Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 09:54:38PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:51:38PM +0200, Fabian Grünbichler wrote: > > another case in point from last month(!) and a little more to the South, > > where Vienna hosted this year's Europride: > > > > https://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/ep/contentView.do/pageTypeId/66526/programId/74577/contentTypeId/1001/channelId/-47186/contentId/4203520 > > > > the rainbow flags on trams have been a stable of the weeks leading up to > > pride for years: > > > > https://www.vienna.at/2019/05/20190530-Regenbogenf%C3%A4hnchen-1-1-4-3-330933700-933x700.jpg > > > > one of the main sponsors this year was REWE group, which everyone from > > Austria or Germany is probably familiar with, but as were others like > > Coca-Cola, one of the biggest banks in Austria, Siemens and some > > public/privatized stuff like unions, state railways, public transport of > > Vienna, .. full list here: https://europride2019.at/sponsors-partners/ > > Did any of those companies change their website logo for a month? The Viennese public transport company has been doing it for years on their tram ways (not sure of the exact duration, but a few weeks at least around the Vienna Pride and Lifeball), and had lots of ads and stuff like slogans on their electronic schedule displays this year. Coca-Cola sold (still stocked in some shops) bottles heavily featuring pride flags and slogans, which is arguably a lot more visible than changing a logo on a website. REWE put up rainbow/pride flags on each of their shop entrances a few years ago, those are still there today and year-round (https://www.rewe-group.com/de/newsroom/stories/rewe-setzt-auf-regenbogen/). Siemens heavily promoted their sponsoring of and participation in Europride on Facebook at least, their last two posts are pride-related. Those are just the first instances that came to my mind without googling, or that were linked directly from the index of their respective web sites. It does feel kind of ridiculous to have to post message like this (and feel like I have to promote or defend corporations that I don't care about at all) - obviously companies sponsoring an event like Europride also promote that fact publicly, it's the point of sponsoring after all. Some probably do it for PR reasons, some do it because their employees take the initiative, for some it might be an area of personal interest for people making such decisions. That it is no problem[1] in a country with a political climate like Austria to host such an event and get it sponsored by lots of big, boring companies, but that it causes such waves inside Debian to change the logo on the website to that of the appropriate Debian team speaks volumes IMHO. It probably also shows why such teams and initiatives are still sorely needed today and for the forseeable future. I likely won't post another mail to this thread, it's past the point of being tiresome already. 1: Of course there was the usual sorry and small lot of fundamental christians and neo-nazis to protest the pride parade itself. Yes, this is a very accurate description of who organized that and showed up there.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:51:38PM +0200, Fabian Grünbichler wrote: > another case in point from last month(!) and a little more to the South, > where Vienna hosted this year's Europride: > > https://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/ep/contentView.do/pageTypeId/66526/programId/74577/contentTypeId/1001/channelId/-47186/contentId/4203520 > > the rainbow flags on trams have been a stable of the weeks leading up to > pride for years: > > https://www.vienna.at/2019/05/20190530-Regenbogenf%C3%A4hnchen-1-1-4-3-330933700-933x700.jpg > > one of the main sponsors this year was REWE group, which everyone from > Austria or Germany is probably familiar with, but as were others like > Coca-Cola, one of the biggest banks in Austria, Siemens and some > public/privatized stuff like unions, state railways, public transport of > Vienna, .. full list here: https://europride2019.at/sponsors-partners/ Did any of those companies change their website logo for a month? Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:59:35PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote: > Marc Haber writes: > > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 10:32:04AM -0600, Jason Crain wrote: > >> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:40:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > >> > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for > >> > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and > >> > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be > >> > considered offensive by people in the US. > >> > >> I have a hard time believing that German culture prevents you (or > >> Debian) from supporting gay pride, > > > > That is not what Adrian tried to say. Don't try turning his words around > > against him. No German company would change its logo for a pride month, > > and if they did, other minorities would sue for their own logo month on > > basis of discrimination. > > It is not a company, but the Berlin government (text in german): > > https://www.rbb24.de/panorama/beitrag/2019/07/pride-berlin-csd-lesbisch-schwul-stadtfest.html > > Caption: "Pride weeks start: Berlin town hall hoist the rainbow flag" > > And if I remember correctly, Travis CI, which *is* a german company > (Rigaer Straße 8, 10247 Berlin, Germany, just in my neighborhood) had a > gay pride logo last year on their web page. > > As I said: this is not an anglo-german cultural conflict. > > Best reards > > Ole another case in point from last month(!) and a little more to the South, where Vienna hosted this year's Europride: https://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal3/ep/contentView.do/pageTypeId/66526/programId/74577/contentTypeId/1001/channelId/-47186/contentId/4203520 the rainbow flags on trams have been a stable of the weeks leading up to pride for years: https://www.vienna.at/2019/05/20190530-Regenbogenf%C3%A4hnchen-1-1-4-3-330933700-933x700.jpg one of the main sponsors this year was REWE group, which everyone from Austria or Germany is probably familiar with, but as were others like Coca-Cola, one of the biggest banks in Austria, Siemens and some public/privatized stuff like unions, state railways, public transport of Vienna, .. full list here: https://europride2019.at/sponsors-partners/
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Marc Haber writes: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 10:32:04AM -0600, Jason Crain wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:40:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: >> > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for >> > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and >> > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be >> > considered offensive by people in the US. >> >> I have a hard time believing that German culture prevents you (or >> Debian) from supporting gay pride, > > That is not what Adrian tried to say. Don't try turning his words around > against him. No German company would change its logo for a pride month, > and if they did, other minorities would sue for their own logo month on > basis of discrimination. It is not a company, but the Berlin government (text in german): https://www.rbb24.de/panorama/beitrag/2019/07/pride-berlin-csd-lesbisch-schwul-stadtfest.html Caption: "Pride weeks start: Berlin town hall hoist the rainbow flag" And if I remember correctly, Travis CI, which *is* a german company (Rigaer Straße 8, 10247 Berlin, Germany, just in my neighborhood) had a gay pride logo last year on their web page. As I said: this is not an anglo-german cultural conflict. Best reards Ole
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 11:51:18AM -0300, Chris Lamb wrote: > I wish to posit the existence of a third group who are not partipating > in this discussion. > This group are simply too exhausted and bored of making the same > refutations in these debates and have long given up trying. Indeed, > they likely find themselves too physically and emotionally numb to > invest in -project or lists outside their niche interests. They may > have even made steps to distance themselves from Debian entirely due > to low-level feelings of fatigue that they cannot put words to, > compounded by having no desire to be associated with a certain > retrograde culture that they perceive the Project projects. This. So very much this. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:33:25PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote: > Adrian Bunk writes: > > In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people: > > > > The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various > > minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political > > mission. > > > > The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for > > non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political > > technical project. > > > > Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it: > > The people with English as native language are in the first group. > > The people with German as native language are in the second group. > > Sorry, but can we stop this a bit? > > Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities, Being a discriminated against minority, I think Debian should *not*. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 10:32:04AM -0600, Jason Crain wrote: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:40:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for > > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and > > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be > > considered offensive by people in the US. > > I have a hard time believing that German culture prevents you (or > Debian) from supporting gay pride, That is not what Adrian tried to say. Don't try turning his words around against him. No German company would change its logo for a pride month, and if they did, other minorities would sue for their own logo month on basis of discrimination. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 05:40:54PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for > people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and > what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be > considered offensive by people in the US. I have a hard time believing that German culture prevents you (or Debian) from supporting gay pride, when I am pretty certain that there are gay pride events in Germany. > And it is not correct if we are asked to learn about your history > and cultural background just for being allowed to discuss that we > consider something offensive. Which is why I explained the significance of Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter. And while those two movements are specific to the US, the implications of that tactic, of distracting from minority issues, should apply cross-culturally. Several of the things you've said, especially the suggestion to "honor a month of white heterosexual men", are so frequently brought up by white nationalists in the US that it's difficult for me to write it off as a cultural difference. I second the suggestion that you should research diversity and civil rights issues to avoid that connotation.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 04:07:40PM +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote: > Hi! > > > On 02.07.19 22:21, Adrian Bunk wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > Every country has its own conventions, problems and solutions. > > But these are often specific to one country, and not applicable > > to other countries or global projects. > > People should be expected to research movements that are relevant only > > in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being > > allow to discuss on Debian lists. > > > Let's look at some non-obvious but possibly relevant differences: > > > > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places. > > > > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism > > if skin color would play any role in university admission. >... > So surely, on paper, universities do not discriminate, >... Some US universities do consider race in admission. It is called "affirmative action". White people need to be better than black people for university admission. Asian people need to be better than white people for university admission. And this consideration of race is done officially. I have never heard about a German university officially stating that they are giving preferred treatment in admission for people with Turkish roots because they are underrepresented among students. Officially asking people about their ancestry in university admission would also remind people of terms like Ariernachweis and Halbjude, which makes the holocaust a reason against doing that in Germany. > Cheers, > Ulrike >... cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Adrian Bunk writes: > In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people: > > The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various > minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political > mission. > > The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for > non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political > technical project. > > Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it: > The people with English as native language are in the first group. > The people with German as native language are in the second group. Sorry, but can we stop this a bit? Being german, I think that Debian should honor discriminated minorities, and I also think that it is impossible to encapsulate the politics from a technical project. And I am sure that I am not the only one. At least my professional and personal environment goes into the same direction. If you like, you can even derivate that from the german history. People are not only formed by their national culture. They are as well formed by their professional contacts, by their friends, by the way they get information and so on. The conflict that we have here is not an anglo-german (or other) cultural one. It is one of the specific people involved in Debian, who are only a very small, absolutely non-representative portion of the population of any country. Best regards Ole
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Martina Ferrari writes ("Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them"):
> Ian, Norbert observation seems to be true. While you have highlighted
> problematic behaviour in many cases, it does seem to be the case that
> you are using non-blind CCs to AH as a way to put extra pressure on
> people you disagree with.
That was not my intention, but now that you point it out, I can see
that this is an obvious effect/interpretation.
> Please, don't do that unless absolutely
> necessary, you can always BCC.
I will try to follow your advice, sorry.
Ian.
--
Ian JacksonThese opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Norbert, On 03/07/2019 14:44, Norbert Preining wrote: > This is a common pattern in Ian's emails. I would dare to call it > "sublimal threatening". Unfortunately nobody in Debian seems to think > that this is harassment, in particular the AH team seems not to think > so. Please, do not speculate on what we have or have not said to other members of the project, we do most of our work in private channels to respect everybody's privacy. After that caveat, I want to address Ian. Ian, Norbert observation seems to be true. While you have highlighted problematic behaviour in many cases, it does seem to be the case that you are using non-blind CCs to AH as a way to put extra pressure on people you disagree with. Please, don't do that unless absolutely necessary, you can always BCC. -- Martina Ferrari (Tina, the artist formerly known as Tincho)
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Adrian Bunk wrote: > In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people: > > The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various > minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political > mission. > > The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for > non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political > technical project. > > Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it: I wish to posit the existence of a third group who are not partipating in this discussion. This group are simply too exhausted and bored of making the same refutations in these debates and have long given up trying. Indeed, they likely find themselves too physically and emotionally numb to invest in -project or lists outside their niche interests. They may have even made steps to distance themselves from Debian entirely due to low-level feelings of fatigue that they cannot put words to, compounded by having no desire to be associated with a certain retrograde culture that they perceive the Project projects. If asked to charecterise this thread, they may attempt to be objective by pointing out that dissecting the minutæ of (say) Hispanic culture or the «Historikerstreit» is a distraction at best, and might even charitibly concede that the thread is a dry satire of the "just asking questions" or the "tired arguments presented as an insightfully novel rebuttal" genres. However, the majority of their response would frankly not be to its advantage, let alone repeatable in polite company. This is all to say that I would issue a not-insignificant caution to all from making crass or otherwise premature overgeneralisations about who constitutes this esteemed Project. Regards, -- ,''`. : :' : Chris Lamb `. `'` la...@debian.org chris-lamb.co.uk `-
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:05:08AM -0600, Jason Crain wrote: > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > > > > [listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment here] > > >... > > > If you are going to participate in a diversity discussion beyond a > > > certain point you do need to actually spend some time with google just > > > as you would for any technical topic. > > > > > > In this instance, researching arguments about privilege, criticism of > > > the all lives matter movement, explanations behind the black lives > > > matter movement (and why it is important to its members) would all be > > > valuable. > > >... > > > > ... > > People should [not] be expected to research movements that are relevant > > only > > in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being > > allow to discuss on Debian lists. > > The Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter references were intended to > explain that the suggestion to replace gay pride month with an "all are > welcome" event is not going to be viewed as inclusive, but is going to > be viewed as an attempt to dismiss and ignore LGBTQIA+ / other minority > issues. >... ... be viewed *by people in the US* as an attempt to ... Slavery in the United States, the US Civil War, Martin Luther King Jr., Black Lives Matter, All Lives Matter - these are part of your cultural background that can explain how you think about these things. Starting and losing two world wars, the holocaust, Germany being divided after the second world war, people living in non-free societies 1933-1945 and in East Germany then until 1990 - these are part of the German cultural background and can explain how we Germans think about things. In this gay pride month discussion what is politically correct for people in the US is considered offensive by people in Germany, and what would be considered politically correct by Germans would be considered offensive by people in the US. This is the root cause of disagreement in this discussion. And it is not correct if we are asked to learn about your history and cultural background just for being allowed to discuss that we consider something offensive. Diversity in a global project requires accepting that there are major cultural differences between participants. cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Hi!
> On 02.07.19 22:21, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Every country has its own conventions, problems and solutions.
> But these are often specific to one country, and not applicable
> to other countries or global projects.
> People should be expected to research movements that are relevant only
> in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being
> allow to discuss on Debian lists.
> Let's look at some non-obvious but possibly relevant differences:
>
> People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places.
>
> In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism
> if skin color would play any role in university admission.
This sentence sounds nice in theory, but does unfortunately not tell us
anything about actual racism, social differences, disadvantages and
discrimination that minorities do experience in Europe, not only in
universities.
Your sentence makes it look like discrimination does not exist, so I'd
like to invite you to read up a bit before making such a bold statement.
- How is one's origin linked to social class?
- How is one's gender linked to class?
Search engines might help with the search term "social reproduction", as
coined by Bourdieu. [1]
So surely, on paper, universities do not discriminate, but structurally,
there is discrimination against minorities, and this can be seen in all
sorts of statistics (wage differences between women and men, actual
student numbers with "migratory background" [2] as being
not-born-from-German-passport-holding-parents is called in German
administrations).
> Children in the US grow up learning that they are living in the greatest
> country in the world, an example for the world.
Sigh. It happens that cultural hegemony is often inadvertedly exerted by
some people socialized in the USA (or France, or Japan, or Germany or
Russia or ${country}). Sometimes people are unable to see that people
who grew up elsewhere have not the same cultural references as them.
Let's point it out to them, when it happens but let's not make it a
binary opposition in a world view which goes along the lines of good and
evil.
The image that you depict of the world opposes one (supposed) value
system to the other, however, I would argue that it is a matter of
socialization, not of any immovable cultural difference.
> Children in Germany grow up learning that "I am proud of being German"
> is an unacceptable antisemitic expression, nearly synonymous to
> "I am proud of the holocaust".
This might be true, in particular for the generation whose parents and
grand-parents were alive during 1933-45. But the issue is not about
coming from a country with the nazi past. Remember? other countries had
similar movements, from the Italian fascists, Spain had Franco, France
had the Vichy government under Pétain. The issue is instead that it is
totally absurd to be "proud" of a nation, whichever it is.
> In this discussion here we have two pretty distinct groups of people:
>
> The first group has the opinion that Debian should honor various
> minorities, and that Debian in general should have also a political
> mission.
>
> The second group is unhappy with people being honored by Debian for
> non-technical reasons, and wants Debian in general to be a non-political
> technical project.
>
> Easy to miss, but obvious once you are aware of it:
I certainly believe that there were more peole involved in this thread
than German and English native speakers.
> The people with English as native language are in the first group.
> The people with German as native language are in the second group.
Uh. No. As a German native speaker am definitely not unhappy "with
people being honored by Debian for non-technical reasons, and wants
Debian in general to be a non-political technical project" and I think
you should refrain from making such assumptions.
On a sidenote, I noticed that ~98% of the people who expressed their
view on this thread are white heterosexual (to my knowledge) males. What
does this tell us?
> It is likely not the language itself and causes might be different
> from what I outlined above, but it looks pretty clear to me that
> language/cultural/geographical differences are the root cause of
> these disagreements.
>
> And this makes you appear very offensive, and it might even drive people
> out of Debian, if you try to push your groups opinion in Debian
> mistakenly thinking people who fundamentally disagree with you would
> only be uninformed.
I agree with Sam, and I think this thread has really nothing to do with
debian-project anymore.
I am very surprised at how the above mentioned 98% people who have
voiced their rejection here, fear that politics might enter a technical
sphere. (As if this sphere was autonomous from the rest of the planet!
Spoiler alert: it is not. Your computer parts come from Kongo, Taiwan,
China. Our conversations go through globally
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On 03/07/2019 13:54, Adrian Bunk wrote: > BTW: > Was your longer reply to me intentionally only Cc'ed to > antiharassment/listmaster/leader, or could you forward > it also to debian-project? > There is nothing private involved, and if you want want action to > be taken against me for my statements in this discussion then let's > discuss this openly. I want to take the opportunity to make it clear to Adrian and everyone else that CCing Anti-Harassment, or forwarding emails, is not a request for taking actions against a person. We accept and encourage members of the community to engage the AH team early in situations where there are risks of escalating into serious misbehaviour; or when small but negative actions are seen, as to let us work with the person before that becomes a persistent pattern. Note that I am not saying anything about Adrian in particular, the conversation in general has been deteriorating, and I think everyone would do well in trying to listen to the "other" side, and disagree respectfully. In many cases, acknowledging that positions are irreconcilable and stopping the debate can be a good outcome too. -- Martina Ferrari (Tina, the artist formerly known as Tincho)
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Dear Ian, We are aware of your opinions, and your stance toward continental culture. And without doubt you showed this stance again in a very clear way. Thanks. On July 3, 2019 9:54:44 PM GMT+09:00, Adrian Bunk wrote: >On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 01:00:42PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: >BTW: >Was your longer reply to me intentionally only Cc'ed to >antiharassment/listmaster/leader, or could you forward >it also to debian-project? >There is nothing private involved, and if you want want action to >be taken against me for my statements in this discussion then let's >discuss this openly. This is a common pattern in Ian's emails. I would dare to call it "sublimal threatening". Unfortunately nobody in Debian seems to think that this is harassment, in particular the AH team seems not to think so. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:17:50PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places. > > > > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism > > if skin color would play any role in university admission. > [...] > > Children in the US grow up learning that they are living in the greatest > > country in the world, an example for the world. > > > > Children in Germany grow up learning that "I am proud of being German" > > is an unacceptable antisemitic expression, nearly synonymous to > > "I am proud of the holocaust". > [...] > > This. This and the rest of your post. > You nailed it. I fully agree with Adrian. We have a cultural issue here. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 08:14:40AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > > [listmaster copied in hopes they will agree with my assessment here] > >... > > If you are going to participate in a diversity discussion beyond a > > certain point you do need to actually spend some time with google just > > as you would for any technical topic. > > > > In this instance, researching arguments about privilege, criticism of > > the all lives matter movement, explanations behind the black lives > > matter movement (and why it is important to its members) would all be > > valuable. > >... > > ... > People should [not] be expected to research movements that are relevant only > in a handful of countries with < 10% of the earths population for being > allow to discuss on Debian lists. The Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter references were intended to explain that the suggestion to replace gay pride month with an "all are welcome" event is not going to be viewed as inclusive, but is going to be viewed as an attempt to dismiss and ignore LGBTQIA+ / other minority issues. > Hispanic people only being welcome for diversity in Debian if they > already have the privilege of being in the US, but not welcome for > diversity in Debian if they live in Mexico or South America might > only make sense from a US-only point of view. The US has a long history of racism and misogyny, and those issues are especially prevalent in the tech community. I expect that every country has similar issues, though the details on who is impacted are likely different.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 01:00:42PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Adam Borowski writes ("Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them"):
> > On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places.
> > >
> > > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism
> > > if skin color would play any role in university admission.
>...
> 3. What you say about positive discrimination is simply untrue in at
> least the UK. See for example Equality Act 2010 Part II Chapter 2,
> "Positive action".
Don't blame Adam for things I said.
"most" != "all", and AFAIK the UK differs from continental Europe on
that and is closer to what is being done in the US.
Which also matches what side people from the UK are in this discussion.
cu
Adrian
BTW:
Was your longer reply to me intentionally only Cc'ed to
antiharassment/listmaster/leader, or could you forward
it also to debian-project?
There is nothing private involved, and if you want want action to
be taken against me for my statements in this discussion then let's
discuss this openly.
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re : debian.net : Your site isn’t getting organic traffic.
Hi debian.net For the first time ever, we are introducing a marketing program that guarantees returns on your investments. Else, we'll spend from our own pockets until you get the desired results. *What we offer:* Adword Management Facebook Advertising Twitter Advertising Social Media Management Brand Awareness Mobile App Promotion & more.. Sounds interesting? What we need is a suitable schedule & your preferred communication platform (phone, email, whatsapp, skype or something else) to discuss further. I look forward to hearing from you. Warm Regards, Dolly Matt, --- Note: If you are not interested, please email with the subject line "No" and I will be happy to update my data base.
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Adam Borowski writes ("Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them"):
> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:21:03PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > People in the US are used to minority quotas in various places.
> >
> > In most European countries it would be considered unacceptable racism
> > if skin color would play any role in university admission.
> [...]
> > Children in the US grow up learning that they are living in the greatest
> > country in the world, an example for the world.
> >
> > Children in Germany grow up learning that "I am proud of being German"
> > is an unacceptable antisemitic expression, nearly synonymous to
> > "I am proud of the holocaust".
> [...]
>
> This. This and the rest of your post.
> You nailed it.
I think this is compete nonsense.
1. Those of us who are in favour of promoting diversity this way
include Russ and Colin and me and numerous other people from whatever
side of the Atlantic and elsewhere.
2. The stuff about Germany and the Nazis, wtf ? Is this some kind of
crazy alt-right dogwhistle ? It has no relevance here.
3. What you say about positive discrimination is simply untrue in at
least the UK. See for example Equality Act 2010 Part II Chapter 2,
"Positive action".
--
Ian JacksonThese opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
Release Party at the Binary Kitchen in Regensburg, Germany
Hi, Just a short (overdue) announcement that there will be a Release Party in Regensburg at the local hackspace "Binary Kitchen". For details see: https://wiki.debian.org/ReleasePartyBuster/Germany/Regensburg As the weather seems to be nice on the release weekend, we will sit together, have some $BEVERAGES (sold at the hackspace; there is mate in different flavours, beer, cola …) and a nice BBQ. (Please bring your own food) There will also some ad-hoc keysigning, so maybe bring your fingerprints. -- Cheers, tobi
