Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
Hi Paul, "Paul R. Tagliamonte" writes: > Very sad and disturbed by all of his behavior. I very much hope he gets the > help he needs and gets well soon. I would like to ask you to not comment on other people's mental health on public mailing lists. We don't do this for people who endorse individual violence & right of the person who is physically stronger (even though they live in a place where there is a collective agreement to leave violence to elected governments and haven't moved to countries where lynching is accepted), people who have anger management issues (and get extremely angry when they don't get what they want), or people who believe in conspiracy theories either. If you really feel sending such mails would be helpful, please only send them in private mail to the concerned party. Ansgar
Re: I get to hope
Hello, sam: > But when you tell me that *i do not get to hope for that*--when you > presume that I don't know how hard it is, you go too far. That is an > attack on my identity that I feel more strongly than an attack on me > because I'm blind or queer. I know; I've experienced all of the > above. I do not presume to know what it is like living in your skin; > I ask that you extend me the same. I'm sorry that I directly attacked you and made you feel like I don't respect your identity. I think I understand why you took my words personally: I used "you" in a way that any reader would think points to you, but it was meant for "people", including me. I don't have a bad feeling on your writings, but a bad wording can make conflicts escalate, I apologize for that and hope we can understand each other past this. Sam Hartman: > […] > And I understand that bringing that respect is almost impossible if you > haven't made it a significant aspect of your life to do the work to > provide that sort of respect. > Even if you have it's really difficult and you will sometimes fail. I had a hard time understanding this, but in the end I think you meant that we must also take into account that everyone needs to work hard in order to understand people and provide respect. I agree with that, I reckon I have been having a vry long journey about it for yeaars and still it's only the very beginning, as you have seen here… But I will not use it as an excuse, neither for me or for anyone. I will not cry when someone tells me I'm attacking their identity, I will try to listen and think and apologize if I feel like I should. I hope people will tell me when I hurt them, as you did, and no matter the way they tell it, I should listen and think. And specifically if someone tells me or if I can imagine there is a systemic oppression in the game. I changed because I got argued and shout at a lot, and that is sad but that's mainly how people will change: being shout at. And I say "mainly", not "all the time". I'm not talking about you personally here, I'm not saying I must shout at you or anything, I'm only trying to explain my vision of "telling people how they hurt"! (I really don't want anything to be taken personally here, but my english skills are quite limited which makes it much harder!) So I'm usually quite easy with people I don't know, and many times I fail, as I did with you… And I failed because I have an ego sometimes I can't refrain and didn't think my words could hurt you. If I had thought you could straight away understand my words I would have been keener. I'm very sorry about that. > More than anything else, I want--I hope for--a world of compassion. > It's something thatI've spent years of my life on. > It's something that I've taken religious vows to support. > And no it is not easy. > And no I don't expect others to be able to do that, and I understand > (although sometimes disagree) when they do not. > > BUT I GET TO HOPE AND DREAM FOR the WORLD IN WHICH I WISH TO LIVE. Fine! I'm not exactly sure what did I say that meant you should not hope for a better world, because I deeply think I would be dead if I had no hope at all. It's tiny, but it's here. Otherwise this discussion would not happen (why would I spent so much time writing if I had no hope at all?) So yes, having hope is important, maybe even vital! (I will not go further in the debate "should we hope or not" because it's a very interesting but infinite off-topic discussion, but we can have it privately if you feel like it! I have not settled something of course, but I'm not an optimistic person regarding human beings, including myself) > And I am still a supporter of your humanity, your journey even when I > hope for a kind of compassion that you (and sometimes I) are unable or > unwilling to deliver. > Even if you don't share my hope. > > I do not turn my hopes into expectations for you. My hopes do influence > how I think about some things in Debian. I do hope we find more > compassion. I do hope that we find ways of deescalating conflict. We > must not compromise on treating people with dignity and respect > regardless of how they identify themselves. We cannot compromise with > people who would deny that basic humanity. > > But yes, when people are exposed to violence, they are going to lash out > like Tina did. I get that. > And to respect Tina and your humanity (and everyone else walking a > similar path), we need to listen to you when you lash out. We need to > make sure that civility does not become a tool to trample dignity. I am a very big fan of all you say here I must say! Thank you for these words, and taking the time to make your discourse clearer (for me), and for reading me.
Re: Understanding position of debian developer
On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 11:09 PM John Lenin wrote: > I was just going through debian project in general and had a problem in > understanding what debian developers are. The phrase "Debian Developer" refers to a Debian member; someone who has an account in the Debian LDAP account directory with the group "Debian" and where the account isn't marked as disabled. The welcome message sent to new members details most of the privileges of being a Debian member, in addition members can create debian.net subdomains and vote in Debian Project Leader elections and General Resolutions. Many Debian members also have the privilege of uploading packages to the Debian archive. https://salsa.debian.org/dsa-team/mirror/userdir-ldap/blob/master/templates/welcome-message-Debian https://wiki.debian.org/MemberBenefits > From what it seems by going through the wiki.debian.org is that debian > developer is a core developer in debian. It depends on what you mean by "core" but we have had important developers in the past who were not Debian members, for example some apt developers were not members for years. > Now what I dont understand is why debian doesnt call its developers as > "debian core"/"debian core developer", instead refers them as > debian-developers. I found that strange as the other projects call "core/core > developer" instead of just "developer". I assume that this is for historical reasons and it was an early decision that made sense at the time since probably all Debian members were developers. That hasn't been true for a long time, even before the 2010 GR that explicitly welcomed and provided standard paths to membership for contributors who aren't developing code or maintaining packages. https://www.debian.org/vote/2010/vote_002 > Should we have DEP or something of that sort to change it "core"/"core > developer"? Personally I prefer the terms "Debian member" and "Debian contributor". -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
Le mardi 24 décembre 2019 à 17:54:38-0500, Paul R. Tagliamonte a écrit : > I'm not joking Daniel. We've met before. We all care for you. Please get help. > > http://www.health.vic.gov.au/mentalhealthservices/ > > My prayers are with you over the holidays. I know it can be tough. Please > spend > time with your family and relax. > > Happy holidays, +1. Get well soon, Daniel. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
I'm not joking Daniel. We've met before. We all care for you. Please get help. http://www.health.vic.gov.au/mentalhealthservices/ My prayers are with you over the holidays. I know it can be tough. Please spend time with your family and relax. Happy holidays, Paul On Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 5:30 PM Santa Claus wrote: > > why do some people have a vendetta against this volunteer? > > speak behind his back at Christmas. charming. you prove the point about > bullying in this great 'community' here > > > De : Paul R. Tagliamonte > À : debian-project@lists.debian.org > Sujet : Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks > Date : 24/12/2019 22:02:43 Europe/Paris > Copie à : debian-project@lists.debian.org > > Has anyone who's friends with pocock encouraged him to get help? > > Very sad and disturbed by all of his behavior. I very much hope he gets > the help he needs and gets well soon. > > Paul > > > On Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 6:55 AM Santa Claus wrote: > >> You can't polish a turd >> >> No matter how hard you try, you can't conduct a bullying experiment on >> volunteers for over a year and claim you are making the community better. >> >> A turd is still a turd and bullying is still bullying, no matter what the >> cabal calls it or what stories they make up to justify it. >> >> Merry Christmas >> >> Download debian-private today thanks to IPFS >> >> https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmNgEAYhpb3djgmZWcdNM2jN3epDmfGym89U41Jt2zr9tL >> >> >>
Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
why do some people have a vendetta against this volunteer? speak behind his back at Christmas. charming. you prove the point about bullying in this great 'community' here De : Paul R. Tagliamonte À : debian-project@lists.debian.org Sujet : Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks Date : 24/12/2019 22:02:43 Europe/Paris Copie à : debian-project@lists.debian.org Has anyone who's friends with pocock encouraged him to get help? Very sad and disturbed by all of his behavior. I very much hope he gets the help he needs and gets well soon. Paul On Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 6:55 AM Santa Claus wrote: You can't polish a turd No matter how hard you try, you can't conduct a bullying experiment on volunteers for over a year and claim you are making the community better. A turd is still a turd and bullying is still bullying, no matter what the cabal calls it or what stories they make up to justify it. Merry Christmas Download debian-private today thanks to IPFS https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmNgEAYhpb3djgmZWcdNM2jN3epDmfGym89U41Jt2zr9tL
Re: I get to hope
Quite simply i can't see why we can't all work and play nice togeather. It appears some of us need to follow some basic rules... 1. In ALL interactions with someone, you should treat them both with respect AND treat them as you would wish them to treat you and others. If you don't know how someone wants to be addressed then look at how they refer to themselves. 2. If you don't feel able to treat people with respect or in a civil way dont interact with them at all. 3. As, if or when someone breaks rule 1 call them out on it but still be respectful to them (take the higher ground). 4. If they fail to stop behaving in a distespectful manor report it but do not continue to interact with that person. If this interaction is in anything other than a direct 1 to 1 conversation copy your complaint to the channel and ask to be invited back when they have left, repented or removed. On 24 December 2019 18:18:25 GMT, Sam Hartman wrote: >> "gagz" == gagz writes: > >gagz> sam: >>> I personally hope that we choose to respect people always--even >>> when they do not respect us in return. > >gagz> If you also mean "we choose to always respect people, even >gagz> when they did not respect us before", then take a punch in >gagz> your face 50 times a day and try to gently ask for help. You >gagz> will scream, I would bet! > >When you say that you cannot bring respect to people who have been >violent to you, I understand. >I'm not talking about what *you should do*. >And I understand that bringing that respect is almost impossible if you >haven't made it a significant aspect of your life to do the work to >provide that sort of respect. >Even if you have it's really difficult and you will sometimes fail. > >But when you tell me that *i do not get to hope for that*--when you >presume that I don't know how hard it is, you go too far. >That is an attack on my identity that I feel more strongly than an >attack on me because I'm blind or queer. >I know; I've experienced all of the above. >I do not presume to know what it is like living in your skin; I ask >that >you extend me the same. > >More than anything else, I want--I hope for--a world of compassion. >It's something thatI've spent years of my life on. >It's something that I've taken religious vows to support. >And no it is not easy. >And no I don't expect others to be able to do that, and I understand >(although sometimes disagree) when they do not. > >BUT I GET TO HOPE AND DREAM FOR the WORLD IN WHICH I WISH TO LIVE. >And I am still a supporter of your humanity, your journey even when I >hope for a kind of compassion that you (and sometimes I) are unable or >unwilling to deliver. >Even if you don't share my hope. > >I do not turn my hopes into expectations for you. My hopes do >influence >how I think about some things in Debian. I do hope we find more >compassion. I do hope that we find ways of deescalating conflict. We >must not compromise on treating people with dignity and respect >regardless of how they identify themselves. We cannot compromise with >people who would deny that basic humanity. > >But yes, when people are exposed to violence, they are going to lash >out >like Tina did. I get that. >And to respect Tina and your humanity (and everyone else walking a >similar path), we need to listen to you when you lash out. We need to >make sure that civility does not become a tool to trample dignity. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
Has anyone who's friends with pocock encouraged him to get help? Very sad and disturbed by all of his behavior. I very much hope he gets the help he needs and gets well soon. Paul On Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 6:55 AM Santa Claus wrote: > You can't polish a turd > > No matter how hard you try, you can't conduct a bullying experiment on > volunteers for over a year and claim you are making the community better. > > A turd is still a turd and bullying is still bullying, no matter what the > cabal calls it or what stories they make up to justify it. > > Merry Christmas > > Download debian-private today thanks to IPFS > > https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmNgEAYhpb3djgmZWcdNM2jN3epDmfGym89U41Jt2zr9tL > > >
Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
thanks for sharing Christmas love Message d'origine > De : Ondřej Surý > À : Santa Claus > Sujet : Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks > Date : 24/12/2019 14:08:41 Europe/Paris > Copie à : debian-project@lists.debian.org > > Oh, just fuck off. > > Merry Christmas to everyone else. > -- > Ondřej Surý > > > On 24 Dec 2019, at 12:55, Santa Claus wrote: > > > > You can't polish a turd > > > > No matter how hard you try, you can't conduct a bullying experiment on > volunteers for over a year and claim you are making the community better. > > > > A turd is still a turd and bullying is still bullying, no matter what the > cabal calls it or what stories they make up to justify it. > > > > Merry Christmas > > > > Download debian-private today thanks to IPFS > > > > https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmNgEAYhpb3djgmZWcdNM2jN3epDmfGym89U41Jt2zr9tL > > > > > >
I get to hope
> "gagz" == gagz writes: gagz> sam: >> I personally hope that we choose to respect people always--even >> when they do not respect us in return. gagz> If you also mean "we choose to always respect people, even gagz> when they did not respect us before", then take a punch in gagz> your face 50 times a day and try to gently ask for help. You gagz> will scream, I would bet! When you say that you cannot bring respect to people who have been violent to you, I understand. I'm not talking about what *you should do*. And I understand that bringing that respect is almost impossible if you haven't made it a significant aspect of your life to do the work to provide that sort of respect. Even if you have it's really difficult and you will sometimes fail. But when you tell me that *i do not get to hope for that*--when you presume that I don't know how hard it is, you go too far. That is an attack on my identity that I feel more strongly than an attack on me because I'm blind or queer. I know; I've experienced all of the above. I do not presume to know what it is like living in your skin; I ask that you extend me the same. More than anything else, I want--I hope for--a world of compassion. It's something thatI've spent years of my life on. It's something that I've taken religious vows to support. And no it is not easy. And no I don't expect others to be able to do that, and I understand (although sometimes disagree) when they do not. BUT I GET TO HOPE AND DREAM FOR the WORLD IN WHICH I WISH TO LIVE. And I am still a supporter of your humanity, your journey even when I hope for a kind of compassion that you (and sometimes I) are unable or unwilling to deliver. Even if you don't share my hope. I do not turn my hopes into expectations for you. My hopes do influence how I think about some things in Debian. I do hope we find more compassion. I do hope that we find ways of deescalating conflict. We must not compromise on treating people with dignity and respect regardless of how they identify themselves. We cannot compromise with people who would deny that basic humanity. But yes, when people are exposed to violence, they are going to lash out like Tina did. I get that. And to respect Tina and your humanity (and everyone else walking a similar path), we need to listen to you when you lash out. We need to make sure that civility does not become a tool to trample dignity.
Re: Do we still value contributions?
On Tue, Dec 24 2019, Scott Kitterman wrote: > On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 10:51:04 AM EST John Goerzen wrote: > ... >> pygopherd was removed from testing. That makes sense. But also from >> sid, hours after I replied to the bug about this explaining that I was >> actively working on a port and asking it not to be removed. It was >> anyway. That doesn't make sense. My question now is: is it worth >> bothering to finish the port? I honestly don't know the answer to that. >> The only reason I was porting it was for Debian. It will now have to go >> through NEW again, and it appears that getting things out of NEW is iffy >> at best. > ... > > To follow up on this one point: > > That was me. I saw your bug comment, but had forgotten about it when > processing removals several hours later. In the future, please add a > moreinfo > tag to the rm bug if it should not be actioned. > > In cases like this where I inadvertently removed something that should have > been retained, I'm happy to give it a quick review in New. When you have > your > python3 port ready, please ping me in #debian-ftp and I'll have a look. > Please don't let this case dampen your enthusiasm for working on > Debian. Thank you, Scott! I really appreciate it! > More generally, New is being processed as fast as it can given available > volunteer time. Any delays are not reflective of a lack of value placed on > people's contributions. Again I should clarify: I wasn't trying to say it was the FTP team to blame at all. But as a project, we need to take this more seriously and think about ways we might be able to help you folks out, spread to load, or change some of our processes. John
Re: Do we still value contributions?
On Tue, Dec 24 2019, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > Le mardi 24 décembre 2019 à 09:51:04-0600, John Goerzen a écrit: >> Hi, >> >> I mean this post as a challenge, but not as blame. I know many teams do >> hard work that can be thankless, and my intent is not to blame them, but >> to challenge us as a project to question our processes and attitudes. > > NEW is processed by hand by the FTP Team. > > The FTP Team is, as any other part of the project, constituted of > volunteers who do the job on their free time. > > Maybe you should keep that in mind. Hi Pierre-Elliot, I fully agree, and in fact began my message with that acknowledgment. Part of what I'm trying to raise is whether these processes are sustainable. I think the answer right now is no. What are the answers? They probably aren't easy; the review that is done for things in NEW is important for the project from a legal and quality perspective. Can we automate it more? Can we expand the set of people that do reviews? (For instance, have more people able to do licensing reviews or quality reviews even if they aren't able to do the other things the FTP team does.) Is there a more PR-like process we could adopt (which might apply not just to NEW but also ongoing updates, which are often unreviewed)? Or are we as a project at a point where we can no longer maintain these same up-front checks as we used to? I am fully aware that we can't ask people doing a thankless job to "just do more". That won't work and is not what I was trying to suggest. But at the same time, I feel that the project as a whole isn't really taking this problem very seriously. John
Re: Do we still value contributions?
Le mardi 24 décembre 2019 à 09:51:04-0600, John Goerzen a écrit : > Hi, > > I mean this post as a challenge, but not as blame. I know many teams do > hard work that can be thankless, and my intent is not to blame them, but > to challenge us as a project to question our processes and attitudes. > > Here's what I mean: > > On October 12, I uploaded glktermw, a new package. On October 19, I > uploaded nncp, also a new package. I have heard nothing at all about > either of them since, they remain in the NEW queue but even inquiries on > this have yielded nothing. In that time, NNCP has had several updates > and I packaged one of them, but finally I stopped bothering; I mean, if > it's just going to sit in NEW -- and perhaps even reduce the importance > of processing it (the NEW page now shows its age at 3 weeks, which is > the age of the second upload, not the original one) -- why should I? > > Strangely, I also uploaded a package on October 12, glulxe. It was > accepted a month later, despite depending on glktermw, which was and is > still in NEW. > > This situation makes me wonder: is it worth it putting in the effort to > package things up for Debian? At the moment, it seems the answer is no. NEW is processed by hand by the FTP Team. The FTP Team is, as any other part of the project, constituted of volunteers who do the job on their free time. Maybe you should keep that in mind. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Do we still value contributions?
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 10:51:04 AM EST John Goerzen wrote: ... > pygopherd was removed from testing. That makes sense. But also from > sid, hours after I replied to the bug about this explaining that I was > actively working on a port and asking it not to be removed. It was > anyway. That doesn't make sense. My question now is: is it worth > bothering to finish the port? I honestly don't know the answer to that. > The only reason I was porting it was for Debian. It will now have to go > through NEW again, and it appears that getting things out of NEW is iffy > at best. ... To follow up on this one point: That was me. I saw your bug comment, but had forgotten about it when processing removals several hours later. In the future, please add a moreinfo tag to the rm bug if it should not be actioned. In cases like this where I inadvertently removed something that should have been retained, I'm happy to give it a quick review in New. When you have your python3 port ready, please ping me in #debian-ftp and I'll have a look. Please don't let this case dampen your enthusiasm for working on Debian. More generally, New is being processed as fast as it can given available volunteer time. Any delays are not reflective of a lack of value placed on people's contributions. Scott K signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Do we still value contributions?
Hi, I mean this post as a challenge, but not as blame. I know many teams do hard work that can be thankless, and my intent is not to blame them, but to challenge us as a project to question our processes and attitudes. Here's what I mean: On October 12, I uploaded glktermw, a new package. On October 19, I uploaded nncp, also a new package. I have heard nothing at all about either of them since, they remain in the NEW queue but even inquiries on this have yielded nothing. In that time, NNCP has had several updates and I packaged one of them, but finally I stopped bothering; I mean, if it's just going to sit in NEW -- and perhaps even reduce the importance of processing it (the NEW page now shows its age at 3 weeks, which is the age of the second upload, not the original one) -- why should I? Strangely, I also uploaded a package on October 12, glulxe. It was accepted a month later, despite depending on glktermw, which was and is still in NEW. This situation makes me wonder: is it worth it putting in the effort to package things up for Debian? At the moment, it seems the answer is no. Let me add on to that. 17 years ago, I wrote pygopherd. It has been in Debian since then. It's written in Python. The Python 2 removal process, of course, is happening. (There is a maintained branch of Python 2 out there, which makes this annoying, but I'm not volunteering to maintain it, so I don't think I can complain.) I have been actively working on porting pygopherd to python 3, but this process is extremely difficult. 2to3 left many, many open issues. Python 3's improper filename handling left more, and changes to standard libraries such as zipfile that removed features that the code relied upon introduce yet more. I am close, but the holidays are busy and I haven't had time to hack on it. pygopherd was removed from testing. That makes sense. But also from sid, hours after I replied to the bug about this explaining that I was actively working on a port and asking it not to be removed. It was anyway. That doesn't make sense. My question now is: is it worth bothering to finish the port? I honestly don't know the answer to that. The only reason I was porting it was for Debian. It will now have to go through NEW again, and it appears that getting things out of NEW is iffy at best. I also maintain some other Python programs which should be much easier to port once pygopherd is done. I don't know what's going on with NEW. Perhaps we as a project need to reconsider how it works. Perhaps there are ways to improve communication and visibility. At the moment, as far as I'm concerned, NEW is a powerful disincentive to contribute to and participate in Debian. Along the same lines, removing working software from sid (while various other non-working software remains there) is also a disincentive to contributing to Debian. My challenge to the project is to have some empathy for others. Are these processes setting people up to succeed in producing a high-quality distribution? Or are we erecting barriers in the way of this? There have been a number of departures from Debian lately, saying something along the lines of "it's not fun anymore." I am not a departure. I have been a Debian Developer for something like 23 years and still am. The flamewars are regrettable and sad, but don't represent a decline over where we were 23 years ago. The bureaucratic silence, however, is different. It really has me questioning whether contributing to Debian is still worth it. John [1] https://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Hi Gagz, On 21 December 2019 16:41:03 GMT-03:00, gagz wrote: >I am myself a transwomen, and reading tina's post made me angry and sad >at the debian community. It also revived my never ending hopeless wish >to see things change. Tina you have my full (but sadly pretty much >useless) support. Thanks! It matters to know that there are more trans folk around, and to support each other. >I have seen many messages stating that one should always respect the >CoC >when answering hate messages such as the ones from norbert and gerardo. >I want to say that this is *bullshit*. This is bullshit because the >violence *has been there already*, when people have refused to respect >genders and names other people use. Exactly. > And I can assure you, I would >prefer >to be told 1000 times that i'm a hasshole than 10 times misgendered or >deadnamed. There is just no way to compare a violence where people feel >hurt because of an insult with a violence where people feel like they >don't have the f*ckin right to exist and have a word to say about >*their >own identity*. Plus that violence is a systemic violence. It doens't >only come from individuals, it comes from the media, the police, the >state, at school, at work, at home, in the music, in the movies, in >front of big groups or with our best friends. +1000 >So, please stop calling such nice answers "violent". If I wanted to be >violent against transphobic people I'd just go find them and break >their >knees with a baseball bat. That would be kind of violent I reckon. My feelings exactly. This graffito sums it up well https://tiny.cc/transphobes >My solidarity goes to women, transgenders, non-binary folks, faggots, >dykes, people of color, lesbians, gays, people with different >abilities, >the fat, the youngests, the oldests, the weirdoes, the freaks, the ones >that have died for their survivance, the ones who are still alive and >fighting. Thanks for speaking up! <3 Tina.
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Hi Nikolaus, On 23/12/2019 17:43, Nikolaus Rath wrote: > I'm honestly not sure what you mean with in "take risks and put your > body and privilege in the front line" in this context though. The only > thing I can think of is to write an email like this (which I haven't > done so far because I wanted to avoid putting oil on the fire, but I > understand now that this wasn't the right reaction). Is there anything > else people like me could do in this specific situation? I mean not letting it pass and "not feeding the troll", downright denouncing hate speech wherever it appears, in the strongest terms. Sometimes that means calling people names or being aggressive, risking a mailing list ban, a punch in the street, losing friends. That is what I've meant. -- Martina Ferrari (Tina)
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
The problem here is there were several responses telling Gerardo that his email was totally unacceptable in Debian and we don’t share his views, but the format of the media (mailing list) doesn’t allow a simple way to express +1 without generating thousands and thousands of emails. Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý > On 23 Dec 2019, at 22:13, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > And having seen almost no one telling Geraldo such a thing, I find it > disturbing to see that much people getting out of the woods to suddenly > say that "oh well, equality is mandatory".
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Hello, Charles Plessy: > […] >> politely and patiently educate the privileged ones. > > Just a side comment: at the moment in France "priviledged ones" is a > derogatory term to fingerpoint people who use their right to go on > strike. So please do not be surprised if at least some French people > dislike being told that they are priviledged. (Not to mention the heads > of priviledged people cut off a couple hundred years ago.) I think that > everything you rightly say about how hard it is to understand how other > suffer if we do not suffer it ourselves, can be written as effectively > without categorizing others as "priviledged". Well, "being privileged" is always relative to others. In the context of this thread, the privileged are the cis-gender males. That means men who were assigned male at birth. Nothing to do with kings or the one in the street. Most people have privileges compared to others. There is no binary way to sort the privileged ones on one side and the oppressed ones on the other side.
Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
Oh, just fuck off. Merry Christmas to everyone else. -- Ondřej Surý > On 24 Dec 2019, at 12:55, Santa Claus wrote: > > You can't polish a turd > > No matter how hard you try, you can't conduct a bullying experiment on > volunteers for over a year and claim you are making the community better. > > A turd is still a turd and bullying is still bullying, no matter what the > cabal calls it or what stories they make up to justify it. > > Merry Christmas > > Download debian-private today thanks to IPFS > > https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmNgEAYhpb3djgmZWcdNM2jN3epDmfGym89U41Jt2zr9tL > >
Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
You can't polish a turd No matter how hard you try, you can't conduct a bullying experiment on volunteers for over a year and claim you are making the community better. A turd is still a turd and bullying is still bullying, no matter what the cabal calls it or what stories they make up to justify it. Merry Christmas Download debian-private today thanks to IPFS https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmNgEAYhpb3djgmZWcdNM2jN3epDmfGym89U41Jt2zr9tL
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Hi Iustin, Am 23.12.19 um 17:43 schrieb Iustin Pop: > If so, that also troubles me somewhat. What Pierre-Elliott said in a > follow-up email (that neither the original email nor Tina's reply were > appropriate) is, IMO, how "equality for everyone in Debian" should be, > not that "oh, CoC is flexible depending on which group you belong to". > > Of course, I belong to a priviledged group, so I am biased here. But I > would hope that equality starts with at least _intending_ to apply the > rules equaly. Maybe this article and images therein help you understand the (needed) difference between equality and equity: https://uxdesign.cc/5-the-difference-between-equality-and-equity-in-design-d07ed56ad778 So long, Rhonda
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019, Sam Hartman wrote: > > "Pierre-Elliott" == Pierre-Elliott Bécue writes: > > Pierre-Elliott> And having seen almost no one telling Geraldo such a > Pierre-Elliott> thing, I find it disturbing to see that much people > > I'm writing this to make it clear that Geraldo's message was not okay. > One of the messages Geraldo did get was an official statement from the > DPL that his approach was not welcome in Debian. > He indicated he was leaving our community as a result. > Perhaps he didn't get a lot of messages, but that statement and the > result that he left are important to consider. He also got a listmaster mail. Alex - Debian Listmaster
