Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Tobias Augspurger]

> Where will the Coinbase balance go if someone doesn't sign up for 

   their account? 



It will go back into the sending wallet. This is also visible in the 
transaction history to consider for the future.



> This is going to spam a lot of people who don't have a Coinbase 

   account and don't want one. How are you planning on mitigating this? 



We are examining various measures here.



1. First of all these emails of course have an unsubscribe button. 



2. We are considering to send only one email per user. Since LibreSelery has 
the complete transaction history with all emails already used there is this 
possibility. With the skip_notification we can disable all the following 
emails. As soon as transactions come back after 30 days we can exclude the 
following transactions completely.



3. A CI scheduler gives us also the option to run LibreSelery once per month. 
In this way the number of emails can be reduced in general. I think that this 
option could be the best for most projects. 

It would also increase the total amount that is being sent out what makes the 
email more interesting. 




> BTW, the way Debian uses git on salsa for many teams (some just import 

  new upstream release tarballs into git rather than pulling upstream 

  git commits) means that funding would go to the Debian packagers 

  rather than the upstream developers who wrote the code, which seems 

  like the wrong thing to do. 



I'm just a user of Debian and do not know your workflow in development. 
However, due to its free characteristics, it can be adapted to different 
wishes. 

As long as these are technically possible and comply with the guidelines, we 
will be happy to help you adapt LibreSelery to different needs: 

https://github.com/protontypes/libreselery/wiki/Contribution-Guide

We also want to encourage other communities to create their own forks to 
experiment with this concept. 



 On Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:11:36 +0200 Paul Wise  
wrote 



On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:31 PM Tobias Augspurger wrote: 
 
> 5. After the split is done, we distribute the money to the email address via 
> the Coinbase API. You can define a custom note that will be attached to the 
> Coinbase email. If the user does not have a Coinbase account to that email 
> address, the amount will be deposited there for 30 days, informed by email 
> about that and can withdraw the amount by opening the account. 
 
This is going to spam a lot of people who don't have a Coinbase 
account and don't want one. How are you planning on mitigating this? 
Where will the coinbase balance go if someone doesn't sign up for 
their account? 
 
BTW, the way Debian uses git on salsa for many teams (some just import 
new upstream release tarballs into git rather than pulling upstream 
git commits) means that funding would go to the Debian packagers 
rather than the upstream developers who wrote the code, which seems 
like the wrong thing to do. 
 
-- 
bye, 
pabs 
 
https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise 
 








Tobias Augspurger 


Co-Founder


Mobile +4917643474156


http://protontypes.eu

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:31 PM Tobias Augspurger wrote:

> 5. After the split is done, we distribute the money to the email address via 
> the Coinbase API. You can define a custom note that will be attached to the 
> Coinbase email. If the user does not have a Coinbase account to that email 
> address, the amount will be deposited there for 30 days, informed by email 
> about that and can withdraw the amount by opening the account.

This is going to spam a lot of people who don't have a Coinbase
account and don't want one. How are you planning on mitigating this?
Where will the coinbase balance go if someone doesn't sign up for
their account?

BTW, the way Debian uses git on salsa for many teams (some just import
new upstream release tarballs into git rather than pulling upstream
git commits) means that funding would go to the Debian packagers
rather than the upstream developers who wrote the code, which seems
like the wrong thing to do.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Tobias Augspurger]

Here is the rough concept of LibreSelery:



1. LibreSelery is a AGPL licenced command line tool that takes a git folder as 
an argument.

2. It collects all email addresses of the main project and all dependencies 
that can be resolved from https://libraries.io/ API. In this way, most package 
systems are supported.

We also provide a custom yaml file to add dependencies like Dockers or Debian 
to your project, which we can't detect simply by automatic scanning of the 
dependencies. 

3. The email addresses of contributors are collected from the git platform user 
profiles. If no public email is provided, no transaction for that user will be 
considered. 

4. Based on a contribution metric, funding is distributed among the 
contributors. The metric can be extended and configured by individual projects. 
Currently, activity and minimum contribution are considered. In our next 
version, we will extend the possible metric configuration based on code data 
and project data. In this way, the number of solved problems, merged pull 
requests, lines of code or the number of commits can be considered. Based on 
the weight value different kinds of contribution can be considered more than 
others. As all transactions are automatically made public, we hope that the 
Communities will adapt the weights and metrics to their needs. 

5. After the split is done, we distribute the money to the email address via 
the Coinbase API. You can define a custom note that will be attached to the 
Coinbase email. If the user does not have a Coinbase account to that email 
address, the amount will be deposited there for 30 days, informed by email 
about that and can withdraw the amount by opening the account.



LibreSelery can be run manually from the command line, but the main purpose is 
to integrate it into a CI pipeline. In this way, the funding is distributed 
with each push to the master or new version that is made. 



In this way, the financing of your project becomes completely transparent, as 
we push the visualization of the project transactions and the donation button 
into the wiki of the target project. In the CI log file all details of each 
individual run are visible. Storing the Coinbase tokens and git tokens in your 
CI secrets is also a good way to protect them from my experiences. 

Here the CI template:

https://github.com/protontypes/SeleryAction



We also have a very simple simulation mode to check how a funding distribution 
would look like in a single run. I hope we can extend the simulation to show 
what the distribution would have looked like based on the existing git history.





 On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 15:54:26 +0200 Jonas Smedegaard  
wrote 



Quoting Jonathan Carter (2020-10-12 15:19:22) 
> Maybe Tobias can give us a more complete description on how 
> LibreSelery would work. 
 
Probably he can, yes.  Is he subscribed here? 
 
I ask because a) you didn't cc him, and b) the original message was 
proxied through you. 
 
 
 - Jonas 
 
-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt 
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ 
 
 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private







Tobias Augspurger 


Co-Founder


Mobile +4917643474156


http://protontypes.eu

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Le lundi 12 octobre 2020 à 16:05:30+0200, Tobias Augspurger a écrit :
> I absolutely understand your fears. Whether a project wants to finance itself
> through donations and whether these are only used for central infrastructure
> depends centrally on the type of project and community. Of course, it changes
> the motivation of the people if the amounts distributed become larger. We take
> this into account right from the start of the project:
> https://github.com/protontypes/LibreSelery/wiki/
> Transparent-Funding-of-Git-Based-Projects#human
> 
> LibreSelery should be seen as an alternative to Tidelift or GitHub sponsors.
> LibreSelery gives a FLOSS community the opportunity to distribute possible
> funds without further middlemen.  We are convinced that funding within open
> source is ideally distributed via open-source software itself. However, as the
> commercialization and financing of open source projects is increasing, we
> wanted to present a concept that is more adaptable to different community
> requirements. In this way, it can be decided in a public process on the basis
> of a free tool how this is done.

I'm not against the idea at all, it's rather the opposite. But I think
it is not suit for the Debian Project as it is for now. Some people have
the luxury of being paid by their employeer to do Debian Stuff, others
do freelance for people using Debian systems, but in both cases, the
project has no ties to their funding, it's just people using their
status in their professional environment.

Here, the idea is to either have the project advertise (either passively
or actively) to fund people working on some projects, or to have it get
some developers funded and others none. This is a right turn I'd rather
not see in Debian.

That being said, if it is for experimentation purposes, maybe we could
help, but that'd be up to our salsa team.

So, all in all, I'm not against your project, but not keen on the idea
of having it implemented in Debian.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.


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Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Tobias Augspurger]

I absolutely understand your fears. Whether a project wants to finance itself 
through donations and whether these are only used for central infrastructure 
depends centrally on the type of project and community. Of course, it changes 
the motivation of the people if the amounts distributed become larger. We take 
this into account right from the start of the project:

https://github.com/protontypes/LibreSelery/wiki/Transparent-Funding-of-Git-Based-Projects#human



LibreSelery should be seen as an alternative to Tidelift or GitHub sponsors. 
LibreSelery gives a FLOSS community the opportunity to distribute possible 
funds without further middlemen.  We are convinced that funding within open 
source is ideally distributed via open-source software itself. However, as the 
commercialization and financing of open source projects is increasing, we 
wanted to present a concept  that is more adaptable to different community 
requirements. In this way, it can be decided in a public process on the basis 
of a free tool how this is done.





 On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:56:52 +0200 Pierre-Elliott Bécue  
wrote 



Le lundi 12 octobre 2020 à 13:43:49+0200, Jonathan Carter a écrit : 
> Hi Debianites, Tobias from protontypes.eu asked that I forward this 
> message along. From what I understand, they want to make it easier to 
> fund individuals who work on free software. 
> 
> He also confirmed that they're working on integrating their system with 
> GitLab, which needed some more work because it didn't have the "donate" 
> framework that GitHub uses. 
> 
> If you have any questions, you can follow up here, I told them that they 
> can subscribe to the list to follow up. 
 
So, if I understand well, the idea is to implement a way to have a 
"donate" button on salsa which would rely on their work in background to 
loadbalance the share between developers of a specific project? 
 
If so, then I feel bad about this idea. Sure, the people paying wouldn't 
be the project and hence its philosophy wouldn't be compromised in its 
core, but still we would start advertising for payment, which is a huge 
step in a way I fear the outcome. 
 
Cheers, 
 
-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue 
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. 








Tobias Augspurger 


Co-Founder


Mobile +4917643474156


http://protontypes.eu

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Jonas

On 2020/10/12 15:54, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> Maybe Tobias can give us a more complete description on how 
>> LibreSelery would work.
>
> Probably he can, yes.  Is he subscribed here?

Yes, he subscribed this afternoon.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Jonathan Carter (2020-10-12 15:19:22)
> Maybe Tobias can give us a more complete description on how 
> LibreSelery would work.

Probably he can, yes.  Is he subscribed here?

I ask because a) you didn't cc him, and b) the original message was 
proxied through you.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/10/12 14:56, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> So, if I understand well, the idea is to implement a way to have a
> "donate" button on salsa which would rely on their work in background to
> loadbalance the share between developers of a specific project?
> 
> If so, then I feel bad about this idea. Sure, the people paying wouldn't
> be the project and hence its philosophy wouldn't be compromised in its
> core, but still we would start advertising for payment, which is a huge
> step in a way I fear the outcome.

>From what I understand, part of their plans is to implement that for
GitLab. I agree that we might not want to enable something like that on
Salsa, I suppose that would depend on exact details (like, if it's just
something in an API as apposed to having donate button scattered all
over, then I don't think it's intrusive at all).

Maybe Tobias can give us a more complete description on how LibreSelery
would work.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Le lundi 12 octobre 2020 à 13:43:49+0200, Jonathan Carter a écrit :
> Hi Debianites, Tobias from protontypes.eu asked that I forward this
> message along. From what I understand, they want to make it easier to
> fund individuals who work on free software.
> 
> He also confirmed that they're working on integrating their system with
> GitLab, which needed some more work because it didn't have the "donate"
> framework that GitHub uses.
> 
> If you have any questions, you can follow up here, I told them that they
> can subscribe to the list to follow up.

So, if I understand well, the idea is to implement a way to have a
"donate" button on salsa which would rely on their work in background to
loadbalance the share between developers of a specific project?

If so, then I feel bad about this idea. Sure, the people paying wouldn't
be the project and hence its philosophy wouldn't be compromised in its
core, but still we would start advertising for payment, which is a huge
step in a way I fear the outcome.

Cheers,

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Debianites, Tobias from protontypes.eu asked that I forward this
message along. From what I understand, they want to make it easier to
fund individuals who work on free software.

He also confirmed that they're working on integrating their system with
GitLab, which needed some more work because it didn't have the "donate"
framework that GitHub uses.

If you have any questions, you can follow up here, I told them that they
can subscribe to the list to follow up.

-Jonathan

On 2020/09/24 19:35, Tobias Augspurger wrote:
> We are a group of motivated developers that created a new concept for
> funding distribution in FOSS without launching another platform.
> LibreSelery is a AGPL licensed tool that allows you to create
> customized, transparent, independent, and automated funding of FOSS
> projects.
> After our launch 2 weeks ago we are looking for feedback and early
> adopts in the community.
> 
> I have been using many Debian technologies and would like to show you
> how we distribute my donation of 1000€ on a Debian project that is
> mirrored on Github. 
> LibreSelery also allows you to include the contributors of your
> dependencies into the funding. They will receive an email from Coinbase
> with a "Thank You" note that you can define.
> This could help you to attract new developers.
> 
> At the moment we are just supporting Github but Debian would be a
> perfect partner to start with Gitlab support. Early support for Gitlab
> would also help us keep the software architecture generic.
> Do you think LibreSelery could be interesting for Debian?
> https://github.com/protontypes/libreselery
> 
> 
> Some background information on our project and organization.
> https://protontypes.eu/blog/2020/09/02/launch-of-protontypes/
> 
> 
> Kind regards
> Tobias