Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
I raised this in the past as we use Zimbra internally. The main objection at that time was choice of venue, which has been discussed at length. I continue to hold the view that establishing the legal venue gives clarity to the contractual structure of the agreement in a positive way. Its better to have the contract explicitly define which legal operating system it is designed to execute in. Otherwise, the language of the contract may be interpreted in a way radically different than the intent with which it was framed. My opinion is currently not the popular one. It just makes rational sense in my mind. - Cedric Fachinetti wrote: I quoted Allard Hoeve March 2008: We'd like to try to package Zimbra for Debian. Zimbra is at http://www.zimbra.com/. It is distributed according to the Yahoo Public License, which you can read at http://www.zimbra.com/license/yahoo_public_license_1.1.html Is the Yahoo Public License DFSG-compatible? I haven't found anything that made me believe otherwise but the license does state for example: Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, __Yahoo!__ hereby grants to You, under any and all of its copyright interest in and to the Software, a royalty-free, non-exclusive, non-transferable license to copy, modify, compile, execute, and distribute the Software and Modifications. What does the debian-legal community think? -- Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com e...@brainfood.com - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:53:08AM -0600, Ean Schuessler wrote: I continue to hold the view that establishing the legal venue gives clarity to the contractual structure of the agreement in a positive way. Its better to have the contract explicitly define which legal operating system it is designed to execute in. Otherwise, the language of the contract may be interpreted in a way radically different than the intent with which it was framed. This is a misstatement of choice of venue. You are describing choice of law, which is entirely different and has never been a matter of serious contention in Debian. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
In message 17890740.4861239900788731.javamail.r...@newmail.brainfood.com, Ean Schuessler e...@brainfood.com writes I raised this in the past as we use Zimbra internally. The main objection at that time was choice of venue, which has been discussed at length. I continue to hold the view that establishing the legal venue gives clarity to the contractual structure of the agreement in a positive way. Its better to have the contract explicitly define which legal operating system it is designed to execute in. Otherwise, the language of the contract may be interpreted in a way radically different than the intent with which it was framed. My opinion is currently not the popular one. It just makes rational sense in my mind. So, let's say you're a Cuban (or a Russian?) The venue is California. If you're a Cuban, do you think you're going to be able to get a visa to go to court? Or Russian (an ordinary Russian, that is), how are you going to get the money to go to California? Choice of VENUE isn't free, as it denies recourse to law to many. Oh - and the (new-ish) American habit of denying entry (or at least making it very difficult) for anybody with a criminal conviction no matter how long ago is a problem there too - I think the stats say about 30% of young adult brits now have a criminal record :-( Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:16:12 +0100 (CET) Cedric Fachinetti wrote: [...] Yahoo! Public License, Version 1.1 (YPL) [...] • 6.2 - In the event You violate the terms of this Agreement, Yahoo! may terminate this Agreement. This seems to be the only significant change with respect to version 1.0, which was discussed in the previous thread [1]. The clause has been rephrased slightly, and now it does not explicit state that Yahoo! is to determine whether the licensee is in breach (it did in version 1.0, see [2]). However, I see (from his reply) that Josselin Mouette seems to think that the rephrasing is not enough to make the issue vanish. Anyway, the other issues with the YPL seem to still be present in this new version 1.1 [3]. Hence, I still think that works under the YPL-v1.1 do *not* comply with the DFSG. Disclaimers: IANAL, TINLA, IANADD, TINASOTODP. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2008/03/msg00056.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2008/03/msg00067.html [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2008/03/msg00062.html -- New location for my website! Update your bookmarks! http://www.inventati.org/frx . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpRlQvCMlG6r.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
Le lundi 23 mars 2009 à 17:16 +0100, Cedric Fachinetti a écrit : * 3.2 - In any copy of the Software or in any Modification you create, You must retain and reproduce, any and all copyright, patent, trademark, and attribution notices that are included in the Software in the same form as they appear in the Software. This includes the preservation of attribution notices in the form of trademarks or logos that exist within a user interface of the Software. This looks like a restriction in modifications, a distorted way to introduce invariant data. If the software includes such logos or trademarks in the user interface, I think this is clearly non-free. Otherwise, it is not a problem. Term and Termination * 6.1 - This Agreement will continue in effect unless and until terminated earlier pursuant to this Section 6. * 6.2 - In the event You violate the terms of this Agreement, Yahoo! may terminate this Agreement. This looks like a lawyerbomb, as the wording suggests Yahoo! can reserve the rights to revoke the license if they think you have violated it. All disputes arising out of this Agreement involving Yahoo! or any of its subsidiaries shall be subject to the jurisdiction of the federal or state courts of northern California, with venue lying in Santa Clara County, California. This is a choice of venue clause. There’s controversy over it, and many people consider it non-free. I disagree in the general case, but together with the 6.2 termination clause, it puts an unacceptable burden on the recipient and clearly fails the “tentacles of evil” test. Therefore I think this license is non-free. Cheers, -- .''`. Debian 5.0 Lenny has been released! : :' : `. `' Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told `-me that if you don't install Lenny, he'd melt your brain. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
Hello All, I quoted Allard Hoeve March 2008: We'd like to try to package Zimbra for Debian. Zimbra is at http://www.zimbra.com/. It is distributed according to the Yahoo Public License, which you can read at http://www.zimbra.com/license/yahoo_public_license_1.1.html Is the Yahoo Public License DFSG-compatible? I haven't found anything that made me believe otherwise but the license does state for example: Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, __Yahoo!__ hereby grants to You, under any and all of its copyright interest in and to the Software, a royalty-free, non-exclusive, non-transferable license to copy, modify, compile, execute, and distribute the Software and Modifications. What does the debian-legal community think? Thanks! Here is the full text: Yahoo! Public License, Version 1.1 (YPL) This Yahoo! Public License (this Agreement ) is a legal agreement that describes the terms under which Yahoo! Inc., a Delaware corporation having its principal place of business at 701 First Avenue, Sunnyvale, California 94089 ( Yahoo !) will provide software to you via download or otherwise ( Software ). By using the Software, you, an individual or an entity ( You ) agree to the terms of this Agreement. In consideration of the mutual promises and upon the terms and conditions set forth below, the parties agree as follows: 1. Grant of Copyright License • 1.1 - Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, Yahoo! hereby grants to You, under any and all of its copyright interest in and to the Software, a royalty-free, non-exclusive, non-transferable license to copy, modify, compile, execute, and distribute the Software and Modifications. For the purposes of this Agreement, any change to, addition to, or abridgement of the Software made by You is a Modification ; however, any file You add to the Software that does not contain any part of the Software is not a Modification. • 1.2 - If You are an individual acting on behalf of a corporation or other entity, Your use of the Software or any Modification is subject to Your having the authority to bind such corporation or entity to this Agreement. Providing copies to persons within such corporation or entity is not considered distribution for purposes of this Agreement. • 1.3 - For the Software or any Modification You distribute in source code format, You must do so only under the terms of this Agreement, and You must include a complete copy of this Agreement with Your distribution. With respect to any Modification You distribute in source code format, the terms of this Agreement will apply to You in the same way those terms apply to Yahoo! with respect to the Software. In other words, when You are distributing Modifications under this Agreement, You stand in the shoes of Yahoo! in terms of the rights You grant and how the terms and conditions apply to You and the licensees of Your Modifications. Notwithstanding the foregoing, when You stand in the shoes of Yahoo!, You are not subject to the jurisdiction provision under Section 7, which requires all disputes under this Agreement to be subject to the jurisdiction of federal or state courts of northern California. • 1.4 - For the Software or any Modification You distribute in compiled or object code format, You must also provide recipients with access to the Software or Modification in source code format along with a complete copy of this Agreement. The distribution of the Software or Modifications in compiled or object code format may be under a license of Your choice, provided that You are in compliance with the terms of this Agreement. In addition, You must make absolutely clear that any license terms applying to such Software or Modification that differ from this Agreement are offered by You alone and not by Yahoo!, and that such license does not restrict recipients from exercising rights in the source code to the Software granted by Yahoo! under this Agreement or rights in the source code to any Modification granted by You as described in Section 1.3. • 1.5 - This Agreement does not limit Your right to distribute files that are entirely Your own work (i.e., which do not incorporate any portion of the Software and are not Modifications) under any terms You choose. 2. Support • Yahoo! has no obligation to provide technical support or updates to You. Nothing in this Agreement requires Yahoo! to enter into any license with You for any other edition of the Software. 3. Intellectual Property Rights • 3.1 - Except for the license expressly granted under copyright in Section 1.1, no rights, licenses or forbearances are granted or may arise in relation to this Agreement whether expressly, by implication, exhaustion, estoppel or otherwise. All rights, including all intellectual property rights, that are not expressly granted under this Agreement are
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Cedric Fachinetti c.fachine...@free.fr wrote: What does the debian-legal community think? License NIH is fun! -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
Hello All, Sorry about the radio-silence there. I've been busy. Thanks for all the comments on the license. I'll write the authors to ask them to change it to a DFSG compatible license. It seems they just copied something from the intarweb and applied it. Who knows if they'll just switch? :) Thanks all! Regards, Allard Hoeve -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
2008/3/14, Francesco Poli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The rest of the license seems to be a weak copyleft that's GPL-incompatible. Both v2 and v3 I guess? Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
Bas Zoetekouw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Miriam wrote: What about 6.2 - In the event Yahoo! determines that You have breached this Agreement, Yahoo! may terminate this Agreement. ? Would it give Yahoo! the power to terminate the license randomly at their will (for example, if Microsoft buys it in the future), or is it safe enough? In any case, I don't think it would be too relevant, as it won't affect redistributions (With respect to any Modification You distribute in source code format, the terms of this Agreement will apply to You in the same way those terms apply to Yahoo! with respect to the Software). I'm asking just in case. I think it's similar to the GPL termination clause: if you're violating the license, your rights under the license are retracted. GPL termination clause is at http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl.html#section8 and does not allow the copyright holder to determine a breach unlaterally. The Yahoo one looks like a holder-termination clause to me, so I think it fails DFSG but I'm not sure exactly how. Clearly not free software, though - look at the number of places on their licence list that the FSF comments about the evils of termination clauses. How would redistributions escape from it? The quoted clause above looks like part of a copyleft to me. Puzzled, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:41:32 + (GMT) MJ Ray wrote: Bas Zoetekouw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Miriam wrote: What about 6.2 - In the event Yahoo! determines that You have breached this Agreement, Yahoo! may terminate this Agreement. ? Would it give Yahoo! the power to terminate the license randomly at their will [...] I think it's similar to the GPL termination clause: if you're violating the license, your rights under the license are retracted. GPL termination clause is at http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl.html#section8 and does not allow the copyright holder to determine a breach unlaterally. True. I didn't notice that important difference. Thanks for catching it! The Yahoo one looks like a holder-termination clause to me, so I think it fails DFSG but I'm not sure exactly how. I would say that, if the copyright holder can almost arbitrarily terminate the license at will, then each freedom required by the DFSG is at stake. Someone could argue that the DFSG never say in perpetuity when they require a permission to be granted, but, on the other hand, can a work be free software just for a limited time frame? Maybe another argument can be made, in order to see that a holder-termination clause is non-free: it fails DFSG#5 by discriminating against people the copyright holder doesn't like. Same old disclaimers: IANAL, TINLA, IANADD, TINASOTODP. -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpAjsxzp6mbx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:37:12 +0100 Miriam Ruiz wrote: 2008/3/14, Francesco Poli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The rest of the license seems to be a weak copyleft that's GPL-incompatible. Both v2 and v3 I guess? I think so, because it includes restrictions[1] not present in GPLv2 and not present in (nor allowed by Section 7. of) GPLv3. [1] at least the choice of law clause, which is acceptable, but not imposed by the GNU GPL The same disclaimers as usual: IANAL, TINLA, IANADD, TINASOTODP. -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpo2e4lPBVIU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
Hello All, I'd like to try to package Zimbra for Debian. Zimbra is at http://www.zimbra.com/. It is distributed according to the Yahoo Public License, which you can read at http://www.zimbra.com/license/yahoo_public_license_1.0.html Is the Yahoo Public License DFSG-compatible? I haven't found anything that made me believe otherwise but the license does state for example: Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, __Yahoo!__ hereby grants to You, under any and all of its copyright interest in and to the Software, a royalty-free, non-exclusive, non-transferable license to copy, modify, compile, execute, and distribute the Software and Modifications. (emphasis mine) What does the debian-legal community think? Thanks! Regards, Allard Hoeve -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
Hi Allard! You wrote: Zimbra is at http://www.zimbra.com/. It is distributed according to the Yahoo Public License, which you can read at http://www.zimbra.com/license/yahoo_public_license_1.0.html Is the Yahoo Public License DFSG-compatible? It looks like a basic copyleft license. The only problem that I can see is the choice of venue clause at the end. I'm not sure is that is considered non-free nowadays. Regards, Bas. -- +--+ | Bas Zoetekouw | Sweet day, so cool, so calm, so bright, | || The bridall of the earth and skie: | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The dew shall weep thy fall tonight;| +|For thou must die. | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
What about 6.2 - In the event Yahoo! determines that You have breached this Agreement, Yahoo! may terminate this Agreement. ? Would it give Yahoo! the power to terminate the license randomly at their will (for example, if Microsoft buys it in the future), or is it safe enough? In any case, I don't think it would be too relevant, as it won't affect redistributions (With respect to any Modification You distribute in source code format, the terms of this Agreement will apply to You in the same way those terms apply to Yahoo! with respect to the Software). I'm asking just in case. Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
Hi Miriam! You wrote: What about 6.2 - In the event Yahoo! determines that You have breached this Agreement, Yahoo! may terminate this Agreement. ? Would it give Yahoo! the power to terminate the license randomly at their will (for example, if Microsoft buys it in the future), or is it safe enough? In any case, I don't think it would be too relevant, as it won't affect redistributions (With respect to any Modification You distribute in source code format, the terms of this Agreement will apply to You in the same way those terms apply to Yahoo! with respect to the Software). I'm asking just in case. I think it's similar to the GPL termination clause: if you're violating the license, your rights under the license are retracted. (ianal and such) Bas. -- +--+ | Bas Zoetekouw | Sweet day, so cool, so calm, so bright, | || The bridall of the earth and skie: | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The dew shall weep thy fall tonight;| +|For thou must die. | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:26:39 +0100 (CET) Allard Hoeve wrote: Hello All, Hi! I'd like to try to package Zimbra for Debian. Zimbra is at http://www.zimbra.com/. It is distributed according to the Yahoo Public License, which you can read at http://www.zimbra.com/license/yahoo_public_license_1.0.html Is the Yahoo Public License DFSG-compatible? [...] What does the debian-legal community think? When asking debian-legal for a license review, it is usually recommended that the license text is fully quoted in the message. This way, comments can be made more easily and the license text under discussion is archived together with the thread for future reference. Below is the full quote of the license text, obtained with $ w3m -cols 140 -dump \ http://www.zimbra.com/license/yahoo_public_license_1.0.html \ yahoo_public_license_1.0.txt and a bit of hand editing to discard the extraneous stuff... Yahoo! Public License, Version 1.0 (YPL) This Yahoo! Public License (this Agreement) is a legal agreement that describes the terms under which Yahoo! Inc., a Delaware corporation having its principal place of business at 701 First Avenue, Sunnyvale, California 94089 (Yahoo!) will provide software to you via download or otherwise (Software). By using the Software, you, an individual or an entity (You) agree to the terms of this Agreement. In consideration of the mutual promises and upon the terms and conditions set forth below, the parties agree as follows: 1. Grant of Copyright License □ 1.1 - Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, Yahoo! hereby grants to You, under any and all of its copyright interest in and to the Software, a royalty-free, non-exclusive, non-transferable license to copy, modify, compile, execute, and distribute the Software and Modifications. For the purposes of this Agreement, any change to, addition to, or abridgement of the Software made by You is a Modification; however, any file You add to the Software that does not contain any part of the Software is not a Modification. □ 1.2 - If You are an individual acting on behalf of a corporation or other entity, Your use of the Software or any Modification is subject to Your having the authority to bind such corporation or entity to this Agreement. Providing copies to persons within such corporation or entity is not considered distribution for purposes of this Agreement. □ 1.3 - For the Software or any Modification You distribute in source code format, You must do so only under the terms of this Agreement, and You must include a complete copy of this Agreement with Your distribution. With respect to any Modification You distribute in source code format, the terms of this Agreement will apply to You in the same way those terms apply to Yahoo! with respect to the Software. In other words, when You are distributing Modifications under this Agreement, You stand in the shoes of Yahoo! in terms of the rights You grant and how the terms and conditions apply to You and the licensees of Your Modifications. Notwithstanding the foregoing, when You stand in the shoes of Yahoo!, You are not subject to the jurisdiction provision under Section 7, which requires all disputes under this Agreement to be subject to the jurisdiction of federal or state courts of northern California. □ 1.4 - For the Software or any Modification You distribute in compiled or object code format, You must also provide recipients with access to the Software or Modification in source code format along with a complete copy of this Agreement. The distribution of the Software or Modifications in compiled or object code format may be under a license of Your choice, provided that You are in compliance with the terms of this Agreement. In addition, You must make absolutely clear that any license terms applying to such Software or Modification that differ from this Agreement are offered by You alone and not by Yahoo!, and that such license does not restrict recipients from exercising rights in the source code to the Software granted by Yahoo! under this Agreement or rights in the source code to any Modification granted by You as described in Section 1.3. □ 1.5 - This Agreement does not limit Your right to distribute files that are entirely Your own work (i.e., which do not incorporate any portion of the Software and are not Modifications) under any terms You choose. 2. Support □ Yahoo! has no obligation to provide technical support or updates to You. Nothing in this Agreement requires Yahoo! to enter into any license with You for any other
Re: Zimbra and Yahoo Public License
On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 00:57:37 +0100 Francesco Poli wrote: [...] The following parts are the ones that worry me most: Yahoo! Public License, Version 1.0 (YPL) [...] The U.N. Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods shall not apply to this Agreement. What does this U.N. Convention state? Do I surrender some rights of mine by agreeing that this Convention shall not apply? All disputes arising out of this Agreement involving Yahoo! or any of its subsidiaries shall be subject to the jurisdiction of the federal or state courts of northern California, with venue lying in Santa Clara County, California. This is a choice of venue clause, which is non-free, IMO. Choice of venue clauses have been discussed to death on debian-legal, hence I won't restate the reasons why I think they are non-free restrictions. The rest of the license seems to be a weak copyleft that's GPL-incompatible. My usual disclaimers: IANAL, TINLA, IANADD, TINASOTODP. -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpTxBkvIt8HH.pgp Description: PGP signature
