Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

Hi folks,

Sven (CCed) asked me if I could do something to get his ban lifted on
debian-powerpc as has happened on ocaml-list before.  It is my understanding
that Sven is actively participating in debian-powerpc efforts, and so it would
be nice if he could write to this list as well.

The listmasters required that some discussion be held, and once finished they
be pointed at it, so they can decide wether to lift it or not.

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Re: Sven Luther

[Børge Holen]

OMG this is still an issue.!.
You can praise yer bloddy moms for not living nearby, I would smack the whole 
lot of you.
Bollocks!

On Sunday 22 July 2007 11:44, Robert Millan wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Sven (CCed) asked me if I could do something to get his ban lifted on
> debian-powerpc as has happened on ocaml-list before.  It is my
> understanding that Sven is actively participating in debian-powerpc
> efforts, and so it would be nice if he could write to this list as well.
>
> The listmasters required that some discussion be held, and once finished
> they be pointed at it, so they can decide wether to lift it or not.
>
> --
> Robert Millan
>
> My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Note: this address is only intended
> for spam harvesters.  Writing to it will get you added to my black list.

-- 
---
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http://www.arivene.net
---

Re: Sven Luther

[Charles Plessy]

Le Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 11:44:08AM +0200, Robert Millan a écrit :
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> Sven (CCed) asked me if I could do something to get his ban lifted on
> debian-powerpc

Hi,

I am very surprised of this ban as it was never announced. The
explanations from the listmasters clearly state that the filter is to
prevent Sven to post on on debian-project. Of course, banning him on all
lists fullfies this purpose, but I think that in that case the wording
would be really unappropriate.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/05/msg00234.html

For this reason I support the lifting of the ban on -powerpc.

Actually, in the above mail, it is said that the ban should have been
lifted within a few days. This would be the thing to do in my opinion.
Requesting public judgement on a person who is not allowed to answer
seems to me unfair and unwise. And off-topic.

Have a nice day,

(CC Sven as well... Bonne journée)

-- 
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http://charles.plessy.org
Wako, Saitama, Japan


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Re: Sven Luther

[Peter Teunissen]

On 22-jul-2007, at 12:20, Charles Plessy wrote:


Le Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 11:44:08AM +0200, Robert Millan a écrit :


Hi folks,

Sven (CCed) asked me if I could do something to get his ban lifted on
debian-powerpc


Hi,

I am very surprised of this ban as it was never announced. The
explanations from the listmasters clearly state that the filter is to
prevent Sven to post on on debian-project. Of course, banning him  
on all

lists fullfies this purpose, but I think that in that case the wording
would be really unappropriate.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/05/msg00234.html

For this reason I support the lifting of the ban on -powerpc.


I know Sven form the debian lists to be a very knowledgable debian  
developer and participant on the powerpc branch. There has been some  
very disputable infighting on wich I was unable and unwiling to 'take  
sides' since _both_ sides showed annoying behavior that only helped  
to fuel the fight. If any 'banning' should follow from that period, a  
whole bunch of debian devs would have to banned which seems  
rediculous to me.


I see no reason to ban Sven completely from any debian lists and vote  
for the ban to be lifted.



my 2 c.

Peter

Re: Sven Luther

[Stephen Frost]

* Peter Teunissen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I see no reason to ban Sven completely from any debian lists and vote for 
> the ban to be lifted.

Yea, that's nice.  If you want to discuss Sven and his ban or whatever,
take it up on an appropriate list (ie: not this one).  The people who
can do something about it, if there's something to be done, probably
aren't even *on* this list.  All you're doing is annoying those people
who *are* on this list.

Go talk to the listmasters about it.

Thanks,

Stephen


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Re: Sven Luther

[Rick Thomas]

Sven could be a useful participant in future powerpc support, if  
allowed, as he has in the past.


I am not a Debian Developer, for lack of time to devote to the  
project, but I am very concerned about the deterioration in powerpc  
support.  Allowing Sven to participate would be a step toward  
correcting that problem.


Rick


On Jul 22, 2007, at 5:44 AM, Robert Millan wrote:



Hi folks,

something to get his ban lifted on debian-powerpc



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Re: Sven Luther

[Mike Hore]

Hi folks,

I'm fairly new to Debian and this list, and I don't even know what all 
this is about, but I'm involved in various other mailing lists which 
sometimes have quite heated discussion, so let me just make a couple of 
points:


** If a list is moderated, the usual procedure is to stop discussion of 
a particular controversial topic.  An individual is only blocked for 
spamming or the like.  This list isn't moderated so subject-level 
blocking wasn't available, still, the blocking of an individual seems 
*extremely* drastic.


** The "ban" announcement
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/05/msg00234.html
makes it clear that others besides Sven were involved, and it was only 
intended to be temporary till tempers cooled.  It's been nearly 2 months 
now.


So IMHO the ban (if it ever should have been applied) should end ASAP.

Cheers,  Mike.

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Re: Sven Luther

[Gregory Seidman]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 05:26:55PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote:
> * Peter Teunissen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > I see no reason to ban Sven completely from any debian lists and vote for 
> > the ban to be lifted.
> 
> Yea, that's nice.  If you want to discuss Sven and his ban or whatever,
> take it up on an appropriate list (ie: not this one).  The people who
> can do something about it, if there's something to be done, probably
> aren't even *on* this list.  All you're doing is annoying those people
> who *are* on this list.
> 
> Go talk to the listmasters about it.

Please read the original post that started this thread:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2007/07/msg00090.html

>   Thanks,
>   Stephen
--Greg


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Re: Sven Luther

[Stephen Frost]

* Gregory Seidman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Please read the original post that started this thread:
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2007/07/msg00090.html

As I said to someone else:
No, I was trying to avoid it.

Erm, so the listmasters are being idiotic about it, how nice.  Yeah, if
you're watching, I'd really rather *not* see this *discussion* about the
ban, unban, whatever, on a *technical* list.  It's *off-topic* and
pretty sad to have the listmasters encouraging it.

Do it or don't, don't try and punt on the decision.

Enjoy,  

Stephen


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Re: Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 05:26:55PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote:
> * Peter Teunissen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > I see no reason to ban Sven completely from any debian lists and vote for 
> > the ban to be lifted.
> 
> Yea, that's nice.  If you want to discuss Sven and his ban or whatever,
> take it up on an appropriate list (ie: not this one).  The people who
> can do something about it, if there's something to be done, probably
> aren't even *on* this list.  All you're doing is annoying those people
> who *are* on this list.
> 
> Go talk to the listmasters about it.

Hi Stephen,

I did.  As said in the other mail:

> > The listmasters required that some discussion be held, and once finished 
> > they
> > be pointed at it, so they can decide wether to lift it or not.

If you're bothered about this discussion, it's easy to setup a filter to skip
it completely (e.g. by Subject:).

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Re: Sven Luther

[Gunther Furtado]

2007/7/22, Robert Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


The listmasters required that some discussion be held, and once finished they
be pointed at it, so they can decide wether to lift it or not.



As I understand it, this is a question from the listmasters to the
list. So as an user/member of the list my answer is yes, I think Sven
must stay/return.

cheers,


--

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ResponderPara: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Sven Luther

[Greg Trigg]

I, for one, want to see the ban lifted.  Sven is one of the few who has 
made any effort to support IBM Power3 machines.  On the one post I did 
ask for help on, he was the only one to respond.  So far, he has the 
only kernel that will actually boot on my RS6000's.  It would be nice if 
the stock kernel that comes with Etch would do that.  It has something 
to do with the SCSI driver.  I get the white screen of death and never 
even make it to the penguin.


Robert Millan wrote:


On Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 05:26:55PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote:
 


* Peter Teunissen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   

I see no reason to ban Sven completely from any debian lists and vote for 
the ban to be lifted.
 


Yea, that's nice.  If you want to discuss Sven and his ban or whatever,
take it up on an appropriate list (ie: not this one).  The people who
can do something about it, if there's something to be done, probably
aren't even *on* this list.  All you're doing is annoying those people
who *are* on this list.

Go talk to the listmasters about it.
   



Hi Stephen,

I did.  As said in the other mail:

 


The listmasters required that some discussion be held, and once finished they
be pointed at it, so they can decide wether to lift it or not.
 



If you're bothered about this discussion, it's easy to setup a filter to skip
it completely (e.g. by Subject:).

 

Re: Sven Luther

[Simon Vallet]

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:44:08 +0200
Robert Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Sven (CCed) asked me if I could do something to get his ban lifted on
> debian-powerpc as has happened on ocaml-list before.  It is my understanding
> that Sven is actively participating in debian-powerpc efforts, and so it would
> be nice if he could write to this list as well.
> 
> The listmasters required that some discussion be held, and once finished they
> be pointed at it, so they can decide wether to lift it or not.

Well, as a PPC user, I think Sven has been very helpful on
debian-powerpc, and for the Debian PowerPC port in general. I don't
particularly want to know who's the bad guy and who's the good one:
this whole banning thing has IMO only had negative impacts.

I vote for this silly ban to get lifted.

Simon


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Re: Sven Luther

[Hans Ekbrand]

On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 07:42:18PM +0200, Simon Vallet wrote:
> Well, as a PPC user, I think Sven has been very helpful on
> debian-powerpc, and for the Debian PowerPC port in general. I don't
> particularly want to know who's the bad guy and who's the good one:
> this whole banning thing has IMO only had negative impacts.
> 
> I vote for this silly ban to get lifted.

I agree wholeheartedly with Simon.

-- 
Hans Ekbrand (http://sociologi.cjb.net) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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Re: Sven Luther

[Gunther Furtado]

2007/7/23, Gunther Furtado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

2007/7/22, Robert Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
As I understand it, this is a question from the listmasters to the
list. So as an user/member of the list my answer is yes, I think Sven
must stay/return.



I think I was not clear:

I think that the ban must be lifted!

sorry!

--

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ResponderPara: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Sven Luther

[Rick Thomas]

On Jul 22, 2007, at 5:44 AM, Robert Millan wrote:



The listmasters required that some discussion be held, and once  
finished they

be pointed at it, so they can decide wether to lift it or not.


Robert,

I think you can report to the listmasters that a discussion has been  
held, and the opinion of those who participated in the discussion was  
whole-heartedly that Sven should no longer be banned.


Perhaps, now we can put this whole issue behind us and get on with  
the work we came here to do!


Rick


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Re: Sven Luther

[sa9k063]

Hi,

i guess its futile to search for someone being guilty. probably
everybody involved has had bad days writing emails.

since this ban happened, the amount of ppc machines running debian i
mostly install for friends has dropped to zero, leaving only a single
one of my own machines running debian-powerpc.

i would like to see this childish ban removed.

my 2 ct,

teefour


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Re: Sven Luther

[Otavio Salvador]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Robert Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Hi folks,
>
> Sven (CCed) asked me if I could do something to get his ban lifted on
> debian-powerpc as has happened on ocaml-list before.  It is my understanding
> that Sven is actively participating in debian-powerpc efforts, and so it would
> be nice if he could write to this list as well.

I do second his ban removal from debian-powerpc mailing list.

- -- 
O T A V I OS A L V A D O R
- -
 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  UIN: 5906116
 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855
 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br
- -
"Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives
 you the whole house."
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8+ 

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Re: Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 05:07:10PM -0400, Rick Thomas wrote:
> 
> On Jul 22, 2007, at 5:44 AM, Robert Millan wrote:
> 
> >
> >The listmasters required that some discussion be held, and once  
> >finished they
> >be pointed at it, so they can decide wether to lift it or not.
> 
> Robert,
> 
> I think you can report to the listmasters that a discussion has been  
> held, and the opinion of those who participated in the discussion was  
> whole-heartedly that Sven should no longer be banned.

Done.

> Perhaps, now we can put this whole issue behind us and get on with  
> the work we came here to do!

Hope so :-)

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Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Cord Beermann]

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Debian - Listmaster
X-message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri, but it can do mail too.

Hi.

We just lifted the ban on Sven Luther on this list.

Comments:

The Ban on d-project has been publical announced in
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/05/msg00234.html I also
noted there that i hoped that this ban would be temporary.

After that some more things happened involving d-boot and d-private,
so listmasters decided to extend the ban to all lists and announced it
on d-private. (which was maybe wrong and we should have dropped a note
in d-project too)

As you might see in the Archive of d-project the name of Sven is still
causing irritations, so we now run the ban-lifting on a per request
basis and ask the users of the lists. (and d-powerpc isn't the first
list where we lifted the ban)

Even as the whole affair is unlucky, and asking on a technical list
about it is unappropriate, I can't understand why some people produce
mails like in
http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2007/07/msg00091.html or
http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2007/07/msg00099.html
these kind of responses aren't helpful in any way.

Yours,
Cord, Debian Listmaster of the day
-- 
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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Sven Luther]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 10:43:01PM +, Cord Beermann wrote:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Organization: Debian - Listmaster
> X-message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri, but it can do mail too.
> 
> Hi.
> 
> We just lifted the ban on Sven Luther on this list.

Thanks,

> Comments:
> 
> The Ban on d-project has been publical announced in
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/05/msg00234.html I also
> noted there that i hoped that this ban would be temporary.
> 
> After that some more things happened involving d-boot and d-private,
> so listmasters decided to extend the ban to all lists and announced it
> on d-private. (which was maybe wrong and we should have dropped a note
> in d-project too)
> 
> As you might see in the Archive of d-project the name of Sven is still
> causing irritations, so we now run the ban-lifting on a per request
> basis and ask the users of the lists. (and d-powerpc isn't the first
> list where we lifted the ban)

Cord, i believe that the right thing would have been for the ban to
happen on those lists which where users requested it, and not on all
lists as it has been. The concept of censorship that debian used against
me is a very grave act, and one of shame and dishonor for debian.

> Even as the whole affair is unlucky, and asking on a technical list
> about it is unappropriate, I can't understand why some people produce
> mails like in
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2007/07/msg00091.html or
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2007/07/msg00099.html
> these kind of responses aren't helpful in any way.

Nothing in this mess has been helpful, and i can understand Børge
reaction, which is the kind of reaction debian deserves for engaging in
censorship and expulsion over a damn childish personal vendetta of a few
guys.

But anyway, thanks for lifting the ban, now, let's see if we can bring
the powerpc port in action again, despite the clear will of the d-i
leadership to kill it. I wanted to participate in this evenings d-i irc
meeting (http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Meetings/Coordination),
to discuss the status of the powerpc port, but the d-i folk rejected my
participation.

So, the revival of the powerpc port passes either by someone else taking
the d-i powerpc job, or by forking d-i on powerpc, which will be a mess,
or alternatively beet some sense in those d-i and debian folk who
believe expulsion and censorship is an acceptable behaviour, and forget
what we agreed to in the social contract, namely to put our users and
free software as our top priorities.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Ingo Juergensmann]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 12:57:34AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:

> > We just lifted the ban on Sven Luther on this list.
> Thanks,

Yes, great! :)

> > As you might see in the Archive of d-project the name of Sven is still
> > causing irritations, so we now run the ban-lifting on a per request
> > basis and ask the users of the lists. (and d-powerpc isn't the first
> > list where we lifted the ban)
> Cord, i believe that the right thing would have been for the ban to
> happen on those lists which where users requested it, and not on all
> lists as it has been. The concept of censorship that debian used against
> me is a very grave act, and one of shame and dishonor for debian.
> > [...]
> Nothing in this mess has been helpful, and i can understand Børge
> reaction, which is the kind of reaction debian deserves for engaging in
> censorship and expulsion over a damn childish personal vendetta of a few
> guys.

But... 
Sven, I think it would be better to let the story rest in peace and to go on
and look forward instead looking backward. Nobody can change what happened,
but it will make many things easier for you, when you don't look back in
anger and always pointing everyone to what happened to you. 

> But anyway, thanks for lifting the ban, now, let's see if we can bring
> the powerpc port in action again, despite the clear will of the d-i
> leadership to kill it. I wanted to participate in this evenings d-i irc
> meeting (http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Meetings/Coordination),
> to discuss the status of the powerpc port, but the d-i folk rejected my
> participation.

Of course, everyone else should give you a fair chance either. Kicking you
out of an IRC meeting is not fair when you haven't complained about the past
so far. I hope that the d-i team stops its childish behaviour and becoming
interested in serious work and cooperation again. 
>From my point of view, the PPC port was losing quality after your expulsion
from the d-i team and it would be worthwhile for the port to get you back
doing serious work again. Both parties involved should concentrate on the
work to do and not on personal sympathy/antipathy. 
Let's up that everyone involved is professional enough to work together for
the sake of the PPC port!

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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 07:57:18AM +0200, Ingo Juergensmann wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 12:57:34AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> 
> > > We just lifted the ban on Sven Luther on this list.
> > Thanks,
> 
> Yes, great! :)
> 
> > > As you might see in the Archive of d-project the name of Sven is still
> > > causing irritations, so we now run the ban-lifting on a per request
> > > basis and ask the users of the lists. (and d-powerpc isn't the first
> > > list where we lifted the ban)
> > Cord, i believe that the right thing would have been for the ban to
> > happen on those lists which where users requested it, and not on all
> > lists as it has been. The concept of censorship that debian used against
> > me is a very grave act, and one of shame and dishonor for debian.
> > > [...]
> > Nothing in this mess has been helpful, and i can understand Børge
> > reaction, which is the kind of reaction debian deserves for engaging in
> > censorship and expulsion over a damn childish personal vendetta of a few
> > guys.
> 
> But... 
> Sven, I think it would be better to let the story rest in peace and to go on
> and look forward instead looking backward. Nobody can change what happened,
> but it will make many things easier for you, when you don't look back in
> anger and always pointing everyone to what happened to you. 

Yes, but when i tried to do this, during my self imposed ban in
january/february for example, and tried to go forward helping organize
the FOSDEM booth, they chose the occasion to relaunch the expulsion
procedure. Or when i provided over 30 patches for powerpc despite the
constrants set upon me, as documented in the wiki pages, they removed my
right to upload my own .udeb providing packages.

I have tried this many times in the past, and they wouldn't let me.

> > But anyway, thanks for lifting the ban, now, let's see if we can bring
> > the powerpc port in action again, despite the clear will of the d-i
> > leadership to kill it. I wanted to participate in this evenings d-i irc
> > meeting (http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Meetings/Coordination),
> > to discuss the status of the powerpc port, but the d-i folk rejected my
> > participation.
> 
> Of course, everyone else should give you a fair chance either. Kicking you
> out of an IRC meeting is not fair when you haven't complained about the past
> so far. I hope that the d-i team stops its childish behaviour and becoming
> interested in serious work and cooperation again. 

Given that it was Frans Pop who started all this, that he was the one
asking for my expulsion from debian (which debian's leadership agreed
to), i have little hope. Already in the thread starting in :

  http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2007/07/msg00323.html

they got criticized by others over the so called d-i leaderhsip acting
in a arrogant way and deciding unilateraly of things without consulting
the team. This is interesting, because it is one of the main complaint i
have against them, and which caused them to go in their witch-hunt
against me, since i was not "respectful" enough.

> >From my point of view, the PPC port was losing quality after your expulsion
> from the d-i team and it would be worthwhile for the port to get you back
> doing serious work again. Both parties involved should concentrate on the
> work to do and not on personal sympathy/antipathy. 

I am all for this, i made numerous conciliation offers in this
direction, but to no avail. The other party, strong in his power
position, sees absolutely no interest in compromising, or putting the
work and debian and our users before personal feud. And the way they
fighted me has hurt me in more ways than one.

> Let's up that everyone involved is professional enough to work together for
> the sake of the PPC port!

As said, i don't believe in this. Debian has proven that it cares more
about the d-i leadership vendeta than professionalism and technical
points, especially as they expulsed me on Frans request, without even
giving me a chance to discuss it.

I see only a few alternatives, but will provide them in another
fresh thread.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Cord Beermann]

Hallo! Du (Sven Luther) hast geschrieben:

> Given that it was Frans Pop who started all this, that he was the one
> asking for my expulsion from debian (which debian's leadership agreed
> to), i have little hope. Already in the thread starting in :
>
>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2007/07/msg00323.html

Sven, i'm close to cursing you. Frans left the project (who was btw the
most active listmaster for the archives), why keep picking on him?

I told you (and publically) that i am really unhappy with this whole
affair, i also tried to be neutral, but each time you spoiled it.

Why can't you just take the lift as it is, and use it to bring this
port forward?

Cord

PS: please don't answer rhetorical questions. thank you.

-- 
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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[benoar]

Selon Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 07:57:18AM +0200, Ingo Juergensmann wrote:
> > But...
> > Sven, I think it would be better to let the story rest in peace and to go on
> > and look forward instead looking backward. Nobody can change what happened,
> > but it will make many things easier for you, when you don't look back in
> > anger and always pointing everyone to what happened to you.
>
> Yes, but when i tried to do this, during my self imposed ban in
> january/february for example, and tried to go forward helping organize
> the FOSDEM booth, they chose the occasion to relaunch the expulsion
> procedure. Or when i provided over 30 patches for powerpc despite the
> constrants set upon me, as documented in the wiki pages, they removed my
> right to upload my own .udeb providing packages.
>
> I have tried this many times in the past, and they wouldn't let me.

I think that what everyone is trying to explain you is that this is not by
always telling the same story on different mailing lists that you will solve
this problem. I understand that you can't let this go as if nothing happened,
because there have been mistakes from both sides, and that you have been the
only one to be punished, and this is not fair.

If this is a problem with Frans Pop or anyone else, why don't you talk with him
? Because he doesn't want to ? So, what's the point of telling it to every
Debian user ? What could we do to that, as simple Debian user ? Launch a
petition ? Start a revolution ? Fork Debian ? The thing is, many users don't see
the point in being told this story again and again, as this only annoys them,
discredits you, and make the one who want you out of Debian laugh.

So please, find another way to solve this, as I don't think this method has
given any positive result for now. I don't know what to do, but as you saw on
this list, a lot of people are with you, and think that you are too much
important for the ppc port to be lost. Just try to change the way you fix your
relational problem with the other DDs.


Benjamin Cama


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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 08:05:03AM +, Cord Beermann wrote:
> Hallo! Du (Sven Luther) hast geschrieben:
> 
> > Given that it was Frans Pop who started all this, that he was the one
> > asking for my expulsion from debian (which debian's leadership agreed
> > to), i have little hope. Already in the thread starting in :
> >
> >   http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2007/07/msg00323.html
> 
> Sven, i'm close to cursing you. Frans left the project (who was btw the
> most active listmaster for the archives), why keep picking on him?

You are joking, right ? Frans did not leave anything, he still rules
unopposed on d-i.

> I told you (and publically) that i am really unhappy with this whole
> affair, i also tried to be neutral, but each time you spoiled it.
> 
> Why can't you just take the lift as it is, and use it to bring this
> port forward?

I cannot, because i am *TECHNICALLY* hindered to do so. Why can't you
ask the same question to those who are so out to hurt me ? 

Again, censorship is anathema, and evil, it is not something debian
should do.

And i will point to this fact as long as i live, which is the duty of
any human being with a sense for correctness and honour.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Stephen Frost]

* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> You are joking, right ? Frans did not leave anything, he still rules
> unopposed on d-i.
[...]

Whoah, whoah, whoah, take it somewhere else.  This is exactly why the
ban was put in place previously and if it's going to start back all over
again then it's going to have to be put back.

Thanks,

Stephen


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 12:06:57PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Selon Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 07:57:18AM +0200, Ingo Juergensmann wrote:
> > > But...
> > > Sven, I think it would be better to let the story rest in peace and to go 
> > > on
> > > and look forward instead looking backward. Nobody can change what 
> > > happened,
> > > but it will make many things easier for you, when you don't look back in
> > > anger and always pointing everyone to what happened to you.
> >
> > Yes, but when i tried to do this, during my self imposed ban in
> > january/february for example, and tried to go forward helping organize
> > the FOSDEM booth, they chose the occasion to relaunch the expulsion
> > procedure. Or when i provided over 30 patches for powerpc despite the
> > constrants set upon me, as documented in the wiki pages, they removed my
> > right to upload my own .udeb providing packages.
> >
> > I have tried this many times in the past, and they wouldn't let me.
> 
> I think that what everyone is trying to explain you is that this is not by
> always telling the same story on different mailing lists that you will solve
> this problem. I understand that you can't let this go as if nothing happened,
> because there have been mistakes from both sides, and that you have been the
> only one to be punished, and this is not fair.

Indeed, which is why i started another thread, clearly pointing the
current situation, with all its political messyness, and tried to see if
we could together work around those hurdles.

> If this is a problem with Frans Pop or anyone else, why don't you talk with 
> him
> ? Because he doesn't want to ? So, what's the point of telling it to every

Because since the start he refused to do so.

> Debian user ? What could we do to that, as simple Debian user ? Launch a
> petition ? Start a revolution ? Fork Debian ? The thing is, many users don't 
> see

A petition would be good. A real debian fork is what they deserve, but
too much work obviously.

> the point in being told this story again and again, as this only annoys them,
> discredits you, and make the one who want you out of Debian laugh.

Indeed. But i only pointed it out in order to put the situation
straigth, and see what we can do in this regard.

This evening there is a d-i meeting, and one of the topics i added is
the future of the powerpc port. The d-i leadership refused to have me
present at that meeting, without any valid reason, and in total
irrespect of the social contract and our users. 

Maybe a solution is for powerpc users to show up there :

  http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Meetings/Coordination

this evening, and ask the d-i folk to stop being childish *OR* to take
their responsabilities seriously, and do the work i used to do
themselves.

> So please, find another way to solve this, as I don't think this method has
> given any positive result for now. I don't know what to do, but as you saw on
> this list, a lot of people are with you, and think that you are too much
> important for the ppc port to be lost. Just try to change the way you fix your
> relational problem with the other DDs.

There is no chance to solve it. I was never even given a chance to even
discuss it, none of my compromise proposals where heard, none of my
efforts to abide by their unfair rules where noticed and appreciated, i
was only dealt punishement and expulsion, and hindrance to do the
technical work i like to do and for which the readers of this list
appreciate me. None of the Debian power structures (DAMs, DPL) had any
respect for my work or position, and ruled undiscutably in favour of the
other party, irrespective of the reality of their claims.

So, again, i pointed out the current situation, and tried to think about
possible workaround, and what we could do to solve it. Very few seem to
have read the second mail, or commented on it in a positive way yet.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Gaudenz Steinlin]

Hi Sven

I already asked you off list to stop your rants about Debian politics on
this list and I do so again for one last time on list. 

If you are unable to restrict yourself to purely technical posts then I
will ask the listmasters to reinstall the ban.

Please accept that others in Debian don't agree with you and that your
rants won't change that. I'm rellay tired of hearing this all over
again.

Gaudenz

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 12:15:56PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 12:06:57PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Selon Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > 
> > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 07:57:18AM +0200, Ingo Juergensmann wrote:
> > > > But...
> > > > Sven, I think it would be better to let the story rest in peace and to 
> > > > go on
> > > > and look forward instead looking backward. Nobody can change what 
> > > > happened,
> > > > but it will make many things easier for you, when you don't look back in
> > > > anger and always pointing everyone to what happened to you.
> > >
> > > Yes, but when i tried to do this, during my self imposed ban in
> > > january/february for example, and tried to go forward helping organize
> > > the FOSDEM booth, they chose the occasion to relaunch the expulsion
> > > procedure. Or when i provided over 30 patches for powerpc despite the
> > > constrants set upon me, as documented in the wiki pages, they removed my
> > > right to upload my own .udeb providing packages.
> > >
> > > I have tried this many times in the past, and they wouldn't let me.
> > 
> > I think that what everyone is trying to explain you is that this is not by
> > always telling the same story on different mailing lists that you will solve
> > this problem. I understand that you can't let this go as if nothing 
> > happened,
> > because there have been mistakes from both sides, and that you have been the
> > only one to be punished, and this is not fair.
> 
> Indeed, which is why i started another thread, clearly pointing the
> current situation, with all its political messyness, and tried to see if
> we could together work around those hurdles.
> 
> > If this is a problem with Frans Pop or anyone else, why don't you talk with 
> > him
> > ? Because he doesn't want to ? So, what's the point of telling it to every
> 
> Because since the start he refused to do so.
> 
> > Debian user ? What could we do to that, as simple Debian user ? Launch a
> > petition ? Start a revolution ? Fork Debian ? The thing is, many users 
> > don't see
> 
> A petition would be good. A real debian fork is what they deserve, but
> too much work obviously.
> 
> > the point in being told this story again and again, as this only annoys 
> > them,
> > discredits you, and make the one who want you out of Debian laugh.
> 
> Indeed. But i only pointed it out in order to put the situation
> straigth, and see what we can do in this regard.
> 
> This evening there is a d-i meeting, and one of the topics i added is
> the future of the powerpc port. The d-i leadership refused to have me
> present at that meeting, without any valid reason, and in total
> irrespect of the social contract and our users. 
> 
> Maybe a solution is for powerpc users to show up there :
> 
>   http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Meetings/Coordination
> 
> this evening, and ask the d-i folk to stop being childish *OR* to take
> their responsabilities seriously, and do the work i used to do
> themselves.
> 
> > So please, find another way to solve this, as I don't think this method has
> > given any positive result for now. I don't know what to do, but as you saw 
> > on
> > this list, a lot of people are with you, and think that you are too much
> > important for the ppc port to be lost. Just try to change the way you fix 
> > your
> > relational problem with the other DDs.
> 
> There is no chance to solve it. I was never even given a chance to even
> discuss it, none of my compromise proposals where heard, none of my
> efforts to abide by their unfair rules where noticed and appreciated, i
> was only dealt punishement and expulsion, and hindrance to do the
> technical work i like to do and for which the readers of this list
> appreciate me. None of the Debian power structures (DAMs, DPL) had any
> respect for my work or position, and ruled undiscutably in favour of the
> other party, irrespective of the reality of their claims.
> 
> So, again, i pointed out the current situation, and tried to think about
> possible workaround, and what we could do to solve it. Very few seem to
> have read the second mail, or commented on it in a positive way yet.
> 
> Friendly,
> 
> Sven Luther
> 
> 
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> 

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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter.
Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
~ Samuel Beckett ~


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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 06:23:28AM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote:
> * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > You are joking, right ? Frans did not leave anything, he still rules
> > unopposed on d-i.
> [...]
> 
> Whoah, whoah, whoah, take it somewhere else.  This is exactly why the
> ban was put in place previously and if it's going to start back all over
> again then it's going to have to be put back.

Well, face it, the dispute is still raging, and ignoring it will not
make it go away.

I apologize though, i thought this was a private answer to Cord, and not
destined to reach the list. mutt playing tricks on me, sorry.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Ban for debian-powerp on Sven Luther lifted.

[Sven Luther]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 12:45:56PM +0200, Gaudenz Steinlin wrote:
> Hi Sven
> 
> I already asked you off list to stop your rants about Debian politics on
> this list and I do so again for one last time on list. 

Indeed, so please, all, let's stop this thread now, and participate in
the other thread i started, to see if we can constructively go forward,
desite the political hurdles which impact our ability to do technical
work.

> If you are unable to restrict yourself to purely technical posts then I
> will ask the listmasters to reinstall the ban.

Indeed, and apart from menaces, can you also provide positive and
constrcutive comments ? 

> Please accept that others in Debian don't agree with you and that your
> rants won't change that. I'm rellay tired of hearing this all over
> again.

I accept that, and i started another thread to see if we can work around
those political hurdles. Please show that you can also provide positive
and constructive comments, and not just political rants, and participate
in that other thread.

/me is amazed how so many people ask me to not mention the ugly politcal
aspects, and engage in political rants themselves.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Sven Luther removed from the debian-kernel project

[Sven Luther]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 03:04:22PM +0200, Bastian Blank wrote:
> Hi team members, hi Sven
> 
> We, the admins and core team members of the debian-kernel project,

Who are the admins and core team members of the debian-kernel project,
and where did you discuss and decide that ? 

> decided to remove Sven Luther from the kernel project.

And whyever that ? Do you have a single reason for this action ? 

> The problems between Sven and the remain of the team did not decrease in

Can you tell me what those problems are ? 

> the last months. He decided to ignore a Nack on the Efika-patchset
> lately.

Well, the nack was not justified, neither was any communication
happening, and it is basically you and maximilian who decided this
without any argumentation. 

I remember you that one of the arguments you gave (the abi change) once
investigated, did not end up being as problematic as your initial NACK
suggested.

You also refused the PS3 patches, even though the linux/sony guys are
actively working on upstreaming those, and the patches are all neatly
separated in little patches.

> Some of us even ignore him on IRC.
> Bastian on behalf of the kernel team

The problems are also due on big part due to the total lack of
communication of you guys. 

Really sad that this happen, it is yet one more backstabbing from a team
i considered the members to be close friends once, and with whom we
achieved a lot when i had an active leadership role.

Sadly,

Sven Luther


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