Re: Complaint about #debian operator
Don Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just to clarify for those following along at home, the first +q was put in place for ten minutes as a time out to stop the off topic discussion and ideally to get the participants to move to another channel. (A +q silences the individual in question, while allowing them to remain on the channel.) +q is a bizarre half-ban flag which doesn't appear in many (any?) IRC newbie guides, confuses some software and used to give inciting error messages on freenode like the gods have taken your voice away (I have an unstable internet link today, so I haven't checked now). Please don't use it on newcomers. -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
Josh Rehman [EMAIL PROTECTED] As for being warned, I was told that because my discussion was about ubuntu I should stop. Because I felt my discussion was not about ubuntu, I did not feel that I should have to stop. Then you needed to explain why, not just continue blindly and rail against authority on-channel. Rightly or wrongly, op's have authority and railing on-channel usually brings a ban. I don't particularly agree with the second ban, though. Glad to hear; it is roughly equivalent to a customer service person hanging up on you when you ask to talk to their manager. Rubbish. The participants could not direct you to the manager on IRC and you continued after debian-project had been mentioned with vaguely menacing tone towards dondelelcaro. What were you going to do besides continue off-topic? I'm still not really clear on why asking questions about Debian is off-topic on #debian. [...] This was told to you a few times: this is a technical support channel, mostly and distribution discussions are not a priori on-topic I've had experience with IRC in the distant past (1999?), and egotistical users were a primary reason I don't use the service. I had expected a debian channel to be different. Why? We have the usual mix of supporters. [...] Telling a new user to shut up first thing is traditional troll behavior [...] Opening by asking whether anyone is alive is traditional troll behaviour (is there anyone to annoy?), possibly second only to a/s/l. I don't know whether it still does, but the #debian topic used to warn against that and asking to whether to ask. -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 11:16:19AM +, MJ Ray wrote: Telling a new user to shut up first thing is traditional troll behavior [...] Opening by asking whether anyone is alive is traditional troll behaviour (is there anyone to annoy?), It /might/ be traditional troll behaviour, it could just be unfamiliarity with IRC. So it is my belief that we should encourage those people to ask their questions, either directly or through a bot factoid and stay sensitive to their follow-up behaviour. Deadcat's responses weren't really called for, unless he really knew josh__ from various different channels already and even then, they appear rude to bystanders. Michael -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, MJ Ray wrote: Don Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A +q silences the individual in question, while allowing them to remain on the channel.) +q is a bizarre half-ban flag which doesn't appear in many (any?) IRC newbie guides, confuses some software and used to give inciting error messages on freenode like the gods have taken your voice away (I have an unstable internet link today, so I haven't checked now). Please don't use it on newcomers. The alternative is to ban and remove them outright. I prefer using +q, and I plan on continuing to use it, and advising other operators to use it as well. http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml has the documentation about this flag, and is where we point anyone who asks about exactly what happened. [I will be puting in a notice so that people who get silenced like this will have an explanation, but not using a useful tool because it's possibly confusing is silly.] Don Armstrong -- There is no such thing as social gambling. Either you are there to cut the other bloke's heart out and eat it--or you're a sucker. If you don't like this choice--don't gamble. -- Robert Heinlein _Time Enough For Love_ p250 http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
* David Nusinow: Martin, I'd like for you to come in to #debian. Not for an hour or a few hours, but for a few weeks to see what it's like. We have consistently refused to support non-Debian distros for years, including knoppix and ubuntu. AFAICT, the question which sparked this thread was not a support request. I can understand that you want to make Debian advocacy off-topic on #debian, to avoid flame wars. But advocacy-related discussions should not be sent straight to our alternatives (or competitors), either. I don't fear that the alternatives propagate a too biased view, but the message contained in such a refusal to discuss alternatives: a profound belief in our own elite status. IMHO, #debian-advocacy (if it exists) would be a better choice than #ubuntu. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 01:14:34PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote: IMHO, #debian-advocacy (if it exists) would be a better choice than #ubuntu. Totally, but somebody will have to operate that as well. I think nobody wants to suppress these discussions entirely, but they are just not manageable on #debian. If somebody writes up a good FAQ for that, this would be a good start (maybe even a wikipage?) If somebody even wants to operate a seperate channel for non-technical support even better. We just cannot expect the current #debian operators/regulars do this themselves. Michael -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 11:16:19AM +, MJ Ray wrote: Opening by asking whether anyone is alive is traditional troll behaviour (is there anyone to annoy?), It /might/ be traditional troll behaviour, it could just be unfamiliarity with IRC. [...] If one follows the instructions sent to everyone joining #debian, one is advised against asking meta-questions. Ignore advice at your own risk. Deadcat also did bad, but that doesn't excuse josh__ -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 02:43:51AM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: [Obviously, if someone knows of such a resource, feel free to modify the why debian factoid, or perhaps create a why not debian factoid on the bot that points to a website or something that goes into this topic in depth.] I don't know how to do that, but the relevant information published on the Ubuntu website is here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/relationship/ (where it has been since the website went live). It is also the first match for google(debian,ubuntu). The first two sentences on that page summarize it nicely: Ubuntu and Debian are closely related. Ubuntu builds on the foundations of Debian architecture and infrastructure, with a different community and release process. Debian is the rock upon which Ubuntu is built. -- - mdz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Saturday 10 December 2005 05:45 am, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.12.10.1358 +0100]: So they can go join #ubuntu. Honestly, not that hard. Type it with me now: /join #ubuntu Why should a Debian-Ubuntu comparison be any more on-topic on #ubuntu than it is on #debian? Ubuntu tries so hard to be Debian without actually contributing back to Debian. Let them compare on their own channel. -- Paul Johnson Email and Instant Messenger (Jabber): [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got jabber? http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber pgppGP9RRvkVL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Saturday 10 December 2005 06:12 am, Michael Banck wrote: You are welcome to idle in #debian and have a highlight on `ubuntu' to address these questions, should you have the time. I think whoever does that, and isn't paid to do so, will probably change that to a trigger so whenever ubuntu gets mentioned, it's immediately followed by /kick ubuntu-peon This channel is for Debian users, not you /mode +b ubuntu-peon -- Paul Johnson Email and Instant Messenger (Jabber): [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got jabber? http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber pgpd0vYjPtwBL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
Perfect link, thanks so much. Perhaps Don can put that one under his belt. On 12/11/05, Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 02:43:51AM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote: [Obviously, if someone knows of such a resource, feel free to modify the why debian factoid, or perhaps create a why not debian factoid on the bot that points to a website or something that goes into this topic in depth.] I don't know how to do that, but the relevant information published on the Ubuntu website is here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/relationship/ (where it has been since the website went live). It is also the first match for google(debian,ubuntu). The first two sentences on that page summarize it nicely: Ubuntu and Debian are closely related. Ubuntu builds on the foundations of Debian architecture and infrastructure, with a different community and release process. Debian is the rock upon which Ubuntu is built. -- - mdz -- All the soarings of my mind begin in my blood. -Rainer Maria Rilke
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Saturday 10 December 2005 04:57 am, Michael Banck wrote: Don't know whether you send the guy a private message, but perhaps a public message like foo: You have been silenced for 10 minutes due to repeated off-topicness, despite warnings or so would be alright, so they know it is not permanent and everybody knows what's going on. #debian has enough problems spamming the channel when they forget what /away is for. I fail to see how contributing to the noise instead of just disposing with people who can't be bothered to read the channel FAQ before saying something is in any way, shape or form anything other than harmful in the short and long term. -- Paul Johnson Email and Instant Messenger (Jabber): [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got jabber? http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber pgpPAF2c7IJA9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Saturday 10 December 2005 12:07 pm, Josh Rehman wrote: As for being warned, I was told that because my discussion was about ubuntu I should stop. Because I felt my discussion was not about ubuntu, I did not feel that I should have to stop. So you deliberately show newbie arrogance, get called on it, then complain? Dude, you got what you deserved, now you're just embarrassing yourself with how much you and most 13 year olds on AOL have in common. Also note that the channel's topic reads, besides others: Please note: this is not #ubuntu. Absolutely. What is wrong with understanding Debian better by figuring out where it differs from one of its derivations? Because that discussion is rehash of ubuntu's About page. If we want to read ubuntu's About page, we can go to their website. We don't need you to read it to us over IRC. I don't particularly agree with the second ban, though. Glad to hear; it is roughly equivalent to a customer service person hanging up on you when you ask to talk to their manager. No, it's not. It's not at all comparable. In the customer service scenario, you are paying them to give you the answers. In the open source IRC scenario, you're begging people to deal with your questions in their own free time for free. Why should they tolerate someone who obviously can't play by the rules at all? I'm still not really clear on why asking questions about Debian is off-topic on #debian. Sure, they are questions related to Ubuntu, but they are primarily about Debian. If they're related to Ubuntu, they're primarily about Ubuntu, don't ask them in Debian. Debian didn't come from Ubuntu, after all, most people on Debian don't know or care about Ubuntu problems. I frankly don't see the point of Ubuntu - AFAICT it's primary difference is billionaire flash. Being pointed to #ubuntu by Don and then banned by him reminds me of the sort of runaround one experiences with hardware vendors: it's not our problem, call Microsoft. Microsoft says, its not our problem, call the hardware vendor. Hardware vendor, well, maybe you should contact the reseller. Etc. Again, you falsely assume #debian is paid to care about your problem. Further, you were given directions on how to continue your discussion with `det' in private, but decided to continue argueing against `dondelecaro' instead. Frankly, I didn't understand those instructions. Furthermore, I still disagreed that my questions about Debian were off-topic in #debian. It's generally a bad idea to use network services you don't understand. IRC is just not for me, I think. I'm glad I gave it another shot, though. I would *highly* recommend altering the support page and/or setting down clear guidlines for channel operators. It might be good to find an operator who is humble, helpful, patient and intelligent. Oh, that's why you're not finding what you're looking for, you're looking in entirely the wrong place. You *really* should have checked this page first if you wanted someone willing to change diapers with silly questions. http://www.debian.org/consultants/ -- Paul Johnson Email and Instant Messenger (Jabber): [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got jabber? http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber pgpHNh7mNINo5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
On Sunday 11 December 2005 03:16 am, MJ Ray wrote: Telling a new user to shut up first thing is traditional troll behavior [...] Opening by asking whether anyone is alive is traditional troll behaviour (is there anyone to annoy?), possibly second only to a/s/l. I don't know whether it still does, but the #debian topic used to warn against that and asking to whether to ask. Yes, asking if you can ask a question is generally considered bad form on any channel, though large ones like #debian that get noob idiots looking for instant answers without any effort (these people really should be going to http://www.debian.org/consultants/ instead and pay for our time) tend to get particularly antsy about it. -- Paul Johnson Email and Instant Messenger (Jabber): [EMAIL PROTECTED] Got jabber? http://ursine.ca/Ursine:Jabber pgpMfUr8dCySz.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
Hi Paul, On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 04:32:10PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: So you deliberately show newbie arrogance, get called on it, then complain? Dude, you got what you deserved, now you're just embarrassing yourself with how much you and most 13 year olds on AOL have in common. This is a Debian mailing list. Please stay courteous or refrain from posting here. Thanks, Michael -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Complaint about #debian operator
* Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005:12:11 16:32 -0800]: On Saturday 10 December 2005 12:07 pm, Josh Rehman wrote: As for being warned, I was told that because my discussion was about ubuntu I should stop. Because I felt my discussion was not about ubuntu, I did not feel that I should have to stop. So you deliberately show newbie arrogance, get called on it, then complain? Dude, you got what you deserved, now you're just embarrassing yourself with how much you and most 13 year olds on AOL have in common. Paul, While it was kind of you to take time out of your busy schedule to berate Josh (I mean, I know -user needs a lot of attention from you...) could you please drop it? And FYI everyone else: Paul is not, to my knowledge, a regular in #debian, lest you be afraid this kind of behavior is tolerated in there. :) -- off the chain like a rebellious guanine nucleotide -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Second Call for Talks: Debian Devroom at FOSDEM 2006
On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 11:32:52AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Hi, Hi, Three weeks and one day have passed since I sent out my first Call for Talks[1] for the Debian DevRoom at the upcoming FOSDEM 2006[2] in Brussels, Belgium. For those who haven't heard about it, FOSDEM is the Free and Open-Source Developers European Meeting which takes place every year in the buildings of the ULB, the Université Libre de Bruxelles; due to it being organized by the community and for the community, it presents a unique opportunity for people of various FLOSS projects to meet eachother as well as to learn about the latest developments in the FLOSS world. For the third year in a row, Debian is having a DevRoom; we have one room with 76 seats booked for the whole weekend. Since my initial Call for Talks, people have proposed talks for a total of just over 4 hours. That's a good start, but we will need a lot more talks to fill the schedule; therefore, I am asking again for people to come forward and propose talks. The only requirement is that you have a technical talk about a Debian-related subject; this should not be a difficult requirement to meet. Are you still accepting talks, or am I late? I could make a talk about the Debian GNU/kFreeBSD port, something like the one I plan to do at Debconf 6. However, I am not yet sure I would be able to go at FOSDEM, I may have an other thing the same days. I should know that before the end of the week, so if you are interested, please tell me. Bye, Aurelien -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno | GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
