Re: RFS: steam-powered
Paul TBBle Hampson wrote: On Mon, Aug 27, 2007 at 09:53:07PM -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: Dear mentors and games team, Heh, more than 9 months old. But I only just came across the ITP. ^_^ I am looking for a sponsor for my package steam-powered. * Package name: steam-powered Version : 5 Upstream Author : Michael Gilbert * URL : no website * License : gpl Section : contrib/games I just had a look at your package (version 7) and a few thoughts came to mind. On a multi-user machine, this current setup (sticking stuff in .config/steam-powered) will lead to duplication of some very large files. (GCF files, and the contents of .ncf files) Would it not be better (and I don't know if this is rationally possible) to have a shared installation of Steam? As an outline/suggestion, it'd have to create a new user, which owns /var/lib/games/steam-powered/ say, and has a local wine-prefix in /var/lib/games/steam-powered/.wine and then installs Steam to /var/lib/games/steam-powered/Steam. I don't know however how good Steam is at locking files it's updating, but if it can handle that OK, then that mean that whichever user happens to run Steam and do the updates, all users on the system benefit from it. Steam already has a system for storing login-specific (Steam-login, that is) data, but short of building an appropriate symlink farm, that data will also live in /var/lib/games/steam-powered. (A symlink farm back to user's home directories won't work, because a Steam login might be shared by multiple Debian user accounts...) As Wine gets better and better, we're going to get a lot more Windows apps made into proper debian packages. We should probably create a standard for where to put them, as giving each a separate wine prefix seems like a waste. This also avoids the issue with the current code of playing with the user's .wine/dosdevices folder, and in fact the assumption that .wine exists. It would however require that all potential Steam users are able to gksudo or similar to the relevant user, gaining the appropriate wineprefix on the way. I haven't looked at how feasible that would be. I also haven't tried starting a wine session from a different wine prefix to one that is already running. I don't know if wineservers separate themselves by wine-prefix (good for this solution, bad for cut-and-paste ^_^) or not (bad for this solution, good for cut-and-paste). If they do separate, then that also means that if Steam kills its own wine session, it doesn't affect anything else you're running under your normal wine. Wine doesn't really work with multiple wineservers running at the moment. It's on the todo list, but won't make it into Wine 1.0, and likely won't make it into Wine for a long time after that. With this setup, I'd suggest that the relevant steam folder not be deleted on remove, but on purge (or never...). This would put us a step up on the upstream windows installer, which once blew away my gcf files (expected) and my savegames (unexpected) when I uninstalled Steam. _ There's also the issue of having multiple users accessing the one wine process as a single user. I imaging Wine (in order to implement the Win32 API) doesn't have a lot of protection within a single wine process from a malicious user. So maybe you have to be in a steam-powered group or something to actually fire up this wineprefix. Indeed, there are some pretty easy ways to screw other wine users on the same machine, but this is a problem with any application if you both have write access to the same folder. Having said all this, some parts of the above could probably be generalised and added to the Debian Wine packaging, basically implementing a Debian-specific version of the bottling stuff CrossOver (a Wine-derived commercial product) offers, both for packagers and for users. (ie. users can wine-bottle to quickly create or user a wine-prefix under .wine-bottle, and packagers get a dh_winebottle script to create a wine bottle with appropriate permissions and startup scripts) A couple of other things. Wine now includes a Tahoma-replacement, and I don't recalling having that old 26% bug last time I installed Steam, but that could just be my faulty memory. Also, rather than kill -9, wineserver -k should do what you want there, I believe. (ie. tear down the current Wine session) Yeah, wineserver -k hasn't really failed for me even when stuff really breaks. One last thing, I _do_ very much like the postinst stuff you've done. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure that stuff the postinst scripts create (OK, download, in this case, but the difference is immaterial) should go in /usr/share or in /var/lib. (Or /var/cache? Given that the removal of the downloaded cab file or the extracted license agreement doesn't actually break anything, /var/cache might be safe for those...) Wow. That ended up
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On Mon, Aug 27, 2007 at 09:53:07PM -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: Dear mentors and games team, Heh, more than 9 months old. But I only just came across the ITP. ^_^ I am looking for a sponsor for my package steam-powered. * Package name: steam-powered Version : 5 Upstream Author : Michael Gilbert * URL : no website * License : gpl Section : contrib/games I just had a look at your package (version 7) and a few thoughts came to mind. On a multi-user machine, this current setup (sticking stuff in .config/steam-powered) will lead to duplication of some very large files. (GCF files, and the contents of .ncf files) Would it not be better (and I don't know if this is rationally possible) to have a shared installation of Steam? As an outline/suggestion, it'd have to create a new user, which owns /var/lib/games/steam-powered/ say, and has a local wine-prefix in /var/lib/games/steam-powered/.wine and then installs Steam to /var/lib/games/steam-powered/Steam. I don't know however how good Steam is at locking files it's updating, but if it can handle that OK, then that mean that whichever user happens to run Steam and do the updates, all users on the system benefit from it. Steam already has a system for storing login-specific (Steam-login, that is) data, but short of building an appropriate symlink farm, that data will also live in /var/lib/games/steam-powered. (A symlink farm back to user's home directories won't work, because a Steam login might be shared by multiple Debian user accounts...) This also avoids the issue with the current code of playing with the user's .wine/dosdevices folder, and in fact the assumption that .wine exists. It would however require that all potential Steam users are able to gksudo or similar to the relevant user, gaining the appropriate wineprefix on the way. I haven't looked at how feasible that would be. I also haven't tried starting a wine session from a different wine prefix to one that is already running. I don't know if wineservers separate themselves by wine-prefix (good for this solution, bad for cut-and-paste ^_^) or not (bad for this solution, good for cut-and-paste). If they do separate, then that also means that if Steam kills its own wine session, it doesn't affect anything else you're running under your normal wine. With this setup, I'd suggest that the relevant steam folder not be deleted on remove, but on purge (or never...). This would put us a step up on the upstream windows installer, which once blew away my gcf files (expected) and my savegames (unexpected) when I uninstalled Steam. _ There's also the issue of having multiple users accessing the one wine process as a single user. I imaging Wine (in order to implement the Win32 API) doesn't have a lot of protection within a single wine process from a malicious user. So maybe you have to be in a steam-powered group or something to actually fire up this wineprefix. Having said all this, some parts of the above could probably be generalised and added to the Debian Wine packaging, basically implementing a Debian-specific version of the bottling stuff CrossOver (a Wine-derived commercial product) offers, both for packagers and for users. (ie. users can wine-bottle to quickly create or user a wine-prefix under .wine-bottle, and packagers get a dh_winebottle script to create a wine bottle with appropriate permissions and startup scripts) A couple of other things. Wine now includes a Tahoma-replacement, and I don't recalling having that old 26% bug last time I installed Steam, but that could just be my faulty memory. Also, rather than kill -9, wineserver -k should do what you want there, I believe. (ie. tear down the current Wine session) One last thing, I _do_ very much like the postinst stuff you've done. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure that stuff the postinst scripts create (OK, download, in this case, but the difference is immaterial) should go in /usr/share or in /var/lib. (Or /var/cache? Given that the removal of the downloaded cab file or the extracted license agreement doesn't actually break anything, /var/cache might be safe for those...) Wow. That ended up longer than I expected. If you think this is an interesting idea but don't have the time to play with it yourself, let me know (best to directly CC me, I often forget to read d-mentors...) and I'll try and make the time to prototype such a thing for feasibility. -- --- Paul TBBle Hampson, B.Sc, LPI, MCSE Very-later-year Asian Studies student, ANU The Boss, Bubblesworth Pty Ltd (ABN: 51 095 284 361) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Of course Pacman didn't influence us as kids. If it did, we'd be running around in darkened rooms, popping pills and listening to repetitive music. -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989 License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/au/ ---
Re: RFS: steam-powered
* Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-09-03 21:38:09 CEST]: if someone is willing to package and maintain it, then why not? i thought the goal was for debian to be the universal operating system. how can the system be universal if software is refused because it is used to run non-dfsg software? if that is the case, then one should reject wine, iceweasel, gcc, and any other software that could be used to run non-dfsg software. Your example is absolutely flawed because iceweasel's and gcc's main purpose is *not* to run non-dfsg software. And IMHO you are right about wine, because for a start it's not universal, it's arch specific. But even then this doesn't get you any further - calling up other more-or-less bad examples doesn't make yours any better, that's kindergarden argumentation line. as i understand it, to become a debian developer, one has to agree to adhere to the social contract Yes, but the social contract doesn't regulate where one puts their effort into. And some chose not to do so for non-free software, which is their right and yours to accept it. So long, Rhonda -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Michael, please preserve attribution lines so it's clear who wrote what you're quoting. Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This sub-thread is discussing whether we *want* software in Debian whose only purpose is to sell non-free software. like i said before, the purpose of the package is to help the average user to easily run the software of their choice on linux. The only software that the package helps users run is non-free. It's not in the interest of a free operating system to aid that purpose. Note that I've already said that it's neither valid to hinder that purpose, but by asking for the package to be included and maintained in the Debian infrastructure you're asking for active assistance in running non-free software. if someone is willing to package and maintain it, then why not? They're welcome to expend their own resources to do so. While some non-free software is present on Debian's infrastructure, the Debian resources are primarily for the creation of a free operating system. how can the system be universal if software is refused because it is used to run non-dfsg software? Because that's it's *main* purpose. If free-software games were distributed on the Steam service, that would be a useful thing for a free operating system. As is, there's nothing about the service that is useful to include in a free operating system. if that is the case, then one should reject wine, iceweasel, gcc, and any other software that could be used to run non-dfsg software. The argument was never could be used to run non-dfsg software. as i understand it, to become a debian developer, one has to agree to adhere to the social contract There's nothing in the social contract that compels anyone to include any specific software in Debian if they are disinclined to do so. The package in question has as its sole purpose the promotion of non-free software. Many people are disinclined to spend effort on promoting non-free software, and your cries will not gain their support. -- \ Laugh and the world laughs with you; snore and you sleep | `\ alone. -- Anonymous | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Le Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 08:59:02AM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs a écrit : But even then this doesn't get you any further - calling up other more-or-less bad examples doesn't make yours any better, that's kindergarden argumentation line. Yes, but the social contract doesn't regulate where one puts their effort into. And some chose not to do so for non-free software, which is their right and yours to accept it. Dear all, dear Gerfried and Ben, It would be really great if we managed to keep this mailing list insult-free. Everybody has the right of not sponsoring free software made for helping to use non-free software, and now that it has been said it may be time to move on and let Michael look for one. Now that the ITP went on -devel, there is opportunity to raise fundamental objections on the presence of Steam-Powered in Debian, but if for each RFS on this list we get mails from persons explaining why they will not consider to sponsor the packages, our mailboxes will explode... Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy http://charles.plessy.org Wako, Saitama, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Hey Michael, like i said before, the purpose of the package is to help the average user to easily run the software of their choice on linux. steam does include a store, but it is by no means the only purpose for the software. I want that choice too. I'm playing Half-life1 (CS) and Half-life2 under Windows. I never tried to install it with wine because wineapps are sometimes not easy to install. Thanks for you package - it works nice :) I hope it comes in Debian. Best Regards, Max -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ben Finney wrote: [...] There's nothing in the social contract that compels anyone to include any specific software in Debian if they are disinclined to do so. The package in question has as its sole purpose the promotion of non-free software. Many people are disinclined to spend effort on promoting non-free software, and your cries will not gain their support. Hmm. Given that I've just seen pretty much exactly the same conversation on -devel about a week ago, and that this keeps popping up, it's obvious that there *is* demand for working non-free software on Debian. (I use it myself.) Also given that given that there are a number of DDs who *do* want to sponsor non-free (because otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing...), might I suggest that it might be worthwhile setting up a -nonfree mailing list? This ought to allow the relatively small number of nonfree developers to meet each other more easily, while also keeping such things out of -mentors and -devel, an improvement to everybody. - -- ┌── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ─── http://www.cowlark.com ─── │ │ There does not now, nor will there ever, exist a programming language in │ which it is the least bit hard to write bad programs. --- Flon's Axiom -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG3R5wf9E0noFvlzgRAgFgAKDd+f2/0vN600Zatk49hEIA3Y/CDwCfYFqZ Oc4NDyB0uajOKYwUOtFkzXs= =bLPA -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: RFS: steam-powered
David Given [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Given that I've just seen pretty much exactly the same conversation on -devel about a week ago, and that this keeps popping up, it's obvious that there *is* demand for working non-free software on Debian. (I use it myself.) It's obvious that people want it, even on a free operating system. It still has no place *in* a free operating system, by definition. Also given that given that there are a number of DDs who *do* want to sponsor non-free (because otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing...), might I suggest that it might be worthwhile setting up a -nonfree mailing list? Such a mailing list is contrary to the goal of Debian, so I'd be alarmed to see such a list using Debian's resources. Feel free to set up such a list somewhere else though. -- \ Contentment is a pearl of great price, and whosoever procures | `\it at the expense of ten thousand desires makes a wise and | _o__) happy purchase. -- J. Balguy | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Le Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 07:06:19PM +1000, Ben Finney a écrit : David Given [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Given that I've just seen pretty much exactly the same conversation on -devel about a week ago, and that this keeps popping up, it's obvious that there *is* demand for working non-free software on Debian. (I use it myself.) It's obvious that people want it, even on a free operating system. It still has no place *in* a free operating system, by definition. Fortunately, the wise people who wrote the Social Contract made it clear: We have created contrib and non-free areas in our archive for these works. The packages in these areas are not part of the Debian system, although they have been configured for use with Debian. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy http://charles.plessy.org Wako, Saitama, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Charles Plessy wrote: Fortunately, the wise people who wrote the Social Contract made it clear: We have created contrib and non-free areas in our archive for these works. The packages in these areas are not part of the Debian system, although they have been configured for use with Debian. Unfortunately it does not seem that clear, because policy states, that packages for its inclusion in main must not require a package outside of main for compilation or execution (thus, the package must not declare a Depends, Recommends, or Build-Depends relationship on a non-main package). So according to the policy (as I understand it) steam (which is - as of what I've got from in this discussion - GPL) would go to main, as it is *not* non-free nor does it require any non-free software to be installed. Even if it is *used* to install non-free software, it does not depend on it (via the usual depend mechanisms). So in sense of the policy, steam would be a main-candidate. But it seems that here arepeople, that either do not accept this or interpret it other then I do. Regards, Patrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Patrick Schoenfeld schrieb: Charles Plessy wrote: Fortunately, the wise people who wrote the Social Contract made it clear: We have created contrib and non-free areas in our archive for these works. The packages in these areas are not part of the Debian system, although they have been configured for use with Debian. [...] Please ignore what I have written. I found out that this package just downloads non-free software in the style of e.g. msttcorefonts and therefore i understand that it is not suitable for main. Anyways I think that policy could need some polishing cause it is not clear enough in this point, cause it says by its exact wording that it requires Depends: etc. for contrib, which is not the only way to depend on things in case of such meta-packages. Regards, Patrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am looking for a sponsor for my package steam-powered. * Package name: steam-powered Version : 5 Upstream Author : Michael Gilbert * URL : no website * License : gpl Section : contrib/games Does the package has an active and resposive upstream? How do you intend to care for bugreports? Where do you intend to forward bugs in the games installed by steam-powered to? Are you willing and able to do a security audit of the software? As far as I understand, it downloads more or less random executable binary data from a commercial vendor (valve), and executes the software. Doesn't this impose a security risk for the user? How can Debian support this package security wise? On what architectures does your package work? only on i386 or on amd64 as well? It builds these binary packages: counter-strike - Valve's counter-strike video game counter-strike-source - Valve's counter-strike-source video game day-of-defeat - Valve's day-of-defeat video game day-of-defeat-source - Valve's day-of-defeat-source video game half-life - Valve's half-life video game half-life2 - Valve's half-life2 video game steam-powered - Valve's steam game content delivery system What are the contents of that binary packages? AFAIU, it downloads the software from the net, so why provide binary packages here? TBH, I see a lot of problems for debian with supporting this package. Unless you can find a supportive DD helping you with the package, and can satisfactory answer questions like in this email, I don't see a place for it in Debian. -- Gruesse/greetings, Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The users *are* free to choose the software that's out there. The Debian project is also free to refuse to choose what software it distributes. the key word is distribution. the question is whether the part of the software to be added to the archive is distributable. for steam-powered, all of the software in the package is fully GPL'd, and thus freely redistributable under the terms of the GPL. I don't think that was in question. This sub-thread is discussing whether we *want* software in Debian whose only purpose is to sell non-free software. Software must be DFSG-free to be in Debian. Not all DFSG-free software must be distributed by Debian. -- \ Truth would quickly cease to become stranger than fiction, | `\ once we got as used to it. -- Henry L. Mencken | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
2007/9/3, Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The users *are* free to choose the software that's out there. The Debian project is also free to refuse to choose what software it distributes. the key word is distribution. the question is whether the part of the software to be added to the archive is distributable. for steam-powered, all of the software in the package is fully GPL'd, and thus freely redistributable under the terms of the GPL. I don't think that was in question. This sub-thread is discussing whether we *want* software in Debian whose only purpose is to sell non-free software. I for one would prefer not to concentrate too much in adding that kind of software to Debian, and even less in trying to promote it if there's no real demand for it beforehand. Of course if someone is willing to do the job and there's demand for it and Debian in general sees it OK, it's OK for me. It would be nice to launch the flame to debian-devel in advance, just in case. Anyway, even if the Team as a group decides to invest some effort into those kind of programs, I'll concentrate myself in DFSG-free stuff and, the most, some other slightly less free, but not that much. So, my personal vote, just speaking for myself, is that I'm not willing to devote a single second of my time supporting those programs Software must be DFSG-free to be in Debian. Not all DFSG-free software must be distributed by Debian. Agreed Miry
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On Monday 03 September 2007 11:29:17 Miriam Ruiz wrote: I for one would prefer not to concentrate too much in adding that kind of software to Debian, and even less in trying to promote it if there's no real demand for it beforehand. Very well said, Miriam. There are similar issues with other applications which rely on non-free services to work correctly. GmailFS is a prime example for this. Instead of promoting clients for provider-specific services, Debian should promote standard interfaces to services and free implementations thereof, and free clients to access them. This gives users more choice, and as business people would say, provide a safer investment for the future. We already have free multiplayer frameworks in Debian. Let's promote those as they in turn promote running free games on them. Another issue with Steam specifically is that it doesn't allow users to be located in countries which were erased from the USA proprietary variant of the world map (http://www.valvesoftware.com/terms.html). I would say that this renders even the downloader non-DFSG-free, but that's probably for -legal to decide. Josef -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
This sub-thread is discussing whether we *want* software in Debian whose only purpose is to sell non-free software. like i said before, the purpose of the package is to help the average user to easily run the software of their choice on linux. steam does include a store, but it is by no means the only purpose for the software. Software must be DFSG-free to be in Debian. Not all DFSG-free software must be distributed by Debian. if someone is willing to package and maintain it, then why not? i thought the goal was for debian to be the universal operating system. how can the system be universal if software is refused because it is used to run non-dfsg software? if that is the case, then one should reject wine, iceweasel, gcc, and any other software that could be used to run non-dfsg software. as i understand it, to become a debian developer, one has to agree to adhere to the social contract (even if it doesn't fully conform to one's personal feelings -- it is after all for the greater good of the debian project). hence, your argument needs to be made in the context of the social contract, and it is very clear that the contrib and non-free archives are to be supported by debian for those users who require the use of non-dfsg works. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
I for one would prefer not to concentrate too much in adding that kind of software to Debian, and even less in trying to promote it if there's no real demand for it beforehand. there is demand. 90% of computer users play games, and steam has a lot of users (3 million players per month [1]). having an easy to install package will ease their transition to an alternative operating system. So, my personal vote, just speaking for myself, is that I'm not willing to devote a single second of my time supporting those programs although i personally disagree (i think free and non-free software can and should coexist equally), i do understand your viewpoint. i will take full responsibility for the package. if it becomes RC-buggy or goes unfixed, i would understand if it were removed from the archive -- of course i will work hard to make sure that doesn't happen. i will not need much support except for someone willing to upload the package. We're not really discussing whether such a package should belong to Debian or not, that's not our task and in any case that kind of discussion should be taken to debian-devel instead. We're not even discussing whether such a package should belong to contrib or to non-free, that discussion should be better handled in debian-legal. And of course, if someone is willing to maintain such a package, it's not gonna be me who forbid them to do so. ok, i will take the discussion to the appropriate lists. i have been trying to address the concerns as they have been brought up on this list. [1] http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=statscc=US -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
The users *are* free to choose the software that's out there. The Debian project is also free to refuse to choose what software it distributes. the key word is distribution. the question is whether the part of the software to be added to the archive is distributable. for steam-powered, all of the software in the package is fully GPL'd, and thus freely redistributable under the terms of the GPL. the non-free component is retrieved from the developer's site at runtime. the user is made fully aware of the actions taking place. this type of behavior is exactly what the contrib archive (which contains packages that are actually not considered part of the debian system) was set up to support. in fact section 5 of the debian social contract makes this very clear. 5. Works that do not meet our free software standards We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of works that do not conform the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created contrib and non-free areas in our archive for these works. The packages in these areas are not part of the Debian system, although they have been configured for use with Debian. We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of the packages in these areas and determine if they can distribute the packages on their CDs. Thus, although non-free works are not a part of Debian, we support their use and provide infrastructure for non-free packages (such as our bug tracking system and mailing lists). Issuing a proper ITP would be the best way to probe the communauty, since it is CCed to -devel. ok, i will file an ITP. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I build your packages and installed steam-powered and counter-strike steam-powered downloaded http://www.steampowered.com/download/SteamInstall.msi but it seems that it was not installed when I run /usr/games/steam-powered or /usr/games/counter-strike wine fails with: wine: cannot find '/home/jesusch/.config/steam-powered/steam.exe' Also while building your packages it got the following build errors: docbook2x-man debian/steam-powered.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/counter-strike.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/counter-strike-source.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/day-of-defeat.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/day-of-defeat-source.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/half-life.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/half-life2.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd Bjoern -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG1VKNABMWRpwdNukRAo1zAKCrHhyJ7S+Njj/ANjAHAhXbgXb66QCgh6du 1flOMBvdmU6gQXGZAzamXJE= =geWq -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Bjoern Boschman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I build your packages and installed steam-powered and counter-strike steam-powered downloaded http://www.steampowered.com/download/SteamInstall.msi but it seems that it was not installed This is a mailing list for assisting people who build packages for inclusion in Debian. If you have issue with a particular package distributed by the Debian project, please construct a specific bug report and file it with the bug tracking system: URL:http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting -- \ Dyslexia means never having to say that you're ysror. | `\—anonymous | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 10:51:11PM +1000, Ben Finney wrote: Bjoern Boschman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I build your packages and installed steam-powered and counter-strike steam-powered downloaded http://www.steampowered.com/download/SteamInstall.msi but it seems that it was not installed This is a mailing list for assisting people who build packages for inclusion in Debian. ... and steam-powered is such a package. Given an insight that there might still be problems with such a package IMNSHO belongs to this list -- which makes me think of, which list do you call this? Because it was sent to two. If you have issue with a particular package distributed by the Debian project, please construct a specific bug report and file it with the bug tracking system: URL:http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting That won't help for not-yet-uploaded packages, so please be a bit patient. :) So long, Rhonda -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Hi, On Wednesday 29 August 2007, Michael Gilbert wrote: number for counter-strike. if the user doesn't own the game when it is launched like this, steam will bring up the page for the user to purchase it. Are there free games available on the steam plattform? I ask because the vast majority (if not all) of the software we have in contrib and non-free (or we have installers for in contrib/non-free) is at least free as in beer, i.e. it does not cost anything at least for some usage (e.g. non-commercial). I don't think we want a package that has the sole purpose of making it easier for some company to earn money. BTW, I belive the privacy policy of steam is not what would appeal to the average user of free software. I own Half Life 2 (came with my graphics card) but decided not to install it because of their privacy policy (though that was 2 years ago and might have changed). Cheers, Stefan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Bjoern Boschman wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I build your packages and installed steam-powered and counter-strike steam-powered downloaded http://www.steampowered.com/download/SteamInstall.msi but it seems that it was not installed when I run /usr/games/steam-powered or /usr/games/counter-strike wine fails with: wine: cannot find '/home/jesusch/.config/steam-powered/steam.exe' Also while building your packages it got the following build errors: docbook2x-man debian/steam-powered.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/counter-strike.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/counter-strike-source.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/day-of-defeat.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/day-of-defeat-source.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/half-life.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd docbook2x-man debian/half-life2.manpage.xml I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd you're probably using an older version of docbook2x, which doesn't yet support docbook 4.5. i've added a versioned build depends on docbook2x (=0.8.8) and uploaded the new version 6 of the package to mentors. please try it out. http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/contrib/s/steam-powered mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Are there free games available on the steam plattform? sadly there are no steam games that are free of cost. however, it is free of cost to run the steam application itself, to use it to browse their pages, to use their communicator to chat with friends, and to play no-cost game demos. I ask because the vast majority (if not all) of the software we have in contrib and non-free (or we have installers for in contrib/non-free) is at least free as in beer, i.e. it does not cost anything at least for some usage (e.g. non-commercial). there are debian packages for wine, zsnes, dosbox, doom, quake2, msttcorefonts, etc that make it possible/easy to install commercial/non-free software on debian. this steam-powered package is very much the same. I don't think we want a package that has the sole purpose of making it easier for some company to earn money. providing this package isn't about making it easier for a company to make money (they are already making lots of money on windows users -- and linux users who run windows to play steam games). it is about making it easy for gamers use the os of their choice rather than the one chosen for them by the game developer. it is the classic catch 22. to get more adoption, you need more software to meet diversified needs, but to get more software, you need more adoption first. this package will help to increase adoption by providing easy access a highly popular and desirable piece of software. it is important to make it easy for the user to install the last pieces of commercial software that are forcing them to use windows. gamers are a tough crowd to please, but they represent a huge part of the market (something like 90% of users play computer games). if commercial games were abundantly available, linux would finally be able to support all of the needs of those 90% of users (versus less than 5% of users whose needs are fully met today). hence, debian should make it possible and easy for users install and use commercial games as well as free games. remember that clause 4 of the Debian Social Contract (http://www.debian.org/social_contract) states that Our priorities are our users and free software We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We will support the needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing environments. We will not object to non-free works that are intended to be used on Debian systems, or attempt to charge a fee to people who create or use such works. the key point is that debian shall not object to non-free works. in fact, the contrib and non-free archives were set up because of this clause. BTW, I belive the privacy policy of steam is not what would appeal to the average user of free software. I own Half Life 2 (came with my graphics card) but decided not to install it because of their privacy policy (though that was 2 years ago and might have changed). the steam-powered installer displays the terms of the steam license agreement and requires the user to either agree or decline (if declined, the package will not be installed). free software purists should and will decline (but they will probably not be using the contrib archive anyway). users should not be forced to adopt only free software. they should be free to choose whether they wish to take the pragmatic or idealogical road for all of their software. most would agree that the core os should be free, but there will always be a certain subset of needs not met by free software. debian should fully enable the user to fill that gap with non-free software if they so choose (as required by the Social Contract). mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: users should not be forced to adopt only free software. they should be free to choose whether they wish to take the pragmatic or idealogical road for all of their software. Please, not this chestnut again. The users *are* free to choose the software that's out there. The Debian project is also free to refuse to choose what software it distributes. -- \To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make | `\ you something else is the greatest accomplishment. -- Ralph | _o__)Waldo Emerson | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Le Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 11:57:58AM +1000, Ben Finney a écrit : Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: users should not be forced to adopt only free software. they should be free to choose whether they wish to take the pragmatic or idealogical road for all of their software. Please, not this chestnut again. The users *are* free to choose the software that's out there. The Debian project is also free to refuse to choose what software it distributes. Hi all, If there is really a doubt that the package would not pass the NEW queue, or that the developpers or the tech committee would ask for the package removal, it could be useful to ask before doing too much work for nothing. On the other hand, I think that it is unlikely to happen... Issuing a proper ITP would be the best way to probe the communauty, since it is CCed to -devel. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy http://charles.plessy.org Wako, Saitama, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The users *are* free to choose the software that's out there. The Debian project is also free to refuse to choose what software it distributes. Hmm. While the Debian project is free to refuse to choose what software, that's not what I meant :-) I obviously meant free to choose what software. -- \ Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to | `\ recognize a mistake when you make it again. -- Franklin P. | _o__)Jones | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On Mon, Aug 27, 2007 at 09:53:07PM -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: Dear mentors and games team, I am looking for a sponsor for my package steam-powered. * URL : no website So you think having it debian native is a good thing? It builds these binary packages: counter-strike - Valve's counter-strike video game counter-strike-source - Valve's counter-strike-source video game day-of-defeat - Valve's day-of-defeat video game day-of-defeat-source - Valve's day-of-defeat-source video game half-life - Valve's half-life video game half-life2 - Valve's half-life2 video game steam-powered - Valve's steam game content delivery system Won't these package names get us into trademark issues? I'm unsure if this is a too good idea - and it would require someone having the original games, otherwise they won't be able to sponsor it. So long, Rhonda -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
So you think having it debian native is a good thing? sure, why not? the guts of the program are so simple that i don't think it would really be that useful to set up a website or svn. in a sense www.steampowered.com perhaps should be considered the upsteam? this package is just a wrapper to make steam install and work on debian rather than windows. Won't these package names get us into trademark issues? the term counter-strike refers to Valve's actual counter-strike game, so there is no misrepresentation, which is what trademark law is meant to protect. besides there are things like the doom, quake2, etc packages that illustrate that this is ok. iceweasel came about because the firefox package was a misrepresentation of firefox according the mozilla people because parts of the code were changed that they didn't want. with this package, the game itself is in no way modified. I'm unsure if this is a too good idea - and it would require someone having the original games, otherwise they won't be able to sponsor it. steam is downloadable for free, and as long as steam works, the games will work. the games are launched using command-line arguments to the steam.exe executable. for example, counter-strike is launched via wine steam.exe -applaunch 10, where 10 is the app number for counter-strike. if the user doesn't own the game when it is launched like this, steam will bring up the page for the user to purchase it. take a look at the scripts, they're very simple and straightforward wrappers. mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RFS: steam-powered
Dear mentors and games team, I am looking for a sponsor for my package steam-powered. * Package name: steam-powered Version : 5 Upstream Author : Michael Gilbert * URL : no website * License : gpl Section : contrib/games It builds these binary packages: counter-strike - Valve's counter-strike video game counter-strike-source - Valve's counter-strike-source video game day-of-defeat - Valve's day-of-defeat video game day-of-defeat-source - Valve's day-of-defeat-source video game half-life - Valve's half-life video game half-life2 - Valve's half-life2 video game steam-powered - Valve's steam game content delivery system The package appears to be lintian clean. The package can be found on mentors.debian.net: - URL: http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/contrib/s/steam-powered - Source repository: deb-src http://mentors.debian.net/debian unstable main contrib non-free - dget http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/contrib/s/steam-powered/steam-powered_5.dsc I would be glad if someone would be kind enough to uploaded this package for me. Regards, Michael Gilbert -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Just a few suggestions: 1) I'd add 'set -u' and 'set -e' to the top of steam-powered: I do this for every shell script I write. This might require some of the script to be re-written to cope with unbound variables, etc. 2) line 39: eval set -- $(getopt --quiet --alternative --longoptions=help,version --options= -- $@)$ What does eval do here? As far as I can see, you can omit it. Otherwise I like it! I am also currently working on packages specifically for the steam games themselves such as counter-strike and half-life2, and will upload these if there is interest in sponsoring steam-powered. I am working on a generic data installer package which takes non-free data and generates .debs which satisfy dependencies. The first, domain-specific rough-cut of this is the doom-package package. I have been offline for a while and have yet to commit my latest work on this, I will do so over the weekend. You might find it interesting. -- Jon Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On 28-Jun-2007 03:52.00 (BST), Michael Gilbert wrote: Your package should also depends on wine and curl since your script use them. the control file already has dependencies on wine, curl, cabextract, whiptail, and catdoc, so i think this is ok? The Architecture entry in the control file is any - wine is only available[0] on i386 and amd64, so build will fail on other architectures. You should match wine's Architecture line. [0] Actually, wine's Architecture header includes freebsd, netbsd, hurd entries and also covers powerpc sparc. -- rob andrews :: pgp 0x01e00563 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On 6/29/07, Rob Andrews wrote: The Architecture entry in the control file is any - wine is only available[0] on i386 and amd64, so build will fail on other architectures. You should match wine's Architecture line. i've now modified the control file so that the package will be built only for the wine architectures. the new packages (0.8.2) are now available (http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/contrib/s/steam-powered). thanks for the suggestion! regards, mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On 6/29/07, Jon Dowland wrote: Just a few suggestions: 1) I'd add 'set -u' and 'set -e' to the top of steam-powered: I do this for every shell script I write. This might require some of the script to be re-written to cope with unbound variables, etc. i've added set -u to the script. this didn't require any further changes to the script, but i like it and it seems like it is good practice to do so. set -e is incompatible with my error detection approach for the steam 26% bug. wine returns an error when it hits the 26% bug, and set -e automatically exits the script before i can do any error handling. i added error processing after the curl download. and i use the -f option for the commands to make sure i don't get prompts or errors. so i think that error handling is pretty much complete at this point without needing set -e. 2) line 39: eval set -- $(getopt --quiet --alternative --longoptions=help,version --options= -- $@)$ What does eval do here? As far as I can see, you can omit it. i've greatly simplified the options processing. Otherwise I like it! thanks! the new package (0.8.2) is now available (http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/contrib/s/steam-powered). I am working on a generic data installer package which takes non-free data and generates .debs which satisfy dependencies. The first, domain-specific rough-cut of this is the doom-package package. I have been offline for a while and have yet to commit my latest work on this, I will do so over the weekend. You might find it interesting. cool, i'll take a look at it. regards, mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 03:17:35PM +1000, Ben Finney wrote: Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Package name: steam-powered Version : 0.8.0 Upstream Author : Michael Gilbert * URL : no web site * License : gpl for steam-powered script, non-free for downloaded game and game data What license do you have for the package? non-free isn't a license, it's a descriptor. I am hoping get more involved in packaging popular games for Debian. I understand that these popular games are mostly under non-free licenses, Worse, many of them are under non-free licenses that prohibit redistribution, either entirely or through clauses that exclude Debian from doing so. If that's so, your package can't be redistributed by Debian. You'll need to find the exact license text for the software to know whether that's the case. Start a thread on debian-legal (after confirming that the particular license hasn't already been discussed in the archives) and include the full text of the license for discussion. steam-powered is a downloader script like flashplugin-nonfree or quake2-data are so it can go in contrib. About your package, there is still some minor lintian warnings and /usr/bin/steam-powered should be in /usr/games/steam-powered. Your package should also depends on wine and curl since your script use them. I think so should also remove the --silent flag of curl or at last provide a --verbose parameter to disable it. Regards, Gonéri signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RFS: steam-powered
On 6/27/07, Ben Finney wrote: What license do you have for the package? non-free isn't a license, it's a descriptor. the entire contents of the steam-powered package are fully licensed under the GPL (there is no non-free content in the package). however, the steam-powered script does download non-free content from the http://www.steampowered.com website when it is run (this process is similar to msttcorefonts and other contrib packages mentioned above). the downloaded content (the steam executable for windows) is under Valve's Steam License Agreement. the Valve license is presented to the user when they run the script, and they are asked to agree with the terms imposed by the steam software. i think the package is ok to go into contrib as is. On 6/27/07, Gonéri Le Bouder wrote: steam-powered is a downloader script like flashplugin-nonfree or quake2-data are so it can go in contrib. i have modified the control file so the package will go into contrib/games. About your package, there is still some minor lintian warnings i fixed the lintian warnings by making sure my name matches as the maintainer in both the changelog and the control file. there are no longer any lintian warnings! and /usr/bin/steam-powered should be in /usr/games/steam-powered. i have updated the package so that the script is put in /usr/games. Your package should also depends on wine and curl since your script use them. the control file already has dependencies on wine, curl, cabextract, whiptail, and catdoc, so i think this is ok? I think so should also remove the --silent flag of curl or at last provide a --verbose parameter to disable it. i modified curl to use the --progress-bar option instead of --silent so that a simple progress meter is presented to the user. the new version of steam-powered (0.8.1) has now been uploaded to mentors. please review it at http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/contrib/s/steam-powered. thanks for the constructive feedback and helpful ideas. regards, mike
RFS: steam-powered
Dear mentors and game maintainers, I am looking for a sponsor for my package steam-powered. * Package name: steam-powered Version : 0.8.0 Upstream Author : Michael Gilbert * URL : no web site * License : gpl for steam-powered script, non-free for downloaded game and game data Section : games It builds these binary packages: steam-powered - Valve's steam game content delivery system The package can be found on mentors.debian.net: - URL: http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/s/steam-powered - Source repository: deb-src http://mentors.debian.net/debian unstable main contrib non-free - dget http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/s/steam-powered/steam-powered_0.8.0.dsc I am hoping get more involved in packaging popular games for Debian. I understand that these popular games are mostly under non-free licenses, and there tends to be a lot of resistance to non-free in the Debian community. However, gamers are a very important niche segment, and they are very hard to please. But I think we can start making inroads by providing packages for the games they like and thus making it easier for them to switch. If gamers were to start adopting GNU/Linux, it would be like a waterfall because there are so many of them, and they have a huge influence on the tech-savvy and non-tech-savvy crowds. I am also currently working on packages specifically for the steam games themselves such as counter-strike and half-life2, and will upload these if there is interest in sponsoring steam-powered. Thank you very much for your consideration. Regards, Michael Gilbert -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFS: steam-powered
Michael Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Package name: steam-powered Version : 0.8.0 Upstream Author : Michael Gilbert * URL : no web site * License : gpl for steam-powered script, non-free for downloaded game and game data What license do you have for the package? non-free isn't a license, it's a descriptor. I am hoping get more involved in packaging popular games for Debian. I understand that these popular games are mostly under non-free licenses, Worse, many of them are under non-free licenses that prohibit redistribution, either entirely or through clauses that exclude Debian from doing so. If that's so, your package can't be redistributed by Debian. You'll need to find the exact license text for the software to know whether that's the case. Start a thread on debian-legal (after confirming that the particular license hasn't already been discussed in the archives) and include the full text of the license for discussion. -- \ Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to | `\ recognize a mistake when you make it again. -- Franklin P. | _o__)Jones | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
