaking people. You are right... i'd say 90% of iAdvantage customers probably don't communicate with the "West" that much, so they probably don't even notice the block. Heck... I didn't either until I tried emailing you, and got the ol' "blocked by Osirusoft" message. I suppose because I notice these things first I tend to be the "bringer of bad news" to people and hence get flamed most. Oh well.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 07:54:14PM +0100, Colin Watson wrote: > Please take this conversation off debian-user. I'm not entirely sure > why > it ended up here, but it's quite off-topic. I felt that a discussion of email block lists was, indeed, on topic. Note the number of other discussions re: email MUA and MTA configuration that have occurred on this list . . . discussions about block lists, what the consequences of using one are, which ones are considered good or bad, for what ever reasons, seemed on topic. But, what ever, I'll stop contributing. John S.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
Please take this conversation off debian-user. I'm not entirely sure why it ended up here, but it's quite off-topic. Thanks, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
Take it somewhere else please, like news.admin.mail-abuse or whatever that newsgroup is that has a bunch of posers claiming not to be from SPEWS and other fascist BLs. Apparently that newsgroups is specifically used for this kind of thing. No, seriously though, take it somewhere else. You are not only generating noise on the isp list, you are doing it on the user list as well which makes it twice as bad. vec - Original Message - From: "John W. M. Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jason Lim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "John W. M. Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 12:00 PM Subject: Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com) > On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 05:27:00PM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > > > What I call a resolution method are those used by ORDB.org, SPAMCOP.net, > > VISI.com, and plenty of other ones. > > Around all day . . . > > > > Which means, quite simply, that iAdvantage hosts spammers, and refuses > > > to remove them. > > > > If you'd go the newgroup that Joe Jared tells you to go to in his listing, > > you'd see the so called "large amount" of complaints about iAdvantage. > > Have you actually looked? > > Yes. > > > > > you can visit > > > > the militany NANAE newsgroup for resolution, but if you take a look at > > the > > > > messages there ugh... swearing at each other, threats, etc. Take a > > > > look for yourself. > > > > > > Been there. Seen it. There are two sides to this issue, and when > > > you put 'em both on the same news group, you'd better expect > > > flames, especially when they are so totally diametrically opposed. > > > > This only supports my previous statment that telling people to go to NANAE > > for so-called resolution is a farce. > > Not a farce. Have you ever listened to a really heated debate in any > Western legislative body? > > Heated, is a mild term. Such forums are always nasty, heated, and > difficult. You are making a cultural mistake. > > > > blars, like selward, lists entire net blocks. As I said, I find this > > > far to fanatical for my personal taste. > > > > Shall I remind you that OSIRUSOFT is blocking entire net blocks? > > Where did you get this information? As far as I know, that isn't > the case, but as always, I'll look at anything. > > Oh, and shall I remind *YOU* that I agreed to switch to visi for a week? > > And already, I'm getting three times the spam I was. > > > A large chunk of traffic from HK, in fact. > > And if I continue the way I am going (dropping MTA IP addresses into > my personal block list as the junk arrives), I'll have blocked about > 22 percent of HK's biggest ISP's in a months time. > > > > > and also Joe Jared's own personal list. It is Joe Jared's own > > > > personal list that is the problem . . . > > > > > > A problem for . . . who? You, personally? > > > > Shouldn't that be a problem for you as well? > > No. Why? Except for this short discussion with you, I have no > need or interest in any of the "Amazing Offers!" sent to me > from Asia, and no correspondents there. If I did, I would white list > the one, particular address used by that correspondent. > > > You are using a list that is > > contrived by a single person, including his own biased opinions, etc. > > Are there any other kind? Every organization is simply the combined > biased opinions of it's leaders/perception management personnel. > > > Are > > you willing to let your orgainization's communications be controlled by a > > single person's biased opinions? > > Osirusoft, even when I used their list, did not control my > communications. *I* do. I chose their list, I chose to try an > experiment where I replaced osirusoft with visi, and at the rate I'm > getting new spam now, I'll be choosing to switch back to osirusoft > after this week is out. > > > As I said, I FULLY SUPPORT blocking of abused open relays (ala ORDB and > > many others), and individual IPs (ala Spamcop and many others), but not > > the full blocking of netblocks or countries (ala Blars, xslwerard, > > osirusoft, etc.). > > Oh, I agree. Which is why if you can show me some proof that osirusoft > blocks entire netblocks because of the actions of a single *SEPARABLE* > entity (the separable entity is an important point), I'll probably have > to find a way to white list parts of osirusoft's list if/when I go back > to
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 05:27:00PM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > What I call a resolution method are those used by ORDB.org, SPAMCOP.net, > VISI.com, and plenty of other ones. Around all day . . . > > Which means, quite simply, that iAdvantage hosts spammers, and refuses > > to remove them. > > If you'd go the newgroup that Joe Jared tells you to go to in his listing, > you'd see the so called "large amount" of complaints about iAdvantage. > Have you actually looked? Yes. > > > you can visit > > > the militany NANAE newsgroup for resolution, but if you take a look at > the > > > messages there ugh... swearing at each other, threats, etc. Take a > > > look for yourself. > > > > Been there. Seen it. There are two sides to this issue, and when > > you put 'em both on the same news group, you'd better expect > > flames, especially when they are so totally diametrically opposed. > > This only supports my previous statment that telling people to go to NANAE > for so-called resolution is a farce. Not a farce. Have you ever listened to a really heated debate in any Western legislative body? Heated, is a mild term. Such forums are always nasty, heated, and difficult. You are making a cultural mistake. > > blars, like selward, lists entire net blocks. As I said, I find this > > far to fanatical for my personal taste. > > Shall I remind you that OSIRUSOFT is blocking entire net blocks? Where did you get this information? As far as I know, that isn't the case, but as always, I'll look at anything. Oh, and shall I remind *YOU* that I agreed to switch to visi for a week? And already, I'm getting three times the spam I was. > A large chunk of traffic from HK, in fact. And if I continue the way I am going (dropping MTA IP addresses into my personal block list as the junk arrives), I'll have blocked about 22 percent of HK's biggest ISP's in a months time. > > > and also Joe Jared's own personal list. It is Joe Jared's own > > > personal list that is the problem . . . > > > > A problem for . . . who? You, personally? > > Shouldn't that be a problem for you as well? No. Why? Except for this short discussion with you, I have no need or interest in any of the "Amazing Offers!" sent to me from Asia, and no correspondents there. If I did, I would white list the one, particular address used by that correspondent. > You are using a list that is > contrived by a single person, including his own biased opinions, etc. Are there any other kind? Every organization is simply the combined biased opinions of it's leaders/perception management personnel. > Are > you willing to let your orgainization's communications be controlled by a > single person's biased opinions? Osirusoft, even when I used their list, did not control my communications. *I* do. I chose their list, I chose to try an experiment where I replaced osirusoft with visi, and at the rate I'm getting new spam now, I'll be choosing to switch back to osirusoft after this week is out. > As I said, I FULLY SUPPORT blocking of abused open relays (ala ORDB and > many others), and individual IPs (ala Spamcop and many others), but not > the full blocking of netblocks or countries (ala Blars, xslwerard, > osirusoft, etc.). Oh, I agree. Which is why if you can show me some proof that osirusoft blocks entire netblocks because of the actions of a single *SEPARABLE* entity (the separable entity is an important point), I'll probably have to find a way to white list parts of osirusoft's list if/when I go back to 'em. > There are plenty of good RBLs to use... see So far, after following you suggestion, my spam intake rate has jumped hugely. > http://www.declude.com/JunkMail/Support/ip4r.htm for a big list. It's not > as if osirusoft is your only option ... No, they are not my only option. But they've been the best I've tried so far. > why you defend them so much eludes > me, especially with so many better lists out there. Because the others out there *AREN'T* better! For my needs (except for you, I have no need to receive any email from Asia, and after you get sick of trying to convert me, I'll be back to none), blocking most of Asia has worked to reduce my spam, while not costing me any communications I want or need. Why you attack them so much, also eludes me. But beyond our shared dislike of blocking entire netblocks, we aren't going to agree. > > I just did. mail.iadvantage.net resolves to: > > > > 202.85.170.67 > > > > When I query 202.85.170.67 against relays.osirusoft.com, a > > 127.0.0.4 is returned. > > > > And since this MTA is being used by spammers and spamvertisers, > > it is quite reasonably black listed. > > Nope... not "THIS" mta... you mean the entire net blocks? No. I meant that MTA. Examples of spam from this address have been posted to NANE. > try 202.85.169.1 and many others around that > http://openrbl.org/ip/202/85/169/1.htm > > 202.85.153-178.* is being blocked, along with a lot more > > 203.194.128-191 .
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 18:30, Jason Lim wrote: > Already have responded to it. I'm vocal about Western spammers abusing > Asian networks and servers, and then having Asia blocked for it. Sure, > fight people when they can't even speak English, and then wonder why they > don't respond to english email. Want to persecute me for fighting the good > fight, go right ahead. If no-one at the site can speak English then what's the problem with an English based spam blocking service blocking the mail? > Write an email in Chinese, email it to them, and you might get a different > response for a change, instead of forcing people to learn English. More > people speak Chinese anyway. Most people on the net speak English. Also English is the official language of India, population of India + population of USA > population of China. > And you wonder why Chinese admins don't respond. What would YOU do if you > got an email in Yiddish? When I get email in Chinese I just report it to SpamCop, if I've ever received a Yiddish email I'm sure I did the same. Everyone who is doing legitimate things on the Net and who wants to communicate with me knows that English is the language to use, and only spammers do otherwise. If due to some miscommunication most of Asia was to black-list me I wouldn't be overly concerned. If it wasn't for you I wouldn't even notice such a thing. -- I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software. If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the >From field.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > So... if suppose for people that do not send email to/from Asia, blocking > > ALL of Asia off wouldn't make the slightest difference to them. So hence > > RBLs that block all of Asia may indeed block out a lot of spam because > > American spammers are abusing the Asian servers/networks. > > > > However, for people that do communicate with Asia a lot, aggressive RBLs > > that liberally block Asian ISPs and networks just do not cut it. osirusoft > > is one that we will not use because of this. > > > > > > I invite you to see someone else trying to get off an RBL through NANAE... > > and see how wonderful the people are at NANAE: > > What do you expect? > > The way to get off the black list is to stop spammers. Bull. Have a look at nice, non-spamming people trying to get off the various lists there. Nearly all of them get blasted and flamed all to hell. Have a look at: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=3d5e47 72%241%400123456789rasclec1.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Diadvantage%2Bgro up:news.admin.net-abuse.email%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff% 26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3D3d5e4772%25241%25400123456789rasclec1.net%26rnum%3D 1 (sorry for the long link... i couldn't find a way to make it much shorter). That is someone else (unrelated to us) trying to get off some list. See the nice, polite post they make, THEN see the backlash of personal insults, foul language, etc. that they get in return. > Also it would be good to see a response from you to Jules regarding the > "Zentek (Jason Lim) is a spam-house, Iadvantage > tolerates spammers" issue. Already have responded to it. I'm vocal about Western spammers abusing Asian networks and servers, and then having Asia blocked for it. Sure, fight people when they can't even speak English, and then wonder why they don't respond to english email. Want to persecute me for fighting the good fight, go right ahead. Write an email in Chinese, email it to them, and you might get a different response for a change, instead of forcing people to learn English. More people speak Chinese anyway. And you wonder why Chinese admins don't respond. What would YOU do if you got an email in Yiddish?
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > Osirusoft is not a blocklist, it is just an aggregate of other lists. Joe > Jared is not listing you, he's simply distributing lists which do. If you > stop the spamming for which you are personally responsible, the blocklist > maintaners will remove your IP addresses from their lists. Osirusoft is NOT JUST an aggregate of other lists. Simple... just type in mailserv.iadvantage.net, and find another RBL listed and then tell me that Osirusoft's list is using that list. You won't find it. Why? Because Osirusoft's Joe Jared has an internal list, and THAT is where iAdvantage is listed. Why did he do this? Because the other lists, including SPEWS, no longer list iAdvantage. WHY? Because the complaints against iAdvantage are far trivial compared to the number of complaints against Sprint and other USA carriers. > A quick google search > > > http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=iadvantage&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-a bu > se.email > > reveals 174 threads concerning iAdvantage spam. Yeah... and I probably wrote a bunch of them personally. Note... not 174 THREADS... thats 174 postings. Get it right. For a large hosting corporation, I reckon that is actually a very small number. For comparison I'd also draw your attention to: http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=rackspace&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-ab use.email reveals 2620 messages concerning rackspace spam AND http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=telstra&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-abus e.email reveals 4260 messages concerning Telstra spam. What do you think now? > Further, the SPEWS record for iAdvantage > > http://spews.org/html/S475.html > > says, and I quote, "Zentek (Jason Lim) is a spam-house, Iadvantage > tolerates spammers. Thats right... because I'm one of the first people to complain about this and probably the most vocal (and I'll continue to do so until others see the truth). Maybe the other people in HK don't have good enough English to argue the support themselves, but I do, and they can't just go around bashing HK all they want without someone putting up a fight. BTW, I'd be very happy if iAdvantage was owned by me... it being a multimillion dollar, publically listed corporation and all. I'm actually kind of flattered that SPEWS thinks I'm running the show there. We're one of their customers using their bandwidth... they are one of the highest performance bandwidth facilities in HK which is why we use them for our bandwidth. iAdvantage provides bandwidth to many hundreds of large corporations in HK... overall i'd say many thousands of websites are hosted there (mostly Chinese probably). So with one fell swoop all these sites can no longer send email properly. Can we say collateral damage to the max? > > >Might I suggest 3 effective alternatives (there are many others, but these > >ones I've tested and are good): > > Might I suggest refusing all email from Zebtek and iAdvantage until such > time as they quit providing spam support. Oh please... do yourself a favour and don't show yourself to be a fool... http://groups.google.com/groups?q=zentek+group:news.admin.net-abuse.email&; hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&sa=G&scoring=d See for yourself when the last Zentek spam issue was... 13 months ago? Maybe more? Anyway... I suggest you also block Sprint and Rackspace, since they get far more complaints than iAdvantage. Go on... do it. Don't dare to?
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Russell Coker wrote: > Also it would be good to see a response from you to Jules regarding the > "Zentek (Jason Lim) is a spam-house, Iadvantage > tolerates spammers" issue. Actually, it wouldn't, at least not on debian-user, where it is WAY OT. imo Patrick -- Patrick Wiseman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux user #17943 *Google First, Ask Later* With 41 left to play, and up 20 in the loss column, the Braves' Magic Number is 22!
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:55, Jason Lim wrote: > > Large multinational firms get to choose their own policy for spam > > blocking, > > they don't let an ISP tell them what to do. All you need is a MD of a > > company they do business with being unable to send an email to the MD of > > their company and heads will roll. > > > > If you want to persue your crusade against spam blocking then finding an > > incidence of it affecting a multinational is a good way to start. > > In reality, since the multinational will control all the email servers > that email passes through, they certainly wouldn't use an RBL that blocks > themselves. Or organizations that they regard as important... > So... if suppose for people that do not send email to/from Asia, blocking > ALL of Asia off wouldn't make the slightest difference to them. So hence > RBLs that block all of Asia may indeed block out a lot of spam because > American spammers are abusing the Asian servers/networks. > > However, for people that do communicate with Asia a lot, aggressive RBLs > that liberally block Asian ISPs and networks just do not cut it. osirusoft > is one that we will not use because of this. > > > I invite you to see someone else trying to get off an RBL through NANAE... > and see how wonderful the people are at NANAE: What do you expect? The way to get off the black list is to stop spammers. Also it would be good to see a response from you to Jules regarding the "Zentek (Jason Lim) is a spam-house, Iadvantage tolerates spammers" issue. -- I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software. If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the >From field.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> Large multinational firms get to choose their own policy for spam blocking, > they don't let an ISP tell them what to do. All you need is a MD of a > company they do business with being unable to send an email to the MD of > their company and heads will roll. > If you want to persue your crusade against spam blocking then finding an > incidence of it affecting a multinational is a good way to start. In reality, since the multinational will control all the email servers that email passes through, they certainly wouldn't use an RBL that blocks themselves. but I was making the comparison easier for those that do not have an imagination as to the effects of legit email being blocked could have. > > do you think it is more acceptable to lose an email, rather than get a > > spam message a day? > > If it was 1 legit message vs 1 spam then no. However given a choice of 100 > spams vs 1 legit message, then sure I'll let that legit message be bounced. > In reality it's more like 1000 or more spams vs 1 legit message. Thats only because you don't send email to/from Asia. I personally send and receive at least 20 emails from Asia per day. And by using visi.com and ordb.org's RBLs, the spam that goes through is cut down... certainly not 1000 or more spams to 1 legit. i would say maybe 5-10 spam to 1 legit email for me. And if I use the spamcop RBL... that gets cut down to about 2-3 spams per 1 legit email. I haven't yet had a false entry in spamcop cause me to lose a legit email, but if that started happening I would drop spamcop and find something else. So... if suppose for people that do not send email to/from Asia, blocking ALL of Asia off wouldn't make the slightest difference to them. So hence RBLs that block all of Asia may indeed block out a lot of spam because American spammers are abusing the Asian servers/networks. However, for people that do communicate with Asia a lot, aggressive RBLs that liberally block Asian ISPs and networks just do not cut it. osirusoft is one that we will not use because of this. I invite you to see someone else trying to get off an RBL through NANAE... and see how wonderful the people are at NANAE: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=pan.20 02.08.17.06.13.16.459844.2802%40dawgsh*t.pile&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dia dvantage.%252Bnet%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26scoring%3D d%26selm%3Dpan.2002.08.17.06.13.16.459844.2802%2540dawgsh*t.pile%26rnum%3D 3 (sorry for the above... couldn't make it shorter).
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:00, Jason Lim wrote: > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:02, Jason Lim wrote: > > > It was once said that it is better to let off 10 criminals than to put > > > 1 innocent man in jail. > > > > > > You, on the other hand, suggest it is better to put 10 innocent men in > > > jail for 1 criminal. > > > > That only applies for criminal law where guilt has to be proven "beyond > > reasonable doubt". > > > > In civil law it's the "balance of probabilities", so if it's "most > > likely" that you did it then you'll be punished. > > > > If you sue a group of 10 people who are associated and you can prove > > that you have a valid case against at least 9 of them (and not one of > > them can prove > > themselves to be less guilty than the rest), then it's most likely that > > you'll get a judgement against all 10 of them. > > > > Having your email blocked by an anti-spam service does not compare to > > being locked in a cell with a group of sex-starved bikers... It doesn't > > even compare with the penalties you may face under civil law if you get > > sued. > > That would be debatable... how about loss of business due to > hindering/halting/imparing/interferring/your-own-word here business > communications? Are you serious? When comparing being locked in a cell with a group of horney bikers and having some email blocked, you'll choose the horney bikers? > You are only looking at a personal level... okay... if you can't get email > from your best friend that lives in Asia, the loss is only to you, and to > the other people that can't get their communications to/from Asia > properly. > > How about if a large multinational firm suddenly loses communications with > a large portion of it's customers living in Asia, because a militant RBL > suddenly decides to block it's upstream or the country (not them sending > spam)? True... the blocks can be worked around (relaying the mail through > other mail servers not in Asia, etc.), but it still takes time, during > which the loss of business could be pretty big. Large multinational firms get to choose their own policy for spam blocking, they don't let an ISP tell them what to do. All you need is a MD of a company they do business with being unable to send an email to the MD of their company and heads will roll. If you want to persue your crusade against spam blocking then finding an incidence of it affecting a multinational is a good way to start. > do you think it is more acceptable to lose an email, rather than get a > spam message a day? If it was 1 legit message vs 1 spam then no. However given a choice of 100 spams vs 1 legit message, then sure I'll let that legit message be bounced. In reality it's more like 1000 or more spams vs 1 legit message. -- I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software. If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the >From field.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
At 12:27 08/18/2002 +1000, Jason Lim wrote: >Because you are using the combined RBL relays.osirusoft.com, and since Joe >Jared (single operator of relays.osirusoft) has a documented chip on his >shoulder against Asia and iAdvantage Osirusoft is not a blocklist, it is just an aggregate of other lists. Joe Jared is not listing you, he's simply distributing lists which do. If you stop the spamming for which you are personally responsible, the blocklist maintaners will remove your IP addresses from their lists. A quick google search http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=iadvantage&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-abu se.email reveals 174 threads concerning iAdvantage spam. Further, the SPEWS record for iAdvantage http://spews.org/html/S475.html says, and I quote, "Zentek (Jason Lim) is a spam-house, Iadvantage tolerates spammers." >Might I suggest 3 effective alternatives (there are many others, but these >ones I've tested and are good): Might I suggest refusing all email from Zebtek and iAdvantage until such time as they quit providing spam support.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
Sincerely, - Original Message - From: "Russell Coker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jason Lim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:20 PM Subject: Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com) > On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:02, Jason Lim wrote: > > As I said in a previous email: > > > > - > > It was once said that it is better to let off 10 criminals than to put 1 > > innocent man in jail. > > > > You, on the other hand, suggest it is better to put 10 innocent men in > > jail for 1 criminal. > > > > Interesting thought. > > - > > That only applies for criminal law where guilt has to be proven "beyond > reasonable doubt". > > In civil law it's the "balance of probabilities", so if it's "most likely" > that you did it then you'll be punished. > > If you sue a group of 10 people who are associated and you can prove that you > have a valid case against at least 9 of them (and not one of them can prove > themselves to be less guilty than the rest), then it's most likely that > you'll get a judgement against all 10 of them. > > Having your email blocked by an anti-spam service does not compare to being > locked in a cell with a group of sex-starved bikers... It doesn't even > compare with the penalties you may face under civil law if you get sued. That would be debatable... how about loss of business due to hindering/halting/imparing/interferring/your-own-word here business communications? You are only looking at a personal level... okay... if you can't get email from your best friend that lives in Asia, the loss is only to you, and to the other people that can't get their communications to/from Asia properly. How about if a large multinational firm suddenly loses communications with a large portion of it's customers living in Asia, because a militant RBL suddenly decides to block it's upstream or the country (not them sending spam)? True... the blocks can be worked around (relaying the mail through other mail servers not in Asia, etc.), but it still takes time, during which the loss of business could be pretty big. I'm just trying to put the "other" side of the argument in. I get spam.. i certainly get my fair share of it every day. But justifying everything by saying "it's collateral damage, deal with it" just isn't an acceptable solution. By using a non-militant or not-so-militant list, okay... you may get a bit more spam... but the question is... do you think it is more acceptable to lose an email, rather than get a spam message a day? Personally, I would probably accept 2 or 3 spams more by using a non-militant and less "aggressive" list, to make sure I have nearly 99-100% of my legit email. Then again... some people will be willing to lose legit email to block nearly all spam. It's a trade-off... and both personally and business-wise, I don't think I'm willing to sacrifice legitimate email for the sake of deleting some spams in return by using less aggressive lists.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:02, Jason Lim wrote: > As I said in a previous email: > > - > It was once said that it is better to let off 10 criminals than to put 1 > innocent man in jail. > > You, on the other hand, suggest it is better to put 10 innocent men in > jail for 1 criminal. > > Interesting thought. > - That only applies for criminal law where guilt has to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt". In civil law it's the "balance of probabilities", so if it's "most likely" that you did it then you'll be punished. If you sue a group of 10 people who are associated and you can prove that you have a valid case against at least 9 of them (and not one of them can prove themselves to be less guilty than the rest), then it's most likely that you'll get a judgement against all 10 of them. Having your email blocked by an anti-spam service does not compare to being locked in a cell with a group of sex-starved bikers... It doesn't even compare with the penalties you may face under civil law if you get sued. -- I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software. If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the >From field.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> the same problem occurs for anyone unfortunate enough to use a clueless > or spamhaus ISP. it's got NOTHING to do with the fact that it's asian. > spamhaus and open relay ISP's *MUST* be blacklisted regardless of what > continent they are on. Then please... go ahead and block rackspace netblocks, along with Sprint (they sign pink slips with spammers according to Spews), Level 3 (they regularly have spammers in their netblocks) don't want to block them? DARE not to block them? > the answer is the same regardless: FIND A CLUEFUL AND HONOURABLE ISP. Like I said... time and again... PROVE that iAdvantage in the last 6 months has had more complaints than similiar-sized ISPs... and if you can't, then block all the USA ISPs of similar size (it was YOU who said you don't care what continent they are on, right?). I'd tell you to then block similar sized ISP and network providers in AU and NZ, but none compare in size except for Telstra, and even they aren't in that field much. > if you don't want to do that then you'll just have to accept the fact > that some sites are going to reject your mail. tough luck. shit > happens. deal with it. As I said in a previous email: - It was once said that it is better to let off 10 criminals than to put 1 innocent man in jail. You, on the other hand, suggest it is better to put 10 innocent men in jail for 1 criminal. Interesting thought. - > > > Or maybe you don't have Asian friends that live in Asia. > > irrelevant. like many people i don't want mail from any open relay or > spamhaus, regardless of what continent they happen to be in. Oh... if you can't communicate with your friends, business partners, relatives, etc. in Asia, I think somehow that you'd care a little more. Perhaps because things don't affect you, you don't care, just like more people. It's gotta hit you on the head before you care. Maybe you are like like many Americans that didn't care about terrorists, even though bombings and terror were affecting people in Ireland and other parts of the world on a daily basis, UNTIL it hits them straight on in the face. Then they suddenly care. Maybe if communications to Asia is important to you, and suddenly you find that you cannot communicate with people important to you in Asia, you'd care a little too. > > > > How narrow minded. > > how selfish of you to insist that fighting spam is less important than > your decision to use a clueless or spamhaus ISP. How sad that you think it is worthwhile to put 1 innocent man in jail, so you can jail 10 criminals. Again... perhaps you'd care a bit more, if you were that man.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 04:49:28PM +1200, thing wrote: > what would be the feature syntax in sendmail.mc for using osirusoft > please? im in NZ and sick to death of being spammed from asia i'm not sure. it's been a few years since i used sendmail. my guess is that it would be something like: FEATURE(RBL,`relays.osirusoft.com')dnl but you'll have to ask a sendmail expert to be sure. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 02:46:55PM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > amusingly, however, you completely discredit your line of argument > > by suggesting that bl.spamcop.net is a viable substitute. > > bl.spamcop.net isn't even a good RBL let alone any kind of a > > substitute for osirusoft, their moronic automation policies (and > > inevitably inadequate automation software) result in an enormous > > number of false positives. to put it bluntly, anyone using > > bl.spamcop.net is either running only a tiny personal mail server or > > is a complete barking moron. or both. > > YOU have a chip on YOUR shoulder about the spamcop RBL. this is not > the first time you have bitched about them in public. actually, it's the second time i've responded to your cretinous suggestion that bl.spamcop.net is worth using. > > your sole complaint against osirusoft is that they list numerous > > open relays and spam-sources in Asia which (potentially?) affects > > you personally. tough luck. find yourself an ISP which a) has a > > clue about running & securing mail servers and b) doesn't allow open > > relays or spammers on their network. > > And what if someone does business in Asia? Oh... your braindead > solution of "find another ISP" doesn't cut it for business. Basically > you'd be telling people to "move out of Asia" instead? the same problem occurs for anyone unfortunate enough to use a clueless or spamhaus ISP. it's got NOTHING to do with the fact that it's asian. spamhaus and open relay ISP's *MUST* be blacklisted regardless of what continent they are on. the answer is the same regardless: FIND A CLUEFUL AND HONOURABLE ISP. if you don't want to do that then you'll just have to accept the fact that some sites are going to reject your mail. tough luck. shit happens. deal with it. > Or maybe you don't have Asian friends that live in Asia. irrelevant. like many people i don't want mail from any open relay or spamhaus, regardless of what continent they happen to be in. > How narrow minded. how selfish of you to insist that fighting spam is less important than your decision to use a clueless or spamhaus ISP. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > > > > > SO... if you plan on receiving email from me or Asia, I suggest you > > use > > > > RBLs with clear listing and removal policies and methods (eg. the RBLs > > I > > > > listed above, and others), > > > > > > This is a good policy. Using DNSBL's that don't have some > > > resolution method for a black listing is risky. However, osirusoft > > > does have a resolution policy, contrary to your complaint. > > > > No they don't... > > Yes, they do. We can go back and forth on this all day, but they > do have a resolution policy. The fact that you don't LIKE that > resolution policy, or that you PERSONALLY cannot satisfy the > requirements of that policy, doesn't mean they don't have one. If you call jumping off a building a resolution method, I don't. Telling people to go to NANAE only breeds hatred and bad feelings for everyone, since the regulars in that list will just flame you to kingdom come, whoever you are. What I call a resolution method are those used by ORDB.org, SPAMCOP.net, VISI.com, and plenty of other ones. > > > Simply fix the problem, then ask for a retest. If you retest OK, > > > then you get taken off the BL. > > > > Not possible. Joe has not listed iAdvantage as an open relay, nor anything > > that you can get off. > > Which means, quite simply, that iAdvantage hosts spammers, and refuses > to remove them. If you'd go the newgroup that Joe Jared tells you to go to in his listing, you'd see the so called "large amount" of complaints about iAdvantage. Have you actually looked? > > you can visit > > the militany NANAE newsgroup for resolution, but if you take a look at the > > messages there ugh... swearing at each other, threats, etc. Take a > > look for yourself. > > Been there. Seen it. There are two sides to this issue, and when > you put 'em both on the same news group, you'd better expect > flames, especially when they are so totally diametrically opposed. This only supports my previous statment that telling people to go to NANAE for so-called resolution is a farce. > > > Mind you, lists like xbl.selwerd.cx have neither a resolution policy, > > > NOR a nomination policy. An ip address can end up being black > > > listed simply because some OTHER ip address initiated some spam. > > > > > > Now there is a list to REALLY complain about! > > > > Well, I don't think many people are really go and use xbl.selwerd.cx. > > It would be a poor idea to use it as a BL. Even they don't use > their own list to block, just to provide "warnings" (supposedly). > > There are plenty of super militany groups like selwerd like blars.org (i > > think?) and others. > > blars, like selward, lists entire net blocks. As I said, I find this > far to fanatical for my personal taste. Shall I remind you that OSIRUSOFT is blocking entire net blocks? A large chunk of traffic from HK, in fact. > > > > Sure they are. relays.osirusoft.com is a combination of other RBLS like > > spews, > > Oh! I see what you meant, now. Yes, you are correct. > > That's what I meant by a little cross fertilization. But, most of > the RBL's queried by the query page are not feeds into osirusoft's list. Yeap... i know. When I talk about "relays.osirusoft.com" I'm not actually referring to their rblcheck utility... I am 99.9% of the time referring to their actual block list. > > > and also Joe Jared's own personal list. It is Joe Jared's own > > personal list that is the problem . . . > > A problem for . . . who? You, personally? Shouldn't that be a problem for you as well? You are using a list that is contrived by a single person, including his own biased opinions, etc. Are you willing to let your orgainization's communications be controlled by a single person's biased opinions? As I said, I FULLY SUPPORT blocking of abused open relays (ala ORDB and many others), and individual IPs (ala Spamcop and many others), but not the full blocking of netblocks or countries (ala Blars, xslwerard, osirusoft, etc.). There are plenty of good RBLs to use... see http://www.declude.com/JunkMail/Support/ip4r.htm for a big list. It's not as if osirusoft is your only option... why you defend them so much eludes me, especially with so many better lists out there. > > I just did. mail.iadvantage.net resolves to: > > 202.85.170.67 > > When I query 202.85.170.67 against relays.osirusoft.com, a > 127.0.0.4 is returned. > > And since this MTA is being used by spammers and spamvertisers, > it is quite reasonably black listed. Nope... not "THIS" mta... you mean the entire net blocks? try 202.85.169.1 and many others around that http://openrbl.org/ip/202/85/169/1.htm 202.85.153-178.* is being blocked, along with a lot more 203.194.128-191 .* is another As you can see, a good amount of HK is being blocked by OSIRUSOFT... a lot of HK that has nothing to do with spam. iAdvantage specialize in providing redudant bandwidth... so everyone that uses them is being blocked. > Therefore, osirusoft DOES have a resolut
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 02:42:24PM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > > > > > SO... if you plan on receiving email from me or Asia, I suggest you > use > > > RBLs with clear listing and removal policies and methods (eg. the RBLs > I > > > listed above, and others), > > > > This is a good policy. Using DNSBL's that don't have some > > resolution method for a black listing is risky. However, osirusoft > > does have a resolution policy, contrary to your complaint. > > No they don't... Yes, they do. We can go back and forth on this all day, but they do have a resolution policy. The fact that you don't LIKE that resolution policy, or that you PERSONALLY cannot satisfy the requirements of that policy, doesn't mean they don't have one. > > Simply fix the problem, then ask for a retest. If you retest OK, > > then you get taken off the BL. > > Not possible. Joe has not listed iAdvantage as an open relay, nor anything > that you can get off. Which means, quite simply, that iAdvantage hosts spammers, and refuses to remove them. > Hence there is no resolution method ... Sure there is . . . for iAdvantage. > you can visit > the militany NANAE newsgroup for resolution, but if you take a look at the > messages there ugh... swearing at each other, threats, etc. Take a > look for yourself. Been there. Seen it. There are two sides to this issue, and when you put 'em both on the same news group, you'd better expect flames, especially when they are so totally diametrically opposed. > > Mind you, lists like xbl.selwerd.cx have neither a resolution policy, > > NOR a nomination policy. An ip address can end up being black > > listed simply because some OTHER ip address initiated some spam. > > > > Now there is a list to REALLY complain about! > > Well, I don't think many people are really go and use xbl.selwerd.cx. It would be a poor idea to use it as a BL. Even they don't use their own list to block, just to provide "warnings" (supposedly). > There are plenty of super militany groups like selwerd like blars.org (i > think?) and others. blars, like selward, lists entire net blocks. As I said, I find this far to fanatical for my personal taste. > > > and not relays.osirusoft.com (OR if you must > > > use osirusoft, then use the pick and choose the individual RBLs under > > > relays.orisusoft.com, > > > > What are you talking about? There isn't, as far as I know, a "list of > > RBL's under relays.osirusoft.com". If you are refering to the ability > > to query a number of DNSBL's through: > > > > http://relays.osirusoft.com/cgi-bin/rbcheck.cgi > > Sure they are. relays.osirusoft.com is a combination of other RBLS like > spews, Oh! I see what you meant, now. Yes, you are correct. That's what I meant by a little cross fertilization. But, most of the RBL's queried by the query page are not feeds into osirusoft's list. > and also Joe Jared's own personal list. It is Joe Jared's own > personal list that is the problem . . . A problem for . . . who? You, personally? > > No, osirusoft does NOT combine a great many RBL's together, though > > there does appear to be some cross fertilization between the various > > lists. > > I beg to differ. Alternatively, go there, and enter, just for example, > mailserv.iadvantage.net. I just did. mail.iadvantage.net resolves to: 202.85.170.67 When I query 202.85.170.67 against relays.osirusoft.com, a 127.0.0.4 is returned. And since this MTA is being used by spammers and spamvertisers, it is quite reasonably black listed. DNSBL's cannot pick and choose between users of a single MTA. Therefore, osirusoft DOES have a resolution policy. Get iAdvantage to terminate the accounts of its spammers, make sure its servers are secure, ask for retest for forms sake, then request that they be removed. But so long as spammers are using the SAME MTA as you are, you will be black listed, because quite simply, DNSBL's cannot differentiate between "good" users and "bad" users of the same MTA. John S.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > > I have communicated with Joe Jared on this (not using real > > identification), and while I won't divulge the private communications > > on a > > public list, the general jist is "i don't get legit emails from Asia, > > nor > > do people that use my list. So I could block all of Asia and no one > > would > > care". Those of you that use joe jared's list should be aware of his > > opinions. > > Not going to divulge private commnications, then you go on to do that, > only better yet, you get to paraphrase as you wish. Assuming you even > did have some "communication". I made a remark... i did not divuldge private communications. Take it whatever way you wish. > Why did you feel it necessary to do that without "real identification"? > Why not put your name on it? > > The better your question, the better your answer. Why should I reveal my real name? Who's to say "Joe Jared" is HIS real name? Anyway, I wanted to get some truths about what was going on... even SPEWS, one of the most militant groups, and all the other "RBLs for spam sources" are not listing iAdvantage now. Why would osirusoft pick it up just recently? Anyway... looking at your arguments concerning Spam in the past: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cfm%40maine.com+spam&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&; oe=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=20020502134542.GB23194%40maine.com&rnum=1 AND I QUOTE: -- Collateral damage is, however, the only leverage one has get some of these spam friendly ISPs and lazy admins to enforce reasonable use. -- It was once said that it is better to let off 10 criminals than to put 1 innocent man in jail. You, on the other hand, suggest it is better to put 10 innocent men in jail for 1 criminal. Interesting thought. Perhaps none of your users need to communicate with Asia, including China, Hong Kong, Korea, etc. I don't think you have many/any international businesses using your services if the above statment by you is true. It would be funny if one of the branches of a company in Asia cannot even send email to their other branches because of your "strictest possible RBL".
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> you seem to have a chip on YOUR shoulder about the osirusoft RBLs. this > is not the first time you have bitched about them in public. Yes... yes I do. I will bitch about things that I see are bad, and try and do things about it (like offer better alternatives). Perhaps you are one to sit on your ass and do nothing. > amusingly, however, you completely discredit your line of argument by > suggesting that bl.spamcop.net is a viable substitute. bl.spamcop.net > isn't even a good RBL let alone any kind of a substitute for osirusoft, > their moronic automation policies (and inevitably inadequate automation > software) result in an enormous number of false positives. to put it > bluntly, anyone using bl.spamcop.net is either running only a tiny > personal mail server or is a complete barking moron. or both. YOU have a chip on YOUR shoulder about the spamcop RBL. this is not the first time you have bitched about them in public. > > your sole complaint against osirusoft is that they list numerous open > relays and spam-sources in Asia which (potentially?) affects you > personally. tough luck. find yourself an ISP which a) has a clue about > running & securing mail servers and b) doesn't allow open relays or > spammers on their network. And what if someone does business in Asia? Oh... your braindead solution of "find another ISP" doesn't cut it for business. Basically you'd be telling people to "move out of Asia" instead? Or maybe you don't have Asian friends that live in Asia. How narrow minded.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
> > > SO... if you plan on receiving email from me or Asia, I suggest you use > > RBLs with clear listing and removal policies and methods (eg. the RBLs I > > listed above, and others), > > This is a good policy. Using DNSBL's that don't have some > resolution method for a black listing is risky. However, osirusoft > does have a resolution policy, contrary to your complaint. No they don't... > Simply fix the problem, then ask for a retest. If you retest OK, > then you get taken off the BL. Not possible. Joe has not listed iAdvantage as an open relay, nor anything that you can get off. Hence there is no resolution method... you can visit the militany NANAE newsgroup for resolution, but if you take a look at the messages there ugh... swearing at each other, threats, etc. Take a look for yourself. > Mind you, lists like xbl.selwerd.cx have neither a resolution policy, > NOR a nomination policy. An ip address can end up being black > listed simply because some OTHER ip address initiated some spam. > > Now there is a list to REALLY complain about! Well, I don't think many people are really go and use xbl.selwerd.cx. There are plenty of super militany groups like selwerd like blars.org (i think?) and others. > > and not relays.osirusoft.com (OR if you must > > use osirusoft, then use the pick and choose the individual RBLs under > > relays.orisusoft.com, > > What are you talking about? There isn't, as far as I know, a "list of > RBL's under relays.osirusoft.com". If you are refering to the ability > to query a number of DNSBL's through: > > http://relays.osirusoft.com/cgi-bin/rbcheck.cgi Sure they are. relays.osirusoft.com is a combination of other RBLS like spews, and also Joe Jared's own personal list. It is Joe Jared's own personal list that is the problem... NOT Spews, NOT the other RBLs. > then please realize that the list of DNSBL's that is generated by a > query through this tool are NOT "under" osirusoft.com in any way, > shape or form. Yes... this one is. > > otherwise you'll be using a list that combines many > > other RBLs together, > > No, osirusoft does NOT combine a great many RBL's together, though > there does appear to be some cross fertilization between the various > lists. > I beg you to differ. Alternatively, go there, and enter, just for example, mailserv.iadvantage.net. Try and find another list that has mailserv.iadvantage.net and see for yourself. > > including militant ones and other shoddy ones).
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
what would be the feature syntax in sendmail.mc for using osirusoft please? im in NZ and sick to death of being spammed from asia :] regards Thing Craig Sanders wrote: > you seem to have a chip on YOUR shoulder about the osirusoft RBLs. this > is not the first time you have bitched about them in public. > > amusingly, however, you completely discredit your line of argument by > suggesting that bl.spamcop.net is a viable substitute. bl.spamcop.net > isn't even a good RBL let alone any kind of a substitute for osirusoft, > their moronic automation policies (and inevitably inadequate automation > software) result in an enormous number of false positives. to put it > bluntly, anyone using bl.spamcop.net is either running only a tiny > personal mail server or is a complete barking moron. or both. > > your sole complaint against osirusoft is that they list numerous open > relays and spam-sources in Asia which (potentially?) affects you > personally. tough luck. find yourself an ISP which a) has a clue about > running & securing mail servers and b) doesn't allow open relays or > spammers on their network. > > craig > > -- > craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Fabricati Diem, PVNC. > -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 12:27:08PM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > Dear Russel (and anyone else who is using relays.osirusoft.com), > > Because you are using the combined RBL relays.osirusoft.com, and since Joe > Jared (single operator of relays.osirusoft) has a documented chip on his > shoulder against Asia and iAdvantage (upstream, one of the largest > bandwidth carriers in HK), you'll be missing email from a lot of Asia. There are some DNSBL that block nearly all of Asia. That is because: 1) So very much spam either originates or is relayed through Asian ISP's. 2) Not one Asian ISP has ever responded to any of the spam complaints. Nor, evidently, do they respond to anybody else's spam complaints, either. > Might I suggest 3 effective alternatives (there are many others, but these > ones I've tested and are good): > > relays.visi.com > relays.ordb.org > bl.spamcop.net I use the last two, as well as osirusoft. And my spam input has dropped dramatically since configuring my server to query three DNSBL's. However, in the spirit of keeping my communications as open as possible, I'll switch to visi from osirusoft for a week. If my spam intake doesn't noticably go up, fine. If not, back to osirusoft. > SO... if you plan on receiving email from me or Asia, I suggest you use > RBLs with clear listing and removal policies and methods (eg. the RBLs I > listed above, and others), This is a good policy. Using DNSBL's that don't have some resolution method for a black listing is risky. However, osirusoft does have a resolution policy, contrary to your complaint. Simply fix the problem, then ask for a retest. If you retest OK, then you get taken off the BL. Mind you, lists like xbl.selwerd.cx have neither a resolution policy, NOR a nomination policy. An ip address can end up being black listed simply because some OTHER ip address initiated some spam. Now there is a list to REALLY complain about! > and not relays.osirusoft.com (OR if you must > use osirusoft, then use the pick and choose the individual RBLs under > relays.orisusoft.com, What are you talking about? There isn't, as far as I know, a "list of RBL's under relays.osirusoft.com". If you are refering to the ability to query a number of DNSBL's through: http://relays.osirusoft.com/cgi-bin/rbcheck.cgi then please realize that the list of DNSBL's that is generated by a query through this tool are NOT "under" osirusoft.com in any way, shape or form. This page is simply a tool, provided as a courtesy, that allows the user to test a single IP address against a great many open DNSBL's. > otherwise you'll be using a list that combines many > other RBLs together, No, osirusoft does NOT combine a great many RBL's together, though there does appear to be some cross fertilization between the various lists. > including militant ones and other shoddy ones). http://relays.osirusoft.com/cgi-bin/rbcheck.cgi is not a list of all of the sources that feed into osirusoft. If it were, then I could not use osirusoft, because one of the BL's queried by this tool lists MY address! [ And, no, I've never spammed, nor is my MTA an open relay . . . the guy who runs xbl.selwerd.cx simply lists every IP address owned by the company if *ANY* IP address owned by that company has ever spammed . . . and I buy my net connection from AT&T, one of the biggest cable modem connection providers in the US of A. ] John S.
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
you seem to have a chip on YOUR shoulder about the osirusoft RBLs. this is not the first time you have bitched about them in public. amusingly, however, you completely discredit your line of argument by suggesting that bl.spamcop.net is a viable substitute. bl.spamcop.net isn't even a good RBL let alone any kind of a substitute for osirusoft, their moronic automation policies (and inevitably inadequate automation software) result in an enormous number of false positives. to put it bluntly, anyone using bl.spamcop.net is either running only a tiny personal mail server or is a complete barking moron. or both. your sole complaint against osirusoft is that they list numerous open relays and spam-sources in Asia which (potentially?) affects you personally. tough luck. find yourself an ISP which a) has a clue about running & securing mail servers and b) doesn't allow open relays or spammers on their network. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 12:27:08PM +1000, Jason Lim wrote: > Dear Russel (and anyone else who is using relays.osirusoft.com), > Jared (single operator of relays.osirusoft) has a documented chip on > his > shoulder against Asia and iAdvantage (upstream, one of the largest ... > > I have communicated with Joe Jared on this (not using real > identification), and while I won't divulge the private communications > on a > public list, the general jist is "i don't get legit emails from Asia, > nor > do people that use my list. So I could block all of Asia and no one > would > care". Those of you that use joe jared's list should be aware of his > opinions. Not going to divulge private commnications, then you go on to do that, only better yet, you get to paraphrase as you wish. Assuming you even did have some "communication". Why did you feel it necessary to do that without "real identification"? Why not put your name on it? Maybe he just has a good bullshit radar. And yes, you can quote me. :-) The better your question, the better your answer. -- Christopher F. Miller, Publisher [EMAIL PROTECTED] MaineStreet Communications, Inc 208 Portland Road, Gray, ME 04039 1.207.657.5078 http://www.maine.com/ Content/site management, online commerce, internet integration, Debian linux
Re: failure notice (about relays.osirusoft.com)
Dear Russel (and anyone else who is using relays.osirusoft.com), Because you are using the combined RBL relays.osirusoft.com, and since Joe Jared (single operator of relays.osirusoft) has a documented chip on his shoulder against Asia and iAdvantage (upstream, one of the largest bandwidth carriers in HK), you'll be missing email from a lot of Asia. Might I suggest 3 effective alternatives (there are many others, but these ones I've tested and are good): relays.ordb.org relays.visi.com bl.spamcop.net All of these block spam effectively, and yet all of the above ones clearly list their "listing policies" and "removal policies" on their respective websites, unlike osirusoft that just says "visit nanae" as a solution. Funny thing is... if you do click on the link Joe Jared setup pointing to Google, you'll notice that the number of complaints pales in comparison to those against Rackspace and other large USA hosting and ISPs. The block he has setup blocks about 40-50% of active IP space in HK overall. He wouldn't dare block Rackspace or all that because they are in the USA and are large, and I bet people using his list would drop him like flies if he were to do that (which he should... rackspace is a proven spamhaven, but won't). I have communicated with Joe Jared on this (not using real identification), and while I won't divulge the private communications on a public list, the general jist is "i don't get legit emails from Asia, nor do people that use my list. So I could block all of Asia and no one would care". Those of you that use joe jared's list should be aware of his opinions. SO... if you plan on receiving email from me or Asia, I suggest you use RBLs with clear listing and removal policies and methods (eg. the RBLs I listed above, and others), and not relays.osirusoft.com (OR if you must use osirusoft, then use the pick and choose the individual RBLs under relays.orisusoft.com, otherwise you'll be using a list that combines many other RBLs together, including militant ones and other shoddy ones). Sincerely, Jason - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 11:30 AM Subject: failure notice > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at beta.zentek.net. > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > 203.36.46.209 does not like recipient. > Remote host said: 554 Service unavailable; [203.194.146.7] blocked using relays.osirusoft.com, reason: IADVANTAGE http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&scoring=d&q=IADVAN TAGE+ Visit nanae for removal > Giving up on 203.36.46.209. > > --- Below this line is a copy of the message. > > Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Received: (qmail 24127 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2002 01:29:56 - > Received: from unknown (HELO zentekgateway) (150.101.192.86) > by 203.194.146.32 with SMTP; 18 Aug 2002 01:29:56 - > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: "Jason Lim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > From: "Jason Lim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Russell Coker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > "Debian ISP" > References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:41:59 +1000 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600. > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600. >
