Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
onsdagen den 5 mars 2003 17.19 skrev Craig Dickson: But if you're still using gcc 2.95, it obviously can't be done. I have thinking that I maybe should switch to GCC 3.2 with KDE 3.1.1, and addition try to make so my applications also work with the normal SID kdelibs. The only differences are the dependencies, and it might be that some smart shell script can fix that up. I don't want to go back to bundling everything into kdelibs4, as I have other plans with the unbundling. Karolina
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Am Wednesday 05 March 2003 09:49 schrieb Ralf Nolden: On Dienstag, 4. März 2003 21:20, Chris Cheney wrote: At this point the first thing I need to do is kick coolo so he will fix acinclude.m4.in bug that keeps s390 from being able to build. Perhaps you can convince him to make the change. :) The issue is it defaults to using lib64 as the dirname if the system has a lib64 dir at all (with no way to overide it short of patching every packages admin dir), which causes s390 builds to fail, since on s390 libqt is in lib not lib64. So either we make Qt place its libs in lib64 or fix acinclude.m4.in. What is to be desired ? If Qt needs to be changed, let Madkiss and me know so we can fix this for qt-3.1.2. acinclude.m4.in is buggy and needs to be fixed Greetings, Stephan
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Wednesday 05 March 2003 02:41, Felix Homann wrote: Hi Scott, (What does ub3r-l33t mean, seriously?) Its germish (german-english), ueber-leet, something like: more than l33t, superman, most nerdiest, the cream of the cream, the best. I think you get it by now ;-) -- -- Linus Gasser Chemin des Cèdres 1 1004 Lausanne 021 647 53 05 http://www.linusetviviane.ch --
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Dienstag, 4. März 2003 21:20, Chris Cheney wrote: At this point the first thing I need to do is kick coolo so he will fix acinclude.m4.in bug that keeps s390 from being able to build. Perhaps you can convince him to make the change. :) The issue is it defaults to using lib64 as the dirname if the system has a lib64 dir at all (with no way to overide it short of patching every packages admin dir), which causes s390 builds to fail, since on s390 libqt is in lib not lib64. So either we make Qt place its libs in lib64 or fix acinclude.m4.in. What is to be desired ? If Qt needs to be changed, let Madkiss and me know so we can fix this for qt-3.1.2. Ralf - -- We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs. - Ralf Nolden [EMAIL PROTECTED] The K Desktop Environment The KDevelop Project http://www.kde.org http://www.kdevelop.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Zbopu0nKi+w1Ky8RAp+eAJ0QniCYstwg5CnSqKp8o1FZMg2WpQCbBQjs 0t7pswqHeCjTPgjwsYUGWIw= =20v0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Sorry, this one was not meant to go to the list. It's been very late... Apologies, Felix On Wednesday 05 March 2003 02:41, Felix Homann wrote: Hi Scott, you still don't get it. So let's go through it step by step: [...]
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mittwoch, 5. März 2003 04:37, Scott C. Linnenbringer wrote: On Tuesday 04 March 2003 07:41 pm, Felix Homann wrote: Hi, whatever you guys have with each other, you both have each other's email address. Please continue flaming each other if that enriches your life experience but this list obviously doesn't care. If you decide to do so please use private email exchange and let this list unpolluted of personal related animosities. Ralf Hi Scott, you still don't get it. So let's go through it step by step: Thank you for straightening me out! I feel so enlightened! How droll. -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com - -- We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs. - Ralf Nolden [EMAIL PROTECTED] The K Desktop Environment The KDevelop Project http://www.kde.org http://www.kdevelop.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Zb/Iu0nKi+w1Ky8RAieiAJ9uTmnmOF7aCH2v4nEHrEdO8/15RgCfX/VA Wvg/qRqbuQnltC+GjnkWOeg= =/lAb -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Thanks! --Felix On Wednesday 05 March 2003 08:10, ineiti wrote: On Wednesday 05 March 2003 02:41, Felix Homann wrote: Hi Scott, (What does ub3r-l33t mean, seriously?) Its germish (german-english), ueber-leet, something like: more than l33t, superman, most nerdiest, the cream of the cream, the best. I think you get it by now ;-) -- -- Linus Gasser Chemin des Cèdres 1 1004 Lausanne 021 647 53 05 http://www.linusetviviane.ch --
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
tisdagen den 4 mars 2003 23.41 skrev Daniel Stone: We have orth's debs, which are excellent. Karolina's debs were forked, pure and simple, and it's always going to be almost impossible for anyone to support a forked solution. orth/etc happen to track our CVS, which is cool. Karolina was several billion revisions behind, and didn't believe in Conflicts/Replaces. They were a short-term stopgap, and were always intended as such. That is purely and simply incorrect. Originally I forked from CVS, in the summer 2002, but now so much is changed that it is now completely separated from CVS. I had a working KDE on debian long before the official team even started to work on making packages. As it is now I have a stable KDE for debian, as well as over 60 applications/additions. Karolina
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mittwoch, 5. März 2003 13:11, Karolina Lindqvist wrote: tisdagen den 4 mars 2003 23.41 skrev Daniel Stone: We have orth's debs, which are excellent. Karolina's debs were forked, pure and simple, and it's always going to be almost impossible for anyone to support a forked solution. orth/etc happen to track our CVS, which is cool. Karolina was several billion revisions behind, and didn't believe in Conflicts/Replaces. They were a short-term stopgap, and were always intended as such. That is purely and simply incorrect. Originally I forked from CVS, in the summer 2002, but now so much is changed that it is now completely separated from CVS. I had a working KDE on debian long before the official team even started to work on making packages. As it is now I have a stable KDE for debian, as well as over 60 applications/additions. Hi Karolina, I think the problem is that you don't have CVS access at KDE so you could directly work on the debian dirs in CVS with us. Regarding third party packages, yes, that is a bit of a problem because they work with your set (so do my backports work with my set on woody) so there's nothing much we could do about it other than applying for NM at debian and find a sponsor for our packages. Ralf Karolina - -- We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs. - Ralf Nolden [EMAIL PROTECTED] The K Desktop Environment The KDevelop Project http://www.kde.org http://www.kdevelop.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Zfpcu0nKi+w1Ky8RAiJ1AKCwabhbIBR4imcqn61PoLhi6rVTHQCgjPbq HIQ+Cvk6ZBsJCI/fsIF8sR8= =OvUs -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Karolina Lindqvist wrote: As it is now I have a stable KDE for debian, as well as over 60 applications/additions. Are your packages still built with gcc 2.95, or have you moved to gcc 3.2? I switched to the official sid packages when they got in, as it was becoming increasingly painful to keep up-to-date with other sid packages without breaking KDE due to the gcc transition. But sid is still missing some important (to me) packages such as gwenview, kgamma, and noteedit. It would be nice, if it were possible, to be able to add a few of your packages to a sid KDE3 installation. But if you're still using gcc 2.95, it obviously can't be done. Craig pgpDlf27gPPm1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 09:49:45AM +0100, Ralf Nolden wrote: So either we make Qt place its libs in lib64 or fix acinclude.m4.in. What is to be desired ? If Qt needs to be changed, let Madkiss and me know so we can fix this for qt-3.1.2. Ralf We need to fix acinclude.m4.in since its library check is braindead. I sent an email to Dirk yesterday, so hopefully he will fix it soon. Chris
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 05 Mar 2003 10:15 am, Felix Homann wrote: Thanks! --Felix On Wednesday 05 March 2003 08:10, ineiti wrote: On Wednesday 05 March 2003 02:41, Felix Homann wrote: Hi Scott, (What does ub3r-l33t mean, seriously?) This is a good link to help a bit more with the explanation. http://www.ninjalane.com/leet.aspx - -- Alan Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Zk7EuFHxcV2FFoIRAlCwAKCwCqRr/gTbdTj0i8VdedoZSJp9vgCfTuxd 22cmZh99GZhQ4/nfpmzPZ0A= =E/VW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 04 Mar 2003 6:49 pm, Chris Cheney wrote: Long story... ;) Can I also thank you for giving us that appreciation of the situation. I feel like Felix - I have a working system, by using your unofficial packages, but I would prefer if I got them properly and consistently from sid. But it does throw up one serious problem - for as an important package as KDE in Debian we are rather reliant on your hard drive, and your exams (or rather lack of them - although good luck with them anyway). On of the problems with this list is that its suposedly user oriented. Ralf raised the possibility of a kde-debian-devel list, either on debian or on kde mailing lists. Since neither have appeared I assume nothing has happened after they were first proposed. This would then have been a much more natural vehicle to raise these issues and see if anyone else could help. In particular, perhaps the ability to bring together Karolina's packaging efforts for all the other kde applications and bring them into an on official debian archive. I am sure I am not the only one who hates the problem of having to decide which side of a mutually incompatible fence to have to sit only to find you have chosen the slowest moving. - -- Alan Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ZlMDuFHxcV2FFoIRAttiAJ9DM/h1oFsMlPxRC6sCIQ3YAmXSIwCffIk2 FFOnikJ4PmEvHwwNyP2+XNs= =iuTL -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Official Debian packages will always be the slowest moving simply due to the fact of having to deal with buildds and having to ensure that the packages build on all 11 arches. Until last week KDE couldn't have been rebuilt reasonably regardless of if I had time to do it or not, qt simply wasn't ready. As far as I know all the maintainers were aware of this issue and it was even mentioned on this list, Ralf sent a message mentioning what would have to be changed to packages building against Qt. I will most likely have updated debs in sid by the end of this weekend (barring anymore computer trouble). I really wish dirk would fix the s390 bug in acinclude.m4.in already, he is aware that the bug exists but hasn't committed the 2 line fix for it. :\ Chris
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Great link, thank you! --Felix On Wednesday 05 March 2003 20:23, Alan Chandler wrote: On Wednesday 05 Mar 2003 10:15 am, Felix Homann wrote: Thanks! --Felix On Wednesday 05 March 2003 08:10, ineiti wrote: On Wednesday 05 March 2003 02:41, Felix Homann wrote: Hi Scott, (What does ub3r-l33t mean, seriously?) This is a good link to help a bit more with the explanation. http://www.ninjalane.com/leet.aspx -- Alan Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Wednesday 05 March 2003 3:29 pm, Chris Cheney wrote: Official Debian packages will always be the slowest moving simply due to the fact of having to deal with buildds and having to ensure that the packages build on all 11 arches. Chris, Thank you for keeping the list up-to-date. Jeff Elkins
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Dear Scott, thanks for your friendly comment. It's great to read such competent answers OVER and OVER and OVER again. Unfortunatly you did not even come close to answering my question. This can have a couple of reasons: 1.) You did not even read my message. Otherwise you should have noticed that I not only read the mailing list, I even gave you the date this was discussed the last time. 2.) If you have read my message, you did not understand it. 3.) You prefer to bash people. According to your own criteria I guess I could call you incompetent. But I wouldn't do that, cause maybe you've just been in a bad mood. I could guess that you had a very hard childhood (still having it?) which would justify your behaviour. But this would be just as much guessing as your comment: Sid is not meant for people, like you, who want to have things work out of the box. How should you know what I want? You don't even know/understand the question I've asked! Moreover, you are definately not the one who makes the rules for whom Sid is made... To make it a little simpler for you, let me cite my original question: Why has kdenetwork still not made it into Sid? Since you seemingly don't know the answer why do you pretend to answer at all? Apologies are welcome, Felix On Monday 03 March 2003 23:55, Scott C. Linnenbringer wrote: First of all, if you are running sid then you should be competent enough to READ THE MAILING LIST (or list archives) and FIGURE OUT that kdenetwork et cetera is at: deb http://people.debian.org/~ccheney/kde-other/ ./ I would suggest you use a distribution, like woody, that isn't in rapid development and does not require going to the archives or Google to have it work. Sid is not meant for people, like you, who want to have things work out of the box. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm just in a irritated mood with topics that have been discussed OVER and OVER and OVER again. :) -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com On Monday 03 March 2003 01:52 pm, Felix Homann wrote: Hi, once again the question: Why has kdenetwork still not made it into Sid? I think this has been discussed the last time on February 23. No answer has been given... Chris Cheney hasn't shown up on this list since February 16. Is he suffering some illness? Is he in trouble with kdenetwork? Is there anything we/I can do to help? Is he still involved in KDE packaging? ...or should I have sticked to Woody with Ralf Nolden's excellent *and complete* packages??? A short note on kdenetwork's status, hows and whys would be highly appreciated!
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
The rumor on IRC was that there is a license problem that holds kdenetwork getting into Debian. What are these license problems, I have no idea. To my knowledge, Chris Cheney has not posted on kde-policies or on any kde mailing lists on this topic. Sadly, it is not the first time that Chris Cheney has been incapable of communicating, cooperating with others and creating a team spirit. We still don't have a proper web site, Karolina's hard work is more or less wasted, progress on the Debian desktop initiative has been null and the prospect of a simple kde metapackage for easy installation for newbies seems a farfetched dream. A good maintainer for KDE in Debian should not only have good technical skills but be able to manage a team of fellows packagers, communicate to the users and power users for feedback, delegates some tasks. Ralf Nolden is good at it, Ivan Moore was good at it. Chris is much younger and don't have this experience, maybe he can learn. Indeed, if he wants to have a successfull career in IT after University, learning to be a good team manager should be his priority as it looks like it is its main weakness. Cheers, Charles -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kde-france.org
KDE metapackage (was: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?)
... and the prospect of a simple kde metapackage for easy installation for newbies seems a farfetched dream. I'll adopt meta-kde if Chris isn't taking it (it's currently orphaned, though there's no wnpp bug AFAICT). If I don't hear otherwise in a few days I'll fix it up and do a new upload. Ben.
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Thank you Charles! Regards, Felix
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
From: Jeff Elkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm a Debian newbie/refugee from RedHat and don't consider myself particularly unqualified to use Sid. And yes, I'm wondering where KDE 3.1 (complete) is and why I can't use apt-get to install it rather than compiling my own. I have searched the archives and they don't provide the info. I don't understand why this is an unreasonable question. I need to install KDE 3.1 on two slow iMac powerpc boxes and apt-get would beat the heck out of compiles. I would argue that you have absolutely no need to be using sid (which doesn't mean you shouldn't, just that it's not necessary). I have been known to download the odd thing from sid, but sarge does the job with the simple addition of: deb http://download.kde.org/stable/3.1/Debian/ stable main to your sources.
Re: KDE metapackage (was: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 04 Mar 2003 11:28, Ben Burton wrote: ... and the prospect of a simple kde metapackage for easy installation for newbies seems a farfetched dream. I'll adopt meta-kde if Chris isn't taking it (it's currently orphaned, though there's no wnpp bug AFAICT). If I don't hear otherwise in a few days I'll fix it up and do a new upload. I was going to do the same :) I asked Chris about it and he said that he was intending to upload a new meta-kde when he had got kdenetwork and kdepim into sid. Paul Cupis - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ZLRgIzuKV+SHX/kRApZ8AJ9E2+wL2qr7iSWEsguRnNB+GmOjKACeNJbO yhbPR6pGMQhu7JDd0siUDkY= =G/qW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
tisdagen den 4 mars 2003 15.43 skrev Caoilte O'Connor: Karolina's debs were excellent, and I for one will continue to use them until at least kde 3.1.1. There are packaging bugs (*blush*) and unique debian bugs. But I have fixed those I found, last week. I will also build KDE 3.1.1, as soon as it is out, maybe next week. And in between I am building more applications, or rebuilding for new upstreams versions. Karolina
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Thank you Karolina for continuing to package the latest release(s) of KDE for SID. I too (as Caolite) have been very happily running your debs and was hoping that you would be continuing to update them. As I have mentioned before, I have a backup Woody partition running Ralph's 3.1 debs and that's the release I check for bugs if necessary. On Tuesday 04 March 2003 at 7:35 am, Karolina Lindqvist wrote: tisdagen den 4 mars 2003 15.43 skrev Caoilte O'Connor: Karolina's debs were excellent, and I for one will continue to use them until at least kde 3.1.1. There are packaging bugs (*blush*) and unique debian bugs. But I have fixed those I found, last week. I will also build KDE 3.1.1, as soon as it is out, maybe next week. And in between I am building more applications, or rebuilding for new upstreams versions. Karolina -- ___ Michael Hoodes http://www.hoodes.comSeattle, WA
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Le Mardi 4 Mars 2003 16:35, Karolina Lindqvist a écrit : There are packaging bugs (*blush*) and unique debian bugs. But I have fixed those I found, last week. I will also build KDE 3.1.1, as soon as it is out, maybe next week. And in between I am building more applications, or rebuilding for new upstreams versions. Karolina Are you adamant Karolina to work on you own set of packages or would you be ready if there is a correct agreement with Chris Cheney to work on a common official set of packages ? I do understand that for learning purpose it can be nicer to work on your own but for the community, duplicating work when we have a shortage of capable packagers like you seems some kind of a waste. Cheers, Charles -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kde-france.org
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Hallo Is there anywhere Karolina's KDE3 for sid available? Am Die, 2003-03-04 um 16.35 schrieb Karolina Lindqvist: tisdagen den 4 mars 2003 15.43 skrev Caoilte O'Connor: Karolina's debs were excellent, and I for one will continue to use them until at least kde 3.1.1. There are packaging bugs (*blush*) and unique debian bugs. But I have fixed those I found, last week. I will also build KDE 3.1.1, as soon as it is out, maybe next week. And in between I am building more applications, or rebuilding for new upstreams versions. Karolina -- Sobkowiak Krzysztof [EMAIL PROTECTED] BTU-Cottbus signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Long story... ;) kdenetwork originally could not be uploaded with the rest of the KDE packages due to it building against libslp, which at the time required linking to openssl, which is not allowed to be done by a GPL app. libslp was recompiled without openssl support on Feb 7. However we then found that Qt needed to be reorganized and rebuilt which finished on Feb 25. Also sometime around Feb 14 I sold my desktop's motherboard/ram, and two laptops. After Qt was finished building I tried to move the hard drive with all my KDE related data on it to another machine to recompile all of KDE. However, grub for some reason does not like that machine and kept getting stuck in a reboot loop. I will have access to another machine this weekend and will try seeing if I can make grub boot on that one. I also have a lot of exams and projects this semester which has been taking up most of my time. I will be graduating in May finally 8). Thanks, Chris
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 08:49:10AM -0400, Derek Broughton wrote: -snip- I would argue that you have absolutely no need to be using sid (which doesn't mean you shouldn't, just that it's not necessary). I have been known to download the odd thing from sid, but sarge does the job with the simple addition I would suggest that no one run sarge at least until the libc6 blockage fixes itself. Notice that nothing (or at least almost nothing) has gone into sarge in over 6 months including security fixes. Make your own conclusions from that. :\ Chris
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 11:42:21AM +0100, Charles de Miramon wrote: The rumor on IRC was that there is a license problem that holds kdenetwork getting into Debian. What are these license problems, I have no idea. To my knowledge, Chris Cheney has not posted on kde-policies or on any kde mailing lists on this topic. It was a debian specific issue due to the fact kdenetwork uses libslp which was linked to openssl (openssl should die already). This has been resolved but was still held up due to Qt packaging being structured (see my other email). Sadly, it is not the first time that Chris Cheney has been incapable of communicating, cooperating with others and creating a team spirit. We still don't have a proper web site, Karolina's hard work is more or less wasted, progress on the Debian desktop initiative has been null and the prospect of a simple kde metapackage for easy installation for newbies seems a farfetched dream. Do we need a website? If we actually do I am not the only person who can maintain it... Ben, Daniel, Martin, Norman, Paul, and Ralf(?) all have debian accounts as well. As far as I know Karolina's manpages are supposedly being integrated upstream, someone came on irc #debian-kde (I forgot her name) talking about doing manpages in upstream KDE and I sent all the related manpages to her. If there are other things that people would like to have integrated from Karolina's work please let me know, it has been a while since I looked at them. I will also be integrating some of the changes that Orth made. What changes are needed wrt Debian Desktop? Walters has been working on a package for it, but since KDE hasn't even managed to build on all arches yet I haven't looked into what is needed yet. As far as meta-kde goes I have already stated before that it would be the last package uploaded since it wouldn't be installable until all the rest are in anyway. Hopefully I can upload it this weekend. A good maintainer for KDE in Debian should not only have good technical skill but be able to manage a team of fellows packagers, communicate to the users and power users for feedback, delegates some tasks. Ralf Nolden is good at it, Ivan Moore was good at it. Chris is much younger and don't have this experience, maybe he can learn. Indeed, if he wants to have a successfull career in IT after University, learning to be a good team manager should be his priority as it looks like it is its main weakness. I suppose Ivan might be older than me, never asked him his age. As far as communications go, I have communicated with the other packagers primarily Ben, Martin, Ralf, until Feb 25th it would have been pointless to upload any more KDE packages at all, since it would have had issues compiling. Then I had problems booting my box which I let the other maintainers know about (at least iirc). At this point the first thing I need to do is kick coolo so he will fix acinclude.m4.in bug that keeps s390 from being able to build. Perhaps you can convince him to make the change. :) The issue is it defaults to using lib64 as the dirname if the system has a lib64 dir at all (with no way to overide it short of patching every packages admin dir), which causes s390 builds to fail, since on s390 libqt is in lib not lib64. Chris
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am Dienstag, 4. März 2003 21:00 schrieb Chris Cheney: On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 08:49:10AM -0400, Derek Broughton wrote: -snip- I would argue that you have absolutely no need to be using sid (which doesn't mean you shouldn't, just that it's not necessary). I have been known to download the odd thing from sid, but sarge does the job with the simple addition I would suggest that no one run sarge at least until the libc6 blockage fixes itself. Notice that nothing (or at least almost nothing) has gone into sarge in over 6 months including security fixes. Make your own conclusions from that. :\ Hmm, that's not fully correct. Some things dropped down and surely with sarge, one has to follow the security list (e.g. cupsys) and recompile from sid which _always_ worked for me. What I mostly do not understand in this issue: what the f**k do applications (e.g. cupsys) have to do with glibc version? Almost all of them surely build and run just fine with glibc-2.2.5. But even when having no bugs, they do not drop down! This makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE because they would get rebuild for sarge then and leaving any compiler/glibc issues away from sarge. Instead, many rather go for sid, although they probably shouldn't. The release manager definitely defeat the reasons for have sarge at all. Or maybe I did not get the point here... HS - -- Mein GPG-Key ist auf meiner Homepage verfügbar: http://www.hendrik-sattler.de oder über pgp.net PingoS - Linux-User helfen Schulen: http://www.pingos.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ZSP1zvr6q9zCwcERAj0WAKC6YCiAsuVpUxfNJHwmJ4LtBiYmcgCgkPuF tZdnwPFkwMj7VAKBeExori8= =dmGr -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am Dienstag, 4. März 2003 19:49 schrieb Chris Cheney: kdenetwork originally could not be uploaded with the rest of the KDE packages due to it building against libslp, which at the time required linking to openssl, which is not allowed to be done by a GPL app. And all the years before that? I mean that those apps did not start linking to it last month. The maintainers (and obiously openssl authors) did not care for it the last months/years, so why now? HS - -- Mein GPG-Key ist auf meiner Homepage verfügbar: http://www.hendrik-sattler.de oder über pgp.net PingoS - Linux-User helfen Schulen: http://www.pingos.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ZSS7zvr6q9zCwcERAiWbAJ47CU4WwtOqEQIa54KPA0GHsWu6WACgsKwo 8B1GixVxANwt4ZKI5Y7tqgc= =yaxA -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Monday 03 March 2003 06:39 pm, Jeff Elkins wrote: I'm a Debian newbie/refugee from RedHat and don't consider myself particularly unqualified to use Sid. And yes, I'm wondering where KDE 3.1 (complete) is and why I can't use apt-get to install it rather than compiling my own. There's nothing with wrong with being a newbie. And nothing wrong with being a newbie using sid. It's just that if you require a working system that works well and never really changes radically (like gcc et cetera), then woody would be better. If you haven't had difficulties yet with sid, you will. Unless you want to take the time and effort to read mailing lists, newsgroups, Google, bugs.debian.org and the others. Sid is a great distribution for newbies (and of course gurus alike) who want to learn more about their systems and who want to face problems (which they then like to fix, or keep broken if they can't.) I have searched the archives and they don't provide the info. That's because it's sid. The reason KDE is in disarray to begin with is due to various problems (most of which not need to be reiterated.) I don't understand why this is an unreasonable question. I need to install KDE 3.1 on two slow iMac powerpc boxes and apt-get would beat the heck out of compiles. In general, my experience with Sid has been fine. Not if you need KDE and it ain't working for you. :) -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 11:42:21AM +0100, Charles de Miramon scrawled: Sadly, it is not the first time that Chris Cheney has been incapable of communicating, cooperating with others and creating a team spirit. I've never had any problems communicating with Chris, and I think the spirit of the Debian-KDE team is very much alive. We still don't have a proper web site, So create one. Karolina's hard work is more or less wasted, We have orth's debs, which are excellent. Karolina's debs were forked, pure and simple, and it's always going to be almost impossible for anyone to support a forked solution. orth/etc happen to track our CVS, which is cool. Karolina was several billion revisions behind, and didn't believe in Conflicts/Replaces. They were a short-term stopgap, and were always intended as such. We have excellent 3.1 debs created by an excellent 3.1 team, so I don't see what your problem is. progress on the Debian desktop initiative has been null So start talking to the debian-desktop people. and the prospect of a simple kde metapackage for easy installation for newbies seems a farfetched dream. So create one. A good maintainer for KDE in Debian should not only have good technical skills but be able to manage a team of fellows packagers, communicate to the users and power users for feedback, delegates some tasks. Ralf Nolden is good at it, Ivan Moore was good at it. Chris is much younger and don't have this experience, maybe he can learn. Indeed, if he wants to have a successfull career in IT after University, learning to be a good team manager should be his priority as it looks like it is its main weakness. I resent your ageism intruding into this. Chris is an excellent maintainer. Just because he doesn't have the time to answer the same question repeatedly to people who would rather complain than either fix the problem, or accept that they've done far, far less for the Debian KDE community than Chris, doesn't make him a bad maintainer. He did quite a good job of managing Ralf, David P, Ben, orth and myself under less-than-ideal circumstances and time constraints - I have absolutely no qualms with how he did this. If you're so fanatical about this, go do something. Make a website. Talk to debian-desktop. Create a metapackage, whatever. It's more productive than the email you just sent. Daniel, ex-KDE maintainer, ex-KDE co-maintainer under Chris pgpMywyhdZrqd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 11:12:11PM +0100, Hendrik Sattler wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am Dienstag, 4. März 2003 19:49 schrieb Chris Cheney: kdenetwork originally could not be uploaded with the rest of the KDE packages due to it building against libslp, which at the time required linking to openssl, which is not allowed to be done by a GPL app. And all the years before that? I mean that those apps did not start linking to it last month. The maintainers (and obiously openssl authors) did not care for it the last months/years, so why now? HS No the apps in question were not in the older KDE 2.2. Also afaik libslp had just recently started building against openssl when I caught it. Chris
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 11:08:53PM +0100, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Hmm, that's not fully correct. Some things dropped down and surely with sarge, one has to follow the security list (e.g. cupsys) and recompile from sid which _always_ worked for me. What I mostly do not understand in this issue: what the f**k do applications (e.g. cupsys) have to do with glibc version? Almost all of them surely build and run just fine with glibc-2.2.5. But even when having no bugs, they do not drop down! This makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE because they would get rebuild for sarge then and leaving any compiler/glibc issues away from sarge. Instead, many rather go for sid, although they probably shouldn't. The release manager definitely defeat the reasons for have sarge at all. Or maybe I did not get the point here... HS For a package to go into sarge it has to have less RC bugs than the current version in sarge and have been in sid for a certain amount of days depending on its severity of upload (time to see if new RC bugs crop up). Rebuilding the version for upload to sarge against sarge would be a hassle and possibly not work, also it could possibly introduce new bugs that weren't seen in the sid version, since it would be built against different versions of libraries. If the bugs in libc6 could get resolved the issue would just go away though. Chris
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Thank you, Chris, for finally giving some insight in what's going on. I thaught you wouldn't care anymore... Good luck for your exams, Felix
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tuesday 04 March 2003 03:17 am, Felix Homann wrote: Dear Scott, thanks for your friendly comment. It's great to read such competent answers OVER and OVER and OVER again. Unfortunatly you did not even come close to answering my question. This can have a couple of reasons: Oh really? 1.) You did not even read my message. Otherwise you should have noticed that I not only read the mailing list, I even gave you the date this was discussed the last time. I will give you credit there, but reading the mailing list is different from coming to the realization that no one *knows* when KDE will be completely in sid. It's sid, for christ's sake. 2.) If you have read my message, you did not understand it. I understood it perfectly. 3.) You prefer to bash people. That may be, but that was not the case in my previous message. According to your own criteria I guess I could call you incompetent. Not really, just a little angry at the constant questions of when will kde be in sid, my system is borked. The question is that no one knows the current situation very well, and the question we should be asking is whether someone needs to upload the packages in his presence. The status of KDE has been announced on this mailing list for weeks. But I wouldn't do that, cause maybe you've just been in a bad mood. Maybe. I could guess that you had a very hard childhood (still having it?) which would justify your behaviour. Now this is getting stupid and absurd. I won't even respond to such a response. But this would be just as much guessing as your comment: Sid is not meant for people, like you, who want to have things work out of the box. Maybe I jumped the gun on that comment, not knowing your true intentions, but I am a little discouraged with the same people who absolutely demand that packages be uploaded, especially when they are available elsewhere, into sid and expect a working system (remember, you said you'd just as well use Ralf Nolden's *complete* packages, right? Oh, of course you said that.) How should you know what I want? You don't even know/understand the question I've asked! heh. Moreover, you are definately not the one who makes the rules for whom Sid is made... Whoa! Who the hell said I make the rules for sid? Does that mean I'm an ub3r-l33t Debian developer as well? To make it a little simpler for you, let me cite my original question: Why has kdenetwork still not made it into Sid? That wasn't your original question. Since you seemingly don't know the answer why do you pretend to answer at all? Because I did know the answer. Not everything you're looking for, but not everything you're looking for exists. Apologies are welcome, Before we bore and frustrate the general audience, let's take this off-list. In fact, I don't feel like even making a flame war out of it to begin, so let's just not take it anywhere. Unless you want to. :) -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tuesday 04 March 2003 23:41, Daniel Stone wrote: Just because he doesn't have the time to answer the same question repeatedly to people who would rather complain than either fix the problem, or accept that they've done far, far less for the Debian KDE community than Chris, doesn't make him a bad maintainer. Well, in this case Chris didn't seem to answer the question even once, at least not on this list. Hence, if you do not know what the problem actually is how could you help fixing it? All we/I knew was that there was a problem, whatever it was. So, all that I did complain was that nobody told me/the list what the problem is. After all, I'm very happy about how soon the first official packages have been available. Hence, Chris is definetely not a bad maintainer. But it would make him a better maintainer if he decided to communicate a bit more with the users. But now that Chris has finally answered I have nothing to complain anymore. Regards, Felix
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am Dienstag, 4. März 2003 23:52 schrieb Chris Cheney: For a package to go into sarge it has to have less RC bugs than the current version in sarge and have been in sid for a certain amount of days depending on its severity of upload (time to see if new RC bugs crop up). Rebuilding the version for upload to sarge against sarge would be a hassle and possibly not work, also it could possibly introduce new bugs that weren't seen in the sid version, since it would be built against different versions of libraries. If the bugs in libc6 could get resolved the issue would just go away though. Well, that's why sarge != stable. What you say is that every update of a core lib like libc6, even a minor version change, would be a major pain. I doubt the usefulness of this. OTOH, packages that break thing drop down (e.g kde-i18n-de-3.1 which really sucks with the KDE2.2.2 in sarge and breaks lots of strings, there). Thus, translation packages should probably be bound to a range of valid binary pacakges. I know that this can cause problems but the current setting do the above with sarge :-/ HS - -- Mein GPG-Key ist auf meiner Homepage verfügbar: http://www.hendrik-sattler.de oder über pgp.net PingoS - Linux-User helfen Schulen: http://www.pingos.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ZTzjzvr6q9zCwcERAsKTAJ4lzjYnfRgP+WsxH7TjHlrA0gJjPQCfVbtf Us8R+8YxiJXetrJifFwwFJA= =yoxX -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 01:14:09AM +0100, Hendrik Sattler wrote: libslp is not the only one linking against openssl. What is the licence of libslp itself? GPL? Let's look at cupsys: some versions were linked with openssl, then some not, then again, then again not, now trying to use gnutls. Other apps simply link against it, even now. libslp is bsd licensed but having openssl linked in anywhere in the chain is a problem afaik, since it requires the two clauses below to be attached. In this case the way libslp linked to openssl required that the kdenetwork apps (krfb/krdc) link to openssl also. I am not sure if it would have been legal had libslp dlopened openssl instead (I don't think that it matters how its linked). Apps that still link against openssl that are GPL'd need to be identified so that they can either have the necessary clause added to their license (if possible) or be converted to using gnutls. The issue here isn't that you can't GPL something linking to openssl but that you must have an extra exception clause, which if you are using anything else gpl'd in your app would then be illegal (aiui). IIRC, the following words are the problem: [...] * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this *software must display the following acknowledgment: *This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project *for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit. (http://www.openssl.org/) [...] * 6. Redistributions of any form whatsoever must retain the following *acknowledgment: *This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project *for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit (http://www.openssl.org/) [...] I don't see any problem, there. OTOH, I am not a lawyer, either. Yes, I think those two clauses are the problem. With gnutls being LGPL it would be nice if everyone would slowly convert to using it instead. The openssl advertising clause will never be changed, and aiui can not be by its original author due to personal matters. Chris
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am Mittwoch, 5. März 2003 01:45 schrieb Chris Cheney: Yes, I think those two clauses are the problem. With gnutls being LGPL it would be nice if everyone would slowly convert to using it instead. The openssl advertising clause will never be changed, and aiui can not be by its original author due to personal matters. I know, it's sad. openssl is pretty stable and now gnutls comes along, probably still with lots of things to do. HS - -- Mein GPG-Key ist auf meiner Homepage verfügbar: http://www.hendrik-sattler.de oder über pgp.net PingoS - Linux-User helfen Schulen: http://www.pingos.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ZVSVzvr6q9zCwcERApHqAJsGtgOUDYlfeFDaX88DyxyLu4jSSgCfeYis Ty6gXkq+Bx8mh9aZsWq9u4Y= =5bm9 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Hi Scott, you still don't get it. So let's go through it step by step: On Tuesday 04 March 2003 23:18, Scott C. Linnenbringer wrote: On Tuesday 04 March 2003 03:17 am, Felix Homann wrote: Dear Scott, thanks for your friendly comment. It's great to read such competent answers OVER and OVER and OVER again. Unfortunatly you did not even come close to answering my question. This can have a couple of reasons: Oh really? 1.) You did not even read my message. Otherwise you should have noticed that I not only read the mailing list, I even gave you the date this was discussed the last time. I will give you credit there, but reading the mailing list is different from coming to the realization that no one *knows* when KDE will be completely in sid. It's sid, for christ's sake. Never have I asked *when*, the question was *why* kdenetwork isn't in Sid yet. Thus, I'm still not convinced you had read my original message. Have you by now? 2.) If you have read my message, you did not understand it. I understood it perfectly. You haven't yet! 3.) You prefer to bash people. That may be, but that was not the case in my previous message. According to your own criteria I guess I could call you incompetent. Not really, just a little angry at the constant questions of when will kde be in sid, my system is borked. The question is that no one knows the current situation very well, and the question we should be asking is whether someone needs to upload the packages in his presence. The status of KDE has been announced on this mailing list for weeks. No, no, no! Chris knows the current situation very well. He just did not tell the list what was going on. Now he has and I'm pretty fine. The current status of kdenetwork has not been clarified on this list until Chris' answer in this thread. And again, no when in my question. But I wouldn't do that, cause maybe you've just been in a bad mood. Maybe. I could guess that you had a very hard childhood (still having it?) which would justify your behaviour. Now this is getting stupid and absurd. I won't even respond to such a response. But this would be just as much guessing as your comment: Sid is not meant for people, like you, who want to have things work out of the box. Maybe I jumped the gun on that comment, not knowing your true intentions, but I am a little discouraged with the same people who absolutely demand that packages be uploaded, especially when they are available elsewhere, into sid and expect a working system (remember, you said you'd just as well use Ralf Nolden's *complete* packages, right? Oh, of course you said that.) Well, my system *is* working perfectly. I *am* using Chris' kdenetwork packages and have no complain about the packages. But I would like a consistent Sid, i.e. as much packages as possible from official sources. Currently kde (read: kdenetwork) in Sid is broken. Last comment on the list was the packages were held up by the ftp-masters. I wanted to know why, and if this still was the case! Nothing more, nothing less. How should you know what I want? You don't even know/understand the question I've asked! heh. Moreover, you are definately not the one who makes the rules for whom Sid is made... Whoa! Who the hell said I make the rules for sid? Does that mean I'm an ub3r-l33t Debian developer as well? At least, it was *you* who told me Sid wasn't made for *me*! Since I can't find anything like that in the policies it must have been you making that rule! (What does ub3r-l33t mean, seriously?) To make it a little simpler for you, let me cite my original question: Why has kdenetwork still not made it into Sid? That wasn't your original question. Yes, it was. Here, for your convenience, again, copied from my original mail: Hi, once again the question: Why has kdenetwork still not made it into Sid? Don't confuse the subject with the question. The subject Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris? was chosen in order to reflect its relation to the thread Where is kdenetwork?, the very thread you assumed I had not read. Since you seemingly don't know the answer why do you pretend to answer at all? Because I did know the answer. Not everything you're looking for, but not everything you're looking for exists. Assuming you have known *why* kdenetwork still isn't in Sid, why have you not chosen to tell me and the list? I think it's more an Douglas Adams like situation: You might have known an answer but not the question... Apologies are welcome, Before we bore and frustrate the general audience, let's take this off-list. In fact, I don't feel like even making a flame war out of it to begin, so let's just not take it anywhere. Unless you want to. :) -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com Got it now? Probably not, but who cares? Nevertheless, Kind regards, Felix
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tuesday 04 March 2003 07:41 pm, Felix Homann wrote: Hi Scott, you still don't get it. So let's go through it step by step: Thank you for straightening me out! I feel so enlightened! How droll. -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Tuesday 04 March 2003 05:47 pm, Felix Homann wrote: On Tuesday 04 March 2003 23:41, Daniel Stone wrote: Just because he doesn't have the time to answer the same question repeatedly to people who would rather complain than either fix the problem, or accept that they've done far, far less for the Debian KDE community than Chris, doesn't make him a bad maintainer. Well, in this case Chris didn't seem to answer the question even once, at least not on this list. Hence, if you do not know what the problem actually is how could you help fixing it? All we/I knew was that there was a problem, whatever it was. So, all that I did complain was that nobody told me/the list what the problem is. After all, I'm very happy about how soon the first official packages have been available. Hence, Chris is definetely not a bad maintainer. But it would make him a better maintainer if he decided to communicate a bit more with the users. But now that Chris has finally answered I have nothing to complain anymore. Pfft. Debian developers are not under obligations to maintain contact on a daily basis, or even weekly basis. I have heard nothing but complaints from people who EXPECT that sid work unborkingly. If you're going to run sid, then expect that packages are delayed. The developers aren't being paid, and many need to hold a job (like everyone else) in the real world to survive. And if the simple answer, which WAS THE ONLY ANSWER, is that kdenetwork is being held up for an unknown reason, then accept that reason and either fix it or live with it. And don't tell me your original post was not demanding, it certainly was. -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com
Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
Hi, once again the question: Why has kdenetwork still not made it into Sid? I think this has been discussed the last time on February 23. No answer has been given... Chris Cheney hasn't shown up on this list since February 16. Is he suffering some illness? Is he in trouble with kdenetwork? Is there anything we/I can do to help? Is he still involved in KDE packaging? ...or should I have sticked to Woody with Ralf Nolden's excellent *and complete* packages??? A short note on kdenetwork's status, hows and whys would be highly appreciated! Regards, Felix
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
On Monday 03 March 2003 01:52 pm, Felix Homann wrote: Hi, once again the question: Why has kdenetwork still not made it into Sid? I think this has been discussed the last time on February 23. No answer has been given... Chris Cheney hasn't shown up on this list since February 16. Is he suffering some illness? Is he in trouble with kdenetwork? Is there anything we/I can do to help? Is he still involved in KDE packaging? ...or should I have sticked to Woody with Ralf Nolden's excellent *and complete* packages??? A short note on kdenetwork's status, hows and whys would be highly appreciated! First of all, if you are running sid then you should be competent enough to READ THE MAILING LIST (or list archives) and FIGURE OUT that kdenetwork et cetera is at: deb http://people.debian.org/~ccheney/kde-other/ ./ I would suggest you use a distribution, like woody, that isn't in rapid development and does not require going to the archives or Google to have it work. Sid is not meant for people, like you, who want to have things work out of the box. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm just in a irritated mood with topics that have been discussed OVER and OVER and OVER again. :) -- Scott C. Linnenbringer finger sl at eskimo.com
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
First of all, if you are running sid then you should be competent enough to READ THE MAILING LIST (or list archives) and FIGURE OUT that kdenetwork et cetera is at: deb http://people.debian.org/~ccheney/kde-other/ ./ Unfortunetly, not etcetera. I.e., specifically it is missing all of kdepim, and (I think) some of kdenetwork. I would suggest you use a distribution, like woody, that isn't in rapid development and does not require going to the archives or Google to have it work. Sid is not meant for people, like you, who want to have things work out of the box. No amount of reading the list of googling would have given the answer to the question he asked, which was, when is the rest of kde going into sid?. Actually, he showed the ability to search archives when he looked up the rebuttal to this. It hasn't been discussed over and over *by the people who can answer his question*. Chris hasn't posted to this mailing list in almost three weeks. IIRC, his last email or so was regarding the rest of kde being help up by a bad qt, which, unless I'm mistaken, has been fixed for a while now. So the perfectly valid question, posed in a perfectly valid non-demanding way, is: what's the holdup? Much of the antsiness of people around here could be settled by simple 3-line status updates by the relevant parties. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm just in a irritated mood with topics that have been discussed OVER and OVER and OVER again. :) Nobody can stop newbies from signing up to the list and asking the same questions over and over again, with no regard for the list archives (why doesn't my sound work would be a good example of that), but this isn't that email. -- Yousa steala precious from meesa! - Jar-Jaromir D.A.Bishop
Re: Where is kdenetwork, where is Chris?
I would suggest you use a distribution, like woody, that isn't in rapid development and does not require going to the archives or Google to have it work. Sid is not meant for people, like you, who want to have things work out of the box. Maybe so, but in general, Sid _does_ work out of the box, so I wouldn't advocate ditching it quite so fast. Anybody who's willing to go to the trouble of following the mailing list, searching the archives, and adding Ralf's KDE packages to his sources.list sounds like a good candidate for running Sid (and giving useful feedback when things don't work). I think the problem is that KDE just isn't quite there yet in Debian, and these are the growing pains that we should expect in these early days. It would be useful to know what the current problems are, in case someone else has the time/expertise to look into them. Bjorn
